Juno News - Chrystia Freeland's ＂manipulated media＂ a sign of Liberal campaign desperation

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:06.660 This is the Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:00:12.640 Coming up, the Liberal campaign is so desperate they have to start dispensing fake news,

00:00:17.480 plus why conscience rights for healthcare practitioners matter.

00:00:22.840 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.

00:00:26.380 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:31.960 This is the Andrew Lawton Show here on True North, kicking up another week of Campaign 44.

00:00:38.280 It is Monday, August 23rd, 2021.

00:00:41.860 Hope you're all having a great day.

00:00:43.500 What day are we on now?

00:00:44.500 So it started on a Sunday, so I guess we are on day, is it day nine of the campaign already?

00:00:50.380 I know this is the first week's exciting, the last week's exciting,

00:00:54.040 and the middle part can sometimes drag a little bit,

00:00:56.800 but we'll try to find some other things to talk about

00:00:59.100 when there is less going on in Canadian politics than there is now.

00:01:03.700 But you know what?

00:01:04.620 The Liberal implosion, I think, is worth a fair bit of coverage.

00:01:08.140 The most recent example of this, you're going to be hearing a lot from,

00:01:11.560 I know True North is covering it, everyone's talking about it,

00:01:14.700 even the legacy media outlets are.

00:01:16.680 Chrystia Freeland, the Deputy Prime Minister, the Finance Minister,

00:01:20.600 one of the chief spokespeople of the Liberal Party of Canada,

00:01:25.300 has been flagged by Twitter with disseminating manipulated media.

00:01:31.120 So this is like right up there with Hunter Biden laptop, New York Post-style Twitter intervention,

00:01:36.540 which rarely tends to go against the left.

00:01:39.240 But Chrystia Freeland has now been accused by Twitter of sharing manipulated media 1.00

00:01:44.760 all over a tweet that the Liberals have been putting out that is very much deceptively edited

00:01:51.140 to show Aaron O'Toole saying something that he isn't really saying on healthcare.

00:01:57.240 I want to play first off what Chrystia Freeland shared.

00:02:01.220 This is the entirety of the Chrystia Freeland edit of this Aaron O'Toole clip,

00:02:05.900 which is from a Q&A that Aaron O'Toole did during the Conservative leadership race last year

00:02:11.080 with the Canada Strong and Free Network, formerly the Manning Centre.

00:02:15.800 Would you be prepared to allow provinces to experiment with real healthcare reform,

00:02:21.180 including the provision of private, for-profit, and non-profit healthcare options

00:02:26.040 inside of universal coverage?

00:02:27.680 Yes.

00:02:30.200 Now I'll elaborate a little bit more.

00:02:32.220 We can't have just one old model that is increasingly becoming inefficient,

00:02:38.460 and we have to find public-private synergies,

00:02:43.600 and that capital will come in to drive efficiencies.

00:02:47.680 I've run on this for several years now.

00:02:50.680 So right there, Aaron O'Toole asked unequivocally,

00:02:52.860 are you going to let provinces do for-profit healthcare, private healthcare?

00:02:57.660 And he says yes.

00:02:58.780 And he talks about the need to have private synergies, capital, all of this sort of stuff.

00:03:03.660 Well, this is a little bit of a longer clip, but I want you to hear it.

00:03:08.000 This is the entirety of Aaron O'Toole's response.

00:03:11.200 The question's fair.

00:03:12.140 She didn't edit the question.

00:03:13.260 From Kate Harrison, who you may see, she's on TV all the time 0.98

00:03:16.320 as a Conservative strategist and commentator.

00:03:18.660 But this is Aaron O'Toole's actual response, unedited.

00:03:24.460 Yes.

00:03:25.760 Now I'll elaborate a little bit more.

00:03:27.940 I refer to my previous leadership quite regularly.

00:03:31.260 Our team now calls that the warm-up, because we're going to win this one.

00:03:35.080 But I also ran on this principle, Kate,

00:03:37.560 because if we're expecting innovation and more choice and better performance,

00:03:43.320 we can't have just one old model that is increasingly becoming inefficient

00:03:50.040 because of the amazing new drugs that are dragging some of the funds

00:03:54.780 into other areas in our healthcare system, especially biologics,

00:03:58.260 which the Trudeau government also messed up in terms of the NAFTA negotiations.

00:04:03.280 If we want to see that innovation, we have to find public-private synergies

00:04:09.340 and make sure that universal access remains paramount.

00:04:13.960 And I actually praised what Brad Wall did with respect to diagnostic imaging

00:04:17.940 because he's actually making sure that wait times for everyone go down

00:04:23.360 as a result of the investment by the private sector

00:04:28.060 to make sure there are more diagnostic imaging machines.

00:04:31.220 I thought that was a brilliant move to show the public at large

00:04:34.120 there's going to be an overall benefit because everyone's wait times will go down,

00:04:37.800 but people will be able to access services

00:04:41.100 and that capital will come in to drive efficiencies, drive innovation.

00:04:46.920 In fact, there was a decision in Quebec, the Cherouli decision,

00:04:50.900 that says it's a right for Canadians.

00:04:53.120 Now, because it was a civil code, not everyone applies it across the country.

00:04:56.920 It is certainly.

00:04:58.080 If the same issue came to the Supreme Court,

00:05:00.300 there's no way they could say the state can prevent people,

00:05:04.080 as you said, the communist China example.

00:05:07.020 So let's try and do it in a way that's fair, measured,

00:05:10.540 and keep the public with us.

00:05:12.380 I've run on this for several years now,

00:05:15.660 and I do think in the 905 my region,

00:05:18.520 people are open to it, provided we don't let the liberals define us.

00:05:22.520 We have to have someone that can defend these principles and these ideas.

00:05:27.020 And I think in this race, I'm the only one who can.

00:05:29.320 Now, if it helps you understand just how much was cut out of that,

00:05:33.680 take a look at this transcript that someone on Twitter put together.

00:05:37.360 The highlighted bits are things that were in Chrystia Freeland's version of it.

00:05:41.740 The full transcript is what Aaron O'Toole actually said.

00:05:45.500 And he talks about this key line,

00:05:47.880 make sure that universal access remains paramount.

00:05:52.160 He's not trying to upend or uproot universal health care.

00:05:55.320 Quite the contrary, he's saying let's work within the universal system

00:05:59.020 to find new ways to do things, better ways to do things,

00:06:02.600 and things that allow for the injection of private capital.

00:06:06.140 This liberal terror about the idea of any private sector involvement

00:06:11.440 in the health care system is completely absurd.

00:06:14.520 Let's take a look at vaccines.

00:06:15.880 The liberals have been thumping their chests about their vaccine rollout.

00:06:18.560 What has been the vaccination effort but a major,

00:06:22.440 major partnership between governments and for-profit private companies?

00:06:27.200 Pfizer is not a charity.

00:06:29.080 Moderna is not a charity.

00:06:30.840 AstraZeneca is not a charity.

