Juno News - August 23, 2021


Chrystia Freeland's ＂manipulated media＂ a sign of Liberal campaign desperation


Episode Stats

Length

34 minutes

Words per Minute

174.54588

Word Count

5,996

Sentence Count

325

Misogynist Sentences

6

Hate Speech Sentences

6


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.
00:00:06.660 This is the Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.
00:00:12.640 Coming up, the Liberal campaign is so desperate they have to start dispensing fake news,
00:00:17.480 plus why conscience rights for healthcare practitioners matter.
00:00:22.840 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.
00:00:26.380 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.
00:00:31.960 This is the Andrew Lawton Show here on True North, kicking up another week of Campaign 44.
00:00:38.280 It is Monday, August 23rd, 2021.
00:00:41.860 Hope you're all having a great day.
00:00:43.500 What day are we on now?
00:00:44.500 So it started on a Sunday, so I guess we are on day, is it day nine of the campaign already?
00:00:50.380 I know this is the first week's exciting, the last week's exciting,
00:00:54.040 and the middle part can sometimes drag a little bit,
00:00:56.800 but we'll try to find some other things to talk about
00:00:59.100 when there is less going on in Canadian politics than there is now.
00:01:03.700 But you know what?
00:01:04.620 The Liberal implosion, I think, is worth a fair bit of coverage.
00:01:08.140 The most recent example of this, you're going to be hearing a lot from,
00:01:11.560 I know True North is covering it, everyone's talking about it,
00:01:14.700 even the legacy media outlets are.
00:01:16.680 Chrystia Freeland, the Deputy Prime Minister, the Finance Minister,
00:01:20.600 one of the chief spokespeople of the Liberal Party of Canada,
00:01:25.300 has been flagged by Twitter with disseminating manipulated media.
00:01:31.120 So this is like right up there with Hunter Biden laptop, New York Post-style Twitter intervention,
00:01:36.540 which rarely tends to go against the left.
00:01:39.240 But Chrystia Freeland has now been accused by Twitter of sharing manipulated media
00:01:44.760 all over a tweet that the Liberals have been putting out that is very much deceptively edited
00:01:51.140 to show Aaron O'Toole saying something that he isn't really saying on healthcare.
00:01:57.240 I want to play first off what Chrystia Freeland shared.
00:02:01.220 This is the entirety of the Chrystia Freeland edit of this Aaron O'Toole clip,
00:02:05.900 which is from a Q&A that Aaron O'Toole did during the Conservative leadership race last year
00:02:11.080 with the Canada Strong and Free Network, formerly the Manning Centre.
00:02:15.800 Would you be prepared to allow provinces to experiment with real healthcare reform,
00:02:21.180 including the provision of private, for-profit, and non-profit healthcare options
00:02:26.040 inside of universal coverage?
00:02:27.680 Yes.
00:02:30.200 Now I'll elaborate a little bit more.
00:02:32.220 We can't have just one old model that is increasingly becoming inefficient,
00:02:38.460 and we have to find public-private synergies,
00:02:43.600 and that capital will come in to drive efficiencies.
00:02:47.680 I've run on this for several years now.
00:02:50.680 So right there, Aaron O'Toole asked unequivocally,
00:02:52.860 are you going to let provinces do for-profit healthcare, private healthcare?
00:02:57.660 And he says yes.
00:02:58.780 And he talks about the need to have private synergies, capital, all of this sort of stuff.
00:03:03.660 Well, this is a little bit of a longer clip, but I want you to hear it.
00:03:08.000 This is the entirety of Aaron O'Toole's response.
00:03:11.200 The question's fair.
00:03:12.140 She didn't edit the question.
00:03:13.260 From Kate Harrison, who you may see, she's on TV all the time
00:03:16.320 as a Conservative strategist and commentator.
00:03:18.660 But this is Aaron O'Toole's actual response, unedited.
00:03:24.460 Yes.
00:03:25.760 Now I'll elaborate a little bit more.
00:03:27.940 I refer to my previous leadership quite regularly.
00:03:31.260 Our team now calls that the warm-up, because we're going to win this one.
00:03:35.080 But I also ran on this principle, Kate,
00:03:37.560 because if we're expecting innovation and more choice and better performance,
00:03:43.320 we can't have just one old model that is increasingly becoming inefficient
00:03:50.040 because of the amazing new drugs that are dragging some of the funds
00:03:54.780 into other areas in our healthcare system, especially biologics,
00:03:58.260 which the Trudeau government also messed up in terms of the NAFTA negotiations.
00:04:03.280 If we want to see that innovation, we have to find public-private synergies
00:04:09.340 and make sure that universal access remains paramount.
00:04:13.960 And I actually praised what Brad Wall did with respect to diagnostic imaging
00:04:17.940 because he's actually making sure that wait times for everyone go down
00:04:23.360 as a result of the investment by the private sector
00:04:28.060 to make sure there are more diagnostic imaging machines.
00:04:31.220 I thought that was a brilliant move to show the public at large
00:04:34.120 there's going to be an overall benefit because everyone's wait times will go down,
00:04:37.800 but people will be able to access services
00:04:41.100 and that capital will come in to drive efficiencies, drive innovation.
00:04:46.920 In fact, there was a decision in Quebec, the Cherouli decision,
00:04:50.900 that says it's a right for Canadians.
00:04:53.120 Now, because it was a civil code, not everyone applies it across the country.
00:04:56.920 It is certainly.
00:04:58.080 If the same issue came to the Supreme Court,
00:05:00.300 there's no way they could say the state can prevent people,
00:05:04.080 as you said, the communist China example.
00:05:07.020 So let's try and do it in a way that's fair, measured,
00:05:10.540 and keep the public with us.
00:05:12.380 I've run on this for several years now,
00:05:15.660 and I do think in the 905 my region,
00:05:18.520 people are open to it, provided we don't let the liberals define us.
00:05:22.520 We have to have someone that can defend these principles and these ideas.
00:05:27.020 And I think in this race, I'm the only one who can.
