Juno News - China Hearings ｜ LeBlanc and Joly testify on Chinese election interference allegations

00:00:00.000 We can have them out, return from 1 to 1.30, find our way forward.

00:00:23.060 this afternoon's resources at the current time unless there is a cancellation whips can come

00:00:29.780 together to determine what meeting's being cancelled and if we can return what i have also

00:00:34.260 said is that if we cannot find a time this afternoon i am more than willing to ask for

00:00:38.660 resources next week because the house is not sitting and we're not competing against them

00:00:43.460 but right now between the clerk and myself to get time to use resources from the house of commons

00:00:49.380 i have provided you an upfront update and where we are this afternoon right now it's not in our hands

00:00:56.020 but if something happens organically like something is camp cancelled we would for

00:00:59.860 sure ask for the resources the first time it was said here whether everyone wanted it or not

00:01:04.900 right away i signal to the clerk please ask to see if there's any resources available

00:01:09.060 and she maintains trying to see what's available and the minute we know we would share it

00:01:14.180 thank you madam chair i think you've been more than clear of what the resources that

00:01:23.940 are available and what are outside of your control despite mr cooper's temper tantrum

00:01:29.300 at the end of the day it was this committee that asked ministers to appear they have appeared

00:01:36.740 so why would we not hear them out if the conservatives are actually interested in

00:01:42.340 answers and they should be all for asking their questions getting it on the record instead of

00:01:49.340 them playing these games once again taking their toys and going home I think Canadians want to

00:01:55.340 hear from the ministers again this is what was asked we're prepared to do so and then get back

00:02:01.680 to the debate of the motions at hand if the conservatives want to play games once again

00:02:06.380 want to throw temper tantrums then we'll continue to do that and the ministers can go on with their

00:02:11.840 day but this is what this committee asked them to appear to do they are here and i think it

00:02:18.080 behooves us to actually get on with the work of this committee instead of more and more you know

00:02:27.280 okay can then we just do uh have unanimous consent motion i propose unanimous consent

00:02:32.000 motion that we will continue after the ministers and return at 4 30 after question period

00:02:36.880 so i i can i can take that but i would not be genuine because right now we don't have

00:02:45.360 resources at 4 30. what i'm saying is the way this place functions is that whips on each of

00:02:53.360 our teams is welcome to come together choose what they want to cancel and committee can meet

00:02:58.220 between the clerk and myself i can't commit to coming back at 4 30 until i have resources

00:03:04.360 well i recommend that we do that and have good faith that you're going to figure it out and

00:03:10.480 that the whips will do their job right i'm it's fascinating because we keep questioning if you

00:03:17.680 can have faith in me and then you're asking me to have faith in the conversation i won't be part of

00:03:21.960 i'm on in public telling you i think it's an important conversation i think we can find a

00:03:27.020 way forward the longer this takes the longer it takes for the ministers to come here the harder

00:03:31.140 it is for us to get back at one and then to actually push the resources we're already pushing

00:03:35.780 so i believe do we have agreement let me know that we have ministers appear and then we go back into

00:03:42.980 this conversation right after to find a way forward if by then the whips have figured out a way to

00:03:47.700 cancel another meeting and meet at 4 30 perfect if not what i'm committing is i'll find you a time

00:03:52.820 next week whenever you want to meet and we can continue this conversation during the constituency

00:03:58.180 week because then we're not it's not the whips who decide that between the clerk and i we can

00:04:02.260 try to push and get some resources like we have for the other 106 floors that have happened

00:04:06.420 so rather than it be a 1064 for anybody watching emergency meeting we can actually plan when we're

00:04:11.060 doing it and then work around our schedules i think that's reasonable mr cooper just to be

00:04:18.900 crystal clear if the majority of whips ensure that there are resources available at 4 30 this

00:04:25.940 afternoon are you going to be here and our liberal mp is going to show up so it's interesting enough

00:04:30.100 that you would say that mr cooper i made that same comment to the clerk and the clerk said

00:04:34.980 she's not sure how that stuff functions what she does know is we don't have resources right now

00:04:38.820 and what the house has told us is that whips can determine the way forward and so therefore i am

00:04:44.100 as a chair does taking process advice from the clerk and doing my job as the chair of this

00:04:50.740 committee and so therefore i'm on the record telling you what my intentions are there's just

00:04:56.180 certain things i can't i can't control them and if i could i would have a lot of wishes i can tell

00:05:01.940 you and one of them would be to ensure canadians actually had full confidence in our systems

00:05:06.500 so with that mr turnbull just really quick i think we're wasting the precious time that we

00:05:12.820 had dedicated to hearing from a panel of ministers because of this we will come back when we can when

00:05:20.180 when the resources are available so let's get on with questioning the ministers if if members are

00:05:26.020 truly serious about getting to the bottom of this and getting answers then why are we wasting the

00:05:30.900 time of ministers let's move on i'm going to propose it is currently 1078 um we can have

00:05:40.660 ministers leave it sorry 1208 i'm ready for this to yeah 1208 i can offer you minister's

00:05:48.420 stay for one hour or we ask ministers leave at one o'clock would you like ministers to stay for

00:05:53.620 one hour or would you like ministers to leave in at 12 12 at one o'clock mr cooper madam chair i

00:06:02.820 just want to put on the record that opposition whips have agreed to coming back at 4 30 and free

00:06:09.460 up necessary resources so i i want to put that on the record and therefore i want your assurance

00:06:15.300 but you're going to be here at 4 30 along with liberal mps so when my clerk tells me that and

00:06:20.500 i know it i will go from there so can we get this so i would like the ministers here for the full

00:06:25.140 hour what i certainly hope we'll be back here at 4 30 and if we aren't i guess we'll deal with that

00:06:29.540 then we will get it dealt with for sure um is there anybody who's opposed to having ministers

00:06:34.980 here for one hour i would ask that so we're adjourning this part of the meeting starting

00:06:41.940 the next meeting and coming back to we suspend um okay we'll suspend and we will just take you

00:06:58.820 know what nobody gets a wash and break we're just gonna get the panel switched over and everyone

00:07:04.340 deal with it i guess and welcome ministers please come in and join us we will continue

00:07:08.820 our meeting and everybody should be in their seats in literally two minutes because i will

00:07:13.140 continue the meeting thank you and thank you for coming accompanying the ministers today we have

00:07:21.140 from the department of foreign affairs trade and development tara denham director general

00:07:26.100 office of human rights freedoms and inclusion jenny chen executive director greater china

00:07:32.020 political and coordination and from the prairie council office alan sutherland assistant secretary

00:07:38.500 to the cabinet machinery of government and democratic institutions a reminder all comments

00:07:44.820 are to go through the chair and the better you keep this meeting going the faster it goes so

00:07:51.140 a lot of it's also in your hands with that ministers if you can signal me who would like

00:07:56.660 to go first and if we can always keep our comments tight um ministry it's a pleasure to have you back

00:08:02.980 thank you for taking the time the floor is yours thank you madam chairperson i'm delighted to see

00:08:09.860 everyone here today madam chair members of the committee thank you inviting me to discuss this

00:08:15.620 very important issue the government of canada takes allegations of interference and coercive

00:08:20.980 diplomacy by foreign agents no matter where they come from very seriously enjoy ensuring the

00:08:27.700 security of canadians and protecting our democratic institutions are top priorities for the government

00:08:32.980 We do not tolerate interference in our democracy and elections. Never, ever.

00:08:40.380 Canadians should never feel unsafe or threatened, especially if they are part of a community that puts them at risk.

