Juno News - March 01, 2023


China Hearings ｜ National Security Advisor Jody Thomas questioned on foreign interference


Episode Stats

Length

59 minutes

Words per Minute

136.94128

Word Count

8,125

Sentence Count

166


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
00:00:00.000 ...meeting to the 55th meeting of the Standing Committee on Procedure and of House Affairs.
00:00:21.260 The committee is meeting today for spending order 108.3a and the motion agreed to on February 21st, 2023 concerning foreign election interference.
00:00:32.680 Before we start, a reminder that all comments should be addressed through the chair.
00:00:38.100 The clerk and I will maintain consolidated speaking lists of members wishing to speak.
00:00:41.980 For the first hour, we have with us today from 3 to 4 p.m.
00:00:46.640 From the Privy Council Office, Jody Thomas, National Security Intelligence Advisor.
00:00:51.940 From the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, Cindy Turmoseisen,
00:01:00.920 Associate Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs.
00:01:03.100 And from the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, Sean Tupper, Deputy Minister.
00:01:08.500 um i just see mr cooper would like the floor real quick thank you madam chair a very brief
00:01:15.540 housekeeping matter i would note that house resources are available up until 11 p.m this
00:01:23.540 evening and given that we have two hours with witnesses it is my intent to move our conservative
00:01:33.140 motion that was put on notice that among other things calls for katie telford to testify before
00:01:39.600 this committee testimony that is essential to get to the heart of what is at issue and that is what
00:01:47.200 did the prime minister know when did he know it and what did he do or fail to do about beijing's
00:01:54.000 election interference and on that basis madam chair respectfully i just wish to indicate that
00:02:00.040 you do not have the implied consent of the official opposition to adjourn at 5 p.m.
00:02:09.260 Thank you, Mr. Cooper. So you're not moving your motion at this time?
00:02:13.800 At 5 p.m.
00:02:14.780 You plan to move it at 5 p.m.?
00:02:16.680 Yes, or when we're done with the panel, the second panel.
00:02:21.560 Thank you, Mr. Cooper. So I believe we will now resume with our witnesses who have so kindly
00:02:27.240 joined us today mrs thomas you will be providing opening remarks and we welcome them now thank you
00:02:35.640 thank you very much thank you madam chair and members of the committee for the opportunity to
00:02:40.280 appear today with colleagues my colleague and moi appuyant lay effort du committee
00:02:46.520 to study the question of the foreign language in Canada.
00:02:52.020 It is very important.
00:03:08.320 Yes, can you hear the interpreter?
00:03:09.620 Can people hear the interpreter?
00:03:11.720 Yeah.
00:03:15.320 Thank you.
00:03:16.220 Thank you, Madam Chair, members of the committee for the opportunity to appear today with my colleagues.
00:03:21.200 My colleagues and I support the committee's efforts to study foreign interference within Canada.
00:03:29.360 It is very important to reassure Canadians that the last two federal elections were fair and legitimate.
00:03:36.020 Canadians have questions about foreign interference attempts during the last elections
00:03:40.080 and we will endeavor to answer those questions in the most transparent way possible within the
00:03:46.000 limits of the law we as national security officials have a duty to protect classified information
00:03:52.160 an authorized sharing of classified information is in fact prohibited by the security of information
00:03:57.760 act that is not to say that we cannot or should not talk about foreign interference which is not
00:04:03.680 a new phenomena nor is it unique to canada like others we believe this threat is on the rise and
00:04:09.840 increasingly complex the greatest foreign interference threat to canada comes from the
00:04:14.800 people's republic of china though other states like russia and iran are also attempting to convert
00:04:19.840 covertly or corrosively interfere in our affairs as highlighted in many public reports including
00:04:27.520 from ceases in the national security and intelligence committee of parliamentarians
00:04:31.440 foreign interference takes on many forms such as undue pressure on politicians staff and public
00:04:37.760 servants to obtain information or sway decisions intimidation of diasporas or other communities
00:04:44.240 including for example by denying visas to visit family miss or disinformation to weaken canada's
00:04:50.480 societal cohesion we have seen this play out in the context of canada's support to ukraine
00:04:55.840 encroachments into our territory or networks for intelligence collection theft of our science data
00:05:02.000 and research measuring the short and long-term impacts of foreign interference is a challenge
00:05:07.120 we know that it costs canada tens of billions of dollars annually in lost profitability
00:05:12.240 erodes canadian technological advantages particularly in emerging technologies
00:05:17.680 undermines national unity and sows discontent threatens the safety of targeted individuals
00:05:23.760 and their entourage or families and challenges democracy over the past few years we have taken
00:05:30.480 a number of steps to more effectively detect deter and counter foreign interference in all of its
00:05:36.480 forms including but not only during election periods one effective way to do so is to talk
00:05:43.200 about the threat and how we mitigate it without jeopardizing the sources and techniques used to
00:05:47.760 gather intelligence and keep canadians safe as i said one of our responsibilities as senior
00:05:53.440 officials of the security and intelligence community is to be as transparent as possible
00:05:57.520 without further challenging national security or further damaging trust in our democratic
00:06:03.440 institutions as such we have been engaging with communities academia industry and politicians to
00:06:10.640 raise awareness and provide tools to help address this broad complex threat such tools include the
00:06:16.800 security and intelligence threats to election task force and the critical election incident
00:06:21.120 public protocol these mechanisms helped ensure that the 2019 and 2021 federal elections were
00:06:29.200 indeed fair and legitimate despite foreign interference attempts as described by minister
00:06:35.760 blair in the december 2020 letter to members of parliament our broader counter foreign
00:06:40.880 interference toolkit also includes countering missing disinformation including using active
00:06:46.800 cyber tools and leading the g7 rapid response mechanism enhancing research security including
00:06:53.760 with guidance to research granting councils protecting our networks from malicious actors
00:06:58.080 including through the creation of the Canadian Centre for Cybersecurity,
00:07:01.760 investigating, disrupting, and or prosecuting foreign interference activity.
