Juno News - De-Alienating the West

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:06.660 This is The Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:00:12.760 Coming up, an in-depth, deep dive into Western alienation

00:00:16.260 with three interviews of people with very different perspectives

00:00:19.020 on what the problem is and how it might be solved.

00:00:23.980 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.

00:00:30.000 Hello and welcome to another on-location edition of The Andrew Lawton Show,

00:00:34.400 Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show on True North.

00:00:37.320 Once again, coming to you from Alberta.

00:00:39.460 Well, I'm here producing Assaulted, Justin Trudeau's War on Gun Owners,

00:00:43.240 talking about the things that are affecting gun owners,

00:00:46.240 people in the gun industry, sports shooters,

00:00:48.400 all of these folks whose stories are not being told by the mainstream media

00:00:51.540 and whose experiences are being completely disregarded

00:00:54.760 and rejected by Justin Trudeau and the Liberals.

00:00:57.920 I do actually want to focus on another Western topic on this show,

00:01:02.280 which is Western alienation.

00:01:04.020 Last week, I spent a bit of time talking about the carbon tax

00:01:07.360 and the Supreme Court's decision that the carbon tax is unconstitutional.

00:01:11.520 And one point I raised in that discussion was Western alienation.

00:01:15.280 Because the Alberta Court of Appeal found that the carbon tax was unconstitutional,

00:01:20.000 Jason Kenney has been a very fierce opponent of the carbon tax,

00:01:23.580 arguing that Alberta can look after itself, not just in this area, but in many others.

00:01:29.400 And when the federal government is not just imposing a carbon tax on Albertans,

00:01:33.560 but continuing to ramp up efforts to really diminish the power and scope of the energy sector,

00:01:40.760 it's easy for people in the West to get more and more unnerved by the situation.

00:01:45.620 And these were topics that were spotlighted at a conference a few weeks back

00:01:50.400 in Lloydminster, Alberta, that dealt with Western alienation,

00:01:54.380 the Freedom Talk conference, which had to take on a bit of a virtual slash hybrid format.

00:01:59.240 There were a few people in the room because you were allowed to under the public health guidelines,

00:02:03.640 but most people tuned in.

00:02:05.080 I was fortunate enough as a speaker to be there and talking about,

00:02:09.100 in a lot of ways, the media bias and that aspect of the discussion.

00:02:12.480 But I also sat down with a few of the major players in politics,

00:02:16.800 a couple of whom are very strongly in the independence discussions in Alberta,

00:02:21.380 to talk about how the West can get what it wants.

00:02:25.180 And one important thing to point here,

00:02:27.080 especially for people who aren't from Alberta or Saskatchewan or the parts of BC

00:02:31.380 that tend to be good on these issues, not Vancouver,

00:02:33.400 no offense to those who are tuning in from Vancouver,

00:02:36.100 is that Western independence isn't just about separation.

00:02:39.420 And, you know, there are a lot of people that are saying,

00:02:41.760 we're done with confederation, we want out.

00:02:43.840 But a lot of people say, listen, I love Canada, I love this country, I don't love Ottawa.

00:02:48.440 And that's a very important distinction.

00:02:50.940 People that say they like the country, but not the government,

00:02:54.100 separating the government from its people and from other aspects of the national existence.

00:02:59.280 And a lot of those people are very open to finding a new way to make confederation work.

00:03:03.720 But you need a fierce ally in Ottawa, or at the very least someone who's receptive to what you need,

00:03:10.200 and you need a strong spokesperson in Alberta,

00:03:12.720 which there is some contingent of the Conservative base in Alberta

00:03:16.420 that doesn't think Jason Kenney is doing that.

00:03:19.240 But I wanted to talk about this from a few different perspectives.

00:03:22.040 One of them was my conversation with Danny Hozak,

00:03:24.760 who is the chairman of the Economic Education Association of Alberta,

00:03:28.620 which puts on the Freedom Talk, and he's invited me out a number of times.

00:03:32.040 But he also has a very unique perspective on this.

00:03:34.860 And what he said time and time again is that it's not about separation,

00:03:38.900 it's about understanding that you have to work towards a process that is better for Alberta

00:03:45.000 and an outcome that is better for Alberta.

00:03:47.320 And if everyone along the way decides to abandon that,

00:03:50.020 he says separation is the last resort.

00:03:52.140 But here's my conversation with Danny Hozak,

00:03:54.480 outlining a number of the themes of the Freedom Talk,

00:03:57.140 but also in general the themes of independence.

00:03:59.780 Keeping in mind that Jason Kenney has promised a referendum on equalization.

00:04:05.340 You've done nine of these Freedom Talks now.

00:04:08.060 This is my third.

00:04:09.040 I've had the great privilege of coming for the last three years in a row now.

00:04:12.820 This one's a little bit different.

00:04:14.160 You've had to do a combination of virtual and a small number in person.

00:04:17.800 But in the time that you've been doing this,

00:04:20.640 the dialogue has changed about independence.

00:04:23.220 Would you say things are getting better or worse?

00:04:25.100 Well, it's getting better for the independent side

00:04:29.040 because things are getting worse in our province and our country.

00:04:32.980 What is it that you feel needs to be the goal now?

00:04:36.860 Because I know there has been a lot of talk at both this conference

00:04:39.500 and also last year in the summer when you were talking about the referendum.

00:04:44.660 Is that really the best hope right now?

00:04:48.100 Or is it just one of many tools?

00:04:49.980 I think it's just one of many tools.

00:04:51.560 And I mean, I think there's a combination of things that need to be done.

00:04:56.420 But the first thing that Albertans have to do is

00:04:58.100 they need to set their mind to taking charge of their own destiny.

00:05:01.660 And there's a whole list of things.

00:05:03.180 You know, in our last conference, we called it the Firewall Plus.

00:05:06.120 You know what I mean?

00:05:06.420 We need to do those things.

00:05:08.300 We need to have our own police force.

00:05:09.520 We need to have our own pension.

00:05:10.560 We need to collect our own taxes.

00:05:11.720 And so we need to do these things.

00:05:13.940 We need to sort of prepare ourselves for adulthood,

00:05:16.860 if you want to call that, in our country,

00:05:18.640 where we take charge of all these things.

00:05:20.540 Quite frankly, and I think Paul Heman makes a good case,

00:05:23.560 he said, like, we're not ready for flat-out independence yet.

00:05:26.020 We have a lot of homework to do before we're ready.

00:05:28.520 So I think that's our goal, is to sort of facilitate that discussion,

00:05:32.120 help prepare Alberta for the future,

00:05:34.240 help them be ready to take charge of their own destiny.

00:05:36.940 One of the interesting things about the discussion you've facilitated about the referendum

00:05:41.400 is that it's not just about independence.

00:05:44.220 It's not just about do we leave or do we stay, or do we change equalization.

00:05:47.900 You've actually tried, and John Robson, who spoke first thing,

00:05:51.500 I think, on the conference Friday morning,

00:05:53.000 had advocated for really expanding the referendum to become, in many cases,

00:05:57.900 I don't mean this in a negative way,

00:05:59.840 but a laundry list of questions that even go down to specific policies.

00:06:04.040 What was the thrust behind that?

00:06:05.640 Well, the referendum that you're talking about expanding

00:06:09.760 is the referendum that Jason Kenney has promised for this fall on equalization.

00:06:14.020 And our thrust was, well, if we're going to take the time

00:06:16.400 and spend the money to have a referendum on equalization,

00:06:19.220 quite frankly, most of us, you know,

00:06:21.000 we think Jason campaigned on doing something about equalization,

00:06:24.040 but if he thinks we need to have a referendum to garner more public support for it,

00:06:27.880 that's fine by us.

00:06:29.080 But there's, like, time is marching on here.

00:06:31.040 We had the Fair Deal panel.

00:06:32.820 They recommended we have our own police force.

00:06:34.620 The government's response to that was to study having our own police force.

00:06:37.800 Like, I mean, we want to have a referendum and say,

00:06:39.860 look, we the people think we should have our own police force,

00:06:42.960 not should you study it, we should do it.

00:06:44.540 Just figure out how to do it, just the way we figured out to get, you know,

00:06:47.360 oil out of sand.

00:06:48.220 Figure out how to do it.

00:06:49.240 Figure out how to collect our own money.

00:06:50.920 Figure out how to have our own pension plan.

00:06:52.660 So we want to expand the list, and we're talking about that right now downstairs.

00:06:57.080 We're talking about what five things should we ask the Alberta government to put on the ballot.

00:07:02.540 And right at the moment, the police force is at the top of it.

00:07:05.360 And I think every time Justin Trudeau talks about taking our guns,

00:07:09.300 you know, with support for our own police force so that we can discipline ourselves, so to speak.

00:07:14.500 So anyway, we're hoping to come up with four or five questions that we will suggest to the government.

