Juno News - Conservative Leadership Series： Roman Baber

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:05.620 This is the Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:00:10.680 Coming up, we talk to former Ontario MPP, now Conservative leadership candidate, Roman Babber.

00:00:16.900 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.

00:00:21.340 Hey everyone, welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show, the Andrew Lawton Show, here on True North, Wednesday, June 29th, 2022.

00:00:30.440 Continuing in this episode, our Conservative Leadership Series.

00:00:34.760 Now, as the name suggests, I know, a very unoriginal title, we are doing a series of interviews with all of the Conservative leadership candidates.

00:00:43.120 Many of them, in fact, almost all of them, we spoke to them as they announced in some form or another, some a couple of times.

00:00:49.060 But we're doing it this time around to do lengthy, in-depth, sit-down interviews with them.

00:00:54.000 We're making sure they're all in person to really get at the meat of some of the issues that have dominated their campaigns.

00:01:00.000 And also issues that some people have said are conspicuously absent from their campaigns or from the leadership race as a whole.

00:01:07.360 We started off the series a couple of weeks ago with Jean Charest.

00:01:10.920 Last week, we spoke to Patrick Brown.

00:01:13.800 This week, we have my sit-down interview with former Ontario MPP, Roman Babber.

00:01:19.120 Now, I realize Ontario is the only province with MPPs, and I forget that as an Ontarian.

00:01:24.140 So, if you're from Alberta or BC, it's an MLA.

00:01:27.460 If you're from Quebec, it's an MNA.

00:01:29.800 And what is it in Newfoundland?

00:01:31.180 I think it's an MHA in Newfoundland.

00:01:33.620 Pardon me if I'm getting that wrong.

00:01:35.320 But he's an MPP in Ontario, where he was up until the most recent election, which he did not stand for to seek re-election in that.

00:01:43.560 Now, he's focusing his efforts on the Conservative leadership race.

00:01:47.500 Now, Roman and I spoke in a previous interview about what he said is the need for democratic conservatism,

00:01:53.540 to put democracy front and centre in the political process and in the Conservative Party.

00:01:58.160 We talked about that in a little bit more detail, and also some of the specific policies that he wants to bring to the table.

00:02:04.620 This is my conversation, recorded last week with Conservative leadership candidate, Roman Babber.

00:02:10.340 Former Ontario MPP, Roman Babber.

00:02:12.880 Mr. Babber, good to talk to you again.

00:02:14.180 Good to be with you, Andrew.

00:02:15.280 Let's start with your place in this race right now.

00:02:18.620 You obviously have been in provincial politics.

00:02:20.440 You've been elected at the riding level before.

00:02:22.980 How has the adjustment been to campaigning nationally to a whole country?

00:02:27.160 It's been a remarkable experience, and it's not over yet.

00:02:31.340 I think, by all accounts, we have exceeded expectations.

00:02:34.020 In terms of a national campaign, you certainly learn a few things that you previously haven't anticipated,

00:02:39.320 such as you probably need to be in better shape than I'd like to be, so less junk food on the road.

00:02:45.460 Also, you know, and this is not a politician pandering.

00:02:50.340 Andrew, I got to see so many remote corners of our country.

00:02:53.700 It's a truly beautiful country.

00:02:54.980 And so, generally, we're having a good time.

00:02:57.800 Our message is resonating with Canadians, and we look forward to a strong finish.

00:03:01.600 What would you say the core message of your campaign is?

00:03:05.700 Well, from day one, it's always been about defending and restoring Canada's democracy.

00:03:10.540 As you know, I'm of the view that Canada's democracy is under assault.

00:03:14.460 It's quickly eroding before our eyes, whether it's the censorship, the unlawful invocation of the Emergencies Act.

00:03:19.920 Just yesterday, we heard of the RCMP commissioner potentially assisting the prime minister politically.

00:03:26.120 It's unheard of in a democratic society.

00:03:29.460 And so, I am very, very concerned about the erosion of democracy.

00:03:34.140 And this is not just in Canada.

00:03:35.700 This is in our parliaments.

00:03:37.020 This is among our regulators.

00:03:39.280 And so, I am the democracy candidate.

00:03:41.500 I insist on the fact that we have to, in order for us to get back to fully normal, we have to restore and strengthen our democratic institutions.

00:03:51.860 You mentioned the story about the RCMP and what looks like the RCMP commissioner running political interference for Justin Trudeau and the government.

00:04:00.980 We've seen this song and dance a number of times before, whether it was SNC-Lavalin, We Charity, and now the RCMP, and other scandals that probably escape me right now.

00:04:10.800 Would your first order of business coming in as prime minister to clean house effectively on, you know, any civil servants that you feel are in these positions?

00:04:19.080 I think a commissioner lucky has some thinking to do.

00:04:23.360 If, indeed, she sought to assist the government politically in that she sought details of a pending investigation where the investigators were very clear with her and said,

00:04:34.200 no, it's not in the interest of the investigation to release those details.

