China Hearings ｜ LeBlanc and Joly testify on Chinese election interference allegations
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 11 minutes
Words per minute
150.62114
Harmful content
Misogyny
1
sentences flagged
Hate speech
17
sentences flagged
Summary
In this episode, the Speaker of the House of Commons, Peter Cooper, and the Clerk of the Commons, Elizabeth May, discuss the lack of resources from the Commons and whether or not they can be used to solve the problem at hand.
Transcript
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We can have them out, return from 1 to 1.30, find our way forward.
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this afternoon's resources at the current time unless there is a cancellation whips can come
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together to determine what meeting's being cancelled and if we can return what i have also
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said is that if we cannot find a time this afternoon i am more than willing to ask for
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resources next week because the house is not sitting and we're not competing against them
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but right now between the clerk and myself to get time to use resources from the house of commons
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i have provided you an upfront update and where we are this afternoon right now it's not in our hands
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but if something happens organically like something is camp cancelled we would for
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sure ask for the resources the first time it was said here whether everyone wanted it or not
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right away i signal to the clerk please ask to see if there's any resources available
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and she maintains trying to see what's available and the minute we know we would share it
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thank you madam chair i think you've been more than clear of what the resources that
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are available and what are outside of your control despite mr cooper's temper tantrum
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at the end of the day it was this committee that asked ministers to appear they have appeared
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so why would we not hear them out if the conservatives are actually interested in
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answers and they should be all for asking their questions getting it on the record instead of
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them playing these games once again taking their toys and going home I think Canadians want to
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hear from the ministers again this is what was asked we're prepared to do so and then get back
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to the debate of the motions at hand if the conservatives want to play games once again
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want to throw temper tantrums then we'll continue to do that and the ministers can go on with their
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day but this is what this committee asked them to appear to do they are here and i think it
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behooves us to actually get on with the work of this committee instead of more and more you know
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okay can then we just do uh have unanimous consent motion i propose unanimous consent
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motion that we will continue after the ministers and return at 4 30 after question period
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so i i can i can take that but i would not be genuine because right now we don't have
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resources at 4 30. what i'm saying is the way this place functions is that whips on each of
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our teams is welcome to come together choose what they want to cancel and committee can meet
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between the clerk and myself i can't commit to coming back at 4 30 until i have resources
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well i recommend that we do that and have good faith that you're going to figure it out and
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that the whips will do their job right i'm it's fascinating because we keep questioning if you
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can have faith in me and then you're asking me to have faith in the conversation i won't be part of
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i'm on in public telling you i think it's an important conversation i think we can find a
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way forward the longer this takes the longer it takes for the ministers to come here the harder
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it is for us to get back at one and then to actually push the resources we're already pushing
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so i believe do we have agreement let me know that we have ministers appear and then we go back into
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this conversation right after to find a way forward if by then the whips have figured out a way to
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cancel another meeting and meet at 4 30 perfect if not what i'm committing is i'll find you a time
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next week whenever you want to meet and we can continue this conversation during the constituency
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week because then we're not it's not the whips who decide that between the clerk and i we can
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try to push and get some resources like we have for the other 106 floors that have happened
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so rather than it be a 1064 for anybody watching emergency meeting we can actually plan when we're
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doing it and then work around our schedules i think that's reasonable mr cooper just to be
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crystal clear if the majority of whips ensure that there are resources available at 4 30 this
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afternoon are you going to be here and our liberal mp is going to show up so it's interesting enough
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that you would say that mr cooper i made that same comment to the clerk and the clerk said
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she's not sure how that stuff functions what she does know is we don't have resources right now
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and what the house has told us is that whips can determine the way forward and so therefore i am
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as a chair does taking process advice from the clerk and doing my job as the chair of this
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committee and so therefore i'm on the record telling you what my intentions are there's just
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certain things i can't i can't control them and if i could i would have a lot of wishes i can tell
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you and one of them would be to ensure canadians actually had full confidence in our systems
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so with that mr turnbull just really quick i think we're wasting the precious time that we
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had dedicated to hearing from a panel of ministers because of this we will come back when we can when
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when the resources are available so let's get on with questioning the ministers if if members are
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truly serious about getting to the bottom of this and getting answers then why are we wasting the
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time of ministers let's move on i'm going to propose it is currently 1078 um we can have
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ministers leave it sorry 1208 i'm ready for this to yeah 1208 i can offer you minister's
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stay for one hour or we ask ministers leave at one o'clock would you like ministers to stay for
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one hour or would you like ministers to leave in at 12 12 at one o'clock mr cooper madam chair i
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just want to put on the record that opposition whips have agreed to coming back at 4 30 and free
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up necessary resources so i i want to put that on the record and therefore i want your assurance
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but you're going to be here at 4 30 along with liberal mps so when my clerk tells me that and
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i know it i will go from there so can we get this so i would like the ministers here for the full
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hour what i certainly hope we'll be back here at 4 30 and if we aren't i guess we'll deal with that
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then we will get it dealt with for sure um is there anybody who's opposed to having ministers
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here for one hour i would ask that so we're adjourning this part of the meeting starting
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the next meeting and coming back to we suspend um okay we'll suspend and we will just take you
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know what nobody gets a wash and break we're just gonna get the panel switched over and everyone
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deal with it i guess and welcome ministers please come in and join us we will continue
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our meeting and everybody should be in their seats in literally two minutes because i will
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continue the meeting thank you and thank you for coming accompanying the ministers today we have
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from the department of foreign affairs trade and development tara denham director general
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office of human rights freedoms and inclusion jenny chen executive director greater china
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political and coordination and from the prairie council office alan sutherland assistant secretary
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to the cabinet machinery of government and democratic institutions a reminder all comments
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are to go through the chair and the better you keep this meeting going the faster it goes so
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a lot of it's also in your hands with that ministers if you can signal me who would like
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to go first and if we can always keep our comments tight um ministry it's a pleasure to have you back
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thank you for taking the time the floor is yours thank you madam chairperson i'm delighted to see
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everyone here today madam chair members of the committee thank you inviting me to discuss this
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very important issue the government of canada takes allegations of interference and coercive
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diplomacy by foreign agents no matter where they come from very seriously enjoy ensuring the
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security of canadians and protecting our democratic institutions are top priorities for the government
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We do not tolerate interference in our democracy and elections. Never, ever.