00:07:06.080 We cannot paint an overly optimistic picture. Things change, tools and methods change.
00:07:12.080 Our adversaries adapt quickly and find innovative ways to interfere in our affairs, and so we must
00:07:17.120 continue to learn, including from one election to the next, to refine our collective defenses
00:07:22.960 and adapt to this evolving threat part of this is better informing canadians of the threats we face
00:07:29.360 i will stress again that this must be done responsibly without putting at risk the physical
00:07:33.120 safety of our human resources our human sources and employees by publicly divulging classified
00:07:40.560 material given the very nature of intelligence individual reports when taken out of context
00:07:46.240 may be incomplete and misrepresentative of the full story we must also carefully consider that
00:07:52.640 as recently suggested by senator shugart in some cases publicly disclosing intelligence on foreign
00:07:59.280 states specific attempts to interfere may ultimately play into their hands including
00:08:03.840 by potentially affecting outcomes of electoral processes and creating confusion to conclude
00:08:11.200 while i was not in my current role in 2019 or 2021 i speak for the security and intelligence
00:08:17.200 community when i say that we are clear-eyed and understanding the challenge posed by foreign
00:08:20.960 interference we are taking concrete steps to strengthen our counter foreign interference
00:08:25.920 approach including by making sure that those who engage in such activities face consequences
00:08:30.880 again as minister blair stated in his letter to members of parliament we cannot always make
00:08:34.640 government actions public in this sphere our sustained efforts make a difference in the lives
00:08:39.280 of canadians once again thank you my colleagues and i will be pleased to answer your questions
00:08:50.960 Thank you, Madam Chair.
00:08:55.380 Thank you very much.
00:08:57.020 We'll now go into our question round, starting with six minutes,
00:09:00.500 starting with Mr. Cooper, followed by Mr. Fergus,
00:09:04.500 followed by Madam Normandais, and then Mr. Julian.
00:09:11.920 Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
00:09:14.400 Thank you, Ms. Thomas, and to all of the witnesses
00:09:16.780 for making yourself available this afternoon.
00:09:20.020 i'll direct my questions to ms thomas on february 24th 2023 sam cooper of global news reported that
00:09:31.020 three weeks before the 2019 election cesus officials gave an urgent briefing to senior
00:09:37.880 aides in the prime minister's office warning them a then liberal candidate who is now a sitting
00:09:44.000 liberal mp had received assistance from beijing's toronto consulate in his nomination campaign on
00:09:51.920 what date was the prime minister briefed about this as i stated i was not in this job in 2019
00:09:58.980 and so i do not know when the prime minister was briefed and and i realize you were not in that
00:10:04.860 job but would you undertake to confirm the date that the prime minister was briefed about that
00:10:11.440 I will certainly do that. And as you're aware, the director of CSIS will be here at this committee.
00:10:17.220 Thank you. So you will undertake to do that. Thank you very much.
00:10:20.820 What are the names of the senior aides in the Prime Minister's office who were briefed by CSIS about Beijing's interference to help this then-liberal candidate and now-sitting Liberal MP?
00:10:35.440 I, again, I was not at that briefing. So speculating on...
00:10:41.440 Who was briefed? CSIS will be here and they'll be able to answer that question for you.
00:10:46.200 So will you undertake, given that you are the National Security Advisor to the Prime Minister,
00:10:53.500 to provide the committee with the names of senior aides in the Prime Minister's office,
00:11:00.180 as reported by Global News, who were briefed by CSIS?
00:11:04.280 I will undertake to report the names of who was briefed as informed to me by CSIS.
00:11:11.440 Robert Fyfe and Stephen Chase in a February 17, 2023 article in the Globe and Mail reported
00:11:22.680 that the Prime Minister received a national security briefing last fall in which he was
00:11:27.660 told that Beijing's consulate in Toronto was involved with assisting 11 candidates in the
00:11:38.480 2019 election on what date was the prime minister briefed about this i don't have my calendar in
00:11:46.380 front of me i will give you that date you will undertake to provide that date thank you very much
00:11:51.160 on november 7th 2022 sam cooper of global news reported that the prime minister and several
00:12:02.580 cabinet ministers received a series of briefings and memos about beijing's efforts to subvert
00:12:08.160 canada's democratic process including interfering in the 2019 election can you confirm that the
00:12:15.580 prime minister was briefed about this the prime minister is briefed quite continuously on foreign
00:12:21.220 interference i asked a very specific question and that was in regards to what sam cooper reported
00:12:28.560 on november 7 2022 was the prime minister briefed um what is the date you're asking about his
00:12:34.580 briefing you're telling me the date of the report not the date of the briefing that began in january
00:12:41.240 of 2022 um since january 2022 i will give you the dates when we've briefed the prime minister
00:12:49.740 formally we also have informal discussions with them frequently about foreign interference
00:12:54.900 and the activities in the national security community so put it this way will you undertake
00:12:59.960 to provide the dates that the Prime Minister was briefed with respect to Sam Cooper's report
00:13:10.200 of November 7, 2022? I can't give you the dates that the Prime Minister was briefed about media
00:13:17.040 reports. I can tell you the dates he was briefed about foreign interference. Okay, so with that,
00:13:23.280 how many times was the Prime Minister briefed about Beijing's interference in the 2019 and
00:13:30.860 2021 elections? The Prime Minister would have been briefed on foreign interference in the
00:13:36.120 elections multiple times between 2019 and 2021 and 2022. We will endeavor to get you those dates.
