Juno News - Debunking 'AKA Jane Roe'

00:00:01.000 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:00:06.520 Welcome back to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:00:09.180 Well, Jane Roe is probably the most famous name

00:00:12.120 attached to abortion rights in the United States and around the world.

00:00:16.380 And Jane Roe's real name, Norma McCorvey,

00:00:18.940 became probably one of the most well-known pro-life voices in America

00:00:23.660 for the last several decades.

00:00:26.080 And now a documentary is trying to put forward a different view

00:00:29.120 that Norma McCorvey, a.k.a. Jane Roe, 0.99

00:00:31.640 was actually just making a financial calculation.

00:00:34.980 She was just saying pro-life talking points for money

00:00:37.740 and that she wasn't actually that.

00:00:39.500 And this is something that, of course,

00:00:40.720 has been jumped on by a lot of activists

00:00:43.140 to say that the pro-life movement's a fraud,

00:00:45.320 the religious right's a fraud.

00:00:46.500 But it doesn't seem like the documentary is actually

00:00:49.840 something that can necessarily be taken at face value.

00:00:53.340 I want to play a clip from this FX documentary,

00:00:57.060 Deathbed Confession highlight of Norma McCorvey, a.k.a. Jane Roe.

00:01:02.580 Did they use you as a trophy?

00:01:04.640 Of course.

00:01:06.240 I was the big fish.

00:01:10.820 I was the big fish.

00:01:15.580 Do you think they would say that you used them?

00:01:18.480 Well, I think it was a mutual thing.

00:01:21.280 You know, I took their money and they

00:01:22.740 put me out in front of the cameras and told me what to say.

00:01:25.540 And that's what I'd say.

00:01:28.840 Wow.

00:01:31.520 I took their money and they put me out in front of the cameras

00:01:34.740 and told me what to say.

00:01:36.200 That's what I'd say.

00:01:39.940 Wow.

00:01:42.680 Wow.

00:01:45.920 Give me an example of what you'd say.

00:01:47.900 We've gathered here today

00:01:52.480 to pay homage

00:01:55.960 to the children

00:01:57.820 that are being aborted

00:01:59.580 in this abortuary.

00:02:02.880 We're doing this

00:02:04.180 because abortion is wrong. 1.00

00:02:07.740 And I,

00:02:08.480 as the former Jane Roe

00:02:09.820 of Roe vs. Wade,

00:02:12.480 do regret

00:02:13.180 signing the affidavit

00:02:14.900 for the pro-abortion camps.

00:02:19.280 That was probably about it.

00:02:21.060 It was all an act.

00:02:22.540 Yeah.

00:02:23.620 I did it well, too.

00:02:27.840 I am a good actress.

00:02:29.880 Of course, I'm not acting now.

00:02:31.240 So she says there

00:02:32.820 she's a good actress

00:02:33.740 but she's not acting now

00:02:35.400 when she says that

00:02:36.320 this was all essentially

00:02:37.820 just a big sham.

00:02:39.300 Jonathan Van Maron,

00:02:40.220 pro-life activist,

00:02:41.340 author,

00:02:42.120 publisher,

00:02:42.580 and editor of The Bridgehead

00:02:43.760 has said that

00:02:44.460 the documentary

00:02:45.300 is painting a picture

00:02:46.660 that isn't necessarily accurate.

00:02:48.400 People that were

00:02:49.020 very close to Norma McCorvey

00:02:50.780 right up until her last day alive,

00:02:52.760 she passed away in 2017,

00:02:54.760 tell a very different story

00:02:56.140 and their voices are not included

00:02:57.720 in the documentary.

00:02:59.220 He's written two great pieces on this.

00:03:01.000 One in Christianity Today

00:03:02.560 and another in the American Conservative,

00:03:05.220 both tackling different aspects of this.

00:03:07.360 Jonathan, good to have you back on the show.

00:03:08.740 Thanks for coming on today.

00:03:10.600 Yeah, thanks for having me, Andrew.