00:08:48.440 All Canadians should feel able to participate in our civil society and democracy without fear of reprisal and with confidence.

00:08:57.980 Madame Chair, the work this committee is doing is critical.

00:09:02.980 Democracy is a choice. It is often a fight, and it takes work every day to defend and promote it.

00:09:10.880 Canada's democracy is among the strongest and the most stable in the world.

00:09:15.560 This stability is the basis for the safety, prosperity, and growth that our citizens enjoy.

00:09:21.820 It is worth protecting, and this should never be a partisan issue.

00:09:26.360 Reports of Chinese interference in the 2021 Canadian general election are deeply troubling.

00:09:38.020 We have been clear with China, both here at home and in other fora internationally, that

00:09:43.920 Canada will never tolerate any form of foreign interference either in our democracy or in

00:09:49.380 our eternal affairs.

00:09:51.840 I have made this point repeatedly with China, including last week when I met with my Chinese

00:09:56.340 counterpart. We will never accept any infringement of our sovereignty nor any violation by Chinese

00:10:03.840 diplomats of the Viena Convention on Canadian Soil. I will repeat this in English. Canada will

00:10:09.880 never tolerate any form of foreign interference in our democracy nor in our internal affairs.

00:10:16.920 We will never accept any breach of our territorial integrity and sovereignty and we will never

00:10:23.420 except any breach by Chinese diplomats of the Vienna Convention on Canada's soil.

00:10:29.740 I have conveyed this to my Chinese counterparts on numerous occasions,

00:10:34.500 including just days ago at the G20.

00:10:38.320 Senior officials in my department have also repeatedly delivered this message in recent weeks and months.

00:10:45.480 We have told them directly, unequivocally, that we will not tolerate any form of interference.

00:10:51.340 We will continue to do what is necessary to defend our national security and national interest.

00:10:57.340 The question of foreign interference is not one that is unique to Canada.

00:11:02.340 This is something that our partners and allies around the world are grappling with.

00:11:07.340 And as foreign ministers, my counterparts and I work together to share best practices in countering foreign threats to democracy.

00:11:17.220 China's rise as a global actor is reshaping the strategic outlook of every state in the region,

00:11:23.700 including Canada. I've said it before and I will say it again. China is an increasingly disruptive 0.90

00:11:31.540 global power. We have been very clear about our approach with China in our Indo-Pacific strategy. 0.97

00:11:39.380 we will china challenge we will challenge china when we ought to and we will cooperate 0.70

00:11:45.620 when we must we will never hold back from sharing our concerns and principles we will 0.68

00:11:50.820 never apologize for defending our national interest and as we forge ahead with a strong

00:11:57.540 multi-dimensional approach to china we will always differentiate between the chinese government 0.93

00:12:03.860 and the Chinese people themselves.

00:12:08.820 Through the Indo-Pacific strategy,

00:12:11.960 we at Global Affairs Canada are deepening our understanding

00:12:15.460 of how China thinks, operates and plans,

00:12:19.300 how it exerts its influence in the region and around the world.

00:12:24.000 Key embassies in our network will be staffed with specialized experts

00:12:27.540 to deepen our understanding of the challenges China faces

00:12:30.780 and the opportunities it seizes.

00:12:33.860 This will be the focus of our diplomatic efforts and the work has already begun.

00:12:41.940 We are also doing more to protect Canadian infrastructure, democracy and Canadian citizens

00:12:48.120 from foreign interference.

00:12:50.040 This includes modernising the Investment Canada Act, protecting our critical mineral supply

00:12:55.600 chains and preserving Canadian intellectual property and research.

00:13:02.320 We are increasing the resources of our security infrastructure to protect Canadians from clandestine

00:13:07.640 or coercive influence by foreign states.

00:13:11.980 We are also strengthening Canada's ability to effectively collect, develop and deliver

00:13:17.080 intelligence, analysis and assessments to better understand the threats of foreign interference,

00:13:23.320 hostile activities by state actors and economic coercion.

00:13:27.820 Madam Chair, just a paragraph.

00:13:31.300 We will continue to take this issue seriously, very seriously, and work at multiple levels

00:13:36.440 to shield our democratic institutions from foreign interference.

00:13:39.880 And so thank you for giving me this opportunity to have a discussion with you and answer your

00:13:43.760 questions.

00:13:44.760 Thank you.

00:13:45.760 MS.

00:13:46.760 Thank you, Minister.

00:13:47.760 Now, Minister LeBlanc, you get four and a half minutes.

00:13:51.700 Madam Chair, I'll endeavor to finish in less than that.

00:13:55.420 I'd like to thank you, Madam Chairperson, once again for today's invitation.

00:14:01.340 You've already introduced my colleague, Al Sutherland.

00:14:03.840 I reiterate what my colleague, the Foreign Affairs Minister, said.

00:14:07.800 Protecting our democracy and democratic institutions against threats of foreign interference is critical.

00:14:14.620 It's critical to our government and to all Canadians.

00:14:17.380 we obviously don't tolerate in any form foreign interference or attempts to undermine

00:14:23.540 democratic processes in canada that's why the prime minister announced on monday evening the

00:14:28.660 appointment of an independent special reporter who will have a wide mandate to formulate specific

00:14:34.900 recommendations on the protection of our democracy in the coming weeks he or she will be asked to

00:14:41.380 inform the work of the national security and intelligence committee of parliamentarians and

00:14:45.860 of the National Security Intelligence and Review Agency, as well as other processes

00:14:51.760 underway to identify gaps in our system and further advice, obviously, on how to close

00:14:58.380 those gaps.

00:15:01.380 It's important for Canadians to know all the steps that we are taking to protect Canadians

00:15:08.780 and our democracy at all times.

00:15:12.060 This committee has heard from various witnesses last week that clarified the nature of intelligence

00:15:20.160 and how important context is in order to get a complete picture.

00:15:25.120 And I would like to repeat here and now that the strong process that is in place when national

00:15:32.460 security organisations get their hands on intelligence may have a bearing on our national

00:15:39.340 public safety and those protections have been put in place it's important for canadians to

00:15:44.540 understand all the steps that we are taking to protect canadians and our democracy frankly with

00:15:51.340 canadians on the threats facing the country and by continuing to adapt our measures to that evolving

00:15:58.860 threat this issue is not new and it's not unique to canada as well public threats were reported by

00:16:07.340 the communication security establishment and by the canadian security intelligence services for

00:16:12.300 over a decade and they have identified concerns of foreign interference and threats to democratic

00:16:18.540 institutions all our allies around the world including our five eyes partners are concerned

00:16:25.500 about the threats of foreign states working to advance their interests and to undermine ours

00:16:32.380 Threats that are designed to continue to undermine Canada's security, democracy, and social fabric.

00:16:39.700 But equally, Madam Chair, Canada is recognized as having stepped up as a global leader in responding to election interference.

00:16:47.100 We've taken a number of steps since the election in 2015, and we continue to build on these actions

00:16:53.180 because threats to our democracy continue to evolve, and so, therefore, must our responses.

00:16:59.980 Madam Chair, we've talked about the Critical Election Incident Public Protocol, a senior

00:17:06.440 committee of public servants, many of whom testified before this committee last week.

00:17:11.480 This protocol established the panel, which is designed to provide Canadians with a non-partisan

00:17:17.620 transparent process where these public servants can communicate clearly and impartially with

00:17:23.880 Canadians during an election in the event of an incident or series of incidents that

00:17:29.700 that threaten the integrity of a federal election.

00:17:32.760 Madame la Présidente, bien.