00:13:44.680 can you so you will undertake to provide the dates and the agencies and those involved in
00:13:53.580 briefing the prime minister we will endeavor to get the dates every instance that he was briefed
00:13:59.580 in respect of Beijing's election I will do my best but again I was not in this job at the time
00:14:05.120 Okay. A redacted report entitled Daily Foreign Intelligence Brief dated February 21, 2020,
00:14:22.080 from the Intelligence Assessment Secretariat at PCO provided to this committee in the production
00:14:28.060 process states that there were, quote, subtle but effective interference networks, end of quote,
00:14:34.840 by Beijing in the 2019 election and provides the following assessment, quote, investigations into
00:14:42.540 activities linked to the Canadian federal election in 2019 reveal an active foreign interference
00:14:49.400 network uh end of quote on what date was the what dated on what date did the pco share this
00:14:58.500 information with the prime minister that information is widely circulated and is available
00:15:04.540 in daily reading packages and the prime minister would have received that it would have been in a
00:15:09.740 daily reading package and uh would any ministers have received that uh in all likelihood yes
00:15:19.140 thank you mr fergus mr fergus thank you madam chair here today to the can you briefly describe
00:15:31.140 what foreign interference means to the national security and intelligence agencies and you know
00:15:37.780 because here we're talking about electoral interference but i'm certain the definition
00:15:43.140 is larger than that it deals with academia businesses and other aspects of society can
00:15:49.540 you briefly outline what foreign interference means to your community i'm happy to mr tupper
00:15:54.980 is responsible the deputy minister responsible for the agency so perhaps he would like to weigh in
00:16:00.660 it's a great question because it is a complex web of activity uh we take very much a whole
00:16:06.580 of society approach to looking at foreign interference uh you noted a number of areas
00:16:11.780 that we look at democratic institutions we look at particular communities within the country to
00:16:18.900 ensure we have an understanding of what's going on and the kind of interference that may be occurring
00:16:23.620 in diaspora communities we pay attention to economic and national security issues in terms
00:16:28.740 of attempts to disrupt our economy so that might be looking at at banks and and the rules and
00:16:34.660 regulations that surround and protect our financial institutions certainly on the international
00:16:39.940 affairs side uh we would have fairly comprehensive reporting and and and awareness of of our
00:16:46.100 activities and our partnerships with our allies to jointly work together and then finally we pay
00:16:52.820 an inordinate amount of attention to our critical infrastructure the disruption of our grids of our
00:16:59.060 pipelines would have massive disruption in our communities so we pay a lot of attention to that
00:17:03.300 Thank you. Is it fair to say that foreign interference is not new?
00:17:09.860 And are, have governments taken steps towards this?
00:17:14.020 Are they taking steps towards this?
00:17:15.880 What, are the national security agencies involved in that process to try to combat foreign interference?
00:17:23.700 It's absolutely fair to say it's not new.
00:17:26.480 I think, I think that the shift that...
00:17:29.640 How long would you say that national security...
00:17:31.580 As long as governments have opposed one another, I would offer.
00:17:35.500 I think the real shift, though, has occurred in the last five or six years.
00:17:39.940 And I think the more typical activities of espionage, of suitcases full of money, of coercion,
00:17:50.520 those are things we've known about for a very long time.
00:17:53.300 But over the last number of years, I think through the use of social media,
00:17:56.120 the ability to invoke cyber attacks against states,
00:18:00.880 it has really escalated our awareness and our attention to the area
00:18:04.920 simply because it's more pervasive, it's more aggressive,
00:18:08.600 and the potential for damage to our democracy is that much more serious.
00:18:15.860 The social media has been around for a while.
00:18:19.800 When did it first get onto your agenda?
00:18:21.620 I think largely post the 2016 American election, where we started to understand how foreign
00:18:29.800 countries were trying to influence that election, I think it was a real learning point for us to
00:18:35.160 understand particularly what the Russians had been doing. So we have paid more and more attention
00:18:40.860 since that time to really understand and make sure that we have awareness of what's going on
00:18:46.120 in Canada and the kinds of activities that are centered on the Canadian state.
00:18:51.620 I want to talk about some allegations that I've been able to read from Waleed Suleiman,
00:18:57.840 who has said publicly that he served as a Conservative Party's representative on the CITE Task Force in 2021.
00:19:06.220 He said allegations of foreign interference were brought forward as a part of the CITE Task Force engagement with political parties,
00:19:13.480 but were not taken seriously.
00:19:16.140 How do you respond to that?
00:19:18.920 Thank you very much for the question, Madam Chair.
00:19:20.900 I, again, was not on the task force or the panel at that time.
00:19:28.560 We do have very clear documentation from that representative of that political party
00:19:35.300 asking questions and stating concerns with a very detailed response back to him
00:19:41.240 on or about October 22nd, indicating that the—
00:19:46.900 2021 that the uh allegations were being taken very seriously but that we did not see um
00:19:57.380 the evidence that he presented in the intelligence to support the claims now there have been claims
00:20:04.100 since then and we're reviewing that information to understand um the full sure as broadly as is
00:20:13.140 possible but he was given a very thorough response at the time thomas is there anything to suggest
00:20:20.180 that the facts have changed since that original assessment was given there is no response to his
00:20:26.180 claims there is nothing that suggests um that the outcome um and that the writings that he was
00:20:34.100 concerned about were uh affected by attempts at foreign interference uh there certainly were
00:20:40.500 attempts we have denied that but intelligence evolves and we get more information we obtain
00:20:47.220 more information there's more sources that become available and we have to continuously assess the
00:20:53.060 picture and our understanding of any given situation and so information has come to light
00:20:59.780 since that response was given and i've asked that we just review it and be able to understand and
00:21:04.820 answer questions about it. Thank you. Were there other allegations which were
00:21:13.340 brought forward at the time from other parties? Not that I'm aware of, no. Thank
00:21:20.300 you very much, Madam Chair. Thank you very much. Madame Normandie,
00:21:26.600 Ms. Normandie, welcome. You have six minutes. Thank you. Ms. Thomas, earlier
00:21:33.620 You stated that you were not in your job at the time when allegations about a liberal
00:21:41.860 candidate who had been helped by China, you were not there when those allegations came
00:21:47.300 out.