00:07:19.840 Say, look, why don't you include them on the referendum this fall?

00:07:23.540 And I think that there's something to that,

00:07:25.600 because the equalization is probably one of the most notable examples

00:07:29.260 of how the East can take from the West.

00:07:32.480 But it doesn't really encapsulate the entirety of the problem,

00:07:36.820 which is a lack of independence in confederation.

00:07:39.400 And I wanted to ask you about that,

00:07:40.940 because I know that the prevailing chorus has historically been,

00:07:44.700 you know, not necessarily a separation, but separation if necessary.

00:07:48.480 Absolutely, yes.

00:07:49.260 Or not necessarily independence, but if necessary.

00:07:51.020 What are the things that you would want to see happen between now and that point

00:07:55.700 that would make it so that that anger that fuels the separation dialogue isn't as potent?

00:08:01.000 You mentioned police force.

00:08:02.180 What else?

00:08:02.720 What else is being put forward?

00:08:04.080 Well, there's the police force collecting all the taxes in the province,

00:08:07.940 it's the having our own pension plan.

00:08:10.800 I mean, there's a lot, like, we subsidize the Canada pension just about as bad

00:08:17.080 as we subsidize equalization.

00:08:18.700 So we need to do that.

00:08:19.820 So there's the police, there's the pension, there's the collecting our own tax,

00:08:24.200 there's having our own unemployment program,

00:08:26.180 and, you know, more and more, being in charge of our own immigration,

00:08:30.980 saying, look, I mean, when we've got 100 and some thousand unemployed workers,

00:08:35.940 maybe more, maybe 200,000, we don't really need any more immigration 0.99

00:08:40.680 until we get that sorted out.

00:08:42.240 So there's a list of those things.

00:08:44.160 Again, it goes back to the firewall plus, yes.

00:08:46.540 And a lot of what you're describing, there's precedent for in Canada.

00:08:50.120 People tend to overcomplicate things by saying, well,

00:08:52.300 you're going to need this constitutional amendment and this and that,

00:08:55.200 but a lot of what you're describing exists squarely within provincial jurisdiction.

00:08:59.160 There just hasn't been a province that's availed themselves of it.

00:09:02.420 And why do you think historically, you've been involved in Alberta politics

00:09:05.220 for a long time, even prior to the Redford years.

00:09:08.800 Why did conservative leaders in Alberta not do this?

00:09:13.440 You know, quite frankly, I think it was because, like, we were so wealthy,

00:09:17.840 the money was rolling in so easily, it was just, they were, quite frankly,

00:09:21.260 it was a failure of leadership.

00:09:22.560 I mean, to me, like, if they'd have been the board of directors

00:09:26.000 of a public company, they'd be getting sued for malfeasance right now,

00:09:29.280 the way they have, like, mishandled negotiating for us.

00:09:33.260 I don't blame Quebec for what they've got.

00:09:35.520 I blame the people that we hired to represent us.

00:09:37.860 And, I mean, we've been poorly, I mean, some of these are my dear friends,

00:09:40.940 but, I mean, at the end of the day, they haven't served us well

00:09:43.620 with the way they've let us down in some of these negotiations.

00:09:48.560 And so, you know, I think it just boiled down to, you know, when life is easy,

00:09:54.180 I mean, the money was rolling in so easy, it didn't really matter.

00:09:56.720 And, I mean, Paul Hyman practically begged the finance minister

00:09:59.760 not to re-sign the equalization thing in 2004, and she wouldn't do it.

00:10:06.420 I mean, had we done it then, you look back and say, if only, you know what I mean?

00:10:09.900 Yeah, and you do mention something important there,

00:10:12.160 which is that when things are really great, the energy sector's booming,

00:10:16.340 the economy's booming, Alberta was fairly charitable.

00:10:19.640 Now, some of that was structurally, not necessarily by choice,

00:10:22.060 but Alberta was fairly charitable. 0.94

00:10:23.800 And then when the tide turned, and when Alberta was going through its own hardship,

00:10:28.180 it was still subsidizing the rest of Canada, but Albertans were suffering.

00:10:32.300 And you're right that there was a bit of a shift there,

00:10:34.720 where Alberta was all of a sudden saying,

00:10:36.320 okay, well, we've been doing so much for the rest of Canada for so long,

00:10:39.860 where's the support for us now?

00:10:41.200 And instead, what do we have?

00:10:42.520 Other provinces that are resisting pipelines,

00:10:45.300 federal leaders from the Laurentian elite that are trying to say,

00:10:48.320 we don't need the energy sector, we need to phase out the oil sands.

00:10:51.720 And, you know, Alberta was there for Canada,

00:10:53.960 but Canada wasn't there when the chips were down for Alberta.

00:10:56.760 Yeah, like, not only were they not there for us,

00:10:59.320 like, they were actively working to make our life more difficult.

00:11:02.380 You know what I mean?

00:11:02.720 And so, like, it's, and after a while, you just say,

00:11:05.500 well, this is crazy, you know what I mean?

00:11:07.040 And so, and I mean, more and more people are starting to say that now.

00:11:10.020 And so, you know, it'll be interesting to see what happens as we go forward.

00:11:14.020 One of the things that I have to commend you on,

00:11:17.060 even in the span of the last three Freedom Talks I've been at,

00:11:20.320 the level of frustration is still there.

00:11:23.260 But it seems to get a bit more focused and a bit more channeled every time.

00:11:27.260 And now, even what you've been talking about,

00:11:29.080 about synthesizing all of these referendum questions that you want on there,

00:11:33.200 there's a very productive approach to that.

00:11:36.180 But at the same time, you still need people in elected office to listen.

00:11:39.600 But you do.

00:11:40.980 And I mean, the thing is, in fairness to them,

00:11:44.320 the people in elected office can't go somewhere

00:11:46.480 that the people haven't decided they should go.

00:11:49.060 You know what I mean?

00:11:49.440 So they have their role to play.

00:11:51.180 We have our role to play.

00:11:52.300 You know what I mean?

00:11:52.840 And we have to be respectful of the fact that

00:11:55.840 they're doing what they think is best for the province.

00:11:58.760 You know what I mean?

00:11:59.400 But, and again, I don't blame our leaders so much

00:12:02.980 is sometimes the people who have voted for them were,

00:12:05.840 you know, they were just too casual in saying,

00:12:07.760 well, it'll probably be all right.

00:12:09.240 And so, and I think we really have,

00:12:10.800 we've been leading the discussion on climate.

00:12:12.700 We've been leading the discussion on debt and deficit.

00:12:14.820 Now we're leading this discussion on the questions

00:12:17.680 that should be on the ballot.

00:12:18.960 We pride ourselves, you know,

00:12:20.820 mostly with the, you know,

00:12:23.520 the guidance and the counselling of John Robson.

00:12:26.020 Say, look, let's be the adults in the room.

00:12:27.900 Let's be, let's try and have an intelligent,

00:12:30.640 respectful discussion of what the issue is.

00:12:32.820 Let's look at, you know, what the options are.

00:12:35.340 Let's look at the pros and cons of the different options.

00:12:37.760 And then let's let the people decide what we should do.

00:12:40.120 Just like we're doing right now.

00:12:41.440 We're using that Slido app

00:12:42.940 with some of the people are in the room

00:12:44.620 and some of the people are online.

00:12:45.840 We're saying, okay, this is the options.

00:12:47.440 How many of you are in favour of this?

00:12:49.200 You know what I mean?

00:12:49.860 And so we're trying to facilitate the discussion

00:12:52.040 and we're trying to get more and more people involved,

00:12:53.960 which as you know, is a challenge.

00:12:55.720 But I want to say, while we're talking,

00:12:58.560 is how much we appreciate like the independent media

00:13:01.700 and what you and True North do

00:13:03.460 and our friends at the Western Standard

00:13:05.140 and the Rebel News, I mean...

00:13:06.820 Well, not to do it our own horns,

00:13:07.880 but we've been the only media

00:13:08.840 that have covered these conferences,

00:13:09.920 which have been tremendous.

00:13:11.520 I remember the first one I was at pre-pandemic,

00:13:13.540 over 400 people.

00:13:14.020 400 people.

00:13:14.740 Yeah, absolutely.

00:13:16.080 And not one person from the $2.4 billion

00:13:18.760 subsidized mainstream media even commented on,

00:13:21.700 let alone came and commented.

00:13:22.920 And so, yes, I mean,

00:13:24.300 we wouldn't be getting our message out at all

00:13:25.920 if it weren't for you.

00:13:26.540 And we are very grateful for that.

00:13:28.280 And I mean, I think it's good business for you.

00:13:30.060 You're obviously hopefully finding a market that...

00:13:32.240 But I, you know, like John made that point yesterday morning.