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Canadians should never feel unsafe or threatened, especially if they are part of a community that puts them at risk.
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All Canadians should feel able to participate in our civil society and democracy without fear of reprisal and with confidence.
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Madame Chair, the work this committee is doing is critical.
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Democracy is a choice. It is often a fight, and it takes work every day to defend and promote it.
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Canada's democracy is among the strongest and the most stable in the world.
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This stability is the basis for the safety, prosperity, and growth that our citizens enjoy.
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It is worth protecting, and this should never be a partisan issue.
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Reports of Chinese interference in the 2021 Canadian general election are deeply troubling.
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We have been clear with China, both here at home and in other fora internationally, that
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Canada will never tolerate any form of foreign interference either in our democracy or in
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I have made this point repeatedly with China, including last week when I met with my Chinese
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counterpart. We will never accept any infringement of our sovereignty nor any violation by Chinese
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diplomats of the Viena Convention on Canadian Soil. I will repeat this in English. Canada will
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never tolerate any form of foreign interference in our democracy nor in our internal affairs.
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We will never accept any breach of our territorial integrity and sovereignty and we will never
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except any breach by Chinese diplomats of the Vienna Convention on Canada's soil.
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I have conveyed this to my Chinese counterparts on numerous occasions,
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Senior officials in my department have also repeatedly delivered this message in recent weeks and months.
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We have told them directly, unequivocally, that we will not tolerate any form of interference.
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We will continue to do what is necessary to defend our national security and national interest.
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The question of foreign interference is not one that is unique to Canada.
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This is something that our partners and allies around the world are grappling with.
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And as foreign ministers, my counterparts and I work together to share best practices in countering foreign threats to democracy.
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China's rise as a global actor is reshaping the strategic outlook of every state in the region,
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including Canada. I've said it before and I will say it again. China is an increasingly disruptive
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global power. We have been very clear about our approach with China in our Indo-Pacific strategy.
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we will china challenge we will challenge china when we ought to and we will cooperate
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when we must we will never hold back from sharing our concerns and principles we will
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never apologize for defending our national interest and as we forge ahead with a strong
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multi-dimensional approach to china we will always differentiate between the chinese government
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we at Global Affairs Canada are deepening our understanding
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how it exerts its influence in the region and around the world.
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Key embassies in our network will be staffed with specialized experts
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to deepen our understanding of the challenges China faces
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This will be the focus of our diplomatic efforts and the work has already begun.
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We are also doing more to protect Canadian infrastructure, democracy and Canadian citizens
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This includes modernising the Investment Canada Act, protecting our critical mineral supply
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chains and preserving Canadian intellectual property and research.
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We are increasing the resources of our security infrastructure to protect Canadians from clandestine
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We are also strengthening Canada's ability to effectively collect, develop and deliver
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intelligence, analysis and assessments to better understand the threats of foreign interference,
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hostile activities by state actors and economic coercion.
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We will continue to take this issue seriously, very seriously, and work at multiple levels
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to shield our democratic institutions from foreign interference.
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And so thank you for giving me this opportunity to have a discussion with you and answer your
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Now, Minister LeBlanc, you get four and a half minutes.
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Madam Chair, I'll endeavor to finish in less than that.
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I'd like to thank you, Madam Chairperson, once again for today's invitation.
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You've already introduced my colleague, Al Sutherland.
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I reiterate what my colleague, the Foreign Affairs Minister, said.
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Protecting our democracy and democratic institutions against threats of foreign interference is critical.
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It's critical to our government and to all Canadians.
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we obviously don't tolerate in any form foreign interference or attempts to undermine
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democratic processes in canada that's why the prime minister announced on monday evening the
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appointment of an independent special reporter who will have a wide mandate to formulate specific
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recommendations on the protection of our democracy in the coming weeks he or she will be asked to
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inform the work of the national security and intelligence committee of parliamentarians and
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of the National Security Intelligence and Review Agency, as well as other processes
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underway to identify gaps in our system and further advice, obviously, on how to close
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It's important for Canadians to know all the steps that we are taking to protect Canadians
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This committee has heard from various witnesses last week that clarified the nature of intelligence
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and how important context is in order to get a complete picture.
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And I would like to repeat here and now that the strong process that is in place when national
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security organisations get their hands on intelligence may have a bearing on our national
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public safety and those protections have been put in place it's important for canadians to
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understand all the steps that we are taking to protect canadians and our democracy frankly with
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canadians on the threats facing the country and by continuing to adapt our measures to that evolving
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threat this issue is not new and it's not unique to canada as well public threats were reported by
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the communication security establishment and by the canadian security intelligence services for
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over a decade and they have identified concerns of foreign interference and threats to democratic
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institutions all our allies around the world including our five eyes partners are concerned
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about the threats of foreign states working to advance their interests and to undermine ours
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Threats that are designed to continue to undermine Canada's security, democracy, and social fabric.
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But equally, Madam Chair, Canada is recognized as having stepped up as a global leader in responding to election interference.
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We've taken a number of steps since the election in 2015, and we continue to build on these actions
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because threats to our democracy continue to evolve, and so, therefore, must our responses.
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Madam Chair, we've talked about the Critical Election Incident Public Protocol, a senior
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committee of public servants, many of whom testified before this committee last week.
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This protocol established the panel, which is designed to provide Canadians with a non-partisan
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transparent process where these public servants can communicate clearly and impartially with
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Canadians during an election in the event of an incident or series of incidents that
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that threaten the integrity of a federal election.
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Madame Chairperson, although a lot of attention has been given to the composition of this
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task force, there are cabinet directives on the protocol which clearly set out that as
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soon as national security organisations get wind of foreign interference in a general
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it is incumbent upon them to examine all options
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to address the issue effectively, efficiently, immediately.
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Dependent evaluation of the protocol was recently completed
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We are actively considering the recommendations made by Mr Rosenberg
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with a view to continually improving our measures
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to protect institutions, as I said, from foreign interference.
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that we will release a plan for the implementation of recommendations from Mr. Rosenberg, as
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These are but a few examples, Madam Chair, of actions our government has taken and will
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continue to take to protect Canadian democracy.
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And now, obviously, Melanie and I are very enthusiastic to answer all your questions.
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Six-minute rounds, starting with Mr. Bertholdt.
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Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson. Ministers and your staff, thank you for being here.
