Juno News - April 01, 2021


De-Alienating the West


Episode Stats


Length

41 minutes

Words per minute

192.3915

Word count

7,918

Sentence count

396

Harmful content

Misogyny

3

sentences flagged

Hate speech

3

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Coming up, an in-depth, deep dive into Western alienation with three interviews of people with very different perspectives on what the problem is and how it might be solved. Andrew Lawton's interview with Danny Hozak of the Economic Development Association of Alberta (EDA) and the Freedom Talk Conference in Lloydminster, Alberta.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.
00:00:06.660 This is The Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.
00:00:12.760 Coming up, an in-depth, deep dive into Western alienation
00:00:16.260 with three interviews of people with very different perspectives
00:00:19.020 on what the problem is and how it might be solved.
00:00:23.980 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.
00:00:30.000 Hello and welcome to another on-location edition of The Andrew Lawton Show,
00:00:34.400 Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show on True North.
00:00:37.320 Once again, coming to you from Alberta.
00:00:39.460 Well, I'm here producing Assaulted, Justin Trudeau's War on Gun Owners,
00:00:43.240 talking about the things that are affecting gun owners,
00:00:46.240 people in the gun industry, sports shooters,
00:00:48.400 all of these folks whose stories are not being told by the mainstream media
00:00:51.540 and whose experiences are being completely disregarded
00:00:54.760 and rejected by Justin Trudeau and the Liberals.
00:00:57.920 I do actually want to focus on another Western topic on this show,
00:01:02.280 which is Western alienation.
00:01:04.020 Last week, I spent a bit of time talking about the carbon tax
00:01:07.360 and the Supreme Court's decision that the carbon tax is unconstitutional.
00:01:11.520 And one point I raised in that discussion was Western alienation.
00:01:15.280 Because the Alberta Court of Appeal found that the carbon tax was unconstitutional,
00:01:20.000 Jason Kenney has been a very fierce opponent of the carbon tax,
00:01:23.580 arguing that Alberta can look after itself, not just in this area, but in many others.
00:01:29.400 And when the federal government is not just imposing a carbon tax on Albertans,
00:01:33.560 but continuing to ramp up efforts to really diminish the power and scope of the energy sector,
00:01:40.760 it's easy for people in the West to get more and more unnerved by the situation.
00:01:45.620 And these were topics that were spotlighted at a conference a few weeks back
00:01:50.400 in Lloydminster, Alberta, that dealt with Western alienation,
00:01:54.380 the Freedom Talk conference, which had to take on a bit of a virtual slash hybrid format.
00:01:59.240 There were a few people in the room because you were allowed to under the public health guidelines,
00:02:03.640 but most people tuned in.
00:02:05.080 I was fortunate enough as a speaker to be there and talking about,
00:02:09.100 in a lot of ways, the media bias and that aspect of the discussion.
00:02:12.480 But I also sat down with a few of the major players in politics,
00:02:16.800 a couple of whom are very strongly in the independence discussions in Alberta,
00:02:21.380 to talk about how the West can get what it wants.
00:02:25.180 And one important thing to point here,
00:02:27.080 especially for people who aren't from Alberta or Saskatchewan or the parts of BC
00:02:31.380 that tend to be good on these issues, not Vancouver,
00:02:33.400 no offense to those who are tuning in from Vancouver,
00:02:36.100 is that Western independence isn't just about separation.
00:02:39.420 And, you know, there are a lot of people that are saying,
00:02:41.760 we're done with confederation, we want out.
00:02:43.840 But a lot of people say, listen, I love Canada, I love this country, I don't love Ottawa.
00:02:48.440 And that's a very important distinction.
00:02:50.940 People that say they like the country, but not the government,
00:02:54.100 separating the government from its people and from other aspects of the national existence.
00:02:59.280 And a lot of those people are very open to finding a new way to make confederation work.
00:03:03.720 But you need a fierce ally in Ottawa, or at the very least someone who's receptive to what you need,
00:03:10.200 and you need a strong spokesperson in Alberta,
00:03:12.720 which there is some contingent of the Conservative base in Alberta
00:03:16.420 that doesn't think Jason Kenney is doing that.
00:03:19.240 But I wanted to talk about this from a few different perspectives.
00:03:22.040 One of them was my conversation with Danny Hozak,
00:03:24.760 who is the chairman of the Economic Education Association of Alberta,
00:03:28.620 which puts on the Freedom Talk, and he's invited me out a number of times.
00:03:32.040 But he also has a very unique perspective on this.
00:03:34.860 And what he said time and time again is that it's not about separation,
00:03:38.900 it's about understanding that you have to work towards a process that is better for Alberta
00:03:45.000 and an outcome that is better for Alberta.
00:03:47.320 And if everyone along the way decides to abandon that,
00:03:50.020 he says separation is the last resort.
00:03:52.140 But here's my conversation with Danny Hozak,
00:03:54.480 outlining a number of the themes of the Freedom Talk,
00:03:57.140 but also in general the themes of independence.
00:03:59.780 Keeping in mind that Jason Kenney has promised a referendum on equalization.
00:04:05.340 You've done nine of these Freedom Talks now.
00:04:08.060 This is my third.
00:04:09.040 I've had the great privilege of coming for the last three years in a row now.
00:04:12.820 This one's a little bit different.
00:04:14.160 You've had to do a combination of virtual and a small number in person.
00:04:17.800 But in the time that you've been doing this,
00:04:20.640 the dialogue has changed about independence.
00:04:23.220 Would you say things are getting better or worse?
00:04:25.100 Well, it's getting better for the independent side
00:04:29.040 because things are getting worse in our province and our country.
00:04:32.980 What is it that you feel needs to be the goal now?
00:04:36.860 Because I know there has been a lot of talk at both this conference
00:04:39.500 and also last year in the summer when you were talking about the referendum.
00:04:44.660 Is that really the best hope right now?
00:04:48.100 Or is it just one of many tools?
00:04:49.980 I think it's just one of many tools.
00:04:51.560 And I mean, I think there's a combination of things that need to be done.
00:04:56.420 But the first thing that Albertans have to do is
00:04:58.100 they need to set their mind to taking charge of their own destiny.
00:05:01.660 And there's a whole list of things.
00:05:03.180 You know, in our last conference, we called it the Firewall Plus.
00:05:06.120 You know what I mean?
00:05:06.420 We need to do those things.
00:05:08.300 We need to have our own police force.
00:05:09.520 We need to have our own pension.
00:05:10.560 We need to collect our own taxes.
00:05:11.720 And so we need to do these things.
00:05:13.940 We need to sort of prepare ourselves for adulthood,
00:05:16.860 if you want to call that, in our country,
00:05:18.640 where we take charge of all these things.
00:05:20.540 Quite frankly, and I think Paul Heman makes a good case,
00:05:23.560 he said, like, we're not ready for flat-out independence yet.
00:05:26.020 We have a lot of homework to do before we're ready.
00:05:28.520 So I think that's our goal, is to sort of facilitate that discussion,
00:05:32.120 help prepare Alberta for the future,
00:05:34.240 help them be ready to take charge of their own destiny.
00:05:36.940 One of the interesting things about the discussion you've facilitated about the referendum
00:05:41.400 is that it's not just about independence.
00:05:44.220 It's not just about do we leave or do we stay, or do we change equalization.
00:05:47.900 You've actually tried, and John Robson, who spoke first thing,
00:05:51.500 I think, on the conference Friday morning,
00:05:53.000 had advocated for really expanding the referendum to become, in many cases,