00:04:37.280 But she insisted to use her office to assist the government's legislative agenda, then I'm not sure how she can survive or stay in her current role. 0.99

00:04:46.180 So, but of course, the idea is that once we form government, we will, of course, change management.

00:04:57.320 When you want to fix a defunct company or a bad situation, you bring in new management.

00:05:01.960 That's certainly something that I intend to do.

00:05:04.000 But beyond that, I think that this is no longer a partisan issue.

00:05:08.940 This is a very serious breach of the people's trust.

00:05:11.560 But I think it's time for the prime minister to also do some serious thinking as to whether he remains viable.

00:05:18.140 Your competitor in this race, Pierre Poilievre, has ruffles and feathers for saying that he would get in there and fire the Bank of Canada governor.

00:05:24.220 So when you talk about needing a change in management, who are you talking about if you are speaking about specific people or more broadly specific roles?

00:05:32.660 Well, the RCMP commissioner certainly comes to mind.

00:05:36.800 Dr. Tam, as I've said, I will fire Dr. Tam on day one because I believe that our pandemic response were an object failure.

00:05:42.920 Look, I think a prime minister, whether it's Pierre or myself or any one of us, are entitled to replace important roles with personnel that they believe project the vision and the ideology.

00:05:59.280 And I think that this team of managers has failed Canadians.

00:06:04.760 On the Bank of Canada specifically, which is an issue that I hope we raise for this interview, I'm very concerned that the current direction of the Bank of Canada is also political.

00:06:15.100 Most of the inflation we're seeing out there has been driven by a lack of supply.

00:06:19.520 We have a supply problem, not an overheated demand problem.

00:06:22.840 Most of the inflation stems from energy prices and food prices.

00:06:26.420 So I'm not sure that aggressive rate hikes are actually going to get us out of this inflation.

00:06:32.080 Instead, they're going to increase the cost of living by increasing the cost of borrowing.

00:06:36.960 And so I'm very worried that the Bank of Canada is again acting politically and that it feels this inflationary drive and is going to get us into trouble by raising too much too fast.

00:06:49.060 Most people, I think certainly anyone who's been to a grocery store in the last year knows this is a real problem.

00:06:55.600 I mean, we've seen the data to back this up record levels, but you shouldn't need to wait for these numbers to see what Canadians are seeing.

00:07:03.320 What is the solution if it's not the rate increase hikes that we're seeing from the Bank of Canada?

00:07:08.160 What is the solution that you would bring us, Prime Minister?

00:07:11.700 So first of all, we need to appreciate how this came about in order to solve it.

00:07:16.160 And I believe that most of it stems from lockdowns and our COVID response.

00:07:20.700 We stopped the global supply chain at its tracks.

00:07:23.580 And now demand has resparked.

00:07:25.340 And essentially supply is not catching up to demand.

00:07:28.640 So you see price increase.

00:07:31.020 Number two, I think you have a mental health pandemic.

00:07:33.840 Our workforce is experiencing a post-trauma.

00:07:37.840 I hear this from small business employers, from all sorts of employers.

00:07:40.420 People are simply not back to work.

00:07:42.840 So we need to try and get through this episode.

00:07:46.260 We need to provide the market with certainty that we're never going to lock down again.

00:07:50.040 The pandemic response is behind us.

00:07:52.680 We need to encourage people to go back to work.

00:07:55.220 Let's go back to work.

00:07:56.560 Let's bring everyone back to work.

00:07:59.540 Unvaccinated, those that made a different medical choice. 0.72

00:08:02.820 And let's start giving the market stability again.

00:08:05.620 And the second element is, most of what you see is driven by now is natural resources.

00:08:11.640 If you look at my social media today, I referenced Dan McTague, who said, look, it just came up.

00:08:18.540 It caught up with us.

00:08:19.880 We refused to develop our natural resources for the last decade or so.

00:08:24.280 COVID shut us down.

00:08:25.840 COVID ended.

00:08:27.060 Demand was sparked.

00:08:27.800 And our need for energy is simply not catching up with supply.

00:08:32.160 We need, I propose to turn Canada into a natural resources superpower.

00:08:36.340 We need to telegraph to the market that we're serious about our natural resources, that it will immediately provide us some relief.

00:08:42.080 No more lockdowns.

00:08:43.120 You're not going to get disagreement from me.

00:08:44.580 That's what the future of the country should be.

00:08:47.100 But we'd also be remiss to not address that most of the lockdowns, in the sense of what they were to Canadians, emanated from the provincial level.

00:08:55.060 Whether it was in Alberta, Ontario, Quebec, or so on.

00:08:58.000 So you, as a federal leader, I mean, certainly you'd have a say over the federal mandates like exist for air travel and some federally regulated sectors.

00:09:06.220 But how do you stand as a leader federally and stop provinces from locking people down?

00:09:12.300 So the tone emanates from Ottawa, even though it's the actual provinces that engaged in the response.