00:03:11.800 So let's start first off

00:03:13.200 with Norma McCorvey's role 0.78

00:03:14.640 in the pro-life movement

00:03:15.920 because Jane Roe,

00:03:17.520 Roe v. Wade,

00:03:18.520 still years after the decision

00:03:20.340 is really just a cornerstone

00:03:22.660 of the American political discussion.

00:03:24.720 How big a player was she 0.95

00:03:26.740 in the pro-life movement

00:03:27.900 after her conversion to Christianity

00:03:29.720 and after she, so to speak,

00:03:31.920 flipped sides to being pro-life?

00:03:35.380 Well, she was, she was,

00:03:36.940 I think, I think one of the reasons

00:03:38.360 her story is so potent

00:03:39.280 is that she was a symbol.

00:03:40.760 So she came out actually in 1994

00:03:43.360 and wrote a book called I Am Roe.

00:03:46.820 And that book detailed her role

00:03:49.360 in the Roe v. Wade case,

00:03:50.780 which as most of your listeners

00:03:52.360 and viewers will know,

00:03:53.300 got passed down on January 22, 1973.

00:03:55.760 And at this point,

00:03:57.560 when this book got published,

00:03:58.820 she and her then lesbian partner, 0.99

00:04:00.260 Connie Gonzalez,

00:04:01.600 were actually working

00:04:02.680 at an abortion clinic.

00:04:04.600 And Operation Rescue

00:04:05.800 moved next door

00:04:06.620 to the abortion clinic.

00:04:07.640 And the head of Operation Rescue

00:04:08.700 at the time

00:04:09.440 was a man named Flip Benham.

00:04:10.700 He was a pastor,

00:04:11.820 a former alcoholic.

00:04:13.040 And he befriended her

00:04:14.200 while she was on her smoke breaks.

00:04:16.220 And eventually,

00:04:17.740 throughout those conversations,

00:04:19.100 she became pro-life.

00:04:20.200 She came over to his side 0.62

00:04:21.140 of the question.

00:04:22.140 And then the big famous switch

00:04:23.400 was when she was baptized

00:04:24.300 in his backyard pool.

00:04:25.860 And that baptism was broadcast

00:04:27.400 for national television.

00:04:29.240 And only three years

00:04:30.180 after her book I Am Roe,

00:04:31.820 she wrote a second book

00:04:32.760 called One by Love,

00:04:34.000 which was sort of the addendum

00:04:35.180 to her original memoir

00:04:36.300 about how Jane Roe

00:04:37.540 had switched sides.

00:04:39.100 And so she was very well known,

00:04:40.660 I remember as a kid

00:04:41.940 reading her book,

00:04:43.160 and Nora McCorvey

00:04:44.180 was Jane Roe

00:04:45.220 to a lot of pro-life people

00:04:46.600 because Roe v. Wade

00:04:47.660 is still the decision

00:04:49.140 driving almost all

00:04:50.720 of American politics.

00:04:51.680 You could make the case

00:04:52.620 that Roe v. Wade

00:04:53.880 is the reason

00:04:54.460 Donald Trump got elected.

00:04:56.740 When you look at

00:04:57.880 those final few moments

00:05:00.360 that she had alive,

00:05:01.880 one of the conversations

00:05:03.300 she had was with

00:05:04.420 a spiritual mentor

00:05:05.720 and a friend of hers

00:05:06.780 who, in your view,

00:05:08.520 and you're telling

00:05:09.220 in your columns here,

00:05:10.360 said that she was still

00:05:11.340 the same person

00:05:12.020 she always was.

00:05:12.880 There was no flip back

00:05:14.340 to being pro-choice,

00:05:15.380 if you will.

00:05:17.400 Well, so the interesting thing

00:05:18.620 I think about the

00:05:19.720 aka Jane Roe

00:05:20.640 is I was suspicious

00:05:21.560 right away

00:05:22.180 when the trailer

00:05:22.720 got released

00:05:23.420 simply because

00:05:24.600 none of her close friends

00:05:25.940 were interviewed

00:05:26.640 in this documentary.

