China Hearings ｜ National Security Advisor Jody Thomas questioned on foreign interference
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Summary
Findings from the 55th Meeting of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. The committee is meeting today for a hearing on the motion, Spending Order 1083a, and the motion agreed to on February 21, 2023, concerning foreign election interference.
Transcript
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...meeting to the 55th meeting of the Standing Committee on Procedure and of House Affairs.
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The committee is meeting today for spending order 108.3a and the motion agreed to on February 21st, 2023 concerning foreign election interference.
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Before we start, a reminder that all comments should be addressed through the chair.
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The clerk and I will maintain consolidated speaking lists of members wishing to speak.
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For the first hour, we have with us today from 3 to 4 p.m.
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From the Privy Council Office, Jody Thomas, National Security Intelligence Advisor.
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From the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, Cindy Turmoseisen,
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And from the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, Sean Tupper, Deputy Minister.
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um i just see mr cooper would like the floor real quick thank you madam chair a very brief
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housekeeping matter i would note that house resources are available up until 11 p.m this
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evening and given that we have two hours with witnesses it is my intent to move our conservative
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motion that was put on notice that among other things calls for katie telford to testify before
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this committee testimony that is essential to get to the heart of what is at issue and that is what
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did the prime minister know when did he know it and what did he do or fail to do about beijing's
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election interference and on that basis madam chair respectfully i just wish to indicate that
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you do not have the implied consent of the official opposition to adjourn at 5 p.m.
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Thank you, Mr. Cooper. So you're not moving your motion at this time?
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Yes, or when we're done with the panel, the second panel.
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Thank you, Mr. Cooper. So I believe we will now resume with our witnesses who have so kindly
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joined us today mrs thomas you will be providing opening remarks and we welcome them now thank you
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thank you very much thank you madam chair and members of the committee for the opportunity to
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appear today with colleagues my colleague and moi appuyant lay effort du committee
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to study the question of the foreign language in Canada.
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Thank you, Madam Chair, members of the committee for the opportunity to appear today with my colleagues.
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My colleagues and I support the committee's efforts to study foreign interference within Canada.
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It is very important to reassure Canadians that the last two federal elections were fair and legitimate.
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Canadians have questions about foreign interference attempts during the last elections
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and we will endeavor to answer those questions in the most transparent way possible within the
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limits of the law we as national security officials have a duty to protect classified information
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an authorized sharing of classified information is in fact prohibited by the security of information
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act that is not to say that we cannot or should not talk about foreign interference which is not
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a new phenomena nor is it unique to canada like others we believe this threat is on the rise and
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increasingly complex the greatest foreign interference threat to canada comes from the
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people's republic of china though other states like russia and iran are also attempting to convert
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covertly or corrosively interfere in our affairs as highlighted in many public reports including
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from ceases in the national security and intelligence committee of parliamentarians
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foreign interference takes on many forms such as undue pressure on politicians staff and public
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servants to obtain information or sway decisions intimidation of diasporas or other communities
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including for example by denying visas to visit family miss or disinformation to weaken canada's
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societal cohesion we have seen this play out in the context of canada's support to ukraine
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encroachments into our territory or networks for intelligence collection theft of our science data
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and research measuring the short and long-term impacts of foreign interference is a challenge
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we know that it costs canada tens of billions of dollars annually in lost profitability
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erodes canadian technological advantages particularly in emerging technologies
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undermines national unity and sows discontent threatens the safety of targeted individuals
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and their entourage or families and challenges democracy over the past few years we have taken
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a number of steps to more effectively detect deter and counter foreign interference in all of its
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forms including but not only during election periods one effective way to do so is to talk
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about the threat and how we mitigate it without jeopardizing the sources and techniques used to
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gather intelligence and keep canadians safe as i said one of our responsibilities as senior
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officials of the security and intelligence community is to be as transparent as possible
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without further challenging national security or further damaging trust in our democratic
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institutions as such we have been engaging with communities academia industry and politicians to
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raise awareness and provide tools to help address this broad complex threat such tools include the
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security and intelligence threats to election task force and the critical election incident
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public protocol these mechanisms helped ensure that the 2019 and 2021 federal elections were
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indeed fair and legitimate despite foreign interference attempts as described by minister
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blair in the december 2020 letter to members of parliament our broader counter foreign
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interference toolkit also includes countering missing disinformation including using active
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cyber tools and leading the g7 rapid response mechanism enhancing research security including
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with guidance to research granting councils protecting our networks from malicious actors
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including through the creation of the Canadian Centre for Cybersecurity,
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investigating, disrupting, and or prosecuting foreign interference activity.
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We cannot paint an overly optimistic picture. Things change, tools and methods change.