00:09:20.220 Justin Trudeau, Theresa Tam, they were the drivers of this policy.

00:09:24.520 And they also provided the fiscal aid on the other side to encourage provinces to, in fact, lock down.

00:09:31.900 So first of all, you withhold.

00:09:33.620 You withhold all federal funding that may potentially encourage provinces to lock down.

00:09:39.540 That's number one.

00:09:39.980 Number two, I think you present ANU's data.

00:09:43.160 You change the narrative about what transpired.

00:09:45.140 It's long overdue, right?

00:09:46.580 We know that more than 80% of those that regretfully passed away were in long-term care homes.

00:09:50.240 Let's protect long-term care homes in congregate settings.

00:09:52.900 Let's talk about the fact that, by some estimates, close to two-thirds of Canadians already had COVID.

00:09:57.560 In other words, we don't just have very high natural immunity.

00:10:00.620 The virus is a lot more transmissible than we thought.

00:10:03.420 And that was always my point, that the metrics that we're worried about are actually not as bad as we thought,

00:10:07.540 because so many more people had COVID.

00:10:09.500 And finally, I think we need to end this fear, this fear-mongering that was coming from all levels of government,

00:10:21.780 get everyone back to work, end this airport catastrophe, the passport office catastrophe.

00:10:28.320 I just saw an article saying that there's still a lot of, I think it was your article,

00:10:32.520 that there are a lot of folks in the passport office that are missing because they made a different medical choice.

00:10:37.720 Let's end this and allow us to get back to normal.

00:10:40.860 You talked about the benefits that the federal government was providing to respond to lockdowns or perhaps to urge on lockdowns.

00:10:49.140 I want to make sure we're abundantly clear here.

00:10:50.940 So you're saying that CERB, the Canadian Emergency Response Benefit, or Ciba, the business loan that the government put forward,

00:10:58.340 these are programs that shouldn't have existed.

00:10:59.960 I'm saying that our COVID response should have been rethought after May 2020 because we realized that, number one,

00:11:08.100 most of the risk is in long-term care homes, so we should focus our response in current settings.

00:11:12.060 But you said the benefits were urging lockdowns on.

00:11:14.680 So do you think those benefits shouldn't have existed?

00:11:16.440 I'm saying that we should have withheld and we should have ended the COVID response as we knew it to be after the first lockdown

00:11:24.500 once we understood that the metrics are much different than we thought.

00:11:27.060 The problem is we continue to behave for two years as if we're still in March or April 2020, and that was needless

00:11:33.820 because not only did we realize where the risk is, we realized that the infection rate is so high

00:11:38.060 that the hospitalization rate, the death rate from COVID are thankfully a lot lower,

00:11:43.400 especially our children were not at risk.

00:11:45.120 We should not have shut down our schools.

00:11:46.960 But it's those benefits, in fact, that, in my view, have now created a long-term issue in the labor force.

00:11:52.540 After, Andrew, after the CERB, the government brought on all sorts of EI programs

00:11:59.260 to allow people to continue not to work.

00:12:02.080 And a lot of young people especially are having difficulty, having the mental difficulty to go back to work.

00:12:08.340 This is one of the greatest issues facing our nation right now.

00:12:11.340 People don't want to work.

00:12:12.340 I think that this COVID exercise, this response for two years, has left them not just with a post-trauma,

00:12:19.060 but also changed our working habits.

00:12:21.420 We're not going to tackle supply issues.

00:12:24.080 We're not going to tackle inflation until we restore our work ethic and our productivity.

00:12:29.220 Just speaking of the economic strain on Canadians right now,

00:12:33.100 you and I had a brief Twitter exchange a little while ago about supply management,

00:12:36.780 and I'm glad that you did take a stand and correct what I had claimed was incorrect there,

00:12:41.420 that there had only been one leadership candidate talking about that.

00:12:44.320 There are two.

00:12:45.020 You and Scott Acheson, who have said supply management of the dairy sector in particular is a problem.

00:12:50.480 And this is, pardon the pun, the sacred cow for so many conservatives that they just won't go near it,

00:12:55.500 and liberals as well.

00:12:56.520 But conservatives, I think, in particular have to own up to this

00:12:59.560 because they're the party of free markets and letting the market decide and consumers decide.

00:13:04.920 Why is this such a difficult issue to get conservative MPs to publicly,

00:13:11.000 many privately will say it, but to publicly say they want to make a change here?

00:13:15.040 Politics.

00:13:16.040 Politics is the rot on government.

00:13:17.920 It's the rot on policy.

00:13:19.500 People are afraid that politically we can't get away from supply management.

00:13:24.020 A lot of our rural, a lot of our farming base relies on supply management.

00:13:27.940 But I think that we've got to do what's right by Canadians.

00:13:30.340 And that means not hindering supply, not spilling out milk,

00:13:33.840 but encouraging the production of dairy products.

00:13:36.380 It's not just good for the consumer by way of prices.

00:13:39.120 It might also benefit us because we should be exporting Canadian dairy.