00:05:28.240 So if you've got,

00:05:29.220 you're a journalist,

00:05:29.900 Andrew, so you know this,

00:05:30.880 when you're really

00:05:31.440 trying to uncover

00:05:32.400 a full story

00:05:33.660 and all of its complexities,

00:05:34.700 you talk to all

00:05:35.500 the different people

00:05:36.220 that somebody knows

00:05:37.160 to try and get

00:05:38.060 a real sense

00:05:38.780 of who they were

00:05:40.060 and what their mindset was.

00:05:41.940 And they call

00:05:42.680 the documentary

00:05:43.340 Her Deathbed Confession

00:05:44.360 sort of this throwaway line

00:05:45.560 she gives with a chuckle. 0.98

00:05:46.940 You saw that

00:05:47.560 in the trailer there.

00:05:48.360 But it actually wasn't

00:05:49.740 Her Deathbed Confession

00:05:50.840 because the people

00:05:51.780 who were there

00:05:52.420 at her actual deathbed

00:05:54.180 tell a different story.

00:05:55.220 She told Janet Morano

00:05:56.640 of Priests for Life

00:05:57.620 hours before she died

00:05:58.780 that she wanted Janet

00:05:59.660 to continue to fight

00:06:00.520 for the overturn

00:06:01.120 of Roe v. Wade.

00:06:02.280 Father Frank Pavone

00:06:03.320 of Priests for Life

00:06:04.100 who was her spiritual advisor

00:06:05.260 spoke to her hours

00:06:06.200 before she passed away.

00:06:07.800 Karen Garnett

00:06:08.460 who was her friend

00:06:09.040 for 22 years

00:06:09.940 spoke with her as well

00:06:11.420 just a couple of hours

00:06:12.800 before she passed away.

00:06:14.480 I think the producer

00:06:15.520 Nick Sweeney

00:06:16.240 who did the interviews

00:06:17.020 with her I think

00:06:18.240 the big coup

00:06:19.100 that he pulled off

00:06:20.360 was getting the entire

00:06:21.840 mainstream media

00:06:22.680 to run with the whole

00:06:24.040 she got paid

00:06:24.800 to change her mind

00:06:25.780 line long before

00:06:27.200 the documentary came out

00:06:28.460 because that narrative

00:06:29.640 is sort of solidified

00:06:30.660 even though when you

00:06:31.720 watch the documentary

00:06:32.760 which I did on Friday night

00:06:34.000 she never at any point

00:06:35.100 actually says that

00:06:35.920 she was paid

00:06:36.760 to change her mind

00:06:37.660 and any idiot 0.96

00:06:39.520 knows that there's

00:06:40.520 a big difference

00:06:41.300 between being paid

00:06:42.460 to change your mind

00:06:43.320 and being paid

00:06:44.080 to advocate

00:06:44.640 for a specific position

00:06:45.820 which she absolutely was

00:06:47.480 you've gotten paid

00:06:48.100 to do speaking

00:06:48.720 I've gotten paid

00:06:49.780 to do speaking

00:06:50.400 it's called an honorarium

00:06:51.780 and surely Nick Sweeney

00:06:53.060 knew this

00:06:53.540 he just wanted the line

00:06:54.600 to be Jane Roe

00:06:55.780 got paid to become pro-life

00:06:57.380 therefore the pro-life

00:06:58.440 movement's a sham.

00:06:59.380 Is there not still

00:07:00.440 some truth to the idea

00:07:01.560 that even if she was

00:07:02.920 getting paid

00:07:03.520 for a speaking fee

00:07:04.600 which is a pretty

00:07:05.380 common practice

00:07:06.220 in the pro-life community

00:07:07.460 and in other political

00:07:08.360 movements

00:07:08.800 that being pro-life

00:07:10.800 still afforded

00:07:12.020 her a lifestyle

00:07:12.720 and that there still

00:07:13.760 may have been

00:07:14.260 a financial motivation

00:07:15.880 to jumping into it

00:07:17.120 as fervently

00:07:18.100 as she did?