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Minister, you made a statement earlier, we will never tolerate foreign interference in Canada.
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You're good at strong rhetoric that strike us as being firm, but I'd like to know from your mouth
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how many Beijing diplomats have been expelled by your department or by the federal government
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in 2018? Response. Thank you very much. I'd be pleased to respond to that question.
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Not only are my statements heartfelt and strong, but they have a lot to do with the government's
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undertaking. Well, how many diplomats were expelled in 2018? I'm attempting to answer
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that, so if you'll just allow me to do so. First, when it comes to engagements with China,
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as Minister of Foreign Affairs, I have a number of tools at my disposal. And to respond directly
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to your question, if there are any diplomats who violate the Vienna Convention or Canadian
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law, I will never hesitate for a moment to expel them.
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Well, let's make this simple, says Mr Berthold. Let's make this simple. I have a quick, I
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a straightforward question i'm just going to bring up what we all know is that mr bertold is
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talking over the minister if he wants to get responses to his questions i think we should be
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able to hear the minister's response thank you so i am going to state at the beginning of my
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comments i was very clear that if we cannot have a good conversation all comments colleagues
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ministers everyone alike goes through the chair don't affect to no commentary all comments go
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through the chairperson if we can't take turns they do when there's one person speaking at a time
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i think also i recognize time does belong to members but to be actually pretending like this
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is a courtroom and going back and forth also doesn't help because on one side we're saying
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this is a very important conversation and we all want to get there and then the other time we're
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kind of trying to make a show out of it and so i think we should be mindful about how we answer
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questions as i asked earlier to both yourselves just let's just try to keep it tight the whole
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concept of thinking for a question or whatever else i guess today it's not needed we just said
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it once at the beginning we'll say at the end we'll go on our way so we'll get ask questions
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answer questions as factual as possible, and we can make this work.
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How many diplomats were expelled by the Government of Canada in 2018, Chinese diplomats?
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As Foreign Minister, as I said to you, I have several tools in my toolbox at my disposal
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to manage relationships with various countries, including China.
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Therefore, what we did, I assume that's what you want to know, Madam Chairperson, Madam
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Chairperson, can I take back the floor, please?
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I asked a question in relation to 2018, I understand there were no expulsions then.
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Well, my dear colleague, as far as diplomatic relations are concerned, it's important to
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understand that, of course, the Vienna Convention must be upheld.
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it to be violated, we will expel those diplomats. That much is clear. Madam Minister, Madam
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Minister, Madam Chairperson, Madam Chairperson, through you, I understand that I'm not getting
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an answer about 2019. 2021, how many diplomats were expelled? Response. Well, it's an ounce
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of prevention is worth a pound of cure. What we can do, and this was in the news this morning,
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very this morning we can deny visas madam chairperson madam chairperson 2021 in 2022 in 2023
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i'm doing my best madam chairperson there's more time we take like this the less time we actually
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have and so i just really do want to find a way forward please let's maximize our time all of us
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mr turnbull on a point of order i just want the minister to be able to be given the space
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and time to respond to the questions that mr bertold is posing i think it's important
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he has important questions but i think he should be equally interested in the answers that he's
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getting i think some of us do want that unfortunately the way this place functions
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is not functional because members do believe they own the time and therefore there are some
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processes that work that would be equal time for the question and the answer because, well,
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If we can just give a bit of leeway to our witnesses, the witnesses need a little bit
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of time to offer up an answer to each other and find a way forward.
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So I will just say your time is limited and if this is going to keep being interrupted
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then I'm going to have to let the clock run rather than keep pausing it.
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Madam Chairperson, I haven't used the time as I would have liked to,
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and the figure I've got from the Minister is zero.
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And we can see that this cover-up campaign is still underway.
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It's all well and good to say we're going to do X, Y and Z.
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We're going to be strong in the face of China.
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There was not a single diplomat expelled despite the numerous briefings that have taken place over a good many years.
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Second question, when did the minister learn of the existence of Chinese police stations in Quebec?
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Response. Let me just come back to your previous question, colleague.
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Each and every time that we make a decision in relation to another country, including China,
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China, we think about an important sacrosanct rule and that is reciprocity.
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Every time we make a decision about diplomats here on Canadian soil, that has a bearing
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Now when it comes to protecting, specifically when it comes to protecting Canadians who
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are on Chinese soil. We saw this play out with the two Michaels.
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Madame Chairperson, I understand the principle, says Mr. Berthold. It's important to know
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The interpreter must suspend service as it is impossible to interpret.
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Unfortunately, I didn't get any answers to any of the questions I asked.
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Point of order, Madam Chair, I don't know if you have your earpiece in but the interpreter
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has been so frustrated by this interaction that they have said that they are refusing
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interpretation and so therefore I don't think it's fair to continue questions in this way
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if we can't properly understand what's happening in committee.
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It's a matter of privilege for me to be able to understand the interaction.
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can the interpretation resume yes it can can you hear me it's working
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listen the first round's always the toughest so i just want to get to the next person i'm
00:27:02.660
going to let you know and i think we mr berthold has been clear with his intentions and i think
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you have been here wrong enough that you know how this works there's certain things i can't do so
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I think if it is just what he wants to do, I think that speaks to what he wants to do.
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I don't like expersions being cast about my way, my line of questioning.
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But Madam Chairperson, for the last time, how many diplomats are expelled from Canada by the federal government since 2015?
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If there are ever Chinese diplomats that flout the Vienna Convention, then and there we will
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take action. In the meantime, here's what we've done. We have denied visas. We have castigated
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the Chinese ambassador on a number of occasions. We've made representations to Beijing directly,
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and we have attempted to protect Canadian staff on Chinese soil.
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There's a principle, Madam Chairperson, equal share of time.
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The Minister is taking much of my time in an effort to avoid responding to my question,
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the question is just so important that I must respond fulsomely.
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Well, Minister, what concrete action did you take
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against any diplomat whatsoever on Canadian soil
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But the first thing that we did, of course, says Minister Jolly,
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is to broach our Chinese counterparts about election interference.
