00:00:00.000economy situation to reopening the economy and doing everything we could
00:00:10.820to achieve a soft landing for the Canadian economy after the trauma of COVID, the COVID
00:00:19.360lockdowns, the COVID recession, the economic trauma. That meant that we were particularly
00:00:26.440focused in the economy on two things. One was supply chains. You know, by now, I think it's
00:00:38.000sort of become part of the common discourse that supply chains were strained by COVID.
00:00:43.980It was maybe less apparent to regular Canadians in January of this year, but it was really
00:00:51.400apparent to us that the peculiar nature of the global economy during COVID had placed some very
00:01:00.040significant strains on supply chains. That was jeopardizing Canada's recovery from the COVID
00:01:07.640recession in areas like the lack of semiconductors putting real stress on our car sector. To give
00:01:17.540just one example of very specific supply chain problems that we were focused on and thinking
00:01:22.980about the second area we were really focused on um which again has moved more into what
00:01:32.420everyday people are talking about but we were focused on it already in january was we could see
00:01:39.460partly because of those strained supply chains that inflation was elevated and rising
00:01:45.860And so it was apparent, I think, to us that we were going to be moving from the COVID recession situation where the challenge was, you know, prevent the greatest downturn since the Great Depression in Canada from really taking hold and scarring the Canadian economy.
00:02:10.540that had been the preoccupation during COVID. We knew that we were moving into an environment where
00:02:17.200the challenge was reopening and elevated inflation. And how do you deal with that?
00:02:24.080And that made us particularly concerned again about the supply chains, because they posed a
00:02:28.980challenge to elevated inflation. So I would say that was kind of my finance minister budget-related
00:02:36.220set of concerns. The second economic issue that I was very focused on in December, January,
00:02:46.700November, December, January, was the U.S. Build Back Better legislation, and in particular their
00:02:55.400proposal on EV incentives. And, you know, I realized to an Ottawa kind of maybe legal community
00:03:05.460type audience, that might seem a little bit esoteric. But the reality is, and it might seem
00:03:15.280a little bit esoteric and a little bit specific, the EV incentives, as proposed by the U.S.,
00:03:23.560and that legislation made its way through the House in the fall in the U.S., I believe in November,
00:03:29.680That legislation, as proposed, would have been completely devastating to the future of the Canadian car sector.
00:03:39.100What the incentives would have done had they been passed into law as initially proposed is create very strong incentives for buying electric vehicles that were made in the U.S., not North America, just the U.S.
00:04:01.060And EVs, that's a national industry, right?
00:04:04.060We're just shifting to the production of EVs.
00:04:08.160Imagine if you are a car company and all the car companies that produce cars in Canada operate on both sides of the border.
00:04:17.160Imagine these powerful U.S. incentives are put in place, but they only apply to EVs and batteries made in the U.S.
00:04:26.160Are you going to build anything in Canada? Are you going to put any of those production lines in Canada?
00:04:34.160And, you know, these incentives, frankly, were quite intentionally designed to drive all of the building of the new fledgling EV industry into the U.S. only and to create a powerful economic disincentive to build any of that in Canada.
00:04:56.460That would have been a disaster for us because EVs are the cars of the future.
00:05:01.460And to just give you a final kind of sense of how significant this was, at the end of 2021, marrying the trade minister and I sent a letter, which we made public to the U.S., warning that Canada was prepared to retaliate at scale were this measure to be passed into law.
00:05:28.200Well, in December, in finance, we were looking at and putting the final touches on a retaliation list, because whenever there is trade retaliation, the first step is you publish the list of things you might retaliate against.
00:05:47.140We did that during the 232 challenge, shall we say, the 232 tariff challenge.
00:05:55.260The initial retaliation list that we were looking at was going to include up to $100 billion of U.S. imports into Canada.
00:06:09.500So that's to give you a sense of the scale that we judged this challenge to be at.
00:06:19.820We really didn't want a trade war. That would have been terrible for Canada. And so we were also negotiating. And we were talking, all of us, the Prime Minister with President Biden, Mary Ng with the USTR.
00:06:37.960I was speaking about it with Janet Yellen at the Treasury, and really the key person emerged as a guy called Brian Deese, who is in the White House.
00:06:50.400He is the president's economic advisor.
00:06:53.640And what we were trying to persuade Brian Deese of is the idea that, look, we understand that you want incentives for electric vehicles.
00:07:07.420we also believe in the green transition. We understand that you want U.S. workers to benefit
00:07:14.100from these incentives, but our car sector is very, very closely interconnected. A favorite line that
00:07:22.400you'll hear every single Canadian trade negotiator who ever has negotiated mentioned to the Americans
00:07:27.560on this is, a single car part can cross the border six times on the way to becoming part of a car.
00:07:34.020So we say that all the time to the Americans. And so what I said to Brian is our sectors are totally integrated. We're not asking for a free ride from the U.S. Why don't we match your incentives? And you guys have incentives. We'll have incentives, too. And both of us have incentives for North American-made EVs, thus creating a level playing field between Canada and the U.S.
00:08:02.920And frankly, a strong incentive for investment into Canada, because in that kind of an environment, Canadian-made EVs would be uniquely able to be sold into the U.S. market.
00:08:19.500So that was what we were talking about precisely at that time.
00:08:24.480And in the month of December and January, we were drafting these ideas.
00:08:30.980my department was working on it, and I was sharing them with the Treasury and with Brian Deese.
00:08:38.240And actually, at the very end of January, my department prepared for me a sort of yet another
00:08:47.580iteration of this sort of Deese note on how can we coordinate. So that was sort of a second
00:08:57.560direction of economic concern, I would even say anxiety. We knew we had to make this work
00:09:05.880coming at exactly that time. And then the final thing, which was more maybe a deputy
00:09:15.640prime minister area of focus, was Russia and Ukraine. The war hadn't started yet,
00:09:22.600But we and our allies started to get intelligence in December and in January that Russia could well be preparing to invade Ukraine.
00:09:37.100I was briefed directly at the beginning of January that the judgment was this could really happen.
00:09:46.740And again, it's happened now, so we might not fully remember how astonishing and horrifying that thought was before it actually happened.
00:10:00.220So, you know, that was a very big deal.
00:10:03.800I learned about it at the beginning of January, and the threat just kept getting greater and greater and greater.
00:10:10.760I believe NATO troops were put on alert at the end of January.
00:10:17.920And then I think the U.S. took this extraordinary step of declassifying its intelligence about Russia's plans in early February to kind of alert everyone.
00:10:30.720And I was also involved at the finance minister level, working with other finance ministers, talking to the Ukrainians about putting together sort of preemptive sanctions.
00:10:42.620If you think back to that time, the idea was we would be very explicit with Russia about the sanctions that would snap in in the event of an invasion.
00:10:55.320So that was kind of a third area I was very aware of.
00:10:58.820I thought then, and I think today, that Russia's invasion of Ukraine, which of course did ultimately happen, is the biggest challenge to Canada's national security since the Second World War.
00:11:13.740I think it's a very serious attack on Western democracies, on the rules-based international order.
00:11:21.840I took it seriously then, and I believed it was really important for Canada to be in a strong position to be able to respond.
00:12:53.280Now, that has not been perfectly honored,
00:12:57.620but if you compare the entire post-World War II period
00:13:01.380with all of human history prior to that, it's a huge change. And that has hugely enhanced the
00:13:11.300security of every country in the world. So that's number one. Number two way that Canada's security
00:13:18.880was threatened, is threatened, but I think the allied response has been strong and has strengthened
00:13:25.500in Canada, is I absolutely believe that one of Vladimir Putin's war aims, you know, his
00:13:36.300principal objective was, is to crush Ukraine, to take it over, to crush Ukrainians as a
00:13:45.920people, and to replace the democratically elected government, to make it a puppet satrapy.
00:13:55.500But he has another objective, which is to show that dictatorships work and democracies don't.
00:14:04.920There is a broader goal he has in mind, and that is, I believe, in his view, because he wants that demonstration effect.
00:14:16.540He wants to show Russians, you know, you might not like that much how things work here, but we're better than those, you know, weak, feeble, pathetic Western democracies.0.64
00:14:29.340That's sort of the message he wants to communicate with what he perceives to be his own strength.0.72
00:14:35.200and his success were he to be successful i absolutely believe would weaken western
00:14:47.300democracies writ large including our own okay um that's i think helpful context for for uh if you'll
00:14:56.980agree with me for the what was in your mind essentially as the convoy arrived in late
00:15:02.240january you've said that that dovetailed basically with your negotiations on the on the electron
00:15:07.840the electric vehicle incentives um and in the chronology you can appreciate this is the second
00:15:13.120last day of the commission's testimony so we've we've been through a lot of the chronology of
00:15:17.040what happened in those early days and i want to focus with you this morning on uh your specific
00:15:22.320involvement and um i think you you've expressed to us in the interview and and um you may agree
00:15:30.400or you may not but you started to become very actively engaged in this file in this matter
00:15:34.960around february 6th around the second sse meeting does that ring a bell that's the second weekend
00:15:42.480right is that the saturday or the sunday that would be the sunday okay um yes that's true and
00:15:48.640that's kind of consistent with how i was describing my role so i would sort of say up until that point
00:15:56.560um i was pretty much heads down we have the budget we have budget is sort of
00:16:04.16090 of the focus and then there's electric vehicles over here hope we can get a good
00:16:10.000outcome otherwise it's going to be really bad and you know i've spoken um
00:16:17.280with a lot of conviction a moment ago about the significance of the russian invasion of ukraine
00:16:23.360But I want to remind us all, at the end of January, beginning of February, it hadn't happened yet.0.88
00:16:29.260So that was just out there as a threat that I had in mind.
00:16:34.220So up until February 6th, 90% budget, EVs on one side, worried about Russia, Ukraine, hoping that we can put forward strong sanction ideas that will prevent it.
00:16:48.760But it was really budget, budget, budget.
00:16:50.480But then the second weekend of the occupation happened, and I started hearing particularly from business leaders that this was starting to be an area of concern.
00:17:08.200And so I did attend that committee meeting.
00:17:12.060And then as that week went on, I became more and more and more involved.
00:17:17.040Okay. And just to clarify, you wouldn't normally attend an SSE meeting, is that right?
00:20:17.600We have to figure out something to do.
00:20:20.740So then step two is, we're the Department of Finance.
00:20:24.920I think you've probably heard from other ministers, the instruction was, okay, everyone, take a look in your toolbox and figure out what tools are available to you to act on this.
00:20:43.500And so that's what we did. Um, and we found looking at what was in the finance toolbox, that there were basically two areas where there could be authority. Um, one was FinTrack, um, which is, uh, the center that sort of monitors financial transactions, money laundering,
00:21:12.900terrorist financial activity. And then the second was the Bank Act. And would there be
00:21:21.160authorities under the Bank Act that could be useful in resolving the situation? So that was
00:21:26.900the two areas we looked at. We looked at what the existing tools available as of that moment
00:21:35.760permitted us to do and we came to the conclusion pretty quickly that everything that could be
00:21:43.920utilized was being utilized so then we thought well is there a need to legislate
00:21:54.480and that memo outlines areas where the department said you could legislate to create this authority
00:22:03.280or you know you could legislate to create these various authorities as outlined in the memo
00:22:08.400and did you consider those viable options then um we definitely looked at them um
00:22:17.680as you know um i would say let me say a couple of things so on the fin track front um what
00:22:27.040What we concluded was, to put it in maybe kind of more regular terms, what we concluded, and this is something that finance officials had been thinking about for a while, is that basically the FinTrack monitoring authorities were appropriate for a 20th century economy, but not for a 21st century economy.
00:22:56.000that FinTrack, and I know you guys know this because you have been over this for hours and
00:23:02.600hours and hours, but maybe for people who are tuning in for the first time, FinTrack is not
00:23:10.700an enforcement agency. The job of FinTrack is to monitor what's going on, to both look into
00:23:19.640reports that it gets, and to just kind of have situational awareness and let us know what's
00:23:26.240happening in terms of illicit financial flows in Canada. I think that's a summary I would offer
00:23:31.620you of FinTrack, of FinTrack's job. What we were sort of reminded of in looking at this
00:23:40.300is FinTrack's sort of line of sight was very blinkered. They could look into what you might
00:23:47.080call the 20th century financial system, but they didn't have authority over the 21st century
00:23:54.280financial system. And by that specifically, I mean over crowdfunding and over payment platforms.
00:24:02.920So that was a lacuna. It was well known that it was a lacuna, but there hadn't been an urgency
00:24:12.280uh to act and the memo identifies this is an authority that we think fin track should have
00:24:19.560and you could legislate to create that authority subsequently as we all became fin track experts
00:24:26.600very quickly or thought we were becoming fin track experts very quickly um we understood that
00:24:34.200regulatory authority would be sufficient to grant FinTrack these additional powers.
00:24:41.800And as you know, that's what we ultimately did. So FinTrack, one area. And then second area,
00:24:48.200which is outlined in this note, is could the Bank Act be used to allow the banks to
00:25:00.760effectively freeze accounts. That's basically what the memo discusses and it discusses what
00:25:11.000would be the different authorities which would allow that. And so those were the options that
00:25:17.560were developed there. Maybe the final point worth mentioning with regard to that memo is
00:25:30.920in terms of a legislative path what we understood was it takes a long time and
00:25:40.440look it's a good thing that it takes a long time for legislation to be passed in canada
00:25:46.200um even when we're working really together and urgently and quickly and an example you know
00:25:54.200just this fall of parliament coming together understanding an urgent necessity and passing
00:25:59.960legislation uh was the bill uh that granted us the authority to double the gst credit
00:26:08.360which we proposed as soon as we returned from the summer recess it gained all party support
00:26:15.160and it speeded through and you know we got we proposed it in the middle of september
00:26:21.560and we got the first checks out to canadians on november 5th
00:26:25.4805th. In parliamentary legislative time, that is a sprint. And that was good, because we know that
00:26:33.200Canadians need inflation relief. But that's really, really fast, from September 19th to November 5th.
00:26:41.320So, and that's just one real-life example where there was urgent action by Parliament
00:26:46.660and the Senate, and the House and the Senate. And so, while this, we looked at what the
00:26:54.460legislative options could be, we quickly understood that they would take a long time.
00:27:02.600So skipping way ahead now, but so the conclusion in the end was you did not have time to legislate.
00:27:09.360Not that, I mean, I think the short answer is yes. You know, basically the legislative timelines
00:27:16.140And the snowballing, sort of exponentially damaging impact on the economy, they were not, the legislative timeline was not appropriate to the scale and speed with which the damage was mounting.
00:27:35.660You mentioned in the course of that that you were having conversations and you were hearing
00:27:42.860from various stakeholders and business people, et cetera. So I want to spend a moment, and also
00:27:48.320U.S. officials, obviously, so I want to spend, not actually a moment, a little while going through
00:27:53.960some of the conversations that you were having. And I think the best way to do this is with the
00:27:58.740assistance of some of the documents that we have that may remind you of the specific conversations.
00:28:03.900So we'll start with, Mr. Clerk, SSM.CAN.401255.
00:28:11.240So this is a summary of your conversation while it's being pulled up with Mr. Deese, Brian Deese, on February 10th.
00:28:18.800And you've already explained to us who Mr. Deese is, but just maybe go over that again.
00:28:25.020So would you say he's the senior economic policy advisor to the president?
00:28:30.480100%. I would say when it comes to U.S. executive economic authority, the most important person is President Biden, obviously, and his most important advisor is Brian Deese. And then, of course, Secretary Yellen is a very significant and, you know, frankly, brilliant figure and player in all of this.
00:28:58.100And we were, maybe just as a quick footnote, I don't want to offend the Treasury, in talking about these EV incentives, we were very much in touch with the Treasury, both with Secretary Yellen and with David Lipton, who worked in the Treasury.
00:29:15.200They were very aware of our proposals, too, and supportive of them.
00:29:18.980Is Mr. Deese someone who talks to you often?