00:07:20.300 Well so that's

00:07:20.740 sort of the interesting

00:07:21.320 thing

00:07:21.680 not really

00:07:22.700 if you look at

00:07:23.920 what their evidence

00:07:24.640 was

00:07:25.080 when they said

00:07:25.820 that he had found

00:07:27.160 all of these

00:07:27.760 documents that proven

00:07:29.280 she'd gotten paid off

00:07:30.320 the number that was

00:07:31.320 quoted in the Daily Beast

00:07:32.460 and the LA Times

00:07:33.180 was roughly

00:07:34.040 $430,000

00:07:35.560 over

00:07:36.280 21-22 years

00:07:38.460 By the way

00:07:39.680 over that period

00:07:40.440 of time

00:07:40.800 is not a huge

00:07:41.500 sum of money

00:07:42.040 Well I was

00:07:43.860 so that's roughly

00:07:45.240 $20,000 a year

00:07:46.680 I know pro-life

00:07:48.800 speakers who make 0.93

00:07:49.420 that much

00:07:49.880 in a single speech

00:07:51.880 so this is a very

00:07:53.340 small amount of money

00:07:54.380 to anybody familiar

00:07:55.380 with the landscape

00:07:56.020 of the movement

00:07:56.540 we're talking about

00:07:57.340 and the other thing

00:07:58.260 that gets left out

00:07:59.040 is this money

00:08:00.180 was paid to

00:08:01.220 her ministry

00:08:02.480 Roe No More Ministries

00:08:03.760 they were donations

00:08:04.920 to a ministry

00:08:06.500 that she ran

00:08:07.500 and those donations

00:08:08.520 were actually made

00:08:09.260 to that ministry

00:08:09.920 so that she could

00:08:10.960 stay in Texas

00:08:11.980 because she didn't

00:08:12.680 like traveling

00:08:13.380 she didn't like

00:08:14.100 speaking very much

00:08:15.020 and so

00:08:16.220 the whole idea

00:08:17.720 that she was paid

00:08:18.480 I was relieved

00:08:19.680 when I saw

00:08:20.080 the documentary

00:08:20.780 I was like

00:08:21.280 does this guy

00:08:22.680 have evidence

00:08:23.340 that people were

00:08:24.420 bribing her

00:08:25.060 to hold her position

00:08:25.960 you just never know

00:08:27.200 what sort of bombshell

00:08:28.280 is going to come out

00:08:29.120 all of her friends

00:08:30.940 I got a few more

00:08:32.200 interviews coming out

00:08:33.220 this week

00:08:34.120 said she was

00:08:34.840 very volatile

00:08:35.700 so who knows

00:08:36.480 what she would have said

00:08:37.040 she got paid

00:08:37.560 to show up

00:08:38.020 in this documentary

00:08:39.140 ironically

00:08:40.060 while he was

00:08:40.660 accusing the pro-life

00:08:41.860 movement of paying

00:08:42.520 her off 0.99

00:08:42.880 he paid her

00:08:43.480 to show up

00:08:43.980 in this film

00:08:44.480 aka Jane Roe

00:08:46.520 but the documents

00:08:47.820 he shows

00:08:48.160 in the documentary

00:08:49.120 are 990 forms

00:08:50.320 for a pro-life

00:08:51.040 ministry

00:08:51.480 I work for a pro-life

00:08:52.640 organization

00:08:53.080 it's not a very

00:08:54.260 big amount of money

00:08:55.040 and if we're going

00:08:56.140 to start calling

00:08:56.560 donations to a pro-life

00:08:57.780 non-profit

00:08:58.340 bribing

00:08:58.860 then we're all

00:08:59.560 anybody who works

00:09:00.460 for a pro-life

00:09:00.880 organization

00:09:01.400 is being bribed

00:09:02.460 to hold that position

00:09:03.280 so all of that

00:09:05.100 was just a total

00:09:06.200 nothing burger

00:09:06.780 she wasn't paid 0.79

00:09:07.620 very much

00:09:08.260 she wasn't paid 0.79

00:09:09.180 very often

00:09:09.800 and what she got

00:09:11.260 paid was very low