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Hopefully I can get some answers to some of the great questions
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but we couldn't hear uh the interaction properly so i think i will give the floor black back to
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minister jolly because i think it's really important to understand um the mindset or the
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calculation that gac has to take when making decisions what types of decisions does uh
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global affairs and yourself and your department take when you are made aware of these types of
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problem some interferences in our relations thank you thank you madam chair and thank you
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dear colleague so hold them so first and foremost obviously this is an issue that we've been dealing
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with for some time and i've been foreign minister now since 2021 and one of the things that was
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really important was to have a clear stance on china and so what we did in our indo-pacific
00:30:18.340
strategy was actually to make sure that we would draw our red lines and how we would be engaging
00:30:24.180
with china and now since it's extremely clear we now have our roles of engagement but before then
00:30:31.860
as we were dealing with obviously diplomats that we expect that they stay in their lane
00:30:38.200
if there are any issues with any form of violation of the vienna convention of canadian law whatsoever
00:30:47.180
first and foremost we engage directly with China because that's what G7
00:30:52.640
countries do it is in our national interest to do so it is in our allies
00:30:57.680
interest to do so as a geopolitical situation is extremely complicated and
00:31:02.000
getting more complicated the other thing we do is I since Canadians had concern
00:31:07.580
I clearly instructed my department to call in the ambassadors and make sure
00:31:14.500
also that our ambassador jennifer may in beijing would be in contact with the ministry of foreign
00:31:21.540
affairs in china that has happened many many many times in the past year and so the other thing also
00:31:31.620
when china wanted to send a political operative last fall we decided to deny a visa which obviously
00:31:39.380
is the right thing to do but these are the different actions that we've put into place
0.75
00:31:46.580
and let me tell you if we have any form of clear evidence of any wrongdoing we would send we will
00:31:54.020
send diplomats packing very very very quickly is do you feel at this point it would be in the best
0.87
00:32:04.420
interest of Canadians um and our institutions to expel all Chinese diplomats see I know that on
00:32:12.740
the side of the conservative this is something that is an easy fix a quick fix but the reality
00:32:18.820
is is when we take that decision it has an impact on us also in China for any expulsion there is an
00:32:27.540
expulsion afterwards for uh of us in china and right now our biggest challenge is to understand
00:32:38.020
how china operates how they plan how they work and i believe profoundly in the importance of
00:32:44.660
diplomacy in our diplomats more than ever we need capacity we need eyes and ears on the ground like
00:32:52.400
We need to be able to address and defend national interests
00:33:06.340
And so we know we have considered cases with China.
00:33:15.040
And so that is why it is important that we have
00:33:18.940
capacity in Beijing and across our network in China.
00:33:22.940
How important was it, in the case of the two Michaels,
00:33:25.620
to have diplomats on the ground in China present?
00:33:37.840
was instrumental in making sure that the two Michaels came
00:33:42.700
And you guys all have consular cases in your office.
00:33:46.700
I have the chance to talk to many of you about it.
00:33:49.620
You know how much it's difficult when a citizen,
00:33:52.660
or one of your constituents, comes to you and says,
00:33:58.580
or a family member of mine is in a difficult situation
00:34:05.140
Of course, we want to make sure to offer that service.
00:34:12.340
You mentioned in your introductory remarks about the G20 foreign minister's meeting that you just had.
00:34:22.320
How was, what was the delivery of that message?
00:34:25.700
What did you say and how was that message received?
00:34:28.940
I wanted to make sure that I was able to meet with my counterpart.
00:34:34.640
I had a conversation and a relationship, a tough one, with Wang Yi, the former foreign minister who's now at the Politburo.
00:34:42.340
And now I wanted to create this relationship which is a difficult one but a necessary one
00:34:55.600
I was not the only one wanting to talk to him because obviously all my G7 counterparts
00:35:01.580
and even I would say G19 counterparts wanted to engage.
00:35:10.560
I looked at him in the eyes and said to him, first, we will never tolerate any form of
00:35:14.920
foreign interference in our democracy and internal affairs, and second, we will never
00:35:22.000
tolerate any form of breach of our sovereignty.
00:35:27.060
And so that is why I think it's important to have these tough discussions.
00:35:31.100
They're not something that we like doing, but I think it's necessary for Canadians.
00:35:38.200
madame goodrow six minutes six minutes miss good rule thank you very much madam chairperson i was
00:35:43.960
waiting for this moment and here it's come we discussed this this week and we're among ourselves
00:35:50.040
each other so we can speak freely we have six minutes my constituents want to know we all
00:35:57.800
wanted to know what on what basis did we opt for a special reporter rather than together in a
00:36:08.280
non-partisanship way in full cognizance with a view to not undermining the confidence and trust
00:36:14.200
of Canadians and Quebecers why choose a special reporter rather than leaving it up to us to choose
00:36:20.920
together to demonstrate our good faith I'd like to know the justification the argument behind that
00:36:26.600
the rationale. Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson. Thank you, Ms Goudreau.
00:36:31.240
Now, in the last 40 minutes that we've been here, it's been a clear demonstration that
00:36:37.800
taking partisanship out of the mix ain't no easy matter. And we've seen this in question
00:36:43.800
in a period too. And I share what you've said in the House of Commons, what your colleagues have
00:36:49.720
too, that Canada will be well served with a nonpartisan transparent probe that Canadians
00:36:58.280
can follow so that they can get a sense of the nature of the interference, what we've
00:37:03.800
done as a government. We believe we have a good track record, but we need to strengthen
00:37:08.800
it further. We've already done so. And the whole idea behind a special rapporteur is
00:37:15.060
to very quickly define the steps that need to follow.
00:37:20.400
Had we immediately struck a commission of inquiry, the question would have been, how
00:37:34.200
We were asked to act in short order, we are acting in short order, and the person will
00:37:39.220
be chosen based on their integrity their experience their non-partisanship and it's our hope that that
00:37:49.060
individual will be able to provide us advice and counsel as to the next steps that's the best way
00:37:54.580
to our minds of depoliticizing the issue and we hope that everyone will see that we are working
00:38:02.420
towards the same goal. I understand, Madam Chairperson, all the good intentions behind
00:38:09.160
this. But folks are asking us questions and there's been a whole lot of surveys and polls.
00:38:15.360
Trust is plummeting from year to year. There was an opportunity, a window of opportunity
00:38:21.740
to demonstrate that together we could have chosen an individual. Perhaps it would have
00:38:27.100
been the very same person that you will choose as special rapporteur. But in terms of our
00:38:32.400
our image. And for the benefit of future elections, you know, there was issue of choosing together,
00:38:41.520
we made this choice together, we reached a consensus, we found common ground, and then
00:38:49.600
we could have made that announcement. You know, I'm not used to how things work here.