00:29:26.340um what was striking to me about the conversation i had with him on the 10th of february is
00:29:34.740he is a person who is very hard for canadians to get a hold of um and actually in the fall
00:29:45.400when we realized how significant the ev issue was and when in my conversations with the treasury
00:29:54.380I really learned how important the White House and Brian Deese were and also our ambassador
00:30:00.980Kirsten Hillman sort of identified to us Brian Deese is the guy you have to talk to
00:30:05.260and it was a real effort to develop a relationship and a dialogue with him
00:30:14.320and an effort to get it always an effort to get him on the phone to get him to answer
00:30:21.160an email. And I don't mean that in any way to slight him. He's an extremely busy person.
00:30:27.740In a way, the fact that it's hard for Canada to reach him is a good thing. It means we're a peace
00:30:35.040order and good government country, and they're not very worried about us. And so what was really
00:30:41.520striking to me was how quickly he got on the phone with me on that Thursday. It was instant.
00:30:49.940and while in some ways you know that was in as a practical matter that was good but it gave me a
00:30:58.340measure of how worried the white house was about this okay so let's look at the uh the summary of
00:31:05.940the conversation you had with them mr clerk if you can just scroll down to um so we can see that
00:31:11.780entire part of the email yeah okay so starting february 10th so this is you mr freeland writing
00:31:18.660and say he called me they are very very very worried if this is not sorted out in the next 12
00:31:25.940hours all of their northeastern car plants will shut down he said that he supposed that this
00:31:31.220proved the point that we made previously to them about how closely integrated our economies are
00:31:37.220he did not seem to see this as a positive he asked what he could do to help us i said tow trucks
00:31:43.700make your point about banning travel to the U.S. for participants public, arrange a call between
00:31:51.020the PM and the president, and then you say he was aware of points one and two, tow trucks and
00:31:57.680banning travel, and said he would push on both. He was supportive of the idea of a call and would
00:32:02.700try to make it happen. So can you flesh out that summary a little bit of what Mr. Deese was
00:32:08.460conveying to you yeah i mean you know i think can you move up a little bit just you know i think the
00:32:16.680point the second sentence he said that this proved the point about how integrated our economies are
00:32:22.940and he didn't seem to see this as a positive um he brought that up and you have to kind of bear in
00:32:29.400mind i have been bugging the guy and canadians have been nagging americans since the fall and
00:32:35.180we've been saying guys you don't understand canada you don't understand how integrated our
00:32:39.900economies are this approach you're taking to the evs it's completely counterproductive for you
00:32:45.960because we work so closely together those parts they cross the border six times we've been saying
00:32:51.240this over and over and so he comes back at me and he says yeah okay like you've made the point
00:32:58.780We get it. And it was a surprise to him, actually, the extent to which their car industry was dependent on the trade with Canada.
00:33:10.500But that was a dangerous moment for Canada, I felt, very, very dangerous, because the US then and now, as part of their own soft landing from COVID, something that is happening there is a real move to protect the supply chains of the United States.
00:33:38.660The same supply chain challenges I was talking about earlier as affecting Canada affected the U.S., and I think we have all seen a very strong push this year by Americans to insulate their supply chains, particularly from China.
00:33:57.680are very worried about the semiconductors, but more broadly, COVID brought alive to them the
00:34:04.840vulnerability of their supply chains. And this was so worrying to me because I could see really
00:34:13.060for the first time ever, the Americans having this amber light flashing in Canada and this amber
00:34:20.740light that said to them, you know what? The Canadian supply chain could be a vulnerability
00:34:25.040to. And that's a problem for us because there are plenty of Americans, both Democrats and
00:34:32.360Republicans, who would love any excuse to impose more protectionist measures on us. So that line
00:34:41.360to me, it jumped out at me. It made me really, really worried. And I understood, I really
00:34:51.100understood at that point that the danger wasn't just the danger of the, it wasn't just the
00:35:01.920immediate damage. It wasn't just the immediate harm. It wasn't, oh, you know, this plant
00:35:08.300loses four days of operation. The danger was, were we in the process as a country of doing
00:35:18.360long-term and possibly irreparable harm to our trading relationship with the United States.
00:35:27.140And it's also important to understand that our trading relationship with the United States,
00:35:32.780it's not just about Canada-US trade. It's about Canada's attractiveness as a destination
00:35:40.320for all foreign investments. Japanese car companies invest in Canada because of our
00:35:47.620trading relationship with the United States. So that one conversation was a seminal one for me.
00:35:54.380And it was a moment when I realized, as a country, somehow, we had to find a way to bring this to an
00:36:01.360end. And Mr. Clerk, if you just scroll up a bit, so we can see the next email there.
00:36:08.860You say one final thing, he'd like to talk to me again tomorrow, every day until this is sorted
00:36:15.000it out. Did that end up happening? It didn't, because we sorted it out. So, you know, that was
00:36:23.080a conversation on the Thursday night. You'll see from that conversation that I asked Brian to help
00:36:31.240organize a call between the Prime Minister and the President. And again, that's a very hard thing to
00:36:38.160set up. The President of the United States, the most important elected leader in the world,
00:36:43.600very very busy guy he also by the way was involved in this potential russian invasion of ukraine very
00:36:52.460involved and yet i asked for the call that thursday i can't remember exactly when my call with brian
00:37:00.980happened thursday sort of early evening i think late afternoon early evening the president and
00:37:06.260prime minister spoke on the friday um and then as you know we made an announcement on the monday
00:37:16.980okay um just gonna take you back for one second mr clerk can you pull that one down and go
00:37:22.820to ssm.can four zeros 4175 um so mr freeland this is a text exchange you had on the 11th with brian
00:37:32.420Clough of the PMO. Yeah. Okay. And that is, that's the following day then. That's the Friday.
00:37:39.800Yeah. That's the Friday. And scroll down a little bit, please, Mr. Clerk, until we see Windsor was
00:37:44.120supposed to do there. So you say, Windsor was supposed to happen today. This can't go on.
00:37:49.360We need to show some federal leadership too. So does that go back to what you were just saying?
00:37:55.020At that point, you had decided something had to be done and quickly. Yes. And also,
00:38:03.380you know that point windsor was supposed to be today um i think it's worth dwelling on for a
00:38:10.420moment because it speaks you know to our experience in the eye of the storm which is that
00:38:21.220we continued to hear that action was going to be taken, and things were going to come to an end.
00:38:33.620And it seemed that that wasn't happening. And at the same time, what seemed to be happening
00:38:41.220is we had this metastasizing of the illegal blockades and occupations. So there were sort of,
00:38:48.420you know copycat action across the country sort of a whack-a-mole and that was also worrying
00:38:57.460okay um we'll go back to the stakeholders now mr clerk
00:39:00.740thank you you can take that one down and pull up ssm.can four zeros 4138
00:39:10.740so this is a text exchange with um mr flavio volpe yes explain who mr volpe is yeah um
00:39:18.420Flavio is the head of the car parts group.
00:39:27.540He is a real leader in the car sector.
00:39:33.000I got to know him well during the NAFTA negotiations, where we had sort of a real Team Canada approach,
00:39:43.060and autos were a very important issue.
00:39:45.560And so Flavio and his constituent companies and the trade negotiators and I worked really closely together on the specifics of the deal.
00:39:57.080And Flavio also, you know, significantly, I think, for this exchange, Flavio was very aware of the EV issue.
00:40:07.920And if I have seemed to you guys today to be kind of weirdly obsessed with EVs and U.S. EV incentives, I would urge you to spend five minutes talking to Flavio, and you will understand how really kind of life or death for the car sector it is.
00:40:30.680So he was very, very steeped in all of these issues.
00:40:37.920Okay, so if we just look at the text exchange, he says to you on the 9th, this is the ambassador bridge debacle is embarrassing. And then you say, let's talk tomorrow. I would love to get your ideas. I'm worried too. So the text then skips to February 14th. But we don't necessarily need to go. Well, actually, let's go there.
00:40:56.100So this is at the point, I guess, where the Emergencies Act has been involved, and you say, express to him, I know how devastating this has been, and it's been determined that we need to take strong action.
00:41:08.260We didn't save NAFTA, only to have it undermined.
00:41:12.060Can you tell us about the conversations you had sort of in between these texts?
00:41:15.980not really because i don't have sort of specific memory of actual things we said
00:41:24.980and i can't even tell you a hundred percent whether we spoke on the phone or just exchange
00:41:31.120texts so i don't want to pretend to knowledge of that um but you know i can give you some context
00:41:39.080for that view that I expressed there, which I do remember expressing,
00:41:45.960which I think is consistent with what I've been saying earlier this morning,
00:41:52.940that all of us who had been involved in the NAFTA negotiation,
00:42:55.200that this might seem esoteric to lawyers. And what I really want to say is,
00:43:06.180you know, especially for me personally, the NAFTA negotiations were kind of a bonding experience,
00:43:14.100just for me as an elected Canadian leader, with everyone who works in a Canadian car plant,
00:43:21.480or a Canadian car park plant, with Canadian steel workers, with Canadian aluminum workers,
00:43:29.740with people in Regina who make pipes. I knew during the NAFTA negotiations,
00:43:36.260their jobs were on the line, and they knew it too. And all of those people across Canada,
00:43:43.780they were so great. Like, they were prepared for Canada to take a strong position. They were
00:43:50.520prepared for the U.S. president to insult us. They were prepared for us to take really strong
00:43:57.880retaliatory actions against the 232 tariffs because they knew how important it was for them
00:44:04.420and their jobs and their lives. And what that text exchange with Flavio represents is me sharing with
00:44:13.480something I know he felt too, which is this really important market access that we managed to secure just a couple of years ago. It's constantly under threat. Witness the EV incentives. And it's under threat right now. And we just, we can't let Canada be devastated this way.
00:44:35.260Okay, you mentioned one of the steel guys. Would that be Alan Kestenbaum?
00:44:40.760Okay, well, let's pull up then SSM.can404171. This is a text exchange you had with him on the 11th. And what he has to say is a little bit different, I think. So, we're going through.
00:44:56.980so he sends you this and he says hi christy i hope you're well i know you have your hands full
00:45:07.620i'm not saying anything you probably don't know but this is really impacting us badly now like
00:45:13.500many others and i fear that even worse the long-term consequences of shutting down auto
00:45:18.560plants because of lack of canadian parts will only convince the auto companies on shore even more
00:45:24.940and relocate supplies. This is a bit annoying because it's in three separate documents. So,
00:45:30.400Mr. Clerk, can you take that one down and put up SSM.can404349?
00:45:45.300Record time. Okay, so that's a continuation of the text. Relocate supplies and our customers to
00:45:51.780usa i know it sucks politically to back down and reverse course but it does really pay to carry on
00:45:58.100the policy and or does it really pay i'm sorry to carry on the policy in support of a mandate for a
00:46:03.460vaccine that doesn't prevent the spread of omicron and which seems to be vanishing naturally anyway
00:46:09.060moreover this could create a resurgence of the right wing just like it did in america
00:46:13.700anyway i know this is a massive headache for you but it could be solved by retreating and letting
00:46:18.020it fade away from everyone's memory just sharing my views hoping the spreading disruption gets
00:46:23.460resolved quickly okay and then the next one mr clerk is your response which is ssm.can404170
00:46:41.540and that response is dear alan thank you for reaching out i share your concerns
00:46:46.180we are determined to bring this to an end quickly and we will so what mr kastenbaum is expressing
00:46:51.620there is the same concern and a suggestion that the solution to it is to to alter the public
00:46:56.820health measures um so what was your reaction to that for me the salient point was the first part
00:47:05.300of his message and you know i think what he says there um and he is runs stelco in hamilton uh he
00:47:15.860is american though and u.s based um what he was saying at the beginning about on shoring and
00:47:24.420relocating to the u.s that's what i was talking about earlier today and i kind of highlight that
00:47:31.940for all of us here just to kind of make clear to everyone that for people whose bread and butter
00:47:44.420whose livelihoods were in the U.S. trade-exposed industries, their immediate conclusion, you
00:47:53.440didn't have to think about it, the immediate conclusion from the blockage of trade was
00:48:00.000the Americans are going to respond by cutting us out.
00:48:02.620Um, and then in terms of Alan's proposal, um, I didn't debate it with him.
00:48:14.600Um, I don't think that it's, I think that the relevant information for me from him wasn't for him to tell me what the right solution was.
00:48:28.340the relevant information for me from him was for him pointing out to me that this was a really big
00:48:35.420problem and it had to get resolved. Okay. We're now going to skip to one of the very,
00:48:42.920very crucial days in all of this chronology, which is the 13th of February.
00:48:50.320I understand that on that day, you had a call with a number of Canadian bank CEOs. And I think,
00:48:56.900correct me if I'm wrong, but the chronology of that day in your world goes call with the bank
00:49:01.840afternoon around 1 p.m., IRG meeting mid-afternoon, and then cabinet meeting at 8.30 at night. Does
00:49:10.700that sound right? It does. I'm just referring to my own chronology because there was one other
00:49:17.020meeting which is relevant, which is at 2 o'clock that day, I had a national security meeting on
00:49:24.620Ukraine. Okay, fair enough. So just to give you guys a sense of how overlapping the issues were.
00:49:31.120Okay. Mr. Clerk, if you can pull up a document. I've lost my document. SSM.CAN 1281, please.
00:49:40.740okay so we're on the 13th now um and this is an email from merit meredith tyler tyler meredith
00:49:56.180tyler meredith i'm sorry can you tell us who tyler meredith is um he doesn't work in my office
00:50:02.420anymore um but he was i think his title was um strategic policy advisor a senior policy person
00:50:13.380okay um and he writes in the time stamp of this email it's that wonky greenwich meantime thing so
00:50:19.860that means around 11 30 in the morning i believe um he writes hi christia everyone is confirmed for
00:50:26.7401 p.m. a list of ceos is at the bottom of this email a couple of points of background for the
00:50:33.220call the institutions are all aware we convened a call with the canadian bankers association
00:50:39.780earlier this week just to check in on whether they had any advice for us in light of recent events
00:50:45.700the message from industry mostly speaking for that probably means from their legal counsel at the
00:50:51.460time was we've got this under control and generally feel comfortable with the current regime
00:50:58.340uh then he says privately certain banks have have
00:51:03.540while looking at bringing in fat platforms under aml that's anti-money laundering proceeds of crime
00:51:10.820uh limiting access to payment processors and then the last bullet is we haven't given them
00:51:18.420any indication about what's under consideration so in all of that it's actually the first bullet
00:51:23.380that i want to focus on most which was this message that what had been heard from industry
00:51:28.260prior to this was we got this uh it's under control we're comfortable with what's happening
00:51:33.780um is that something that you were aware of that you heard before so i i mean this was an extremely
00:51:42.180busy time that week tons and tons of stuff was happening i had a lot of information flowing
00:51:50.420through my phone and my inbox and i can't confirm one way or the other whether i read this specific
00:51:58.820note from tyler so i can't comment on this specific email um what i can say is that we can't and
00:52:08.980you've seen sort of the disclosure of all of the things that all of the messages that i sent and
00:52:14.580things i wrote down um what i can also say is that weekend and i can't tell you the specific times
00:52:22.580i had two one-on-one phone calls with bank ceos with the ceo of bmo and the ceo of td
00:52:30.500I believe at their request. That was unusual. I do sort of as a matter of course, meet with the bank
00:52:41.940CEOs as a group every six months. And obviously, they can and should have access to me like they
00:52:51.060should be able to meet with me. But it usually takes a while for people's calendars to work
00:52:57.700um and for the meeting to be arranged and it's highly unusual for them to want to talk to me
00:53:04.180on a weekend so that was significant to me that they wanted to talk to me on the phone
00:53:10.940I spoke to both of them I am sure pretty sure well 90 sure I spoke to both of them
00:53:19.000before this call at 1 p.m. on Sunday with all of the bank CEOs.
00:53:25.400And each of them expressed a high degree of concern about the damage being done to Canada and the Canadian economy,
00:53:34.580which was then reflected in the group call.
00:53:37.560Okay, so let's have a look at that group call now.