00:09:13.220 compared to what

00:09:14.580 other pro-life

00:09:15.080 speakers get

00:09:15.760 the final point

00:09:16.900 I'll make on that

00:09:17.500 is can you imagine

00:09:18.320 what documentary

00:09:19.040 they would have made

00:09:19.860 if they said

00:09:20.760 the pro-life movement

00:09:21.840 exploited Norma

00:09:22.680 McCorvey

00:09:23.060 because they had her

00:09:24.380 give all these speeches

00:09:25.160 and they didn't even

00:09:25.720 give her an honorarium

00:09:26.580 right

00:09:27.060 this was a

00:09:27.700 he was going to

00:09:29.140 have a narrative

00:09:29.700 that she got exploited

00:09:30.760 regardless of whether

00:09:32.500 she got paid

00:09:33.400 or if she didn't

00:09:33.920 get paid

00:09:34.340 that whole

00:09:34.880 side of things

00:09:36.060 is kind of a joke

00:09:36.760 once you see the film

00:09:37.560 so I know it's a bit

00:09:38.740 of an unrelated point here

00:09:40.060 but I think that one

00:09:41.000 of the bigger problems

00:09:42.020 that I have

00:09:42.500 is that a lot of people

00:09:43.180 tend to take documentaries

00:09:44.360 as being gospel

00:09:46.200 and complete

00:09:47.020 you know

00:09:47.440 non-fiction

00:09:48.240 without any bias

00:09:49.280 without any

00:09:49.820 ulterior motives

00:09:51.080 and we know that's not

00:09:52.020 the case

00:09:52.480 like Tiger King

00:09:53.900 tells us

00:09:54.440 you know

00:09:54.640 people just put

00:09:55.320 characters in

00:09:56.100 and form a narrative

00:09:56.940 that's going to make

00:09:57.600 for a good story

00:09:58.420 and in this case

00:09:59.460 there's clearly

00:10:00.180 an agenda there

00:10:01.220 but at the same time

00:10:02.520 whatever the bias

00:10:03.220 of the documentarian

00:10:04.240 is

00:10:04.520 the bias of the producer

00:10:05.600 the bias of the mainstream

00:10:06.700 media

00:10:07.060 she still said

00:10:08.300 those words

00:10:09.140 that you know

00:10:09.680 it was all an act

00:10:10.940 that she's a good actress

00:10:11.940 that she's not acting now

00:10:13.160 so how do you reconcile

00:10:14.420 what these friends of hers

00:10:15.680 that you've talked to

00:10:16.360 have said

00:10:16.760 with her saying

00:10:18.400 pretty clearly

00:10:19.480 in her own words

00:10:20.600 whatever led to that point

00:10:21.880 that yeah

00:10:22.640 she was acting

00:10:23.460 but she's not now

00:10:24.340 well it's so funny

00:10:25.760 well it's so funny

00:10:25.780 that you put it that way

00:10:26.980 when you said

00:10:27.440 in her own words

00:10:28.260 when you watch

00:10:28.740 the documentary

00:10:29.360 they're having a discussion

00:10:30.280 about how she got paid

00:10:31.140 to say stuff

00:10:31.700 for the camera

00:10:32.160 so she had this like

00:10:33.100 stump speech

00:10:34.060 like many speakers do

00:10:35.240 and of course

00:10:36.120 hers was

00:10:36.720 I was Roe

00:10:37.420 I am Roe no more

00:10:38.340 that was sort of

00:10:38.860 her stump speech 0.94

00:10:39.560 and she was talking

00:10:40.660 about how

00:10:41.660 they would put her

00:10:42.620 out in front of the cameras

00:10:43.300 and she'd get paid

00:10:44.200 to speak

00:10:44.700 and then the documentary

00:10:46.600 filmmaker

00:10:47.120 actually asks her

00:10:48.120 would it be fair

00:10:49.020 to say it was all an act

00:10:50.140 and she says yes

00:10:52.080 in reference

00:10:52.800 to her speaking

00:10:53.620 in front of the cameras

