00:00:00.000this is the fighter with chris sims i am chris sims i'm the alberta director for
00:00:09.600the canadian taxpayers federation folks we've got some work cut out for us because remember
00:00:16.960how the emergencies act was invoked during the trucker convoy also known as the freedom convoy
00:00:23.200Remember how people's bank accounts were frozen surrounding that time?
00:00:29.500In case you forget, take a look at this.
00:00:32.320The federal government has invoked the Emergencies Act to supplement provincial and territorial capacity to address the blockades and occupations.
00:00:44.720Information is now being shared by law enforcement with Canada's financial institutions.
00:00:51.120financial service providers have already taken action based on that information.
00:00:59.140So you're confirming that accounts have been frozen both personal and corporate but you're
00:01:03.280not releasing the information? Yeah it feels like it was yesterday and many decades ago all at once
00:01:10.820feels like a different time but we aren't in a different time we're still dealing with the
00:01:15.720ramifications of that decision. Now, very importantly, the Canadian Constitution
00:01:21.160Foundation, which is a legal advocacy group and charity, they got everything together and they
00:01:28.320fought the invocation of the Emergencies Act saying, whoa, the government overstepped its
00:01:33.660bounds here. It cannot use the so-called nuclear option on a protest that includes things like
00:01:41.320certain seizure of people's bank accounts. Hundreds of people had their bank accounts frozen
00:01:46.200as a result of this action by the government. And so the Canadian Constitution Foundation,
00:01:50.700they got things together and they fought this in court. And they've won twice, okay? They won at
00:01:58.380the federal court level and they won at the federal court of appeal, unanimously at the federal court
00:02:04.740of appeal. And that is where both layers of court said, whoa, yeah, the Trudeau government
00:02:10.960overstepped its bounds and illegally invoked the Emergencies Act and should not have frozen
00:02:20.340people's bank accounts. Now, if you're one of the few people watching who didn't agree with
00:02:25.960the Freedom Convoy and you thought the lockdowns were awesome, etc., etc., okay, you're able to
00:02:32.560think that, that's fine. The point here, folks, is that you need to be able to protest government
00:02:39.840public policy openly and noisily in order to express yourself and hold government to account.
00:02:49.620It was not so long ago in the before times, okay, before 2020, there was a huge carbon tax protest
00:02:56.060on Parliament Hill, and it was noisy, and there were trucks involved, and there were diesel fumes
00:03:00.660and all that stuff. Before that, I'm old enough to remember back on Parliament Hill when I used
00:03:05.980to work there, there was a huge protest against the invasion of Iraq back in the early 2000s.
00:03:13.400They blocked streets. They surrounded the U.S. Embassy. It was super cold. Again, they didn't
00:03:20.300invoke the Emergencies Act back then. The point here, folks, is that you need to be able to protest
00:03:27.900the government's public policies. You need to be able to do so peacefully but noisily, okay?
00:03:35.760Sometimes protests are disruptive. That's kind of the point. And so think of the things that you
00:03:41.740care about, okay, that you want to hold the government to account for. Could be anything
00:03:47.200based on your personal thoughts and your experiences. Imagine attending a protest now
00:03:54.000against government public policy on those issues and your bank account is frozen and the government
00:04:02.080then is able to make up law on the fly as it goes it doesn't need to bring it before the house of
00:04:09.000commons it does not need to go through the senate does not need to get royal assent all of those
00:04:13.440checks and balances of our parliamentary system out the window that's what happens with the
00:04:19.580Emergencies Act. It is the latest incarnation, if you're old enough to remember, of the War
00:04:25.500Measures Act. It's supposed to be a last resort, okay? A big, big deal to do that. And now we've
00:04:33.240had two courts say, yeah, the Trudeau government should not have done that. Now, so it was a huge
00:04:40.760victory, okay? At the Federal Court of Appeal, the Canadian Constitution Foundation was the lead
00:04:45.900group fighting for this, saying you cannot invoke the Emergencies Act, you cannot freeze people's
00:04:51.280bank accounts just because they're publicly protesting against the government. That's a
00:04:55.820terrible precedent to set. And both levels of court agreed with the Canadian Constitution Foundation
00:05:02.040unanimously and said the federal government overstepped the mark here. Wrong, wrong, wrong.