00:05:57.900 I don't mean this in a negative way,
00:05:59.840 but a laundry list of questions that even go down to specific policies.
00:06:04.040 What was the thrust behind that?
00:06:05.640 Well, the referendum that you're talking about expanding
00:06:09.760 is the referendum that Jason Kenney has promised for this fall on equalization.
00:06:14.020 And our thrust was, well, if we're going to take the time
00:06:16.400 and spend the money to have a referendum on equalization,
00:06:19.220 quite frankly, most of us, you know,
00:06:21.000 we think Jason campaigned on doing something about equalization,
00:06:24.040 but if he thinks we need to have a referendum to garner more public support for it,
00:06:27.880 that's fine by us.
00:06:29.080 But there's, like, time is marching on here.
00:06:31.040 We had the Fair Deal panel.
00:06:32.820 They recommended we have our own police force.
00:06:34.620 The government's response to that was to study having our own police force.
00:06:37.800 Like, I mean, we want to have a referendum and say,
00:06:39.860 look, we the people think we should have our own police force,
00:06:42.960 not should you study it, we should do it.
00:06:44.540 Just figure out how to do it, just the way we figured out to get, you know,
00:06:47.360 oil out of sand.
00:06:48.220 Figure out how to do it.
00:06:49.240 Figure out how to collect our own money.
00:06:50.920 Figure out how to have our own pension plan.
00:06:52.660 So we want to expand the list, and we're talking about that right now downstairs.
00:06:57.080 We're talking about what five things should we ask the Alberta government to put on the ballot.
00:07:02.540 And right at the moment, the police force is at the top of it.
00:07:05.360 And I think every time Justin Trudeau talks about taking our guns,
00:07:09.300 you know, with support for our own police force so that we can discipline ourselves, so to speak.
00:07:14.500 So anyway, we're hoping to come up with four or five questions that we will suggest to the government.
00:07:19.840 Say, look, why don't you include them on the referendum this fall?
00:07:23.540 And I think that there's something to that,
00:07:25.600 because the equalization is probably one of the most notable examples
00:07:29.260 of how the East can take from the West.
00:07:32.480 But it doesn't really encapsulate the entirety of the problem,
00:07:36.820 which is a lack of independence in confederation.
00:07:39.400 And I wanted to ask you about that,
00:07:40.940 because I know that the prevailing chorus has historically been,
00:07:44.700 you know, not necessarily a separation, but separation if necessary.
00:07:48.480 Absolutely, yes.
00:07:49.260 Or not necessarily independence, but if necessary.
00:07:51.020 What are the things that you would want to see happen between now and that point
00:07:55.700 that would make it so that that anger that fuels the separation dialogue isn't as potent?
00:08:01.000 You mentioned police force.
00:08:02.180 What else?
00:08:02.720 What else is being put forward?
00:08:04.080 Well, there's the police force collecting all the taxes in the province,
00:08:07.940 it's the having our own pension plan.
00:08:10.800 I mean, there's a lot, like, we subsidize the Canada pension just about as bad
00:08:17.080 as we subsidize equalization.
00:08:18.700 So we need to do that.
00:08:19.820 So there's the police, there's the pension, there's the collecting our own tax,
00:08:24.200 there's having our own unemployment program,
00:08:26.180 and, you know, more and more, being in charge of our own immigration,
00:08:30.980 saying, look, I mean, when we've got 100 and some thousand unemployed workers,
00:08:35.940 maybe more, maybe 200,000, we don't really need any more immigration 0.99
00:08:40.680 until we get that sorted out.
00:08:42.240 So there's a list of those things.
00:08:44.160 Again, it goes back to the firewall plus, yes.
00:08:46.540 And a lot of what you're describing, there's precedent for in Canada.
00:08:50.120 People tend to overcomplicate things by saying, well,
00:08:52.300 you're going to need this constitutional amendment and this and that,
00:08:55.200 but a lot of what you're describing exists squarely within provincial jurisdiction.
00:08:59.160 There just hasn't been a province that's availed themselves of it.
00:09:02.420 And why do you think historically, you've been involved in Alberta politics
00:09:05.220 for a long time, even prior to the Redford years.
00:09:08.800 Why did conservative leaders in Alberta not do this?
00:09:13.440 You know, quite frankly, I think it was because, like, we were so wealthy,
00:09:17.840 the money was rolling in so easily, it was just, they were, quite frankly,
00:09:21.260 it was a failure of leadership.
00:09:22.560 I mean, to me, like, if they'd have been the board of directors
00:09:26.000 of a public company, they'd be getting sued for malfeasance right now,
00:09:29.280 the way they have, like, mishandled negotiating for us.
00:09:33.260 I don't blame Quebec for what they've got.
00:09:35.520 I blame the people that we hired to represent us.
00:09:37.860 And, I mean, we've been poorly, I mean, some of these are my dear friends,
00:09:40.940 but, I mean, at the end of the day, they haven't served us well
00:09:43.620 with the way they've let us down in some of these negotiations.
00:09:48.560 And so, you know, I think it just boiled down to, you know, when life is easy,
00:09:54.180 I mean, the money was rolling in so easy, it didn't really matter.
00:09:56.720 And, I mean, Paul Hyman practically begged the finance minister
00:09:59.760 not to re-sign the equalization thing in 2004, and she wouldn't do it.
00:10:06.420 I mean, had we done it then, you look back and say, if only, you know what I mean?
00:10:09.900 Yeah, and you do mention something important there,
00:10:12.160 which is that when things are really great, the energy sector's booming,
00:10:16.340 the economy's booming, Alberta was fairly charitable.
00:10:19.640 Now, some of that was structurally, not necessarily by choice,
00:10:22.060 but Alberta was fairly charitable. 0.94
00:10:23.800 And then when the tide turned, and when Alberta was going through its own hardship,
00:10:28.180 it was still subsidizing the rest of Canada, but Albertans were suffering.
00:10:32.300 And you're right that there was a bit of a shift there,
00:10:34.720 where Alberta was all of a sudden saying,
00:10:36.320 okay, well, we've been doing so much for the rest of Canada for so long,
00:10:39.860 where's the support for us now?
00:10:41.200 And instead, what do we have?
00:10:42.520 Other provinces that are resisting pipelines,
00:10:45.300 federal leaders from the Laurentian elite that are trying to say,
00:10:48.320 we don't need the energy sector, we need to phase out the oil sands.
00:10:51.720 And, you know, Alberta was there for Canada,
00:10:53.960 but Canada wasn't there when the chips were down for Alberta.
00:10:56.760 Yeah, like, not only were they not there for us,
00:10:59.320 like, they were actively working to make our life more difficult.
00:11:02.380 You know what I mean?
00:11:02.720 And so, like, it's, and after a while, you just say,
00:11:05.500 well, this is crazy, you know what I mean?
00:11:07.040 And so, and I mean, more and more people are starting to say that now.
00:11:10.020 And so, you know, it'll be interesting to see what happens as we go forward.
00:11:14.020 One of the things that I have to commend you on,
00:11:17.060 even in the span of the last three Freedom Talks I've been at,
00:11:20.320 the level of frustration is still there.
00:11:23.260 But it seems to get a bit more focused and a bit more channeled every time.
00:11:27.260 And now, even what you've been talking about,
00:11:29.080 about synthesizing all of these referendum questions that you want on there,
00:11:33.200 there's a very productive approach to that.
00:11:36.180 But at the same time, you still need people in elected office to listen.
00:11:39.600 But you do.
00:11:40.980 And I mean, the thing is, in fairness to them,
00:11:44.320 the people in elected office can't go somewhere
00:11:46.480 that the people haven't decided they should go.
00:11:49.060 You know what I mean?