00:57:07.380not only in canada but also in the united states if they were being seen to be taking
00:57:14.100a politicized position i didn't think that was their responsibility i thought it was
00:57:19.060the responsibility of the government to make judgments about this okay um the next concern
00:57:27.460highlighted there is uh canada's reputation is indeed at risk we need to show the world proactively
00:57:33.700that we won't let this happen again our trade corridors will remain open we should think about
00:57:39.060putting the military in place to keep the border crossings moving even after the protesters removed
00:57:44.420to send a clear signal so this is about as strong a suggestions you can get bring in the military
00:57:51.060um and your response though here is is couldn't agree more with those points we must make clear
00:57:56.100that one we won't resolve this and two we won't let this happen again um so can you explain your
00:58:03.380response there and were you were you agreeing there that bringing the military to to patrol
00:58:09.460the borders was a viable option no it was i mean look if you look at that conversation
00:58:16.340people raised lots of different points in their commentary and i didn't respond to every single
00:58:25.220one um just as in my previous exchange with alan uh kestelbaum our stelco guy i acknowledged his
00:58:32.980concern but i didn't really address his uh public health measure point um my point there was as i
00:58:42.980said in my follow-up that what we need to do is as a government one resolve it to be clear it's not
00:58:49.540going to happen again and you know from my perspective i wanted the reason i convened that
00:58:59.220call and again probably worth highlighting it is highly unusual for the ceos like highly highly
00:59:08.180like never i mean i've only been finance minister for two years but it hasn't happened before and i
00:59:14.900hope it will never happen again um for the ceos of all of canada's banks on you know a couple of
00:59:24.100hours notice on a sunday afternoon to come together on a zoom call with the finance minister
00:59:32.900and deputy minister of finance it's very very unusual for them to find the time to do that
00:59:41.060i'm right now trying to organize a meeting with them my kind of every six month meeting
00:59:46.660for December. And it's the kind of thing that we sort of organize four to six weeks in advance
00:59:55.240because these are all busy people. So that's kind of just worth mentioning, shows their degree of
01:00:01.460concern and anxiety. Value for me of this meeting, why did I want to have it? What did I want to get
01:00:07.940out of it. Two things. One, I wanted to hear from them. How worried were they? By that point,
01:00:18.320I was really worried. But we were contemplating, as you know, really serious action. And I needed
01:00:28.500to hear directly myself from the leaders of Canada's financial institutions. Did they share
01:00:38.100my level of concern? That was a very important proof point for me. So that was kind of number
01:00:44.760one. And it was important for me, for them, it was important for it to be a meeting of everyone
01:00:52.160because that's also a measure of how worried were they, right? Are you prepared to say these things
01:01:00.540to a group of your peers? Is that, that's, you judge your words carefully there, and you should.
01:01:08.520So number one, am I right to be as worried as I am? What do these guys think? And then number
01:01:15.900two concern was um okay we do have some tools are the how are the tools working the people who have
01:01:25.420these tools who are in charge of using them how are they finding they work in practice those were
01:01:31.660the two things i tried to get out of the call and it was a very useful call in terms of answering
01:01:37.740both those questions so maybe the next extract i wanted to point out goes to that second point um
01:01:43.260mr kirk can you scroll down a little there we go so this is someone saying we need court orders to
01:01:49.500act we'd identified an individual who was an organizer who had several hundred thousand
01:01:54.860dollars move into their accounts we flagged it to fin track started work on a court order and
01:02:00.620because of the delay of four hours the money was withdrawn before we could stop it and you
01:02:05.820stay there you you asked was the problem there a gap in the current system or that it moves too
01:02:10.940slowly and and reply is four hours was too long um and then i think underneath that there's
01:02:19.020and let's be clear this that's the the the reference you were talking about and let's
01:02:23.100be clear they will all eventually move to crypto okay um a little lower down mr clerk bottom of
01:02:30.860that page you mentioned reputational risk that's something you've talked about several times here's
01:02:35.900one of those i think quotable quotes agree with my colleagues the reputation of canada is at risk
01:02:41.500just spent a lot of time in the u.s last week and we would be called a quote unquote joke by people
01:02:46.860i had one investor say i won't invest another red cent in your banana republic in canada
01:02:52.620that adds to an already tough investment perspective on canada did that have any
01:02:57.180impact on that the banana republic idea i mean it's hyperbolic well i mean i believe
01:03:05.900And subsequent conversations underscore, you know, if I were an editor, I would ask my, if I were still an editor, I would ask my reporter, is that a direct quote or are you paraphrasing?
01:03:20.160And I think subsequent conversations we had show that was a direct quote and a direct quote that a Canadian bank CEO was relaying to me that he had heard on an investment trip to the U.S. from someone who he wanted to invest in Canada.
01:03:44.220He was trying to persuade someone to invest in Canada. And that was a heart-stopping quote for me. That was really a moment when, having already been concerned, when I really understood that what was happening was profoundly jeopardizing the Canadian economy.
01:04:12.800and putting investment in Canada at risk.
01:04:17.640And, you know, I don't expect you guys to have read our April budget,
01:04:21.960but one of the things we identify in the April budget
01:04:24.740is underinvestment as being a core problem for the Canadian economy,
01:05:31.460I had at that moment a very profound duty to Canadians
01:05:36.460duty to Canadians, to stand up for them. And I'm surprised that I'm getting emotional, but
01:05:46.520I really felt it. And I felt like, you know, the Canadian economy, it could seem like this
01:05:57.100amorphous thing, investment, it can seem amorphous, EV incentives, amorphous. But when I heard that,
01:06:04.620i realized i'm the finance minister i'm the deputy prime minister i have to protect canadians i have
01:06:12.600to protect their well-being it's being really really damaged so yeah that was a meaningful
01:06:19.060conversation for me and that was a very memorable uh quote and for sure a spur to action so maybe
01:06:27.020in the end not so hyperbolic in your view well look i i can't comment on what that investor was
01:06:35.720thinking it's second hand right that was what a bank ceo reported to me an investor said to him
01:06:42.340but it is my job to ultimately what's the job of the finance minister to make sure canadians have
01:06:51.300good life right and part of how canadians have a good life is capital is invested into the canadian
01:07:00.900economy so they have well-paying jobs and what that quote said is something is happening in canada
01:07:08.740that very profoundly um hurts canadian jobs and if you go down a little bit you'll see
01:07:18.180um and i didn't remember this until i reread this note you know i tried to kind of rally the troops
01:07:24.180there in the call i tried to say um i can show you the line um scroll down yeah please just you can
01:07:34.020just direct so this is it if the investor you speak of is american i sort of said what i was
01:07:39.060trying to do was rally the bank ceos and kind of say to them you guys are playing for team canada
01:07:45.940Don't take that from your investors. Don't let guys, you know, I don't know if it was New York
01:07:50.400or wherever, but like, don't let those guys say to you that Canada is a banana republic. We're
01:07:56.100a great country. That's what I was trying to say there. And I was trying to say, sure, we have our
01:08:00.640problems. But, you know, we, as I say there, our report card looks not too shabby. I wanted the
01:08:09.800CEOs to have a confidence in Canada and the Canadian economy so that they could relay that
01:08:17.140to investors. So, you know, I put up a good, I think, anyway, my objective was to imbue them
01:08:26.940with confidence because the confidence they project is important for Canada. But when I
01:08:33.420turned the zoom off i thought wow this is really serious okay um the last thing i want to take you
01:08:41.260to before we put this document down is that just last little paragraph there that just came up on
01:08:46.700the screen you say i am very resolute in ending this occupation of our democracy but i will never
01:08:53.820support negotiating with those who held our democracy hostage no good thing comes of that
01:08:59.980can you explain that comment you will never never uh sanction or never support negotiating
01:09:05.180with those who hold our democracy hostage um i think it's pretty self-explanatory um
01:09:12.620i don't think it's healthy for a democracy for any democracy um for uh policy to be made
01:09:24.780you know, at gunpoint, if you will. And that really also devalues the views and the contributions
01:09:38.780of all Canadians who express their political views and their political preferences
01:09:46.100in different ways, for example, by voting. So, yeah.
01:09:51.980Were you referring there to the vaccine mandates, to public health measures, or more generally?
01:09:57.340Yeah, I think, I mean, again, I don't have a sort of photographic or a video memory of exactly how that conversation evolved.
01:10:09.720And in fact, I didn't remember saying this until I read it again, but I'm sure that's a faithful account.
01:10:15.640having read the note having read this note what i think i was referring to is a comment made
01:10:23.300earlier in the conversation suggesting that the solution to this was a change in policy on
01:10:30.960vaccines that's what i think i was responding to okay um so we're going to leave the call now
01:10:38.800Mr. Clerk, you can take that document down and talk about the economic impact of the protests and the blockades as you saw it and what you conveyed to your colleagues on that front.
01:10:52.160So last week when your department officials were here, we went through in some detail the initial assessment they prepared on February 10th and also the eventual February 22nd economic analysis.
01:11:05.800So we're not going to go through that in detail this morning.
01:11:08.800But what I would like to take you to is, actually, this is SSM.CAN 5095.
01:11:26.080These are the minutes of the February 13th IRG.
01:11:29.720So we're still on the same day here, February 13th.
01:11:32.340And that was, I believe it was around, what was the time of the IRG again?
01:11:36.400the early evening around four o'clock okay it says right there four o'clock yeah thank you
01:11:41.460i was looking my paper not at the screen four o'clock so in between you had the bank call then
01:11:46.660you had the ukraine call that we learned about and then four o'clock is the irg and if you scroll
01:11:51.620down to page six please mr clerk rotate there so you're reporting to the irg on um the economic
01:12:02.880impact. And you say the minister highlighted ongoing economic losses of 0.1% to 0.2% of the
01:12:11.740GDP for every week the blockades continue. Now, we know at this point that that didn't come from
01:12:17.180an internal Department of Finance analysis. I believe you were referring to something that
01:12:21.740had been reported in a Bloomberg article. Is that right? A Bloomberg economic analysis.
01:12:25.640And it was also fresh in my mind because in that bank CEO conversation, that number was also referred to by one of the CEOs.
01:12:39.160So I was aware of that Bloomberg economic analysis, and I was also aware that on the street, that was the number that Canadian business leaders and international investors were seeing and citing.
01:12:57.480So on the street, you mean on Bay Street?
01:13:00.100On Bay Street and probably on Wall Street, too.
01:13:02.260Okay. Did you explain to your colleagues at the IRG the source of this number?
01:13:07.760I cannot recall whether I did or not, but my, yeah, so I can't remember. But, you know, it was a very busy time. A lot of people were speaking.
01:13:20.900Um, my objective was in a succinct way to convey to my colleagues who aren't responsible for the economy, um, that this was a really serious economic impact.
01:13:37.900impact so i think that it was possible um you know say you're a cabinet minister
01:13:46.780you don't have principally economic responsibilities you might be seeing this
01:13:51.980mostly as about you know damage to ottawa shopkeepers and that's really serious i don't
01:14:00.540want to understate the human toll of that um but what i wanted to communicate was this
01:14:11.740it this is getting to have a macro impact that will be material on the canadian economy and the
01:14:22.700only other thing that i would say is you know with hindsight if anything i feel that number i i feel
01:14:33.660that that statement if that's all i said there i feel that statement understated the possible
01:14:40.620impact because the real challenge was it was exponential so as it happened that trade blockade
01:14:50.540was effectively a week-long thing and that's what statistics ended up recording but had it gone on
01:15:00.300then you would have seen not an arithmetic adding up the damage of week plus week plus week
01:15:06.860i think what you would have seen and why this really rose to the level of a profound threat
01:15:14.460to canada's economy was the exponential nature of it that the longer it went on the greater threat
01:15:23.340that the us would lose faith in us and our trading relationship would be irreparably damaged the
01:15:29.980longer it went on the greater the threat that foreign investors would write off canada okay
01:15:36.780um so obviously that was a concern that you were expressing to your cabinet colleagues that day
01:15:43.060Probably more clearly to you right now than I did then, but I think I did communicate to them. I was really worried.
01:15:48.940Okay, so the overall economic impact, both near-term and long-term. We can take that down now. Thank you, Mr. Clerk.
01:15:56.720The next topic I want to address with you is another concern that was being expressed around this time, which is the issue of foreign funding and foreign influence and money flowing largely, I think, up from the U.S. to fund the convoy.
01:16:15.800So, Mr. Clerk, can you pull up, please, SSM.can401846?
01:16:26.720So this is an after-the-fact, not quite after-the-fact, but certainly after the invocation of the Emergencies Act discussion that you're having with your departmental officials.
01:16:43.300And if we scroll down a little bit, please, Mr. Clerk, keep going. I'll let you know when to stop.
01:16:49.960keep going up there we go so this is a question that you've posed to your officials
01:16:59.800and the question is and do we have any info on foreign donations and the response that comes back
01:17:05.900is we do not have any information on foreign donations that entered our Canadian financial
01:17:10.760systems it is possible that FinTrack CSIS or the RCMP possess information on foreign donations
01:17:17.880but that information is not shared with the Department of Finance.
01:17:21.840So is it fair to say that at the points at which foreign influence,
01:17:26.580foreign donations were being talked about,
01:17:28.900the government wasn't actually in possession of information to corroborate that?
01:17:38.520What I would say is a couple of things.
01:17:42.300One of the things that this occupation and the blockades really brought to our attention was how little official insight we had to crowdfunding and payment platforms, how little we knew for sure about what was going on there.
01:18:12.300And we've talked about that, and we have since acted on a permanent basis to correct that.
01:18:22.280There was very good reason to believe, and in fact, the subsequent report that the commission did that I thought was very good on foreign donations documents in a lot of detail that there were foreign donations coming in to support the convoy.
01:18:52.280And so, you know, that was happening. Our own systems were weak at officially picking that up and slow. And quite rightly, actually, there are a lot of checks and balances within the Canadian system about what finance specifically learns, right?
01:19:21.340Because law enforcement and finance operate in different silos, and certainly elected ministers and law enforcement have a lot of silos between them, and I think that's a good thing.
01:19:39.020So, yeah, so that would be my understanding of the situation.
01:19:48.680so to summarize that would it be fair to say you were operating a with incomplete information at
01:19:56.040that i would yeah i would 100 say that and the other thing i would say is you know we
01:20:02.600were operating in the fog of war um and we things were moving very quickly in real life
01:20:15.160on the ground. We had to operate based on the best possible information we could get at every
01:20:24.920single moment. And sometimes that meant using open source information. It didn't always mean
01:20:34.360relying on official government information and analysis that came through the finance channels.
01:20:42.920And I feel, you know, not only comfortable doing that, but that that's the right thing to do.
01:20:53.920to do. In a fast moving hour by hour situation like this, you have to gather information
01:21:04.020from a lot of different sources, reliable sources. But I believe that's the responsibility
01:21:13.780of an elected minister. And if you don't do that, my experience in government has been,
01:21:22.120You know, quite rightly, stuff that you officially get through official channels as a minister, I don't know, it's like flour that has been sifted many, many times.
01:21:37.480It's gone through a lot of different hands and there have been a lot of different checks on it.
01:21:42.900That's a good thing because it has, you know, Government of Canada stamp of approval.
01:21:47.640And I think it's really good for us to have those systems.
01:21:50.140But at the same time, I think to do your job as a minister, you have to be aware of and actively seek out other sources of information, including open source sources of information.
01:22:09.880And I think you have to hear some things for yourself. That's, for example, why, for me, having that call with the banks directly was really, really important. And I wasn't just going to rely on other people telling me what they were hearing.
01:22:24.600Okay. So the last thing I want to take you to on this point is SSM.can403807, please, Mr. Clerk.