00:38:55.900
What I saw in the Khulu Commission play out is that when an in-camera session is needed,
0.96
00:39:01.880
go in camera and this allows us to pull the shroud off these issues and show the bald
00:39:11.560
face truth to the public but we don't want this to be sort of scripted as you seem to
00:39:18.260
be scripting it can we just take a step back here and agree that we should be able to consult
00:39:25.300
on this and choose someone we spent a lot of time at question period discussing this
00:39:29.880
can't we move on to something else and show that we are willing to work together well we are here
00:39:35.240
to work together and i share a lot of your points maybe not how pessimistic you are about
00:39:44.920
certain aspects election turnout we have an election turnout in canada i'm proud to say
00:39:52.280
which is uh among the best on the world worldwide and we can always do more i agree with you the
00:39:58.680
Prime Minister consulted and will consult with opposition parties before the appointment
00:40:07.960
We've said and we continue to say that this will find an individual who will ensure that
00:40:23.320
measures are put in place immediately, that that individual will identify gaps, further
00:40:30.940
steps that we can take, if we can appoint a credible person and give them the terms
00:40:42.040
And the Prime Minister has committed to announcing that name very shortly.
00:40:47.780
And I think that we'll both arrive at the same point, with the same outcome that we're
00:40:52.320
both looking for i see well just let me make sure i understand this you're going to opt for a special
00:40:59.440
reporter and you're telling me that all the uh opposition parties have been consulted when it
00:41:04.560
comes to this choice the prime minister said at the press conference on monday evening that he
00:41:09.040
would consult opposition parties before selecting a special reporter perhaps there will be no
00:41:14.880
No unanimous choice or consensus, but I am sure that when the name is chosen of that
00:41:24.140
individual, we'll be able to turn down the volume here, focus on the shared common challenges
00:41:38.100
And I sincerely hope that that will be a promising endeavor.
00:41:52.160
I think that that was a good back and forth, and I think that's an example of how we should
00:41:59.980
Ms. Well, thank you, Chair, and I thank the ministers for being here.
00:42:05.060
And I am grateful that you waited a few extra minutes to sit at the table with us today.
00:42:11.560
I just also want to put on the record that when we have that kind of intense back and forth, it's also very hard for interpreters.
00:42:18.180
They do hard work for us, and I hope all of us respect the work of those folks when they're having conversations.
00:42:27.700
My questions are going to be through the chair to Minister Jolie.
00:42:34.680
i am very very concerned and i take this very seriously and we and i want to appreciate the
00:42:41.400
fact that you talked about the difference between china's government and the chinese people and i
0.98
00:42:46.520
think that that's something i hope every canadian hears very clearly that we cannot mix up the two
00:42:54.120
but i'm also very curious about the fact that i read a globe and mail and they cited that a
00:43:01.080
cesis report from december 2021 where a chinese diplomat tong zelling boasted about interfering
00:43:09.240
with the elections so i'm trying to understand this i want to understand were you aware of the
00:43:15.080
intelligence reports were you aware of those or any similar accusations of miss tong and we know
00:43:22.200
that she did not leave her post until august of 2022 even though the cesis report of her claims
00:43:29.480
of interference was provided eight months earlier so i'm trying to figure out were you aware of this
00:43:36.440
were there any actions taken on the part of yourself and the department to pressure the
00:43:41.560
chinese government to withdraw her as a diplomat if you could give us some clarity on that because
00:43:46.840
i think this is part of the problem and why canadians are questioning so many of our
00:43:51.720
institutions well thank you madam this is a very important question first and foremost i get many
00:43:59.160
briefings many of them have sensitive sensitive information and obviously the right uh committee
00:44:06.520
for me to be able to address these issues and as i cop and of course if they ask me to go i will
00:44:11.960
definitely be going that being said everything that is linked to foreign actions in canada
00:44:20.440
is under the preview of my colleague the minister of public safety and so i would i don't have a
00:44:26.040
specific answer for this case that being said if i was presented with clear evidence about any form
00:44:34.920
of wrongdoing that goes against the vienna convention and when i say that rachel i mean
00:44:41.480
anything that would be wrongdoing a you know accordance with our canadian law i would send
00:44:47.240
them packing thank you for that minister and i hear very clearly that you cannot answer that
00:44:53.080
but what i'm trying to understand is how was this person in this particular position
00:44:59.480
allowed to stay for eight months despite the fact that concerns were raised and i guess the other
00:45:05.800
component of this question and and you referred to it earlier in your conversation was that the
00:45:13.240
department did refuse to grant a visa to a a person who was coming from china in a new diplomatic
00:45:21.080
position at their embassy in the fall of 2022 so i know you can't go into nuances but could you at
00:45:28.760
least provide the public with some sort of understanding of how it is that one individual
00:45:35.400
was allowed to stay in this country for eight years after explicitly boasting about interfering
00:45:42.360
in our election process and then later on you were able to refuse a visa like i'm trying to
00:45:50.040
get some clarity was there a specific change within the process and I want to correct myself
00:45:56.360
I think I said years it's months eight months but I want to understand the process so that Canadians
00:46:03.720
have some sort of transparency so if you can't speak to this in specifics has something changed
00:46:10.200
is there a new rule that you're implementing that is preventing this is it because they were already
00:46:15.400
in the country? Do we have weaknesses in allowing or removing people who should be removed from our
00:46:21.780
country? Is it easier when they come in the door to prevent that from happening? So if you could
00:46:27.380
provide some sort of process answers, I think that would help clarify to Canadians their serious and
00:46:32.520
important concerns. And I agree, they are serious concerns. A couple of things on that. First and
00:46:38.980
foremost, as I said, I can't go into the specific issue. But what I can tell you, though, is when it
00:46:44.840
comes to our own accreditation process for granting visas to diplomats I think
00:46:51.200
that there's a higher level of awareness in the in the last months and I think
00:46:58.760
also that we've been following and making sure that the norms are in place
00:47:05.600
and and nice I've instructed my department to never shy away from
00:47:10.160
denying a visa if it's for a political operative and therefore a link to the communist party of
00:47:16.560
china so that's my first point my second point when it comes to chinese diplomats in in general
00:47:28.640
we've summoned the chinese ambassadors many times i've instructed my department to do so
00:47:35.040
I think that it is important for us to be able to send strong messages
00:47:39.600
and to make sure that any form of actions stop through this engagement.