00:21:48.300 But you were there when the Prime Minister said it was not the role of thesis to determine
00:21:56.940 who should and shouldn't be allowed to run.
00:22:02.800 What message does this send to those people wishing to interfere in the democratic system
00:22:10.500 who wish to influence a political party?
00:22:15.440 This idea that CSIS information was more or less put in a drawer, information about a
00:22:20.680 problematic political candidate, what message does this send in terms of security?
00:22:26.980 Does it give an impression that this issue is not as important as it is?
00:22:30.180 question madam chair I would suggest that's not the conclusion I would draw
00:22:37.320 the conclusion I would draw is that CSIS provides information they build an
00:22:43.900 intelligence picture they investigate and they provide information to
00:22:49.520 decision-makers up into up to and including the Prime Minister I agree with
00:22:54.600 the Prime Minister CSIS does not determine who should be a candidate and
00:22:59.040 who should not they provide for all parties where there is a concern and if there is a concern
00:23:04.080 information that parties then use in their nomination processes for their own purpose in
00:23:10.720 according to their own rules regulations and bylaws that govern that party cesis provides
00:23:16.320 information to decision makers thank you
00:23:20.960 The Prime Minister stated that he had not received information about the allegations
00:23:29.560 from CSIS, or rather that he wouldn't confirm or deny.
00:23:37.160 I want to talk about the fact that there were people who had information and provided it
00:23:40.960 to the media.
00:23:42.200 What message does this send in terms of national security?
00:23:45.120 fact that some CSIS employees seem to be risking their very careers just to leak this information
00:23:53.240 to the media. Is the message being sent that the Prime Minister didn't take it seriously
00:23:59.480 enough in the first place?
00:24:00.800 Thank you very much for the question. It's a very important question. We in the public
00:24:05.400 service are the guardians of protected information. We share information to those people who have
00:24:12.200 security clearances or in roles of authority where they can make decisions the unlawful sharing of
00:24:19.080 information and the inappropriate sharing of information i believe jeopardizes our national
00:24:25.240 security it jeopardizes institutions and it puts people at risk both employees and subjects of
00:24:31.960 investigations at unnecessary risk and it's very concerning i'm not going to speculate on the
00:24:39.080 motivations seems to be an essential question this idea that information was leaked to the media
00:24:55.160 does this not justify the need for a public inquiry a more wide-ranging public inquiry
00:25:01.320 to examine issues of interference in depth inquiries like this one i think are very
00:25:11.320 important in terms of understanding what happened and so i applaud that you are doing this
00:25:16.040 i think it is important to talk about foreign interference i think it's important to talk
00:25:19.960 about the electoral process a public inquiry will have the same limitations that this committee does
00:25:26.680 in that we cannot talk about national security information in a public forum the national
00:25:31.880 security and intelligence committee of parliamentarians was created for situations
00:25:35.720 like this where we can be absolutely transparent with them and they can see the um secret top
00:25:42.440 secret protected information that was used to make decisions and to inform decision makers
00:25:47.880 and so i would um if an inquiry were to happen it is through a body like that that i would recommend
00:25:54.520 because an open forum is going to have the same limitations that this body does thinking of the
00:26:06.920 impression that that this could to give the idea that this release could cause a panic
00:26:12.680 How would you assess the fact that people wishing to shine a light on foreign interference,
00:26:27.020 which may have taken place during elections, were accused of racism?
00:26:31.160 Does this not create cynicism, cynicism that could be countered through a public inquiry
00:26:37.600 through through groups ensured with analyzing elections are we not contributing to cynicism
00:26:45.700 I think it's important to note that members of the Chinese community came out yesterday and said
00:26:51.340 it is important to talk about this that the health and well-being of diaspora communities and mem
00:26:58.840 Canadians from countries who participate in foreign interference feel protected as Canadians
00:27:06.640 And I think that is a really essential element of having a nation as multicultural as ours,
00:27:13.680 is that Canadians do feel equal and do feel protected by the national security community.
00:27:19.760 I think that is why the work that is being done on foreign interference is so important,
00:27:24.760 because it does ultimately protect citizens.
00:27:31.680 Merci, madame.
00:27:33.140 Thank you.
00:27:34.220 Six minutes for you.
00:27:36.640 Mr. Julian, I see your lips moving, but I don't hear your voice.
00:27:46.000 So do we want to try that again?
00:27:47.780 You are on mute, but I don't hear you.
00:27:51.480 Is it your headset that's muted?
00:27:52.900 Is there buttons on your headset?
00:27:55.300 There is not.
00:27:56.300 Okay, that's interesting.