00:05:08.680should not do that. But you knew there was a catch here, right? On the last possible day that
00:05:15.840they were able to, within the legal window, the now Carney government, led by Prime Minister
00:05:21.460Mark Carney, has decided to appeal this to the Supreme Court of Canada. So they're going in for
00:05:29.480round three. Why did this happen? How did we get here so far? And what's going to happen next when
00:05:37.680it comes to your right to be able to protest the government? Let's find out. Joining me now is Josh
00:05:44.500DeHaas. He is with the Canadian Constitution Foundation. They are a legal advocacy group.
00:05:51.080They are fighting for your rights when it comes to things like constitutional rights and they
00:05:55.520were right at the forefront both times in court when judges ruled that the Trudeau government
00:06:02.460should not have invoked the Emergencies Act. Most recently, they just won at the Court of
00:06:08.200Appeal. If you have not yet met Josh, tune in to their podcast. It's called Not Reserving Judgment.
00:06:15.560So if you just go in, I listen on Apple. I'm sure it's available elsewhere. Tune in to Not
00:06:19.740Reserving Judgment. They do funny legal takes at the end of it. And I've never laughed at lawyers
00:06:24.720so much. Josh, first off, thank you for fighting this. We really appreciate it. Can you just give
00:06:32.440us how did we get here give us your latest victory because i know that you guys won at the federal
00:06:38.520court that's where we saw a judge mosley be very decisive in his language and then second correct
00:06:45.500me from wrong it was at the court of appeal and so because that was unanimous i thought this was
00:06:52.020over what was that victory so that victory was about a year ago where the uh the federal government
00:06:59.060asked the Federal Court of Appeal to look at Richard Mosley's decision and decide, you know,
00:07:05.700did he get this right? I mean, Judge Mosley sided with us, the CCF, on nearly every question about,
00:07:13.100you know, whether there was a national emergency and there wasn't because all that was left at
00:07:18.380that point was happening in Ottawa. Whether there was serious violence or a risk of things like
00:07:23.880terrorism, there wasn't. There were no guns found. There were no real threats of serious violence.
00:07:28.820whether uh it was wrong to freeze bank accounts without anything resembling a warrant just based
00:07:34.740on a list of people that the government was emailing around financial institutions and he
00:07:39.940agreed with us on um the fact that it was illegal to ban protests for everyone including peace
00:07:45.860people that were acting perfectly uh peacefully so we went back to federal court uh on the
00:07:52.100government's insistence and all three judges unanimously decided that mosley was right about
00:07:57.620all of those things. We were right about all of those things. The law was unlawfully invoked and
00:08:04.180it violated charter rights. And the court decided to sign this from the court, which is some say a
00:08:11.760signal of how unanimous they actually were. This is such a big deal for the four people who are
00:08:20.200watching, okay, who had a problem, I would argue, with the Freedom Convoy and the protests and
00:08:25.420who were super upset and they wanted to crack down, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:08:29.260My issue here is that, okay, you may not have agreed with this protest,
00:08:34.540but what about the next peaceful protest that's on the steps of Parliament Hill
00:08:41.940What if it's for environmental issues?
00:08:43.760Like name something that is a public policy that you disagree with
00:08:49.000and you're going to have a noisy but disruptive but peaceful protest
00:08:52.400on the steps, again, of Parliament, I will point out, because I worked there. It's kind of built
00:08:56.420for that. And then you have something like the Emergencies Act. And then you have something like
00:09:02.340hundreds of people having their bank accounts frozen. Talk about sending a chill down the spine
00:09:08.860of people being able to voice their concerns and ultimately hold their government to account,
00:09:14.000which is why the Taxpayers Federation were like, no, you can't crack down on people like this.
00:09:20.040And especially with the freezing of the bank accounts, can you describe for our listeners and viewers what the Emergencies Act is and what it's meant to do, what it's intended to do?
00:09:32.620Yeah, this is really important because I think a lot of people didn't think it was a big deal to invoke this act.
00:09:38.780But the Emergencies Act is essentially the nuclear option.