00:13:35.700 He said, like, for all you folks, like,

00:13:38.480 that, you know, have two or three coffees every day

00:13:40.380 at Tim Hortons, no disrespect to Tim Hortons,

00:13:42.240 but if you gave that,

00:13:43.480 some of that money to independent media,

00:13:45.400 and if you want to win, we're going to have to do it.

00:13:47.980 And one of the things that you and I talked about

00:13:49.980 when we were discussing you coming this time,

00:13:51.580 we said, there's no point in having a referendum

00:13:53.660 if we don't have independent media

00:13:55.240 to get the facts out there of the people.

00:13:57.140 Because so many people,

00:13:58.260 all they know is what CBC told them,

00:14:00.020 which, as you know,

00:14:00.620 is increasingly further and further from the truth.

00:14:04.080 Absolutely.

00:14:04.620 So Alberta could have its own public broadcaster

00:14:06.540 if it wanted to be on CBC.

00:14:08.120 That's right, yeah.

00:14:08.920 Danny Ozak, I appreciate you letting me be a part of this,

00:14:11.040 both as a journalist and also as a speaker.

00:14:12.840 Thank you.

00:14:13.460 Thanks for having me on.

00:14:14.660 We'll look forward to seeing you at our next conference.

00:14:16.740 Absolutely.

00:14:17.200 Thank you.

00:14:17.900 I have got a lot of time for Danny,

00:14:19.440 and I must say,

00:14:20.040 I think it's interesting how he's framed this

00:14:22.060 as being not just about equalization.

00:14:24.380 In a lot of ways,

00:14:25.420 equalization payments that Alberta has to give

00:14:28.300 to subsidize other provinces

00:14:30.060 like Quebec and Atlantic Canada,

00:14:32.100 these are certainly frustrations,

00:14:34.040 and it's a very reasonable thing to be concerned about.

00:14:37.060 But in a lot of ways,

00:14:38.140 it's not the be-all and end-all,

00:14:39.840 and it tends to overshadow other feelings of alienation

00:14:43.700 that people in the West have.

00:14:46.700 And one of the interesting discussions that came about

00:14:49.540 was the comparison between Alberta and Quebec.

00:14:52.440 Now, a lot of Alberta conservatives

00:14:54.400 or Alberta independence-minded folks

00:14:56.300 very much rejected this

00:14:57.860 because they see Quebec as being the example 0.78

00:14:59.960 of, you know, just the greatest leech in Canada.

00:15:02.580 That's the perception to a lot of Albertans.

00:15:05.540 But one thing Quebec has done,

00:15:07.140 or a number of things Quebec has done very well,

00:15:09.900 is asserted its independence on things

00:15:12.320 and said to the federal government,

00:15:13.700 you know what?

00:15:14.240 Come and get me.

00:15:14.960 And now, Quebec is a bit different

00:15:17.620 because it has a language basis

00:15:19.520 for its cultural identity,

00:15:21.400 and that's a language basis

00:15:22.680 that the government of Canada

00:15:23.780 historically wants to accept,

00:15:25.920 or at the very least is scared of.

00:15:28.280 Nevertheless, Quebec has done

00:15:29.900 what a lot of Albertans want to,

00:15:32.000 which is bring a lot of things

00:15:33.320 that are currently under federal jurisdiction

00:15:35.080 into the provincial realm,

00:15:36.920 whether it is a police force,

00:15:39.100 whether it is a pension plan,

00:15:40.740 or any number of policy areas.

00:15:42.860 And Maxime Bernier,

00:15:44.060 the leader of the People's Party of Canada,

00:15:46.260 on whose show I actually appeared

00:15:47.940 as a guest just a few days ago,

00:15:50.300 he was one of the speakers.

00:15:51.340 Now, he's a federalist.

00:15:52.280 He's not from Alberta.

00:15:53.560 They call him the Albertan from Quebec,

00:15:54.980 but he's a guy who very much

00:15:57.040 wants Canada to stay together.

00:15:59.220 But he was saying that Alberta

00:16:00.920 can learn from Quebec,

00:16:02.840 which I found was interesting.

00:16:04.480 And talking to some of the few attendees

00:16:05.780 who were at this conference in person,

00:16:07.620 it was interesting how a few of them

00:16:09.120 actually had their backs up

00:16:10.020 against the wall at first,

00:16:11.500 but then they ended up being

00:16:13.260 a little bit more receptive to it

00:16:14.620 once they heard,

00:16:15.340 oh yeah, there's a framework for this.

00:16:17.220 We're not reinventing the wheel.

00:16:18.500 Provinces have proven that it is possible.

00:16:20.800 You just need the political will to do it.

00:16:23.000 This was my conversation

00:16:24.280 on Alberta independence

00:16:25.300 with the so-called Albertan from Quebec,

00:16:27.980 Maxime Bernier.

00:16:29.660 You've had for quite a while

00:16:31.260 the nickname of the Albertan from Quebec,

00:16:33.280 and it's actually interesting.

00:16:34.960 You're embraced quite robustly here

00:16:37.060 at these Freedom Talk conferences.

00:16:38.480 And I wanted to ask you

00:16:40.240 a little bit about

00:16:41.460 what it is that Alberta and Quebec

00:16:43.320 have in common.

00:16:44.300 Because I know that a lot of Albertans

00:16:46.160 have a lot of resentment towards Quebec

00:16:48.040 because of all the money

00:16:48.920 that Quebec has taken

00:16:50.160 in equalization over the years.

00:16:51.680 But Quebec has also done

00:16:53.440 in a lot of ways

00:16:54.400 what Alberta keeps talking

00:16:55.720 about wanting to do.

00:16:56.980 Yeah.

00:16:57.360 Yeah.

00:16:57.880 What I said yesterday,

00:16:59.360 it's important for us in Canada

00:17:02.340 to know that we politicians in Canada

00:17:05.980 be sure to know our constitution

00:17:07.600 and respect our constitution.

00:17:09.020 And the only way

00:17:09.640 to have changes in this country

00:17:11.100 is to have a radical decentralization,

00:17:13.740 a downsize of the federal government.

00:17:15.820 And actually,

00:17:16.460 it will be good for Alberta.

00:17:18.000 But like in Quebec,

00:17:19.660 Quebecers are asking

00:17:20.740 for more autonomy.

00:17:22.840 And I think Albertans

00:17:23.780 are asking for that.

00:17:25.080 And the discussion

00:17:25.880 that we had yesterday

00:17:27.220 was about, you know,

00:17:28.160 is it good if Alberta

00:17:30.120 is on a police force,

00:17:32.420 on a pension plan,

00:17:34.760 on the immigration selection system?

00:17:38.100 I said, you know,

00:17:38.900 Quebec has that.

00:17:40.800 And Quebec is doing that.

00:17:42.260 So you can,

00:17:43.460 because it's in line

00:17:44.400 with our constitution.

00:17:45.720 So you have to do it.

00:17:47.540 And you don't need to wait

00:17:49.480 for having the approval

00:17:50.880 from the federal government.

00:17:52.340 Do it yourself.

00:17:53.600 And each time,

00:17:54.400 the federal government

00:17:55.120 will come with a national program

00:17:56.980 that usually are unconstitutional.

00:17:59.720 You'll be able to ask

00:18:00.900 to opt out

00:18:01.640 and having the money for that.

00:18:03.340 So my goal was to tell them

00:18:06.060 that what you want

00:18:07.600 is doable

00:18:08.280 at the provincial level.

00:18:10.000 So elect a political party

00:18:13.440 at the provincial level

00:18:14.340 that believe in more autonomy

00:18:15.920 for your province

00:18:17.060 and do it

00:18:18.100 and don't ask any permission.

00:18:20.660 You said something interesting

00:18:21.960 about that

00:18:22.540 that I hadn't really

00:18:23.420 considered before,

00:18:24.800 which was that

00:18:25.300 the Bloc Québécois,

00:18:26.560 which I think

00:18:27.240 for many people,

00:18:28.040 certainly in Canada

00:18:29.040 outside of Quebec,

00:18:29.980 is the face

00:18:30.960 of the Quebec

00:18:31.860 Sovereignist Movement.

00:18:33.460 The Bloc Québécois

00:18:34.180 has done very little

00:18:35.080 to advance Quebec's interest.

00:18:36.820 You say it's all been done

00:18:38.140 at the provincial level.

00:18:39.440 Yeah, absolutely.

00:18:40.160 You're right.

00:18:41.320 The Bloc Québécois

00:18:42.260 did nothing to promote

00:18:43.520 more decentralization.

00:18:45.980 That was always

00:18:47.120 the provincial government,

00:18:48.860 liberal government

00:18:49.720 or PQ government

00:18:50.920 or ADQ government.

00:18:52.520 They all believe,

00:18:53.340 you know,

00:18:53.500 when you're a politician,

00:18:54.360 you want to control.