01:22:39.880so this is a draft minister freeland of of um the section 58 explanation that was reported
01:22:52.200to parliament i'm sure you're familiar with that as we all are in this room right now
01:22:56.120um if we scroll down to page eight please mr clerk
01:23:02.360bottom of the page i believe okay yeah sorry here we go so under
01:23:07.880item number six there roman numeral um this is a paragraph in the draft or a bullet point in the
01:23:14.360draft that says there is credible evidence that significant amounts of funding for the protests
01:23:19.560come from sources outside of canada which raises concerns about foreign interference in canadian
01:23:25.320affairs and questions whether they represent threats to the security of canada and the comment
01:23:31.160made on that underneath it is anecdotal reports of of donations from outside canada to support
01:23:38.200the protesters were given credence when on february 13th hackers of the crowdfunding website give send
01:23:44.040go released hack data and it goes on to explain what happened there but that that bullet point
01:23:50.120paragraph there there is credible evidence that significant amount of funding come from sources
01:23:56.040outside canada was removed from the eventual section 58 explanation uh were you aware of
01:24:01.880that and i i wasn't part of that whole process okay um and do you have any comment on that at
01:24:08.600this point i mean that i wasn't part of that process and of the drafting of all of that and
01:24:18.040And finance was not, we weren't the people responsible for looking at that aspect of what was going on.
01:24:32.780And, you know, as my previous comments have kind of underscored, I think my primary concern and anxiety around this was about the economic impact.
01:24:48.040And we've talked about that at some length, but I felt my job was in the cabinet and as a team mate with my colleagues.
01:25:01.840What were they relying on me as the Minister of Finance to do?
01:25:05.200They were relying on me to figure out and communicate to them how big is the economic problem.
01:25:14.380And then they were relying on me to figure out and communicate to them, look, finance guys, are you doing your job here? Are you awake? Are you using all the possible tools you have to stop the problem?
01:25:29.640That was my job number two. And then job number three is, okay, if you think it's a really big problem, which we did, if you think you're using all the tools which currently exist, which we did, number three, do you have any ideas? Is there anything in the finance toolbox that could be devised that would help? That was how I understood finance's job.
01:25:55.780Okay, so this would be more law enforcement slash intelligence area.
01:26:00.780Okay. We can take that one down, Mr. Clerk, and move on to, which sort of goes back to what you were just addressing, Minister Freeland, what do we do about this?
01:26:14.720So the development and the implementation of the emergency economic measures order.
01:26:19.840So, again, we've heard at this point quite a bit about the orders and about what was done with them.
01:26:27.200So, I want to take you to a few specific concerns that have been expressed about them.
01:26:32.240The first one being that the EMA was overbroad in the sense that it might capture individuals who are not really directly involved in the protests,
01:26:41.260but people who donated to the protests and or have adverse effects on family members.
01:26:47.340You know, if you freeze someone's bank account, it may be a spouse or a child or someone else who suffers. So my first question was, was that, is that a concern that you were aware of? Is that a concern that you had? And is that a concern that you felt was it properly addressed with the measures that were enacted?
01:27:07.740okay that's a lot of questions um but it's i mean that is kind of i would say core you're getting at
01:27:20.140some core things we grappled with beforehand during the time the measures were in force
01:27:27.660and in our reflections afterwards um and i want to start by saying
01:27:33.100something that I was really, really worried about and extremely conscious of the whole time
01:27:40.740was, you know, I've talked a lot about my profound conviction that Canada was in economic jeopardy.
01:27:52.360But then as we were talking about, okay, what can we do about it? I had probably an equally
01:28:00.660profound, and even emotional concern of we don't want anybody to get hurt. And one of my colleagues
01:28:12.120said to me in our conversation about all of this, as you know, we had, we were talking constantly,
01:28:20.900and I was sort of saying, we really have to act, something has to be done. And I remember a
01:28:26.000holly saying to me my nightmare is blood on the face of a child and i remember that very clearly
01:28:35.200because i was worried about that and i really was conscious that yes we had to end this
01:28:48.240but it was so important for it to be ended peacefully without anybody being hurt
01:28:55.200So that was a hugely important objective for me.
01:29:02.200I didn't want to be a person responsible for making Canada a place where people, and you have heard by now there were reports of children, would actually get hurt in our efforts to protect the country.
01:29:21.200that that was wrong and i felt so strongly we had to look for ways to resolve this yes that was urgent
01:29:29.760but not physically hurting anyone and look especially not a child but anyone was a really
01:29:37.840key objective for me um and that so that was one key thing and that is was a consideration
01:29:49.120that very much shaped the development and use of the financial measures from my perspective at the
01:29:58.480time and also with hindsight a virtue of these measures was no blood on the face of a child
01:30:09.840No physical coercion required. And I thought that it was good that we came up with a way of creating some economic incentives for people to leave. So that was a very important consideration.
01:30:29.840consideration. And yeah, and a second really important consideration in this question, right? I think you're asking exactly the right question. It's, it's the balance, right? I've talked a lot now about why it was such a big problem, why I think we needed to act.
01:30:49.580Are your actions kind of appropriate and proportionate? And I would say the other thing in my mind there was we needed to always have in our minds, yes, a concern about the number of people who would be
01:31:11.580restricted by these measures, but that always needed to be balanced against an awareness
01:31:22.720of the number of people who would be protected by this action. So those were the things that I
01:31:28.840chiefly had in mind. And, you know, I think at the end of the day, it was something like 280
01:31:37.620accounts frozen. One of the reports I remember when we were at like 240 or 241 accounts frozen,
01:31:47.000my numbers won't be exact, but I know you guys have all the numbers too. It was something like
01:31:51.22057 people when we were at around 240. So I don't have the exact figure of how many actual people
01:31:59.460when we were at 280, but I think we have an idea of the ballpark. And so in my mind, I say, okay,
01:32:06.480that i i regret that that happened to those people i really do i would have preferred it
01:32:14.240was a serious thing i would have preferred not to have had to do this but in my mind i weigh that
01:32:22.500against what i really believe is the tens hundreds of thousands of canadian jobs and families that
01:32:31.980be protected. So that's kind of a high level thing. I can talk about donations and family
01:32:37.160members if you'd like me to. Sure. I mean, what I was going to ask you, and maybe this will lead
01:32:42.580into it, but would it be fair to say then that if it's put to you, you know, someone is at the
01:32:50.080protest in Ottawa and gets a call, you got to come home, they've frozen the account and I can't be
01:32:55.220the grocery bill. In a sense, that is the measure doing exactly what it was designed to do, which is
01:33:02.620create an incentive for that person to have to go home and leave the protest. That is in effect
01:33:08.360exactly what the measure was trying to do, because the purpose of it was to avoid what you saw as a
01:33:15.240worse outcome, being an enforcement action that would have potentially violent aspects to it.
01:33:23.060I wouldn't quite go that far. So, you know, had it been possible, if we lived in a universe where, you know, it was possible that a joint, a jointly held family account, the family members could still have access to it, but the person doing the illegal activity didn't, that would be great.
01:33:51.060But that's not how these accounts really work. So the intention was not to apply, to create any incentives on people who were not personally choosing to engage in this illegal activity.
01:34:10.020I accept that that may have happened to some people, but that wasn't the intention.
01:34:16.140The intention was really clear, and I think broadly it worked, was to create nonviolent, nonphysical incentives for people to stop doing this illegal activity, which was hurting Canadians very much.
01:34:36.400And what I would also say is, you know, I would have loved it if we had made the announcement on February 14th that we are going to take this action unless you leave.
01:34:52.560Ideal outcome would have been if everyone had left that night and if none of the measures had actually had to be used.
01:35:01.760there was no desire there there was no desire to be in any way punitive there was a desire
01:35:09.440to create non-violent incentives for people to do the right thing okay um
01:35:20.720i do want to talk about the donations issue sorry mr commissioner i saw you looking at
01:35:25.280at me is that break time it's uh anytime you like it's a can be now or in 10 minutes uh that's a
01:35:33.600good moment maybe now might as well okay we'll take the morning break for uh 15 minutes the
01:35:41.440commission is in recess for 15 minutes
01:55:18.280Thank you. Mr. Freeland, when we left off, the next topic that we planned on addressing was the issue of donations. And to do that, Mr. Clerk, can you please pull up SSM.CAN403972?
01:55:32.28072. And to be clear, the issue that we're getting at here is whether donations are captured,
01:55:44.940small donors are captured by the measures that were enacted. And what we've heard in the evidence
01:55:51.200was that the position taken essentially by the RCMP was this is not who they were targeting.
01:55:56.140They were targeting influencers. They weren't targeting small donors. So this is a text
01:56:01.700exchange between i believe two of your staffers can you tell us who alex lawrence is there
01:56:06.420uh yes he's my director of communications okay um so the comment made here you can just scroll down
01:56:13.220a bit mr clerk is friedland highly skeptical of this thinks that the banks will have frozen some
01:56:19.060smaller account accounts and we just won't know is that an accurate depiction or of your thinking
01:56:25.460around this at the time were you concerned that small donors were being when i say small donors
01:56:32.420i'm talking about the amount of the donation um were being captured by these measures what i
01:56:38.580remember being concerned about and again this isn't something that i wrote it's something that
01:56:46.100alex wrote so i can't speak to his specific conveying of what i said to him and what i was
01:56:55.060concerned about but once we put the measures in place um i knew this was an extraordinary action
01:57:07.540um the kind of thing that i hope only happens you know once in a generation and
01:57:14.340And I knew that Canadians were very focused on what was happening and concerned about it.
01:57:27.720And it was very important for me, having taken this extraordinary step,
01:57:35.300to be as careful as possible in communicating what was happening,
01:57:41.080not to over egg the pudding not to stretch the truth and i didn't want to make a flat statement
01:57:56.060that no small donors have had their accounts frozen although i very much hoped that was the
01:58:02.220case i didn't want to make that categorical statement unless i knew for sure that was the
01:58:09.260case, because I really did understand that we were, you know, in terra incognita. And it was
01:58:20.400really important for us to do everything we could to maintain public confidence of Canadians in
01:58:29.720their government, including the confidence of the Canadians who disagreed with us, maybe most of all
01:58:37.860the confidence of those Canadians. And so my skepticism was sort of about saying to my team,
01:58:44.880if I'm going to be in question period, if I'm going to be in a press conference,
01:58:49.740I only want to assert things that are absolutely true. And the position I didn't want to be in
01:58:58.920was to take this example of donations. I'm really glad that no small donors had their accounts
01:59:05.540frozen. That was a good outcome. And the one that I hoped would be the case. But I also knew that
01:59:14.600things were happening in real time. And what I didn't want to have happen was for me to go out
01:59:20.900to say categorically and reassuringly, don't worry, if you made a small donation, your account
01:59:29.020isn't going to be frozen. And then have someone show up and say, well, actually, it was.
01:59:33.780Because had that been the case, and had I categorically asserted otherwise, then people who already had real doubts about our government would be feeling, wow, these guys are even lying to us.
01:59:50.200So that's where my skepticism came from.
01:59:52.760Okay, so would it be fair to say then that perhaps the intention was not to capture small donations in the measures, but they weren't crafted in order to be able to avoid that outcome specifically, and therefore you couldn't guarantee that that had happened?
02:00:52.540so there's the banks themselves and then there's the the issue of the bank employees themselves so
02:01:03.020the people who are working there who now essentially become frontline officers in this
02:01:07.000particular area you voice this this at the this is the minutes of the february 19th irg the deputy
02:01:13.980Prime Minister and Minister of Finance noted that in conversations with the banks, she is hearing
02:01:19.660concerns around the safety of bank employees, especially tellers who work at branches who may
02:01:25.340be dealing with individuals who have had their accounts frozen. So what were you conveying there?
02:01:30.400What was the concern? What were you hearing? I was concerned about bank tellers. You know,
02:01:40.360they are vulnerable. They're frontline people. They don't get paid that much money. They worked
02:01:47.960hard during COVID. It was important for me for them not to be exposed to any danger
02:01:57.000in all of this. And actually, one of the motivations for crafting the measures the way we did
02:02:07.000was to protect them and you'll remember in the document we looked at
02:02:12.760from that sunday february 13th a concern one of the ceos expressed is absent a clear
02:02:23.640government instruction to the banks the banks would be held responsible and that that was not
02:02:33.160fair or appropriate and i actually agreed with that and my central concern was you know that
02:02:41.160some poor teller not get yelled at and be held responsible um and even be in a dangerous situation
02:02:50.360and so that was part of the thinking behind having these measures to give the banks at all levels
02:02:59.480including the tellers the ability to say this is the government's decision it's not my decision
02:03:08.680if you're angry at someone you know be angry at christie freeland don't be angry at me and i think
02:03:16.040that's appropriate okay do you think that worked yeah i think by and large it did
02:03:23.320Okay, the next topic that I want to ask you about is, as you know, the commission, part of the commission's mandate is to examine the necessity of the measures that were taken and whether the measures that were decided upon and chosen by your government were the correct measures and circumstances.
02:03:41.320circumstances. So you've identified, and obviously identified at the time, choking off funding as an
02:03:48.780important part of how to bring an end to what was going on in Ottawa and across the country,
02:03:54.020funding of the convoys, the funding of the protesters. We know that, but there were a number
02:04:01.360of actions being taken on that front by various actors. So in and around the time when the
02:04:08.780emergencies act was being considered by cabinet by the irg but by cabinet by the prime minister
02:04:14.640a number of things had already taken place so just to list some of them go fund me obviously
02:04:21.180had shut down the uh the convoys campaign on february 4th um td had and and by the way all
02:04:30.560of these are listed in the the crowdfunding overview report that uh you referenced earlier
02:04:35.300that i can take no credit for but um the td had frozen accounts on february 10th i believe
02:04:43.860and the attorney general of ontario had obtained a restraint order and the mureva project i'm sorry
02:04:50.900the mureva injunction process was in play and was eventually obtained on february 17th so all this
02:04:56.340to say there were various measures being taken by others designed to achieve a similar end choking
02:05:02.820off the funding and in light of that and knowledge of what was going on in that area why did you
02:05:08.340conclude that it was still necessary for the government to do what it did with the economic
02:05:13.620measures um it's a good question and something that we thought about a lot and we were constantly
02:05:22.740assessing um and so one of the things i think worth bearing in mind is you know sitting here
02:05:30.420today, we kind of are judging a period of time that's frozen. Whereas as we were making the
02:05:39.100decisions, we were making the decisions in real time as things were evolving. It's a real difference
02:05:43.680in perspective. And I've been struck by it myself as I have reviewed documents to get ready for
02:05:49.180today. In that real-time process, you know, I can't emphasize too much the extent to which
02:06:01.260our preference, everyone's preference, would have been for the actions to stop the blockades
02:06:10.500and occupation without the Emergencies Act needing to be invoked.
02:06:17.620That was overwhelmingly what we would have preferred to do.
02:06:32.720So on the financial side of things, we were constantly looking and seeing, okay, are the
02:06:39.500tools that are currently in place good enough effective enough and that was one reason from
02:06:45.740my perspective that i convened that call of the bank ceos on february 13th and what you'll see
02:06:54.540in that call that we've gone over already is they were very clear that the measures were not enough
02:07:02.220And there was one CEO there who talked about how very specifically they had identified an account, they went to get the court order, but by the time they did, just four hours had passed and the money had moved.
02:07:17.340And that, it is certainly consistent with my understanding of the financial system as moving faster than the legal system can move.
02:07:33.320The other concern, which was also raised on that call, which I was very alive to, was the inappropriateness of putting the onus on the banks, including the tellers that we've spoken about, about acting.
02:07:57.900that this had become a very politicized space and they felt and one of the CEOs said in that
02:08:12.500conversation on Sunday, we are being seen in taking this measure as having taken a political
02:08:19.140position. And I thought it was really legitimate for them to say, it's not our job to make a
02:08:26.540political judgment here. You are the elected government. It's your job. And it's your job
02:08:32.900to bear that responsibility. So essentially, if this is going to happen, the government should
02:08:38.980own it, not the banks? Yeah. Also on the topic of necessity, then, there were a variety of
02:08:47.640measures enacted, some of which were barely even used. So the insurance provisions, for instance,
02:08:54.180barely, not used at all, I believe, the FinTrack, FinTrack, and they ended up seeing very few
02:09:00.620reports made. How would you say, in retrospect, those measures were necessary, given that they
02:09:06.740weren't even used? In retrospect, I am glad that we put both of those measures in there.
02:09:15.900And I can explain each one if you'd like me to.
02:09:21.400So on FinTrack, as we said we would do on February 14th, this was the case of this crisis causing us, you know, to review our toolbox and kind of saying, okay, we're missing a screwdriver.