00:17:35.260 Madame Chairperson, although a lot of attention has been given to the composition of this

00:17:44.300 task force, there are cabinet directives on the protocol which clearly set out that as

00:17:50.720 soon as national security organisations get wind of foreign interference in a general

00:17:57.020 it is incumbent upon them to examine all options

00:17:59.980 to address the issue effectively, efficiently, immediately.

00:18:04.520 Dependent evaluation of the protocol was recently completed

00:18:08.080 and a public version was released last week.

00:18:12.100 We are actively considering the recommendations made by Mr Rosenberg

00:18:15.800 with a view to continually improving our measures

00:18:18.900 to protect institutions, as I said, from foreign interference.

00:18:23.500 The Prime Minister announced on Monday

00:18:25.060 that we will release a plan for the implementation of recommendations from Mr. Rosenberg, as

00:18:32.000 well as others, within the next three weeks.

00:18:36.020 These are but a few examples, Madam Chair, of actions our government has taken and will

00:18:40.740 continue to take to protect Canadian democracy.

00:18:44.480 And now, obviously, Melanie and I are very enthusiastic to answer all your questions.

00:18:48.980 Thank you, Minister.

00:18:52.540 Six-minute rounds, starting with Mr. Bertholdt.

00:18:55.040 Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson. Ministers and your staff, thank you for being here.

00:19:03.120 Minister, you made a statement earlier, we will never tolerate foreign interference in Canada.

00:19:14.320 You're good at strong rhetoric that strike us as being firm, but I'd like to know from your mouth

00:19:23.040 how many Beijing diplomats have been expelled by your department or by the federal government

00:19:32.080 in 2018? Response. Thank you very much. I'd be pleased to respond to that question.

00:19:39.200 Not only are my statements heartfelt and strong, but they have a lot to do with the government's

00:19:46.720 undertaking. Well, how many diplomats were expelled in 2018? I'm attempting to answer

00:19:51.680 that, so if you'll just allow me to do so. First, when it comes to engagements with China,

00:19:57.780 as Minister of Foreign Affairs, I have a number of tools at my disposal. And to respond directly

00:20:02.980 to your question, if there are any diplomats who violate the Vienna Convention or Canadian

00:20:09.580 law, I will never hesitate for a moment to expel them.

00:20:13.580 Well, let's make this simple, says Mr Berthold. Let's make this simple. I have a quick, I

00:20:19.460 a straightforward question i'm just going to bring up what we all know is that mr bertold is

00:20:28.580 talking over the minister if he wants to get responses to his questions i think we should be

00:20:33.220 able to hear the minister's response thank you so i am going to state at the beginning of my

00:20:40.820 comments i was very clear that if we cannot have a good conversation all comments colleagues

00:20:49.460 ministers everyone alike goes through the chair don't affect to no commentary all comments go

00:20:56.740 through the chairperson if we can't take turns they do when there's one person speaking at a time

00:21:06.180 i think also i recognize time does belong to members but to be actually pretending like this

00:21:12.020 is a courtroom and going back and forth also doesn't help because on one side we're saying

00:21:16.500 this is a very important conversation and we all want to get there and then the other time we're

00:21:21.380 kind of trying to make a show out of it and so i think we should be mindful about how we answer

00:21:26.180 questions as i asked earlier to both yourselves just let's just try to keep it tight the whole

00:21:32.420 concept of thinking for a question or whatever else i guess today it's not needed we just said

00:21:37.540 it once at the beginning we'll say at the end we'll go on our way so we'll get ask questions

00:21:42.020 answer questions as factual as possible, and we can make this work.

00:21:46.260 Mr Berthold, la parole.

00:21:48.380 The floor is yours.

00:21:50.560 Mr Berthold, thank you, Madam Chairperson.

00:21:52.600 So I'll repeat my question.

00:21:54.720 How many diplomats were expelled by the Government of Canada in 2018, Chinese diplomats?

00:22:03.200 As Foreign Minister, as I said to you, I have several tools in my toolbox at my disposal

00:22:07.640 to manage relationships with various countries, including China.

00:22:11.780 Therefore, what we did, I assume that's what you want to know, Madam Chairperson, Madam

00:22:17.740 Chairperson, can I take back the floor, please?

00:22:19.960 I asked a question in relation to 2018, I understand there were no expulsions then.

00:22:24.580 In 2019, how many diplomats were expelled?

00:22:28.320 Well, my dear colleague, as far as diplomatic relations are concerned, it's important to

00:22:34.320 understand that, of course, the Vienna Convention must be upheld.

00:22:39.060 it to be violated, we will expel those diplomats. That much is clear. Madam Minister, Madam

00:22:46.060 Minister, Madam Chairperson, Madam Chairperson, through you, I understand that I'm not getting

00:22:50.740 an answer about 2019. 2021, how many diplomats were expelled? Response. Well, it's an ounce

00:22:58.500 of prevention is worth a pound of cure. What we can do, and this was in the news this morning,

00:23:03.620 very this morning we can deny visas madam chairperson madam chairperson 2021 in 2022 in 2023

00:23:12.660 i'm doing my best madam chairperson there's more time we take like this the less time we actually

00:23:20.740 have and so i just really do want to find a way forward please let's maximize our time all of us

00:23:28.580 mr turnbull on a point of order i just want the minister to be able to be given the space

00:23:34.740 and time to respond to the questions that mr bertold is posing i think it's important

00:23:39.940 he has important questions but i think he should be equally interested in the answers that he's

00:23:44.340 getting i think some of us do want that unfortunately the way this place functions

00:23:51.620 is not functional because members do believe they own the time and therefore there are some

00:23:57.300 processes that work that would be equal time for the question and the answer because, well,

00:24:02.420 I won't get into commentary.

00:24:04.420 So I would just ask Mr. Berthold.

00:24:09.060 If we can just give a bit of leeway to our witnesses, the witnesses need a little bit

00:24:16.680 of time to offer up an answer to each other and find a way forward.

00:24:20.740 So I will just say your time is limited and if this is going to keep being interrupted

00:24:26.360 then I'm going to have to let the clock run rather than keep pausing it.

00:24:29.560 Mr Berthold, left panel.

00:24:31.240 The floor is yours.

00:24:32.940 Madam Chairperson, I haven't used the time as I would have liked to,

00:24:37.960 and I'll continue to make an attempt to do so.

00:24:40.100 I just want a figure, a single figure,

00:24:42.280 and the figure I've got from the Minister is zero.

00:24:45.080 And we can see that this cover-up campaign is still underway.

00:24:48.260 It's all well and good to say we're going to do X, Y and Z. 0.99

00:24:51.160 We're going to be strong in the face of China. 0.99

00:24:53.400 But the facts speak for themselves. 1.00

00:24:55.080 The facts speak for themselves.

00:24:57.560 There was not a single diplomat expelled despite the numerous briefings that have taken place over a good many years.

00:25:03.740 Second question, when did the minister learn of the existence of Chinese police stations in Quebec?

00:25:10.180 Response. Let me just come back to your previous question, colleague.

00:25:14.580 Each and every time that we make a decision in relation to another country, including China,

00:25:19.460 China, we think about an important sacrosanct rule and that is reciprocity.

00:25:28.180 Every time we make a decision about diplomats here on Canadian soil, that has a bearing

00:25:33.540 on their diplomats, our diplomats in China.

00:25:37.280 We need eyes and ears in China.

00:25:40.720 Now when it comes to protecting, specifically when it comes to protecting Canadians who 0.94

00:25:45.400 are on Chinese soil. We saw this play out with the two Michaels. 0.94

00:25:50.240 Madame Chairperson, I understand the principle, says Mr. Berthold. It's important to know

00:25:56.840 what's going on in China, says Minister Jolie.