00:18:55.820 You want to have

00:18:56.720 a lot of power.

00:18:57.840 And that's what

00:18:58.880 Quebecers,

00:18:59.840 politicians

00:19:00.160 at the provincial level

00:19:01.200 want.

00:19:02.000 So the Bloc Québécois

00:19:03.280 did nothing

00:19:04.020 to promote

00:19:04.740 the separatist movement

00:19:06.820 during the 1980s

00:19:09.760 or before

00:19:10.560 or after that.

00:19:11.680 That was the Quebec government

00:19:13.640 who did all that.

00:19:15.040 So that's why

00:19:15.800 I'm saying,

00:19:16.400 you know,

00:19:16.900 if you want to change

00:19:19.120 at the federal level,

00:19:20.220 don't vote

00:19:20.920 for a kind

00:19:21.520 of a Bloc Québécois

00:19:22.780 party for Western Canada

00:19:24.520 because if you want

00:19:25.800 a real change

00:19:26.580 in this country,

00:19:27.460 you'll need

00:19:28.000 to say the same thing

00:19:30.140 all across the country

00:19:31.100 to speak

00:19:32.400 for every Canadian

00:19:33.880 across the country.

00:19:35.140 And so that's why

00:19:35.820 I was saying,

00:19:36.500 you know,

00:19:36.780 don't vote

00:19:37.440 for the Maverick Party.

00:19:38.840 That's not the solution

00:19:39.920 because if you're

00:19:40.800 really independentist

00:19:41.760 and you want

00:19:42.220 or you want

00:19:42.860 more autonomy,

00:19:44.020 vote at the provincial level

00:19:45.300 for the Wild Rose

00:19:46.640 Independence Party.

00:19:48.200 A lot of people

00:19:49.720 could accuse you

00:19:50.920 of flirting with separatism

00:19:52.500 when you talk

00:19:53.020 about these things

00:19:53.740 but in actuality

00:19:55.020 you're proposing

00:19:55.660 what many would argue

00:19:56.900 is the original form

00:19:58.100 of federalism

00:19:58.820 which was very strong

00:20:00.380 provinces combined

00:20:01.480 together in a federation

00:20:02.540 with a federal government

00:20:03.460 that has,

00:20:04.340 relatively speaking,

00:20:05.280 little power.

00:20:07.300 You were in the

00:20:07.920 think tank world,

00:20:08.740 you've been in law,

00:20:09.660 you've seen history.

00:20:11.520 When did government

00:20:12.540 get so big

00:20:13.580 at the federal level?

00:20:14.520 When did that

00:20:15.020 really happen?

00:20:16.240 Well,

00:20:16.480 it happened

00:20:16.920 in the 1970s

00:20:18.520 and when you have

00:20:19.880 the separatist movement

00:20:20.980 in Quebec at that time

00:20:22.260 and also in Alberta

00:20:23.500 at that time.

00:20:24.620 Don't forget

00:20:25.240 Albertan elected

00:20:26.220 the first separatist

00:20:28.780 member of the

00:20:29.900 Legislative Assembly

00:20:30.820 in 1982.

00:20:32.180 So Quebec and Alberta,

00:20:33.860 they have the same idea.

00:20:35.920 They are fighting

00:20:37.000 for their autonomy.

00:20:38.340 So your question

00:20:40.400 about the Constitution

00:20:41.960 and being sure

00:20:43.280 to respect

00:20:44.400 the Constitution,

00:20:45.700 the federal government

00:20:46.580 usually wants

00:20:48.460 to have more visibility

00:20:49.760 and is buying vote

00:20:51.600 with money.

00:20:52.960 And the best way

00:20:53.600 to do that

00:20:54.040 is to create

00:20:54.740 a new program,

00:20:55.680 a new national program.

00:20:57.120 The best example

00:20:57.920 is the scandal

00:21:01.100 that we had in Quebec

00:21:02.060 during the last referendum.

00:21:04.680 Trudeau spent a lot

00:21:05.880 of money in Quebec

00:21:06.600 to try to change

00:21:07.860 the vote over there.

00:21:09.220 But it's always the same.

00:21:11.020 The federal government

00:21:11.920 think that, you know,

00:21:13.180 if they don't show

00:21:14.220 to their population

00:21:15.040 that they're doing

00:21:15.840 something for them,

00:21:17.200 they won't be re-elected.

00:21:18.720 But the Constitution,

00:21:19.860 the father of our country,

00:21:21.340 they didn't see

00:21:21.960 our federation like that.

00:21:23.480 Like you just said,

00:21:24.560 strong, sovereign province

00:21:26.480 with their jurisdiction

00:21:28.400 and their responsibilities,

00:21:29.440 and the federal government

00:21:30.940 must be in charge

00:21:32.000 of money,

00:21:33.240 international affairs,

00:21:34.580 and all inter-provincial affairs also.

00:21:39.140 So in the Constitution,

00:21:40.620 you have usually

00:21:41.340 a smaller government.

00:21:42.560 But because of politics

00:21:43.820 and politicians

00:21:44.820 at the federal level

00:21:45.940 that want to be re-elected,

00:21:48.800 try to create a new program

00:21:50.140 that is against the Constitution.

00:21:52.840 And they're doing that

00:21:53.920 because they have the money also.

00:21:55.860 And that's all the question

00:21:57.060 of the spending power in Ottawa.

00:22:01.440 They think that Canada

00:22:02.820 and the federal government

00:22:03.980 with the surplus

00:22:04.840 that they had during that time,

00:22:06.480 they can spend money

00:22:07.540 in exclusive provincial jurisdiction

00:22:09.700 and with some condition.

00:22:11.680 But that's unconstitutional.

00:22:13.560 That power doesn't exist

00:22:18.540 in the Constitution.

00:22:19.960 The federal government

00:22:20.700 doesn't have the right

00:22:21.800 to spend money

00:22:22.520 in provincial jurisdiction.

00:22:24.400 And that was so important

00:22:25.940 that in the Lackmich Accord

00:22:27.460 a long time ago,

00:22:29.000 Brian Maroney put that.

00:22:30.380 He said in this accord,

00:22:31.840 I want the federal government

00:22:33.080 to have the right

00:22:33.860 to spend money

00:22:34.700 into provincial jurisdiction.

00:22:37.320 And they don't.

00:22:38.300 So you need to change that.

00:22:40.440 You need to be sure.

00:22:41.340 And by the way,

00:22:42.540 with what happened right now

00:22:43.740 with the discussion here

00:22:44.920 in Alberta

00:22:45.840 about the unity,

00:22:47.000 the pipelines and all that,

00:22:48.880 and I think we'll have

00:22:50.020 that discussion.

00:22:50.940 We will have that discussion

00:22:52.200 and we want to put that debate

00:22:54.920 in from the news.

00:22:56.400 And I think that's

00:22:58.280 hugely important

00:22:59.120 because when you draw

00:23:00.000 that contrast

00:23:00.680 of Quebec and Alberta

00:23:02.280 and all the things

00:23:02.920 Alberta could do,

00:23:04.060 pension plan,

00:23:05.000 income tax collection,

00:23:06.800 police force,

00:23:07.640 these things.

00:23:08.460 Pension.

00:23:08.920 Yeah.

00:23:09.280 The difference is that

00:23:10.700 Quebec has done all that

00:23:12.140 while getting subsidized

00:23:13.800 by the rest of the country,

00:23:15.540 including Alberta,

00:23:16.380 whereas Alberta

00:23:17.320 is still doing

00:23:18.140 the subsidizing.

00:23:19.240 And Alberta can do 0.98

00:23:20.420 all of that,

00:23:21.340 but a lot of these discussions

00:23:22.860 all lead back

00:23:23.820 to equalization,

00:23:24.840 which cannot be done

00:23:26.000 unilaterally by a province.

00:23:27.680 Do you see any way

00:23:29.300 that the federal government,

00:23:31.060 liberal or conservative,

00:23:32.160 would take a redrawing,

00:23:34.240 a re-evaluation

00:23:34.840 of equalization seriously?

00:23:36.960 I think they will have

00:23:38.020 to do that today.

00:23:38.960 What is the goal

00:23:39.860 of the equalization formula?

00:23:41.280 It's to be sure

00:23:41.960 that every citizen

00:23:43.700 living in Moncton

00:23:45.060 or in Calgary

00:23:46.320 will have the same level

00:23:48.140 of service

00:23:49.080 from the federal government,

00:23:50.160 from their provincial government.

00:23:51.580 Sorry.

00:23:52.120 So that's why

00:23:52.980 they want to help everybody

00:23:54.640 in having the same kind

00:23:55.860 of living standard.