02:09:43.020And it turned out we couldn't, I don't know, build the screwdriver in time to use it in this
02:09:52.680situation. But we were missing a screwdriver. We identified that. And we said on February 14th,
02:10:00.940you know, this is a gap we've identified, we're going to fill the gap. And we did, in fact,
02:10:08.980go ahead and do that. So FinTrack now has those authorities, and that's a good thing.
02:10:16.900As it happened in this sort of fast-moving situation, the way FinTrack works means there
02:10:27.660was a lag time between those authorities being granted to FinTrack, not granted, being sort of
02:10:36.240put there in the measures and that actually being actionable and meaningful in this specific case.
02:10:46.160I judge that to be a good thing because it meant that things came to an end quite quickly.
02:10:54.960But I also judge, as we judged at the time and as we said very openly to Canadians,
02:11:00.800And I don't think there's actually a lot of debate around this, that it's a good thing for FinTrack to have this authority. So that's FinTrack. And it was also appropriate, as was the case, that in the emergency measures, that specific extra power was limited just to the actions in the measures.
02:11:25.360It wasn't a universal granting. We went back with regulatory changes to give that authority to FinTrack in a permanent way. And I think Isabelle Jacques has explained that, you know, I guess, theoretically, a person could say, well, why not just take that regulatory action on February the 14th or February the 15th right away, rather than put it in the emergency measures?
02:11:53.360and regulation just takes longer to fully develop and to do properly but that was always the
02:12:01.940intention and we did it and i think that's good on the insurance um from my perspective
02:12:09.020it actually is good that we put it in place and it's good that we didn't have to use it
02:12:20.160You will have seen in some of the previous documents you've discussed with me, and in some of previous testimony, that a huge preoccupation was tow trucks.
02:12:37.880I think Canadians will not forget Premier Kenny's comments about tow trucks, for example.
02:12:45.280And it's something that I raised with Brian Deese. It was like this serious thing. For lack of a tow truck, the economy was wrecked. For lack of a nail, the kingdom was lost. It was that kind of a situation. It all came down to lack of tow trucks.
02:13:05.240The insurance measure, I saw and I see as like a virtual tow truck.
02:13:17.120It was specifically designed to create an incentive for the trucks to move.
02:13:30.660and there was news reporting at the time that suggests that some people moved their trucks
02:13:42.120because they saw the insurance measure was there. We were very public about it being there
02:13:47.660and that that created an incentive to leave and that's what we wanted to have happen.
02:13:54.200I see the fact that it didn't ever have to be used as a feature, not a bug.
02:14:03.160Again, from my perspective, the less action we had to actually take, the less we had to actually use these measures, the better.
02:14:15.060If the measures had been effective purely upon being announced, creating a deterrent and an incentive for people to leave, and if that had happened in 24 or 48 hours and no accounts had been frozen, that would have been a wonderful outcome.
02:14:38.300We've been at this for seven months and virtual tow truck is not an expression we've yet heard.
02:14:45.060but getting back to the the substance of what you were saying there would it be fair to say or
02:14:52.660the emergency is it was revoked within about a week the declaration of the emergency did it
02:14:59.300did it end faster than you expected it to
02:15:02.500i don't think i can answer that question because i don't think i had any precise expectation
02:15:16.660um in a situation like that i think um you have to just hope for the best
02:15:24.100and plan for the worst um and i think that's what we tried to do
02:15:28.580um almost done there's a there's a few texts i want to take you to now um that consist of some
02:15:40.020some discussions you had with various people after the act was invoked so the first one i
02:15:46.020want to pull up is ssm.can four zeros 4352 please
02:15:58.660so this is a discussion you had with parent beating can you just explain for the commission's
02:16:03.540benefit who parent bd is um okay and maybe for my benefit you can remind me what the date of
02:16:10.500this was because i don't remember the 22nd of february okay thanks maybe you already maybe you
02:16:15.780said that and i didn't know sorry um so perrin beady um is the head of the chamber of commerce
02:16:24.580um he is a person uh with whom i have now worked closely for a long time um during the nafta
02:16:34.100negotiations also uh during the covid recession when we were working on our economic response
02:16:44.740um he was particular he is someone who um i um whose collaboration i really value um
02:16:57.220of course because he represents the chamber and canadian small business and that's an
02:17:02.660important constituency for the department of finance obviously um but also because perrin
02:17:09.140is a former conservative cabinet minister and in fact is the guy originally responsible for
02:17:14.740the emergencies act um but in his capacity as sort of a former conservative cabinet minister
02:17:20.900I do think that where possible, it's really good for a Liberal government to try to have good relationships, good working conversations with former Conservative ministers to understand that point of view.
02:17:41.220And to, you know, I fully understand that we're talking now about a very strong action we took, which was polarizing for the country or which spoke to a time of polarization in the country.
02:17:58.760but parents specifically for me is an example of a person with whom I work hard to maintain a
02:18:05.060relationship because I think where we can have consensus in Canada where we can work across
02:18:11.960partisan lines and we can't always do that but where we can I think that's good for the country
02:18:17.480okay so let's see um what Mr. Beattie wrote to you so presumably you were texting him about
02:18:22.820about the invocation of the act and he writes hi Christia thanks for your note while I'm still
02:18:28.620working my way through the implications the financial aspects you announce seem to be the
02:18:33.980most significant additional measures that the government took under the act then he goes on
02:18:39.660and says i certainly hope that we'll see an early non-violent end to the blockades although i am as
02:18:44.860worried i am worried as i know you are there are also lots of long-term issues we need to consider
02:18:50.460once this is over including whether we need to take other measures that could obviate the need
02:18:55.500to use the extraordinary powers in the act in the future and how to repair holes in our political
02:19:00.940system i'm particularly concerned about the radicalization of people who would normally be
02:19:06.460law-abiding mr clerk can you now pull up again it's in two separate documents ssm.can four zeros
02:19:13.8204351 please so scrolling down until we get to where we were
02:19:30.620there we go um i'm particularly concerned about the radicalization of people who would normally
02:19:35.660be law-abiding and focused on going about their daily lives glad to talk at any time
02:19:40.700so the first thing i want to ask you minister is would you agree that the mr beady says the
02:19:46.860the most significant additional measures taken by the government
02:19:50.220were the financial ones is that an observation you would agree with
02:20:00.060i think they were significant for sure um and effective um i'm not sure i would say they were
02:20:06.220the most significant but i think for sure they were significant okay and um the next the other
02:20:12.060question i want to ask is uh mr beady raises the the issue or the possibility of considering other
02:20:20.780measures that could be taken to obviate the need for the emergencies act do you have any comment
02:20:25.420on that aspect of his i think that's a question for perrin okay fair enough and perhaps even a
02:20:31.900question for the commission as we head into policy week next week he could parent actually i mean
02:20:36.060And quite seriously, I think Perrin Beattie would be a very good person to talk to about this.
02:20:46.060Which is why you were approaching him about this at this time.
02:20:49.560Okay, so I think that's probably enough of Mr. Beattie's observations.
02:20:53.100The other person, do you recall a phone call or a conversation with Brian Mulrooney,
02:20:58.240former Prime Minister Brian Mulrooney, about this?
02:20:59.980Um, I did not recall it at the time, and sort of it didn't immediately come to mind. But having reviewed my own notes, I do see that I spoke to him.
02:21:14.120Okay, so if I pull up the notes, will you recognize the conversation?
02:26:08.920Um, it's true for the people who work in a Windsor car plant and who, you know, in some dystopian counterfactual, um, let's imagine that we hadn't acted. Let's imagine that this had entirely spiraled out of control.
02:26:29.740Let's imagine that immediate trade in the car sector had been imperiled and that the Americans just sort of said, you know what, we just can't do this building of cars together with you guys.
02:26:43.580So, you know, the people who would have lost their jobs there, the people in a steel mill in Hamilton who would lose their job as that relationship fell apart,
02:26:56.560the people in an aluminum smelter in Quebec. For each of those people, having this all fall apart
02:27:05.120and the country's economy be profoundly undermined, that would undermine their security,
02:27:12.140and it would undermine our security as a country. And if that seems too abstract,
02:27:19.900I think you're seeing it today in the geopolitical space where we're actually seeing economic tools being weaponized in actual wars.
02:27:34.680I spoke yesterday with the prime minister of Ukraine because we're issuing sovereignty bonds.
02:27:42.900It's a good thing that Canada is doing.
02:27:46.500But I spoke with him yesterday, and he was talking to me in the darkness because most of Ukraine's power and water had been taken out by Russian missiles.
02:28:00.000Now, I'm not saying that we're talking about missiles with Canada, but I'm saying that a tool being used to undermine Ukraine is directly going at its economy.
02:28:10.960And we're seeing something similar happening in Europe, where energy supply to Europe, entirely an economic measure, is being used to undermine Europe's security.
02:28:24.960So I do think that an attack on or an undermining of a country's economy, that can fundamentally undermine that country's national security.
02:28:40.960And there's a second aspect, which I was really worried about, which is maybe less kind of highfalutin and philosophical and more human and specific.
02:28:56.280And what I was worried about was, you know, it sounds, it can sound very abstract to say economic security can undermine national security, to say geo-economics is a tool in geopolitics.
02:29:13.600But actually, that's not that complicated. And I think that while these illegal blockades and occupation were going on, I think actual ordinary Canadians who do not debate these concepts in their ordinary lives were feeling their own security to be undermined and were getting really angry.
02:29:39.980And one thing that I was worried about, I've mentioned that I was worried about in the ending of these blockades and occupation, I really didn't want anyone who was part of the blockade and occupation to be hurt.
02:29:56.900another thing that was very much in my mind was the possibility of violent conflict between people
02:30:05.360doing the blockading and occupying and other Canadians who were very angry about it I felt
02:30:14.300that Canada was sort of a powder cake and that you could have a violent physical confrontation
02:30:20.840at any point. I didn't visit Windsor at the time, but I heard a lot of people saying,
02:30:31.700you know, this could really get out of hand. And the people of Windsor, they really understand
02:30:38.540how important that trade over the Ambassador Bridge is. And I did really fear you could have
02:30:47.000counter protests and a confrontation there and that would have been terrible for the people
02:30:52.520involved and terrible for our country and i was worried in ottawa also um and this is now just
02:30:59.480very sort of personal eyewitness experience but um i don't normally have uh rcmp security
02:31:10.120and i think that's a good thing i think that says something good about canada
02:31:14.160But the RCMP, they know what I'm doing every day, and it's their job to judge whether they think I need security or not.
02:31:24.300And I have to say to the RCMP officers who are here, who I recognize, they do a very good job of it, of making that judgment, I think.
02:31:32.680So a measure for me of how much Ottawa was a powder keg was the fact that I think from the end of January,
02:31:43.620the RCMP judged that I did need to have RCMP with me just walking around.
02:31:50.780And so I didn't feel personally in danger because the RCMP were taking care of me.
02:31:56.440But I do remember one morning, and I'm sorry, I didn't write it down in my notebook, so I can't tell you the date. But I remember one morning, when I was walking from my hotel to my office, I walked past a parked truck. And there was a young woman walking there too.
02:32:15.520and the truck honked really loudly and she shouted something not very nice and made an obscene hand
02:32:27.960gesture and the truck honked again really loudly and I was really glad that I was there and more
02:32:37.960importantly that the RCMP was there because I thought this is exactly the kind of thing like
02:32:43.940imagine no one had been there it was just this small young woman and this big truck and a person
02:32:51.780in it and she was mad and i just thought you know there are dozens and dozens of these things0.55
02:32:59.580happening every day and you know god forbid that one of them should actually flare into violence
02:33:07.560and physical harm so i was worried about that too and that does speak to the economic challenge
02:33:15.400because many many canadians while this was happening understood that this for them this
02:33:24.360threat to canada's economic security for many many canadians it was a personal threat to them
02:33:32.120and they felt that their government was not protecting them and they were right we weren't
02:33:39.240for a while and it was a real danger i think that that
02:33:49.800totally understandable and reasonable feeling that my economic security is being undermined
02:33:57.480by these illegal blockades and occupation my government isn't taking care of me maybe i have
02:34:05.520to take care of myself and that would have been terrible had that happened that's why we have a
02:34:11.160government thank you commissioner those are my questions okay well thank you so we're now uh
02:34:20.420We'll move to the cross-examination portion. First, I'd like to call on the convoy organizers first to go ahead, please.
02:34:50.420Hello, my name is Brendan Miller and I'm counsel to Freedom Corp, which is the representative
02:34:57.600of the protesters that were in your city at Ottawa in January and February 2022. So ma'am,
02:35:06.660I understand the mandate regarding truckers that led to the protest that came into effect
02:38:53.400again i'm not an expert in the history of vaccine compensation funds right but first
02:39:00.680company you can agree the first compensation fund in canada for vaccines came about only because of
02:39:07.240the covid vaccines correct again i'm i'm really not an expert in vaccine compensation funds if
02:39:15.400if the direction of the question is to suggest that the covid vaccines are more dangerous in
02:39:22.760some way than previous vaccines we've used in canada i'll say one i'm not a health expert but
02:39:29.960i believe very much uh in really the advice the effectiveness the thoroughness of health canada
02:39:41.160okay they're very good at judging the safety of vaccines and i will say i have been vaccinated
02:39:46.520four times my children i understand ma'am i don't need to know that but but it does speak
02:39:51.800it does speak to my confidence in the vaccines i've had my children vaccinated it speaks to my
02:39:57.000belief that they're saying you stop talking at the clock and let me ask my questions okay
02:40:00.840so well it's it's a bit of a trade-off you you ask you make a statement and you say do you agree
02:40:06.200and she qualifies the answer that's appropriate okay so ma'am if uh if that's the case then did
02:40:13.880health canada advise you to enact this regulation uh the mandate yeah
02:40:21.800Again, I'm not the health minister and I'm not going to speak to specific moments that we had advice.
02:40:30.780But what I will say is we were very careful and thoughtful throughout COVID in the public health measures that we put in place and acted based on advice of PHAC.
02:40:44.880Right. And so that mandate was only in place until June of 2022, right?
02:40:51.800Again, I can't recall the specific dates, but I'm prepared to accept what you're saying.
02:40:58.920We're going to move on to just another area.
02:41:00.900I take it you know who Tamara Leach is, right?0.91
02:41:03.580I don't know her personally, but I have read about her.
02:41:07.160Yeah, and you know who Chris Barber is?
02:41:11.060Again, I don't know him personally, but I've read about him.
02:41:13.860Yeah, and you know who Tom Morazzo is, right?
02:53:18.360And on that point, if I told you that there is a whole bunch of unlawfully redacted documents that we've been fighting over and waiting for an order just to get them today, and we haven't had them for this whole proceeding, do you think that's transparent?
02:53:33.020again and with apologies i can't agree with the premise of the question i think that but what i
02:53:42.780can say is i think that the fact that this commission exists that these hearings are being
02:53:49.500held that they're public is really important for canada and is a measure of canadian transparency
02:53:56.300right and one of your concerns of course with transparency and our reputation
02:54:04.380was that you would want your government to be as transparent as possible right
02:54:14.060again here i do believe that transparency and accountability are important
02:54:20.860but i also recognize that cabinet confidentiality
02:54:26.300in many issues needs to be preserved for a reason and you know there are areas where
02:54:32.380transparency is not appropriate and i recognize that as well okay can you agree with me if you
02:54:38.220know anytime it comes out that the canadian government has misled canadians on something
02:54:42.700that really hurts our international reputation doesn't it i think that the canadian government
02:54:51.340should always seek not to mislead Canadians,
02:54:57.940first and foremost, because that's wrong
02:55:01.380and that is not the way we should treat Canadians.