00:27:58.740 you want to unplug it one time and plug it in again we did do a sound check correct
00:28:09.780 huh we did go it's a miracle excellent hearing your voice thanks to our it team we did do a
00:28:18.740 sound check uh thank you madam chair i'd like to start off uh by providing a notice of motion
00:28:24.500 this motion was circulated to committee yesterday with 48-hour notice period i would be moving it
00:28:30.820 tomorrow the notice of motion reads as following that the committee report to the house that it
00:28:36.420 calls on the government of canada to launch a national public inquiry into allegations of
00:28:41.860 foreign interference in canada's democratic system including but not limited to allegations of
00:28:47.860 interference in general elections by foreign governments that this inquiry be granted all
00:28:53.700 necessary powers to call witnesses from the government and from political parties including
00:28:58.900 but not limited to ministers former ministers chiefs of staff to the prime minister and to the
00:29:04.580 leader of the official opposition during the 2019 and 2021 federal election campaigns and
00:29:11.540 campaign directors for the 2019 and 2021 federal election campaigns of the liberal party of canada
00:29:18.500 and the conservative party of canada and that this inquiry have the power to order and review
00:29:23.620 all documents it deems necessary for this work including documents which are related to national
00:29:30.100 security i will be moving that formally tomorrow thank you madam chair i would like to go to our
00:29:37.460 witnesses uh madame thomas you you stated that you in the position uh when the events that have been
00:29:47.620 described uh happened but you have been in your position i'm sure able to read the articles
00:29:54.420 written by robert fife and stephen chase uh seen of course the reports by sam cooper on global news
00:30:00.660 will you acknowledge that the allegations that are contained in those reports are factual
00:30:07.380 i'm not going to comment on information that was appropriately obtained the
00:30:13.860 The concept and the problem and the severity of foreign interference is well documented.
00:30:20.980 That there was attempts at foreign interference in the 2019 and 2021 federal elections has been documented
00:30:29.320 and is quite transparent in the reports done by Jim Judd and Morris Rosenberg.
00:30:34.440 And so I acknowledge that foreign interference has been attempted.
00:30:37.580 if those allegations are correct this constitutes criminal violations of the elections act as we
00:30:46.620 saw with the in and out scandal uh back under the harper government dean del mastro of course
00:30:52.060 in his case is a conservative mp uh does your evaluation include criminal activity
00:30:58.220 So in cases where there are allegations of breaches of election law, those are criminal
00:31:09.940 allegations, and in those contexts, how do you respond?
00:31:16.720 The RCMP form a critical part of the team of people who assess activities during elections.
00:31:25.660 were aware of the information that was brought forward they have looked at that information
00:31:30.380 and have concluded that they will not pursue a criminal investigation i know my colleagues from
00:31:35.900 the rcmp will be appearing before this committee so perhaps more detail on that can be pursued with
00:31:42.060 them do you refer uh any allegations of uh violations of the elections act to the commissioner of
00:31:51.580 elections the commissioner of elections is an independent officer and indeed would pursue
00:31:58.780 uh in their own right uh the ability to uh look at allegations as they're brought forward
00:32:04.300 no that's not my question i mean if if if there was criminal activity or there's allegations of
00:32:09.580 criminal activity the commission of elections uh isn't necessarily going to be aware of that
00:32:16.060 is that part of what you do in in the case where these allegations come forward indeed um the rcmp
00:32:25.500 would pursue those those portions of allegations that that that fall under the the the criminal law
00:32:30.700 uh there would be a conversation indeed between the rcmp and and the elections act officials or
00:32:35.660 the commission officials uh to uh look at the corresponding violations that may occur under the
00:32:41.100 act that they would be responsible for indeed so so that is something that you do when when these
00:32:47.260 allegations arise uh you you do an investigation yourselves um and potentially uh you uh
00:32:56.940 also referred to the commissioner of elections uh for possible investigation yes
00:33:03.180 i i want to ask you uh and i go back to miss thomas how do you evaluate the extent of
00:33:09.980 of foreign interference and i'm speaking specifically in this case both of the chinese
00:33:15.180 government but also the russian government and russian actors that have been playing a major role
00:33:20.140 as we know in disrupting democracies including the united kingdom and the united states thank
00:33:26.300 you very much it's a very important question we rely on the national security agencies
00:33:32.140 along with the canadian forces intelligence command the foreign intelligence unit at global
00:33:37.420 Affairs Canada and allies to help us assess the depth and persistence of foreign interference in
00:33:44.220 Canada. As we said it's not new and it's not restricted or targeted on in Canada in particular.
00:33:52.860 We use a number of tools and tradecraft that certainly we're not going to discuss publicly
00:33:57.580 but the collection of intelligence and the analysis of that intelligence in its totality
00:34:02.860 not the individual pieces understanding the veracity of it understanding whether it's reliable
00:34:09.740 or not understanding if there is conflicting or contradicting information helps build that picture
00:34:17.820 certainly the activities of proxies play a role in that
00:34:21.820 thank you we will now continue with our um five minutes to mr cooper followed by mr turnbull
00:34:36.140 i'll be splitting my time with mr berthold excellent uh miss thomas you said in answer
00:34:43.020 to a question posed by mr julian but you would not be commenting on what you claimed were reports of
00:34:51.500 information that were inappropriately obtained i would remind you of section 15 of the security
00:35:00.700 and information act which provides that no person is guilty of an offense under section 13 or 14
00:35:08.860 if the person establishes that he or she acted in the public interest are you saying that it was
00:35:16.780 not in the public interest for the public to know about beijing's interference in our elections in
00:35:23.740 2019 and 2021 is that what you're telling this committee that is not even close to what i'm
00:35:30.060 telling this committee uh we have talked about foreign interference attempts publicly uh the
00:35:36.700 directors of director of cesus has the panel of five did jim judd did morris rose did would you
00:35:43.020 would you miss thomas agree that it is important to shine a light on issues of foreign interference
00:35:52.060 i would agree uh madam chair i would agree absolutely that it's important to shine a light on
00:35:57.500 matters of foreign interference i think it's important to do it
00:36:01.900 thank you i've limited time mr bertold so i'm just going to pause the clock
00:36:07.420 and do a friendly reminder because perhaps since it is a constituency we
00:36:11.180 we're not remembering that when multiple people are speaking on the mic it's
00:36:15.740 difficult for interpretation so as we are having a very important conversation
00:36:21.020 we do need to make sure that questions are posed and that provided a time to
00:36:26.000 answer so that we can get this information and I will continue being
00:36:29.500 lenient with some time to make sure we have that time so mr. Bertold I do la
00:36:33.840 parole mr. Bertold you have the floor thank you madam chair miss Thomas you
00:36:40.280 said several times you're not present in 2019 nor 2020 that you recently assumed
00:36:47.600 this this position so did you receive transition book from your predecessor
00:36:53.360 in fact I did not receive a transition book from my predecessor however I had
00:36:58.640 individual meetings with all the heads of the security agencies and my colleague
00:37:02.660 deputy ministers so since you've been in this position have you been made aware
00:37:08.480 of certain information that was reported in the Sean Cooper's article in November 7th 2022 before
00:37:15.920 it became public? I've read significant amount of intelligence about foreign interference in Canada
00:37:25.200 and some of the information I've read goes back and is dated in 2018 2019. Did you share that
00:37:33.280 information directly with the prime minister i did not share information with the prime minister
00:37:39.280 independently of incidents that occurred before i was here in this job did you discuss these
00:37:47.680 incidents since then with the prime minister well i'm not going to reveal what i have discussed
00:37:52.720 with the prime minister we have had very detailed and thorough conversations on foreign interference
00:37:57.520 who participates in this type of meeting there are a range of people certainly people on his
00:38:04.080 immediate staff members of the national security community uh and often the clerk of the privy
00:38:09.520 council is it possible for you to send us a list of the people who participate in these briefings
00:38:16.400 on foreign on foreign interference i can give you generalists yes you also mentioned earlier
00:38:24.800 that several ministers were informed through these daily briefings concerning foreign interference.