00:13:42.820 And so I think it makes completely no sense.

00:13:45.060 I'm against Canadian socialism.

00:13:46.600 I'm against central planning.

00:13:48.280 I don't think that you should have a dairy council,

00:13:51.460 a bunch of folks that decide how much milk should cost.

00:13:54.560 I think the market should decide how much milk should cost.

00:13:58.140 That's how we've thrived as a Western free enterprise civilization.

00:14:01.700 I'd like to see Canada go in that direction.

00:14:03.980 And it's particularly important, right?

00:14:05.840 Some of my competitors are talking about gatekeepers.

00:14:07.700 These are the quintessential gatekeepers in the dairy market.

00:14:11.560 And when we have an inflationary situation where you have, as they say,

00:14:15.600 too much money, not chasing enough goods,

00:14:17.320 let's increase the supply of goods, all goods,

00:14:19.860 to give the market and the consumer some relief.

00:14:22.960 So how do you pay for it, though?

00:14:24.640 Because obviously, I'm assuming, and you can correct me if I'm wrong,

00:14:27.040 you don't want to leave the farmers that have bought into the system

00:14:29.960 and invested in quota high and dry.

00:14:32.140 So the ranges of estimates we've heard on what it would cost

00:14:35.660 to transition away from supply management have been in the tens of billions.

00:14:39.500 So where does that money come from?

00:14:41.260 Do you put a tax on dairy until it's paid off?

00:14:43.560 Do you go into debt to do it?

00:14:44.900 What's the plan?

00:14:45.560 So we'll come up with a concrete plan once we're able to sit with all the stakeholders.

00:14:50.200 But you should certainly give a little bit more comfort to people

00:14:53.140 who planned their businesses around supply management.

00:14:56.740 So what I would propose is instead of cutting it on day one,

00:14:59.360 we have to phase it out gradually.

00:15:01.880 We can look at potentially some compensation.

00:15:06.200 We can look at amortization of equipment,

00:15:08.520 something that I think would make most sense under the current circumstances.

00:15:11.360 I think that if a Canadian wants to get out there and produce dairy products,

00:15:19.000 we should not be preventing them artificially from doing so.

00:15:22.020 You've paid a price in your own political career for speaking out against your party.

00:15:25.740 You were elected as a PC MPP and ended your term as an independent MPP.

00:15:31.180 You've spoken with me and elsewhere about the importance of free votes for caucus members

00:15:35.620 if you were the leader.

00:15:36.580 Are there any red lines that you wouldn't allow free votes on

00:15:41.340 where the caucus would be expected to hew to your position as leader or the party's position?

00:15:47.020 I explain this in, I teach a little bit of constitutional issues and criminal law topics.

00:15:53.440 And I'm often asked about free votes

00:15:56.640 and why shouldn't parliamentarians be able to vote all together as they wish.

00:16:01.260 And my response to that is, you're going to see a lot of what's happening in the United States,

00:16:05.800 which is trading and bartering for votes.

00:16:09.120 I can't have a member of parliament coming to me saying,

00:16:12.320 Roman, I'm not going to vote for your budget unless you build me a hospital.

00:16:16.340 Because then that's how you start creating waste

00:16:18.840 and what they refer to in the United States as pork.

00:16:22.900 It's not where I am going to draw the line.

00:16:25.900 It's where I will allow for free votes.

00:16:28.000 And that will always be on matters of conscience.

00:16:31.140 Andrew, I've been made to vote against my conscience in the past.

00:16:36.360 And that's the type of stomach pain that I'll never inflict on anyone.

00:16:39.980 If someone principally opposes something that my government wants to do,

00:16:45.020 I'll try to talk to them.

00:16:46.680 I'll have them over for breakfast.

00:16:48.280 But I will not punish them for voting their conscience.

00:16:52.580 But, I mean, a conscience.

00:16:53.580 I mean, you could have a conscientious belief of, theoretically,

00:16:56.080 anything that goes before parliament.

00:16:57.660 So, is it just on social and moral issues that you're talking about free votes?

00:17:01.420 I think that's what primarily we're referring to.

00:17:03.560 And I also think that the Conservative Party Constitution actually provides for that.

00:17:07.160 This is not novel.

00:17:08.140 This is, in fact, being in line with our policy document

00:17:12.180 that we tendered before the last election.

00:17:14.620 I believe it's Section 10, but I apologize if I'm wrong.

00:17:16.960 I think the disagreement within parliament is not just good for democracy.

00:17:22.780 It's good for public policy, right?

00:17:24.520 Whether you're a coach or you're a business manager,

00:17:28.380 you want to hear perspectives,

00:17:29.820 so you have a better appreciation of the baseline of opinion,

00:17:33.640 and then you land somewhere in between.

00:17:35.180 I mean, I'm not in favor of top-down parliamentary governance.

00:17:41.640 MPs, MPPs, they represent their constituents.

00:17:44.180 As I've said, I don't think they work for the boss.