00:26:00.120 Madame…

00:26:04.120 The interpreter must suspend service as it is impossible to interpret.

00:26:07.720 Unfortunately, I didn't get any answers to any of the questions I asked.

00:26:15.380 Point of order, Madam Chair, I don't know if you have your earpiece in but the interpreter

00:26:22.660 has been so frustrated by this interaction that they have said that they are refusing

00:26:28.760 interpretation and so therefore I don't think it's fair to continue questions in this way

00:26:35.000 if we can't properly understand what's happening in committee.

00:26:38.880 It's a matter of privilege for me to be able to understand the interaction.

00:26:44.700 can the interpretation resume yes it can can you hear me it's working

00:26:53.940 listen the first round's always the toughest so i just want to get to the next person i'm

00:27:02.660 going to let you know and i think we mr berthold has been clear with his intentions and i think

00:27:08.660 you have been here wrong enough that you know how this works there's certain things i can't do so

00:27:13.460 I think if it is just what he wants to do, I think that speaks to what he wants to do.

00:27:19.780 Mr Berthold.

00:27:20.420 I don't like expersions being cast about my way, my line of questioning.

00:27:28.940 But Madam Chairperson, for the last time, how many diplomats are expelled from Canada by the federal government since 2015?

00:27:36.400 Response. Here's my answer, Mr Berthold.

00:27:39.060 If there are ever Chinese diplomats that flout the Vienna Convention, then and there we will

00:27:48.240 take action. In the meantime, here's what we've done. We have denied visas. We have castigated

00:27:56.820 the Chinese ambassador on a number of occasions. We've made representations to Beijing directly,

00:28:04.640 and we have attempted to protect Canadian staff on Chinese soil.

00:28:11.440 There's a principle, Madam Chairperson, equal share of time.

00:28:15.860 The Minister is taking much of my time in an effort to avoid responding to my question,

00:28:20.940 but Madam Chairperson says, Minister Jolie,

00:28:22.780 the question is just so important that I must respond fulsomely.

00:28:26.420 Well, Minister, what concrete action did you take

00:28:31.040 against any diplomat whatsoever on Canadian soil

00:28:36.160 who were embroiled in election interference

00:28:40.700 since you're appointed minister?

00:28:42.940 That's a good question, Mr Berthold.

00:28:45.420 We have done several things.

00:28:48.000 As Minister of Foreign Affairs,

00:28:50.140 I have a lot of tools at my disposal.

00:28:51.840 Yes, you already said that.

00:28:52.880 You've said it often, says Mr Berthold.

00:28:54.180 But the first thing that we did, of course, says Minister Jolly,

00:28:56.840 is to broach our Chinese counterparts about election interference.

00:29:04.900 And I did so even last week.

00:29:07.940 We heard the beep, beep, beep.

00:29:10.640 It's up to the next speaker.

00:29:12.720 Mrs. Sahota.

00:29:15.000 Thank you, Madam Chair.

00:29:16.440 I think I'm going to start.

00:29:18.840 Hopefully I can get some answers to some of the great questions

00:29:21.820 Mr. Bertolt asked,

00:29:23.860 but we couldn't hear uh the interaction properly so i think i will give the floor black back to

00:29:30.580 minister jolly because i think it's really important to understand um the mindset or the

00:29:36.980 calculation that gac has to take when making decisions what types of decisions does uh

00:29:45.700 global affairs and yourself and your department take when you are made aware of these types of

00:29:51.780 problem some interferences in our relations thank you thank you madam chair and thank you

00:29:59.380 dear colleague so hold them so first and foremost obviously this is an issue that we've been dealing

00:30:05.940 with for some time and i've been foreign minister now since 2021 and one of the things that was

00:30:12.020 really important was to have a clear stance on china and so what we did in our indo-pacific

00:30:18.340 strategy was actually to make sure that we would draw our red lines and how we would be engaging

00:30:24.180 with china and now since it's extremely clear we now have our roles of engagement but before then

00:30:31.860 as we were dealing with obviously diplomats that we expect that they stay in their lane

00:30:38.200 if there are any issues with any form of violation of the vienna convention of canadian law whatsoever

00:30:47.180 first and foremost we engage directly with China because that's what G7

00:30:52.640 countries do it is in our national interest to do so it is in our allies

00:30:57.680 interest to do so as a geopolitical situation is extremely complicated and

00:31:02.000 getting more complicated the other thing we do is I since Canadians had concern

00:31:07.580 I clearly instructed my department to call in the ambassadors and make sure

00:31:14.500 also that our ambassador jennifer may in beijing would be in contact with the ministry of foreign

00:31:21.540 affairs in china that has happened many many many times in the past year and so the other thing also

00:31:31.620 when china wanted to send a political operative last fall we decided to deny a visa which obviously

00:31:39.380 is the right thing to do but these are the different actions that we've put into place 0.75

00:31:46.580 and let me tell you if we have any form of clear evidence of any wrongdoing we would send we will

00:31:54.020 send diplomats packing very very very quickly is do you feel at this point it would be in the best 0.87

00:32:04.420 interest of Canadians um and our institutions to expel all Chinese diplomats see I know that on

00:32:12.740 the side of the conservative this is something that is an easy fix a quick fix but the reality

00:32:18.820 is is when we take that decision it has an impact on us also in China for any expulsion there is an

00:32:27.540 expulsion afterwards for uh of us in china and right now our biggest challenge is to understand

00:32:38.020 how china operates how they plan how they work and i believe profoundly in the importance of

00:32:44.660 diplomacy in our diplomats more than ever we need capacity we need eyes and ears on the ground like

00:32:51.220 like I said before.

00:32:52.400 We need to be able to address and defend national interests

00:32:57.700 that we have in our bilateral relationship.

00:33:01.000 And also, I'm extremely concerned

00:33:03.820 by the protection of Canadians abroad.

00:33:06.340 And so we know we have considered cases with China.

00:33:09.600 We need to engage to protect these people.

00:33:12.720 This is something that keeps me up at night.

00:33:15.040 And so that is why it is important that we have

00:33:18.940 capacity in Beijing and across our network in China.

00:33:22.940 How important was it, in the case of the two Michaels,

00:33:25.620 to have diplomats on the ground in China present?

00:33:28.460 I would say it was fundamental, Ruby.

00:33:31.080 It was extremely important.

00:33:32.700 And in front of this committee, I would just

00:33:35.120 like to thank our Beijing team that

00:33:37.840 was instrumental in making sure that the two Michaels came

00:33:41.160 back to Canada.

00:33:42.700 And you guys all have consular cases in your office.

00:33:46.700 I have the chance to talk to many of you about it.

00:33:49.620 You know how much it's difficult when a citizen,

00:33:52.660 or one of your constituents, comes to you and says,

00:33:56.320 I have an issue with my family,

00:33:58.580 or a family member of mine is in a difficult situation

00:34:03.460 elsewhere in the world.

00:34:05.140 Of course, we want to make sure to offer that service.

00:34:08.440 And it is particularly true in China.

00:34:11.460 Another quick question.

00:34:12.340 You mentioned in your introductory remarks about the G20 foreign minister's meeting that you just had.

00:34:18.460 You said you delivered a message to China.

00:34:22.320 How was, what was the delivery of that message?

00:34:25.700 What did you say and how was that message received?

00:34:28.940 I wanted to make sure that I was able to meet with my counterpart.

00:34:33.020 Why? Because he's a new foreign minister.

00:34:34.640 I had a conversation and a relationship, a tough one, with Wang Yi, the former foreign minister who's now at the Politburo.