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Our adversaries adapt quickly and find innovative ways to interfere in our affairs, and so we must
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continue to learn, including from one election to the next, to refine our collective defenses
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and adapt to this evolving threat part of this is better informing canadians of the threats we face
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i will stress again that this must be done responsibly without putting at risk the physical
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safety of our human resources our human sources and employees by publicly divulging classified
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material given the very nature of intelligence individual reports when taken out of context
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may be incomplete and misrepresentative of the full story we must also carefully consider that
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as recently suggested by senator shugart in some cases publicly disclosing intelligence on foreign
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states specific attempts to interfere may ultimately play into their hands including
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by potentially affecting outcomes of electoral processes and creating confusion to conclude
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while i was not in my current role in 2019 or 2021 i speak for the security and intelligence
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community when i say that we are clear-eyed and understanding the challenge posed by foreign
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interference we are taking concrete steps to strengthen our counter foreign interference
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approach including by making sure that those who engage in such activities face consequences
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again as minister blair stated in his letter to members of parliament we cannot always make
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government actions public in this sphere our sustained efforts make a difference in the lives
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of canadians once again thank you my colleagues and i will be pleased to answer your questions
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We'll now go into our question round, starting with six minutes,
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starting with Mr. Cooper, followed by Mr. Fergus,
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followed by Madam Normandais, and then Mr. Julian.
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Thank you, Ms. Thomas, and to all of the witnesses
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i'll direct my questions to ms thomas on february 24th 2023 sam cooper of global news reported that
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three weeks before the 2019 election cesus officials gave an urgent briefing to senior
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aides in the prime minister's office warning them a then liberal candidate who is now a sitting
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liberal mp had received assistance from beijing's toronto consulate in his nomination campaign on
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what date was the prime minister briefed about this as i stated i was not in this job in 2019
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and so i do not know when the prime minister was briefed and and i realize you were not in that
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job but would you undertake to confirm the date that the prime minister was briefed about that
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I will certainly do that. And as you're aware, the director of CSIS will be here at this committee.
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Thank you. So you will undertake to do that. Thank you very much.
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What are the names of the senior aides in the Prime Minister's office who were briefed by CSIS about Beijing's interference to help this then-liberal candidate and now-sitting Liberal MP?
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I, again, I was not at that briefing. So speculating on...
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Who was briefed? CSIS will be here and they'll be able to answer that question for you.
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So will you undertake, given that you are the National Security Advisor to the Prime Minister,
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to provide the committee with the names of senior aides in the Prime Minister's office,
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as reported by Global News, who were briefed by CSIS?
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I will undertake to report the names of who was briefed as informed to me by CSIS.
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Robert Fyfe and Stephen Chase in a February 17, 2023 article in the Globe and Mail reported
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that the Prime Minister received a national security briefing last fall in which he was
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told that Beijing's consulate in Toronto was involved with assisting 11 candidates in the
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2019 election on what date was the prime minister briefed about this i don't have my calendar in
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front of me i will give you that date you will undertake to provide that date thank you very much
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on november 7th 2022 sam cooper of global news reported that the prime minister and several
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cabinet ministers received a series of briefings and memos about beijing's efforts to subvert
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canada's democratic process including interfering in the 2019 election can you confirm that the
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prime minister was briefed about this the prime minister is briefed quite continuously on foreign
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interference i asked a very specific question and that was in regards to what sam cooper reported
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on november 7 2022 was the prime minister briefed um what is the date you're asking about his
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briefing you're telling me the date of the report not the date of the briefing that began in january
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of 2022 um since january 2022 i will give you the dates when we've briefed the prime minister
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formally we also have informal discussions with them frequently about foreign interference
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and the activities in the national security community so put it this way will you undertake
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to provide the dates that the Prime Minister was briefed with respect to Sam Cooper's report
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of November 7, 2022? I can't give you the dates that the Prime Minister was briefed about media
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reports. I can tell you the dates he was briefed about foreign interference. Okay, so with that,
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how many times was the Prime Minister briefed about Beijing's interference in the 2019 and
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2021 elections? The Prime Minister would have been briefed on foreign interference in the
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elections multiple times between 2019 and 2021 and 2022. We will endeavor to get you those dates.