00:05:29.320 Now, if it helps you understand just how much was cut out of that,
00:05:33.680 take a look at this transcript that someone on Twitter put together.
00:05:37.360 The highlighted bits are things that were in Chrystia Freeland's version of it.
00:05:41.740 The full transcript is what Aaron O'Toole actually said.
00:05:45.500 And he talks about this key line,
00:05:47.880 make sure that universal access remains paramount.
00:05:52.160 He's not trying to upend or uproot universal health care.
00:05:55.320 Quite the contrary, he's saying let's work within the universal system
00:05:59.020 to find new ways to do things, better ways to do things,
00:06:02.600 and things that allow for the injection of private capital.
00:06:06.140 This liberal terror about the idea of any private sector involvement
00:06:11.440 in the health care system is completely absurd.
00:06:14.520 Let's take a look at vaccines.
00:06:15.880 The liberals have been thumping their chests about their vaccine rollout.
00:06:18.560 What has been the vaccination effort but a major,
00:06:22.440 major partnership between governments and for-profit private companies?
00:06:27.200 Pfizer is not a charity.
00:06:29.080 Moderna is not a charity.
00:06:30.840 AstraZeneca is not a charity.
00:06:32.820 These institutions are doing these things to make money.
00:06:37.100 And it's because of private sector innovation
00:06:39.740 that the government has been able to do what it wants on vaccines.
00:06:43.740 So this tweet that Chrystia Freeland shares is very much deceptive.
00:06:51.060 It is, as Twitter says, manipulated media.
00:06:53.220 She's trying to accuse Aaron O'Toole of saying
00:06:55.480 he wants to auction off the health care system to the highest bidder.
00:06:58.560 And what O'Toole is actually saying is a very valid thing,
00:07:01.340 which is that, yeah, we have this health care system.
00:07:03.580 It's not working all that well.
00:07:05.520 Let's find ways to modernize it without threatening that core universality.
00:07:10.960 Now, I don't want to make this about health care policy.
00:07:13.740 But I am going to talk a little bit about why it is so disingenuous.
00:07:17.780 The liberals are doubling down on this.
00:07:19.800 One of the more charitable interpretations
00:07:21.680 might have been that Chrystia Freeland was just being a team player.
00:07:25.220 Some staffer put it out.
00:07:26.500 She didn't even know about it.
00:07:28.080 Well, this video from a rally at her office this weekend
00:07:31.440 shows how proud she is of this,
00:07:34.780 how much it fits in to the liberals' campaign strategy.
00:07:38.760 had we not won the 2019 election.
00:07:42.440 I wake up in a cold sweat thinking about that.
00:07:45.500 Do you think that conservatives would have provided the support
00:07:49.120 to individuals and to businesses that we did?
00:07:51.660 Do you think they would have bought the vaccines that we did?
00:07:54.700 No.
00:07:54.940 I don't think so.
00:07:56.540 And so it really, really matters.
00:07:59.200 And it matters for the future.
00:08:03.000 We put out, I think we put this out already.
00:08:06.120 If not, you guys are going to get the scoop on the rest of the country.
00:08:09.140 But we tweeted out some video of Aaron O'Toole
00:08:13.540 during the conservative leadership campaign
00:08:17.500 where he talks about privatizing Medicare.
00:08:21.260 Can you believe that?
00:08:23.060 So she's proud about it.
00:08:24.380 She's given everyone the drop telling them,
00:08:26.100 oh yeah, we got this clip where Aaron O'Toole,
00:08:28.000 can you believe it, defends private health care.
00:08:30.620 Oh my goodness.
00:08:32.500 And then Justin Trudeau was asked about it.
00:08:34.960 Now he was asked about this
00:08:36.300 after the liberals had been slapped
00:08:39.220 with that manipulated media tag on Twitter.
00:08:41.620 He was asked about this
00:08:42.600 after the conservatives filed
00:08:44.920 an official complaint with the Commissioner of Canada Elections,
00:08:48.700 a complaint that basically is calling on Canada's election regulator
00:08:53.020 to intervene because of the deceptive nature of this.
00:08:57.320 And this is what Justin Trudeau had to say.
00:08:59.860 Of the fact that Twitter says that a video
00:09:01.960 that was posted by Chrystia Freeland
00:09:03.880 has been manipulated
00:09:05.360 and now legal counsel for the Conservative Party
00:09:08.660 is asking for an immediate investigation into that video.
00:09:12.160 What's really important here
00:09:15.140 is that in the middle of a pandemic,
00:09:18.280 Aaron O'Toole came out unequivocally
00:09:20.720 in support of private health care
00:09:23.700 in terms of for-profit health care.
00:09:28.080 We posted the entire interview on it,
00:09:31.420 on, we posted the entire interview in its entirety
00:09:36.140 and I encourage all Canadians to take a look
00:09:39.300 to see what Aaron O'Toole has to say
00:09:41.460 about what he sees on the future of health care.
00:09:43.680 So he defends it.
00:09:44.520 He says, oh no, we put out the whole video.
00:09:46.540 Yeah, if you, you know, click 19 times,
00:09:48.660 you might find your way to where we put the whole video,
00:09:51.680 but that's not the point.
00:09:52.900 It's the thousands and thousands and thousands of people
00:09:55.860 that have interacted with the deceptively edited one
00:09:58.700 that's the problem.
00:09:59.860 You don't get a pass on dishonestly clipping someone
00:10:03.240 in a certain way
00:10:03.980 just because you somewhere else put the full version.
00:10:07.040 No, that's besides the point.
00:10:09.820 But here's the thing that's interesting.
00:10:11.700 I mentioned a moment ago,
00:10:12.740 the Conservatives have complained
00:10:14.100 with the Commissioner of Canada elections
00:10:17.000 and I think this is important.
00:10:18.400 Now, these things tend to take a fair bit of time
00:10:21.920 for anything to happen.
00:10:23.420 So I think it's a lot more
00:10:24.860 in the realm of posturing right now
00:10:27.520 than it is something that could have
00:10:29.540 a substantial effect on the election.
00:10:31.480 But nonetheless, the Conservatives are availing themselves
00:10:34.240 of one complaint mechanism they have in this election.
00:10:38.200 But the reality is we're talking about liberal panic right now.