00:47:47.540
Now, should that not be the case, afterwards, like I said,
00:47:56.440
So it's clear to me, and what I understand you to say,
0.97
00:48:00.160
is it's easier to prevent people from coming into the country
1.00
00:48:02.840
than it is to let them get them out of the country when they're here if I can
1.00
00:48:07.700
just end that I think that I I believe it's easier to prevent I think that the
00:48:13.280
question afterwards when it comes to diplomats in our country is how do you
00:48:17.240
make sure that you have the evidence to deal with an expulsion thank you and
00:48:21.560
what are the impacts of an expulsion also thank you I appreciate that mrs.
00:48:26.920
Blaney there's just a little bit of a nuance going on with our timer and my
00:48:30.920
timer so we do both make sure everyone knows i time it all um we are going to just get to have
00:48:37.160
one round so one more conservative liberal and then two and a half two and a half and then we
00:48:42.120
will have ministers go on their way mr cooper up to five minutes thank you very much madam chair
00:48:48.040
thank you ministers for being here uh through you madam chair to minister jolie you've talked
00:48:54.920
tough you've talked tough with your beijing counterparts so you say you even stared into
00:49:02.600
his eyes i'm sure he was very intimidated uh and now we we learned today and now we learned today
00:49:10.200
or yesterday in the globe and mail very conveniently that a visa was not uh was denied
00:49:17.160
of a a diplomat who wanted to work at the canadian beijing embassy one visa is that it one visa
00:49:29.160
how many visas have been denied just one so i want comments on your question and particularly
00:49:36.040
the beginning because i think it's actually you know i'm going to pause time i'm pausing time
00:49:44.680
i'm pausing time our approach here is very important so i would just say be mindful mr
00:49:53.800
cooper earlier one of your colleagues had said we want to make sure how much time we speak the
00:49:58.840
response is given you spoke for 43 seconds the minister will be given close to the same time
00:50:05.400
you are at 10 seconds already done minister thank you well mr cooper you would know china because
00:50:11.560
you went to china as a parliamentarian in the past and so therefore i think you would understand
00:50:17.160
that when we fall into too much um too too much partisanship we're falling into china's trap
00:50:27.400
how many visas of beijing diplomats have been denied is it just one how many i can give you
00:50:34.360
under my watch what i can tell you is that there was a visa that was not granted back this fall
00:50:41.640
and so one okay thank you for answering that one visa denied under your watch uh minutes and i just
00:50:49.160
wanted to no it's my time no no no but just madam chair madam chair my time is limited
00:50:55.560
minister okay pause pause i just want to make sure that we all understand this is a diplomatic visa
00:51:01.720
so it is a diplomatic visa obviously my question was prefaced on how many diplomatic visas one
00:51:09.640
you've answered that question you said moments ago that beijing's ambassador kong has been summoned
00:51:19.800
on many occasions it's true that the ambassador has been summoned with respect to the balloon
00:51:28.120
incident with respect to illegal police stations but not an election interference why we've summoned
00:51:36.360
the ambassador on many many subjects including foreign interference of all sorts including
00:51:40.600
within our democracy on election interference yes or no like like i said yes and maybe maybe jenny
00:51:49.000
you can add to that because the department would know of course thank you madam chair i would just
00:51:54.840
like to add that uh ambassador tongue diplomatic representations were made to ambassador tongue
00:52:05.880
with respect to interference in the 2019 and 21 elections uh based on the yes that is correct
00:52:11.960
okay thank you for that um madam minister it's been more than six months since we learned of
00:52:21.400
illegal police stations operating in canada by beijing we just learned in the last 24 hours
00:52:27.800
that there are two operating in montreal one in broussard one in montreal within 30 minutes
00:52:34.280
of your riding and yet six months later election interference illegal police stations tough talk
00:52:43.000
but not a single diplomat expelled why not so when it comes to police stations the rcmp has
00:52:53.800
confirmed that they have been closed and so my colleague minister of public safety has also
00:52:59.400
given a lot of information on that aspect before of course we will not tolerate any form of
00:53:06.440
foreign interference including police stations. I've been having many
00:53:10.460
conversations with my colleagues around the world on this issue particularly
00:53:14.120
Tony Blinken again last week and we will work with within the five eyes to
00:53:20.840
identify any form of foreign difference including one visa one visa denied not a
00:53:26.840
single diplomat expelled hardly the actions of the government that takes
00:53:32.000
Beijing's interference seriously minister when you last appeared before this
00:53:37.280
committee on December 13th you said repeatedly unequivocally but you had no
00:53:43.700
information about Beijing's interference in the 2019 and 21 elections how is it
00:53:50.300
that the Globe and Mail and Global News have information based on their review
00:53:57.200
of CSIS documents about significant interference by Beijing in the 2019 and 21 elections,
00:54:04.300
but you, as Minister of Foreign Affairs, know nothing.
00:54:09.200
Well, when it comes to activities of foreign actors in the country,
00:54:14.540
the Foreign Affairs Minister was not made aware.
00:54:17.680
And since then, I've made sure that that changed, that that would not be the case,
00:54:22.020
because obviously, as everybody around this table would be aware,
00:54:25.600
it is important you were you didn't know anything in december can i just finish my sentence please
00:54:30.640
michael so obviously in the context as colleagues around this table would agree uh as minister
00:54:38.880
foreign affairs i need to make sure that i have access to that information in order to conduct
00:54:44.720
our diplomatic relationships in a good way in the Canadian's interest.