00:06:32.820 These institutions are doing these things to make money.

00:06:37.100 And it's because of private sector innovation

00:06:39.740 that the government has been able to do what it wants on vaccines.

00:06:43.740 So this tweet that Chrystia Freeland shares is very much deceptive.

00:06:51.060 It is, as Twitter says, manipulated media.

00:06:53.220 She's trying to accuse Aaron O'Toole of saying

00:06:55.480 he wants to auction off the health care system to the highest bidder.

00:06:58.560 And what O'Toole is actually saying is a very valid thing,

00:07:01.340 which is that, yeah, we have this health care system.

00:07:03.580 It's not working all that well.

00:07:05.520 Let's find ways to modernize it without threatening that core universality.

00:07:10.960 Now, I don't want to make this about health care policy.

00:07:13.740 But I am going to talk a little bit about why it is so disingenuous.

00:07:17.780 The liberals are doubling down on this.

00:07:19.800 One of the more charitable interpretations

00:07:21.680 might have been that Chrystia Freeland was just being a team player. 1.00

00:07:25.220 Some staffer put it out.

00:07:26.500 She didn't even know about it.

00:07:28.080 Well, this video from a rally at her office this weekend

00:07:31.440 shows how proud she is of this,

00:07:34.780 how much it fits in to the liberals' campaign strategy.

00:07:38.760 had we not won the 2019 election.

00:07:42.440 I wake up in a cold sweat thinking about that.

00:07:45.500 Do you think that conservatives would have provided the support

00:07:49.120 to individuals and to businesses that we did?

00:07:51.660 Do you think they would have bought the vaccines that we did?

00:07:54.700 No.

00:07:54.940 I don't think so.

00:07:56.540 And so it really, really matters.

00:07:59.200 And it matters for the future.

00:08:03.000 We put out, I think we put this out already.

00:08:06.120 If not, you guys are going to get the scoop on the rest of the country.

00:08:09.140 But we tweeted out some video of Aaron O'Toole

00:08:13.540 during the conservative leadership campaign

00:08:17.500 where he talks about privatizing Medicare.

00:08:21.260 Can you believe that?

00:08:23.060 So she's proud about it.

00:08:24.380 She's given everyone the drop telling them,

00:08:26.100 oh yeah, we got this clip where Aaron O'Toole,

00:08:28.000 can you believe it, defends private health care.

00:08:30.620 Oh my goodness.

00:08:32.500 And then Justin Trudeau was asked about it.

00:08:34.960 Now he was asked about this

00:08:36.300 after the liberals had been slapped

00:08:39.220 with that manipulated media tag on Twitter.

00:08:41.620 He was asked about this

00:08:42.600 after the conservatives filed

00:08:44.920 an official complaint with the Commissioner of Canada Elections,

00:08:48.700 a complaint that basically is calling on Canada's election regulator

00:08:53.020 to intervene because of the deceptive nature of this.

00:08:57.320 And this is what Justin Trudeau had to say.

00:08:59.860 Of the fact that Twitter says that a video

00:09:01.960 that was posted by Chrystia Freeland

00:09:03.880 has been manipulated

00:09:05.360 and now legal counsel for the Conservative Party

00:09:08.660 is asking for an immediate investigation into that video.

00:09:12.160 What's really important here

00:09:15.140 is that in the middle of a pandemic,

00:09:18.280 Aaron O'Toole came out unequivocally

00:09:20.720 in support of private health care

00:09:23.700 in terms of for-profit health care.

00:09:28.080 We posted the entire interview on it,

00:09:31.420 on, we posted the entire interview in its entirety

00:09:36.140 and I encourage all Canadians to take a look

00:09:39.300 to see what Aaron O'Toole has to say

00:09:41.460 about what he sees on the future of health care.

00:09:43.680 So he defends it.

00:09:44.520 He says, oh no, we put out the whole video.

00:09:46.540 Yeah, if you, you know, click 19 times,

00:09:48.660 you might find your way to where we put the whole video,

00:09:51.680 but that's not the point.

00:09:52.900 It's the thousands and thousands and thousands of people

00:09:55.860 that have interacted with the deceptively edited one

00:09:58.700 that's the problem.

00:09:59.860 You don't get a pass on dishonestly clipping someone

00:10:03.240 in a certain way

00:10:03.980 just because you somewhere else put the full version.

00:10:07.040 No, that's besides the point.

00:10:09.820 But here's the thing that's interesting.

00:10:11.700 I mentioned a moment ago,

00:10:12.740 the Conservatives have complained

00:10:14.100 with the Commissioner of Canada elections

00:10:17.000 and I think this is important.

00:10:18.400 Now, these things tend to take a fair bit of time

00:10:21.920 for anything to happen.

00:10:23.420 So I think it's a lot more

00:10:24.860 in the realm of posturing right now

00:10:27.520 than it is something that could have

00:10:29.540 a substantial effect on the election.

00:10:31.480 But nonetheless, the Conservatives are availing themselves

00:10:34.240 of one complaint mechanism they have in this election.

00:10:38.200 But the reality is we're talking about liberal panic right now.

00:10:42.480 Last week, they decided to have abortion day

00:10:45.000 because they were losing in that regard.

00:10:47.240 And I'm going to be talking a little bit more

00:10:48.700 about the conscience rights question

00:10:50.280 in a few moments on the show.

00:10:52.200 But my goodness, what the Liberals are doing here

00:10:54.780 is throwing out every single stop they have imaginable.

00:10:57.960 They're reaching right down

00:10:58.840 into the bottom of that bag of cliches

00:11:01.000 they carry from election to election.

00:11:03.180 And it's, he's just like Stephen Harper.

00:11:05.820 Okay, yeah, they're going to ban abortion.

00:11:08.860 The privatizing healthcare.

00:11:11.420 And people aren't really buying it.

00:11:13.960 Certainly not in my circles.

00:11:15.720 And I try to keep an eye out for people

00:11:17.900 and communities and groups

00:11:19.100 that are not just those who think of the world

00:11:21.680 the way I do and see the world the way I do.

00:11:24.300 Part of it seems to be, to the media's credit,

00:11:26.380 the media seems to be not completely buying in

00:11:29.680 to the whole scheme this time around.

00:11:31.980 I don't know if it's that the Liberals

00:11:33.720 are just going to be dropping these things every day

00:11:36.160 until the election's over,

00:11:37.640 or if they are just completely using up

00:11:40.240 every attack they have in the first week

00:11:42.520 because they have nothing else going for them.

00:11:44.700 But the reality is that this is not a party

00:11:47.560 that has a solid, clear, cohesive, or coherent message.

00:11:52.680 Not in the least.

00:11:54.500 This is a party that is just throwing anything

00:11:57.980 and everything, but not even in one direction.

00:12:01.160 They're just trying to take aim at Conservatives

00:12:03.460 in a manner that's not particularly believable

00:12:06.860 with Erin O'Toole.