00:10:42.480 Last week, they decided to have abortion day
00:10:45.000 because they were losing in that regard.
00:10:47.240 And I'm going to be talking a little bit more
00:10:48.700 about the conscience rights question
00:10:50.280 in a few moments on the show.
00:10:52.200 But my goodness, what the Liberals are doing here
00:10:54.780 is throwing out every single stop they have imaginable.
00:10:57.960 They're reaching right down
00:10:58.840 into the bottom of that bag of cliches
00:11:01.000 they carry from election to election.
00:11:03.180 And it's, he's just like Stephen Harper.
00:11:05.820 Okay, yeah, they're going to ban abortion.
00:11:08.860 The privatizing healthcare.
00:11:11.420 And people aren't really buying it.
00:11:13.960 Certainly not in my circles.
00:11:15.720 And I try to keep an eye out for people
00:11:17.900 and communities and groups
00:11:19.100 that are not just those who think of the world
00:11:21.680 the way I do and see the world the way I do.
00:11:24.300 Part of it seems to be, to the media's credit,
00:11:26.380 the media seems to be not completely buying in
00:11:29.680 to the whole scheme this time around.
00:11:31.980 I don't know if it's that the Liberals
00:11:33.720 are just going to be dropping these things every day
00:11:36.160 until the election's over,
00:11:37.640 or if they are just completely using up
00:11:40.240 every attack they have in the first week
00:11:42.520 because they have nothing else going for them.
00:11:44.700 But the reality is that this is not a party
00:11:47.560 that has a solid, clear, cohesive, or coherent message.
00:11:52.680 Not in the least.
00:11:54.500 This is a party that is just throwing anything
00:11:57.980 and everything, but not even in one direction.
00:12:01.160 They're just trying to take aim at Conservatives
00:12:03.460 in a manner that's not particularly believable
00:12:06.860 with Erin O'Toole.
00:12:09.580 And I've had my fair share of criticisms
00:12:11.960 for how the Conservatives have run things,
00:12:14.280 how Erin O'Toole has approached certain topics.
00:12:16.480 This is an analysis, not an endorsement.
00:12:19.000 But one thing that's important to note here
00:12:20.620 is that I don't think most Canadians
00:12:21.960 are looking at Erin O'Toole
00:12:23.200 and seeing anyone who is particularly radical.
00:12:26.520 So all of these attacks that are based on this idea
00:12:29.160 of the conservative boogeyman,
00:12:31.340 I don't think are really flying
00:12:33.260 with a guy who comes across and positions himself
00:12:36.420 and, by and large, is a political moderate.
00:12:40.180 Now, here's an interesting thing.
00:12:41.680 And I should, by the way, say
00:12:43.260 that I do not have access
00:12:44.940 to Justin Trudeau's campaign events.
00:12:46.800 I haven't tried because I haven't been
00:12:48.200 in the same city as him when he's had one.
00:12:50.120 But the standing order from 2019
00:12:52.380 is that they do not recognize me
00:12:55.180 as a journalist, so I can't go.
00:12:57.260 If I were a journalist covering
00:12:59.300 Justin Trudeau's campaign,
00:13:01.540 here's a question that I would like
00:13:04.280 to see asked of him.
00:13:05.380 And bear with me if it gets a little bit
00:13:07.000 politically wonky here.
00:13:08.780 But in 2015, you may remember,
00:13:11.600 Stephen Harper was dogged by
00:13:13.180 all of these hypothetical scenarios.
00:13:15.100 He had a majority government
00:13:16.300 going into the election.
00:13:17.300 And he was asked if you fall short
00:13:20.980 by just a few votes.
00:13:22.140 So basically, that's if you lose
00:13:24.160 to a minority government,
00:13:26.020 will you step down?
00:13:27.540 Or will you try to cobble together
00:13:29.500 a coalition to cling to power?
00:13:31.440 And Stephen Harper was very transparent about this.
00:13:33.760 He said, my belief is that
00:13:35.600 if I don't get the most seats,
00:13:37.280 I've lost the election.
00:13:38.400 And you had all of these,
00:13:39.300 you know, constitutional professors
00:13:41.340 that were saying,
00:13:41.900 oh, but that's not actually the law.
00:13:43.520 No, it doesn't need to be.
00:13:44.520 But it's Stephen Harper's view
00:13:45.700 that voters elect a government
00:13:47.860 and whoever they elect
00:13:49.580 should have the opportunity to govern.
00:13:52.460 But I would like to see
00:13:53.760 Justin Trudeau ask this question.
00:13:55.660 Let's say that there's
00:13:56.520 a conservative minority elected
00:13:58.560 on September 20th.
00:14:01.200 Are you, Justin Trudeau,
00:14:02.720 going to try to cling to power
00:14:04.580 by getting the opposition parties
00:14:06.420 to prop you up?
00:14:07.820 Or are you going to accept
00:14:09.040 that the conservatives won the election?
00:14:12.120 And this is a very important question.
00:14:13.860 And you could ask it to Justin Trudeau
00:14:15.760 point blank very easily.
00:14:17.880 And I put it on Twitter.
00:14:19.140 If you don't secure the most seats,
00:14:21.180 can you guarantee
00:14:22.100 you won't try to remain prime minister?
00:14:25.880 And his answer would be
00:14:27.220 very illuminating on that
00:14:28.560 because I don't think this is a guy
00:14:29.860 that wants to just accept defeat
00:14:31.500 if that's what the voters
00:14:33.140 have in store for him.
00:14:34.440 I think he's going to keep
00:14:35.320 trying to cobble together
00:14:36.380 coalition after coalition
00:14:37.980 after coalition.
00:14:39.080 And all of this panic
00:14:40.580 about conservatives
00:14:41.580 and coalition governments,
00:14:42.980 I don't think is translating
00:14:45.040 to very legitimate questions
00:14:46.640 that need to be asked
00:14:47.660 of Justin Trudeau.
00:14:50.140 And just look, for example,
00:14:52.180 at one of the obvious realities
00:14:54.120 in politics is that
00:14:55.240 in the House of Commons,
00:14:56.820 you have five parties represented.
00:14:59.220 Four of them are left-wing parties.
00:15:01.820 Yes, we have the PPC.
00:15:03.360 We have Derek Sloan
00:15:04.240 running as an independent.
00:15:05.580 We've got the Maverick Party
00:15:06.560 and all of that.
00:15:07.140 But in the House of Commons,
00:15:09.020 before Parliament was dissolved,
00:15:10.420 you had the Conservatives
00:15:11.420 on the right
00:15:12.020 and then you had the Liberals,