00:34:42.340 And now I wanted to create this relationship which is a difficult one but a necessary one

00:34:53.160 with the new foreign minister.

00:34:55.600 I was not the only one wanting to talk to him because obviously all my G7 counterparts

00:35:01.580 and even I would say G19 counterparts wanted to engage.

00:35:07.680 But I was extremely clear.

00:35:10.560 I looked at him in the eyes and said to him, first, we will never tolerate any form of

00:35:14.920 foreign interference in our democracy and internal affairs, and second, we will never

00:35:22.000 tolerate any form of breach of our sovereignty.

00:35:27.060 And so that is why I think it's important to have these tough discussions.

00:35:31.100 They're not something that we like doing, but I think it's necessary for Canadians.

00:35:37.200 Merci.

00:35:38.200 madame goodrow six minutes six minutes miss good rule thank you very much madam chairperson i was

00:35:43.960 waiting for this moment and here it's come we discussed this this week and we're among ourselves

00:35:50.040 each other so we can speak freely we have six minutes my constituents want to know we all

00:35:57.800 wanted to know what on what basis did we opt for a special reporter rather than together in a

00:36:08.280 non-partisanship way in full cognizance with a view to not undermining the confidence and trust

00:36:14.200 of Canadians and Quebecers why choose a special reporter rather than leaving it up to us to choose

00:36:20.920 together to demonstrate our good faith I'd like to know the justification the argument behind that

00:36:26.600 the rationale. Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson. Thank you, Ms Goudreau.

00:36:31.240 Now, in the last 40 minutes that we've been here, it's been a clear demonstration that

00:36:37.800 taking partisanship out of the mix ain't no easy matter. And we've seen this in question

00:36:43.800 in a period too. And I share what you've said in the House of Commons, what your colleagues have

00:36:49.720 too, that Canada will be well served with a nonpartisan transparent probe that Canadians

00:36:58.280 can follow so that they can get a sense of the nature of the interference, what we've

00:37:03.800 done as a government. We believe we have a good track record, but we need to strengthen

00:37:08.800 it further. We've already done so. And the whole idea behind a special rapporteur is

00:37:15.060 to very quickly define the steps that need to follow.

00:37:18.980 This is a normal process.

00:37:20.400 Had we immediately struck a commission of inquiry, the question would have been, how

00:37:26.420 did you choose those terms of reference?

00:37:29.040 Why haven't you done X, Y or Z?

00:37:31.180 Have you given access to A, B and C?

00:37:34.200 We were asked to act in short order, we are acting in short order, and the person will

00:37:39.220 be chosen based on their integrity their experience their non-partisanship and it's our hope that that

00:37:49.060 individual will be able to provide us advice and counsel as to the next steps that's the best way

00:37:54.580 to our minds of depoliticizing the issue and we hope that everyone will see that we are working

00:38:02.420 towards the same goal. I understand, Madam Chairperson, all the good intentions behind

00:38:09.160 this. But folks are asking us questions and there's been a whole lot of surveys and polls.

00:38:15.360 Trust is plummeting from year to year. There was an opportunity, a window of opportunity

00:38:21.740 to demonstrate that together we could have chosen an individual. Perhaps it would have

00:38:27.100 been the very same person that you will choose as special rapporteur. But in terms of our

00:38:32.400 our image. And for the benefit of future elections, you know, there was issue of choosing together,

00:38:41.520 we made this choice together, we reached a consensus, we found common ground, and then

00:38:49.600 we could have made that announcement. You know, I'm not used to how things work here.

00:38:55.900 What I saw in the Khulu Commission play out is that when an in-camera session is needed, 0.96

00:39:01.880 go in camera and this allows us to pull the shroud off these issues and show the bald

00:39:11.560 face truth to the public but we don't want this to be sort of scripted as you seem to

00:39:18.260 be scripting it can we just take a step back here and agree that we should be able to consult

00:39:25.300 on this and choose someone we spent a lot of time at question period discussing this

00:39:29.880 can't we move on to something else and show that we are willing to work together well we are here

00:39:35.240 to work together and i share a lot of your points maybe not how pessimistic you are about

00:39:44.920 certain aspects election turnout we have an election turnout in canada i'm proud to say

00:39:52.280 which is uh among the best on the world worldwide and we can always do more i agree with you the

00:39:58.680 Prime Minister consulted and will consult with opposition parties before the appointment

00:40:06.480 of a special rapporteur.

00:40:07.960 We've said and we continue to say that this will find an individual who will ensure that

00:40:23.320 measures are put in place immediately, that that individual will identify gaps, further

00:40:30.940 steps that we can take, if we can appoint a credible person and give them the terms

00:40:38.120 of reference to act quickly.

00:40:42.040 And the Prime Minister has committed to announcing that name very shortly.

00:40:47.780 And I think that we'll both arrive at the same point, with the same outcome that we're

00:40:52.320 both looking for i see well just let me make sure i understand this you're going to opt for a special

00:40:59.440 reporter and you're telling me that all the uh opposition parties have been consulted when it

00:41:04.560 comes to this choice the prime minister said at the press conference on monday evening that he

00:41:09.040 would consult opposition parties before selecting a special reporter perhaps there will be no

00:41:14.880 No unanimous choice or consensus, but I am sure that when the name is chosen of that

00:41:24.140 individual, we'll be able to turn down the volume here, focus on the shared common challenges

00:41:31.600 that face us and decide on the next steps.

00:41:38.100 And I sincerely hope that that will be a promising endeavor.

00:41:46.340 Ms. Goudreau, thank you very much.

00:41:52.160 I think that that was a good back and forth, and I think that's an example of how we should

00:41:57.800 move forward with the questioning.

00:41:59.980 Ms. Well, thank you, Chair, and I thank the ministers for being here.

00:42:05.060 And I am grateful that you waited a few extra minutes to sit at the table with us today.

00:42:11.560 I just also want to put on the record that when we have that kind of intense back and forth, it's also very hard for interpreters.

00:42:18.180 They do hard work for us, and I hope all of us respect the work of those folks when they're having conversations.

00:42:27.700 My questions are going to be through the chair to Minister Jolie.

00:42:32.260 This is a really serious issue.

00:42:34.680 i am very very concerned and i take this very seriously and we and i want to appreciate the

00:42:41.400 fact that you talked about the difference between china's government and the chinese people and i 0.98

00:42:46.520 think that that's something i hope every canadian hears very clearly that we cannot mix up the two

00:42:54.120 but i'm also very curious about the fact that i read a globe and mail and they cited that a

00:43:01.080 cesis report from december 2021 where a chinese diplomat tong zelling boasted about interfering

00:43:09.240 with the elections so i'm trying to understand this i want to understand were you aware of the

00:43:15.080 intelligence reports were you aware of those or any similar accusations of miss tong and we know

00:43:22.200 that she did not leave her post until august of 2022 even though the cesis report of her claims

00:43:29.480 of interference was provided eight months earlier so i'm trying to figure out were you aware of this

00:43:36.440 were there any actions taken on the part of yourself and the department to pressure the

00:43:41.560 chinese government to withdraw her as a diplomat if you could give us some clarity on that because

00:43:46.840 i think this is part of the problem and why canadians are questioning so many of our

00:43:51.720 institutions well thank you madam this is a very important question first and foremost i get many

00:43:59.160 briefings many of them have sensitive sensitive information and obviously the right uh committee

00:44:06.520 for me to be able to address these issues and as i cop and of course if they ask me to go i will

00:44:11.960 definitely be going that being said everything that is linked to foreign actions in canada