00:10:54.480 I know

00:10:54.940 I know pro-life speakers

00:10:56.120 who have been getting

00:10:56.720 the same speech

00:10:57.260 for 20 years

00:10:57.940 right

00:10:58.460 they're not speaking

00:10:59.040 with the same passion

00:10:59.960 infused into their voice

00:11:01.760 it's all Dale Carnegie

00:11:02.940 at that point

00:11:03.900 and it's interesting

00:11:05.200 that that was

00:11:06.880 in her own words

00:11:07.660 those words

00:11:08.360 were literally

00:11:08.720 put into her mouth 0.73

00:11:09.420 is it fair to say

00:11:10.160 it's all an act

00:11:10.820 and then she said yes

00:11:11.540 I'm a great actress

00:11:13.480 but I'm not acting now

00:11:15.040 and then kind of laughs

00:11:16.160 there's a bunch

00:11:17.180 of instances

00:11:17.880 in which these quotes

00:11:18.860 are sort of pulled

00:11:19.440 out of context

00:11:19.960 so she wasn't saying

00:11:21.220 I faked my conversion

00:11:22.160 I've been acting

00:11:22.740 all this time

00:11:23.320 she said I was acting

00:11:24.680 when I was in front

00:11:25.560 of the cameras

00:11:26.260 which many people are

00:11:28.020 but there's a quote

00:11:28.780 towards the end

00:11:29.140 of the film as well

00:11:29.880 where they play a clip

00:11:31.600 from a former

00:11:33.040 pro-life activist

00:11:33.780 turned pro-choicer

00:11:34.720 Rob Shank

00:11:35.920 where he says

00:11:37.020 you know

00:11:37.200 I think that we

00:11:37.780 kind of used her

00:11:38.620 Rob Shank's former friends

00:11:40.080 say he speaks

00:11:40.620 only for himself

00:11:41.460 and then they put

00:11:42.800 a quote from Norma

00:11:43.840 right in the middle

00:11:44.340 where she says

00:11:44.820 these guys are all assholes 0.98

00:11:46.480 and they think

00:11:47.580 you know

00:11:47.760 God sent them

00:11:48.380 to save the world

00:11:49.200 but you're not actually

00:11:50.620 told who she's referring to

00:11:52.460 you're not actually

00:11:53.540 told what the question is

00:11:54.640 so you don't even know

00:11:55.480 which people

00:11:56.100 she thinks are assholes

00:11:57.540 because yeah

00:11:58.160 there were people

00:11:59.100 in the pro-life movement

00:11:59.840 that she absolutely

00:12:00.560 thought were terrible

00:12:01.560 there were people

00:12:02.080 that she really

00:12:02.620 couldn't stand

00:12:03.320 and then there were

00:12:04.240 the people that she

00:12:05.100 wanted to speak with

00:12:06.280 hours before she passed

00:12:07.480 so all of the major quotes

00:12:09.360 are kind of presented

00:12:10.360 almost totally

00:12:11.180 without context

00:12:12.240 at the end of the documentary

00:12:13.560 for example

00:12:14.080 she's shown

00:12:14.620 hating Donald Trump

00:12:16.000 and saying

00:12:17.160 she hopes Hillary wins 1.00

00:12:18.300 I talked to several

00:12:19.420 of her friends

00:12:19.900 and none of them

00:12:20.380 are surprised

00:12:20.960 they said

00:12:21.280 look a lot of pro-lifers

00:12:22.440 are ambivalent

00:12:23.020 about Trump

00:12:23.540 and a lot of people

00:12:24.960 said he's the kind

00:12:25.800 of guy

00:12:26.240 who gets women abortions 0.89

00:12:27.620 I wrote that

00:12:29.440 I wrote that

00:12:30.660 in 2016

00:12:31.260 prior to the election

00:12:32.320 even the quote

00:12:34.320 where they say

00:12:35.020 where she says

00:12:36.160 and pardon my language

00:12:37.100 you can bleep me

00:12:37.700 if you need to