00:09:41.800It is a really big deal. It is a piece of legislation that is reserved for things like wars or very serious epidemics, epidemics more serious than COVID since it wasn't even used during that or apprehended insurrections and, you know, threats of terrorism.
00:09:58.640and it's only supposed to be used in those extreme situations and that's because in the past
00:10:06.020governments have abused their power to suspend civil liberties and in the heat of the moment
00:10:11.260they get a lot of support from Canadians for suspending rights of you know some supposedly
00:10:16.100scary group but then later on people realize what actually happened and what the government did
00:10:21.080using this emergencies act that allows them to create new laws and suspend civil liberties
00:10:26.680for example during the second world war they used it against japanese canadians to take their
00:10:32.460property just take their property away from them and put them in internment camps forced forcing
00:10:38.240them to work in the middle of uh rural like cold british columbia mountains because they happen to
00:10:44.340be japanese canadian these are people who were born in canada and were loyal to canada but because
00:10:49.660it was the second world war and japanese had attacked the united states um canadians thought
00:10:56.120this was okay in the heat of the moment and a few years later realized what they had done to their
00:11:00.500fellow Canadians. 1970 with the crisis in Quebec and there was a real crisis right? Yeah the FOQ
00:11:11.200crisis there was a real crisis there there was the FOQ were terrorists and they had done bombings
00:11:17.140they had kidnapped they had killed one person but what Pierre Trudeau then did was round up hundreds
00:11:24.300of members of the opposition hold them without access to habeas corpus without the ability to
00:11:31.120go before a judge and challenge their particular detentions using this emergencies act and and
00:11:37.400you know he did this hundreds of people the FLQ at that time was a few dozen people by that point
00:11:42.200so hundreds of people that were you know innocent had their rights trampled and that's what happened
00:11:47.020again here because this act lets governments so instead of parliament you know making a carefully
00:11:53.240considered law, it lets the Prime Minister essentially create new laws that violate rights
00:11:58.600on the fly. And that simply did not need to happen with the Freedom Convoy. There was no
00:12:03.680threat of serious violence. And we had four out of four federal judges say that. And now the
00:12:09.180federal government, Mark Carney, is trying again. I wanted to stress to your point, and my colleague
00:12:16.420Franco Teresano interviewed your colleague about this, Christine Van Dyne, a few months ago.
00:12:21.760And you bring up the what was then called the War Measures Act.
00:12:25.180And any of us who went through social studies in school or has read a few history books kind of understands what was going on with the FLQ back in that day.
00:12:33.120But even so, what you're saying is and what I remember from the early 80s is that even though they literally found one of the hostages in the back of a trunk who was no longer with us, like it was a serious situation.
00:12:45.700even then they had to go back and say whoa we need to revise this we need some checks and balances
00:12:52.460there need to be tripwires built into this law we're not going to call it the war measures act
00:12:57.300anymore we're changing it to the emergencies act there was a whole thing about invoking that law
00:13:02.480even then correct yeah so um it's it's sometimes hard for people to understand but the the reality
00:13:09.240is we have these rights like the right to be secure against unreasonable searches and seizures
00:13:14.140Because once the government has, you know, knocked down your door and entered your house and arrested you and held you for weeks at a time without, you know, without going before a judge or being able to even let your family know where you are, you can't get those things back if the government's done that to you.
00:13:33.520So we've had a system in place for hundreds of years where if the government wants to do that, they have to go to a judge and say, here's some evidence that this person is a serious risk, that they have committed a crime and show that there is some reasonable, you know, facts to support the government taking that extreme step.
00:13:52.400And, you know, the emergency act allows emergencies act allows them to suspend that kind of rights, which is what they did with the bank accounts. Normally, you would not be able to just go and freeze somebody's bank account because the government says so. But here it was the government saying banks freeze these accounts or we will fine you instead of going to a judge and saying, you know, here are some people who we think might have broken the law. Can we freeze their their bank accounts?
00:14:17.060And so, yeah, the Emergencies Act was a response to the FLQ crisis, Japanese internment, and the realization later that while there were, you know, in that case, the FLQ crisis, there were terrorists. There were very, very few of them. And most people that were caught up were innocent. So the Emergencies Act was designed to prevent that from happening again. And here it didn't prevent it, unfortunately.