00:23:58.800 But because of the recession

00:24:00.560 right now

00:24:01.160 and maybe a depression,

00:24:02.380 because Alberta

00:24:03.340 is in a deep recession

00:24:06.440 right now,

00:24:07.440 in two years

00:24:08.660 they won't be able

00:24:09.500 to give money

00:24:10.060 to other provinces.

00:24:11.300 So you have a kind of,

00:24:12.660 it's bad to say,

00:24:14.220 but every province

00:24:15.260 will be at the same

00:24:16.200 poor level.

00:24:17.680 And so you will need

00:24:18.960 to have a discussion

00:24:19.680 about equalization.

00:24:20.820 You will need

00:24:21.340 to have a discussion

00:24:22.060 about how much money

00:24:23.180 you're giving.

00:24:24.040 And I think that will come.

00:24:25.660 And at that time

00:24:26.520 we will be there,

00:24:28.200 we at the PPC,

00:24:29.400 to force that discussion

00:24:30.500 and force provinces,

00:24:32.760 other provinces,

00:24:33.620 to develop

00:24:34.400 their natural resources.

00:24:35.880 You know,

00:24:36.080 in Quebec

00:24:36.420 we receive equalization,

00:24:38.400 but I don't believe

00:24:39.060 Quebec is a poor province.

00:24:40.360 And Quebecers 0.98

00:24:41.040 don't believe that also.

00:24:42.980 They just want

00:24:43.920 to develop

00:24:45.600 their natural resources,

00:24:46.780 but the Quebec government

00:24:47.640 say, no, no,

00:24:48.260 we have a moratorium

00:24:49.300 on shell gas

00:24:50.220 and if they develop

00:24:51.660 their shell gas,

00:24:52.700 they won't receive

00:24:53.720 so much money

00:24:54.500 from the equalization.

00:24:55.880 So there's no incentive

00:24:57.000 for Quebec,

00:24:57.820 New Brunswick

00:24:58.340 or other provinces

00:24:59.140 to develop their economy.

00:25:00.820 I think that discussion

00:25:01.880 will come.

00:25:02.820 And that's why

00:25:03.380 it's important.

00:25:04.180 It's important for us

00:25:05.940 at the BBC

00:25:06.540 and for Canadians

00:25:07.900 that I think

00:25:09.280 they need our voice

00:25:10.520 in Ottawa.

00:25:11.400 I thought that was

00:25:12.240 an interesting interview.

00:25:13.360 And one of the

00:25:14.240 interesting aspects

00:25:15.220 of it was him

00:25:16.560 taking aim

00:25:17.340 at the Maverick Party,

00:25:18.640 which has kind of

00:25:19.400 popped up

00:25:19.960 as being a Western voice

00:25:21.960 in the national

00:25:23.840 political discourse.

00:25:24.920 But Maxime's saying,

00:25:25.740 listen,

00:25:26.000 if you're going to have

00:25:26.580 any progress here,

00:25:27.780 it's going to come

00:25:28.360 from a provincial party

00:25:29.360 at the provincial level.

00:25:30.580 This is a provincial-led

00:25:31.740 discussion,

00:25:32.300 not a federal one.

00:25:33.100 And I found that interesting

00:25:34.180 and certainly

00:25:34.820 there may be a bit

00:25:36.120 of self-interest there

00:25:37.060 because the PPC

00:25:37.820 wants votes.

00:25:38.680 They don't want to lose

00:25:39.400 votes to another party

00:25:40.760 going after people

00:25:41.660 that might have

00:25:42.200 some overlap.

00:25:43.100 But I also think

00:25:44.140 it's worth listening

00:25:44.960 to to some extent

00:25:46.180 because you don't want

00:25:47.320 to further fragment

00:25:48.380 federal politics

00:25:49.560 when there are things

00:25:50.780 that a provincial government

00:25:51.840 can do.

00:25:52.300 But you need to actually

00:25:53.200 lay a strong foundation

00:25:55.360 for that,

00:25:56.040 which means you need

00:25:56.720 to have a province

00:25:57.940 that's prepared to say,

00:25:58.920 listen,

00:25:59.380 we're not going

00:26:00.080 to take it anymore.

00:26:01.020 We're mad as hell.

00:26:01.780 We're not going

00:26:02.120 to take it anymore,

00:26:02.920 which is exactly

00:26:03.900 what a lot of Albertans

00:26:04.920 want from Jason Kenney.

00:26:06.860 Now, Jason Kenney,

00:26:07.780 I interviewed him

00:26:08.640 in December.

00:26:09.360 We spoke a little bit

00:26:10.180 about Western alienation.

00:26:11.680 He's very aware of it.

00:26:13.320 He's aware of the problem,

00:26:14.780 but he is also

00:26:16.100 a committed federalist.

00:26:17.720 And he's been criticized

00:26:19.380 even from within

00:26:20.420 his own party

00:26:21.040 for that to some extent

00:26:22.000 because they want someone

00:26:23.260 who is prepared

00:26:24.000 to pull the exit hatch

00:26:25.420 opening if that's

00:26:26.980 what's necessary.

00:26:27.740 Not as a first resort,

00:26:29.080 but to have it available

00:26:30.240 as a last resort.

00:26:32.040 Jason Kenney led

00:26:33.080 the Fair Deal panel process,

00:26:34.940 which one of his own MLAs,

00:26:36.680 Drew Barnes,

00:26:37.240 who sat on the panel,

00:26:38.260 thought at the end of it

00:26:39.740 didn't really reflect

00:26:40.920 a lot of the conversations

00:26:41.960 that were had

00:26:42.620 and a lot of the suggestions

00:26:43.780 that people in the province

00:26:45.440 put forward.

00:26:46.360 One of the folks

00:26:46.960 who has stepped up

00:26:48.060 to the plate

00:26:48.520 at the provincial level

00:26:49.560 to drive these discussions

00:26:50.740 is Paul Hinman.

00:26:52.400 He is the interim leader

00:26:53.580 of the Wild Rose Independence Party,

00:26:55.960 formerly a leader

00:26:56.800 of the original

00:26:57.600 Wild Rose Alliance

00:26:58.600 before it merged

00:27:00.060 with the PCs

00:27:00.780 to become the new

00:27:01.680 United Conservative Party.

00:27:03.540 But Paul Hinman

00:27:04.220 has been trying

00:27:05.060 to put forward

00:27:05.900 a strong provincial-led

00:27:07.960 and Alberta-led agenda

00:27:09.400 that would drive

00:27:10.640 a lot of these issues

00:27:11.520 that Albertans

00:27:12.180 are concerned about.

00:27:13.240 This is my chat

00:27:14.200 with Paul Hinman.

00:27:15.560 When we spoke last time,

00:27:17.100 it was in the summer

00:27:17.660 at the last Freedom Talk,

00:27:18.860 and we had just come off

00:27:20.720 the Fair Deal panel,

00:27:21.960 which I think gave

00:27:22.760 some people

00:27:23.240 some encouragement,

00:27:24.080 although as we heard

00:27:24.740 from MLA Drew Barnes,

00:27:26.520 not quite far enough

00:27:28.420 to what a lot of people

00:27:29.400 were saying.

00:27:30.460 We fast forward to now,

00:27:31.860 we're closer to this referendum

00:27:33.920 that's been promised.

00:27:35.420 Where do you think

00:27:36.200 the dialogue really is

00:27:38.020 on independence?

00:27:38.780 Where do you think

00:27:39.260 it's going?

00:27:39.740 Do you think it's moving

00:27:40.440 in a good direction

00:27:41.240 or a bad one?

00:27:42.240 Well, I think with COVID

00:27:43.520 and the complications

00:27:44.920 that that's happened,

00:27:46.140 we see the federal interference

00:27:47.860 and the importance

00:27:49.260 of a provincial government

00:27:50.580 that will stand up

00:27:51.400 for the rights

00:27:51.920 and the freedoms

00:27:52.400 of Albertans.

00:27:53.540 But it's quite obvious

00:27:54.780 that Kenny is in,

00:27:56.340 you know,

00:27:57.240 cahoots or part

00:27:58.120 of the federal idea

00:28:00.500 and the global idea

00:28:01.620 right now

00:28:02.140 that this is a terrible,

00:28:04.140 vicious virus

00:28:05.920 that's killing people,

00:28:06.960 which it isn't.

00:28:07.860 And again,

00:28:08.340 so Albertans

00:28:09.020 are very frustrated

00:28:10.460 and hurt,

00:28:11.260 especially in rural Alberta

00:28:12.560 and wanting the government

00:28:14.220 to stand up for them

00:28:15.280 and to end the lockdown.