00:17:47.240 They work for their constituents.

00:17:48.380 I'm going to respect that.

00:17:49.900 Is your plan to seek a seat as a Conservative MP

00:17:53.140 regardless of the outcome of the leadership race?

00:17:56.020 I don't know, Andrew.

00:17:58.340 Why not?

00:17:59.000 It's tough to tell, right?

00:18:05.180 I'm not sure, frankly,

00:18:06.820 and that's not the answer that my staff wants me to give

00:18:10.900 or my campaign wants me to give,

00:18:12.260 but I say it how it is.

00:18:15.960 I love our country.

00:18:17.420 I love Canadians.

00:18:18.880 I like politics a little less,

00:18:21.480 and part of me misses being a private citizen.

00:18:25.880 I was very, very blessed with the wonderful law practice

00:18:29.240 before I was elected.

00:18:31.920 Of course, the last couple of years

00:18:33.140 took a major toll on myself and my loved ones.

00:18:36.320 That's another thing that I'd like to consider.

00:18:38.960 But nonetheless,

00:18:40.980 I still think that there's a lot of fire in my belly,

00:18:43.920 and I'm very concerned about the state of our country right now.

00:18:48.760 And now it's not just our democracy.

00:18:51.040 It's our economy.

00:18:51.920 It's our way of life, I think, is really under attack.

00:18:54.220 And so I do feel that I have a responsibility towards Canadians

00:18:59.380 to continue and communicate sensibly issues

00:19:03.460 that are important to millions of Canadians

00:19:05.220 that go unaddressed.

00:19:06.620 We'll make a decision in the near future.

00:19:08.720 But look, I think we're doing well.

00:19:12.240 We see a path to winning.

00:19:14.040 Of course, we're reasonable,

00:19:15.740 and we appreciate that we're probably not in the first two positions,

00:19:19.320 but we're running a very competitive campaign.

00:19:21.360 One thing that has come up,

00:19:24.540 and I haven't seen you get into the mud like this, to your credit,

00:19:27.800 but there's been a lot of mudslinging in this race, 0.77

00:19:29.860 and certainly politics is about contrast,

00:19:32.120 and you're going to have divides and divisions.

00:19:34.120 Looking at the race itself, 0.97

00:19:35.960 do you see this as being more polarized

00:19:38.520 or less civil than other races internal to the party,

00:19:43.680 whether nominations or leaderships,

00:19:45.060 or do you think this is just par for the course,

00:19:47.660 what's happening in the leadership race right now?

00:19:49.360 I think there are a few episodes,

00:19:51.280 especially during the debates,

00:19:52.900 where leave for better decorum to be desired,

00:19:58.040 but that's not my place to comment on that.

00:20:01.480 I think it's important for the voters to see

00:20:03.680 and to appreciate what one might be like in a general election.

00:20:07.320 So I'm not sure that we should be censoring

00:20:09.220 the way that people conduct themselves.

00:20:11.140 No, we should be looking objectively at what people are doing,

00:20:14.500 and that's why we have these races,

00:20:17.280 is to evaluate us as respective candidates.

00:20:19.600 This is practice for the general election.

00:20:22.620 But I'd say something to the credit of all my friends,

00:20:26.040 and that is that I actually think that there are a lot

00:20:28.420 of substantive issues that have been raised throughout this race,

00:20:32.640 to our credit and to my friend's credit,

00:20:34.740 that there was an allegation during the 2017 leadership

00:20:40.840 that our party is lacking ideas.

00:20:43.140 Well, Andrew, that's not the case anymore.

00:20:45.520 I'm on record saying I'm going to end equalization.

00:20:48.760 None of the other candidates said that I'm against,

00:20:50.720 like I said, I'm against Canadian socialism.

00:20:53.080 I'm going to give a corresponding tax cut

00:20:54.920 that would have been $21 billion

00:20:56.220 if we look at last year's numbers.

00:20:59.180 I like the fact that Scott and I are talking about supply management.

00:21:02.300 I like the fact that there's a lot of discussion about housing

00:21:04.500 and material discussion about housing.

00:21:06.680 We have a disagreement on a variety of issues.

00:21:09.600 It's a vibrant race.

00:21:11.180 And, of course, the engagement in this race is great

00:21:14.960 because our country is facing these monumental issues.

00:21:18.700 I would also, if I may, I want to congratulate all my friends

00:21:21.920 on this record number of memberships that we signed.

00:21:24.600 We're bringing a huge amount of conservatives,

00:21:27.540 of new members to help us contest the next general election.

00:21:32.200 I'll end, I apologize, I'm a little wordy.

00:21:34.260 I'll end by saying I think it's important

00:21:36.220 that we continue a vibrant race,

00:21:38.940 but I'd encourage all my friends not to get to the point

00:21:42.460 where it would leave one or another candidate unviable

00:21:45.260 for the general election.