00:38:31.400 Could you please tell us which ministers participate in these types of briefings?
00:38:35.160 What I said was that the daily foreign intelligence bulletin that was referenced in a previous
00:38:40.640 question is distributed broadly to those who have clearance to read and it is provided
00:38:47.180 to some ministers.
00:38:50.220 Has it ever happened for you to have discussions with the Prime Minister and other cabinet
00:38:54.840 members with respect to these daily briefings on the subject of the Chinese foreign interference?
00:39:01.680 The daily foreign intelligence briefing is an assessed piece that gives highlights of
00:39:05.680 what's going on in terms of foreign interference on a range of subjects.
00:39:09.960 I don't normally use it as a basis for briefing.
00:39:14.220 I use, and it's not necessarily me briefing, the briefing material generally comes directly
00:39:21.660 from the National Security Agency rather than the assessed piece.
00:39:25.160 But sometimes, during your briefings with the Prime Minister, are other cabinet members
00:39:31.860 participating in these briefings?
00:39:34.660 There are a range of briefings, but especially on the topic that's at hand today.
00:39:42.180 Unless it is a discussion in cabinet or a cabinet committee,
00:39:46.780 the briefings are with the Prime Minister.
00:39:49.020 Thank you very much.
00:39:51.780 I could ask you the same questions as to information for Sam Cooper's Global News
00:39:57.800 and Global News reporting, as well as Robert Fyfe and Stephen Chase from February 17th.
00:40:03.280 I imagine that you will respond, that you've received information in several reports.
00:40:10.640 Thank you.
00:40:13.140 Mr. Turnbull up to five minutes for you. Thank you Madam Chair and thanks to our witnesses for being
00:40:19.380 here today. Ms. Thomas I'm going to focus on some short answer questions to you so I hope you can
00:40:25.540 keep your your answers short if possible. We've seen a number of concerning allegations over
00:40:33.140 the recent weeks with all the reporting that's been going on so I want to get a very clear
00:40:38.020 answer to this important question do you agree that if thesis through its intelligence gathering
00:40:43.860 becomes aware of a legal activity that information should be referred to relevant
00:40:48.660 authorities for further investigation
00:40:53.940 the simple answer to that question is yes um perfect thank you uh and there were
00:41:01.220 i want to follow that up with some specific examples in in the media reporting there were
00:41:06.340 reports that ceases allegedly became aware of instances where the difference between the
00:41:12.580 original political donation and the refund a person gets at tax time was returned to donors
00:41:19.300 so first would you agree that that constitutes an illegal activity uh that report was uh uh in the
00:41:28.580 media and of course the intelligence that backs it up is more complex than is probably evident
00:41:37.780 in the single clip or piece of that report that's been revealed in the media if there is a concern
00:41:45.620 about criminal activity the rcp receives the intelligence they are responsible for determining
00:41:51.060 what they will investigate and what they will pursue as you're very well aware police independence
00:41:55.940 is a critical element of uh canadian law enforcement and our judicial system
00:42:02.420 so my understanding is that that that would be an illegal activity if if those allegations were true
00:42:08.020 and cesus would then be required to refer their intelligence to the rcmp and the commissioner of
00:42:13.860 elections uh or both through either the site task force or otherwise is that not true uh there are
00:42:21.940 many ways that CSIS could refer information they work very closely with the RCMP and they have a
00:42:27.140 number of mechanisms to ensure the RCMP receives intelligence for their own purposes and when
00:42:32.340 they have a complete enough picture to refer to the RCMP. Okay great and so would if charges were
00:42:40.660 laid obviously that would become public would it not? There's a lot of process before charges are
00:42:47.060 laid but yes if charges were laid if there were an investigation yes thank you and mr tupper i
00:42:54.420 wonder wondered if you could comment on the next question which is do you know if the rcmp received
00:43:00.500 information from csis on this particular allegation around political donations and is the rcmp
00:43:07.460 investigating any matters regarding foreign interference in the last election i can confirm
00:43:14.580 that the rcmp is not in stating any of the allegations uh that are arising from the last
00:43:20.900 election on the specifics of the question of of of your the first part of your question i will
00:43:26.580 endeavor to come back because i don't have specifics on that thank you i appreciate that very
00:43:31.380 much so with regards to another csis or another report that csis allegedly found that business
00:43:40.740 owners hired international chinese students and assigned them to volunteer in election campaigns
00:43:49.380 on a full-time basis i want to ask the same question so would you agree that this would be
00:43:56.500 constitute or would be an illegal activity so miss thomas to you i can't say that that would
00:44:03.700 be an illegal activity um and i would have to have more information and certainly i'm not the arbiter
00:44:09.460 of what's illegal sure okay well i i i myself can confirm or feel very strongly that this would
00:44:17.700 constitute an illegal activity if it were true and if so uh if there was evidence to suggest that
00:44:24.260 that's true and intelligence then cesus and cesus became aware of that illegal activity then it
00:44:30.420 should obviously as per our previous uh lines of questioning would have to turn that information
00:44:37.460 over to appropriate authorities is that not true in in a simple world the answer is yes however
00:44:45.300 one single piece of intelligence depending on how credible the intelligence is multiple source
00:44:53.540 reporting there's a lot that goes into change the the translation of intelligence into evidence
00:45:02.340 it's a critical problem um often the information that ceases obtains can't be used for criminal
00:45:08.740 charges because it is not intelligence or criminal litigation because it's not evidence i apologize
00:45:14.660 and often um to proceed with from intelligence to evidence means it would reveal sources or
00:45:22.980 tradecraft that would be problematic and other decisions are made in terms of how
00:45:26.660 how that information will be dealt with.