00:44:20.440 is under the preview of my colleague the minister of public safety and so i would i don't have a

00:44:26.040 specific answer for this case that being said if i was presented with clear evidence about any form

00:44:34.920 of wrongdoing that goes against the vienna convention and when i say that rachel i mean

00:44:41.480 anything that would be wrongdoing a you know accordance with our canadian law i would send

00:44:47.240 them packing thank you for that minister and i hear very clearly that you cannot answer that

00:44:53.080 but what i'm trying to understand is how was this person in this particular position

00:44:59.480 allowed to stay for eight months despite the fact that concerns were raised and i guess the other

00:45:05.800 component of this question and and you referred to it earlier in your conversation was that the

00:45:13.240 department did refuse to grant a visa to a a person who was coming from china in a new diplomatic

00:45:21.080 position at their embassy in the fall of 2022 so i know you can't go into nuances but could you at

00:45:28.760 least provide the public with some sort of understanding of how it is that one individual

00:45:35.400 was allowed to stay in this country for eight years after explicitly boasting about interfering

00:45:42.360 in our election process and then later on you were able to refuse a visa like i'm trying to

00:45:50.040 get some clarity was there a specific change within the process and I want to correct myself

00:45:56.360 I think I said years it's months eight months but I want to understand the process so that Canadians

00:46:03.720 have some sort of transparency so if you can't speak to this in specifics has something changed

00:46:10.200 is there a new rule that you're implementing that is preventing this is it because they were already

00:46:15.400 in the country? Do we have weaknesses in allowing or removing people who should be removed from our

00:46:21.780 country? Is it easier when they come in the door to prevent that from happening? So if you could

00:46:27.380 provide some sort of process answers, I think that would help clarify to Canadians their serious and

00:46:32.520 important concerns. And I agree, they are serious concerns. A couple of things on that. First and

00:46:38.980 foremost, as I said, I can't go into the specific issue. But what I can tell you, though, is when it

00:46:44.840 comes to our own accreditation process for granting visas to diplomats I think

00:46:51.200 that there's a higher level of awareness in the in the last months and I think

00:46:58.760 also that we've been following and making sure that the norms are in place

00:47:05.600 and and nice I've instructed my department to never shy away from

00:47:10.160 denying a visa if it's for a political operative and therefore a link to the communist party of

00:47:16.560 china so that's my first point my second point when it comes to chinese diplomats in in general

00:47:28.640 we've summoned the chinese ambassadors many times i've instructed my department to do so

00:47:35.040 I think that it is important for us to be able to send strong messages

00:47:39.600 and to make sure that any form of actions stop through this engagement.

00:47:47.540 Now, should that not be the case, afterwards, like I said,

00:47:51.640 we would never hesitate from expulsing.

00:47:54.520 And I apologize, I have 10 seconds left.

00:47:56.440 So it's clear to me, and what I understand you to say, 0.97

00:48:00.160 is it's easier to prevent people from coming into the country 1.00

00:48:02.840 than it is to let them get them out of the country when they're here if I can 1.00

00:48:07.700 just end that I think that I I believe it's easier to prevent I think that the

00:48:13.280 question afterwards when it comes to diplomats in our country is how do you

00:48:17.240 make sure that you have the evidence to deal with an expulsion thank you and

00:48:21.560 what are the impacts of an expulsion also thank you I appreciate that mrs.

00:48:26.920 Blaney there's just a little bit of a nuance going on with our timer and my

00:48:30.920 timer so we do both make sure everyone knows i time it all um we are going to just get to have

00:48:37.160 one round so one more conservative liberal and then two and a half two and a half and then we

00:48:42.120 will have ministers go on their way mr cooper up to five minutes thank you very much madam chair

00:48:48.040 thank you ministers for being here uh through you madam chair to minister jolie you've talked

00:48:54.920 tough you've talked tough with your beijing counterparts so you say you even stared into

00:49:02.600 his eyes i'm sure he was very intimidated uh and now we we learned today and now we learned today

00:49:10.200 or yesterday in the globe and mail very conveniently that a visa was not uh was denied

00:49:17.160 of a a diplomat who wanted to work at the canadian beijing embassy one visa is that it one visa

00:49:29.160 how many visas have been denied just one so i want comments on your question and particularly

00:49:36.040 the beginning because i think it's actually you know i'm going to pause time i'm pausing time

00:49:44.680 i'm pausing time our approach here is very important so i would just say be mindful mr

00:49:53.800 cooper earlier one of your colleagues had said we want to make sure how much time we speak the

00:49:58.840 response is given you spoke for 43 seconds the minister will be given close to the same time

00:50:05.400 you are at 10 seconds already done minister thank you well mr cooper you would know china because

00:50:11.560 you went to china as a parliamentarian in the past and so therefore i think you would understand

00:50:17.160 that when we fall into too much um too too much partisanship we're falling into china's trap

00:50:27.400 how many visas of beijing diplomats have been denied is it just one how many i can give you

00:50:34.360 under my watch what i can tell you is that there was a visa that was not granted back this fall

00:50:41.640 and so one okay thank you for answering that one visa denied under your watch uh minutes and i just

00:50:49.160 wanted to no it's my time no no no but just madam chair madam chair my time is limited

00:50:55.560 minister okay pause pause i just want to make sure that we all understand this is a diplomatic visa

00:51:01.720 so it is a diplomatic visa obviously my question was prefaced on how many diplomatic visas one

00:51:09.640 you've answered that question you said moments ago that beijing's ambassador kong has been summoned

00:51:19.800 on many occasions it's true that the ambassador has been summoned with respect to the balloon

00:51:28.120 incident with respect to illegal police stations but not an election interference why we've summoned

00:51:36.360 the ambassador on many many subjects including foreign interference of all sorts including

00:51:40.600 within our democracy on election interference yes or no like like i said yes and maybe maybe jenny

00:51:49.000 you can add to that because the department would know of course thank you madam chair i would just

00:51:54.840 like to add that uh ambassador tongue diplomatic representations were made to ambassador tongue

00:52:00.840 by senior officials at gac on february 24th

00:52:05.880 with respect to interference in the 2019 and 21 elections uh based on the yes that is correct

00:52:11.960 okay thank you for that um madam minister it's been more than six months since we learned of

00:52:21.400 illegal police stations operating in canada by beijing we just learned in the last 24 hours

00:52:27.800 that there are two operating in montreal one in broussard one in montreal within 30 minutes

00:52:34.280 of your riding and yet six months later election interference illegal police stations tough talk

00:52:43.000 but not a single diplomat expelled why not so when it comes to police stations the rcmp has

00:52:53.800 confirmed that they have been closed and so my colleague minister of public safety has also

00:52:59.400 given a lot of information on that aspect before of course we will not tolerate any form of

00:53:06.440 foreign interference including police stations. I've been having many

00:53:10.460 conversations with my colleagues around the world on this issue particularly

00:53:14.120 Tony Blinken again last week and we will work with within the five eyes to

00:53:20.840 identify any form of foreign difference including one visa one visa denied not a

00:53:26.840 single diplomat expelled hardly the actions of the government that takes

00:53:32.000 Beijing's interference seriously minister when you last appeared before this

00:53:37.280 committee on December 13th you said repeatedly unequivocally but you had no

00:53:43.700 information about Beijing's interference in the 2019 and 21 elections how is it

00:53:50.300 that the Globe and Mail and Global News have information based on their review

00:53:57.200 of CSIS documents about significant interference by Beijing in the 2019 and 21 elections,

00:54:04.300 but you, as Minister of Foreign Affairs, know nothing.

00:54:07.600 How is that possible?