00:12:09.580 And I've had my fair share of criticisms

00:12:11.960 for how the Conservatives have run things,

00:12:14.280 how Erin O'Toole has approached certain topics.

00:12:16.480 This is an analysis, not an endorsement.

00:12:19.000 But one thing that's important to note here

00:12:20.620 is that I don't think most Canadians

00:12:21.960 are looking at Erin O'Toole

00:12:23.200 and seeing anyone who is particularly radical.

00:12:26.520 So all of these attacks that are based on this idea

00:12:29.160 of the conservative boogeyman,

00:12:31.340 I don't think are really flying

00:12:33.260 with a guy who comes across and positions himself

00:12:36.420 and, by and large, is a political moderate.

00:12:40.180 Now, here's an interesting thing.

00:12:41.680 And I should, by the way, say

00:12:43.260 that I do not have access

00:12:44.940 to Justin Trudeau's campaign events.

00:12:46.800 I haven't tried because I haven't been

00:12:48.200 in the same city as him when he's had one.

00:12:50.120 But the standing order from 2019

00:12:52.380 is that they do not recognize me

00:12:55.180 as a journalist, so I can't go.

00:12:57.260 If I were a journalist covering

00:12:59.300 Justin Trudeau's campaign,

00:13:01.540 here's a question that I would like

00:13:04.280 to see asked of him.

00:13:05.380 And bear with me if it gets a little bit

00:13:07.000 politically wonky here.

00:13:08.780 But in 2015, you may remember,

00:13:11.600 Stephen Harper was dogged by

00:13:13.180 all of these hypothetical scenarios.

00:13:15.100 He had a majority government

00:13:16.300 going into the election.

00:13:17.300 And he was asked if you fall short

00:13:20.980 by just a few votes.

00:13:22.140 So basically, that's if you lose

00:13:24.160 to a minority government,

00:13:26.020 will you step down?

00:13:27.540 Or will you try to cobble together

00:13:29.500 a coalition to cling to power?

00:13:31.440 And Stephen Harper was very transparent about this.

00:13:33.760 He said, my belief is that

00:13:35.600 if I don't get the most seats,

00:13:37.280 I've lost the election.

00:13:38.400 And you had all of these,

00:13:39.300 you know, constitutional professors

00:13:41.340 that were saying,

00:13:41.900 oh, but that's not actually the law.

00:13:43.520 No, it doesn't need to be.

00:13:44.520 But it's Stephen Harper's view

00:13:45.700 that voters elect a government

00:13:47.860 and whoever they elect

00:13:49.580 should have the opportunity to govern.

00:13:52.460 But I would like to see

00:13:53.760 Justin Trudeau ask this question.

00:13:55.660 Let's say that there's

00:13:56.520 a conservative minority elected

00:13:58.560 on September 20th.

00:14:01.200 Are you, Justin Trudeau,

00:14:02.720 going to try to cling to power

00:14:04.580 by getting the opposition parties

00:14:06.420 to prop you up?

00:14:07.820 Or are you going to accept

00:14:09.040 that the conservatives won the election?

00:14:12.120 And this is a very important question.

00:14:13.860 And you could ask it to Justin Trudeau

00:14:15.760 point blank very easily.

00:14:17.880 And I put it on Twitter.

00:14:19.140 If you don't secure the most seats,

00:14:21.180 can you guarantee

00:14:22.100 you won't try to remain prime minister?

00:14:25.880 And his answer would be

00:14:27.220 very illuminating on that

00:14:28.560 because I don't think this is a guy

00:14:29.860 that wants to just accept defeat

00:14:31.500 if that's what the voters

00:14:33.140 have in store for him.

00:14:34.440 I think he's going to keep

00:14:35.320 trying to cobble together

00:14:36.380 coalition after coalition

00:14:37.980 after coalition.

00:14:39.080 And all of this panic

00:14:40.580 about conservatives

00:14:41.580 and coalition governments,

00:14:42.980 I don't think is translating

00:14:45.040 to very legitimate questions

00:14:46.640 that need to be asked

00:14:47.660 of Justin Trudeau.

00:14:50.140 And just look, for example,

00:14:52.180 at one of the obvious realities

00:14:54.120 in politics is that

00:14:55.240 in the House of Commons,

00:14:56.820 you have five parties represented.

00:14:59.220 Four of them are left-wing parties.

00:15:01.820 Yes, we have the PPC.

00:15:03.360 We have Derek Sloan

00:15:04.240 running as an independent.

00:15:05.580 We've got the Maverick Party

00:15:06.560 and all of that.

00:15:07.140 But in the House of Commons,

00:15:09.020 before Parliament was dissolved,

00:15:10.420 you had the Conservatives

00:15:11.420 on the right

00:15:12.020 and then you had the Liberals,

00:15:13.560 the NDP,

00:15:14.200 the Bloc Québécois

00:15:15.000 and the Green Party

00:15:16.440 on the left.

00:15:17.640 And not a single

00:15:18.780 fellow right-of-center party

00:15:21.340 that could prop up

00:15:22.800 the Conservatives.

00:15:23.480 Now, the Bloc Québécois

00:15:24.680 is a little bit

00:15:25.820 of a game changer

00:15:26.780 because if the Conservatives

00:15:28.000 continue doing

00:15:28.700 what they're doing now,

00:15:29.560 which is trying to

00:15:30.840 put more money into Quebec

00:15:32.040 and start talking

00:15:33.120 about the Quebec nation

00:15:34.320 and Aaron O'Toole

00:15:35.500 has promised

00:15:36.160 that he would allow Quebec

00:15:37.260 to expand its control

00:15:39.020 of language

00:15:39.720 in federally regulated sectors,

00:15:42.360 a move that has angered

00:15:43.740 a lot of Quebec Anglos,

00:15:45.380 by the way.

00:15:46.020 Not that there are

00:15:46.580 too many of them left.

00:15:47.980 But Conservatives

00:15:49.540 could theoretically

00:15:50.160 try to get some support

00:15:51.240 from the Bloc.

00:15:51.900 However,

00:15:52.800 we remember in 2008

00:15:54.380 how frustrated

00:15:55.800 the Conservatives were,

00:15:56.880 rightfully so,

00:15:58.060 at the idea

00:15:58.920 of a coalition government,

00:16:00.400 informal or otherwise,

00:16:02.080 that involved

00:16:02.800 the Bloc Québécois,

00:16:03.860 a party that seeks

00:16:04.660 to take down Canada

00:16:06.740 and break up Confederation.

00:16:08.600 So all of this is,

00:16:10.180 I think,

00:16:10.440 to say we don't know

00:16:11.420 what's going to happen,

00:16:12.200 but we do need

00:16:13.160 to start asking

00:16:13.780 the questions of

00:16:14.580 is Justin Trudeau

00:16:15.940 going to step down

00:16:17.440 if he does not win,

00:16:20.100 but if there is,

00:16:21.180 in his mind,

00:16:21.920 a path to victory

00:16:22.880 in the House of Commons

00:16:23.960 as opposed to

00:16:25.100 a path to victory

00:16:26.000 in what the voters

00:16:27.000 in Canada are deciding.