00:14:39.420So we had to go to court and get the court to tell the government, knock it off. Don't do this again. And we kind of expected that the Kearney government would stand down and would agree with that and say, look, you know, we messed up here. Maybe they're not going to publicly apologize for that, but at least not challenge the federal court of appeals decision. And yet here we are on the very last day. They are saying, you know, we want we want the Supreme Court to look at this question again.
00:15:07.960What surprised, it surprised me too, because I covered court most of my life when I was a journalist. And what struck me was Mosley's original language. And I'm definitely paraphrasing here. This is not word for word what the judge said.
00:15:23.820But he said something along the lines of, you know what, going into this, I kind of thought I was going to rule a certain way. But after reading argument after argument from the CCF, I've changed my mind. Again, I'm paraphrasing, but it was really critical where he just showed this balance and this reasoning of like, you know what? Yeah, they overstepped. They shouldn't have invoked the emergencies act.
00:15:49.180And then to have the Court of Appeal say, you know what, we agree with Mosley unanimously.
00:15:55.620I thought maybe this was now done and that the Kearney government, which has been inherited from the Trudeau government, they're pretty much all the same people, would stand down and not bother fighting this again.
00:16:07.660And again, I want to distress for people watching.
00:16:10.800So True North, OK, the news wing of Juno News, they were right there.
00:16:15.440They had tons of people on the ground.
00:16:16.660so many people were sending in you know cell phone footage from the actual protest that was
00:16:21.380happening on parliament hill i will just point out personally i worked on the hill for like 20 years
00:16:26.680there were protests there all the time outside of lockdown outside of covid in the before times
00:16:32.100they'd fill the hill they'd block wellington blah blah blah wellington street is a bunch of
00:16:38.480government buildings okay it is one like street right in front of the foot of parliament hill
00:16:43.560it's full of government buildings this is not you know critical manufacturing infrastructure that is
00:16:49.400you know getting out bridge girders in emergency situations like even if you blocked it off for
00:16:54.380ages it's not really an economic thing and I will also point out I don't you don't need to comment
00:16:59.220if you don't want to Josh but afterwards after the emergencies act all the trucks went home and
00:17:04.620stuff they kept that thing blocked off for like I think it was a year and a half maybe two years
00:17:09.740Because I'd go back there and visit family and be like, huh, that fence is still up, hey?
00:17:14.340But this was still such a huge problem that the Trudeau government thought they should invoke the Emergencies Act.
00:17:19.640And again, if you're watching this from the Taxpayers Federation, God forbid you want to have a massive anti-carbon tax protest, of which there have been many on Parliament Hill.
00:27:21.760So what happens now is the federal government has just asked the Supreme Court for leave
00:27:27.580to have the Supreme Court hear the case over again. And it's not a given that the Supreme
00:27:33.700Court will hear the case. You know, it's up to them. And they do this based on whether they think
00:27:39.260essentially that it's in the public interest and they look at questions that the appeals
00:27:43.740courts are not going to be able to just handle themselves. You know, one reason that they might
00:27:51.300not hear this case is just because the courts below were so unanimous. But a reason that they
00:27:58.280might be very interested in hearing the case is because these things don't come up very often.