00:15:13.560 the NDP,
00:15:14.200 the Bloc Québécois
00:15:15.000 and the Green Party
00:15:16.440 on the left.
00:15:17.640 And not a single
00:15:18.780 fellow right-of-center party
00:15:21.340 that could prop up
00:15:22.800 the Conservatives.
00:15:23.480 Now, the Bloc Québécois
00:15:24.680 is a little bit
00:15:25.820 of a game changer
00:15:26.780 because if the Conservatives
00:15:28.000 continue doing
00:15:28.700 what they're doing now,
00:15:29.560 which is trying to
00:15:30.840 put more money into Quebec
00:15:32.040 and start talking
00:15:33.120 about the Quebec nation
00:15:34.320 and Aaron O'Toole
00:15:35.500 has promised
00:15:36.160 that he would allow Quebec
00:15:37.260 to expand its control
00:15:39.020 of language
00:15:39.720 in federally regulated sectors,
00:15:42.360 a move that has angered
00:15:43.740 a lot of Quebec Anglos,
00:15:45.380 by the way.
00:15:46.020 Not that there are
00:15:46.580 too many of them left.
00:15:47.980 But Conservatives
00:15:49.540 could theoretically
00:15:50.160 try to get some support
00:15:51.240 from the Bloc.
00:15:51.900 However,
00:15:52.800 we remember in 2008
00:15:54.380 how frustrated
00:15:55.800 the Conservatives were,
00:15:56.880 rightfully so,
00:15:58.060 at the idea
00:15:58.920 of a coalition government,
00:16:00.400 informal or otherwise,
00:16:02.080 that involved
00:16:02.800 the Bloc Québécois,
00:16:03.860 a party that seeks
00:16:04.660 to take down Canada
00:16:06.740 and break up Confederation.
00:16:08.600 So all of this is,
00:16:10.180 I think,
00:16:10.440 to say we don't know
00:16:11.420 what's going to happen,
00:16:12.200 but we do need
00:16:13.160 to start asking
00:16:13.780 the questions of
00:16:14.580 is Justin Trudeau
00:16:15.940 going to step down
00:16:17.440 if he does not win,
00:16:20.100 but if there is,
00:16:21.180 in his mind,
00:16:21.920 a path to victory
00:16:22.880 in the House of Commons
00:16:23.960 as opposed to
00:16:25.100 a path to victory
00:16:26.000 in what the voters
00:16:27.000 in Canada are deciding.
00:16:28.920 And that's a question
00:16:29.680 that he needs to answer,
00:16:31.020 but more importantly,
00:16:31.700 it's a question
00:16:32.200 the media needs to ask
00:16:33.320 that so far has not been.
00:16:35.340 We've got to take
00:16:36.120 a quick break.
00:16:36.860 When we come back,
00:16:37.560 more of The Andrew Lawton Show
00:16:38.900 here on True North.
00:16:39.940 Stay tuned.
00:16:42.700 You're tuned in
00:16:43.840 to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:16:47.920 Welcome back
00:16:48.680 to The Andrew Lawton Show,
00:16:50.060 Canada's most irreverent
00:16:51.540 talk show here
00:16:52.180 on True North.
00:16:53.320 I want to talk about
00:16:54.280 conscience rights,
00:16:55.180 which is one of the
00:16:56.080 most important aspects
00:16:57.640 of the healthcare system,
00:16:59.220 but also,
00:17:00.020 as we're seeing
00:17:00.800 in the last few days,
00:17:01.900 one of the most misunderstood.
00:17:05.520 Justin Trudeau says
00:17:06.740 that if you have
00:17:07.880 conscience rights,
00:17:08.780 it doesn't mean
00:17:09.320 a doctor gets to
00:17:10.400 uphold their conscience.
00:17:12.080 Rather,
00:17:12.520 it means individual
00:17:13.840 patients can,
00:17:14.800 specifically women.
00:17:16.600 The reality is
00:17:17.540 conscience rights
00:17:18.340 are not just about
00:17:19.780 imposing a religious
00:17:21.080 worldview on patients,
00:17:22.380 which is how the liberals
00:17:23.280 have tried to paint it,
00:17:24.760 but something that has
00:17:25.640 a very significant
00:17:26.980 implication
00:17:28.160 if you try to regulate it
00:17:29.620 or take those rights away
00:17:30.780 on the healthcare field.
00:17:32.780 I want to talk about this
00:17:33.800 in just a couple of moments
00:17:34.960 with Dr. Sean Watley,
00:17:36.380 but I first want to talk
00:17:37.400 about the political
00:17:38.600 implications of this
00:17:39.760 because shortly after
00:17:41.380 I published my previous show,
00:17:43.720 which came out on Friday
00:17:44.800 of last week,
00:17:46.020 Aaron O'Toole
00:17:46.640 walked back
00:17:47.720 his defense of
00:17:49.560 conscience rights
00:17:50.320 that is enshrined
00:17:51.680 in the conservative platform.
00:17:53.180 So the platform
00:17:53.720 is very clear
00:17:54.620 that there are going to be
00:17:56.080 conscience rights
00:17:56.760 for healthcare practitioners,
00:17:57.860 and this is a pledge
00:17:58.760 that he made
00:17:59.400 in the leadership race
00:18:00.740 going back a year ago.
00:18:02.360 Well, once the liberals
00:18:03.500 started to throw
00:18:04.320 all of these evil,
00:18:05.260 scary,
00:18:05.640 social conservative agenda
00:18:07.040 attacks on him,
00:18:08.780 he walked it back.
00:18:09.900 I think we can find
00:18:10.760 a reasonable balance
00:18:11.820 for those conscience protections
00:18:13.920 while ensuring
00:18:15.000 referring of those Canadians
00:18:17.020 to the services
00:18:17.880 is provided.
00:18:19.340 I think Canadians want
00:18:20.480 a reasonable approach here.
00:18:22.320 That is what we will offer,
00:18:23.740 but let me reiterate,
00:18:25.360 I'm here to defend
00:18:26.220 the rights of all Canadians,
00:18:27.980 and that will be
00:18:29.040 my approach
00:18:29.640 as prime minister.
00:18:30.560 Will they have to refer?
00:18:34.140 Will they have to refer?
00:18:36.520 Yes, they will have to refer
00:18:43.720 because the rights
00:18:44.960 to access those services
00:18:46.180 exist across the country.
00:18:47.800 Now, this obviously
00:18:48.780 went over like a lead balloon
00:18:50.560 among those whose support
00:18:52.580 was instrumental
00:18:53.400 in giving Aaron O'Toole
00:18:55.100 the victory.
00:18:56.100 A lot of the social conservative
00:18:57.440 and pro-life members
00:18:58.700 of the Conservative Party
00:19:00.080 or of the conservative movement
00:19:01.920 in Canada,
00:19:02.940 chief among them right now,
00:19:04.360 a pro-life action group
00:19:05.800 that was very frustrated
00:19:07.840 by what happened.
00:19:08.660 They put out a press release
00:19:09.780 on Friday calling on Aaron O'Toole
00:19:12.040 to clarify his position
00:19:14.460 because it would,
00:19:16.220 as you heard in that clip,
00:19:17.480 require healthcare practitioners