00:16:28.920 And that's a question

00:16:29.680 that he needs to answer,

00:16:31.020 but more importantly,

00:16:31.700 it's a question

00:16:32.200 the media needs to ask

00:16:33.320 that so far has not been.

00:16:35.340 We've got to take

00:16:36.120 a quick break.

00:16:36.860 When we come back,

00:16:37.560 more of The Andrew Lawton Show

00:16:38.900 here on True North.

00:16:39.940 Stay tuned.

00:16:42.700 You're tuned in

00:16:43.840 to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:16:47.920 Welcome back

00:16:48.680 to The Andrew Lawton Show,

00:16:50.060 Canada's most irreverent 0.98

00:16:51.540 talk show here

00:16:52.180 on True North.

00:16:53.320 I want to talk about

00:16:54.280 conscience rights,

00:16:55.180 which is one of the

00:16:56.080 most important aspects

00:16:57.640 of the healthcare system,

00:16:59.220 but also,

00:17:00.020 as we're seeing

00:17:00.800 in the last few days,

00:17:01.900 one of the most misunderstood.

00:17:05.520 Justin Trudeau says

00:17:06.740 that if you have

00:17:07.880 conscience rights,

00:17:08.780 it doesn't mean

00:17:09.320 a doctor gets to

00:17:10.400 uphold their conscience.

00:17:12.080 Rather,

00:17:12.520 it means individual

00:17:13.840 patients can,

00:17:14.800 specifically women. 0.97

00:17:16.600 The reality is

00:17:17.540 conscience rights

00:17:18.340 are not just about

00:17:19.780 imposing a religious 0.83

00:17:21.080 worldview on patients,

00:17:22.380 which is how the liberals

00:17:23.280 have tried to paint it,

00:17:24.760 but something that has

00:17:25.640 a very significant

00:17:26.980 implication

00:17:28.160 if you try to regulate it

00:17:29.620 or take those rights away

00:17:30.780 on the healthcare field.

00:17:32.780 I want to talk about this

00:17:33.800 in just a couple of moments

00:17:34.960 with Dr. Sean Watley,

00:17:36.380 but I first want to talk

00:17:37.400 about the political

00:17:38.600 implications of this

00:17:39.760 because shortly after

00:17:41.380 I published my previous show,

00:17:43.720 which came out on Friday

00:17:44.800 of last week,

00:17:46.020 Aaron O'Toole

00:17:46.640 walked back

00:17:47.720 his defense of

00:17:49.560 conscience rights

00:17:50.320 that is enshrined

00:17:51.680 in the conservative platform.

00:17:53.180 So the platform

00:17:53.720 is very clear

00:17:54.620 that there are going to be

00:17:56.080 conscience rights

00:17:56.760 for healthcare practitioners,

00:17:57.860 and this is a pledge

00:17:58.760 that he made

00:17:59.400 in the leadership race

00:18:00.740 going back a year ago.

00:18:02.360 Well, once the liberals

00:18:03.500 started to throw

00:18:04.320 all of these evil,

00:18:05.260 scary,

00:18:05.640 social conservative agenda

00:18:07.040 attacks on him,

00:18:08.780 he walked it back.

00:18:09.900 I think we can find

00:18:10.760 a reasonable balance

00:18:11.820 for those conscience protections

00:18:13.920 while ensuring

00:18:15.000 referring of those Canadians

00:18:17.020 to the services

00:18:17.880 is provided.

00:18:19.340 I think Canadians want 0.99

00:18:20.480 a reasonable approach here.

00:18:22.320 That is what we will offer,

00:18:23.740 but let me reiterate,

00:18:25.360 I'm here to defend

00:18:26.220 the rights of all Canadians,

00:18:27.980 and that will be

00:18:29.040 my approach

00:18:29.640 as prime minister.

00:18:30.560 Will they have to refer?

00:18:34.140 Will they have to refer?

00:18:36.520 Yes, they will have to refer

00:18:43.720 because the rights

00:18:44.960 to access those services

00:18:46.180 exist across the country.

00:18:47.800 Now, this obviously

00:18:48.780 went over like a lead balloon

00:18:50.560 among those whose support

00:18:52.580 was instrumental

00:18:53.400 in giving Aaron O'Toole

00:18:55.100 the victory.

00:18:56.100 A lot of the social conservative

00:18:57.440 and pro-life members

00:18:58.700 of the Conservative Party

00:19:00.080 or of the conservative movement

00:19:01.920 in Canada,

00:19:02.940 chief among them right now,

00:19:04.360 a pro-life action group

00:19:05.800 that was very frustrated

00:19:07.840 by what happened.

00:19:08.660 They put out a press release

00:19:09.780 on Friday calling on Aaron O'Toole

00:19:12.040 to clarify his position

00:19:14.460 because it would,

00:19:16.220 as you heard in that clip,

00:19:17.480 require healthcare practitioners

00:19:18.860 to refer.

00:19:20.820 And Alyssa Golob,

00:19:22.240 who's been on this show

00:19:23.020 in the past,

00:19:23.620 says Aaron O'Toole

00:19:24.300 has flip-flopped

00:19:25.340 on a key promise

00:19:26.300 he made to pro-lifers

00:19:27.320 during the conservative

00:19:28.240 leadership race.

00:19:29.480 The Conservative Party

00:19:30.320 is united.

00:19:31.360 They passed a motion

00:19:32.120 at a policy convention

00:19:33.280 specifically stating

00:19:34.620 the medical professionals

00:19:35.960 would not have to provide

00:19:37.240 effective referrals

00:19:38.160 when it comes to

00:19:39.080 assisted suicide

00:19:39.880 and other procedures

00:19:41.320 such as abortion.

00:19:42.700 People were excited

00:19:43.580 when it was in the platform,

00:19:44.920 and now the conscience rights

00:19:46.560 policy is essentially

00:19:47.880 null and void

00:19:49.140 if they must effectively

00:19:50.780 refer for medically

00:19:52.320 unnecessary procedures

00:19:53.700 such as physician-assisted suicide.

00:19:56.420 Now, switch to a Scott Hayward

00:19:58.080 quote there,

00:19:58.700 but same sentiment.

00:19:59.940 Now, this is where

00:20:01.060 it gets tricky

00:20:01.740 because a lot of people

00:20:02.720 would listen and say,

00:20:03.740 well, you're not providing

00:20:05.580 the procedure.

00:20:06.560 Why does it matter

00:20:07.400 if you're referring?

00:20:08.360 Isn't that just something

00:20:09.240 as simple as letting people know,

00:20:11.240 okay, I don't do this,

00:20:12.360 but they do it over here?