00:11:49.440 So they have their role to play.
00:11:51.180 We have our role to play.
00:11:52.300 You know what I mean?
00:11:52.840 And we have to be respectful of the fact that
00:11:55.840 they're doing what they think is best for the province.
00:11:58.760 You know what I mean?
00:11:59.400 But, and again, I don't blame our leaders so much
00:12:02.980 is sometimes the people who have voted for them were,
00:12:05.840 you know, they were just too casual in saying,
00:12:07.760 well, it'll probably be all right.
00:12:09.240 And so, and I think we really have,
00:12:10.800 we've been leading the discussion on climate.
00:12:12.700 We've been leading the discussion on debt and deficit.
00:12:14.820 Now we're leading this discussion on the questions
00:12:17.680 that should be on the ballot.
00:12:18.960 We pride ourselves, you know,
00:12:20.820 mostly with the, you know,
00:12:23.520 the guidance and the counselling of John Robson.
00:12:26.020 Say, look, let's be the adults in the room.
00:12:27.900 Let's be, let's try and have an intelligent,
00:12:30.640 respectful discussion of what the issue is.
00:12:32.820 Let's look at, you know, what the options are.
00:12:35.340 Let's look at the pros and cons of the different options.
00:12:37.760 And then let's let the people decide what we should do.
00:12:40.120 Just like we're doing right now.
00:12:41.440 We're using that Slido app
00:12:42.940 with some of the people are in the room
00:12:44.620 and some of the people are online.
00:12:45.840 We're saying, okay, this is the options.
00:12:47.440 How many of you are in favour of this?
00:12:49.200 You know what I mean?
00:12:49.860 And so we're trying to facilitate the discussion
00:12:52.040 and we're trying to get more and more people involved,
00:12:53.960 which as you know, is a challenge.
00:12:55.720 But I want to say, while we're talking,
00:12:58.560 is how much we appreciate like the independent media
00:13:01.700 and what you and True North do
00:13:03.460 and our friends at the Western Standard
00:13:05.140 and the Rebel News, I mean...
00:13:06.820 Well, not to do it our own horns,
00:13:07.880 but we've been the only media
00:13:08.840 that have covered these conferences,
00:13:09.920 which have been tremendous.
00:13:11.520 I remember the first one I was at pre-pandemic,
00:13:13.540 over 400 people.
00:13:14.020 400 people.
00:13:14.740 Yeah, absolutely.
00:13:16.080 And not one person from the $2.4 billion
00:13:18.760 subsidized mainstream media even commented on,
00:13:21.700 let alone came and commented.
00:13:22.920 And so, yes, I mean,
00:13:24.300 we wouldn't be getting our message out at all
00:13:25.920 if it weren't for you.
00:13:26.540 And we are very grateful for that.
00:13:28.280 And I mean, I think it's good business for you.
00:13:30.060 You're obviously hopefully finding a market that...
00:13:32.240 But I, you know, like John made that point yesterday morning.
00:13:35.700 He said, like, for all you folks, like,
00:13:38.480 that, you know, have two or three coffees every day
00:13:40.380 at Tim Hortons, no disrespect to Tim Hortons,
00:13:42.240 but if you gave that,
00:13:43.480 some of that money to independent media,
00:13:45.400 and if you want to win, we're going to have to do it.
00:13:47.980 And one of the things that you and I talked about
00:13:49.980 when we were discussing you coming this time,
00:13:51.580 we said, there's no point in having a referendum
00:13:53.660 if we don't have independent media
00:13:55.240 to get the facts out there of the people.
00:13:57.140 Because so many people,
00:13:58.260 all they know is what CBC told them,
00:14:00.020 which, as you know,
00:14:00.620 is increasingly further and further from the truth.
00:14:04.080 Absolutely.
00:14:04.620 So Alberta could have its own public broadcaster
00:14:06.540 if it wanted to be on CBC.
00:14:08.120 That's right, yeah.
00:14:08.920 Danny Ozak, I appreciate you letting me be a part of this,
00:14:11.040 both as a journalist and also as a speaker.
00:14:12.840 Thank you.
00:14:13.460 Thanks for having me on.
00:14:14.660 We'll look forward to seeing you at our next conference.
00:14:16.740 Absolutely.
00:14:17.200 Thank you.
00:14:17.900 I have got a lot of time for Danny,
00:14:19.440 and I must say,
00:14:20.040 I think it's interesting how he's framed this
00:14:22.060 as being not just about equalization.
00:14:24.380 In a lot of ways,
00:14:25.420 equalization payments that Alberta has to give
00:14:28.300 to subsidize other provinces
00:14:30.060 like Quebec and Atlantic Canada,
00:14:32.100 these are certainly frustrations,
00:14:34.040 and it's a very reasonable thing to be concerned about.
00:14:37.060 But in a lot of ways,
00:14:38.140 it's not the be-all and end-all,
00:14:39.840 and it tends to overshadow other feelings of alienation
00:14:43.700 that people in the West have.
00:14:46.700 And one of the interesting discussions that came about
00:14:49.540 was the comparison between Alberta and Quebec.
00:14:52.440 Now, a lot of Alberta conservatives
00:14:54.400 or Alberta independence-minded folks
00:14:56.300 very much rejected this
00:14:57.860 because they see Quebec as being the example
00:14:59.960 of, you know, just the greatest leech in Canada.
00:15:02.580 That's the perception to a lot of Albertans.
00:15:05.540 But one thing Quebec has done,
00:15:07.140 or a number of things Quebec has done very well,
00:15:09.900 is asserted its independence on things
00:15:12.320 and said to the federal government,
00:15:13.700 you know what?
00:15:14.240 Come and get me.
00:15:14.960 And now, Quebec is a bit different
00:15:17.620 because it has a language basis
00:15:19.520 for its cultural identity,
00:15:21.400 and that's a language basis
00:15:22.680 that the government of Canada
00:15:23.780 historically wants to accept,
00:15:25.920 or at the very least is scared of.
00:15:28.280 Nevertheless, Quebec has done
00:15:29.900 what a lot of Albertans want to,
00:15:32.000 which is bring a lot of things
00:15:33.320 that are currently under federal jurisdiction
00:15:35.080 into the provincial realm,
00:15:36.920 whether it is a police force,
00:15:39.100 whether it is a pension plan,
00:15:40.740 or any number of policy areas.
00:15:42.860 And Maxime Bernier,
00:15:44.060 the leader of the People's Party of Canada,
00:15:46.260 on whose show I actually appeared
00:15:47.940 as a guest just a few days ago,
00:15:50.300 he was one of the speakers.
00:15:51.340 Now, he's a federalist.
00:15:52.280 He's not from Alberta.
00:15:53.560 They call him the Albertan from Quebec,
00:15:54.980 but he's a guy who very much
00:15:57.040 wants Canada to stay together.
00:15:59.220 But he was saying that Alberta
00:16:00.920 can learn from Quebec,
00:16:02.840 which I found was interesting.
00:16:04.480 And talking to some of the few attendees
00:16:05.780 who were at this conference in person,
00:16:07.620 it was interesting how a few of them
00:16:09.120 actually had their backs up
00:16:10.020 against the wall at first,
00:16:11.500 but then they ended up being
00:16:13.260 a little bit more receptive to it
00:16:14.620 once they heard,
00:16:15.340 oh yeah, there's a framework for this.
00:16:17.220 We're not reinventing the wheel.
00:16:18.500 Provinces have proven that it is possible.
00:16:20.800 You just need the political will to do it.
00:16:23.000 This was my conversation
00:16:24.280 on Alberta independence
00:16:25.300 with the so-called Albertan from Quebec,
00:16:27.980 Maxime Bernier.
00:16:29.660 You've had for quite a while
00:16:31.260 the nickname of the Albertan from Quebec,
00:16:33.280 and it's actually interesting.
00:16:34.960 You're embraced quite robustly here
00:16:37.060 at these Freedom Talk conferences.
00:16:38.480 And I wanted to ask you
00:16:40.240 a little bit about
00:16:41.460 what it is that Alberta and Quebec
00:16:43.320 have in common.
00:16:44.300 Because I know that a lot of Albertans
00:16:46.160 have a lot of resentment towards Quebec
00:16:48.040 because of all the money
00:16:48.920 that Quebec has taken
00:16:50.160 in equalization over the years.
00:16:51.680 But Quebec has also done
00:16:53.440 in a lot of ways
00:16:54.400 what Alberta keeps talking
00:16:55.720 about wanting to do.
00:16:56.980 Yeah.
00:16:57.360 Yeah.