00:19:18.860 to refer.
00:19:20.820 And Alyssa Golob,
00:19:22.240 who's been on this show
00:19:23.020 in the past,
00:19:23.620 says Aaron O'Toole
00:19:24.300 has flip-flopped
00:19:25.340 on a key promise
00:19:26.300 he made to pro-lifers
00:19:27.320 during the conservative
00:19:28.240 leadership race.
00:19:29.480 The Conservative Party
00:19:30.320 is united.
00:19:31.360 They passed a motion
00:19:32.120 at a policy convention
00:19:33.280 specifically stating
00:19:34.620 the medical professionals
00:19:35.960 would not have to provide
00:19:37.240 effective referrals
00:19:38.160 when it comes to
00:19:39.080 assisted suicide
00:19:39.880 and other procedures
00:19:41.320 such as abortion.
00:19:42.700 People were excited
00:19:43.580 when it was in the platform,
00:19:44.920 and now the conscience rights
00:19:46.560 policy is essentially
00:19:47.880 null and void
00:19:49.140 if they must effectively
00:19:50.780 refer for medically
00:19:52.320 unnecessary procedures
00:19:53.700 such as physician-assisted suicide.
00:19:56.420 Now, switch to a Scott Hayward
00:19:58.080 quote there,
00:19:58.700 but same sentiment.
00:19:59.940 Now, this is where
00:20:01.060 it gets tricky
00:20:01.740 because a lot of people
00:20:02.720 would listen and say,
00:20:03.740 well, you're not providing
00:20:05.580 the procedure.
00:20:06.560 Why does it matter
00:20:07.400 if you're referring?
00:20:08.360 Isn't that just something
00:20:09.240 as simple as letting people know,
00:20:11.240 okay, I don't do this,
00:20:12.360 but they do it over here?
00:20:13.920 Well, in medicine,
00:20:15.120 referral means something
00:20:16.640 very specific,
00:20:17.620 and I saw this addressed
00:20:19.100 by Dr. Sean Watley
00:20:20.860 on Twitter,
00:20:22.000 and I wanted to bring him
00:20:22.820 on the show
00:20:23.240 because I want people
00:20:24.120 to realize why this
00:20:25.260 so-called duty to refer,
00:20:26.900 this requirement
00:20:27.900 of providing a referral,
00:20:30.160 is in fact a violation
00:20:31.900 of the conscience rights
00:20:33.460 that need to be upheld
00:20:34.860 by doctors and for doctors
00:20:37.220 and other healthcare practitioners.
00:20:39.280 Sean Watley
00:20:39.860 is the health policy fellow
00:20:41.660 at the MacDonald-Laurier Institute
00:20:43.220 and the author
00:20:44.220 of the fantastic book
00:20:45.260 When Politics Comes Before Patients.
00:20:48.280 Sean, good to talk to you
00:20:49.160 as always.
00:20:49.580 Thanks for coming on today.
00:20:51.020 Thank you, Andrew.
00:20:52.280 So the last few days
00:20:53.680 of the campaign,
00:20:54.960 the conscience rights question
00:20:56.780 has come up.
00:20:57.820 The conservative platform
00:20:59.560 initially said
00:21:00.460 it was going to protect
00:21:01.620 conscience rights
00:21:02.620 for healthcare practitioners,
00:21:04.420 cue liberal backlash.
00:21:05.800 You fast forward
00:21:06.440 a couple of days
00:21:07.300 and Aaron O'Toole
00:21:08.620 has walked it back
00:21:09.740 slightly saying
00:21:10.860 yes, we won't make anyone
00:21:12.640 do anything
00:21:13.460 except for refer.
00:21:15.360 Now this would
00:21:16.040 to a lot of people
00:21:17.020 seem like a completely
00:21:18.400 reasonable compromise
00:21:20.000 but I saw some
00:21:21.040 of your tweets on this
00:21:21.900 and I've heard
00:21:22.600 healthcare practitioners
00:21:23.860 bring this up before
00:21:25.060 and the idea
00:21:26.060 of merely referring
00:21:27.440 something like an abortion
00:21:28.980 or an assisted death
00:21:30.320 is not as benign
00:21:31.840 as it's made out to be.
00:21:33.300 Explain this.
00:21:34.480 So I'm glad you brought this
00:21:36.360 to the focus of referral.
00:21:38.000 I think a lot of patients
00:21:39.460 assume that referral
00:21:41.300 is just kind of like
00:21:42.320 telling people information
00:21:43.840 and actually when you look
00:21:45.880 at what patients want
00:21:47.140 and I've seen polling data
00:21:48.460 on this,
00:21:48.940 hopefully it'll come out
00:21:49.740 over the next little while,
00:21:51.040 that patients are actually
00:21:52.680 very supportive
00:21:53.480 of their doctors
00:21:54.200 talking to them
00:21:55.020 about things
00:21:55.680 and I think all doctors
00:21:56.880 want to do this.
00:21:57.900 Let's talk about
00:21:58.440 all the options.
00:21:59.480 Here's the pros and cons
00:22:00.500 of this direction,
00:22:01.260 that direction.
00:22:01.880 How does it fit with you?
00:22:03.380 But when you actually
00:22:04.100 start talking about
00:22:05.120 making a referral,
00:22:06.920 so a medical referral
00:22:07.860 is when I refer you
00:22:09.480 for a procedure
00:22:10.960 that I think
00:22:11.600 is going to be good
00:22:12.820 or help you,
00:22:13.640 you need your gallbladder out.
00:22:15.080 Okay, so I think
00:22:16.100 you need your gallbladder out.
00:22:17.460 That's my professional opinion.
00:22:18.560 I'm going to refer you
00:22:19.540 to a specialist
00:22:20.400 whom I trust
00:22:21.480 to do a good job,
00:22:22.660 so someone that I respect.
00:22:24.260 An effective referral
00:22:25.200 flips the whole concept
00:22:26.420 on its head.
00:22:27.640 I am now referring you,
00:22:30.080 sending you,
00:22:30.960 for something
00:22:31.500 that I don't think
00:22:32.240 is actually going to help you.
00:22:33.420 I actually think
00:22:34.020 you need antidepressants
00:22:35.080 for six months
00:22:35.740 or I think you need
00:22:36.360 better palliative care
00:22:37.400 or pain relief
00:22:38.120 or something else.
00:22:40.040 So I don't actually think
00:22:41.380 ending your life
00:22:42.120 is a good thing for you.
00:22:43.460 So now I'm sending you
00:22:44.740 for something
00:22:45.440 that I don't think
00:22:46.500 is good
00:22:46.960 to someone
00:22:47.860 that I'm not sure
00:22:49.120 I agree with
00:22:49.920 their approach
00:22:50.420 to medicine
00:22:51.060 and nor do I hold them
00:22:53.160 in high respect.
00:22:54.840 So now I'm in
00:22:56.000 intimate connection
00:22:58.240 with this therapeutic
00:22:59.420 chain of events
00:23:00.520 that leads
00:23:01.300 towards something
00:23:02.180 that I fundamentally
00:23:03.140 don't agree with.
00:23:05.020 And to be clear,
00:23:05.740 this isn't about
00:23:06.740 freedom of religion.