00:28:03.700You know, the Emergencies Act has never been invoked before, and it might be many years before
00:28:07.920it is invoked again. So they might say, well, we can put a cap on this and either say, yes,
00:28:13.820the government is right here. And, you know, all four judges that looked at this are wrong,
00:28:18.960or they can look at it and say, no, the judges below got this right. The act has high thresholds
00:28:25.720for what it is to be invoked for good reason, and it shouldn't have been invoked in this case. So
00:28:31.540we'll see what happens. It's up to the Supreme Court whether they hear it or not. And I think
00:28:37.740they probably will, I have to say, and we'll be there fighting them. That's too bad. I was hopeful
00:28:43.460because of your point, because previous courts have been so unanimous that they'd say, you know
00:28:48.420what we have other things to do. Our colleagues in the lower courts, they handled this and now
00:28:52.880we're fine. But you think then it's perhaps the novelty of it, for lack of a better term,
00:28:58.280that they might entertain it and actually hear it? Yeah, that's right. They like to,
00:29:04.180if it's sort of a once in a generation or once every 10 years type of court case, they often
00:29:09.560say, well, we should do this so that governments have our guidance. And, you know, we will have
00:29:15.220to go and decide whether we're going to fight the leave application or if we're just going to
00:29:23.260accept that we're going to the Supreme Court and settling it. But either way, we're going to have
00:29:28.680to be prepared to fight this big battle. Now, I know you're here for the CCF, but correct me if
00:29:35.900I'm wrong. At the lower courts, at least in the case of Justice Mosley's court level, I believe
00:29:42.020like the canadian civil liberties uh association there was there was a group who i would generally
00:29:47.620characterize as being more left-wing but still in defense of civil liberties if that's fair to say
00:29:52.900that's my words not josh's um that were also intervening and helping and saying this was wrong
00:29:59.300the emergencies act was wrong and it shouldn't have happened is that that's correct right yeah
00:30:03.780so i'll say so civil liberties uh belong to everyone you know you've made this point chris
00:30:09.140that uh when rights are violated whether we're talking about search and seizure rights or freedom
00:30:13.620of expression rights those rights belong to everyone from left to right to everything in
00:30:19.140between so um there were various groups there were more there was a more right-wing group than us and
00:30:25.700there was a more left-wing group than us the ccla um that brought this challenge but in the end it
00:30:30.980was only us and the ccla and a couple of individuals who were granted standing to fight this because
00:30:37.300we have you know we have the the legal capacity we've got the lawyers that are able to actually
00:30:43.220make um the best arguments to put before the court so the ccla and and the canadian constitution
00:30:48.500foundation got standing and frankly it was our arguments the canadian constitution foundation
00:30:53.620that uh really carried the day at the federal court of appeal so uh you know our lawyers on this
00:31:01.620Sujit Chowdhury and Jananiya Shang-McGonathan were there and they made the arguments that really
00:31:08.980are reflected throughout the the Federal Court of Appeals decision. So we will be there again
00:31:14.500and we have we have great lawyers on it even if we don't have the budget that the federal government
00:31:18.740has. Are you hearing from other groups? Like I think a lot of people who are who are laymen
00:31:24.660who are watching this were happy to see that how do i put this um a wider variety of groups
00:31:31.700came together to fight this together which was great like hearing from you know more balanced
00:31:38.340groups was great i think because it makes the argument stronger that way it doesn't matter if
00:31:43.460you're protesting these lockdowns it doesn't matter if you're protesting an iraq war it doesn't matter
00:31:48.180if you're protesting a carbon tax they're coming together saying we have the right to express
00:31:53.060ourselves in protest and not have our bank accounts frozen, which is the entire point.
00:31:58.000Have you been hearing from other groups so far going into the Supreme Court level? Are you guys
00:32:02.520going in there by yourselves? I think it's obvious that we will be there with CCLA. I think it's
00:32:09.140obvious that the CCF and CCLA will be leading the charge again this time. But there can be
00:32:15.080interveners. The CCF intervenes all the time in Supreme Court cases, which means you go to the
00:32:20.660court and you say look we represent a different segment of the public than the parties and we
00:32:26.160have experience giving arguments and we have some arguments to make that you might not otherwise
00:32:31.160consider that can help settle this legal question and so there will be other groups that will be
00:32:36.340there and it'll be interesting to see who's there i i wouldn't be surprised if it runs the entire
00:32:40.800gamut from sort of the far left to the the far right of um of groups wanting to be there to say
00:32:47.960look, we, you know, we see the problem here, which is that if a government can do this against the freedom convoy, they can do this against pro-Palestinian protesters.
00:32:58.000They can do this against anti-immigration protesters or pro-immigration protesters or anti-tax protests.
00:33:07.460Right. So so we think there will be a wide range of groups there and that most of them will be saying, look, we're here to preserve protest rights.