00:45:31.660 Thank you.
00:45:32.660 Thank you.
00:45:33.660 Thank you, Madam Chair.
00:45:34.660 Thank you.
00:45:35.660 Madame Normandie.
00:45:37.660 Madame Normandie, you have two and a half minutes.
00:45:41.660 Thank you.
00:45:42.660 I'd like to come back to the information we received about support for a liberal candidate
00:45:50.660 through Chinese authorities.
00:45:54.660 this be considered as interference yes or no i think certainly it would be if it was covert
00:46:01.860 diplomats around the world as an example do have lists of politicians who are friendly
00:46:07.300 to canada as an example we do the same thing when it becomes vert not over not diplomacy
00:46:13.940 but uh behind the scenes machinations and perhaps malevolent yes i'll just interrupt you
00:46:21.940 since that's already been covered.
00:46:26.340 What about donations through third parties?
00:46:29.820 Can that be considered interference?
00:46:32.480 Again, if it is not in keeping with Canadian law, yes.
00:46:35.920 Thank you.
00:46:37.620 The information we received from the media
00:46:40.940 can constitute sources of interference.
00:46:46.700 I would like to know whether it was discussed
00:46:49.440 that that information be made public
00:46:51.000 before we heard about it through the media?
00:46:54.740 Again, that intelligence would likely not be made public
00:47:00.640 for the reasons I have cited previously,
00:47:03.480 but the discussion about foreign interference
00:47:06.700 and the attempts at foreign interference
00:47:08.960 to affect the election have been discussed publicly.
00:47:13.180 Thank you.
00:47:14.240 Insofar as we know that the Chinese Communist Party
00:47:19.260 exerts great pressure on the diaspora to achieve certain results I would like to
00:47:23.820 know if we don't make in for interference information public how can
00:47:29.580 we protect the Chinese diaspora here which is being threatened and pressured
00:47:34.260 with threats of revoked visas and so forth thank you for that question it's
00:47:41.640 super important question the the ability to build a trusting relationship with
00:47:46.320 diaspora communities in the country between those communities and government institutions is just
00:47:51.140 critical to our work. To that end, we engage directly with those communities. I have an
00:47:56.140 advisory board to me directly that helps me understand how we can better work with those
00:48:00.960 communities. The work, and I think the most perfect example of what you're asking us about
00:48:07.380 is the recent questions around Chinese police stations in the country, where we were able to
00:48:12.640 engage with communities we were able to do kind of public appeal post information post police
00:48:19.760 officers outside of those venues engage with with the chinese diplomats in the country that has
00:48:26.240 effectively stopped the activities of those five police stations so it is working through the
00:48:31.680 community working in a public way as best we can um that allows us to resist and to push back
00:48:38.960 against those kinds of foreign interference thank you mr julian two and a half minutes to yourself
00:48:48.720 thank you very much madam chair i have two questions
00:48:53.760 first of all did i correctly understand that it is automatic if there are allegations
00:48:59.920 about criminal activity
00:49:01.120 to go beyond the electoral lies?
00:49:05.880 Is it automatically referred for investigation?
00:49:11.060 Or is this something that agencies verify themselves before passing it on?
00:49:18.200 I touched on just briefly, which is the impact of Russian state actors.
00:49:23.260 We saw their impact in the 2016 election of Donald Trump in the Brexit referendum.
00:49:28.780 The massive subsidies going into the United Kingdom Conservative Party, and it is a scandal that erupted when the report was issued after the Conservatives were re-elected.
00:49:39.180 And, of course, we've had concerns raised about the connection, Russian state actors and the convoy groups here in Canada, reported by the National Observer and others, that a lot of the public telegram channels were created or repurposed to support the Freedom Convoy.
00:49:59.500 to what extent is there an ongoing evaluation of Russian dirty tricks when it comes to our
00:50:05.500 democratic system? And have you seen any impacts of this during our election campaign?
00:50:11.680 So maybe I can answer one aspect of that. And that relates to the RRN, the rapid response
00:50:18.160 mechanism that was established in 2018 by Canada in the context of the G7 to ensure that we were
00:50:25.300 monitoring disinformation and other online threats to our democracy and we've certainly been looking
00:50:32.020 at russian efforts at disinformation chinese and other actors so this is something that we monitor
00:50:38.660 on an ongoing basis in both english and french media but also foreign language media because
00:50:45.620 you're absolutely right this is something we need to monitor very carefully given its impact on our
00:50:50.820 democracy first question i asked was whether it was automatic when there are potential violations
00:51:02.340 or infractions according to the intelligence you receive infractions of the electoral act
00:51:08.340 is it autumn are those automatically referred so automatic um the community works together
00:51:16.580 The RCMP are part of the team that looks at this information.