02:55:04.260And in the many statements that have been said
02:55:07.260by all the politicians in this matter,
02:55:10.660one of the main things they talked about,
02:56:18.960MS. Good afternoon, Minister Freeland. My name is Eva Krajewska, and I'm counsel
02:56:24.420for the Canadian Civil Liberties Association. Minister Freeland, I'd like to start off with
02:56:31.560back to your testimony in chief with respect to the ambassador bridge if i understand your
02:56:38.600testimony correctly you stated that the blockage of the ambassador bridge escalated matters in
02:56:45.960your mind significantly that's fair um so first of all good afternoon miss krayevska nice well
02:56:54.840maybe i shouldn't say nice maybe maybe you can tell me that yeah but i good afternoon and i
02:56:59.320will try to answer your questions um and i think you're when you say testimony you're referring to
02:57:08.040so um to be very try to be precise um yes as finance minister in my judgment around the economic
02:57:19.720impact of the illegal blockades and occupation certainly the blockade of the ambassador bridge
02:57:27.720was a very significant escalation right and and and precisely the words you just use now
02:57:33.960it was at least at that point if not earlier that to your mind the blockades and the demonstrations
02:57:41.320became illegal no i i don't think i want to
02:57:51.560be so precise about that what i am very clear about is the blockade of the bridge
02:58:06.200made this a real economic crisis for canada and that was a moment when as finance minister
02:58:18.040I really had to figure out a way to stop the harm to Canada from getting worse and from really snowballing and irreparably damaging our country.
02:58:32.620And you said because it had potentially exponential harm to the Canadian economy.
02:58:39.220Yes. I mean, I wasn't taking notes of what I said, but I believe that.
02:58:43.300Yes. And that's when you started looking at the Bank Act and the PCLMFTA as potential
02:58:50.420using the measures under that legislation to stop those demonstrations.
02:58:57.380Again, here, let me be sort of very precise about my state of mind.
02:59:05.700um from my perspective the we had a number of different but uh certainly inspired by one another
02:59:20.100occupations and blockades across the country there was the occupation of ottawa and i i can't
02:59:26.340tell you the chronology of them i'm sure you're familiar with them but so there's occupation of
02:59:30.180ottawa there was coots there was emerson in terms of economic impact the ambassador bridge was the
02:59:37.460most significant um there was also i believe sarnia uh niagara and surrey so from my perspective
02:59:49.220what was happening was this kind of metastasizing whack-a-mole copycat events around the country
03:00:02.660and some of them had a greater specific economic impact than others the ambassador bridge sort of
03:00:12.340stepped up the impact but it was not the case in my view that this was just the ambassador bridge
03:00:21.220and i didn't that was not the purpose of my question that okay it was only about the ambassador
03:00:25.380bridge i understand your evidence that the blockades generally had a significant economic
03:00:31.060impact on canada that you were concerned about that's fair
03:00:35.460again can i say yes and offer an explanation
03:00:43.760i i'm not trying to make this controversial or to trap you i'm just i'm just i'm just trying
03:00:50.540to establish this to move on to my next point okay well i would just say you are a lawyer
03:00:54.280so a person does have to be careful yeah um but um and i say that with the greatest respect for
03:01:00.460all the lawyers who are here um but look the point that i just want to be clear about and i do think
03:01:08.140that um there has been in some of the public thinking about this a lack of clarity
03:01:16.060is from my perspective one way that you could look at the economic harm
03:01:22.060was what happens every day arithmetically and just add it up from my perspective
03:01:30.140that grossly understates the econ the potential economic harm that was being done
03:01:36.860because what i was really worried about was that as this goes on every single hour more damage is
03:01:47.420done to american confidence in us as a trading partner and more damage is done to us as an
03:01:56.940investment destination witness the banana republic comment right and you exactly so you were concerned
03:02:03.980that this economic disruption was painting canada as politically unstable not a place that is safe
03:02:11.820to invest for and potentially a banana republic which by definition is an unstable country i mean
03:02:18.140banana republic wasn't my term but it was a term that had an impact on me for sure okay now minister
03:02:25.580feeling you can appreciate that from the canadian civil liberties association our concern is that the
03:02:32.700emergencies act should not be used to quash political dissent that's you understand that
03:02:38.300I totally do. And if I can be personal for one moment, in my life as a person and a writer and an elected politician, I would always prefer for myself to be on the same side as the Civil Liberties Association, that these are values I hold very dear. And so I understand the urgency with which you champion them.
03:03:07.180Right. And you and then so I think you would also agree that the Emergencies Act should not be used because demonstrators are disagreeing with government policy.
03:03:18.300I think that's a very low threshold here that I'm putting to you.
03:03:24.060and i think you also know in your life both as a as a journalist and as a minister that on occasion
03:03:32.780the right to freedom of assembly and freedom of expression includes actions that are of civil
03:03:39.420disobedience i do recognize that that sometimes happens um and i also recognize that
03:03:51.580laws are enforced against people committing acts of civil disobedience people can believe in
03:03:59.980something and can bravely commit those acts and pay the price of the legal penalty and exactly and
03:04:09.260civil disobedience will on occasion also involve serious economic disruption and i can i'll give
03:04:16.700you a few examples a general strike is a form of civil disobedience that causes economic disruption
03:04:22.860you'd agree with that if the tendency of these questions is to equate the economic harm that
03:04:34.940was being done to canada and that would have risen had these illegal occupations and blockades
03:04:41.740continued with the harm done by a general strike then i strongly disagree okay and sometimes
03:04:49.820blockades by indigenous people cause economic harm correct they do and sometimes occupations
03:04:57.260like occupy wall street or occupy toronto may cause economic harm certainly but the economic harm0.99
03:05:05.820you know to take those two specific instances um very very limited actually compared to the
03:05:14.060damage being done to canada and if i may you know had what was happening in canada being about um
03:05:26.540i don't know the the field behind the national art gallery being occupied for a long time
03:05:34.860and maybe some comparable public park in windsor being occupied and so on across the country
03:05:41.580um that would have been entirely legitimate protest but that wasn't what was happening okay
03:05:49.580maybe i can take you to an example closer to home when for me when solidarity had a general
03:05:55.660strike in poland and blocked the ports western democracies applauded that action that was
03:06:01.900economic disruption was viewed as a legitimate form of political protest at that time
03:06:09.660i'm going to allow myself one personal comment which is i did make a bet with myself that you
03:06:15.020and i would end up talking about so that flushed yeah you know coming from the eastern block it
03:06:20.140was going to happen um yeah i am aware of that and um i don't think you'll be surprised
03:06:32.140to think that I thought about that at the time. And more recently, and more specifically,
03:06:38.780I thought about the Maidan in Ukraine. And when we took this action. And
03:06:50.220let me talk about a few differences. And the main one is this.
03:06:54.780Solidarność, as you know very well, was a protest against a government that was illegitimate.
03:07:07.740That was from whence it drew its power and legitimacy. This was people rising up against
03:07:17.500an authoritarian, and I would even say in the case of Poland, colonial regime. In Canada,
03:07:24.780what happened was a democratically elected government that was actually
03:07:31.420acting on policies that we had campaigned on just that summer. So it was a fresh democratic
03:07:40.040mandate. There was no lack of transparency with the people of Canada. And people who disagreed
03:07:47.520with those policies were holding the country's economy hostage. And that was not appropriate.
03:07:56.620I do want to raise a concern. I'm assuming you're not saying that democracy only operates at the
03:08:05.800time of casting our ballot. Obviously, I think you acknowledge that we are able to protest in
03:08:13.780between those times so even after you were democratically elected people could protest
03:08:18.800your government's policies correct a hundred percent and and i am in no way in no way suggesting
03:08:25.500that the act of protest is anti-democratic on the contrary the right to protest i think
03:08:37.280It's a feature, not a bug of democracy. But what I was saying, which I believe very strongly, is there is a big difference between acts of popular resistance and even revolution against an authoritarian regime and protest in a democracy.
03:09:03.480And, Minister, I'd like to just take you to, you started your comments this morning as well with the bigger geopolitical issues here between President Putin trying to demonstrate that his way of dictatorships is preferable to Western democracies.
03:09:27.360and one you know i think you can appreciate that there have been countries in the world that have
03:09:34.560said you should invest in us because we are politically stable we do not have general
03:09:40.640strikes we do not tolerate dissent and i i want to end on this surely you agree that in canada
03:09:48.720which is a democracy the right to protest the right to demonstration must be steadily
03:09:55.440protected and that economic security does not trump those rights
03:10:05.120so many things packed in there i know i just i'm running out of time so it's so going in
03:10:10.400so many things packed in there um and many of them i agree with um
03:10:15.680I have reported on a lot of authoritarian regimes that spoke about their stability
03:10:28.560as something that should be attractive to investors. And clearly, I strongly disagree
03:10:37.860with that argument. My concern when it came to the economic security of Canada was about
03:10:50.520our ability not to not have political debate. Political debate is a sign of a healthy society.
03:11:02.440You know, the fact we're having this commission, that's a healthy democracy. The fact that in
03:11:07.260question period, we yell at each other. I really don't like it, but it's a sign of a healthy
03:11:11.720democracy. What was undermining of Canada's economic security sufficiently dangerously
03:11:23.320that I believe we needed to act and it was the right thing to do was that our trade was being
03:11:30.860stopped and was being seriously blocked. And I was very worried that that was handing arguments
03:11:39.860to U.S. protectionists who were already on the move and that had that relationship
03:11:48.060being seriously damaged, that would really hurt Canada.
03:11:53.640And, Mr. Guilherme, my last point, you mentioned at some point that it would have been one thing
03:11:57.720for the protesters to stand with a placard at the war museum and protest. You mentioned that
03:12:04.880today in testimony with me. I didn't say war museum and I didn't say placard, but the basic
03:12:11.280idea, I think we're in the same zone. I'm sorry, I'm thinking of a different Ottawa monument,
03:12:15.900but you agree that public assembly and the right to protest goes beyond simply me standing on a
03:12:23.480green lawn in front of a government government building that it it does encompass more than that
03:12:31.260and that canada should protect that to be a vibrant democracy
03:12:35.620i you know am not going to right now try to define with you specifically you know what
03:12:49.240is, you know, give examples of protests. But what I will say, and I really agree with,
03:12:59.760and I think one of the lines that very much in my mind in this decision is, I do agree with you
03:13:10.660that in a democracy, the right to protest is important and has to be protected. And
03:13:18.580And yeah, I obviously, I mean, that's such an obvious statement.
04:24:10.960commission has reconvened la commissary okay um once again i apologize for the slight delay
04:24:22.880issues have come up that i'm having to deal with so i apologize now i think we can go to the next
04:24:31.440the next which is the canadian constitution foundation and you're online go ahead yeah
04:24:39.120great thank you very much so uh good afternoon minister um my name is jenny shen mcganathan
04:24:45.840and i am counsel for the canadian constitution foundation and today in your evidence you talked
04:24:52.640about the economic and financial consequences of the protests you talked about the reputational
04:25:00.320damage to canada as an investment destination and at the end of commission council's examination
04:25:07.520she asked you to explain how you understood this, you know, economic harm was linked to
04:25:15.440national security. Do you recall that? Yes, I do. All right. And your answer to that was,
04:25:23.600you believe our security as a country is built on economic security. And if our economic security
04:25:32.700is threatened, all of our security is threatened. And now I'm not asking you to elaborate on this.
04:25:38.980I just want you to confirm that this was your evidence.
04:25:44.300Obviously, I don't have word by word recall of what I said, but that's what I believe. And I'm
04:25:50.780sounds like you're reading the transcript. So. All right. Thank you very much. And now
04:25:55.960I take it you know that in order to declare a public order emergency pursuant to the Emergencies Act, there must be what's called threats to the security of Canada.
04:28:11.120You know, if the direction of these questions is to ask me, did I believe we were acting within legal authorities granted by the Emergencies Act, if that's where this question is leading, then my answer is yes.
04:28:41.120i believed we had the authority to do what we did and i hope no one is surprised by my saying that
04:28:51.360had i not believed it i would not have done it and i wouldn't be here uh speaking you know with
04:29:02.080sadness but confidence that we did the right thing so my question was um whether the economic harm
04:29:10.640that you've described today falls within the definition found in c which speaks specifically
04:29:17.920to the support of the threat or use of acts of serious violence against persons or property
04:29:24.720for the purpose of achieving a political religious or ideological objective within
04:29:29.440canada or a foreign state does the economic harm you've described today fall within c
04:29:35.280it's a big question and so i was offering an answer in several parts
04:29:43.840and i offered the first part of it and i can continue if you'd like
04:29:48.800no i i mean to be respectful i just want to know you know i appreciate that your position is that
04:29:57.000canada acted within lawful authority to invoke the emergencies act but i just want to understand if
04:30:03.380the economic harm that we spent a lot of today talking about whether that falls within the scope
04:30:09.920of C. And so I just want to know your answer to that question. And I also really do want to be
04:30:19.080respectful and answer this really important question. But it's a big question, so I'm going
04:30:27.480to have to take it in stages. And I offered the first stage. I can carry on if you'd like.
04:30:33.380Sure. So that was my first stage. Second stage is in terms of, you know, one of the things that this commission is, I think, quite rightly investigating.
04:30:52.200You know, was the government acting within its authorities?
04:30:58.600For me, as finance minister, an important factor in the judgment I came to, which is that we were, was the expert advice that we received.
04:31:18.160uh i rely on the judgment of officials who advised us and on expert legal advice and i say that even
04:31:32.120as i am very confident that it was the right decision and confident in taking personal
04:31:42.300political responsibility. I can also speak to what I saw and experienced and believed
04:31:58.300that falls within the scope of the serious violence against persons or property point.
04:32:05.900But I do want to be clear that I'm not speaking here as someone with an expert legal opinion, but I'm speaking as a minister who made a political judgment and as someone who was also in Ottawa.
04:32:25.460So some of the things that factored into my thinking about it were, as I described in my testimony this morning,
04:32:35.640a real concern that we were in a tinderbox situation where the economic threats and the
04:32:50.320threats generally um that and the damage that were being created both by the ottawa occupation
04:32:58.700and the Ambassador Bridge did risk, I felt at every moment, some kind of conflict between
04:33:09.440protesters and counter protesters. I saw that and experienced it myself, just being a person who was
04:33:17.700in Ottawa. I felt it was a tinder keg that could be sparked at any moment and was therefore very
04:33:23.960dangerous. And although I didn't see it myself, I heard accounts of Windsor, of a situation there,
04:33:32.260which I found to be very credible. I was also influenced, can I say one more thing?
04:33:39.800Sure. Which speaks to this. I was also influenced by our IRG meeting on, I think it was the Saturday,
04:33:50.460the 12th, where we heard from the RCMP commissioner about concerns that there were serious weapons
04:34:00.400in coots. And that really raised the stakes in terms of my degree of concern about what
04:34:13.540could be happening there, but also what could be happening in this sort of whack-a-mole copycat
04:34:20.700situation across the country. Okay, so my question was about how you understood the economic harms
04:34:30.780to fall within subsection, or see the definition of threats to security of Canada in C, and as I
04:34:37.680understand your explanation your explanation is it falls within it because there's a risk that
04:34:44.660the economic harm that's being created by the protest could somehow manifest into actual
04:34:52.440threats of violence is that is that your understanding of how it falls within c i'm going
04:34:57.360to object to the question as phrased that's a legal question i'm just trying to find out her
04:35:03.600on you know she's offered an explanation for how she says the economic harm falls within sea and
04:35:10.420she linked it directly to the threats or use of acts and i'm just trying to understand what that
04:35:15.320link is i i mean my counsel may have something to say but i don't think that's a fair characterization
04:35:21.880of what i said just now or of what i said this morning um what i think is fair is first of all
04:35:32.960that I relied on expert legal judgment to make a very important and weighty legal decision.
04:35:46.860What I also said is, as a person who was here in Ottawa, I did see a real danger of violence.
04:35:56.160And then finally, what I described in my testimony this morning was the way in which the economic security of our country, I really believe, is a part of our national security.
04:36:14.160But that was a much broader conversation we were having about a broad set of issues, which I certainly think are important for us to think about and consider.
04:36:27.580And I don't want to mischaracterize your evidence. Just so that we're all clear, do you see a link between the economic harm that you say was caused by the protests to Canada with what's contained in C in terms of the threats or use of acts of serious violence against persons?