00:20:13.920 Well, in medicine,

00:20:15.120 referral means something

00:20:16.640 very specific,

00:20:17.620 and I saw this addressed

00:20:19.100 by Dr. Sean Watley

00:20:20.860 on Twitter,

00:20:22.000 and I wanted to bring him

00:20:22.820 on the show

00:20:23.240 because I want people

00:20:24.120 to realize why this

00:20:25.260 so-called duty to refer,

00:20:26.900 this requirement

00:20:27.900 of providing a referral,

00:20:30.160 is in fact a violation

00:20:31.900 of the conscience rights

00:20:33.460 that need to be upheld

00:20:34.860 by doctors and for doctors

00:20:37.220 and other healthcare practitioners.

00:20:39.280 Sean Watley

00:20:39.860 is the health policy fellow

00:20:41.660 at the MacDonald-Laurier Institute

00:20:43.220 and the author

00:20:44.220 of the fantastic book

00:20:45.260 When Politics Comes Before Patients.

00:20:48.280 Sean, good to talk to you

00:20:49.160 as always.

00:20:49.580 Thanks for coming on today.

00:20:51.020 Thank you, Andrew.

00:20:52.280 So the last few days

00:20:53.680 of the campaign,

00:20:54.960 the conscience rights question

00:20:56.780 has come up.

00:20:57.820 The conservative platform

00:20:59.560 initially said

00:21:00.460 it was going to protect

00:21:01.620 conscience rights

00:21:02.620 for healthcare practitioners,

00:21:04.420 cue liberal backlash.

00:21:05.800 You fast forward

00:21:06.440 a couple of days

00:21:07.300 and Aaron O'Toole

00:21:08.620 has walked it back

00:21:09.740 slightly saying

00:21:10.860 yes, we won't make anyone

00:21:12.640 do anything

00:21:13.460 except for refer.

00:21:15.360 Now this would

00:21:16.040 to a lot of people

00:21:17.020 seem like a completely

00:21:18.400 reasonable compromise

00:21:20.000 but I saw some

00:21:21.040 of your tweets on this

00:21:21.900 and I've heard

00:21:22.600 healthcare practitioners

00:21:23.860 bring this up before

00:21:25.060 and the idea

00:21:26.060 of merely referring

00:21:27.440 something like an abortion

00:21:28.980 or an assisted death

00:21:30.320 is not as benign

00:21:31.840 as it's made out to be.

00:21:33.300 Explain this.

00:21:34.480 So I'm glad you brought this

00:21:36.360 to the focus of referral.

00:21:38.000 I think a lot of patients

00:21:39.460 assume that referral

00:21:41.300 is just kind of like

00:21:42.320 telling people information

00:21:43.840 and actually when you look

00:21:45.880 at what patients want

00:21:47.140 and I've seen polling data

00:21:48.460 on this,

00:21:48.940 hopefully it'll come out

00:21:49.740 over the next little while,

00:21:51.040 that patients are actually

00:21:52.680 very supportive

00:21:53.480 of their doctors

00:21:54.200 talking to them

00:21:55.020 about things

00:21:55.680 and I think all doctors

00:21:56.880 want to do this.

00:21:57.900 Let's talk about

00:21:58.440 all the options.

00:21:59.480 Here's the pros and cons

00:22:00.500 of this direction,

00:22:01.260 that direction.

00:22:01.880 How does it fit with you?

00:22:03.380 But when you actually

00:22:04.100 start talking about

00:22:05.120 making a referral,

00:22:06.920 so a medical referral

00:22:07.860 is when I refer you

00:22:09.480 for a procedure

00:22:10.960 that I think

00:22:11.600 is going to be good

00:22:12.820 or help you,

00:22:13.640 you need your gallbladder out.

00:22:15.080 Okay, so I think

00:22:16.100 you need your gallbladder out.

00:22:17.460 That's my professional opinion.

00:22:18.560 I'm going to refer you

00:22:19.540 to a specialist

00:22:20.400 whom I trust

00:22:21.480 to do a good job,

00:22:22.660 so someone that I respect.

00:22:24.260 An effective referral

00:22:25.200 flips the whole concept

00:22:26.420 on its head.

00:22:27.640 I am now referring you,

00:22:30.080 sending you,

00:22:30.960 for something

00:22:31.500 that I don't think

00:22:32.240 is actually going to help you.

00:22:33.420 I actually think

00:22:34.020 you need antidepressants

00:22:35.080 for six months

00:22:35.740 or I think you need

00:22:36.360 better palliative care

00:22:37.400 or pain relief

00:22:38.120 or something else.

00:22:40.040 So I don't actually think

00:22:41.380 ending your life

00:22:42.120 is a good thing for you.

00:22:43.460 So now I'm sending you

00:22:44.740 for something

00:22:45.440 that I don't think

00:22:46.500 is good

00:22:46.960 to someone

00:22:47.860 that I'm not sure

00:22:49.120 I agree with

00:22:49.920 their approach

00:22:50.420 to medicine

00:22:51.060 and nor do I hold them

00:22:53.160 in high respect.

00:22:54.840 So now I'm in

00:22:56.000 intimate connection

00:22:58.240 with this therapeutic

00:22:59.420 chain of events

00:23:00.520 that leads

00:23:01.300 towards something

00:23:02.180 that I fundamentally

00:23:03.140 don't agree with.

00:23:05.020 And to be clear,

00:23:05.740 this isn't about

00:23:06.740 freedom of religion.

00:23:08.620 It's about freedom

00:23:09.420 of conscience.

00:23:10.420 And so the debate

00:23:11.960 has been framed

00:23:13.040 in such a way

00:23:13.840 that it's very hard

00:23:14.860 to win that debate, right?

00:23:16.040 A tiny group of people

00:23:17.180 who want to practice

00:23:17.940 their religion

00:23:18.500 versus all these patients

00:23:19.900 who just want medical care.

00:23:22.340 Well, everybody's going to say,

00:23:23.780 well, yeah,

00:23:24.160 I don't share

00:23:24.780 your religious beliefs.

00:23:26.380 Why should you impose

00:23:27.300 them on me?

00:23:28.280 That has framed

00:23:29.620 the debate incorrectly.

00:23:31.640 And I can unpack that

00:23:33.020 for you if you want,

00:23:33.820 but I'm not sure

00:23:34.220 if that's where you want

00:23:34.780 to go in this interview.

00:23:36.180 Actually, I would like to,

00:23:37.460 but just if I can interject

00:23:38.960 for a moment here,

00:23:39.840 I know when my old family

00:23:41.520 doctor retired,

00:23:42.480 for example,

00:23:43.000 it was his daughter

00:23:43.880 that took over the practice.

00:23:45.500 So you have generation removed 0.99

00:23:47.340 between the one doctor

00:23:48.460 and the other.

00:23:49.180 And even in that,

00:23:50.040 there were some slight changes.