00:54:56.720
Thanks Madam Chair and let me just say to the ministers my apologies for what you've had to
00:55:01.360
witness today in this committee in terms of the condescending tone and I apologize on behalf of
00:55:06.880
my colleagues because I don't think they will but um just I'll start off with the comment or a
00:55:12.800
question to you minister leblanc have you read the recent morris rosenberg report
00:55:20.080
uh yes i have and i've had an opportunity also to discuss with mr rosenberg his recommendations
00:55:26.480
and the nature of the work that he did late last fall as well thank you um i noticed uh in the
00:55:32.000
rosenberg report that there was specific reference in a footnote on page 26 that
00:55:37.760
uh three of the political parties participated in the uh briefings during the last election
00:55:44.800
and all continued to support a panel composed of senior public servants what i found interesting
00:55:49.440
about it was that it was noted that the bloc quebecois uh didn't participate in those briefings
00:55:55.760
did you do you find that surprising uh mr turnbull i i think uh i saw the leader of the bloc
00:56:04.400
explaining at some point why they chose not to participate we think it's important that
00:56:10.320
all political parties designate senior campaign officials who can receive the appropriate security
00:56:16.240
clearances and be briefed directly by non-partisan senior officials responsible for monitoring and
00:56:24.720
enforcing canadian law including obviously countering foreign interference so we thought
00:56:30.640
this was an important part of our protecting democracy initiative we certainly intend to
00:56:36.560
continue making available to political parties and their representatives a chance to participate in
00:56:44.000
this process we think it strengthens as some previous questions have identified the overall
00:56:49.360
public confidence in the measures the government of canada is taking to protect institutions
00:56:56.240
thank you for that response I think I agree with you that it does add to the transparency and the
00:57:03.980
overall confidence that Canadians have in our electoral process and I think that's a good
00:57:10.640
thing and I hope that all political parties would participate in those briefings especially when
00:57:16.220
they later are claiming that somehow our government is not serious about foreign election interference
00:57:21.000
so mr. Leblanc though I want to ask you do you intend to implement the
00:57:26.560
recommendations from the Rosenberg report of course we do the answer is yes
00:57:33.140
we had done that following the report done by Jim Judd former director of CSIS
00:57:39.900
as well after the 2019 election the Prime Minister committed publicly on
00:57:46.280
Monday evening, and I even had a chance to talk with the clerk yesterday and again this
00:57:51.680
morning. He assigned her and me a little bit of homework to look at, obviously, the Rosenberg,
00:58:00.060
the 16 recommendations Mr. Rosenberg made, look at the Judd report again to take a constat,
00:58:07.800
to take a look at how we had evolved for the 2021 election, but look at reports from the
00:58:13.500
National Security Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians some members here
00:58:16.740
have sat or sit on that group and come back to the Prime Minister with a public
00:58:22.620
report to him within 30 days of Monday we had a discussion is it 30 working days
00:58:28.980
sitting days calendar days we're just going to err on the side of doing it as
00:58:33.240
quickly as possible Mr. Turnbull thank you for that and that's great and great
00:58:37.260
to hear because I've read the report and there's quite a few really good
00:58:40.980
recommendations i think they're in there that we can benefit from uh in terms of foreign interference
00:58:46.260
reports on foreign interference have been uh i think it's been reported for over a decade
00:58:52.980
so why do you think that we've only really seen action starting in 2015 mr lubang well madam chair
00:59:02.740
through you to mr turnbull um i've said a number of times in the house of commons that we have taken
00:59:07.460
this issue seriously since we formed government you're right to note that previous public reports
00:59:14.420
by cesus uh go back over a decade uh to 2013 mr harper's former national security advisor was
00:59:23.220
talking publicly on national television networks even a few years before so this is not new uh in
00:59:30.260
the last few years it's certainly not unique to canada as i said um we wanted to take a strong
00:59:37.060
robust approach which we've continued to evolve the leader of the opposition i thought you were
00:59:41.860
in the house earlier this week offered an interesting take when he was minister responsible
00:59:46.020
for democratic institutions these reports were public he had taken no action himself as minister
00:59:53.060
responsible for democratic institutions and in sort of a smart little quip to his second question
00:59:58.580
he said to me oh that's okay because it wasn't benefiting the conservative party i thought that
01:00:03.540
But that was a rather perverse way to look at one's public responsibilities.
01:00:25.120
How do the exchanges of information occur between the prime minister, the site task force?
01:00:33.420
How do you operate to ensure that everyone is kept abreast of everything pertinent?
01:00:43.660
Well, I just want to understand what you're saying or asking.
01:00:49.240
You're saying what kind of dialogue do I have with the Prime Minister?
01:00:55.780
What are the goalposts to ensure that you are kept abreast and that there's communication
01:01:04.240
with the commit, with the site task force, with the Prime Minister?
01:01:16.340
Oftentimes in person in Ottawa, there are secret briefings.
01:01:21.620
Sometimes I get briefings when I'm on the road.
01:01:24.900
I am on the road, and sometimes when I'm on the road with the Prime Minister, well then
01:01:32.560
Those briefings can be on anything and everything to do with foreign affairs, both domestically
01:01:39.680
My goal as Minister of Foreign Affairs is to keep abreast of what's happening on the
01:01:43.540
world stage, such that we can properly conduct our diplomatic efforts and protect our country
01:01:54.620
and its integrity under our indo-pacific strategy we observed that one we needed to increase our
01:02:01.900
capacity vis-a-vis China we and that's why we earmarked 2.3 billion dollars to increase our
01:02:10.780
presence in the region augment our capacity and we recognized that the RCMP and CSIS needed to
01:02:19.660
do more too in order to manage issues of foreign interference.
01:02:24.760
And that's why we invested $88 million to fund staffing efforts.
01:02:31.100
The Europeans, the Americans, other nations in the world are discovering the same things
01:02:38.380
I discussed the issues with Penny Wong, the Minister of Foreign Affairs for Australia
01:02:43.500
recently, because Australia had to come to grips with the similar issues in the past
01:02:48.420
And I did that with a view to getting a better understanding.
01:02:55.740
And my question is going to be to Minister LeBlanc.
01:03:00.120
But before I ask that question, I just want to say as a woman politician,
01:03:04.380
I remember at the very beginning of my career being asked if I was tough enough to do the job.
01:03:09.820
And I think it's absolutely devastating that that sort of frame of reference would be used in this way.
01:03:17.720
I believe a minister has a position of power regardless of gender identity and
01:03:22.940
that should be respected and I'm sure that internationally it is and I think
01:03:26.900
it's shameful that that was even said in this place so I just wanted to put that
01:03:30.680
on the record so thank you Rachel for this through you chair to Minister LeBlanc
01:03:36.560
you know when I look at where we're at right now we know that Canadians are
01:03:41.900
are rightly concerned and that our political system our electoral system is being discussed
01:03:48.780
in the around kitchen tables because people are not sure if they can trust our institutions anymore
01:03:55.100
we know that many people with a lot of experience richard faden jean-pierre kingsley gerald butts
01:04:04.900
Arthur Wilczynski, even my leader Jagmeet Singh have all asked for a public inquiry.