04:36:48.760And again, there, I really do not want to shirk my personal political responsibility, and while this was a grave and serious decision, we took it carefully and thoughtfully, and I believed it was the right decision then, and I believe today it is the right decision.
04:37:12.540But I'm also conscious, if I may continue.
04:37:18.760Of course, I'm also conscious that I am not a lawyer and I'm not a person who can give expert opinion on the precise parsing of these authorities.
04:37:37.520It was important for me to be assured that we did have the authority to act, and I received, as a cabinet member, assurances that we had those authorities from people who I believe were qualified to offer those assurances.
04:38:02.380and i don't mean to belabor the point i just want to make sure the evidence is clear so
04:38:07.580your evidence is that you understood that you had the authority to invoke the emergencies act but
04:38:14.220in terms of saying there's a linkage between the economic harm caused by the protest with
04:38:20.460the requirement of the threat or use of acts of serious violence is that something that you can't
04:38:26.380speak to again uh commissioner this is a legal interpretation question that will be addressed in
04:38:32.060closing submissions and i don't mean to belabor this i just want to make sure i understand uh
04:38:37.900deputy minister's evidence is she just saying that she can't comment on it because it's
04:38:42.380a legal question or she's saying that there is a link i just want to know what the answer is
04:38:47.740i i renew my objection and would ask for a ruling on it
04:38:50.540Okay, well, I think at the end of the day, I don't think you can pursue this any further
04:38:58.000at the moment. I think you've got your answer as it is.
04:39:03.760That's fine. Thank you very much. I don't know how much time I have left, but I do have
04:39:07.500just one other point I'd like to, or one other issue to address, if I may. So when we were
04:39:13.060talking about fin track this morning and you explored it as one option to pursue but decided
04:39:20.100that you know making a change to it you know the legislative amendment would take too much time do
04:39:26.660you recall your evidence earlier today about that yes i do all right and so um just so that we're
04:39:34.180all clear because we have canadians watching who may not understand the process the money
04:39:40.580the Proceeds of Crime and Money Laundering and Terrorist Financing Act, it gives the ability to create regulations, right?
04:39:51.740If your question is, was it possible to grant Fintrack, to give Fintrack these expanded powers through regulation, that is correct.
04:40:06.700And I said that this morning. We did go on to grant those powers through regulation.
04:40:15.300And there's just a difference between how regulations are passed versus, say, example, legislation or amendments to legislation.
04:40:25.360The latter is what you have to do, the three readings, going to Senate. It's a much longer legislative process. That's fair?
04:41:33.740And, Ms. Freeland, while we're waiting for that to come up, this is a letter which is addressed to you and other Ministers by the Canadian Trucking Alliance, and it's dated December 10th, 2021.
04:41:49.580I'd like to take you through part of this letter, but before I do that, can you tell me, do you know who this group is, the Canadian Trucker Alliance?
04:41:55.960I can't say I'm familiar with them right now. Maybe I've heard of them, but...
04:42:00.640okay well i i think we've heard some evidence about them but if you're not familiar with them
04:42:04.880that's okay let's just go down uh to the first paragraph here and mr land i just want to read
04:42:10.720this to you it says that the canadian trucker alliance is disappointed to learn that our
04:42:16.480current exemption from the national vaccination mandate is being removed considering the immense
04:42:22.880impact this decision will have on already beleaguered supply chains do you see that i do
04:42:30.320okay and if i can take you to another part of that letter just on the second page second paragraph
04:42:36.560please here we see cta estimates that combined the proposed vaccine mandate for cross-border
04:42:46.080truck drivers and the federal sector mandate announced by the minister of labor would remove
04:42:51.600between 15 000 and 30 000 canadian drivers from the inter-provincial and international supply chains
04:42:58.800The expected loss of transportation services, service capacity will trigger significant ripple effects throughout the entire economy.
04:43:09.460And Mr. Lynn, I just want to ask you, this is something you knew about when the exemption for truckers was removed in February.
04:43:18.620You knew that this might have some effect on the supply chain. Is that fair?
04:43:23.420I knew that some people asserted that it might.
04:43:27.980Okay, thank you. And I'm going to suggest, this is not the first time this group wrote to you. If we can scroll down to page five, please. We have another letter, just to the top of page five. Sorry, it might be page four, just go up, please.
04:43:44.740Okay, so here we have a letter. It is a little bit down, please. I'm sorry. Can we just go to the top? So December the 8th, 2021. And if we can scroll down to the second paragraph, it says here,
04:44:02.860When the mandate was originally announced, CTA expected that upwards of 20% of the 120,000 Canadian truck drivers crossing the U.S.-Canada border would have likely remained unvaccinated by January 2022.
04:44:20.060Of the 40,000 U.S.-based truck drivers crossing the border, CTA estimated that upwards of 40% of these drivers would not be prepared to meet the vaccine mandate requirement.
04:46:11.300And let's just consider that if what the Canadian, if what the CTA is saying is correct, and the drivers are reduced by 20%, that's a reduction of 24,000 trucks in the supply chain.
04:46:29.980The challenge here for me is I disagree with the fundamental premise. And this was something
04:46:41.620that was looked at carefully by Minister Al Ghabra, and also by the Minister of Health.
04:46:48.740Okay, so you disagree with the fundamental premise of the Canadian trucker lives. Thank
04:46:54.620you um i'll move on to something else i just want to understand a little bit more um about what was
04:47:01.340going on in january and you you gave some evidence today and i think you told us that it was a it was
04:47:09.580a very intense month for you that would be fair yes that would be fair okay let me let me make
04:47:15.100sure that i understand it so um on the one hand you were preparing a budget yes okay and um there
04:47:23.580There was the issue of the Build Back Better legislation in the States, and there was the electric vehicle tax credit, right?
04:47:50.000And we talked a little bit about the Ukraine, and I think you said that was the biggest threat to national security since World War II.0.70
04:48:10.620Okay. And in the midst of this, there was this trucker protest of unprecedented proportions taking place across the country, and you described that as whack-a-mole.
04:48:21.240No. What I would describe as what we saw happening from the moment that the initial occupation began is copycat protests happening across the country, and that posed a particular national challenge.
04:48:47.280I see. I thought you said the word whack-a-mole, but it's not important. But what is important I would put to you is that the U.S. was unhappy with the situation in Canada, and they were seeing their own vulnerability in our supply chains. That was your evidence, was it not?
04:49:09.700The, in particular, blockade of the Ambassador Bridge exposed the vulnerability of the U.S. economy, particularly the car sector, to the Canadian car sector.
04:49:41.460Okay, well, we heard evidence from you earlier today, and you said that you were put into contact with Brian Deese.
04:49:48.000So he's the economic advisor to the president.
04:49:50.320He's a very influential player for the electric vehicle tax credit issue,
04:49:56.880and he actually contacted you that's correct right and you thought that was it was striking
04:50:03.180that someone of his importance who's so hard to get a hold of contacted you
04:50:08.220I had spoken to Brian Deese before and since but the speed and urgency with which he got in touch
04:50:20.600with me was definitely significant and relevant and he was unhappy and there could be major
04:50:25.620economic consequences. What he said to me, as I reported in that readout, was that they were
04:50:38.020very concerned that because of the blockades, US factories would shut down. Right. And we heard
04:50:43.660that the CEOs of two major banks contacted you, Canadian banks, I believe. And we also heard that
04:50:49.920uh president biden who is probably the world's most powerful person or or near near that had
04:50:56.480a telephone call with the prime minister yes both of those things are true and that telephone call
04:51:02.960it happened on a friday and by the monday the emergencies act was invoked that's true
04:51:10.400okay and so i put it to you minister that the federal government had to show the usa
04:51:15.760that they were in control and that explains why the emergencies act was invoked despite the fact
04:51:22.640that for example the ambassador bridge was cleared and open to traffic no i wouldn't agree with that
04:51:30.480characterization okay well i would put it to you that the pressure the government was under
04:51:34.960explains why the emergencies act was invoked despite the fact that a deal had been struck
04:51:40.160with the protesters in ottawa to reduce the footprint of the protest in that city
04:51:46.320again i would disagree with that well let's see if you would this would agree with this i'd put
04:51:50.720it to you that there was no meaningful consultation with the provinces not even advanced notice of
04:51:56.320what the first minister's meeting was about and that's because the government didn't have time
04:52:01.360for it they just had to make a decision about the emergencies act because of the tremendous
04:52:07.200pressure that they were under again i disagree with a great deal of that characterization
04:52:14.960one last question for you then miss freeland i put it to you that given the overwhelming
04:52:21.200situation that the government was facing explains why they were willing to use extraordinary powers
04:52:27.760against their own people despite the fact that no police agency or intelligence agency told them
04:52:34.400that were there were threats to the security of canada again i
04:52:42.240disagree with many of the premises in that question and i would be happy to elaborate
04:52:47.280but it seems that we're out of time it seems so thank you very much for your answers thank
04:52:51.840you mr commissioner okay thank you next i'd like to call on the government of alberta
04:52:57.760thank you very much and good afternoon minister freeland i have just two questions for you this
04:53:07.840afternoon as has been discussed today oh sorry i apologize for the transcript my name is mandy
04:53:13.600england and i'm one of the lawyers for the government of alberta as has been discussed
04:53:17.680today you had consultations with the ceos of several banks on february the 13th about potential
04:53:23.120economic measures and you said in your testimony today how important it was for you to hear
04:53:28.880from the leaders of the financial institutions what their views were on the situation with the
04:53:32.960blockades and as you're also aware the consultation with the first ministers of the provinces and
04:53:38.160territories was held on the morning of february 14th and that was after the cabinet meetings and
04:53:43.840the irg meetings had been held now consulting with the ceos of financial institutions for
04:53:50.160their views on the situation is not required by the emergencies act before the government can invoke
04:53:55.600the act for a public order emergency but consulting with the provinces and territories for their input
04:54:01.040is required as deputy prime minister don't you think that the input of the first ministers of
04:54:07.280the provinces and territories on the potential invocation of the emergencies act and the proposed
04:54:11.760measures would have been relevant information to have before you at the irg meetings and the cabinet
04:54:17.120meetings where the invocation of the emergencies act was discussed and debated um thank you for
04:54:22.880the question uh and as a former uh intergovernmental relations minister um i understand it and i really
04:54:35.760do understand the importance and sometimes the challenges of that federal provincial relationship
04:54:41.600In this particular situation, it was a very complex, fast-developing situation, and each minister was responsible for managing a series of relationships and bringing that information to the table.
04:55:01.840My colleague, Dominic LeBlanc, is an extremely able minister, an extremely able intergovernmental affairs minister, and I relied on him, as did everyone around the table, to manage that relationship and to bring to us and to the table his knowledge of the views of the provinces and territories.
04:55:26.860and with your knowledge that they weren't consulted or about the emergencies act or told
04:55:33.020until the morning of february the 14th that the emergencies act might be invoked wouldn't you agree
04:55:38.780that the information on their views on the potential invocation of the emergencies act
04:55:42.940wasn't before the cabinet or the irg it wasn't one of the items because it wasn't available
04:55:48.380until february the 14th in my view minister leblanc very effectively from what i could see
04:56:01.820very effectively communicated with the provinces and territories and communicated with us his
04:56:08.380what he learned from those conversations. That discussion that happened on the Monday
04:56:18.300was important. I wasn't part of that discussion, but it happened and it was important that it
04:56:24.000happened. And so the evidence that has been given before this inquiry is that the Emergencies Act
04:56:30.220had not been raised with any of the first ministers of the provinces of territories
04:56:35.220or any of the cabinet members of the provinces or territories.
04:56:39.660So wouldn't you agree with me that whatever information it was
04:56:42.200that Minister LeBlanc was bringing to the table,
04:56:44.680it did not involve discussions about the Federal Emergencies Act?
04:56:49.780Again, there, I would say this was an area of responsibility for Minister LeBlanc,
04:56:55.260who I do absolutely believe does that very difficult job very well.
04:57:01.200And I had confidence in how he did that job.
04:57:38.360And the section that I'd like to draw your attention to is close to the top.
04:57:41.320It's the portion that reads from DPM, which I picked to be indicating that this is what
04:57:46.980you said on the call as deputy prime minister would be dpm is that correct i think so okay thank
04:57:53.540you and then uh the there's a paragraph that begins first and then the next little paragraph
04:57:59.540says the rcmp has told us they have heard from protesters as they were leaving the blockades
04:58:05.380but they did so because their family said their accounts were frozen so get the hell out of there
04:58:10.260this is a much better and peaceful way to end things now freezing someone's bank account without
04:58:16.260due process engages their personal rights and it also engages the personal rights of the families
04:58:20.980that shared many of those bank accounts individuals who weren't even at the protest
04:58:25.940you've stated uh here in this document that your view was that this is better and more peaceful
04:58:33.140presumably than using the existing legal authorities which multiple branches of law
04:58:37.460enforcement have testified that this inquiry were adequate to bring a peaceful end to the protests
04:58:42.500and indeed they did so using those authorities so do you still hold that view today that freezing
04:58:48.740the accounts was a better solution than law enforcement carrying out its legal authorities
04:58:54.500in the responsible manner that they do the view that i do hold uh as we discussed earlier today
04:59:03.460is one of my very grave concerns about bringing these illegal blockades and this illegal occupation
04:59:13.460to an end was the danger that there would be violence and that there would be violence
04:59:19.140directed towards the protesters. I was particularly concerned because of reports
04:59:26.040that children were present and that was one of the reasons that i felt the financial
04:59:39.020tools that were put in place by the emergencies act were a better option from my perspective
04:59:47.880the job of these tools was to create a peaceful, nonviolent incentive for people who were doing
05:00:00.660something illegal to leave. And I think those tools did work. And so I would just remind you
05:00:08.980in that regard that the call that we're looking at this readout from in front of us was held on
05:00:13.440that were the 21st and so at that time the coots blockade we can scroll up to the top of the
05:00:19.000document we have monday february the 21st and you say it's hard to believe uh it was only a week
05:00:27.480ago we were on a call last sunday which was february the 13th talking about this so this is a
05:00:32.500call that was held on february the 21st after the enforcement actions had been taken out at coots
05:00:37.080which were done before the emergencies act was invoked after the ambassador bridge was cleared
05:00:41.420which was before the emergencies act was invoked and while the enforcement efforts in ottawa were
05:00:45.660well underway and you would have had the knowledge at that time that there was peaceful resolution
05:00:50.860by law enforcement at both of those border blockades and that there was no violence against
05:00:57.580children and it was a peaceful resolution by law enforcement in ottawa and so with respect
05:01:05.660to those comments about uh the fear of the prospect of violence i don't i don't know that uh
05:01:12.940on the timeline of february 21st are you saying you still had them then and you would still have
05:01:17.020those today no not at all on and so you express this view after no may i explain absolutely i
05:01:28.220didn't realize you were talking i apologize no problem it can be hard on the video calls
05:01:32.460So on February 21st, when I made those comments, it was looking back on the events of the week that had passed.
05:01:44.440And I certainly believed then, and I believe today, that the financial tools we put in place aided in the peaceful resolution of all of those occupations and blockades.
05:02:01.300The reports that we heard, the reports that were in the media, the reports from law enforcement were that many people did leave as a result of the incentives created by those tools.
05:02:15.720And then the final thing that I think is important to emphasize is we said on February 14th, we are putting these tools in place, so please leave now.
05:02:29.280so that these tools never need to be used so any person who had their account frozen
05:02:37.480had due warning that they were engaged in illegal activity and that they should stop doing that
05:02:47.200activity and the other thing that i would point to that i think did work well is the accounts
05:02:54.980were very quickly unfrozen after the illegal activity ceased.
05:02:59.060And with respect to the due warning, there were, as you acknowledged in your earlier testimony,
05:03:05.380accounts of families, individuals who weren't present at the protests that were also
05:03:10.180frozen. Would your view be the same with respect to those individuals?