00:28:17.160 When you're a,

00:28:17.840 I don't want to say

00:28:18.460 a single issue party,

00:28:19.500 but when you're a party

00:28:20.200 that's structured

00:28:20.960 primarily around

00:28:22.140 the idea of getting

00:28:23.140 a better deal

00:28:23.800 for Alberta

00:28:24.800 and you have

00:28:25.580 all of these issues

00:28:26.400 that are coming up

00:28:27.160 like lockdowns,

00:28:28.580 like healthcare spending,

00:28:30.040 like just general

00:28:30.860 day-to-day government,

00:28:32.160 how important is it

00:28:33.840 for you,

00:28:34.240 if at all,

00:28:34.740 to stay focused

00:28:35.500 on that independence movement?

00:28:36.800 Or do you find

00:28:37.660 you have to veer

00:28:38.300 into all of these

00:28:38.880 different areas

00:28:39.480 when now the culture

00:28:40.640 has moved to one

00:28:41.320 where lockdowns

00:28:42.280 need to be the pressing

00:28:42.940 political discussion?

00:28:44.280 I think that

00:28:45.200 what we really need

00:28:45.860 to offer

00:28:46.420 is real answers

00:28:47.540 for Albertans

00:28:48.380 that they need

00:28:49.180 good government.

00:28:50.180 They need a better

00:28:51.240 healthcare system.

00:28:52.380 They need,

00:28:53.040 you know,

00:28:53.580 our education system.

00:28:55.800 Government is failing

00:28:58.080 Albertans

00:28:58.660 in so many aspects

00:28:59.720 right now.

00:29:00.700 And again,

00:29:01.060 too often it's about

00:29:02.280 a right or a left issue,

00:29:03.720 but having a good

00:29:04.480 healthcare system

00:29:05.420 isn't right or left.

00:29:06.660 That's just good governance

00:29:07.900 and it's having

00:29:08.700 a proper system in place,

00:29:10.000 which we don't have.

00:29:11.440 And probably COVID

00:29:12.300 has shone the light

00:29:14.980 on that more than anything

00:29:16.120 because all we hear

00:29:16.940 the Premier say

00:29:17.720 is that we've got

00:29:18.240 to protect

00:29:18.780 our healthcare system.

00:29:20.260 It's not about

00:29:20.660 protecting Albertans.

00:29:22.060 It's not about

00:29:22.580 protecting the education.

00:29:23.920 It's about protecting

00:29:24.880 the healthcare system.

00:29:25.880 Why?

00:29:26.360 Because it's a failing system.

00:29:27.660 It's not robust enough.

00:29:28.760 He could have had

00:29:29.080 a whole year

00:29:29.840 that he could have been

00:29:30.820 building more

00:29:31.380 senior care facilities.

00:29:32.540 He could have been

00:29:33.020 training more nurses.

00:29:34.320 He could have been

00:29:34.920 bringing in equipment,

00:29:36.480 buying field tents,

00:29:37.460 if that's what it is.

00:29:38.360 But the fact of the matter

00:29:39.220 is our healthcare system

00:29:40.560 has been at 100%

00:29:41.600 for 20 years.

00:29:43.780 And so they say

00:29:44.440 we can't afford

00:29:45.040 to have anybody sick

00:29:45.880 because we don't have

00:29:46.520 the capacity.

00:29:47.560 We've had a year

00:29:48.320 and billions of dollars

00:29:49.240 spent and no capacity. 0.99

00:29:52.360 It's as pathetic now 0.99

00:29:53.860 as it was a year ago. 0.99

00:29:55.760 Only the people

00:29:56.540 are worn out

00:29:59.100 and exhausted

00:30:00.040 because of the way

00:30:00.820 they're operating

00:30:01.340 the system.

00:30:01.900 I spoke with

00:30:03.340 Premier Kenney

00:30:04.180 in December

00:30:04.840 and he had said

00:30:05.580 in that interview

00:30:06.140 and in other public fora

00:30:07.800 that he was quite proud

00:30:09.620 of Alberta

00:30:10.080 not going full lockdown

00:30:11.700 like other provinces

00:30:12.600 and having what he

00:30:13.360 characterizes

00:30:14.060 as relatively

00:30:15.300 laxer restrictions

00:30:18.140 compared to other jurisdictions.

00:30:19.960 Do you think

00:30:20.420 there is any credit

00:30:21.460 due there?

00:30:22.680 No.

00:30:23.760 Okay, well that was clear.

00:30:25.080 That was clear,

00:30:25.580 but why not?

00:30:26.120 Well, because, you know,

00:30:27.620 this is the problem

00:30:28.600 and why a government

00:30:29.220 needs to protect individuals.

00:30:30.640 For him to use numbers.

00:30:32.840 If you own a gym

00:30:34.280 and you put your life's work

00:30:35.800 into that

00:30:36.400 and you're told

00:30:37.460 that you can't open that gym,

00:30:39.260 have you done a good job?

00:30:40.500 Has he protected the interest?

00:30:41.860 I mean, he said

00:30:42.780 in December 11th

00:30:44.000 that I was wrong

00:30:44.760 to pick winners and losers.

00:30:46.660 It's not the government's job

00:30:48.320 to say these are essential services

00:30:50.320 and these aren't.

00:30:51.220 Especially when you see

00:30:52.160 what he picked

00:30:53.260 is even more disgusting. 0.61

00:30:55.160 And so, no,

00:30:55.880 if you're failing

00:30:56.760 whether it's 2%

00:30:58.440 or 15%

00:30:59.480 because of partisan politics,

00:31:01.640 that's a failure

00:31:02.640 in my books.

00:31:03.420 And there's way too many people

00:31:04.740 that have been

00:31:05.560 personally affected on this

00:31:07.060 and he can look

00:31:08.000 at the numbers

00:31:08.520 and say it's okay,

00:31:09.720 but it's not.

00:31:10.380 If you actually have

00:31:11.700 a just society,

00:31:14.000 we don't pick

00:31:14.920 winners and losers

00:31:15.860 and say,

00:31:16.400 well, we're all

00:31:17.300 in this together,

00:31:18.080 but Andrew,

00:31:18.560 you're the one

00:31:18.960 who has to sacrifice.

00:31:20.980 That's not right.

00:31:22.460 The former Wild Rose Alliance

00:31:24.840 and Wild Rose Party

00:31:25.800 had positioned itself

00:31:26.720 to the right of the PCs.

00:31:28.500 I think the way

00:31:29.520 that the Wild Rose Independence Party

00:31:31.040 now is characterized

00:31:31.980 is to the right of the UCP.

00:31:34.920 I want to ask you

00:31:35.660 if that's a reasonable characterization

00:31:37.540 because I would say

00:31:38.760 that independence itself,

00:31:40.680 just like you said

00:31:41.480 about a good healthcare system,

00:31:42.760 is not a left-right issue.

00:31:44.340 And, you know,

00:31:45.100 there are people

00:31:45.580 on the far left

00:31:46.520 that might be very thrilled

00:31:48.060 to say,

00:31:48.520 yeah, we want to be able

00:31:49.600 to have more socialism

00:31:50.580 in Alberta

00:31:51.140 or something like that.

00:31:52.520 Do you find

00:31:53.100 that there is a coalition

00:31:54.240 that's spanning

00:31:55.340 traditional political identity

00:31:57.320 or is this still

00:31:58.060 a conservative movement?

00:32:00.260 I want to say

00:32:01.860 as it continues to grow

00:32:03.340 and people see

00:32:04.240 government interference

00:32:05.500 and like for me,

00:32:07.380 when you talk about

00:32:08.080 the left or the right,

00:32:09.240 it's more,

00:32:09.900 do you want big government

00:32:10.940 or do you want

00:32:12.360 individual responsibility?

00:32:14.580 And there's always those

00:32:15.660 that are looking

00:32:16.120 at big government,

00:32:17.120 but we can look

00:32:18.320 and even see here in Alberta,

00:32:19.760 you know,

00:32:20.000 centralized healthcare

00:32:20.920 has failed.

00:32:22.080 Centralized education system

00:32:23.620 is not giving our children

00:32:25.080 the education system

00:32:26.140 they could have.

00:32:28.000 And so when you're actually

00:32:29.120 talking and looking

00:32:29.960 about individuals,

00:32:31.260 it's not left or right.

00:32:32.780 This is about good government.

00:32:34.080 This is taking

00:32:34.740 the taxpayer's money

00:32:35.880 and using it

00:32:37.280 in a prudent way

00:32:39.440 that we actually see

00:32:40.600 the cost-benefit analysis

00:32:42.020 and understand

00:32:42.940 that this is going

00:32:43.880 to be a better system.

00:32:45.320 But what we see right now

00:32:46.480 is just a growth

00:32:47.900 of government

00:32:48.740 and public services

00:32:50.500 that seem to be shrinking,

00:32:52.600 but government's growing

00:32:53.680 and management's growing

00:32:54.720 and we're managing

00:32:55.560 the managers.