00:12:38.220 but just quote directly

00:12:39.480 that if a woman 1.00

00:12:39.980 has an abortion

00:12:40.600 you know

00:12:40.820 it's no skin off my ass 0.68

00:12:41.840 you're not given

00:12:43.040 any context

00:12:43.780 you don't know

00:12:44.980 what the question

00:12:45.600 was asked

00:12:46.280 and one of the reasons

00:12:47.220 that makes me suspicious

00:12:48.420 as to what the question was

00:12:49.880 because she could just

00:12:50.880 be describing

00:12:51.600 what is simply true

00:12:53.060 like look

00:12:53.460 I've got two kids

00:12:54.300 why do I care

00:12:55.320 about this issue

00:12:55.980 it's not going to be

00:12:57.200 my kids who are aborted

00:12:58.060 it's other people's

00:12:58.820 why am I still passionate

00:12:59.800 about this issue

00:13:00.480 right

00:13:00.740 is the fact

00:13:01.680 that he didn't give you

00:13:02.400 the questions

00:13:02.900 and you didn't give

00:13:03.440 the context

00:13:04.040 if there was more

00:13:04.720 there there

00:13:05.360 it would have shown up

00:13:06.600 in the film

00:13:07.120 but I really do think

00:13:08.640 his biggest coup

00:13:09.400 was getting three

00:13:10.580 or four quotes

00:13:11.480 to define the narrative

00:13:13.040 of the whole film

00:13:13.760 when in a two hour film

00:13:15.120 there's maybe

00:13:15.720 15 minutes of new material

00:13:17.520 most of it's just

00:13:18.300 old interviews

00:13:19.080 and old footage

00:13:19.860 yeah that's actually

00:13:22.980 a really interesting point

00:13:24.420 and the one thing

00:13:25.220 I would also add to that

00:13:26.740 is that

00:13:27.320 it's telling

00:13:28.520 that sometimes

00:13:29.240 you see the question

00:13:30.240 and other times

00:13:30.960 you don't

00:13:31.560 and there's always

00:13:32.380 I think a question

00:13:33.440 that a viewer

00:13:33.940 has to inject into that

00:13:35.520 which is

00:13:35.840 why are you not showing us

00:13:37.240 in this particular case

00:13:38.160 why are you showing us

00:13:39.580 a short response

00:13:40.560 whereas at this other point

00:13:41.640 you showed us

00:13:42.140 a longer response

00:13:43.020 and that's where

00:13:44.100 that grain of salt

00:13:45.280 or you know

00:13:45.720 10 gallon barrels

00:13:46.620 of salt

00:13:47.180 need to be deployed here

00:13:49.300 I guess what I would ask

00:13:50.900 is what her motivation

00:13:52.960 would have been

00:13:53.660 for participating in this

00:13:54.920 because you've said

00:13:55.560 that she wasn't a fan

00:13:56.520 of the traveling

00:13:58.080 and the speaking

00:13:58.780 and what not

00:13:59.700 so why if she was

00:14:00.740 in her dying years

00:14:01.980 would she go down

00:14:03.220 this road

00:14:03.680 regardless of whether

00:14:04.740 or not she knew

00:14:05.440 the agenda

00:14:06.060 of the film

00:14:06.740 or the documentary

00:14:07.520 well it's also

00:14:08.820 there's a couple

00:14:09.460 of answers to that question

00:14:10.360 and I'll give you

00:14:10.960 a little bit of a scoop

00:14:11.600 here in a minute

00:14:12.480 so one

00:14:14.320 she did all sorts

00:14:15.880 of media requests

00:14:16.880 and she usually 0.96

00:14:17.360 asked for money

00:14:17.980 in exchange

00:14:18.460 especially towards

00:14:19.120 the end of her life

00:14:19.940 despite the claims

00:14:20.920 of massive bribes

00:14:21.680 she didn't have

00:14:22.180 a whole lot of money

00:14:22.900 and she was taken in