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can you so you will undertake to provide the dates and the agencies and those involved in
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briefing the prime minister we will endeavor to get the dates every instance that he was briefed
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in respect of Beijing's election I will do my best but again I was not in this job at the time
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Okay. A redacted report entitled Daily Foreign Intelligence Brief dated February 21, 2020,
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from the Intelligence Assessment Secretariat at PCO provided to this committee in the production
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process states that there were, quote, subtle but effective interference networks, end of quote,
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by Beijing in the 2019 election and provides the following assessment, quote, investigations into
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activities linked to the Canadian federal election in 2019 reveal an active foreign interference
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network uh end of quote on what date was the what dated on what date did the pco share this
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information with the prime minister that information is widely circulated and is available
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in daily reading packages and the prime minister would have received that it would have been in a
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daily reading package and uh would any ministers have received that uh in all likelihood yes
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thank you mr fergus mr fergus thank you madam chair here today to the can you briefly describe
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what foreign interference means to the national security and intelligence agencies and you know
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because here we're talking about electoral interference but i'm certain the definition
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is larger than that it deals with academia businesses and other aspects of society can
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you briefly outline what foreign interference means to your community i'm happy to mr tupper
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is responsible the deputy minister responsible for the agency so perhaps he would like to weigh in
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it's a great question because it is a complex web of activity uh we take very much a whole
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of society approach to looking at foreign interference uh you noted a number of areas
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that we look at democratic institutions we look at particular communities within the country to
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ensure we have an understanding of what's going on and the kind of interference that may be occurring
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in diaspora communities we pay attention to economic and national security issues in terms
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of attempts to disrupt our economy so that might be looking at at banks and and the rules and
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regulations that surround and protect our financial institutions certainly on the international
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affairs side uh we would have fairly comprehensive reporting and and and awareness of of our
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activities and our partnerships with our allies to jointly work together and then finally we pay
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an inordinate amount of attention to our critical infrastructure the disruption of our grids of our
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pipelines would have massive disruption in our communities so we pay a lot of attention to that
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Thank you. Is it fair to say that foreign interference is not new?
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And are, have governments taken steps towards this?
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What, are the national security agencies involved in that process to try to combat foreign interference?
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How long would you say that national security...
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As long as governments have opposed one another, I would offer.
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I think the real shift, though, has occurred in the last five or six years.
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And I think the more typical activities of espionage, of suitcases full of money, of coercion,
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those are things we've known about for a very long time.
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But over the last number of years, I think through the use of social media,
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the ability to invoke cyber attacks against states,
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it has really escalated our awareness and our attention to the area
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simply because it's more pervasive, it's more aggressive,
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and the potential for damage to our democracy is that much more serious.
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I think largely post the 2016 American election, where we started to understand how foreign
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countries were trying to influence that election, I think it was a real learning point for us to
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understand particularly what the Russians had been doing. So we have paid more and more attention
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since that time to really understand and make sure that we have awareness of what's going on
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in Canada and the kinds of activities that are centered on the Canadian state.
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I want to talk about some allegations that I've been able to read from Waleed Suleiman,
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who has said publicly that he served as a Conservative Party's representative on the CITE Task Force in 2021.
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He said allegations of foreign interference were brought forward as a part of the CITE Task Force engagement with political parties,
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Thank you very much for the question, Madam Chair.
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I, again, was not on the task force or the panel at that time.
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We do have very clear documentation from that representative of that political party
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asking questions and stating concerns with a very detailed response back to him
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on or about October 22nd, indicating that the—
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2021 that the uh allegations were being taken very seriously but that we did not see um
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the evidence that he presented in the intelligence to support the claims now there have been claims
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since then and we're reviewing that information to understand um the full sure as broadly as is
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possible but he was given a very thorough response at the time thomas is there anything to suggest
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that the facts have changed since that original assessment was given there is no response to his
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claims there is nothing that suggests um that the outcome um and that the writings that he was
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concerned about were uh affected by attempts at foreign interference uh there certainly were
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attempts we have denied that but intelligence evolves and we get more information we obtain
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more information there's more sources that become available and we have to continuously assess the
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picture and our understanding of any given situation and so information has come to light
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since that response was given and i've asked that we just review it and be able to understand and
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answer questions about it. Thank you. Were there other allegations which were
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brought forward at the time from other parties? Not that I'm aware of, no. Thank
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you very much, Madam Chair. Thank you very much. Madame Normandie,
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Ms. Normandie, welcome. You have six minutes. Thank you. Ms. Thomas, earlier
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You stated that you were not in your job at the time when allegations about a liberal
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candidate who had been helped by China, you were not there when those allegations came
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But you were there when the Prime Minister said it was not the role of thesis to determine
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What message does this send to those people wishing to interfere in the democratic system
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This idea that CSIS information was more or less put in a drawer, information about a
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problematic political candidate, what message does this send in terms of security?
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Does it give an impression that this issue is not as important as it is?
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question madam chair I would suggest that's not the conclusion I would draw
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the conclusion I would draw is that CSIS provides information they build an
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intelligence picture they investigate and they provide information to
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decision-makers up into up to and including the Prime Minister I agree with
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the Prime Minister CSIS does not determine who should be a candidate and
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who should not they provide for all parties where there is a concern and if there is a concern
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information that parties then use in their nomination processes for their own purpose in
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according to their own rules regulations and bylaws that govern that party cesis provides
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The Prime Minister stated that he had not received information about the allegations
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from CSIS, or rather that he wouldn't confirm or deny.