00:23:08.620 It's about freedom
00:23:09.420 of conscience.
00:23:10.420 And so the debate
00:23:11.960 has been framed
00:23:13.040 in such a way
00:23:13.840 that it's very hard
00:23:14.860 to win that debate, right?
00:23:16.040 A tiny group of people
00:23:17.180 who want to practice
00:23:17.940 their religion
00:23:18.500 versus all these patients
00:23:19.900 who just want medical care.
00:23:22.340 Well, everybody's going to say,
00:23:23.780 well, yeah,
00:23:24.160 I don't share
00:23:24.780 your religious beliefs.
00:23:26.380 Why should you impose
00:23:27.300 them on me?
00:23:28.280 That has framed
00:23:29.620 the debate incorrectly.
00:23:31.640 And I can unpack that
00:23:33.020 for you if you want,
00:23:33.820 but I'm not sure
00:23:34.220 if that's where you want
00:23:34.780 to go in this interview.
00:23:36.180 Actually, I would like to,
00:23:37.460 but just if I can interject
00:23:38.960 for a moment here,
00:23:39.840 I know when my old family
00:23:41.520 doctor retired,
00:23:42.480 for example,
00:23:43.000 it was his daughter
00:23:43.880 that took over the practice.
00:23:45.500 So you have generation removed
00:23:47.340 between the one doctor
00:23:48.460 and the other.
00:23:49.180 And even in that,
00:23:50.040 there were some slight changes.
00:23:51.360 Now it's not like
00:23:52.080 all of a sudden,
00:23:52.800 you know,
00:23:53.080 we fundamentally inverted,
00:23:55.360 you know,
00:23:55.640 what medicine looks like
00:23:56.740 in this clinic,
00:23:57.380 but each of them
00:23:58.260 has their own approach
00:23:59.500 to certain things.
00:24:00.440 And I know that
00:24:01.320 from doctor to doctor,
00:24:02.640 that's probably pretty common.
00:24:04.980 So the idea of in general
00:24:06.320 trying to take away
00:24:07.220 a doctor's right
00:24:08.280 to do what's best
00:24:09.960 for their patient
00:24:10.720 in their eyes,
00:24:11.720 which is why they got
00:24:12.540 into medicine,
00:24:13.200 seems like a very
00:24:14.020 dangerous precedent.
00:24:16.000 Yeah, so really,
00:24:16.740 you're going where
00:24:17.300 I wanted to go exactly.
00:24:18.760 So you're talking about
00:24:20.200 what function does
00:24:22.140 freedom of conscience,
00:24:23.020 we don't usually use
00:24:23.920 those words,
00:24:25.060 but that's what
00:24:25.480 you're getting at.
00:24:26.160 So the basis of a profession,
00:24:28.180 certainly in medicine,
00:24:29.460 but also in education,
00:24:31.520 in law enforcement,
00:24:33.320 all over the place,
00:24:34.740 you need people
00:24:35.660 to be able to make
00:24:36.860 free and informed decisions
00:24:38.620 on their own
00:24:39.700 in a professional role
00:24:40.900 when they don't have
00:24:42.760 solid evidence either way.
00:24:44.720 So many of the things
00:24:45.920 that we suggest in medicine
00:24:47.160 don't have evidence-based
00:24:49.940 support for them yet.
00:24:51.160 So for example,
00:24:52.280 your child falls off
00:24:53.400 a tricycle,
00:24:54.260 hits her head on the ground,
00:24:55.340 and I see you in the eMERGE.
00:24:57.360 And you say,
00:24:58.220 you know,
00:24:58.520 my wife sent me in.
00:24:59.700 That's what usually happens
00:25:00.640 right when the dad's
00:25:01.400 in the eMERGE.
00:25:01.820 My wife sent me in
00:25:02.660 and she said,
00:25:03.380 get a CAT scan
00:25:04.080 of my daughter's head
00:25:05.180 or whatever.
00:25:05.760 And so we're there
00:25:06.480 discussing and I'm saying,
00:25:07.600 you know what,
00:25:08.040 there's no literature
00:25:08.960 to support CAT scans
00:25:10.400 for every little child
00:25:11.520 who bumps her head.
00:25:12.980 And I think we should
00:25:14.420 take a different approach.
00:25:15.500 Furthermore,
00:25:15.860 these are the risks
00:25:16.920 of having, you know,
00:25:17.740 doses of radiation
00:25:18.460 on your brain, etc.
00:25:19.800 And you say,
00:25:20.500 no, no, no,
00:25:20.880 I really want this.
00:25:21.760 And so it becomes
00:25:22.420 a debate of,
00:25:23.840 and you may even have
00:25:24.520 evidence on your side.
00:25:25.320 You might say,
00:25:25.820 well, actually,
00:25:26.460 you know,
00:25:26.760 modern CT scans
00:25:27.780 are very low-dose radiation
00:25:29.020 and you might compare them
00:25:30.320 to flying in an airplane.
00:25:31.500 And so we have
00:25:32.000 an actual data-based discussion.
00:25:36.060 But at the end of it,
00:25:36.960 I need to be able
00:25:37.880 to have the freedom
00:25:38.600 to say,
00:25:39.160 you know,
00:25:39.380 based on my experience
00:25:40.420 and based on my concern
00:25:41.840 for your health,
00:25:42.660 not only today,
00:25:43.860 but 60, 70,
00:25:45.360 80 years from now,
00:25:46.620 I don't think
00:25:47.720 this is the best direction
00:25:48.900 to go.
00:25:49.720 So that's sort of
00:25:50.540 how freedom of conscience
00:25:52.040 fits into the basis
00:25:54.000 of professions.
00:25:55.760 And that's where
00:25:56.480 the debate needs to happen
00:25:58.040 because we're talking
00:25:59.120 about painkillers
00:26:00.520 and parking stickers
00:26:01.740 and CT scans
00:26:03.060 for kids' heads
00:26:03.900 and you just go
00:26:04.560 all day long
00:26:06.000 in the clinic.
00:26:07.100 I'm asked
00:26:07.740 to make decisions.
00:26:09.580 So physicians,
00:26:10.760 family docs
00:26:11.560 in Canada
00:26:12.320 are gatekeepers
00:26:13.080 for the healthcare system.
00:26:14.560 So to be
00:26:15.240 a gatekeeper,
00:26:16.480 yes,
00:26:16.780 you are informed
00:26:17.660 by evidence,
00:26:18.460 but often you're informed
00:26:19.680 by experience
00:26:20.400 and you say,
00:26:21.040 you know what,
00:26:21.380 I think the likelihood
00:26:22.200 of you needing
00:26:23.520 another MRI
00:26:24.960 for your anterior knee pain
00:26:26.640 is zero.
00:26:27.900 It's not going
00:26:28.280 to tell us anything.
00:26:29.600 And the patient
00:26:30.280 will say,
00:26:30.600 well, prove it.
00:26:31.240 Well, I can't prove it.
00:26:32.820 And so now
00:26:33.280 I'm making a decision
00:26:34.260 for you based
00:26:35.080 on the absence
00:26:35.820 of evidence,
00:26:36.320 but I'm basing it
00:26:37.660 on professional experience.
00:26:39.060 And this is core
00:26:40.040 to freedom of conscience.
00:26:41.140 So that's where
00:26:41.660 the debate needs