00:33:14.980and we don't think that what the government did here was was justified so um bring it on
00:33:20.180when will we know if they want to bring it on um those particular groups uh no if the supreme
00:33:29.200court of canada is going to hear this yeah we're expecting to hear from them no no it's all right
00:33:33.320we're already ready to bring it on but when we hear from the supreme court of canada the next
00:33:37.080several months we'll know okay yeah okay because things move at the speed of court wonderful they
00:33:43.380do not move quickly um i mean the supreme court moves a bit faster once you're there usually they
00:33:47.740hear things within a year um then it's sometimes a year till till you get a decision so um that's
00:33:54.060fast for canadian courts but um yeah it'll be a couple years before it's all all resolved
00:33:58.460potentially i love how lawyers say that a year is quickly that's just awesome all right josh
00:34:04.240anything i haven't anything i haven't asked you okay that you think it's super important for
00:34:09.160Do you know listeners, do you know viewers and everybody watching on YouTube, frankly, to find out about anything I haven't asked you yet?
00:34:16.340No, but I just want to say, you know, continue to talk to your friends and your neighbors about why this why this matters, because in the heat of the moment, a lot of people just assumed it was justified.
00:34:26.400But they don't realize the implications for future protests or future privacy in terms of, you know, not having your bank account searched and seized because you are politically an enemy of the government.
00:34:37.640So keep talking to your friends and your neighbors, and thanks for caring about this.
00:34:42.320Awesome. Once again, thank you so much for joining us, Josh.
00:34:45.540Keep fighting for people's personal freedoms. Appreciate it.
00:34:52.820As you can hear, Josh and all of his colleagues there at the Canadian Constitution Foundation,
00:34:59.060they're up against the Goliath of government.
00:35:02.060The Goliath of government, they've got your wallet.
00:35:04.120They've got endless monies to fight this at the Supreme Court of Canada, and it's groups like the Canadian Constitution Foundation, which is a charity, that are in there fighting for this.
00:35:17.120They've published books on issues like this.
00:35:19.820They've argued this at now two levels of court.
00:35:24.300And we know that True North was right there.
00:35:27.300They were right there on Wellington Street talking to protesters, etc.
00:35:31.360They gave it full coverage back in the day.
00:35:33.560There's been a book published by True North and now Juno. It's really important that people understand what happened here. And most importantly, why the Emergencies Act is, as Josh DeHaas just described it, why the Emergencies Act is the nuclear option and why we need to make sure that governments don't use that option against what is relatively peaceful protest.
00:36:01.580again folks but in the before times before 2020 there was a huge anti-carbon tax protest i remember
00:36:09.120in fact i i think there was even a convoy that drove out there with trucks from western canada
00:36:14.540at the time and so and it was noisy and there were diesel fumes in ottawa and stuff and again
00:36:19.760it was purely about the carbon tax which the canadian taxpayers federation has been fighting
00:36:24.420since it was first put through so if the government can all of a sudden freeze people's
00:36:30.900bank accounts because they don't like a certain protest, instead of just getting the police to
00:36:36.480remove protesters from blocking a street, as is normal, we're in trouble. Because if we can't
00:36:44.220hold government to account, then how are we going to make sure that they're not taxing us out of
00:36:49.980house and home, wasting our money, and manipulating how we can actually live our lives? So it's super
00:36:57.040important. No matter if you are on the left or the right, so-called, or your family is on the left
00:37:03.740or the right, being able to assemble and express yourself in order to hold the government to
00:37:09.900account is essential, okay, to how we move going forward. So be sure, if you're able to, to go
00:37:17.220donate to the Canadian Constitution Foundation, because they're going to have to be in the arena
00:37:21.960again, as this thing sounds like it might be going all the way to the Supreme Court.
00:37:27.660Folks, if you haven't done so yet, be sure to head on over to Juno News. Subscribe to Juno News
00:37:34.340because we are not funded by the government. The Juno channel is not funded by the government.
00:37:40.180Journalists should never be funded by the government because it's a direct conflict
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00:37:50.280journalist is counting on the government for his or her paycheck, that's not going to happen very
00:37:55.160well now, is it? So remember, head on over to Canadian Constitution Foundation, show them your
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00:38:07.900share this interview with your friends and family who need to know.