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I want to talk about the fact that there were people who had information and provided it
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What message does this send in terms of national security?
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fact that some CSIS employees seem to be risking their very careers just to leak this information
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to the media. Is the message being sent that the Prime Minister didn't take it seriously
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Thank you very much for the question. It's a very important question. We in the public
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service are the guardians of protected information. We share information to those people who have
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security clearances or in roles of authority where they can make decisions the unlawful sharing of
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information and the inappropriate sharing of information i believe jeopardizes our national
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security it jeopardizes institutions and it puts people at risk both employees and subjects of
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investigations at unnecessary risk and it's very concerning i'm not going to speculate on the
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motivations seems to be an essential question this idea that information was leaked to the media
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does this not justify the need for a public inquiry a more wide-ranging public inquiry
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to examine issues of interference in depth inquiries like this one i think are very
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important in terms of understanding what happened and so i applaud that you are doing this
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i think it is important to talk about foreign interference i think it's important to talk
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about the electoral process a public inquiry will have the same limitations that this committee does
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in that we cannot talk about national security information in a public forum the national
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security and intelligence committee of parliamentarians was created for situations
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like this where we can be absolutely transparent with them and they can see the um secret top
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secret protected information that was used to make decisions and to inform decision makers
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and so i would um if an inquiry were to happen it is through a body like that that i would recommend
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because an open forum is going to have the same limitations that this body does thinking of the
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impression that that this could to give the idea that this release could cause a panic
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How would you assess the fact that people wishing to shine a light on foreign interference,
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which may have taken place during elections, were accused of racism?
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Does this not create cynicism, cynicism that could be countered through a public inquiry
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through through groups ensured with analyzing elections are we not contributing to cynicism
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I think it's important to note that members of the Chinese community came out yesterday and said
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it is important to talk about this that the health and well-being of diaspora communities and mem
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Canadians from countries who participate in foreign interference feel protected as Canadians
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And I think that is a really essential element of having a nation as multicultural as ours,
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is that Canadians do feel equal and do feel protected by the national security community.
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I think that is why the work that is being done on foreign interference is so important,
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Mr. Julian, I see your lips moving, but I don't hear your voice.
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you want to unplug it one time and plug it in again we did do a sound check correct
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huh we did go it's a miracle excellent hearing your voice thanks to our it team we did do a
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sound check uh thank you madam chair i'd like to start off uh by providing a notice of motion
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this motion was circulated to committee yesterday with 48-hour notice period i would be moving it
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tomorrow the notice of motion reads as following that the committee report to the house that it
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calls on the government of canada to launch a national public inquiry into allegations of
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foreign interference in canada's democratic system including but not limited to allegations of
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interference in general elections by foreign governments that this inquiry be granted all
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necessary powers to call witnesses from the government and from political parties including
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but not limited to ministers former ministers chiefs of staff to the prime minister and to the
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leader of the official opposition during the 2019 and 2021 federal election campaigns and
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campaign directors for the 2019 and 2021 federal election campaigns of the liberal party of canada
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and the conservative party of canada and that this inquiry have the power to order and review
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all documents it deems necessary for this work including documents which are related to national
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security i will be moving that formally tomorrow thank you madam chair i would like to go to our
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witnesses uh madame thomas you you stated that you in the position uh when the events that have been
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described uh happened but you have been in your position i'm sure able to read the articles
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written by robert fife and stephen chase uh seen of course the reports by sam cooper on global news
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will you acknowledge that the allegations that are contained in those reports are factual
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i'm not going to comment on information that was appropriately obtained the
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The concept and the problem and the severity of foreign interference is well documented.
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That there was attempts at foreign interference in the 2019 and 2021 federal elections has been documented
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and is quite transparent in the reports done by Jim Judd and Morris Rosenberg.
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And so I acknowledge that foreign interference has been attempted.
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if those allegations are correct this constitutes criminal violations of the elections act as we
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saw with the in and out scandal uh back under the harper government dean del mastro of course
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in his case is a conservative mp uh does your evaluation include criminal activity
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So in cases where there are allegations of breaches of election law, those are criminal
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allegations, and in those contexts, how do you respond?
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The RCMP form a critical part of the team of people who assess activities during elections.