00:32:56.960 And so, no,

00:32:57.500 I don't really think

00:32:58.280 it's so much

00:32:58.800 as the left

00:32:59.440 as the right

00:32:59.980 as it is,

00:33:00.840 is that, you know,

00:33:01.460 if we use taxpayers' money well,

00:33:03.340 if we have the,

00:33:04.680 how would you say it,

00:33:07.040 the structure of healthcare

00:33:09.120 and education

00:33:10.060 to the benefit

00:33:11.460 of every Albertan,

00:33:13.660 that's where we can go.

00:33:15.680 If the economy is booming,

00:33:17.360 our education,

00:33:18.620 our healthcare,

00:33:19.280 our senior care,

00:33:20.240 all of that

00:33:20.900 will be improving.

00:33:21.900 And so it's about,

00:33:23.540 to me,

00:33:24.000 it's kind of like an airplane.

00:33:25.040 You got your right wing,

00:33:25.900 you got your left wing.

00:33:27.140 The right wing's your economy,

00:33:28.440 the left wing's

00:33:29.000 your social programs

00:33:29.960 and they balance out.

00:33:31.060 As government,

00:33:31.720 we spend what we bring in

00:33:33.380 and we can soar

00:33:34.840 to new heights

00:33:35.520 if we keep it balanced.

00:33:36.940 But when you're running deficits,

00:33:38.100 when you're, you know,

00:33:39.700 doing all of this crazy stuff

00:33:41.320 with the economy

00:33:42.060 and shutting down

00:33:42.840 different areas,

00:33:44.140 it's just a matter of

00:33:45.600 when the right wing's failing,

00:33:47.300 we're going to go

00:33:48.020 into a death spiral.

00:33:49.320 And again,

00:33:50.060 the social services

00:33:50.920 are just eating up everything

00:33:52.940 and undermining our future.

00:33:54.960 Yeah, I mean,

00:33:55.500 and I get that,

00:33:56.280 that you don't want to view it

00:33:57.440 entirely as left versus right,

00:33:59.300 but you know politics

00:34:00.160 and you know political coalitions.

00:34:01.900 So I guess the better way

00:34:03.460 to ask it is,

00:34:04.120 do you see support,

00:34:05.320 and I know you're leading

00:34:06.220 a young party relatively,

00:34:07.440 but do you see support

00:34:08.500 as coming from disenfranchised

00:34:10.240 UCP voters

00:34:11.020 or do you also see people

00:34:12.640 that have historically voted

00:34:13.920 for the NDP,

00:34:15.140 for the Liberal,

00:34:15.920 for the Alberta party,

00:34:17.040 do you see them

00:34:17.720 as joining this?

00:34:19.020 And if not,

00:34:20.280 I guess the extension of that

00:34:21.200 is if not,

00:34:22.100 how will this not just be

00:34:23.500 in effect splitting

00:34:25.440 the UCP vote

00:34:26.360 come the next election?

00:34:27.700 Well, that's an excellent

00:34:28.780 question, Andrew.

00:34:29.640 And I guess I'd have to say

00:34:30.820 is the question is,

00:34:32.000 is splitting the vote,

00:34:33.560 are you standing up

00:34:34.540 for Alberta

00:34:35.140 or are you standing up

00:34:36.460 for Ottawa?

00:34:37.220 And when you look

00:34:37.720 at the NDP

00:34:38.380 and the UCP,

00:34:40.960 they're very much

00:34:41.620 standing with Ottawa

00:34:42.520 and what we're actually doing

00:34:44.060 is standing up

00:34:44.800 for Alberta.

00:34:46.100 And yes,

00:34:47.480 the majority of people

00:34:49.400 that are supporting us

00:34:50.340 are people

00:34:50.780 that have conservative principles

00:34:52.480 and realize

00:34:53.580 that the proper role

00:34:54.540 of government,

00:34:55.520 they want more freedoms,

00:34:56.780 they want their individual

00:34:57.920 rights protected,

00:34:59.160 they want property

00:34:59.920 rights protected.

00:35:01.160 I mean,

00:35:01.460 Jason and Rachel

00:35:02.800 are the same way.

00:35:03.560 They haven't said anything

00:35:04.840 about, you know,

00:35:05.560 the order and council

00:35:06.320 on the gun grab.

00:35:08.180 It's not,

00:35:08.600 people want

00:35:10.080 a province

00:35:11.900 that's actually going

00:35:12.500 to stand up

00:35:13.040 for their property rights,

00:35:14.020 stand up for their freedoms.

00:35:15.220 And when it comes

00:35:15.700 to COVID

00:35:16.160 and the property,

00:35:16.800 all those things,

00:35:17.620 these two previous governments

00:35:19.480 are failing Albertans.

00:35:21.420 But yes,

00:35:22.080 it's conservative principles

00:35:23.300 that we're based on.

00:35:25.100 Maxime Bernier

00:35:25.900 had mentioned something

00:35:26.940 in his remarks

00:35:27.620 this weekend

00:35:28.120 that I found

00:35:28.740 quite interesting,

00:35:29.680 which was that

00:35:30.280 the solution

00:35:31.340 to this issue

00:35:32.000 is not going

00:35:32.460 to come

00:35:32.760 from a federal party

00:35:34.100 with an Alberta focus,

00:35:35.520 but rather a provincial party

00:35:36.980 with an Alberta focus.

00:35:38.440 And he was,

00:35:38.820 of course,

00:35:39.080 taking a very direct swipe

00:35:40.300 at the Maverick Party,

00:35:41.220 which has been established

00:35:42.320 at the federal level.

00:35:43.320 And I was curious

00:35:43.860 for your thoughts

00:35:44.400 because you're going

00:35:45.300 the provincial route.

00:35:46.140 You've been a provincial MLA.

00:35:47.320 You're leading now

00:35:47.960 a provincial party.

00:35:49.640 Why is this

00:35:50.720 something that can't

00:35:52.620 be addressed

00:35:53.160 in the way

00:35:54.180 that the Maverick Party

00:35:55.040 is trying to

00:35:55.620 by being a federal party

00:35:56.960 pushing an Alberta

00:35:58.080 first mandate?

00:35:59.320 Well,

00:35:59.520 the question is,

00:36:00.340 do you just want

00:36:01.000 to be a roadblock?

00:36:02.000 Or do you actually

00:36:02.480 want to see change?

00:36:04.500 And just with

00:36:05.240 the Maverick Party,

00:36:06.820 their limitations are

00:36:07.920 is that they're

00:36:08.600 just going out there

00:36:09.540 to be able

00:36:10.380 to speak up for us.

00:36:11.760 But whether we have

00:36:12.740 zero people

00:36:13.880 speaking up for us

00:36:15.040 or 20 percent,

00:36:16.860 under our Constitution,

00:36:18.100 the way things are,

00:36:18.780 it makes no difference

00:36:19.720 because it's the voting

00:36:20.800 that counts.

00:36:21.860 And whether,

00:36:22.240 you know,

00:36:22.680 Maxine did an excellent job

00:36:23.960 on the Triple E Senate,

00:36:25.140 okay,

00:36:25.960 we're only represented

00:36:27.000 at six percent

00:36:28.080 in the Senate,

00:36:29.100 so it doesn't work for us.

00:36:30.100 If we have

00:36:30.940 equal Senate,

00:36:32.440 we're going to get

00:36:33.200 10 or 11 percent.

00:36:35.060 It's still a minority.

00:36:35.960 Still 90 percent

00:36:36.860 against you.

00:36:37.580 And again,

00:36:38.200 it goes back

00:36:38.720 to a referendum,

00:36:39.700 you know.

00:36:40.080 It doesn't matter

00:36:40.820 whether you get

00:36:41.220 9 percent or 49 percent,

00:36:43.280 you've failed.

00:36:44.460 And so,

00:36:45.360 with Max...

00:36:45.640 The old line for my dad

00:36:46.480 is that close

00:36:46.980 is only good

00:36:47.480 in horseshoes

00:36:48.020 and hand grenades.

00:36:48.720 And 10 percent

00:36:50.280 isn't even close.

00:36:51.180 No.

00:36:51.640 And again,

00:36:52.220 what Maxine is offering,

00:36:53.560 though,

00:36:53.700 is a solution

00:36:54.440 to radically

00:36:55.720 decentralize Canada,

00:36:57.320 which needs to be done.

00:36:58.860 You know,

00:36:58.980 central government

00:36:59.620 doesn't work.

00:37:00.480 And what Ontario

00:37:01.340 or Quebec wants

00:37:02.320 isn't what Alberta

00:37:03.480 wants or needs.

00:37:04.620 And it's the same.

00:37:05.560 And so,

00:37:06.160 no,

00:37:06.700 I totally agree

00:37:07.560 with Maxine

00:37:08.140 and the principles

00:37:08.820 that he is governing

00:37:10.540 on and offering

00:37:12.480 to Canadians.

00:37:13.620 Those will work.