00:16:57.880 What I said yesterday,
00:16:59.360 it's important for us in Canada
00:17:02.340 to know that we politicians in Canada
00:17:05.980 be sure to know our constitution
00:17:07.600 and respect our constitution.
00:17:09.020 And the only way
00:17:09.640 to have changes in this country
00:17:11.100 is to have a radical decentralization,
00:17:13.740 a downsize of the federal government.
00:17:15.820 And actually,
00:17:16.460 it will be good for Alberta.
00:17:18.000 But like in Quebec,
00:17:19.660 Quebecers are asking
00:17:20.740 for more autonomy.
00:17:22.840 And I think Albertans
00:17:23.780 are asking for that.
00:17:25.080 And the discussion
00:17:25.880 that we had yesterday
00:17:27.220 was about, you know,
00:17:28.160 is it good if Alberta
00:17:30.120 is on a police force,
00:17:32.420 on a pension plan,
00:17:34.760 on the immigration selection system?
00:17:38.100 I said, you know,
00:17:38.900 Quebec has that.
00:17:40.800 And Quebec is doing that.
00:17:42.260 So you can,
00:17:43.460 because it's in line
00:17:44.400 with our constitution.
00:17:45.720 So you have to do it.
00:17:47.540 And you don't need to wait
00:17:49.480 for having the approval
00:17:50.880 from the federal government.
00:17:52.340 Do it yourself.
00:17:53.600 And each time,
00:17:54.400 the federal government
00:17:55.120 will come with a national program
00:17:56.980 that usually are unconstitutional.
00:17:59.720 You'll be able to ask
00:18:00.900 to opt out
00:18:01.640 and having the money for that.
00:18:03.340 So my goal was to tell them
00:18:06.060 that what you want
00:18:07.600 is doable
00:18:08.280 at the provincial level.
00:18:10.000 So elect a political party
00:18:13.440 at the provincial level
00:18:14.340 that believe in more autonomy
00:18:15.920 for your province
00:18:17.060 and do it
00:18:18.100 and don't ask any permission.
00:18:20.660 You said something interesting
00:18:21.960 about that
00:18:22.540 that I hadn't really
00:18:23.420 considered before,
00:18:24.800 which was that
00:18:25.300 the Bloc Québécois,
00:18:26.560 which I think
00:18:27.240 for many people,
00:18:28.040 certainly in Canada
00:18:29.040 outside of Quebec,
00:18:29.980 is the face
00:18:30.960 of the Quebec
00:18:31.860 Sovereignist Movement.
00:18:33.460 The Bloc Québécois
00:18:34.180 has done very little
00:18:35.080 to advance Quebec's interest.
00:18:36.820 You say it's all been done
00:18:38.140 at the provincial level.
00:18:39.440 Yeah, absolutely.
00:18:40.160 You're right.
00:18:41.320 The Bloc Québécois
00:18:42.260 did nothing to promote
00:18:43.520 more decentralization.
00:18:45.980 That was always
00:18:47.120 the provincial government,
00:18:48.860 liberal government
00:18:49.720 or PQ government
00:18:50.920 or ADQ government.
00:18:52.520 They all believe,
00:18:53.340 you know,
00:18:53.500 when you're a politician,
00:18:54.360 you want to control.
00:18:55.820 You want to have
00:18:56.720 a lot of power.
00:18:57.840 And that's what
00:18:58.880 Quebecers,
00:18:59.840 politicians
00:19:00.160 at the provincial level
00:19:01.200 want.
00:19:02.000 So the Bloc Québécois
00:19:03.280 did nothing
00:19:04.020 to promote
00:19:04.740 the separatist movement
00:19:06.820 during the 1980s
00:19:09.760 or before
00:19:10.560 or after that.
00:19:11.680 That was the Quebec government
00:19:13.640 who did all that.
00:19:15.040 So that's why
00:19:15.800 I'm saying,
00:19:16.400 you know,
00:19:16.900 if you want to change
00:19:19.120 at the federal level,
00:19:20.220 don't vote
00:19:20.920 for a kind
00:19:21.520 of a Bloc Québécois
00:19:22.780 party for Western Canada
00:19:24.520 because if you want
00:19:25.800 a real change
00:19:26.580 in this country,
00:19:27.460 you'll need
00:19:28.000 to say the same thing
00:19:30.140 all across the country
00:19:31.100 to speak
00:19:32.400 for every Canadian
00:19:33.880 across the country.
00:19:35.140 And so that's why
00:19:35.820 I was saying,
00:19:36.500 you know,
00:19:36.780 don't vote
00:19:37.440 for the Maverick Party.
00:19:38.840 That's not the solution
00:19:39.920 because if you're
00:19:40.800 really independentist
00:19:41.760 and you want
00:19:42.220 or you want
00:19:42.860 more autonomy,
00:19:44.020 vote at the provincial level
00:19:45.300 for the Wild Rose
00:19:46.640 Independence Party.
00:19:48.200 A lot of people
00:19:49.720 could accuse you
00:19:50.920 of flirting with separatism
00:19:52.500 when you talk
00:19:53.020 about these things
00:19:53.740 but in actuality
00:19:55.020 you're proposing
00:19:55.660 what many would argue
00:19:56.900 is the original form
00:19:58.100 of federalism
00:19:58.820 which was very strong
00:20:00.380 provinces combined
00:20:01.480 together in a federation
00:20:02.540 with a federal government
00:20:03.460 that has,
00:20:04.340 relatively speaking,
00:20:05.280 little power.
00:20:07.300 You were in the
00:20:07.920 think tank world,
00:20:08.740 you've been in law,
00:20:09.660 you've seen history.
00:20:11.520 When did government
00:20:12.540 get so big
00:20:13.580 at the federal level?
00:20:14.520 When did that
00:20:15.020 really happen?
00:20:16.240 Well,
00:20:16.480 it happened
00:20:16.920 in the 1970s
00:20:18.520 and when you have
00:20:19.880 the separatist movement
00:20:20.980 in Quebec at that time
00:20:22.260 and also in Alberta
00:20:23.500 at that time.
00:20:24.620 Don't forget
00:20:25.240 Albertan elected
00:20:26.220 the first separatist
00:20:28.780 member of the
00:20:29.900 Legislative Assembly
00:20:30.820 in 1982.
00:20:32.180 So Quebec and Alberta,
00:20:33.860 they have the same idea.
00:20:35.920 They are fighting
00:20:37.000 for their autonomy.
00:20:38.340 So your question
00:20:40.400 about the Constitution
00:20:41.960 and being sure
00:20:43.280 to respect
00:20:44.400 the Constitution,
00:20:45.700 the federal government
00:20:46.580 usually wants
00:20:48.460 to have more visibility
00:20:49.760 and is buying vote
00:20:51.600 with money.
00:20:52.960 And the best way
00:20:53.600 to do that
00:20:54.040 is to create
00:20:54.740 a new program,
00:20:55.680 a new national program.
00:20:57.120 The best example
00:20:57.920 is the scandal
00:21:01.100 that we had in Quebec
00:21:02.060 during the last referendum.
00:21:04.680 Trudeau spent a lot
00:21:05.880 of money in Quebec
00:21:06.600 to try to change
00:21:07.860 the vote over there.
00:21:09.220 But it's always the same.
00:21:11.020 The federal government
00:21:11.920 think that, you know,
00:21:13.180 if they don't show
00:21:14.220 to their population
00:21:15.040 that they're doing
00:21:15.840 something for them,
00:21:17.200 they won't be re-elected.
00:21:18.720 But the Constitution,
00:21:19.860 the father of our country,
00:21:21.340 they didn't see
00:21:21.960 our federation like that.
00:21:23.480 Like you just said,
00:21:24.560 strong, sovereign province
00:21:26.480 with their jurisdiction
00:21:28.400 and their responsibilities,
00:21:29.440 and the federal government
00:21:30.940 must be in charge
00:21:32.000 of money,
00:21:33.240 international affairs,
00:21:34.580 and all inter-provincial affairs also.
00:21:39.140 So in the Constitution,
00:21:40.620 you have usually
00:21:41.340 a smaller government.
00:21:42.560 But because of politics
00:21:43.820 and politicians
00:21:44.820 at the federal level
00:21:45.940 that want to be re-elected,
00:21:48.800 try to create a new program
00:21:50.140 that is against the Constitution.
00:21:52.840 And they're doing that
00:21:53.920 because they have the money also.
00:21:55.860 And that's all the question
00:21:57.060 of the spending power in Ottawa.
00:22:01.440 They think that Canada
00:22:02.820 and the federal government
00:22:03.980 with the surplus
00:22:04.840 that they had during that time,
00:22:06.480 they can spend money
00:22:07.540 in exclusive provincial jurisdiction
00:22:09.700 and with some condition.
00:22:11.680 But that's unconstitutional.
00:22:13.560 That power doesn't exist
00:22:18.540 in the Constitution.
00:22:19.960 The federal government
00:22:20.700 doesn't have the right
00:22:21.800 to spend money
00:22:22.520 in provincial jurisdiction.
00:22:24.400 And that was so important
00:22:25.940 that in the Lackmich Accord
00:22:27.460 a long time ago,