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were aware of the information that was brought forward they have looked at that information
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and have concluded that they will not pursue a criminal investigation i know my colleagues from
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the rcmp will be appearing before this committee so perhaps more detail on that can be pursued with
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them do you refer uh any allegations of uh violations of the elections act to the commissioner of
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elections the commissioner of elections is an independent officer and indeed would pursue
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uh in their own right uh the ability to uh look at allegations as they're brought forward
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no that's not my question i mean if if if there was criminal activity or there's allegations of
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criminal activity the commission of elections uh isn't necessarily going to be aware of that
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is that part of what you do in in the case where these allegations come forward indeed um the rcmp
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would pursue those those portions of allegations that that that fall under the the the criminal law
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uh there would be a conversation indeed between the rcmp and and the elections act officials or
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the commission officials uh to uh look at the corresponding violations that may occur under the
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act that they would be responsible for indeed so so that is something that you do when when these
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allegations arise uh you you do an investigation yourselves um and potentially uh you uh
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also referred to the commissioner of elections uh for possible investigation yes
00:33:03.180
i i want to ask you uh and i go back to miss thomas how do you evaluate the extent of
00:33:09.980
of foreign interference and i'm speaking specifically in this case both of the chinese
00:33:15.180
government but also the russian government and russian actors that have been playing a major role
00:33:20.140
as we know in disrupting democracies including the united kingdom and the united states thank
00:33:26.300
you very much it's a very important question we rely on the national security agencies
00:33:32.140
along with the canadian forces intelligence command the foreign intelligence unit at global
00:33:37.420
Affairs Canada and allies to help us assess the depth and persistence of foreign interference in
00:33:44.220
Canada. As we said it's not new and it's not restricted or targeted on in Canada in particular.
00:33:52.860
We use a number of tools and tradecraft that certainly we're not going to discuss publicly
00:33:57.580
but the collection of intelligence and the analysis of that intelligence in its totality
00:34:02.860
not the individual pieces understanding the veracity of it understanding whether it's reliable
00:34:09.740
or not understanding if there is conflicting or contradicting information helps build that picture
00:34:17.820
certainly the activities of proxies play a role in that
00:34:21.820
thank you we will now continue with our um five minutes to mr cooper followed by mr turnbull
00:34:36.140
i'll be splitting my time with mr berthold excellent uh miss thomas you said in answer
00:34:43.020
to a question posed by mr julian but you would not be commenting on what you claimed were reports of
00:34:51.500
information that were inappropriately obtained i would remind you of section 15 of the security
00:35:00.700
and information act which provides that no person is guilty of an offense under section 13 or 14
00:35:08.860
if the person establishes that he or she acted in the public interest are you saying that it was
00:35:16.780
not in the public interest for the public to know about beijing's interference in our elections in
00:35:23.740
2019 and 2021 is that what you're telling this committee that is not even close to what i'm
00:35:30.060
telling this committee uh we have talked about foreign interference attempts publicly uh the
00:35:36.700
directors of director of cesus has the panel of five did jim judd did morris rose did would you
00:35:43.020
would you miss thomas agree that it is important to shine a light on issues of foreign interference
00:35:52.060
i would agree uh madam chair i would agree absolutely that it's important to shine a light on
00:35:57.500
matters of foreign interference i think it's important to do it
00:36:01.900
thank you i've limited time mr bertold so i'm just going to pause the clock
00:36:07.420
and do a friendly reminder because perhaps since it is a constituency we
00:36:11.180
we're not remembering that when multiple people are speaking on the mic it's
00:36:15.740
difficult for interpretation so as we are having a very important conversation
00:36:21.020
we do need to make sure that questions are posed and that provided a time to
00:36:26.000
answer so that we can get this information and I will continue being
00:36:29.500
lenient with some time to make sure we have that time so mr. Bertold I do la
00:36:33.840
parole mr. Bertold you have the floor thank you madam chair miss Thomas you
00:36:40.280
said several times you're not present in 2019 nor 2020 that you recently assumed
00:36:47.600
this this position so did you receive transition book from your predecessor
00:36:53.360
in fact I did not receive a transition book from my predecessor however I had
00:36:58.640
individual meetings with all the heads of the security agencies and my colleague
00:37:02.660
deputy ministers so since you've been in this position have you been made aware
00:37:08.480
of certain information that was reported in the Sean Cooper's article in November 7th 2022 before
00:37:15.920
it became public? I've read significant amount of intelligence about foreign interference in Canada
00:37:25.200
and some of the information I've read goes back and is dated in 2018 2019. Did you share that
00:37:33.280
information directly with the prime minister i did not share information with the prime minister
00:37:39.280
independently of incidents that occurred before i was here in this job did you discuss these
00:37:47.680
incidents since then with the prime minister well i'm not going to reveal what i have discussed
00:37:52.720
with the prime minister we have had very detailed and thorough conversations on foreign interference
00:37:57.520
who participates in this type of meeting there are a range of people certainly people on his
00:38:04.080
immediate staff members of the national security community uh and often the clerk of the privy
00:38:09.520
council is it possible for you to send us a list of the people who participate in these briefings
00:38:16.400
on foreign on foreign interference i can give you generalists yes you also mentioned earlier
00:38:24.800
that several ministers were informed through these daily briefings concerning foreign interference.