00:23:51.360 Now it's not like

00:23:52.080 all of a sudden,

00:23:52.800 you know,

00:23:53.080 we fundamentally inverted,

00:23:55.360 you know,

00:23:55.640 what medicine looks like

00:23:56.740 in this clinic,

00:23:57.380 but each of them

00:23:58.260 has their own approach

00:23:59.500 to certain things.

00:24:00.440 And I know that

00:24:01.320 from doctor to doctor,

00:24:02.640 that's probably pretty common.

00:24:04.980 So the idea of in general

00:24:06.320 trying to take away

00:24:07.220 a doctor's right

00:24:08.280 to do what's best

00:24:09.960 for their patient

00:24:10.720 in their eyes,

00:24:11.720 which is why they got

00:24:12.540 into medicine,

00:24:13.200 seems like a very

00:24:14.020 dangerous precedent.

00:24:16.000 Yeah, so really,

00:24:16.740 you're going where

00:24:17.300 I wanted to go exactly.

00:24:18.760 So you're talking about

00:24:20.200 what function does

00:24:22.140 freedom of conscience,

00:24:23.020 we don't usually use

00:24:23.920 those words,

00:24:25.060 but that's what

00:24:25.480 you're getting at.

00:24:26.160 So the basis of a profession,

00:24:28.180 certainly in medicine,

00:24:29.460 but also in education,

00:24:31.520 in law enforcement,

00:24:33.320 all over the place,

00:24:34.740 you need people

00:24:35.660 to be able to make

00:24:36.860 free and informed decisions

00:24:38.620 on their own

00:24:39.700 in a professional role

00:24:40.900 when they don't have

00:24:42.760 solid evidence either way.

00:24:44.720 So many of the things

00:24:45.920 that we suggest in medicine

00:24:47.160 don't have evidence-based

00:24:49.940 support for them yet.

00:24:51.160 So for example,

00:24:52.280 your child falls off

00:24:53.400 a tricycle,

00:24:54.260 hits her head on the ground,

00:24:55.340 and I see you in the eMERGE.

00:24:57.360 And you say,

00:24:58.220 you know,

00:24:58.520 my wife sent me in.

00:24:59.700 That's what usually happens

00:25:00.640 right when the dad's

00:25:01.400 in the eMERGE.

00:25:01.820 My wife sent me in

00:25:02.660 and she said,

00:25:03.380 get a CAT scan

00:25:04.080 of my daughter's head

00:25:05.180 or whatever.

00:25:05.760 And so we're there

00:25:06.480 discussing and I'm saying,

00:25:07.600 you know what,

00:25:08.040 there's no literature

00:25:08.960 to support CAT scans

00:25:10.400 for every little child

00:25:11.520 who bumps her head.

00:25:12.980 And I think we should

00:25:14.420 take a different approach.

00:25:15.500 Furthermore,

00:25:15.860 these are the risks

00:25:16.920 of having, you know,

00:25:17.740 doses of radiation

00:25:18.460 on your brain, etc.

00:25:19.800 And you say,

00:25:20.500 no, no, no,

00:25:20.880 I really want this.

00:25:21.760 And so it becomes

00:25:22.420 a debate of,

00:25:23.840 and you may even have

00:25:24.520 evidence on your side.

00:25:25.320 You might say,

00:25:25.820 well, actually,

00:25:26.460 you know,

00:25:26.760 modern CT scans

00:25:27.780 are very low-dose radiation

00:25:29.020 and you might compare them

00:25:30.320 to flying in an airplane.

00:25:31.500 And so we have

00:25:32.000 an actual data-based discussion.

00:25:36.060 But at the end of it,

00:25:36.960 I need to be able

00:25:37.880 to have the freedom

00:25:38.600 to say,

00:25:39.160 you know,

00:25:39.380 based on my experience

00:25:40.420 and based on my concern

00:25:41.840 for your health,

00:25:42.660 not only today,

00:25:43.860 but 60, 70,

00:25:45.360 80 years from now,

00:25:46.620 I don't think

00:25:47.720 this is the best direction

00:25:48.900 to go.

00:25:49.720 So that's sort of

00:25:50.540 how freedom of conscience

00:25:52.040 fits into the basis

00:25:54.000 of professions.

00:25:55.760 And that's where

00:25:56.480 the debate needs to happen

00:25:58.040 because we're talking

00:25:59.120 about painkillers

00:26:00.520 and parking stickers

00:26:01.740 and CT scans

00:26:03.060 for kids' heads

00:26:03.900 and you just go

00:26:04.560 all day long

00:26:06.000 in the clinic.

00:26:07.100 I'm asked

00:26:07.740 to make decisions.

00:26:09.580 So physicians,

00:26:10.760 family docs

00:26:11.560 in Canada

00:26:12.320 are gatekeepers

00:26:13.080 for the healthcare system.

00:26:14.560 So to be

00:26:15.240 a gatekeeper,

00:26:16.480 yes,

00:26:16.780 you are informed

00:26:17.660 by evidence,

00:26:18.460 but often you're informed

00:26:19.680 by experience

00:26:20.400 and you say,

00:26:21.040 you know what,

00:26:21.380 I think the likelihood

00:26:22.200 of you needing

00:26:23.520 another MRI

00:26:24.960 for your anterior knee pain

00:26:26.640 is zero.

00:26:27.900 It's not going

00:26:28.280 to tell us anything.

00:26:29.600 And the patient

00:26:30.280 will say,

00:26:30.600 well, prove it.

00:26:31.240 Well, I can't prove it.

00:26:32.820 And so now

00:26:33.280 I'm making a decision

00:26:34.260 for you based

00:26:35.080 on the absence

00:26:35.820 of evidence,

00:26:36.320 but I'm basing it

00:26:37.660 on professional experience.

00:26:39.060 And this is core

00:26:40.040 to freedom of conscience.

00:26:41.140 So that's where

00:26:41.660 the debate needs

00:26:42.420 to happen,

00:26:43.160 at least on

00:26:44.400 the professional side.

00:26:46.260 And I think

00:26:47.000 those are all

00:26:47.580 completely valid examples,

00:26:49.080 but there are also

00:26:50.260 moral aspects to this

00:26:51.760 and there are also

00:26:52.600 religious aspects to this.

00:26:54.140 You have some doctors

00:26:55.020 that may have an aversion

00:26:56.120 to birth control

00:26:57.220 or abortion

00:26:58.180 or in a more,

00:26:59.760 I think,

00:26:59.980 modern example,

00:27:00.780 we know that this

00:27:01.640 liberal bill

00:27:02.440 on assisted suicide

00:27:04.100 could extend

00:27:05.300 to people

00:27:06.080 with mental illnesses

00:27:06.880 and I know

00:27:07.520 there are going to be

00:27:07.940 a lot of doctors

00:27:08.620 that have issues

00:27:09.500 with that.

00:27:10.340 How do you navigate

00:27:11.320 that aspect of it?