00:37:14.560 It's a solution.

00:37:15.940 The Wild Rose

00:37:16.580 Independence Party,

00:37:17.600 like,

00:37:17.780 we have solutions.

00:37:19.140 You know,

00:37:19.300 we have a major problem

00:37:20.440 with the police force

00:37:21.380 in rural Alberta.

00:37:22.780 RCMP are not able

00:37:23.780 to accomplish

00:37:25.180 what we need.

00:37:26.320 We need to have

00:37:26.800 our own police force

00:37:27.600 with civilian oversight.

00:37:29.260 You know,

00:37:29.460 the pension plan

00:37:30.260 is not working

00:37:31.460 for Albertans.

00:37:33.180 It's costing us money.

00:37:34.540 We could actually

00:37:35.220 enhance the benefits

00:37:36.500 and reduce the premiums

00:37:37.920 if we had a provincial one

00:37:39.200 like Quebec has. 0.71

00:37:40.840 So,

00:37:41.100 all of these things

00:37:41.780 that our current

00:37:42.580 and past governments

00:37:43.740 are failing on,

00:37:44.640 and we're offering,

00:37:45.880 you know,

00:37:46.400 an improved opportunity

00:37:48.120 and quality of life

00:37:49.060 for Albertans

00:37:49.740 with what we're proposing.

00:37:52.180 I think there's a lot

00:37:53.020 of misconceptions

00:37:53.560 about what it is

00:37:55.280 that the Alberta

00:37:55.800 independence movement

00:37:56.520 is about

00:37:56.980 and I guess that would

00:37:57.600 extend to your party.

00:37:58.580 So,

00:37:59.100 I have to ask you,

00:38:00.200 is your party

00:38:01.420 and your view,

00:38:01.980 are you envisioning

00:38:02.660 a separatist party?

00:38:04.320 Well,

00:38:04.680 we're the Wild Rose

00:38:05.320 Independence Party

00:38:06.240 of Alberta

00:38:06.740 and it's about independence

00:38:08.880 and people will argue

00:38:10.220 back and forth,

00:38:10.980 you know,

00:38:11.120 a separatist,

00:38:11.740 independent,

00:38:12.940 we're about independence.

00:38:14.660 It's about putting

00:38:15.140 our house in order,

00:38:16.400 showing Albertans

00:38:17.200 that look,

00:38:18.200 this is what we can do

00:38:19.160 as a government

00:38:19.720 for you

00:38:20.340 and they can see

00:38:21.320 the benefits of it

00:38:22.300 and then Albertans

00:38:23.520 will get to decide

00:38:24.280 in a referendum

00:38:25.040 whether they want

00:38:25.740 to be a sovereign nation

00:38:26.760 or part of Canada.

00:38:28.460 So,

00:38:28.660 your view is

00:38:29.060 that independence

00:38:29.680 and separation

00:38:31.000 are not inherently

00:38:32.000 synonymous?

00:38:33.120 Well,

00:38:33.500 no,

00:38:33.720 like a lot of

00:38:34.180 separatist party

00:38:35.020 and again,

00:38:35.700 this is what you hear

00:38:36.320 with the Fair Deal

00:38:37.000 panel and everything

00:38:37.780 is use it as a leverage,

00:38:38.900 threaten,

00:38:39.740 you know,

00:38:40.120 we're going to

00:38:41.520 threaten this

00:38:42.380 if we don't get that

00:38:43.260 and some people

00:38:43.720 if we don't,

00:38:44.300 like Jason Kenney's

00:38:45.560 thing is,

00:38:45.960 if we don't get pipelines,

00:38:47.320 we're going to have

00:38:47.760 a referendum

00:38:48.220 on equalization

00:38:49.240 and what we're about

00:38:50.840 is actually about

00:38:52.460 independent Alberta

00:38:55.140 that actually has control

00:38:57.120 of our taxation,

00:38:58.200 has control

00:38:58.800 of our environmental act,

00:39:00.280 has control

00:39:00.840 on our immigration,

00:39:01.920 has control,

00:39:03.000 you know,

00:39:03.380 on all aspects

00:39:04.460 of our lives

00:39:05.140 but right now

00:39:05.960 the federal intrusion

00:39:06.980 is just killing Alberta, 0.67

00:39:08.680 the economy,

00:39:09.440 the future,

00:39:10.040 the hope,

00:39:10.620 our taxation

00:39:11.260 and so we need

00:39:12.640 to be independent

00:39:13.920 from Ottawa.

00:39:15.340 Interim leader

00:39:15.980 of the Wild Rose

00:39:16.920 Independence Party,

00:39:17.860 Paul Hinman.

00:39:18.420 Paul,

00:39:18.620 thanks very much

00:39:19.160 for your time.

00:39:19.460 Thank you,

00:39:20.100 Andrew.

00:39:20.980 Now,

00:39:21.520 I must say

00:39:22.160 just on a general note here,

00:39:23.480 I know a lot of

00:39:24.180 Alberta independence folks

00:39:25.500 just love hearing

00:39:27.020 someone from Ontario

00:39:28.160 talk to them

00:39:29.060 about Western alienation

00:39:30.400 and Western independence

00:39:31.280 but as I've always said,

00:39:32.520 I've got more of an

00:39:33.060 Alberta sensibility

00:39:33.860 about me

00:39:34.300 than I do

00:39:34.740 an Ontario sensibility

00:39:36.360 and I always appreciate

00:39:37.260 the hospitality

00:39:37.980 of the people of Alberta

00:39:39.620 whenever I'm out here.

00:39:40.980 I can say that

00:39:41.640 because I'm actually

00:39:42.000 in Alberta right now

00:39:43.100 but I do think

00:39:44.380 that there was a lot

00:39:45.160 in that

00:39:45.780 that was very interesting

00:39:46.840 and certainly relevant

00:39:48.060 to the political discourse

00:39:49.300 moving forward.

00:39:50.360 Now,

00:39:50.560 we know in Canada

00:39:51.180 how difficult it is

00:39:52.100 for upstart parties.

00:39:53.760 Every now and then

00:39:54.540 someone has the ability

00:39:55.600 to ride a wave

00:39:56.400 and achieve a very early success

00:39:58.080 but in a lot of cases,

00:39:59.660 as Maxime has said,

00:40:00.640 you have to build

00:40:01.360 this thing over time.

00:40:02.920 A lot of people feel

00:40:03.820 like they just don't

00:40:05.020 have that time now

00:40:06.140 and we are reaching

00:40:07.360 a boiling point

00:40:08.120 and things like

00:40:08.840 the carbon tax

00:40:09.660 Supreme Court decision

00:40:10.740 will only hasten

00:40:12.480 the arrival

00:40:13.120 of that boiling point

00:40:14.660 which is why

00:40:15.220 I wanted to have

00:40:16.000 these conversations.

00:40:17.220 I know it's a complex issue.

00:40:18.560 I know there's

00:40:19.060 no silver bullet

00:40:19.820 but at the very least,

00:40:21.160 we need to have

00:40:21.700 that discussion

00:40:22.400 which the federal liberals

00:40:23.960 and the mainstream media

00:40:24.820 are completely

00:40:25.640 and utterly

00:40:26.160 uninterested in having.

00:40:27.660 They would be

00:40:28.100 just as happy

00:40:28.760 if you could just

00:40:29.680 like Bugs Bunny,

00:40:31.020 just take a big giant

00:40:31.900 hacksaw

00:40:32.500 and carve the West

00:40:34.060 out of the picture

00:40:34.780 and not have to worry

00:40:35.880 about them

00:40:36.320 but you can't do that

00:40:37.480 and you don't want to see

00:40:38.260 what happens to the

00:40:39.040 Canadian economy

00:40:39.800 if you do.

00:40:41.600 My thanks again

00:40:42.360 to Danny Hozak

00:40:43.580 for having me out

00:40:44.300 and to all of those

00:40:45.180 tuning in

00:40:45.720 as well as

00:40:46.440 Maxime Bernier,

00:40:47.220 Paul Hinman

00:40:47.720 and once again Danny

00:40:49.000 for sitting down

00:40:49.880 with me in Alberta.

00:40:51.240 I am off next week

00:40:52.700 but we'll be back

00:40:53.400 in just a couple of weeks

00:40:54.480 time with more

00:40:55.180 of Canada's

00:40:55.880 most irreverent talk show.

00:40:57.600 This is the Andrew Lawton

00:40:58.440 Show here on True North.

00:40:59.680 Thank you,

00:41:00.180 God bless

00:41:00.580 and good day to you all.

00:41:02.040 Thanks for listening

00:41:02.680 to the Andrew Lawton Show.

00:41:04.200 Support the program

00:41:04.920 by donating to True North

00:41:06.160 at www.tnc.news.

Juno News - April 01, 2021

De-Alienating the West

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