00:22:29.000 Brian Maroney put that.
00:22:30.380 He said in this accord,
00:22:31.840 I want the federal government
00:22:33.080 to have the right
00:22:33.860 to spend money
00:22:34.700 into provincial jurisdiction.
00:22:37.320 And they don't.
00:22:38.300 So you need to change that.
00:22:40.440 You need to be sure.
00:22:41.340 And by the way,
00:22:42.540 with what happened right now
00:22:43.740 with the discussion here
00:22:44.920 in Alberta
00:22:45.840 about the unity,
00:22:47.000 the pipelines and all that,
00:22:48.880 and I think we'll have
00:22:50.020 that discussion.
00:22:50.940 We will have that discussion
00:22:52.200 and we want to put that debate
00:22:54.920 in from the news.
00:22:56.400 And I think that's
00:22:58.280 hugely important
00:22:59.120 because when you draw
00:23:00.000 that contrast
00:23:00.680 of Quebec and Alberta
00:23:02.280 and all the things
00:23:02.920 Alberta could do,
00:23:04.060 pension plan,
00:23:05.000 income tax collection,
00:23:06.800 police force,
00:23:07.640 these things.
00:23:08.460 Pension.
00:23:08.920 Yeah.
00:23:09.280 The difference is that
00:23:10.700 Quebec has done all that
00:23:12.140 while getting subsidized
00:23:13.800 by the rest of the country,
00:23:15.540 including Alberta,
00:23:16.380 whereas Alberta
00:23:17.320 is still doing
00:23:18.140 the subsidizing.
00:23:19.240 And Alberta can do 0.98
00:23:20.420 all of that,
00:23:21.340 but a lot of these discussions
00:23:22.860 all lead back
00:23:23.820 to equalization,
00:23:24.840 which cannot be done
00:23:26.000 unilaterally by a province.
00:23:27.680 Do you see any way
00:23:29.300 that the federal government,
00:23:31.060 liberal or conservative,
00:23:32.160 would take a redrawing,
00:23:34.240 a re-evaluation
00:23:34.840 of equalization seriously?
00:23:36.960 I think they will have
00:23:38.020 to do that today.
00:23:38.960 What is the goal
00:23:39.860 of the equalization formula?
00:23:41.280 It's to be sure
00:23:41.960 that every citizen
00:23:43.700 living in Moncton
00:23:45.060 or in Calgary
00:23:46.320 will have the same level
00:23:48.140 of service
00:23:49.080 from the federal government,
00:23:50.160 from their provincial government.
00:23:51.580 Sorry.
00:23:52.120 So that's why
00:23:52.980 they want to help everybody
00:23:54.640 in having the same kind
00:23:55.860 of living standard.
00:23:58.800 But because of the recession
00:24:00.560 right now
00:24:01.160 and maybe a depression,
00:24:02.380 because Alberta
00:24:03.340 is in a deep recession
00:24:06.440 right now,
00:24:07.440 in two years
00:24:08.660 they won't be able
00:24:09.500 to give money
00:24:10.060 to other provinces.
00:24:11.300 So you have a kind of,
00:24:12.660 it's bad to say,
00:24:14.220 but every province
00:24:15.260 will be at the same
00:24:16.200 poor level.
00:24:17.680 And so you will need
00:24:18.960 to have a discussion
00:24:19.680 about equalization.
00:24:20.820 You will need
00:24:21.340 to have a discussion
00:24:22.060 about how much money
00:24:23.180 you're giving.
00:24:24.040 And I think that will come.
00:24:25.660 And at that time
00:24:26.520 we will be there,
00:24:28.200 we at the PPC,
00:24:29.400 to force that discussion
00:24:30.500 and force provinces,
00:24:32.760 other provinces,
00:24:33.620 to develop
00:24:34.400 their natural resources.
00:24:35.880 You know,
00:24:36.080 in Quebec
00:24:36.420 we receive equalization,
00:24:38.400 but I don't believe
00:24:39.060 Quebec is a poor province.
00:24:40.360 And Quebecers 0.98
00:24:41.040 don't believe that also.
00:24:42.980 They just want
00:24:43.920 to develop
00:24:45.600 their natural resources,
00:24:46.780 but the Quebec government
00:24:47.640 say, no, no,
00:24:48.260 we have a moratorium
00:24:49.300 on shell gas
00:24:50.220 and if they develop
00:24:51.660 their shell gas,
00:24:52.700 they won't receive
00:24:53.720 so much money
00:24:54.500 from the equalization.
00:24:55.880 So there's no incentive
00:24:57.000 for Quebec,
00:24:57.820 New Brunswick
00:24:58.340 or other provinces
00:24:59.140 to develop their economy.
00:25:00.820 I think that discussion
00:25:01.880 will come.
00:25:02.820 And that's why
00:25:03.380 it's important.
00:25:04.180 It's important for us
00:25:05.940 at the BBC
00:25:06.540 and for Canadians
00:25:07.900 that I think
00:25:09.280 they need our voice
00:25:10.520 in Ottawa.
00:25:11.400 I thought that was
00:25:12.240 an interesting interview.
00:25:13.360 And one of the
00:25:14.240 interesting aspects
00:25:15.220 of it was him
00:25:16.560 taking aim
00:25:17.340 at the Maverick Party,
00:25:18.640 which has kind of
00:25:19.400 popped up
00:25:19.960 as being a Western voice
00:25:21.960 in the national
00:25:23.840 political discourse.
00:25:24.920 But Maxime's saying,
00:25:25.740 listen,
00:25:26.000 if you're going to have
00:25:26.580 any progress here,
00:25:27.780 it's going to come
00:25:28.360 from a provincial party
00:25:29.360 at the provincial level.
00:25:30.580 This is a provincial-led
00:25:31.740 discussion,
00:25:32.300 not a federal one.
00:25:33.100 And I found that interesting
00:25:34.180 and certainly
00:25:34.820 there may be a bit
00:25:36.120 of self-interest there
00:25:37.060 because the PPC
00:25:37.820 wants votes.
00:25:38.680 They don't want to lose
00:25:39.400 votes to another party
00:25:40.760 going after people
00:25:41.660 that might have
00:25:42.200 some overlap.
00:25:43.100 But I also think
00:25:44.140 it's worth listening
00:25:44.960 to to some extent
00:25:46.180 because you don't want
00:25:47.320 to further fragment
00:25:48.380 federal politics
00:25:49.560 when there are things
00:25:50.780 that a provincial government
00:25:51.840 can do.
00:25:52.300 But you need to actually
00:25:53.200 lay a strong foundation
00:25:55.360 for that,
00:25:56.040 which means you need
00:25:56.720 to have a province
00:25:57.940 that's prepared to say,
00:25:58.920 listen,
00:25:59.380 we're not going
00:26:00.080 to take it anymore.
00:26:01.020 We're mad as hell.
00:26:01.780 We're not going
00:26:02.120 to take it anymore,
00:26:02.920 which is exactly
00:26:03.900 what a lot of Albertans
00:26:04.920 want from Jason Kenney.
00:26:06.860 Now, Jason Kenney,
00:26:07.780 I interviewed him
00:26:08.640 in December.
00:26:09.360 We spoke a little bit
00:26:10.180 about Western alienation.
00:26:11.680 He's very aware of it.
00:26:13.320 He's aware of the problem,
00:26:14.780 but he is also
00:26:16.100 a committed federalist.
00:26:17.720 And he's been criticized
00:26:19.380 even from within
00:26:20.420 his own party
00:26:21.040 for that to some extent
00:26:22.000 because they want someone
00:26:23.260 who is prepared
00:26:24.000 to pull the exit hatch
00:26:25.420 opening if that's
00:26:26.980 what's necessary.
00:26:27.740 Not as a first resort,
00:26:29.080 but to have it available
00:26:30.240 as a last resort.
00:26:32.040 Jason Kenney led
00:26:33.080 the Fair Deal panel process,
00:26:34.940 which one of his own MLAs,
00:26:36.680 Drew Barnes,
00:26:37.240 who sat on the panel,
00:26:38.260 thought at the end of it
00:26:39.740 didn't really reflect
00:26:40.920 a lot of the conversations
00:26:41.960 that were had
00:26:42.620 and a lot of the suggestions
00:26:43.780 that people in the province
00:26:45.440 put forward.
00:26:46.360 One of the folks
00:26:46.960 who has stepped up
00:26:48.060 to the plate
00:26:48.520 at the provincial level
00:26:49.560 to drive these discussions
00:26:50.740 is Paul Hinman.
00:26:52.400 He is the interim leader
00:26:53.580 of the Wild Rose Independence Party,
00:26:55.960 formerly a leader
00:26:56.800 of the original
00:26:57.600 Wild Rose Alliance
00:26:58.600 before it merged
00:27:00.060 with the PCs
00:27:00.780 to become the new
00:27:01.680 United Conservative Party.
00:27:03.540 But Paul Hinman
00:27:04.220 has been trying
00:27:05.060 to put forward
00:27:05.900 a strong provincial-led
00:27:07.960 and Alberta-led agenda
00:27:09.400 that would drive
00:27:10.640 a lot of these issues
00:27:11.520 that Albertans
00:27:12.180 are concerned about.
00:27:13.240 This is my chat
00:27:14.200 with Paul Hinman.
00:27:15.560 When we spoke last time,
00:27:17.100 it was in the summer
00:27:17.660 at the last Freedom Talk,
00:27:18.860 and we had just come off