00:27:12.520 Because, you know,

00:27:13.280 this is again

00:27:13.740 an example that may

00:27:14.920 or may not have happened,

00:27:15.740 but if you were

00:27:16.540 to have a Jehovah's Witness

00:27:17.780 doctor who doesn't

00:27:19.140 like blood transfusions,

00:27:20.480 I mean,

00:27:20.720 where is that squaring

00:27:22.400 with the professional

00:27:23.860 side of things

00:27:24.580 that you've just laid out?

00:27:26.340 Yeah, so I'm glad

00:27:27.340 you threw up

00:27:27.920 at the opening

00:27:28.500 in the introducing

00:27:29.440 this segment.

00:27:30.300 You said,

00:27:30.700 oh, here we go.

00:27:31.340 We already have abortion 1.00

00:27:32.160 into the election campaign.

00:27:33.940 So I'll use that

00:27:35.320 as an example first.

00:27:36.620 You know,

00:27:36.760 we always hear this.

00:27:37.800 We say,

00:27:38.000 oh, I know,

00:27:38.540 people are going

00:27:38.960 to be blocked

00:27:39.440 from getting abortion

00:27:40.280 if we allow docs

00:27:41.480 to act based

00:27:42.440 on their freedom

00:27:43.440 of religion

00:27:44.040 or freedom of conscience

00:27:45.200 in this particular case.

00:27:47.920 That is a red herring.

00:27:50.080 That is just so wrong.

00:27:51.760 We have had decades

00:27:52.920 of direct access

00:27:54.840 to abortion in Ontario.

00:27:57.060 So when you describe

00:27:58.820 the access,

00:28:00.140 you know,

00:28:00.320 the access is outstanding.

00:28:02.100 It is fantastic.

00:28:03.440 You can access abortion 0.78

00:28:05.020 more easily

00:28:05.800 than any,

00:28:06.740 almost any other

00:28:07.460 medical procedure

00:28:08.360 in Ontario right now

00:28:09.700 because you don't have

00:28:10.440 to go through

00:28:10.880 any gatekeeping.

00:28:11.900 If you need one,

00:28:13.100 you want one,

00:28:13.920 you just go get one.

00:28:15.200 directly.

00:28:15.940 So to say that,

00:28:17.280 oh no,

00:28:17.700 now Andrew,

00:28:18.420 your freedom of religion,

00:28:20.340 conscience,

00:28:21.040 thought,

00:28:21.460 whatever,

00:28:21.800 is going to prevent me

00:28:22.840 from accessing abortion

00:28:23.920 is simply not true

00:28:26.280 in reality.

00:28:27.600 So now when we expand this

00:28:28.860 to medical aid

00:28:29.940 in dying,

00:28:30.720 voluntary assisted suicide

00:28:31.940 or any other procedure

00:28:34.180 that society has decided

00:28:35.760 that we are going to provide

00:28:37.140 within our medical system

00:28:38.320 to set this up

00:28:39.500 as a straw man

00:28:40.160 to say,

00:28:40.640 oh look,

00:28:41.160 now you're going

00:28:41.580 to block me from it.

00:28:42.480 If the state

00:28:43.280 has made a promise

00:28:45.180 to provide

00:28:46.180 a particular procedure,

00:28:47.660 then the state

00:28:49.080 needs to make sure

00:28:50.280 it can provide

00:28:51.860 that access

00:28:52.600 without forcing docs

00:28:53.840 to be involved with it.

00:28:55.240 We have over 25,000

00:28:56.460 practicing physicians

00:28:57.360 at,

00:28:57.700 well,

00:28:58.040 24 to 25,000

00:28:59.460 practicing physicians

00:29:00.680 in Ontario.

00:29:01.860 The Ministry of Health,

00:29:02.900 I was just talking

00:29:03.480 with a civil servant

00:29:04.440 just recently,

00:29:05.200 they said they have

00:29:05.840 less than 700 docs

00:29:07.700 right now

00:29:08.220 in Ontario

00:29:08.780 who have been involved

00:29:10.160 with medical aid

00:29:10.840 in dying

00:29:11.260 and many of them

00:29:12.520 once they do it once

00:29:13.500 they say,

00:29:14.040 you know what,

00:29:14.520 this is just,

00:29:15.480 this is too heavy.

00:29:16.360 I can't,

00:29:17.100 the emotional burden

00:29:18.280 of me doing this,

00:29:19.400 I don't want to make

00:29:20.020 this part of my practice.

00:29:21.320 These are people

00:29:22.060 who support it

00:29:23.040 and are actually

00:29:23.680 being involved with it.

00:29:24.900 So we're going to have

00:29:25.980 a major problem

00:29:27.020 of having

00:29:27.740 even enough physicians

00:29:29.560 available and ready

00:29:30.960 and willing

00:29:31.440 to do the procedure.

00:29:32.940 And so to start talking

00:29:33.860 about,

00:29:34.320 you know,

00:29:34.980 compromising freedom

00:29:35.860 of conscience

00:29:36.380 or a physician's ability

00:29:37.780 to say,

00:29:38.160 no,

00:29:38.460 I don't feel

00:29:39.040 comfortable with this

00:29:40.100 is a major issue

00:29:42.120 and I think we need

00:29:43.160 to have this

00:29:44.560 baked into legislation.

00:29:45.880 We need to be able

00:29:46.560 to protect docs

00:29:47.540 and I would say

00:29:48.380 the vast majority

00:29:49.300 of physicians

00:29:50.040 and voters

00:29:51.640 would agree

00:29:52.860 in that direction.

00:29:54.660 To go back

00:29:55.620 to this idea

00:29:56.580 of the referral,

00:29:57.800 if someone were

00:29:58.400 to go to their family

00:29:59.140 doctor who has

00:30:00.000 a conscience-based

00:30:01.120 objection to something

00:30:02.380 and the patient says,

00:30:03.940 I want this thing,

00:30:05.540 if the doctor

00:30:06.260 were to say,

00:30:07.040 I don't do that,

00:30:08.540 I have an objection

00:30:09.320 to it,

00:30:09.820 but call this person.

00:30:11.020 That's not a referral,

00:30:12.100 correct?

00:30:12.900 That is not a referral.

00:30:14.580 You could also talk

00:30:15.380 about total transfers

00:30:17.080 of care,

00:30:18.340 but actually

00:30:19.300 that concept

00:30:20.560 of total transfers

00:30:21.500 of care

00:30:22.000 is used by the court

00:30:23.660 to say,

00:30:24.600 oh,

00:30:24.840 you just are trying

00:30:25.600 to abandon

00:30:26.140 your patients now.

00:30:27.260 So actually the people

00:30:28.120 who are against

00:30:29.200 being forced to refer

00:30:31.040 are very,

00:30:31.840 very clear

00:30:32.360 about saying,

00:30:33.520 we're not talking

00:30:34.100 about transferring

00:30:34.720 all care.

00:30:35.580 We don't want

00:30:35.960 to abandon

00:30:36.360 our patients.