00:54:09.200 Well, when it comes to activities of foreign actors in the country,

00:54:14.540 the Foreign Affairs Minister was not made aware.

00:54:17.680 And since then, I've made sure that that changed, that that would not be the case,

00:54:22.020 because obviously, as everybody around this table would be aware,

00:54:25.600 it is important you were you didn't know anything in december can i just finish my sentence please

00:54:30.640 michael so obviously in the context as colleagues around this table would agree uh as minister

00:54:38.880 foreign affairs i need to make sure that i have access to that information in order to conduct

00:54:44.720 our diplomatic relationships in a good way in the Canadian's interest.

00:54:55.040 Mr. Turnbull.

00:54:56.720 Thanks Madam Chair and let me just say to the ministers my apologies for what you've had to

00:55:01.360 witness today in this committee in terms of the condescending tone and I apologize on behalf of

00:55:06.880 my colleagues because I don't think they will but um just I'll start off with the comment or a

00:55:12.800 question to you minister leblanc have you read the recent morris rosenberg report

00:55:20.080 uh yes i have and i've had an opportunity also to discuss with mr rosenberg his recommendations

00:55:26.480 and the nature of the work that he did late last fall as well thank you um i noticed uh in the

00:55:32.000 rosenberg report that there was specific reference in a footnote on page 26 that

00:55:37.760 uh three of the political parties participated in the uh briefings during the last election

00:55:44.800 and all continued to support a panel composed of senior public servants what i found interesting

00:55:49.440 about it was that it was noted that the bloc quebecois uh didn't participate in those briefings

00:55:55.760 did you do you find that surprising uh mr turnbull i i think uh i saw the leader of the bloc

00:56:04.400 explaining at some point why they chose not to participate we think it's important that

00:56:10.320 all political parties designate senior campaign officials who can receive the appropriate security

00:56:16.240 clearances and be briefed directly by non-partisan senior officials responsible for monitoring and

00:56:24.720 enforcing canadian law including obviously countering foreign interference so we thought

00:56:30.640 this was an important part of our protecting democracy initiative we certainly intend to

00:56:36.560 continue making available to political parties and their representatives a chance to participate in

00:56:44.000 this process we think it strengthens as some previous questions have identified the overall

00:56:49.360 public confidence in the measures the government of canada is taking to protect institutions

00:56:56.240 thank you for that response I think I agree with you that it does add to the transparency and the

00:57:03.980 overall confidence that Canadians have in our electoral process and I think that's a good

00:57:10.640 thing and I hope that all political parties would participate in those briefings especially when

00:57:16.220 they later are claiming that somehow our government is not serious about foreign election interference

00:57:21.000 so mr. Leblanc though I want to ask you do you intend to implement the

00:57:26.560 recommendations from the Rosenberg report of course we do the answer is yes

00:57:33.140 we had done that following the report done by Jim Judd former director of CSIS

00:57:39.900 as well after the 2019 election the Prime Minister committed publicly on

00:57:46.280 Monday evening, and I even had a chance to talk with the clerk yesterday and again this

00:57:51.680 morning. He assigned her and me a little bit of homework to look at, obviously, the Rosenberg,

00:58:00.060 the 16 recommendations Mr. Rosenberg made, look at the Judd report again to take a constat,

00:58:07.800 to take a look at how we had evolved for the 2021 election, but look at reports from the

00:58:13.500 National Security Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians some members here

00:58:16.740 have sat or sit on that group and come back to the Prime Minister with a public

00:58:22.620 report to him within 30 days of Monday we had a discussion is it 30 working days

00:58:28.980 sitting days calendar days we're just going to err on the side of doing it as

00:58:33.240 quickly as possible Mr. Turnbull thank you for that and that's great and great

00:58:37.260 to hear because I've read the report and there's quite a few really good

00:58:40.980 recommendations i think they're in there that we can benefit from uh in terms of foreign interference

00:58:46.260 reports on foreign interference have been uh i think it's been reported for over a decade

00:58:52.980 so why do you think that we've only really seen action starting in 2015 mr lubang well madam chair

00:59:02.740 through you to mr turnbull um i've said a number of times in the house of commons that we have taken

00:59:07.460 this issue seriously since we formed government you're right to note that previous public reports

00:59:14.420 by cesus uh go back over a decade uh to 2013 mr harper's former national security advisor was

00:59:23.220 talking publicly on national television networks even a few years before so this is not new uh in

00:59:30.260 the last few years it's certainly not unique to canada as i said um we wanted to take a strong

00:59:37.060 robust approach which we've continued to evolve the leader of the opposition i thought you were

00:59:41.860 in the house earlier this week offered an interesting take when he was minister responsible

00:59:46.020 for democratic institutions these reports were public he had taken no action himself as minister

00:59:53.060 responsible for democratic institutions and in sort of a smart little quip to his second question

00:59:58.580 he said to me oh that's okay because it wasn't benefiting the conservative party i thought that

01:00:03.540 But that was a rather perverse way to look at one's public responsibilities.

01:00:06.920 Thank you.

01:00:09.920 Madame Goudreau, two minutes and a minute.

01:00:14.980 Two and a half minutes.

01:00:16.200 So I'll come back to my previous question.

01:00:19.080 Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

01:00:20.080 Minister, here's what I'd like to know.

01:00:22.040 I said earlier, we're among ourselves here.

01:00:25.120 How do the exchanges of information occur between the prime minister, the site task force?

01:00:33.420 How do you operate to ensure that everyone is kept abreast of everything pertinent?

01:00:39.520 I believe there have been changes made.

01:00:41.580 I'd like to hear your feedback.

01:00:43.660 Well, I just want to understand what you're saying or asking.

01:00:49.240 You're saying what kind of dialogue do I have with the Prime Minister?

01:00:53.640 Well, what are the rules?

01:00:55.780 What are the goalposts to ensure that you are kept abreast and that there's communication

01:01:04.240 with the commit, with the site task force, with the Prime Minister?

01:01:08.840 How frequently do you speak to them?

01:01:12.640 Well, I get briefed a lot.

01:01:16.340 Oftentimes in person in Ottawa, there are secret briefings.

01:01:21.620 Sometimes I get briefings when I'm on the road.

01:01:24.900 I am on the road, and sometimes when I'm on the road with the Prime Minister, well then

01:01:30.400 someone briefs us.

01:01:32.560 Those briefings can be on anything and everything to do with foreign affairs, both domestically

01:01:38.640 and abroad.

01:01:39.680 My goal as Minister of Foreign Affairs is to keep abreast of what's happening on the

01:01:43.540 world stage, such that we can properly conduct our diplomatic efforts and protect our country

01:01:54.620 and its integrity under our indo-pacific strategy we observed that one we needed to increase our

01:02:01.900 capacity vis-a-vis China we and that's why we earmarked 2.3 billion dollars to increase our

01:02:10.780 presence in the region augment our capacity and we recognized that the RCMP and CSIS needed to

01:02:19.660 do more too in order to manage issues of foreign interference.

01:02:24.760 And that's why we invested $88 million to fund staffing efforts.

01:02:31.100 The Europeans, the Americans, other nations in the world are discovering the same things

01:02:36.040 that we are.

01:02:38.380 I discussed the issues with Penny Wong, the Minister of Foreign Affairs for Australia

01:02:43.500 recently, because Australia had to come to grips with the similar issues in the past

01:02:48.420 And I did that with a view to getting a better understanding.

01:02:53.780 Well, thank you so much, Chair.

01:02:55.740 And my question is going to be to Minister LeBlanc.