01:04:12.400
Because I fundamentally believe that it needs to be transparent, public, and independent.
01:04:18.300
Right now, what is happening is we're seeing all of this debated and fought out in a very public, political realm.
01:04:28.640
Because if we're going to have Canadians trust our systems, we need to have processes that engender faith and belief.
01:04:38.760
And right now we have a feeling that the government is hiding something.
01:04:43.100
We have the Conservative Party creating a lot of fear that is telling people you just have to stop trusting what we should all trust.
01:04:50.920
And we're not focusing on how do we strengthen our systems in an ever-changing reality of foreign interference from many, many countries.
01:05:00.180
So I'm just wondering if you can explain to me why the Prime Minister says that if the Special Rapporteur says we need a public inquiry, we're going to do that.
01:05:10.400
Why are the systems and everything that is being proposed by your government not allowing for that transparency, public and independent frame?
01:05:17.480
uh well madam madam chair uh through you miss blaney thank you for the question but also thank
01:05:24.360
you for your comments about the inappropriate comments that mr cooper made earlier um i would
01:05:30.360
agree with you that canadians need to have a robust and pervasive trust in their democratic
01:05:36.040
institutions that's precisely why we have taken a series of incremental measures every election
01:05:42.520
including the non-partisan professional public service nobody around this table would imagine
01:05:50.000
that the clerk of the Privy Council the head of Canada's public service is a partisan figure
01:05:54.500
and when he or she for example chaired the protocol or testified before this committee
01:06:00.520
or made public comments along with other senior officials it's precisely designed to restore that
01:06:06.440
confidence but we believe and I know Madam Chair we're out of time we believe Ms. Blaney that
01:06:10.740
But the Special Rapporteur is again another step in depoliticizing this conversation and
01:06:17.560
pointing a path forward that hopefully takes us to the place that I think you and I want
01:06:22.860
to get to and that other colleagues have referred to where we can have a thoughtful conversation
01:06:27.640
around strengthening davantage our institutions.
01:06:33.920
With that, I would like to thank all of you for coming.
01:06:37.480
we don't always have enough time to answer the questions because we've run
01:06:40.360
out of time so quickly we're welcome you to send us any answers or extensions of
01:06:45.280
answers in writing to the clerk and we'll share those around with that we
01:06:48.700
won't have a lot of time left here so we're continuing our meeting quickly and
01:06:52.120
we thank you for making time to come and we'll see you soon have a great day
01:06:56.980
appreciate it to you and your teams just because we have limited times and I know
01:07:00.760
interpreters I'm already pushing it so I apologize we have resources confirmed
01:07:05.800
from 4 30 to 6 30 p.m. we will be returning to this room 025 B I will be
01:07:13.420
here shortly before 4 30 and we will be here 4 30 to 6 30 unless we can get out
01:07:18.340
faster but those resources have been confirmed so just a reminder to all
01:07:22.480
members that we're coming back for that miss O'Connell point of order madam chair
01:07:26.620
thank you madam chair um i appreciate ms blaney for pointing it out but i am rising i have a
01:07:38.540
point of order in regards to the conduct of mr cooper and his comments i think any woman sitting
01:07:44.060
around this room i'm sure men have can appreciate it and understand it too the constant demeaning
0.63
01:07:51.280
nature that only occurs to our female minister that appeared today yesterday it was another
01:07:58.680
member of our team asking a question in qp and a conservative member said she deserved
01:08:04.600
a participation medal today it was a question of whether this minister is tough enough every
01:08:10.700
single day we sit in this house as women and we hear these they're called microaggressions
01:08:19.460
but they don't feel very micro to continuously be undermined and I think he owes this committee
01:08:24.860
and the minister in particular an apology and I'm really sick and tired of sitting in here
01:08:30.520
having to listen to it. I am sick and tired of Canadians having to see it and I'm really sick
01:08:36.960
and tired of the conservatives just not getting it. Mrs. Romanato. Thank you very much Madam Chair
01:08:46.380
and i too i'm really disappointed i want to know if that member opposite when then prime minister
01:08:54.220
stephen harper confronted vladimir putin and said get out of ukraine did that member opposite say
01:09:00.620
was he tough enough that was completely unacceptable unacceptable behavior for
01:09:05.900
every woman that has ever taken her place in this house and i demand an apology understanding order
01:09:11.100
18 mr. Fergus I would just say be mindful of the volume for speakers and I
01:09:18.840
just tapped it with my pencil sorry mr. Turnbull was finished I didn't realize
01:09:25.500
it was on the list but I'm sure I think it was oh mr. mr. Fergus my apologies
01:09:37.900
I demand an apology from the member in question.
01:09:45.180
As a man who is very sensitive to these issues, such as discrimination, and just like my colleague
01:10:05.360
Ms O'Connell said, this smacks of microaggressions.
01:10:11.240
when you are the victim it's much much much more than a microaggression it is a macroaggression
01:10:17.560
and i hope that it'll be decent enough to make an apology especially the the very day after
01:10:24.580
international women's day to boot i thank you for that i i will just remind all members that
01:10:32.440
especially when we're having and it shouldn't be cool if it's not in public we should just
01:10:36.400
be mindful as to the work that we're doing um yeah there's a lot of things around this place
01:10:43.360
that make me puke in my mouth often so it's really unfortunate we can be better than this so i'll
01:10:48.400
leave it at that and if anybody wants to act on the comments we can figure that out later
01:10:53.520
just in a quick second since we are coming back at 4 30 this committee is also tasked with
01:10:58.400
redistribution so amongst our ways of finding a way forward i did try to have one day for
01:11:03.440
redistribution one day for this study obviously that's not the approach the committee wants to
01:11:08.720
take and i know there's questions being asked by our colleagues when do we get to come i don't have
01:11:13.520
answers for them because i would like us all to find a way forward the reports that are ready for
01:11:18.560
me to present when we return to the house after constituency week i will present them in the house
01:11:26.640
and as i've been asked i usually do i'll give the vice chairs a heads up that i am presenting them
01:11:32.240
So with that, I would really encourage us to be mindful of the topic of the day