00:51:22.100 So they do, in that sense, have ready access, automatic access to that information.
00:51:27.280 Obviously, the use of that information under the Elections Act or under the criminal law,
00:51:33.100 that has to be considered between the two agencies.
00:51:36.060 They both have their respective lanes in which they need to act.
00:51:40.740 But certainly that information is made readily available to the agencies who would be needing to know the information.
00:51:48.280 Thank you.
00:51:49.460 And now we'll just finish this round with, let's do about three and a half, four minutes to Mr. Calkins,
00:51:54.960 and then we will go to three and a half, four minutes to Mrs. Zahoda.
00:51:59.180 Mr. Calkins.
00:52:00.080 Thank you, Madam Chair.
00:52:00.900 My question will be for Ms. Thomas.
00:52:03.160 um would the prime minister ever be briefed or the prime minister's immediate aids ever be briefed
00:52:10.120 on foreign interference without the presence of the national security and intelligence advisor
00:52:14.800 i can't speak to what protocols existed before i became the national security advisor they are not
00:52:23.540 briefed on foreign interference by ceases or an outside agency without my being present
00:52:31.200 or they haven't been to my knowledge unless i happen to be out of town but then there would
00:52:35.800 be an official there for me in the event during an election campaign that a political entity
00:52:44.100 lodged a complaint or provided intelligence during the election process that foreign interference was
00:52:51.720 happening in a particular riding would that information be shared with the prime minister
00:52:56.400 it would not where would that information go that information comes from the security cleared member
00:53:04.960 of each party that has been discussed in terms of how we they will
00:53:09.520 interact with the panel that information would go to the panel of five and the site team
00:53:17.040 thank you very much i just want to talk a little bit about
00:53:20.480 a comment that you made at the defense committee in december of 2022 where you said no money was
00:53:26.160 exchanged during the 2019 election and i believe your quote was the news stories that you've read
00:53:30.560 about interference are just that news stories and we have not seen any money going to 11 candidates
00:53:35.840 period can you confirm that those were your words before the defense committee i can't confirm that
00:53:39.760 that was my exact quote but the connection that was being made between 11 candidates and 250 000
00:53:46.720 dollars is inaccurate so in light of the stories that have come out this week including those from
00:53:52.560 robert fife and stephen chase about an illegal donation to the trudeau foundation in 2015 do
00:53:56.960 you still feel like your statements from that december are accurate i still feel that my
00:54:03.200 statements from that statement about that particular situation were accurate
00:54:08.320 would you confirm with me that because you've referred to the uh ensacop committee uh as a
00:54:19.120 mechanism that we can be assured that information is being shared can you confirm that a member of
00:54:23.600 ensacop is not allowed to share information with his or her colleagues or his or her leader
00:54:28.400 that is the premise of that committee and that would be your expectation that information would
00:54:33.440 be shared would be my expectation would an ensacop report ever be released to the public without
00:54:37.520 going through your office or the prime minister's office uh the the committee's uh unredacted
00:54:44.480 reports uh are shared with the prime minister and redacted reports are released to the public
00:54:50.560 thank you madam chair thank you mrs tahoda three minutes to you thank you madam chair um my question
00:55:01.840 is to miss thomas uh i understand that cesus has authorities to disrupt attempts of foreign
00:55:08.160 interference and uh while you probably can't get into operational matters can you explain the types
00:55:13.920 of tools that cesus has available to disrupt foreign interference and um if there's any
00:55:20.720 specifics i'd like to um specifically have you mention what those tools are i don't think those
00:55:26.480 are comments that i can make in an open forum okay um how about for example if thesis was aware that
00:55:34.720 a foreign official more specifically someone who works at a consulate trying to interfere
00:55:39.120 in a canadian election um would cesus have the mandate to respond could they for instance
00:55:46.320 endeavor to use a tool and just go and speak to that official at that consulate certainly they
00:55:53.920 can use threat reduction measures um which is what they're formally called to go speak to
00:55:58.480 an individual and and they can also um speak to uh the person being targeted
00:56:06.480 can you assure this committee that ceases endeavors to use the tools at least even if you
00:56:11.360 can't get into specifics of what those tools are that they at least endeavor to use those tools
00:56:16.160 if uh and when they feel that there is a need because of foreign intervention of foreign
00:56:21.680 interference uh yes i can assure this committee that ceases leans forward and uses the tools at
00:56:27.360 its disposal um to the fullest extent possible and mandated by law and their act um so the
00:56:36.720 instances we've been hearing about in the global news reports uh do you feel to your knowledge that
00:56:42.560 ceases did use the tools that they have at their disposal uh to intervene in these matters uh again
00:56:50.080 i'm not going to speak about specific cases and jeopardize the work that cesis does
00:56:56.240 the director of cesis has more leeway to answer that question about his specific work than i do
00:57:01.680 okay and i intend to explore those questions with them as well thank you
00:57:08.960 is that that it mrs hoda yes excellent wow um with that i would like to thank our guests for
00:57:17.920 joining us today thank you for your time and attention if there's additional information
00:57:22.560 as has been requested we look forward to you submitting it to the clerk and we'll share it
00:57:26.720 with all members of the committee with that i wish you a really good day and thank you for
00:57:31.920 the good work you do we will suspend briefly and have the next panel join us thank you
00:57:47.920 Thank you.
00:58:17.920 Thank you.
00:58:47.920 Thank you.
00:59:17.920 You