00:26:42.420 to happen,
00:26:43.160 at least on
00:26:44.400 the professional side.
00:26:46.260 And I think
00:26:47.000 those are all
00:26:47.580 completely valid examples,
00:26:49.080 but there are also
00:26:50.260 moral aspects to this
00:26:51.760 and there are also
00:26:52.600 religious aspects to this.
00:26:54.140 You have some doctors
00:26:55.020 that may have an aversion
00:26:56.120 to birth control
00:26:57.220 or abortion
00:26:58.180 or in a more,
00:26:59.760 I think,
00:26:59.980 modern example,
00:27:00.780 we know that this
00:27:01.640 liberal bill
00:27:02.440 on assisted suicide
00:27:04.100 could extend
00:27:05.300 to people
00:27:06.080 with mental illnesses
00:27:06.880 and I know
00:27:07.520 there are going to be
00:27:07.940 a lot of doctors
00:27:08.620 that have issues
00:27:09.500 with that.
00:27:10.340 How do you navigate
00:27:11.320 that aspect of it?
00:27:12.520 Because, you know,
00:27:13.280 this is again
00:27:13.740 an example that may
00:27:14.920 or may not have happened,
00:27:15.740 but if you were
00:27:16.540 to have a Jehovah's Witness
00:27:17.780 doctor who doesn't
00:27:19.140 like blood transfusions,
00:27:20.480 I mean,
00:27:20.720 where is that squaring
00:27:22.400 with the professional
00:27:23.860 side of things
00:27:24.580 that you've just laid out?
00:27:26.340 Yeah, so I'm glad
00:27:27.340 you threw up
00:27:27.920 at the opening
00:27:28.500 in the introducing
00:27:29.440 this segment.
00:27:30.300 You said,
00:27:30.700 oh, here we go.
00:27:31.340 We already have abortion
00:27:32.160 into the election campaign.
00:27:33.940 So I'll use that
00:27:35.320 as an example first.
00:27:36.620 You know,
00:27:36.760 we always hear this.
00:27:37.800 We say,
00:27:38.000 oh, I know,
00:27:38.540 people are going
00:27:38.960 to be blocked
00:27:39.440 from getting abortion
00:27:40.280 if we allow docs
00:27:41.480 to act based
00:27:42.440 on their freedom
00:27:43.440 of religion
00:27:44.040 or freedom of conscience
00:27:45.200 in this particular case.
00:27:47.920 That is a red herring.
00:27:50.080 That is just so wrong.
00:27:51.760 We have had decades
00:27:52.920 of direct access
00:27:54.840 to abortion in Ontario.
00:27:57.060 So when you describe
00:27:58.820 the access,
00:28:00.140 you know,
00:28:00.320 the access is outstanding.
00:28:02.100 It is fantastic.
00:28:03.440 You can access abortion
00:28:05.020 more easily
00:28:05.800 than any,
00:28:06.740 almost any other
00:28:07.460 medical procedure
00:28:08.360 in Ontario right now
00:28:09.700 because you don't have
00:28:10.440 to go through
00:28:10.880 any gatekeeping.
00:28:11.900 If you need one,
00:28:13.100 you want one,
00:28:13.920 you just go get one.
00:28:15.200 directly.
00:28:15.940 So to say that,
00:28:17.280 oh no,
00:28:17.700 now Andrew,
00:28:18.420 your freedom of religion,
00:28:20.340 conscience,
00:28:21.040 thought,
00:28:21.460 whatever,
00:28:21.800 is going to prevent me
00:28:22.840 from accessing abortion
00:28:23.920 is simply not true
00:28:26.280 in reality.
00:28:27.600 So now when we expand this
00:28:28.860 to medical aid
00:28:29.940 in dying,
00:28:30.720 voluntary assisted suicide
00:28:31.940 or any other procedure
00:28:34.180 that society has decided
00:28:35.760 that we are going to provide
00:28:37.140 within our medical system
00:28:38.320 to set this up
00:28:39.500 as a straw man
00:28:40.160 to say,
00:28:40.640 oh look,
00:28:41.160 now you're going
00:28:41.580 to block me from it.
00:28:42.480 If the state
00:28:43.280 has made a promise
00:28:45.180 to provide
00:28:46.180 a particular procedure,
00:28:47.660 then the state
00:28:49.080 needs to make sure
00:28:50.280 it can provide
00:28:51.860 that access
00:28:52.600 without forcing docs
00:28:53.840 to be involved with it.
00:28:55.240 We have over 25,000
00:28:56.460 practicing physicians
00:28:57.360 at,
00:28:57.700 well,
00:28:58.040 24 to 25,000
00:28:59.460 practicing physicians
00:29:00.680 in Ontario.
00:29:01.860 The Ministry of Health,
00:29:02.900 I was just talking
00:29:03.480 with a civil servant
00:29:04.440 just recently,
00:29:05.200 they said they have
00:29:05.840 less than 700 docs
00:29:07.700 right now
00:29:08.220 in Ontario
00:29:08.780 who have been involved
00:29:10.160 with medical aid
00:29:10.840 in dying
00:29:11.260 and many of them
00:29:12.520 once they do it once
00:29:13.500 they say,
00:29:14.040 you know what,
00:29:14.520 this is just,
00:29:15.480 this is too heavy.
00:29:16.360 I can't,
00:29:17.100 the emotional burden
00:29:18.280 of me doing this,
00:29:19.400 I don't want to make
00:29:20.020 this part of my practice.
00:29:21.320 These are people
00:29:22.060 who support it
00:29:23.040 and are actually
00:29:23.680 being involved with it.
00:29:24.900 So we're going to have
00:29:25.980 a major problem
00:29:27.020 of having
00:29:27.740 even enough physicians
00:29:29.560 available and ready
00:29:30.960 and willing
00:29:31.440 to do the procedure.
00:29:32.940 And so to start talking
00:29:33.860 about,
00:29:34.320 you know,
00:29:34.980 compromising freedom
00:29:35.860 of conscience
00:29:36.380 or a physician's ability
00:29:37.780 to say,
00:29:38.160 no,
00:29:38.460 I don't feel
00:29:39.040 comfortable with this
00:29:40.100 is a major issue
00:29:42.120 and I think we need
00:29:43.160 to have this
00:29:44.560 baked into legislation.
00:29:45.880 We need to be able
00:29:46.560 to protect docs
00:29:47.540 and I would say
00:29:48.380 the vast majority
00:29:49.300 of physicians
00:29:50.040 and voters
00:29:51.640 would agree
00:29:52.860 in that direction.
00:29:54.660 To go back
00:29:55.620 to this idea
00:29:56.580 of the referral,
00:29:57.800 if someone were
00:29:58.400 to go to their family
00:29:59.140 doctor who has
00:30:00.000 a conscience-based
00:30:01.120 objection to something
00:30:02.380 and the patient says,
00:30:03.940 I want this thing,
00:30:05.540 if the doctor
00:30:06.260 were to say,
00:30:07.040 I don't do that,
00:30:08.540 I have an objection
00:30:09.320 to it,
00:30:09.820 but call this person.
00:30:11.020 That's not a referral,
00:30:12.100 correct?
00:30:12.900 That is not a referral.
00:30:14.580 You could also talk
00:30:15.380 about total transfers
00:30:17.080 of care,
00:30:18.340 but actually
00:30:19.300 that concept
00:30:20.560 of total transfers