00:38:31.400
Could you please tell us which ministers participate in these types of briefings?
00:38:35.160
What I said was that the daily foreign intelligence bulletin that was referenced in a previous
00:38:40.640
question is distributed broadly to those who have clearance to read and it is provided
00:38:50.220
Has it ever happened for you to have discussions with the Prime Minister and other cabinet
00:38:54.840
members with respect to these daily briefings on the subject of the Chinese foreign interference?
00:39:01.680
The daily foreign intelligence briefing is an assessed piece that gives highlights of
00:39:05.680
what's going on in terms of foreign interference on a range of subjects.
00:39:09.960
I don't normally use it as a basis for briefing.
00:39:14.220
I use, and it's not necessarily me briefing, the briefing material generally comes directly
00:39:21.660
from the National Security Agency rather than the assessed piece.
00:39:25.160
But sometimes, during your briefings with the Prime Minister, are other cabinet members
00:39:34.660
There are a range of briefings, but especially on the topic that's at hand today.
00:39:42.180
Unless it is a discussion in cabinet or a cabinet committee,
00:39:51.780
I could ask you the same questions as to information for Sam Cooper's Global News
00:39:57.800
and Global News reporting, as well as Robert Fyfe and Stephen Chase from February 17th.
00:40:03.280
I imagine that you will respond, that you've received information in several reports.
00:40:13.140
Mr. Turnbull up to five minutes for you. Thank you Madam Chair and thanks to our witnesses for being
00:40:19.380
here today. Ms. Thomas I'm going to focus on some short answer questions to you so I hope you can
00:40:25.540
keep your your answers short if possible. We've seen a number of concerning allegations over
00:40:33.140
the recent weeks with all the reporting that's been going on so I want to get a very clear
00:40:38.020
answer to this important question do you agree that if thesis through its intelligence gathering
00:40:43.860
becomes aware of a legal activity that information should be referred to relevant
00:40:53.940
the simple answer to that question is yes um perfect thank you uh and there were
00:41:01.220
i want to follow that up with some specific examples in in the media reporting there were
00:41:06.340
reports that ceases allegedly became aware of instances where the difference between the
00:41:12.580
original political donation and the refund a person gets at tax time was returned to donors
00:41:19.300
so first would you agree that that constitutes an illegal activity uh that report was uh uh in the
00:41:28.580
media and of course the intelligence that backs it up is more complex than is probably evident
00:41:37.780
in the single clip or piece of that report that's been revealed in the media if there is a concern
00:41:45.620
about criminal activity the rcp receives the intelligence they are responsible for determining
00:41:51.060
what they will investigate and what they will pursue as you're very well aware police independence
00:41:55.940
is a critical element of uh canadian law enforcement and our judicial system
00:42:02.420
so my understanding is that that that would be an illegal activity if if those allegations were true
00:42:08.020
and cesus would then be required to refer their intelligence to the rcmp and the commissioner of
00:42:13.860
elections uh or both through either the site task force or otherwise is that not true uh there are
00:42:21.940
many ways that CSIS could refer information they work very closely with the RCMP and they have a
00:42:27.140
number of mechanisms to ensure the RCMP receives intelligence for their own purposes and when
00:42:32.340
they have a complete enough picture to refer to the RCMP. Okay great and so would if charges were
00:42:40.660
laid obviously that would become public would it not? There's a lot of process before charges are
00:42:47.060
laid but yes if charges were laid if there were an investigation yes thank you and mr tupper i
00:42:54.420
wonder wondered if you could comment on the next question which is do you know if the rcmp received
00:43:00.500
information from csis on this particular allegation around political donations and is the rcmp
00:43:07.460
investigating any matters regarding foreign interference in the last election i can confirm
00:43:14.580
that the rcmp is not in stating any of the allegations uh that are arising from the last
00:43:20.900
election on the specifics of the question of of of your the first part of your question i will
00:43:26.580
endeavor to come back because i don't have specifics on that thank you i appreciate that very
00:43:31.380
much so with regards to another csis or another report that csis allegedly found that business
00:43:40.740
owners hired international chinese students and assigned them to volunteer in election campaigns
00:43:49.380
on a full-time basis i want to ask the same question so would you agree that this would be
00:43:56.500
constitute or would be an illegal activity so miss thomas to you i can't say that that would
00:44:03.700
be an illegal activity um and i would have to have more information and certainly i'm not the arbiter
00:44:09.460
of what's illegal sure okay well i i i myself can confirm or feel very strongly that this would
00:44:17.700
constitute an illegal activity if it were true and if so uh if there was evidence to suggest that
00:44:24.260
that's true and intelligence then cesus and cesus became aware of that illegal activity then it
00:44:30.420
should obviously as per our previous uh lines of questioning would have to turn that information
00:44:37.460
over to appropriate authorities is that not true in in a simple world the answer is yes however
00:44:45.300
one single piece of intelligence depending on how credible the intelligence is multiple source
00:44:53.540
reporting there's a lot that goes into change the the translation of intelligence into evidence
00:45:02.340
it's a critical problem um often the information that ceases obtains can't be used for criminal
00:45:08.740
charges because it is not intelligence or criminal litigation because it's not evidence i apologize
00:45:14.660
and often um to proceed with from intelligence to evidence means it would reveal sources or
00:45:22.980
tradecraft that would be problematic and other decisions are made in terms of how
00:45:37.660
Madame Normandie, you have two and a half minutes.