05:03:13.060again there um that was never the intent that to in any way affect family members
05:03:29.460certainly the consequence the reality of people having joint bank accounts um made that
05:03:37.940impossible to entirely avoid but i would say that the family members whose presence at the protest
05:03:53.300at the illegal occupation and blockades caused the accounts to be frozen had a very easy readily
05:04:00.660available remedy with a lot of notice they could have left before the freezing began and as soon
05:04:07.860as people did leave the accounts were unfrozen thank you minister those are my questions today
05:04:14.260okay thank you uh next i'd like to call on the city of ottawa please
05:04:21.140uh the city has ceded its time to the government of canada
05:08:39.860So we've heard a number of witnesses recommend that the frameworks and laws to protect critical infrastructure should be studied and strengthened. Do you agree?
05:08:49.220Would you also agree that Windsor is not only a stakeholder in debriefing the lessons learned and in developing these frameworks, but also an important partner?
05:09:00.360Yes, Windsor is definitely an important partner.
05:09:02.980Okay, thank you. Those are all my questions.
05:15:03.480The third paragraph begins, if you become aware of potential customer involvement in blockades, occupations, and other supportive activity related to the Freedom Convoy, you must submit a tip to the Customer Diligence Center, brackets CDC.
05:15:17.620So, this is the morning of February 23rd, and we know that the order was no longer in place later that day because, of course, the emergency declaration was revoked on February 23rd later that day. Is that fair, Minister?
05:15:36.460Okay. I'd just like us to scroll down to page 5 of the PDF now, please. And this should be an email dated February 25th. Yes, there it is.
05:15:47.620So we see this as an email dated February 25th with the subject Emergencies Act Customers Identified.
05:15:54.920And the content of the email indicates that the sender is telling the recipient that they'd like to follow up regarding customers that have been identified as possibly participating in the 2022 Freedom Convoy.
05:16:07.940So we've agreed, I think, or we can agree that as of February 25th, there was no requirement under the order to conduct this follow up. Is that fair?
05:21:49.440And if you see there, the statement says, the CTA does not support and strongly disapproves
05:22:02.340of any protests on public roadways, highways, and bridges.
05:22:09.440CTA believes such actions, especially those that interfere with public safety, are not
05:22:33.620how disagreements uh with governments should be expressed uh were you aware of that being
05:22:42.260the position of the canadian truckers association at the time yes i was
05:22:48.020and indeed if we could go to ssm.can.50987
05:22:54.820this is a letter dated february 10th 2022 again from the canadian truckers association
05:23:06.340and in this letter the canadian truckers association is asking the federal government
05:23:10.980to take action uh to address the issue with the border blockades or were you aware it's a letter
05:23:16.980addressed to the prime minister and uh minister al gabra but i'll just ask were you aware of the
05:23:23.140canadian truckers association making such a request at the time i can't pretend to have memorized
05:23:32.100the exact date and content of the letter but i was aware that minister al gabra was in touch
05:23:38.980with uh the truckers association and that they were very concerned okay so if we talk about
05:23:46.100economic impacts for a moment um you discussed with commission council earlier the uh a bloomberg
05:23:57.220a briefing and as well a bloomberg article um if we could just pull up the news article uh com
05:24:05.060five zeros eight three nine please and if we could go to the third page of that document when it's
05:24:13.780ready this is the news article and apart from the uh reference to the 0.1 percent that you
05:24:18.900were discussing uh earlier uh there are some discuss there are some um uh reporting in here
05:24:27.220about other uh individuals that were commenting on the situation the border blockades at the time
05:24:33.540And if you look under the heading there, we don't need this, there's a quote attributed to the Governor of the Bank of Canada, Tiff Macklem, that was made on the Wednesday, so that would have been the day before this article, so on Wednesday, February 9th,
05:24:59.540in which the governor of the bank of canada noted uh that we were having
05:25:07.620we've already got a strained global supply chain we don't need this in reference to the border
05:25:13.140blockade do you remember being aware of the comments of the governor of bank of canada at the
05:25:17.300time i absolutely do and that's in my timeline i think it's in my notebook that when we spoke
05:25:27.380earlier today about concerns around achieving a soft landing for the canadian economy concerns
05:25:36.180about rising inflation concerns about the rise in interest rates which the bank of canada uh
05:25:48.340with which the bank of canada would respond to rising inflation that was very much on my mind
05:25:54.020and i mentioned that we had already had a january inflation number which was elevated
05:26:01.220we expected inflation we expected an elevated number well the january the number that we had
05:26:07.860in january was for december we expected in february to learn of an elevated number for january
05:26:13.460we were aware that the bank was concerned and that made us concerned definitely okay so you spoke
05:26:22.180earlier about some of your concerns around comments by public officials in the united
05:26:26.740states i'd just like to go through the timeline of some of those statements because i think we've
05:26:31.140heard a bit about them but i think it's helpful to look at actually sure and if i could just say
05:26:34.580one more thing on the bank of canada that was that wasn't in an interview with bloomberg
05:26:38.900governor macklem spoke at a press conference about it so that was widely reported no indeed
05:26:43.940that was just one instance of a document that's in the record that records that statement
05:26:47.540So February 7th, we know, is the day that the blockade begins at the Ambassador Bridge.
05:26:59.280And so on February 9th, this is day three, that's the date of those comments by the Governor
05:28:34.940I remember when that came out very, very clearly. And, you know, what was being publicly said
05:28:45.780by U.S. officials, all of it worried me. But I think if I had to identify for people here
05:28:56.000one particular line that worried me the most it's those two sentences um and in particular it
05:29:05.180doesn't matter if it's an adversary or an ally we can't be this reliant on parts coming from
05:29:11.160foreign countries that is a huge threat to canada's entire auto sector and and the point
05:29:22.940especially there that she's underscoring adversary or ally because the point that we had been making
05:29:32.620and actually we made successfully for example with the 232 steel and aluminum tariffs was those were
05:29:40.100inappropriately levied against canada by the u.s because we were an ally and so you could rely on
05:29:47.920us and that point there is saying you know what you shouldn't differentiate between for example
05:29:57.280canada and china the united states is equally at risk if it has an economic dependency
05:30:04.800and having u.s elected representatives assert that publicly and connect it to this blockade
05:30:14.640and say look by relying on canada you're going to lose your job that was very very dangerous for us
05:30:21.920and i will also just point out um this was a democratic member of the michigan delegation
05:30:31.040and i think later on um in the tweet representative slotkin talks about being in touch with the white
05:30:38.560house these were the people that the white house was talking to about this situation but also about
05:30:47.040the ev incentives and their views mattered very very much and and on the white house point if we
05:30:55.600look just further down this page uh the last line on this page of the document it's a headline from
05:31:01.360an article from the detroit news white house worried worries about ambassador bridge blockade
05:31:08.480and that article we don't need to go through the text but it references a statement by
05:31:13.120uh then press secretary jen saki uh commenting on uh white house concern
05:31:20.080and i take it you were aware of the of those comments at the time as well yes i was
05:31:24.880And so then if we go to February 10th, that's day four of the blockades,
05:31:33.200Commission Council mentioned earlier that the Department of Finance prepared an economic
05:31:38.160analysis on February 10th that day, and we looked at it the other day with the Department of Finance
05:31:44.240officials, and that backgrounder noted that at that time, as of the fourth day,
05:31:54.880There were auto plant shutdowns at Ford, Stellantis, and Toyota plants that were caused by the Ambassador Bridge blockade.
05:32:08.760Were you aware of that and were you surprised at how quickly those shutdowns occurred?
05:32:13.520um i was aware of that and we spoke earlier this morning about my conversation that day the 10th
05:32:24.720of february with brian deese where he said and i can't recall exactly but something like another
05:32:30.88012 hours and all the northeast will shut down so i was aware of the impact and at some level
05:32:41.520i wasn't surprised because i did know i knew two things that the auto sector is so hugely
05:32:49.280integrated and you know the u.s plants are dependent on us but we're also dependent on
05:32:55.040the u.s plants those parts go across six times right um so i knew that and the other thing
05:33:03.280which i think reese mendes spoke to you guys about but is very true is the auto sector operates
05:33:11.040on a just-in-time production process they don't like to hold big stores of parts because that's
05:33:21.280expensive and so the industry requires very reliable and very speedy supply chains and if
05:33:32.000there's a break in them yes it stops production so i knew that intellectually um i would say though
05:33:41.040at a kind of emotional level, it still, you know, was breathtaking how quickly it had happened,
05:33:52.000how quickly the effect mounted, how swift the political impact was. And I think that was the
05:33:59.700case also for the White House. And that was reflected in my Brian Deese conversation where
05:34:05.000he sort of said, yeah, you've been telling us about the integration, but now I really see it.
05:34:11.040And so you mentioned you spoke to Brian Deese, and part of that was setting up a call with the president, between the president and the prime minister, which then took place the following day.
05:34:22.880What was your reaction when you heard that the call, that that call had taken place the next day after you'd begun the process to set it up?
05:34:33.240So I was glad that the conversation happened because I knew it was important and valuable for the prime minister to have a chance to explain the situation, to discuss the situation directly with the president.
05:34:50.660So that was good. And I had asked Brian for that call to happen. But at another level, I was quite concerned by how quickly the call was set up, because the speed of response spoke to me about the degree of concern.
05:35:09.900um we've heard earlier in this proceeding about a statement that was released by governor with
05:35:16.940governor whitmer on february 10th um there was another a second statement that
05:35:23.580governor whitmer released on february 11th um and if we could just
05:35:32.300uh pull that one up it's pb.can.401840
05:35:45.100and as part of that statement uh governor whitmer said we cannot allow another minute to go by
05:35:52.380unnecessarily calling on the canadian government to act um was it unusual for the governor for
05:35:58.300governor whitner to be issuing two statements on the same topic one day after the next uh very
05:36:06.460unusual and her the content of her statement um was also very striking so she makes the point
05:36:23.420first of all that she is talking to the white house she's talking to the congressional delegation
05:36:30.940the people who we've been speaking about there is a real concerted push um and then
05:36:38.620i can't quite see it um here yeah this um we can't let another minute go by um unnecessarily
05:36:48.780That was also striking to me and speaks to how I perceived, and I believe rightly, the economic situation, that every minute, every hour counted, that the situation was deteriorating really hour by hour, and Canada was being very harmed.
05:37:16.940And so that speaks to why I believed, and I think it was the right judgment, we needed to act really swiftly.
05:37:29.200And if we fast forward then to after the events of January and February, have you heard anything from business leaders since that time about the impacts of the blockades?
05:37:44.860I have. And I'll give you a couple of examples. PDAC is a big annual Toronto mining conference. If you're in the mining industry, you will have heard of it. It's famous among miners, and Canada is rightly proud to host it every year and to be the mining capital of the world.
05:38:14.860PDAC this year, because of COVID restrictions, it's normally held in the winter, but it was
05:38:20.440held in June. And at PDAC in Toronto in June, Jonathan Wilkinson, the Minister of Natural
05:38:27.540Resources, and I convened a table to talk about critical minerals and metals and electric vehicles.
05:38:37.180and one thing that really struck me was and we had sort of miners there processors and also car
05:38:47.140companies and car parts people sort of the full circle of that sector um one of the people there
05:38:54.220the canadian ceo of a japanese car company um proactively sort of went around the table everyone
05:39:02.000raised their points about critical minerals and metals and evs and opportunities in canada
05:39:07.020And this CEO, who is a guy whose job is to get his Japanese headquarters to invest in Canada, and he raised in his remarks, I think it was the first thing he said, I'm still getting questions around the blockades and the occupation.
05:39:30.280And I need to be able to say to my headquarters in Japan that this is not going to happen again in Canada, that they can be confident that that access to the U.S. market is not going to be impeded.
05:39:48.420So that was very striking to me, that still in June, even after our action, which worked, there were still those lingering concerns.
05:40:01.640And it made me glad that we had acted when we did and not later.
05:40:05.680um and then in just in october uh i was in windsor um which we've heard so much about earlier today
05:40:16.380um speaking about the economy actually at a big car parts event and one of uh the car
05:40:26.320industry journalists uh asked me a question um and i'm you know it's it's on the public record
05:40:34.180exactly what he said, but I'm just recalling broadly. His question was basically, can you
05:40:42.380offer assurances that something like the convoy and the blockade won't happen again? It continues
05:40:49.040to be a major concern in the car industry here. And again, I was surprised that someone in October
05:40:59.560was still asking the question and it was further evidence to me of how serious the threat had been
05:41:12.680and you know while taking very seriously um the magnitude of our action um and the reluctance
05:41:23.480that any government should have on ultimately acting as we did that question was a confirmation
05:41:31.400for me that there was very great harm um that was in the process of being done and i was glad that
05:41:38.920we acted to stop the harm thank you shifting gears if we talk about the economic measures for
05:41:45.000My friend from the Government of Alberta put it to you that there was no need to adopt the economic measures,
05:41:56.000that police had adequate tools to clear the blockades without them.
05:42:02.000I take it that you did not direct the Commissioner of the RCMP to use any of the tools made available
05:42:12.000in the Emergency Economic Measures Order?
05:46:46.020in the ordinary way of things for leaders of big Canadian businesses to want the government
05:46:59.780to do more in the economy. I would say quite the contrary. And at this particular moment,
05:47:10.320the banks had reason to not be so happy about things the government was doing.
05:47:17.260This followed our election, during which we had campaigned on the 15% COVID recovery dividend,
05:47:24.660which would be levied on banks and financial institutions, and we had campaigned on a permanent
05:47:29.800tax on the banks. So I would guess, and you could speak to them, but I would guess that if you had
05:47:38.360spoken to the bank CEOs at the beginning of January and said, would you like the Liberal
05:47:44.140government to take a more active position when it comes to economic management of Canada,
05:47:52.680They would say, no, we wouldn't like that, and we would certainly like them not to impose these taxes.
05:47:59.320So I just say that because the fact that they were saying the tools were not adequate and you need to do more was particularly compelling to me because they were not a constituency that was inclined to seek strong government action in the economy.
05:48:22.680Just on the Fox News point that you just mentioned, in the Commission's overview report on fundraising, they trace the flow of funds through the crowdfunding platforms and show that there was a million dollars raised through the GoFundMe campaign that was paid into a TD bank account and that TD froze that account on Thursday, February 10th, so before the phone call.
05:48:48.120and we uh there's uh so the fox news coverage when it says on the uh readout of there having
05:48:56.520been fox news coverage that friday of a of an incident you're aware that was in reference to
05:49:02.360td freezing that uh the million dollars from the gofundme campaign yeah that makes sense
05:49:08.840um that makes sense that it was barat masrani speaking and uh barat masrani that would be the
05:49:14.600ceo of td bank yes and uh so the concern was putting on any individual bank the back the
05:49:22.600potential for backlash of uh public opinion of taking that step yes that was the concern um as
05:49:32.200we have also discussed already today a concern about tellers um being in jeopardy um and the
05:49:40.440Fox News reference there is especially significant because many Canadian banks have significant
05:49:49.320operations in the United States. And so having Fox News attack you isn't a problem only because
05:50:01.380Canadians might be watching. But if you have a big U.S. operation, it's a problem because your
05:50:07.080American customers will be watching. And I do think that was a problem that was legitimate
05:50:16.580to raise, and I was concerned about it. And so just briefly to conclude, earlier you
05:50:23.060mentioned that you had relied on certain legal advice related to matters connected with this
05:50:29.800inquiry. I just want to confirm with you, as Deputy Prime Minister, you don't have the authority
05:50:35.540to waive solicitor client privilege on behalf of the government of canada and you weren't attending
05:50:39.540intending to do so i was not intending to do so and to be clear i was speaking about the advice
05:50:47.540we received which i think the commission some of which i think the commission has heard about um
05:50:55.140earlier from officials thank you those are my questions thank you commissioner
05:51:10.820Okay, well thank you very much for attending and for your testimony. We know you probably have other things to do but I appreciate your coming here and taking the Commission's work seriously.
05:51:27.820um i guess i should say thank you very much and i will say to you commissioner and all the lawyers
05:51:36.460doing this work um i do think it's really important work and it's important for canadians to be able to
05:51:45.100see and hear you asking the government and other people questions about this very important and
05:51:50.700serious decision. Okay, thank you. We'll take a short break. It should only be five minutes or so,
05:51:58.860but I'll, if it takes longer, they'll let me know. Thank you.