00:30:21.500 of care
00:30:22.000 is used by the court
00:30:23.660 to say,
00:30:24.600 oh,
00:30:24.840 you just are trying
00:30:25.600 to abandon
00:30:26.140 your patients now.
00:30:27.260 So actually the people
00:30:28.120 who are against
00:30:29.200 being forced to refer
00:30:31.040 are very,
00:30:31.840 very clear
00:30:32.360 about saying,
00:30:33.520 we're not talking
00:30:34.100 about transferring
00:30:34.720 all care.
00:30:35.580 We don't want
00:30:35.960 to abandon
00:30:36.360 our patients.
00:30:36.900 We want to stay
00:30:37.540 with our patients
00:30:38.460 as long as they
00:30:39.980 want to be with us.
00:30:41.540 But telling them
00:30:42.420 there's a number
00:30:43.360 to call
00:30:44.020 or you can reach out
00:30:45.240 and to be clear,
00:30:45.940 these are healthy people
00:30:47.300 when you're talking
00:30:47.820 about euthanasia
00:30:48.660 or medical aid
00:30:49.300 and dying.
00:30:50.080 These are healthy people
00:30:50.960 who've already called
00:30:51.720 your clinic
00:30:52.140 and made an appointment
00:30:53.080 and walked into
00:30:53.900 your clinic
00:30:54.360 and will walk
00:30:54.940 out of your clinic.
00:30:55.680 So these are
00:30:56.080 ambulatory healthy people.
00:30:57.400 We're not talking
00:30:58.100 about the in-hospital
00:30:59.500 situation.
00:31:00.160 We can unpack that
00:31:01.140 if you want later.
00:31:02.720 But simply saying,
00:31:04.080 yes,
00:31:04.460 that's how you access.
00:31:05.500 There's a 1-800 number.
00:31:06.960 There's a website
00:31:07.760 or the local urgent care
00:31:10.500 staffed by public health
00:31:11.820 nurses does it
00:31:12.740 or the community care
00:31:14.040 health center.
00:31:15.100 Wherever it is,
00:31:16.640 people are generally
00:31:17.440 very okay with saying,
00:31:19.320 yeah,
00:31:19.500 that's how you access it.
00:31:21.140 When the liberals
00:31:22.020 are coming out
00:31:22.800 and making that comment
00:31:24.120 that Justin Trudeau
00:31:25.040 made last week,
00:31:25.960 you know,
00:31:26.140 freedom of choice
00:31:26.740 doesn't mean the freedom
00:31:27.540 for a doctor to choose.
00:31:28.640 How do you respond
00:31:29.780 to that as a physician?
00:31:31.660 Yeah.
00:31:32.220 So again,
00:31:32.840 he's framing this,
00:31:34.700 framing it as a debate
00:31:35.980 about competing rights
00:31:37.340 and specifically
00:31:38.460 a freedom of religion
00:31:39.800 versus the access to care,
00:31:41.820 which is a total straw man.
00:31:43.140 And so we have to understand
00:31:44.860 what exactly is
00:31:45.960 freedom of conscience
00:31:46.840 and then how does it apply
00:31:48.080 to our system of government
00:31:49.660 and to professions?
00:31:50.680 We've already unpacked
00:31:51.680 how it applies to professions,
00:31:53.040 but I'll read to you
00:31:54.180 from a Supreme Court
00:31:54.860 of Canada case
00:31:55.720 in 1993,
00:31:56.940 right,
00:31:57.220 Rodriguez case.
00:31:58.500 This is Antonio Lammer
00:31:59.980 saying here,
00:32:00.560 quote,
00:32:01.080 an emphasis
00:32:01.640 on individual conscience
00:32:02.960 and individual judgment
00:32:04.340 also lies at the heart
00:32:06.440 of our democratic
00:32:07.440 political condition
00:32:08.620 or tradition rather.
00:32:10.540 The ability of each citizen
00:32:11.740 to make free
00:32:12.660 and informed decisions
00:32:14.500 is the absolute prerequisite
00:32:17.560 for the legitimacy,
00:32:19.200 acceptability,
00:32:20.000 and efficacy
00:32:20.680 of our system
00:32:21.620 of self-government.
00:32:22.920 And then more recently
00:32:23.660 in 2009,
00:32:24.760 Justice Abella,
00:32:25.620 again,
00:32:25.880 Supreme Court of Canada,
00:32:27.140 quoting a European case
00:32:28.620 said,
00:32:29.020 quote,
00:32:29.180 freedom of thought,
00:32:31.020 conscience,
00:32:31.460 and religion,
00:32:32.760 so she clumps them
00:32:33.700 all together this time,
00:32:35.020 is one of the foundations
00:32:36.340 of a democratic society.
00:32:38.580 It is one of the most
00:32:39.760 vital elements
00:32:40.540 that go up
00:32:41.100 to make the identity
00:32:41.920 of believers
00:32:42.740 and their conception
00:32:43.640 of life,
00:32:44.120 but it is also
00:32:44.800 a precious asset
00:32:45.940 for atheists,
00:32:47.440 agnostics,
00:32:48.600 skeptics,
00:32:49.460 and the unconcerned.
00:32:51.340 The pluralism
00:32:52.700 indissociable
00:32:53.980 from a democratic society
00:32:55.440 which depends upon it.
00:32:56.560 So this is the Supreme Court
00:32:58.040 of Canada saying
00:32:58.920 this is the prerequisite
00:33:00.280 for democratic society.
00:33:02.660 And so for Justin Trudeau
00:33:04.520 to be throwing this out
00:33:05.420 on a campaign
00:33:06.080 and saying,
00:33:06.840 oh yeah,
00:33:07.260 it's his rights
00:33:07.840 against her rights
00:33:08.680 and that is just so wrong
00:33:10.660 and he knows it
00:33:11.960 or he should know it.
00:33:13.400 Dr. Sean Watley,
00:33:14.880 author of the book
00:33:15.500 When Politics
00:33:16.180 Comes Before Patients,
00:33:17.600 also health policy fellow
00:33:19.000 over at the
00:33:20.040 Macdonald-Laurier Institute.
00:33:21.780 Sean,
00:33:22.040 always a pleasure.
00:33:22.720 Thanks for coming on today.
00:33:24.360 Thanks again, Andrew.
00:33:25.780 Dr. Sean Watley,
00:33:27.300 always a pleasure.
00:33:28.080 We've got to end things here.
00:33:29.700 My thanks to you all
00:33:30.460 for tuning into the program today,
00:33:32.280 Canada's most irreverent talk show.
00:33:34.420 You can keep up
00:33:35.000 with all of our election coverage
00:33:36.440 over at tnc.news.
00:33:38.660 We'll be back
00:33:39.320 with another edition
00:33:40.140 of the program
00:33:40.720 in just a couple of days' time.
00:33:42.400 Thank you,
00:33:42.840 God bless,
00:33:43.560 and good day to you all.
00:33:44.520 Thanks for listening
00:33:45.120 to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:33:46.560 Support the program
00:33:47.380 by donating to True North
00:33:48.600 at www.tnc.news.
00:33:51.760 The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:33:56.300 Thanks for listening to the program
00:34:07.520 in person.
00:34:09.800 Thank you.
00:34:10.800 Bye.
00:34:10.840 Bye.
00:34:15.100 Bye.
00:34:15.380 Bye.
00:34:19.620 Bye.
00:34:20.120 Bye.