00:45:42.660
I'd like to come back to the information we received about support for a liberal candidate
00:45:54.660
this be considered as interference yes or no i think certainly it would be if it was covert
00:46:01.860
diplomats around the world as an example do have lists of politicians who are friendly
00:46:07.300
to canada as an example we do the same thing when it becomes vert not over not diplomacy
00:46:13.940
but uh behind the scenes machinations and perhaps malevolent yes i'll just interrupt you
00:46:32.480
Again, if it is not in keeping with Canadian law, yes.
00:46:54.740
Again, that intelligence would likely not be made public
00:47:08.960
to affect the election have been discussed publicly.
00:47:14.240
Insofar as we know that the Chinese Communist Party
00:47:19.260
exerts great pressure on the diaspora to achieve certain results I would like to
00:47:23.820
know if we don't make in for interference information public how can
00:47:29.580
we protect the Chinese diaspora here which is being threatened and pressured
00:47:34.260
with threats of revoked visas and so forth thank you for that question it's
00:47:41.640
super important question the the ability to build a trusting relationship with
00:47:46.320
diaspora communities in the country between those communities and government institutions is just
00:47:51.140
critical to our work. To that end, we engage directly with those communities. I have an
00:47:56.140
advisory board to me directly that helps me understand how we can better work with those
00:48:00.960
communities. The work, and I think the most perfect example of what you're asking us about
00:48:07.380
is the recent questions around Chinese police stations in the country, where we were able to
00:48:12.640
engage with communities we were able to do kind of public appeal post information post police
00:48:19.760
officers outside of those venues engage with with the chinese diplomats in the country that has
00:48:26.240
effectively stopped the activities of those five police stations so it is working through the
00:48:31.680
community working in a public way as best we can um that allows us to resist and to push back
00:48:38.960
against those kinds of foreign interference thank you mr julian two and a half minutes to yourself
00:48:48.720
thank you very much madam chair i have two questions
00:48:53.760
first of all did i correctly understand that it is automatic if there are allegations
00:49:05.880
Is it automatically referred for investigation?
00:49:11.060
Or is this something that agencies verify themselves before passing it on?
00:49:18.200
I touched on just briefly, which is the impact of Russian state actors.
00:49:23.260
We saw their impact in the 2016 election of Donald Trump in the Brexit referendum.
00:49:28.780
The massive subsidies going into the United Kingdom Conservative Party, and it is a scandal that erupted when the report was issued after the Conservatives were re-elected.
00:49:39.180
And, of course, we've had concerns raised about the connection, Russian state actors and the convoy groups here in Canada, reported by the National Observer and others, that a lot of the public telegram channels were created or repurposed to support the Freedom Convoy.
00:49:59.500
to what extent is there an ongoing evaluation of Russian dirty tricks when it comes to our
00:50:05.500
democratic system? And have you seen any impacts of this during our election campaign?
00:50:11.680
So maybe I can answer one aspect of that. And that relates to the RRN, the rapid response
00:50:18.160
mechanism that was established in 2018 by Canada in the context of the G7 to ensure that we were
00:50:25.300
monitoring disinformation and other online threats to our democracy and we've certainly been looking
00:50:32.020
at russian efforts at disinformation chinese and other actors so this is something that we monitor
00:50:38.660
on an ongoing basis in both english and french media but also foreign language media because
00:50:45.620
you're absolutely right this is something we need to monitor very carefully given its impact on our
00:50:50.820
democracy first question i asked was whether it was automatic when there are potential violations
00:51:02.340
or infractions according to the intelligence you receive infractions of the electoral act
00:51:08.340
is it autumn are those automatically referred so automatic um the community works together
00:51:16.580
The RCMP are part of the team that looks at this information.
00:51:22.100
So they do, in that sense, have ready access, automatic access to that information.
00:51:27.280
Obviously, the use of that information under the Elections Act or under the criminal law,
00:51:33.100
that has to be considered between the two agencies.
00:51:36.060
They both have their respective lanes in which they need to act.
00:51:40.740
But certainly that information is made readily available to the agencies who would be needing to know the information.