00:27:20.720 the Fair Deal panel,
00:27:21.960 which I think gave
00:27:22.760 some people
00:27:23.240 some encouragement,
00:27:24.080 although as we heard
00:27:24.740 from MLA Drew Barnes,
00:27:26.520 not quite far enough
00:27:28.420 to what a lot of people
00:27:29.400 were saying.
00:27:30.460 We fast forward to now,
00:27:31.860 we're closer to this referendum
00:27:33.920 that's been promised.
00:27:35.420 Where do you think
00:27:36.200 the dialogue really is
00:27:38.020 on independence?
00:27:38.780 Where do you think
00:27:39.260 it's going?
00:27:39.740 Do you think it's moving
00:27:40.440 in a good direction
00:27:41.240 or a bad one?
00:27:42.240 Well, I think with COVID
00:27:43.520 and the complications
00:27:44.920 that that's happened,
00:27:46.140 we see the federal interference
00:27:47.860 and the importance
00:27:49.260 of a provincial government
00:27:50.580 that will stand up
00:27:51.400 for the rights
00:27:51.920 and the freedoms
00:27:52.400 of Albertans.
00:27:53.540 But it's quite obvious
00:27:54.780 that Kenny is in,
00:27:56.340 you know,
00:27:57.240 cahoots or part
00:27:58.120 of the federal idea
00:28:00.500 and the global idea
00:28:01.620 right now
00:28:02.140 that this is a terrible,
00:28:04.140 vicious virus
00:28:05.920 that's killing people,
00:28:06.960 which it isn't.
00:28:07.860 And again,
00:28:08.340 so Albertans
00:28:09.020 are very frustrated
00:28:10.460 and hurt,
00:28:11.260 especially in rural Alberta
00:28:12.560 and wanting the government
00:28:14.220 to stand up for them
00:28:15.280 and to end the lockdown.
00:28:17.160 When you're a,
00:28:17.840 I don't want to say
00:28:18.460 a single issue party,
00:28:19.500 but when you're a party
00:28:20.200 that's structured
00:28:20.960 primarily around
00:28:22.140 the idea of getting
00:28:23.140 a better deal
00:28:23.800 for Alberta
00:28:24.800 and you have
00:28:25.580 all of these issues
00:28:26.400 that are coming up
00:28:27.160 like lockdowns,
00:28:28.580 like healthcare spending,
00:28:30.040 like just general
00:28:30.860 day-to-day government,
00:28:32.160 how important is it
00:28:33.840 for you,
00:28:34.240 if at all,
00:28:34.740 to stay focused
00:28:35.500 on that independence movement?
00:28:36.800 Or do you find
00:28:37.660 you have to veer
00:28:38.300 into all of these
00:28:38.880 different areas
00:28:39.480 when now the culture
00:28:40.640 has moved to one
00:28:41.320 where lockdowns
00:28:42.280 need to be the pressing
00:28:42.940 political discussion?
00:28:44.280 I think that
00:28:45.200 what we really need
00:28:45.860 to offer
00:28:46.420 is real answers
00:28:47.540 for Albertans
00:28:48.380 that they need
00:28:49.180 good government.
00:28:50.180 They need a better
00:28:51.240 healthcare system.
00:28:52.380 They need,
00:28:53.040 you know,
00:28:53.580 our education system.
00:28:55.800 Government is failing
00:28:58.080 Albertans
00:28:58.660 in so many aspects
00:28:59.720 right now.
00:29:00.700 And again,
00:29:01.060 too often it's about
00:29:02.280 a right or a left issue,
00:29:03.720 but having a good
00:29:04.480 healthcare system
00:29:05.420 isn't right or left.
00:29:06.660 That's just good governance
00:29:07.900 and it's having
00:29:08.700 a proper system in place,
00:29:10.000 which we don't have.
00:29:11.440 And probably COVID
00:29:12.300 has shone the light
00:29:14.980 on that more than anything
00:29:16.120 because all we hear
00:29:16.940 the Premier say
00:29:17.720 is that we've got
00:29:18.240 to protect
00:29:18.780 our healthcare system.
00:29:20.260 It's not about
00:29:20.660 protecting Albertans.
00:29:22.060 It's not about
00:29:22.580 protecting the education.
00:29:23.920 It's about protecting
00:29:24.880 the healthcare system.
00:29:25.880 Why?
00:29:26.360 Because it's a failing system.
00:29:27.660 It's not robust enough.
00:29:28.760 He could have had
00:29:29.080 a whole year
00:29:29.840 that he could have been
00:29:30.820 building more
00:29:31.380 senior care facilities.
00:29:32.540 He could have been
00:29:33.020 training more nurses.
00:29:34.320 He could have been
00:29:34.920 bringing in equipment,
00:29:36.480 buying field tents,
00:29:37.460 if that's what it is.
00:29:38.360 But the fact of the matter
00:29:39.220 is our healthcare system
00:29:40.560 has been at 100%
00:29:41.600 for 20 years.
00:29:43.780 And so they say
00:29:44.440 we can't afford
00:29:45.040 to have anybody sick
00:29:45.880 because we don't have
00:29:46.520 the capacity.
00:29:47.560 We've had a year
00:29:48.320 and billions of dollars
00:29:49.240 spent and no capacity.
00:29:52.360 It's as pathetic now
00:29:53.860 as it was a year ago.
00:29:55.760 Only the people
00:29:56.540 are worn out
00:29:59.100 and exhausted
00:30:00.040 because of the way
00:30:00.820 they're operating
00:30:01.340 the system.
00:30:01.900 I spoke with
00:30:03.340 Premier Kenney
00:30:04.180 in December
00:30:04.840 and he had said
00:30:05.580 in that interview
00:30:06.140 and in other public fora
00:30:07.800 that he was quite proud
00:30:09.620 of Alberta
00:30:10.080 not going full lockdown
00:30:11.700 like other provinces
00:30:12.600 and having what he
00:30:13.360 characterizes
00:30:14.060 as relatively
00:30:15.300 laxer restrictions
00:30:18.140 compared to other jurisdictions.
00:30:19.960 Do you think
00:30:20.420 there is any credit
00:30:21.460 due there?
00:30:22.680 No.
00:30:23.760 Okay, well that was clear.
00:30:25.080 That was clear,
00:30:25.580 but why not?
00:30:26.120 Well, because, you know,
00:30:27.620 this is the problem
00:30:28.600 and why a government
00:30:29.220 needs to protect individuals.
00:30:30.640 For him to use numbers.
00:30:32.840 If you own a gym
00:30:34.280 and you put your life's work
00:30:35.800 into that
00:30:36.400 and you're told
00:30:37.460 that you can't open that gym,
00:30:39.260 have you done a good job?
00:30:40.500 Has he protected the interest?
00:30:41.860 I mean, he said
00:30:42.780 in December 11th
00:30:44.000 that I was wrong
00:30:44.760 to pick winners and losers.
00:30:46.660 It's not the government's job
00:30:48.320 to say these are essential services
00:30:50.320 and these aren't.
00:30:51.220 Especially when you see
00:30:52.160 what he picked
00:30:53.260 is even more disgusting.
00:30:55.160 And so, no,
00:30:55.880 if you're failing
00:30:56.760 whether it's 2%
00:30:58.440 or 15%
00:30:59.480 because of partisan politics,
00:31:01.640 that's a failure
00:31:02.640 in my books.
00:31:03.420 And there's way too many people
00:31:04.740 that have been
00:31:05.560 personally affected on this
00:31:07.060 and he can look
00:31:08.000 at the numbers
00:31:08.520 and say it's okay,
00:31:09.720 but it's not.
00:31:10.380 If you actually have
00:31:11.700 a just society,
00:31:14.000 we don't pick
00:31:14.920 winners and losers
00:31:15.860 and say,
00:31:16.400 well, we're all
00:31:17.300 in this together,
00:31:18.080 but Andrew,
00:31:18.560 you're the one
00:31:18.960 who has to sacrifice.
00:31:20.980 That's not right.
00:31:22.460 The former Wild Rose Alliance
00:31:24.840 and Wild Rose Party
00:31:25.800 had positioned itself
00:31:26.720 to the right of the PCs.
00:31:28.500 I think the way
00:31:29.520 that the Wild Rose Independence Party
00:31:31.040 now is characterized
00:31:31.980 is to the right of the UCP.
00:31:34.920 I want to ask you
00:31:35.660 if that's a reasonable characterization
00:31:37.540 because I would say
00:31:38.760 that independence itself,
00:31:40.680 just like you said
00:31:41.480 about a good healthcare system,
00:31:42.760 is not a left-right issue.
00:31:44.340 And, you know,
00:31:45.100 there are people
00:31:45.580 on the far left
00:31:46.520 that might be very thrilled
00:31:48.060 to say,
00:31:48.520 yeah, we want to be able
00:31:49.600 to have more socialism
00:31:50.580 in Alberta
00:31:51.140 or something like that.
00:31:52.520 Do you find
00:31:53.100 that there is a coalition
00:31:54.240 that's spanning
00:31:55.340 traditional political identity
00:31:57.320 or is this still
00:31:58.060 a conservative movement?
00:32:00.260 I want to say
00:32:01.860 as it continues to grow
00:32:03.340 and people see
00:32:04.240 government interference
00:32:05.500 and like for me,