00:30:36.900 We want to stay

00:30:37.540 with our patients

00:30:38.460 as long as they

00:30:39.980 want to be with us.

00:30:41.540 But telling them

00:30:42.420 there's a number

00:30:43.360 to call

00:30:44.020 or you can reach out

00:30:45.240 and to be clear,

00:30:45.940 these are healthy people

00:30:47.300 when you're talking

00:30:47.820 about euthanasia

00:30:48.660 or medical aid

00:30:49.300 and dying.

00:30:50.080 These are healthy people

00:30:50.960 who've already called

00:30:51.720 your clinic

00:30:52.140 and made an appointment

00:30:53.080 and walked into

00:30:53.900 your clinic

00:30:54.360 and will walk

00:30:54.940 out of your clinic.

00:30:55.680 So these are

00:30:56.080 ambulatory healthy people.

00:30:57.400 We're not talking

00:30:58.100 about the in-hospital

00:30:59.500 situation.

00:31:00.160 We can unpack that

00:31:01.140 if you want later.

00:31:02.720 But simply saying,

00:31:04.080 yes,

00:31:04.460 that's how you access.

00:31:05.500 There's a 1-800 number.

00:31:06.960 There's a website

00:31:07.760 or the local urgent care

00:31:10.500 staffed by public health

00:31:11.820 nurses does it 1.00

00:31:12.740 or the community care

00:31:14.040 health center.

00:31:15.100 Wherever it is,

00:31:16.640 people are generally

00:31:17.440 very okay with saying,

00:31:19.320 yeah,

00:31:19.500 that's how you access it.

00:31:21.140 When the liberals

00:31:22.020 are coming out

00:31:22.800 and making that comment

00:31:24.120 that Justin Trudeau

00:31:25.040 made last week,

00:31:25.960 you know,

00:31:26.140 freedom of choice

00:31:26.740 doesn't mean the freedom

00:31:27.540 for a doctor to choose.

00:31:28.640 How do you respond

00:31:29.780 to that as a physician?

00:31:31.660 Yeah.

00:31:32.220 So again,

00:31:32.840 he's framing this,

00:31:34.700 framing it as a debate

00:31:35.980 about competing rights

00:31:37.340 and specifically

00:31:38.460 a freedom of religion

00:31:39.800 versus the access to care,

00:31:41.820 which is a total straw man.

00:31:43.140 And so we have to understand

00:31:44.860 what exactly is

00:31:45.960 freedom of conscience

00:31:46.840 and then how does it apply

00:31:48.080 to our system of government

00:31:49.660 and to professions?

00:31:50.680 We've already unpacked

00:31:51.680 how it applies to professions,

00:31:53.040 but I'll read to you

00:31:54.180 from a Supreme Court

00:31:54.860 of Canada case

00:31:55.720 in 1993,

00:31:56.940 right,

00:31:57.220 Rodriguez case.

00:31:58.500 This is Antonio Lammer

00:31:59.980 saying here,

00:32:00.560 quote,

00:32:01.080 an emphasis

00:32:01.640 on individual conscience

00:32:02.960 and individual judgment

00:32:04.340 also lies at the heart

00:32:06.440 of our democratic

00:32:07.440 political condition

00:32:08.620 or tradition rather.

00:32:10.540 The ability of each citizen

00:32:11.740 to make free

00:32:12.660 and informed decisions

00:32:14.500 is the absolute prerequisite

00:32:17.560 for the legitimacy,

00:32:19.200 acceptability,

00:32:20.000 and efficacy

00:32:20.680 of our system

00:32:21.620 of self-government.

00:32:22.920 And then more recently

00:32:23.660 in 2009,

00:32:24.760 Justice Abella,

00:32:25.620 again,

00:32:25.880 Supreme Court of Canada,

00:32:27.140 quoting a European case

00:32:28.620 said,

00:32:29.020 quote,

00:32:29.180 freedom of thought,

00:32:31.020 conscience,

00:32:31.460 and religion,

00:32:32.760 so she clumps them

00:32:33.700 all together this time,

00:32:35.020 is one of the foundations

00:32:36.340 of a democratic society.

00:32:38.580 It is one of the most

00:32:39.760 vital elements

00:32:40.540 that go up

00:32:41.100 to make the identity

00:32:41.920 of believers

00:32:42.740 and their conception

00:32:43.640 of life,

00:32:44.120 but it is also

00:32:44.800 a precious asset

00:32:45.940 for atheists,

00:32:47.440 agnostics,

00:32:48.600 skeptics,

00:32:49.460 and the unconcerned.

00:32:51.340 The pluralism

00:32:52.700 indissociable

00:32:53.980 from a democratic society

00:32:55.440 which depends upon it.

00:32:56.560 So this is the Supreme Court

00:32:58.040 of Canada saying

00:32:58.920 this is the prerequisite

00:33:00.280 for democratic society.

00:33:02.660 And so for Justin Trudeau

00:33:04.520 to be throwing this out

00:33:05.420 on a campaign

00:33:06.080 and saying,

00:33:06.840 oh yeah,

00:33:07.260 it's his rights

00:33:07.840 against her rights 0.55

00:33:08.680 and that is just so wrong

00:33:10.660 and he knows it

00:33:11.960 or he should know it.

00:33:13.400 Dr. Sean Watley,

00:33:14.880 author of the book

00:33:15.500 When Politics

00:33:16.180 Comes Before Patients,

00:33:17.600 also health policy fellow

00:33:19.000 over at the

00:33:20.040 Macdonald-Laurier Institute.

00:33:21.780 Sean,

00:33:22.040 always a pleasure.

00:33:22.720 Thanks for coming on today.

00:33:24.360 Thanks again, Andrew.

00:33:25.780 Dr. Sean Watley,

00:33:27.300 always a pleasure.

00:33:28.080 We've got to end things here.

00:33:29.700 My thanks to you all

00:33:30.460 for tuning into the program today,

00:33:32.280 Canada's most irreverent talk show.

00:33:34.420 You can keep up

00:33:35.000 with all of our election coverage

00:33:36.440 over at tnc.news.

00:33:38.660 We'll be back

00:33:39.320 with another edition

00:33:40.140 of the program

00:33:40.720 in just a couple of days' time.

00:33:42.400 Thank you,

00:33:42.840 God bless,

00:33:43.560 and good day to you all.

00:33:44.520 Thanks for listening

00:33:45.120 to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:33:46.560 Support the program

00:33:47.380 by donating to True North

00:33:48.600 at www.tnc.news.

00:33:51.760 The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:33:56.300 Thanks for listening to the program

00:34:07.520 in person.

00:34:09.800 Thank you.

00:34:10.800 Bye.

00:34:10.840 Bye.

00:34:15.100 Bye.

00:34:15.380 Bye.

00:34:19.620 Bye.

00:34:20.120 Bye.

Juno News - August 23, 2021

Chrystia Freeland's ＂manipulated media＂ a sign of Liberal campaign desperation

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