00:51:49.460
And now we'll just finish this round with, let's do about three and a half, four minutes to Mr. Calkins,
00:51:54.960
and then we will go to three and a half, four minutes to Mrs. Zahoda.
00:52:03.160
um would the prime minister ever be briefed or the prime minister's immediate aids ever be briefed
00:52:10.120
on foreign interference without the presence of the national security and intelligence advisor
00:52:14.800
i can't speak to what protocols existed before i became the national security advisor they are not
00:52:23.540
briefed on foreign interference by ceases or an outside agency without my being present
00:52:31.200
or they haven't been to my knowledge unless i happen to be out of town but then there would
00:52:35.800
be an official there for me in the event during an election campaign that a political entity
00:52:44.100
lodged a complaint or provided intelligence during the election process that foreign interference was
00:52:51.720
happening in a particular riding would that information be shared with the prime minister
00:52:56.400
it would not where would that information go that information comes from the security cleared member
00:53:04.960
of each party that has been discussed in terms of how we they will
00:53:09.520
interact with the panel that information would go to the panel of five and the site team
00:53:17.040
thank you very much i just want to talk a little bit about
00:53:20.480
a comment that you made at the defense committee in december of 2022 where you said no money was
00:53:26.160
exchanged during the 2019 election and i believe your quote was the news stories that you've read
00:53:30.560
about interference are just that news stories and we have not seen any money going to 11 candidates
00:53:35.840
period can you confirm that those were your words before the defense committee i can't confirm that
00:53:39.760
that was my exact quote but the connection that was being made between 11 candidates and 250 000
00:53:46.720
dollars is inaccurate so in light of the stories that have come out this week including those from
00:53:52.560
robert fife and stephen chase about an illegal donation to the trudeau foundation in 2015 do
00:53:56.960
you still feel like your statements from that december are accurate i still feel that my
00:54:03.200
statements from that statement about that particular situation were accurate
00:54:08.320
would you confirm with me that because you've referred to the uh ensacop committee uh as a
00:54:19.120
mechanism that we can be assured that information is being shared can you confirm that a member of
00:54:23.600
ensacop is not allowed to share information with his or her colleagues or his or her leader
00:54:28.400
that is the premise of that committee and that would be your expectation that information would
00:54:33.440
be shared would be my expectation would an ensacop report ever be released to the public without
00:54:37.520
going through your office or the prime minister's office uh the the committee's uh unredacted
00:54:44.480
reports uh are shared with the prime minister and redacted reports are released to the public
00:54:50.560
thank you madam chair thank you mrs tahoda three minutes to you thank you madam chair um my question
00:55:01.840
is to miss thomas uh i understand that cesus has authorities to disrupt attempts of foreign
00:55:08.160
interference and uh while you probably can't get into operational matters can you explain the types
00:55:13.920
of tools that cesus has available to disrupt foreign interference and um if there's any
00:55:20.720
specifics i'd like to um specifically have you mention what those tools are i don't think those
00:55:26.480
are comments that i can make in an open forum okay um how about for example if thesis was aware that
00:55:34.720
a foreign official more specifically someone who works at a consulate trying to interfere
00:55:39.120
in a canadian election um would cesus have the mandate to respond could they for instance
00:55:46.320
endeavor to use a tool and just go and speak to that official at that consulate certainly they
00:55:53.920
can use threat reduction measures um which is what they're formally called to go speak to
00:55:58.480
an individual and and they can also um speak to uh the person being targeted
00:56:06.480
can you assure this committee that ceases endeavors to use the tools at least even if you
00:56:11.360
can't get into specifics of what those tools are that they at least endeavor to use those tools
00:56:16.160
if uh and when they feel that there is a need because of foreign intervention of foreign
00:56:21.680
interference uh yes i can assure this committee that ceases leans forward and uses the tools at
00:56:27.360
its disposal um to the fullest extent possible and mandated by law and their act um so the
00:56:36.720
instances we've been hearing about in the global news reports uh do you feel to your knowledge that
00:56:42.560
ceases did use the tools that they have at their disposal uh to intervene in these matters uh again
00:56:50.080
i'm not going to speak about specific cases and jeopardize the work that cesis does
00:56:56.240
the director of cesis has more leeway to answer that question about his specific work than i do
00:57:01.680
okay and i intend to explore those questions with them as well thank you
00:57:08.960
is that that it mrs hoda yes excellent wow um with that i would like to thank our guests for
00:57:17.920
joining us today thank you for your time and attention if there's additional information
00:57:22.560
as has been requested we look forward to you submitting it to the clerk and we'll share it
00:57:26.720
with all members of the committee with that i wish you a really good day and thank you for
00:57:31.920
the good work you do we will suspend briefly and have the next panel join us thank you