01:03:00.120 But before I ask that question, I just want to say as a woman politician,

01:03:04.380 I remember at the very beginning of my career being asked if I was tough enough to do the job.

01:03:09.820 And I think it's absolutely devastating that that sort of frame of reference would be used in this way.

01:03:17.720 I believe a minister has a position of power regardless of gender identity and

01:03:22.940 that should be respected and I'm sure that internationally it is and I think

01:03:26.900 it's shameful that that was even said in this place so I just wanted to put that

01:03:30.680 on the record so thank you Rachel for this through you chair to Minister LeBlanc

01:03:36.560 you know when I look at where we're at right now we know that Canadians are

01:03:41.900 are rightly concerned and that our political system our electoral system is being discussed

01:03:48.780 in the around kitchen tables because people are not sure if they can trust our institutions anymore

01:03:55.100 we know that many people with a lot of experience richard faden jean-pierre kingsley gerald butts

01:04:04.900 Arthur Wilczynski, even my leader Jagmeet Singh have all asked for a public inquiry.

01:04:12.400 Because I fundamentally believe that it needs to be transparent, public, and independent.

01:04:18.300 Right now, what is happening is we're seeing all of this debated and fought out in a very public, political realm.

01:04:25.220 And it's extremely partisan.

01:04:27.340 And that does concern me.

01:04:28.640 Because if we're going to have Canadians trust our systems, we need to have processes that engender faith and belief.

01:04:38.760 And right now we have a feeling that the government is hiding something.

01:04:43.100 We have the Conservative Party creating a lot of fear that is telling people you just have to stop trusting what we should all trust.

01:04:50.920 And we're not focusing on how do we strengthen our systems in an ever-changing reality of foreign interference from many, many countries.

01:05:00.180 So I'm just wondering if you can explain to me why the Prime Minister says that if the Special Rapporteur says we need a public inquiry, we're going to do that.

01:05:09.000 Why are we waiting?

01:05:10.400 Why are the systems and everything that is being proposed by your government not allowing for that transparency, public and independent frame?

01:05:17.480 uh well madam madam chair uh through you miss blaney thank you for the question but also thank

01:05:24.360 you for your comments about the inappropriate comments that mr cooper made earlier um i would

01:05:30.360 agree with you that canadians need to have a robust and pervasive trust in their democratic

01:05:36.040 institutions that's precisely why we have taken a series of incremental measures every election

01:05:42.520 including the non-partisan professional public service nobody around this table would imagine

01:05:50.000 that the clerk of the Privy Council the head of Canada's public service is a partisan figure

01:05:54.500 and when he or she for example chaired the protocol or testified before this committee

01:06:00.520 or made public comments along with other senior officials it's precisely designed to restore that

01:06:06.440 confidence but we believe and I know Madam Chair we're out of time we believe Ms. Blaney that

01:06:10.740 But the Special Rapporteur is again another step in depoliticizing this conversation and

01:06:17.560 pointing a path forward that hopefully takes us to the place that I think you and I want

01:06:22.860 to get to and that other colleagues have referred to where we can have a thoughtful conversation

01:06:27.640 around strengthening davantage our institutions.

01:06:31.820 Thank you so much for that.

01:06:33.920 With that, I would like to thank all of you for coming.

01:06:37.480 we don't always have enough time to answer the questions because we've run

01:06:40.360 out of time so quickly we're welcome you to send us any answers or extensions of

01:06:45.280 answers in writing to the clerk and we'll share those around with that we

01:06:48.700 won't have a lot of time left here so we're continuing our meeting quickly and

01:06:52.120 we thank you for making time to come and we'll see you soon have a great day

01:06:56.980 appreciate it to you and your teams just because we have limited times and I know

01:07:00.760 interpreters I'm already pushing it so I apologize we have resources confirmed

01:07:05.800 from 4 30 to 6 30 p.m. we will be returning to this room 025 B I will be

01:07:13.420 here shortly before 4 30 and we will be here 4 30 to 6 30 unless we can get out

01:07:18.340 faster but those resources have been confirmed so just a reminder to all

01:07:22.480 members that we're coming back for that miss O'Connell point of order madam chair

01:07:26.620 thank you madam chair um i appreciate ms blaney for pointing it out but i am rising i have a

01:07:38.540 point of order in regards to the conduct of mr cooper and his comments i think any woman sitting

01:07:44.060 around this room i'm sure men have can appreciate it and understand it too the constant demeaning 0.63

01:07:51.280 nature that only occurs to our female minister that appeared today yesterday it was another

01:07:58.680 member of our team asking a question in qp and a conservative member said she deserved

01:08:04.600 a participation medal today it was a question of whether this minister is tough enough every

01:08:10.700 single day we sit in this house as women and we hear these they're called microaggressions

01:08:19.460 but they don't feel very micro to continuously be undermined and I think he owes this committee

01:08:24.860 and the minister in particular an apology and I'm really sick and tired of sitting in here

01:08:30.520 having to listen to it. I am sick and tired of Canadians having to see it and I'm really sick

01:08:36.960 and tired of the conservatives just not getting it. Mrs. Romanato. Thank you very much Madam Chair

01:08:46.380 and i too i'm really disappointed i want to know if that member opposite when then prime minister

01:08:54.220 stephen harper confronted vladimir putin and said get out of ukraine did that member opposite say

01:09:00.620 was he tough enough that was completely unacceptable unacceptable behavior for

01:09:05.900 every woman that has ever taken her place in this house and i demand an apology understanding order

01:09:11.100 18 mr. Fergus I would just say be mindful of the volume for speakers and I

01:09:18.840 just tapped it with my pencil sorry mr. Turnbull was finished I didn't realize

01:09:25.500 it was on the list but I'm sure I think it was oh mr. mr. Fergus my apologies

01:09:32.280 Indeed, me too.

01:09:37.900 I demand an apology from the member in question.

01:09:44.180 That's about it.

01:09:45.180 As a man who is very sensitive to these issues, such as discrimination, and just like my colleague

01:10:05.360 Ms O'Connell said, this smacks of microaggressions.

01:10:11.240 when you are the victim it's much much much more than a microaggression it is a macroaggression

01:10:17.560 and i hope that it'll be decent enough to make an apology especially the the very day after

01:10:24.580 international women's day to boot i thank you for that i i will just remind all members that

01:10:32.440 especially when we're having and it shouldn't be cool if it's not in public we should just

01:10:36.400 be mindful as to the work that we're doing um yeah there's a lot of things around this place

01:10:43.360 that make me puke in my mouth often so it's really unfortunate we can be better than this so i'll

01:10:48.400 leave it at that and if anybody wants to act on the comments we can figure that out later

01:10:53.520 just in a quick second since we are coming back at 4 30 this committee is also tasked with

01:10:58.400 redistribution so amongst our ways of finding a way forward i did try to have one day for

01:11:03.440 redistribution one day for this study obviously that's not the approach the committee wants to

01:11:08.720 take and i know there's questions being asked by our colleagues when do we get to come i don't have

01:11:13.520 answers for them because i would like us all to find a way forward the reports that are ready for

01:11:18.560 me to present when we return to the house after constituency week i will present them in the house

01:11:26.640 and as i've been asked i usually do i'll give the vice chairs a heads up that i am presenting them

01:11:32.240 So with that, I would really encourage us to be mindful of the topic of the day

01:11:36.420 and what's important, why we're here.

01:11:39.020 And I'll see you at 4.30 in this room.

01:11:41.680 Take care.

01:11:42.520 And I'm suspending.

Juno News - March 09, 2023

China Hearings ｜ LeBlanc and Joly testify on Chinese election interference allegations

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