00:32:07.380 when you talk about
00:32:08.080 the left or the right,
00:32:09.240 it's more,
00:32:09.900 do you want big government
00:32:10.940 or do you want
00:32:12.360 individual responsibility?
00:32:14.580 And there's always those
00:32:15.660 that are looking
00:32:16.120 at big government,
00:32:17.120 but we can look
00:32:18.320 and even see here in Alberta,
00:32:19.760 you know,
00:32:20.000 centralized healthcare
00:32:20.920 has failed.
00:32:22.080 Centralized education system
00:32:23.620 is not giving our children
00:32:25.080 the education system
00:32:26.140 they could have.
00:32:28.000 And so when you're actually
00:32:29.120 talking and looking
00:32:29.960 about individuals,
00:32:31.260 it's not left or right.
00:32:32.780 This is about good government.
00:32:34.080 This is taking
00:32:34.740 the taxpayer's money
00:32:35.880 and using it
00:32:37.280 in a prudent way
00:32:39.440 that we actually see
00:32:40.600 the cost-benefit analysis
00:32:42.020 and understand
00:32:42.940 that this is going
00:32:43.880 to be a better system.
00:32:45.320 But what we see right now
00:32:46.480 is just a growth
00:32:47.900 of government
00:32:48.740 and public services
00:32:50.500 that seem to be shrinking,
00:32:52.600 but government's growing
00:32:53.680 and management's growing
00:32:54.720 and we're managing
00:32:55.560 the managers.
00:32:56.960 And so, no,
00:32:57.500 I don't really think
00:32:58.280 it's so much
00:32:58.800 as the left
00:32:59.440 as the right
00:32:59.980 as it is,
00:33:00.840 is that, you know,
00:33:01.460 if we use taxpayers' money well,
00:33:03.340 if we have the,
00:33:04.680 how would you say it,
00:33:07.040 the structure of healthcare
00:33:09.120 and education
00:33:10.060 to the benefit
00:33:11.460 of every Albertan,
00:33:13.660 that's where we can go.
00:33:15.680 If the economy is booming,
00:33:17.360 our education,
00:33:18.620 our healthcare,
00:33:19.280 our senior care,
00:33:20.240 all of that
00:33:20.900 will be improving.
00:33:21.900 And so it's about,
00:33:23.540 to me,
00:33:24.000 it's kind of like an airplane.
00:33:25.040 You got your right wing,
00:33:25.900 you got your left wing.
00:33:27.140 The right wing's your economy,
00:33:28.440 the left wing's
00:33:29.000 your social programs
00:33:29.960 and they balance out.
00:33:31.060 As government,
00:33:31.720 we spend what we bring in
00:33:33.380 and we can soar
00:33:34.840 to new heights
00:33:35.520 if we keep it balanced.
00:33:36.940 But when you're running deficits,
00:33:38.100 when you're, you know,
00:33:39.700 doing all of this crazy stuff
00:33:41.320 with the economy
00:33:42.060 and shutting down
00:33:42.840 different areas,
00:33:44.140 it's just a matter of
00:33:45.600 when the right wing's failing,
00:33:47.300 we're going to go
00:33:48.020 into a death spiral.
00:33:49.320 And again,
00:33:50.060 the social services
00:33:50.920 are just eating up everything
00:33:52.940 and undermining our future.
00:33:54.960 Yeah, I mean,
00:33:55.500 and I get that,
00:33:56.280 that you don't want to view it
00:33:57.440 entirely as left versus right,
00:33:59.300 but you know politics
00:34:00.160 and you know political coalitions.
00:34:01.900 So I guess the better way
00:34:03.460 to ask it is,
00:34:04.120 do you see support,
00:34:05.320 and I know you're leading
00:34:06.220 a young party relatively,
00:34:07.440 but do you see support
00:34:08.500 as coming from disenfranchised
00:34:10.240 UCP voters
00:34:11.020 or do you also see people
00:34:12.640 that have historically voted
00:34:13.920 for the NDP,
00:34:15.140 for the Liberal,
00:34:15.920 for the Alberta party,
00:34:17.040 do you see them
00:34:17.720 as joining this?
00:34:19.020 And if not,
00:34:20.280 I guess the extension of that
00:34:21.200 is if not,
00:34:22.100 how will this not just be
00:34:23.500 in effect splitting
00:34:25.440 the UCP vote
00:34:26.360 come the next election?
00:34:27.700 Well, that's an excellent
00:34:28.780 question, Andrew.
00:34:29.640 And I guess I'd have to say
00:34:30.820 is the question is,
00:34:32.000 is splitting the vote,
00:34:33.560 are you standing up
00:34:34.540 for Alberta
00:34:35.140 or are you standing up
00:34:36.460 for Ottawa?
00:34:37.220 And when you look
00:34:37.720 at the NDP
00:34:38.380 and the UCP,
00:34:40.960 they're very much
00:34:41.620 standing with Ottawa
00:34:42.520 and what we're actually doing
00:34:44.060 is standing up
00:34:44.800 for Alberta.
00:34:46.100 And yes,
00:34:47.480 the majority of people
00:34:49.400 that are supporting us
00:34:50.340 are people
00:34:50.780 that have conservative principles
00:34:52.480 and realize
00:34:53.580 that the proper role
00:34:54.540 of government,
00:34:55.520 they want more freedoms,
00:34:56.780 they want their individual
00:34:57.920 rights protected,
00:34:59.160 they want property
00:34:59.920 rights protected.
00:35:01.160 I mean,
00:35:01.460 Jason and Rachel
00:35:02.800 are the same way.
00:35:03.560 They haven't said anything
00:35:04.840 about, you know,
00:35:05.560 the order and council
00:35:06.320 on the gun grab.
00:35:08.180 It's not,
00:35:08.600 people want
00:35:10.080 a province
00:35:11.900 that's actually going
00:35:12.500 to stand up
00:35:13.040 for their property rights,
00:35:14.020 stand up for their freedoms.
00:35:15.220 And when it comes
00:35:15.700 to COVID
00:35:16.160 and the property,
00:35:16.800 all those things,
00:35:17.620 these two previous governments
00:35:19.480 are failing Albertans.
00:35:21.420 But yes,
00:35:22.080 it's conservative principles
00:35:23.300 that we're based on.
00:35:25.100 Maxime Bernier
00:35:25.900 had mentioned something
00:35:26.940 in his remarks
00:35:27.620 this weekend
00:35:28.120 that I found
00:35:28.740 quite interesting,
00:35:29.680 which was that
00:35:30.280 the solution
00:35:31.340 to this issue
00:35:32.000 is not going
00:35:32.460 to come
00:35:32.760 from a federal party
00:35:34.100 with an Alberta focus,
00:35:35.520 but rather a provincial party
00:35:36.980 with an Alberta focus.
00:35:38.440 And he was,
00:35:38.820 of course,
00:35:39.080 taking a very direct swipe
00:35:40.300 at the Maverick Party,
00:35:41.220 which has been established
00:35:42.320 at the federal level.
00:35:43.320 And I was curious
00:35:43.860 for your thoughts
00:35:44.400 because you're going
00:35:45.300 the provincial route.
00:35:46.140 You've been a provincial MLA.
00:35:47.320 You're leading now
00:35:47.960 a provincial party.
00:35:49.640 Why is this
00:35:50.720 something that can't
00:35:52.620 be addressed
00:35:53.160 in the way
00:35:54.180 that the Maverick Party
00:35:55.040 is trying to
00:35:55.620 by being a federal party
00:35:56.960 pushing an Alberta
00:35:58.080 first mandate?
00:35:59.320 Well,
00:35:59.520 the question is,
00:36:00.340 do you just want
00:36:01.000 to be a roadblock?
00:36:02.000 Or do you actually
00:36:02.480 want to see change?
00:36:04.500 And just with
00:36:05.240 the Maverick Party,
00:36:06.820 their limitations are
00:36:07.920 is that they're
00:36:08.600 just going out there
00:36:09.540 to be able
00:36:10.380 to speak up for us.
00:36:11.760 But whether we have
00:36:12.740 zero people
00:36:13.880 speaking up for us
00:36:15.040 or 20 percent,
00:36:16.860 under our Constitution,
00:36:18.100 the way things are,
00:36:18.780 it makes no difference
00:36:19.720 because it's the voting
00:36:20.800 that counts.
00:36:21.860 And whether,
00:36:22.240 you know,
00:36:22.680 Maxine did an excellent job
00:36:23.960 on the Triple E Senate,
00:36:25.140 okay,
00:36:25.960 we're only represented
00:36:27.000 at six percent
00:36:28.080 in the Senate,
00:36:29.100 so it doesn't work for us.
00:36:30.100 If we have
00:36:30.940 equal Senate,
00:36:32.440 we're going to get
00:36:33.200 10 or 11 percent.
00:36:35.060 It's still a minority.
00:36:35.960 Still 90 percent
00:36:36.860 against you.
00:36:37.580 And again,
00:36:38.200 it goes back
00:36:38.720 to a referendum,
00:36:39.700 you know.
00:36:40.080 It doesn't matter
00:36:40.820 whether you get
00:36:41.220 9 percent or 49 percent,
00:36:43.280 you've failed.
00:36:44.460 And so,
00:36:45.360 with Max...
00:36:45.640 The old line for my dad
00:36:46.480 is that close