00:21:46.640 Looking at equalization for a moment,

00:21:49.300 as you well know, Albertans voted in a very significant number

00:21:52.660 to take to Ottawa the concerns about equalization

00:21:55.900 and that the formula is not fair for Albertans,

00:21:58.180 you're saying end it.

00:21:59.100 You're not saying tweak the formula.

00:22:00.420 You're saying get rid of it,

00:22:01.480 which you're a lawyer.

00:22:02.860 You know involves amending the Constitution.

00:22:04.980 Does it not?

00:22:06.000 Not necessarily.

00:22:06.820 How so?

00:22:07.580 Okay.

00:22:08.000 So the Constitution provides that the federal government

00:22:12.660 should look at equalization

00:22:13.840 in the event that provinces are enabled

00:22:17.840 to provide a comparable level of services.

00:22:19.920 So there's a test to meet in order to, in fact, pay equalization.

00:22:25.360 So I don't propose to Canada on day one.

00:22:27.520 I'm going to phase it out before the end of my first term.

00:22:31.040 And so we're going to have a good look

00:22:32.700 as to what the disparity between the provinces is.

00:22:35.900 And ending equalization would be in line with my proposal 0.64

00:22:38.760 to turn Canada into a natural resources superpower.

00:22:41.780 And so I don't want to have a situation

00:22:44.120 where you have Newfoundland and Labrador

00:22:46.400 now contributing, in fact, to equalization

00:22:50.220 and the island next door, PEI,

00:22:53.680 is in fact taking equalization.

00:22:55.380 So I'd like to encourage all Canadian provinces

00:22:58.060 to unleash their economic potential

00:23:00.900 by freeing our natural resources.

00:23:04.240 That's the way out of equalization.

00:23:05.900 That's the way towards economic prosperity.

00:23:07.760 That's also how we're going to get out

00:23:09.000 of the fiscal mess that we're in.

00:23:10.360 So your position is that equalization

00:23:13.120 is conditional in the Constitution, not a requirement.

00:23:16.480 So there's a test that's articulated in the Constitution,

00:23:21.880 which is that it has to ensure

00:23:23.340 that they can provide a comparable level of services

00:23:25.940 with comparable level of taxation.

00:23:28.080 I'm saying that, first of all,

00:23:29.620 I'd like to be satisfied that that isn't the case.

00:23:31.680 And if, in fact, we see during our first year

00:23:33.400 that that isn't the case,

00:23:34.520 then let's ramp up their ability

00:23:36.700 to provide a comparable level of services.

00:23:38.840 I've been to PEI.

00:23:39.860 It's a beautiful place.

00:23:41.320 I love Charlotte Town.

00:23:42.680 And I was flabbergasted to see

00:23:45.160 that in order to come off the island,

00:23:47.300 Canadians have to pay,

00:23:48.780 I think it's a $51 or $53 toll.

00:23:52.020 I think that if you're a resident of PEI,

00:23:54.200 you should not be paying the toll.

00:23:55.880 But to date,

00:23:57.420 PEI developed less than 20%

00:24:00.540 of its proven natural gas resources.

00:24:03.180 Same in Quebec.

00:24:04.020 I think that Quebec should become

00:24:06.500 the hydro capital of North America.

00:24:08.540 I think that Quebec should become,

00:24:10.480 has the potential of becoming the gas capital.

00:24:13.420 And I don't like this Canadian interdependence.

00:24:18.240 We should encourage everyone to succeed.

00:24:20.500 And at the same time,

00:24:21.560 ending this intra-provincial dependence

00:24:23.360 will also help heal our regional divides.

00:24:25.460 Just looking practically alone,

00:24:27.420 how would you win a national election

00:24:29.300 when you're campaigning on something

00:24:31.920 that the so-called have-not provinces

00:24:33.440 are going to feel is just untenable for them

00:24:36.000 and no longer viable for them?

00:24:37.480 Because they have structured,

00:24:38.760 in a lot of ways,

00:24:39.660 their spending and taxation levels

00:24:41.400 around the expectation of equalization.

00:24:43.640 I think that the political spectrum

00:24:45.900 has shifted significantly, Andrew.

00:24:48.720 First of all, generally,

00:24:50.540 and this is what I say

00:24:51.520 about universal basic income too,

00:24:53.340 Canadians don't want universal basic income.

00:24:55.420 They want to earn an income.

00:24:56.720 I also don't think that Canadians 1.00

00:24:58.000 want equalization payments.

00:25:00.140 I think that they want to be self-reliant

00:25:02.520 and self-determined.

00:25:04.540 And I also feel that now Canadians

00:25:06.680 fully appreciate the fact

00:25:08.460 that failure to develop our natural resources

00:25:10.540 is now costing them materially

00:25:13.380 at the pump in the grocery store.

00:25:16.060 And so the attitude

00:25:16.860 towards our natural resources will change.

00:25:19.260 Second thing I'd say to you,

00:25:20.500 and this is generally speaking,

00:25:22.440 I have an unbelievable number of people

00:25:24.740 approach me every day on the road

00:25:26.140 say, Roman, I've never voted Conservative.

00:25:28.220 I could never imagine

00:25:29.360 taking out a Conservative membership.

00:25:31.420 And now they do.

00:25:33.060 And so we see this remarkable number

00:25:35.440 collectively between all campaigns.

00:25:37.500 I think I would attract

00:25:40.260 a lot of what I refer to

00:25:41.960 as classical liberals,

00:25:43.440 the Paul Martin types

00:25:44.400 that believe in free enterprise,

00:25:46.060 that want to see democracy flourish in Canada.

00:25:50.140 I love a lot of new Democrats.

00:25:53.900 A lot of the Labour feels

00:25:54.940 that the new Democrats failed them

00:25:57.920 when they refused to stand up for their jobs.

00:25:59.980 By the way, I lay all of this

00:26:01.000 on Jagmeet Singh as well.

00:26:02.000 He's equally responsible for all of this.

00:26:04.280 And finally, the Greens.

00:26:05.960 I call them the freedom-loving Greens

00:26:07.560 who felt that they want to lead

00:26:09.920 a certain healthy lifestyle.

00:26:11.240 And a lot of them don't understand

00:26:12.780 why they have to take two shots

00:26:13.960 to lead a normal life.

00:26:15.620 It's personal choice.

00:26:17.120 That's what I've always argued for.

00:26:18.640 And so I think that in the next election,

00:26:20.420 particularly if I'm in leadership,

00:26:21.720 I'll be able to attract a lot of people

00:26:23.260 from different sides of the political spectrum

00:26:25.300 to give us a Conservative majority.

00:26:27.820 You know, Canadians have heard this respectfully

00:26:29.580 from Aaron O'Toole in the last election

00:26:31.340 where he said that he was going to make

00:26:32.540 all these gains with former Liberal voters,

00:26:34.840 NDP voters,

00:26:35.880 and that didn't end up materializing.

00:26:38.060 He didn't make those gains.

00:26:39.520 And it came at the expense

00:26:40.820 of a lot of Conservative voters

00:26:42.240 who no longer felt

00:26:43.160 they had a Conservative party to vote for.

00:26:45.820 So how do you pick up that support somewhere else

00:26:48.420 without going down the same road

00:26:49.880 that Conservatives have gone down

00:26:51.680 in, I'd say, at least the last two elections?

00:26:55.020 Well, but what Mr. O'Toole proposed to do

00:26:57.440 is to move the party to the left

00:26:58.760 on carbon tax,

00:27:00.840 move the party to lack of clarity

00:27:02.880 on mandates and passports,

00:27:04.760 not standing up for Canadians, 0.99

00:27:06.260 and generally not articulating

00:27:07.480 a clear alternative.

00:27:08.980 I think, on the contrary,

00:27:11.380 we have to be very comfortable

00:27:13.100 with who we are.

00:27:14.500 And if there's one thing

00:27:15.860 you could never accuse me of

00:27:17.040 is not being clear as to where I stand.

00:27:20.480 We might not always agree with one another,

00:27:22.820 but you will always know where I stand.

00:27:25.380 And so articulating a clear message to Canadians

00:27:27.720 and not being afraid

00:27:29.680 of standing up for national resources,

00:27:32.580 standing up for communities

00:27:33.840 against lockdowns,

00:27:35.280 standing up for Canadians

00:27:36.540 against passports and mandates,

00:27:38.900 standing up for a democracy,

00:27:40.500 which is experiencing

00:27:42.240 unprecedented erosion,

00:27:43.680 I think that all those things

00:27:44.800 will now resonate with Canadians.

00:27:46.740 I have not compromised my principles,

00:27:49.080 and should I need to do that,

00:27:50.880 God forbid,

00:27:51.400 then that would probably be

00:27:52.280 my last day in politics.

00:27:54.760 We don't need to move to the left.

00:27:56.380 We need to be confident

00:27:58.540 as to who we are

00:27:59.400 and articulate a clear message.

00:28:01.040 Just in closing,

00:28:01.920 I wanted to circle back

00:28:02.820 to your future here.

00:28:03.820 And I'm respectful of the fact

00:28:05.420 that you haven't made a decision yet

00:28:06.920 or are not wanting to commit to a path.

00:28:09.320 But if a Canadian's watching this

00:28:11.020 and seeing you cite,

00:28:12.240 you know,

00:28:12.440 the effect on family

00:28:13.580 and of the last four years

00:28:15.180 and wanting to return to life,

00:28:17.060 possibly as a private citizen,

00:28:18.980 what's your message to them

00:28:20.360 to say that you actually

00:28:21.380 are all in if you win?

00:28:22.600 Because I think a lot of people

00:28:23.740 are looking for someone

00:28:25.340 who's committed to implementing

00:28:27.040 the things they're proposing

00:28:28.100 in this race,

00:28:28.660 even if they aren't the leader.