00:36:46.980 is only good
00:36:47.480 in horseshoes
00:36:48.020 and hand grenades.
00:36:48.720 And 10 percent
00:36:50.280 isn't even close.
00:36:51.180 No.
00:36:51.640 And again,
00:36:52.220 what Maxine is offering,
00:36:53.560 though,
00:36:53.700 is a solution
00:36:54.440 to radically
00:36:55.720 decentralize Canada,
00:36:57.320 which needs to be done.
00:36:58.860 You know,
00:36:58.980 central government
00:36:59.620 doesn't work.
00:37:00.480 And what Ontario
00:37:01.340 or Quebec wants
00:37:02.320 isn't what Alberta
00:37:03.480 wants or needs.
00:37:04.620 And it's the same.
00:37:05.560 And so,
00:37:06.160 no,
00:37:06.700 I totally agree
00:37:07.560 with Maxine
00:37:08.140 and the principles
00:37:08.820 that he is governing
00:37:10.540 on and offering
00:37:12.480 to Canadians.
00:37:13.620 Those will work.
00:37:14.560 It's a solution.
00:37:15.940 The Wild Rose
00:37:16.580 Independence Party,
00:37:17.600 like,
00:37:17.780 we have solutions.
00:37:19.140 You know,
00:37:19.300 we have a major problem
00:37:20.440 with the police force
00:37:21.380 in rural Alberta.
00:37:22.780 RCMP are not able
00:37:23.780 to accomplish
00:37:25.180 what we need.
00:37:26.320 We need to have
00:37:26.800 our own police force
00:37:27.600 with civilian oversight.
00:37:29.260 You know,
00:37:29.460 the pension plan
00:37:30.260 is not working
00:37:31.460 for Albertans.
00:37:33.180 It's costing us money.
00:37:34.540 We could actually
00:37:35.220 enhance the benefits
00:37:36.500 and reduce the premiums
00:37:37.920 if we had a provincial one
00:37:39.200 like Quebec has. 0.71
00:37:40.840 So,
00:37:41.100 all of these things
00:37:41.780 that our current
00:37:42.580 and past governments
00:37:43.740 are failing on,
00:37:44.640 and we're offering,
00:37:45.880 you know,
00:37:46.400 an improved opportunity
00:37:48.120 and quality of life
00:37:49.060 for Albertans
00:37:49.740 with what we're proposing.
00:37:52.180 I think there's a lot
00:37:53.020 of misconceptions
00:37:53.560 about what it is
00:37:55.280 that the Alberta
00:37:55.800 independence movement
00:37:56.520 is about
00:37:56.980 and I guess that would
00:37:57.600 extend to your party.
00:37:58.580 So,
00:37:59.100 I have to ask you,
00:38:00.200 is your party
00:38:01.420 and your view,
00:38:01.980 are you envisioning
00:38:02.660 a separatist party?
00:38:04.320 Well,
00:38:04.680 we're the Wild Rose
00:38:05.320 Independence Party
00:38:06.240 of Alberta
00:38:06.740 and it's about independence
00:38:08.880 and people will argue
00:38:10.220 back and forth,
00:38:10.980 you know,
00:38:11.120 a separatist,
00:38:11.740 independent,
00:38:12.940 we're about independence.
00:38:14.660 It's about putting
00:38:15.140 our house in order,
00:38:16.400 showing Albertans
00:38:17.200 that look,
00:38:18.200 this is what we can do
00:38:19.160 as a government
00:38:19.720 for you
00:38:20.340 and they can see
00:38:21.320 the benefits of it
00:38:22.300 and then Albertans
00:38:23.520 will get to decide
00:38:24.280 in a referendum
00:38:25.040 whether they want
00:38:25.740 to be a sovereign nation
00:38:26.760 or part of Canada.
00:38:28.460 So,
00:38:28.660 your view is
00:38:29.060 that independence
00:38:29.680 and separation
00:38:31.000 are not inherently
00:38:32.000 synonymous?
00:38:33.120 Well,
00:38:33.500 no,
00:38:33.720 like a lot of
00:38:34.180 separatist party
00:38:35.020 and again,
00:38:35.700 this is what you hear
00:38:36.320 with the Fair Deal
00:38:37.000 panel and everything
00:38:37.780 is use it as a leverage,
00:38:38.900 threaten,
00:38:39.740 you know,
00:38:40.120 we're going to
00:38:41.520 threaten this
00:38:42.380 if we don't get that
00:38:43.260 and some people
00:38:43.720 if we don't,
00:38:44.300 like Jason Kenney's
00:38:45.560 thing is,
00:38:45.960 if we don't get pipelines,
00:38:47.320 we're going to have
00:38:47.760 a referendum
00:38:48.220 on equalization
00:38:49.240 and what we're about
00:38:50.840 is actually about
00:38:52.460 independent Alberta
00:38:55.140 that actually has control
00:38:57.120 of our taxation,
00:38:58.200 has control
00:38:58.800 of our environmental act,
00:39:00.280 has control
00:39:00.840 on our immigration,
00:39:01.920 has control,
00:39:03.000 you know,
00:39:03.380 on all aspects
00:39:04.460 of our lives
00:39:05.140 but right now
00:39:05.960 the federal intrusion
00:39:06.980 is just killing Alberta, 0.67
00:39:08.680 the economy,
00:39:09.440 the future,
00:39:10.040 the hope,
00:39:10.620 our taxation
00:39:11.260 and so we need
00:39:12.640 to be independent
00:39:13.920 from Ottawa.
00:39:15.340 Interim leader
00:39:15.980 of the Wild Rose
00:39:16.920 Independence Party,
00:39:17.860 Paul Hinman.
00:39:18.420 Paul,
00:39:18.620 thanks very much
00:39:19.160 for your time.
00:39:19.460 Thank you,
00:39:20.100 Andrew.
00:39:20.980 Now,
00:39:21.520 I must say
00:39:22.160 just on a general note here,
00:39:23.480 I know a lot of
00:39:24.180 Alberta independence folks
00:39:25.500 just love hearing
00:39:27.020 someone from Ontario
00:39:28.160 talk to them
00:39:29.060 about Western alienation
00:39:30.400 and Western independence
00:39:31.280 but as I've always said,
00:39:32.520 I've got more of an
00:39:33.060 Alberta sensibility
00:39:33.860 about me
00:39:34.300 than I do
00:39:34.740 an Ontario sensibility
00:39:36.360 and I always appreciate
00:39:37.260 the hospitality
00:39:37.980 of the people of Alberta
00:39:39.620 whenever I'm out here.
00:39:40.980 I can say that
00:39:41.640 because I'm actually
00:39:42.000 in Alberta right now
00:39:43.100 but I do think
00:39:44.380 that there was a lot
00:39:45.160 in that
00:39:45.780 that was very interesting
00:39:46.840 and certainly relevant
00:39:48.060 to the political discourse
00:39:49.300 moving forward.
00:39:50.360 Now,
00:39:50.560 we know in Canada
00:39:51.180 how difficult it is
00:39:52.100 for upstart parties.
00:39:53.760 Every now and then
00:39:54.540 someone has the ability
00:39:55.600 to ride a wave
00:39:56.400 and achieve a very early success
00:39:58.080 but in a lot of cases,
00:39:59.660 as Maxime has said,
00:40:00.640 you have to build
00:40:01.360 this thing over time.
00:40:02.920 A lot of people feel
00:40:03.820 like they just don't
00:40:05.020 have that time now
00:40:06.140 and we are reaching
00:40:07.360 a boiling point
00:40:08.120 and things like
00:40:08.840 the carbon tax
00:40:09.660 Supreme Court decision
00:40:10.740 will only hasten
00:40:12.480 the arrival
00:40:13.120 of that boiling point
00:40:14.660 which is why
00:40:15.220 I wanted to have
00:40:16.000 these conversations.
00:40:17.220 I know it's a complex issue.
00:40:18.560 I know there's
00:40:19.060 no silver bullet
00:40:19.820 but at the very least,
00:40:21.160 we need to have
00:40:21.700 that discussion
00:40:22.400 which the federal liberals
00:40:23.960 and the mainstream media
00:40:24.820 are completely
00:40:25.640 and utterly
00:40:26.160 uninterested in having.
00:40:27.660 They would be
00:40:28.100 just as happy
00:40:28.760 if you could just
00:40:29.680 like Bugs Bunny,
00:40:31.020 just take a big giant
00:40:31.900 hacksaw
00:40:32.500 and carve the West
00:40:34.060 out of the picture
00:40:34.780 and not have to worry
00:40:35.880 about them
00:40:36.320 but you can't do that
00:40:37.480 and you don't want to see
00:40:38.260 what happens to the
00:40:39.040 Canadian economy
00:40:39.800 if you do.
00:40:41.600 My thanks again
00:40:42.360 to Danny Hozak
00:40:43.580 for having me out
00:40:44.300 and to all of those
00:40:45.180 tuning in
00:40:45.720 as well as
00:40:46.440 Maxime Bernier,
00:40:47.220 Paul Hinman
00:40:47.720 and once again Danny
00:40:49.000 for sitting down
00:40:49.880 with me in Alberta.
00:40:51.240 I am off next week
00:40:52.700 but we'll be back
00:40:53.400 in just a couple of weeks
00:40:54.480 time with more
00:40:55.180 of Canada's
00:40:55.880 most irreverent talk show.
00:40:57.600 This is the Andrew Lawton
00:40:58.440 Show here on True North.
00:40:59.680 Thank you,
00:41:00.180 God bless
00:41:00.580 and good day to you all.
00:41:02.040 Thanks for listening
00:41:02.680 to the Andrew Lawton Show.
00:41:04.200 Support the program
00:41:04.920 by donating to True North
00:41:06.160 at www.tnc.news.