00:28:31.580 I'm certainly going to help the leader,

00:28:33.880 whether I'm on the ballot or not.

00:28:36.100 But,

00:28:37.100 and I have not made a decision

00:28:38.680 one way or another.

00:28:39.880 But I think the best predictor

00:28:41.180 of the future

00:28:41.680 is to look at the past.

00:28:43.320 Andrew,

00:28:44.040 I've been fighting for two years

00:28:45.880 every day.

00:28:46.780 I would get up every day,

00:28:48.120 think about the morning messaging,

00:28:49.360 the night messaging.

00:28:52.940 I've been blessed

00:28:53.820 with every blessing

00:28:56.160 our country has to offer.

00:28:57.940 You know,

00:28:58.180 we came here at age 15,

00:28:59.300 we didn't have a cent to our name.

00:29:01.020 And I've had every blessing

00:29:02.280 to go to school,

00:29:03.480 to succeed,

00:29:03.960 to join a small business,

00:29:05.180 and then to be elected

00:29:06.220 by the very same community

00:29:07.400 that welcomed me

00:29:08.560 as a new Canadian.

00:29:10.060 And it didn't matter

00:29:12.880 how hard it got,

00:29:13.800 I would continue.

00:29:15.020 And I'm starting to see the light

00:29:16.580 at the end of the tunnel.

00:29:17.980 I think the ground is shifting.

00:29:19.540 I think Canadians

00:29:20.660 are waking up

00:29:21.800 to the fact that

00:29:22.480 this is a terrible government,

00:29:24.740 to the fact that

00:29:25.440 COVID response

00:29:26.240 has done us considerable harm,

00:29:28.080 to the fact that

00:29:28.560 we have to develop

00:29:30.100 our natural resources.

00:29:31.640 I have cause for optimism

00:29:33.060 for our country.

00:29:34.660 I'm not going to stop

00:29:35.600 fighting for our country.

00:29:37.900 I think that

00:29:38.840 the experience

00:29:40.040 of the last couple of years

00:29:40.800 to those that have been following me

00:29:41.960 know how committed I am

00:29:43.360 to Canadians.

00:29:44.500 Roman Baber.

00:29:45.200 Thank you.

00:29:45.880 Thank you so much, Andrew.

00:29:47.300 Hope you enjoyed that interview.

00:29:49.660 And I should say

00:29:50.560 that this is not at all

00:29:51.720 about the Roman interview

00:29:52.780 in particular,

00:29:53.460 but about this series in general.

00:29:55.660 The point of this

00:29:56.580 is not to get into

00:29:58.080 bloody brawls

00:29:59.120 with these candidates.

00:29:59.900 The point is not

00:30:00.780 to try to convince them

00:30:01.980 of something.

00:30:02.840 The point is to really

00:30:03.960 challenge them where necessary,

00:30:05.800 but get them to explain

00:30:07.060 in their own words

00:30:07.920 what it is they stand for

00:30:09.560 and give some clear answers

00:30:10.640 to clear questions.

00:30:12.220 I know, from politicians.

00:30:13.360 Or am I just delusional

00:30:15.000 to think that's possible?

00:30:16.120 Well, we're trying anyway

00:30:17.440 so that we know

00:30:18.380 what they would do

00:30:19.080 as leader of the party

00:30:20.060 and ultimately

00:30:21.140 as Prime Minister.

00:30:22.280 We've got interviews

00:30:23.080 with the remaining

00:30:23.720 three candidates

00:30:24.420 coming up

00:30:25.040 in the coming weeks.

00:30:26.580 Scott Aitchison,

00:30:27.480 Pierre Pollyve,

00:30:28.320 and Lesley Lewis.

00:30:29.500 So we're halfway

00:30:30.380 through the series

00:30:31.160 right now.

00:30:32.160 And again,

00:30:32.700 we're doing these properly.

00:30:33.880 We're bringing

00:30:34.200 a videographer out.

00:30:35.280 We're traveling around

00:30:36.180 to meet the candidates

00:30:37.040 on their busy schedules

00:30:38.260 as they campaign.

00:30:39.540 If you can chip in

00:30:40.540 a few dollars

00:30:41.080 to support this series,

00:30:42.540 please head on over

00:30:43.480 to donate.tnc.news.

00:30:46.040 Donate.tnc.news.

00:30:47.680 That is for the

00:30:48.460 Conservative Leadership Series,

00:30:50.040 which we are proud

00:30:50.820 to bring you here

00:30:51.500 on The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:30:53.220 And with that,

00:30:53.860 we'll bid you adieu.

00:30:54.700 We'll talk to you soon, folks.

00:30:56.100 Thank you, God bless,

00:30:57.100 and good day to you all.

00:30:58.180 Thanks for listening

00:30:58.840 to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:31:00.540 Support the program

00:31:01.340 by donating to True North

00:31:02.600 at www.tnc.news.

00:31:06.000 www.tnc.news.com

Juno News - June 29, 2022

Conservative Leadership Series： Roman Baber

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