00:14:24.620 for over a year

00:14:26.240 by a kindly

00:14:27.160 pro-life lady in Dallas

00:14:28.360 when she just needed

00:14:28.980 a place to stay

00:14:29.840 she texted back

00:14:31.360 and forth

00:14:31.680 with Father Frank Bavone

00:14:32.780 who released

00:14:33.920 those text messages

00:14:34.720 when Nick Sweeney

00:14:35.740 showed up

00:14:36.240 and she was doing

00:14:36.620 the documentary

00:14:37.160 where she said

00:14:37.760 I'm doing some

00:14:38.400 interviews for a documentary

00:14:39.300 hoping to make

00:14:39.900 a few bucks

00:14:40.460 she actually said

00:14:41.460 that she was doing

00:14:42.120 it for money

00:14:42.660 what hasn't been

00:14:44.300 reported on yet

00:14:45.140 and I got this

00:14:45.920 from her friend

00:14:46.540 Karen Garnett

00:14:47.220 who was quoted

00:14:47.760 in both of the articles

00:14:48.580 that I wrote

00:14:48.900 that you referred to

00:14:49.640 she mentioned

00:14:50.820 that by the time

00:14:51.320 Nick Sweeney

00:14:51.880 showed up on the scene

00:14:52.980 she'd been in

00:14:53.740 out of the hospital

00:14:54.380 already 11 times

00:14:55.480 she was in

00:14:56.300 extremely poor health

00:14:57.500 and the doctor

00:14:58.360 told her her lungs

00:14:59.180 were black and hardened 0.84

00:15:00.220 that she could not

00:15:01.680 smoke cigarettes

00:15:02.380 or it could kill her

00:15:03.340 she was already 0.80

00:15:03.920 on oxygen at this point

00:15:04.920 and what Karen Garnett

00:15:06.640 told me in an

00:15:07.180 on the record interview

00:15:07.980 is that Nick Sweeney

00:15:10.500 would take her out

00:15:11.100 and give her cigarettes 1.00

00:15:11.820 she was dying

00:15:14.100 for a smoke

00:15:14.720 she would be messaging

00:15:15.740 her friends

00:15:16.460 like can you at least

00:15:17.060 get me an electronic

00:15:17.680 cigarette

00:15:18.040 she was a lifelong

00:15:18.700 heavy smoker

00:15:19.300 from a very young age

00:15:20.140 and this producer

00:15:21.300 was giving her cigarettes

00:15:22.260 even though the doctor

00:15:22.940 said it could kill her

00:15:23.980 so she said she wanted

00:15:27.120 to make some bucks

00:15:27.960 so I don't know

00:15:28.580 what the amount

00:15:29.040 that exchanged hands was

00:15:30.340 but that's one motivation

00:15:31.760 too she says almost

00:15:32.960 in the first 50 minutes

00:15:34.120 of the documentary

00:15:34.760 she said I really like

00:15:36.260 attention

00:15:36.660 I'm good at getting it

00:15:37.760 right so that's

00:15:38.720 that was another motivation

00:15:40.040 for wanting to do

00:15:40.680 the documentary

00:15:41.360 and he obviously

00:15:43.680 had an agenda

00:15:44.280 the first thing I did

00:15:45.000 when I found out

00:15:45.440 about this film

00:15:45.820 coming out

00:15:46.240 is I googled

00:15:46.700 to find out

00:15:47.360 what his previous

00:15:48.180 film projects

00:15:48.840 had been

00:15:49.220 one of them

00:15:50.000 was transgender

00:15:50.540 kid camp

00:15:51.320 the other one

00:15:51.740 was born in the

00:15:52.280 wrong body

00:15:52.900 another one

00:15:54.020 was on sex dolls

00:15:55.400 and then there was

00:15:56.800 a third one

00:15:57.320 I believe also

00:15:57.940 on an LGBT 0.95

00:15:59.380 related issue

00:16:00.580 so he was obviously

00:16:01.880 coming to this

00:16:02.540 with a motivation

00:16:04.040 right off the bat

00:16:04.760 and also it's just

00:16:06.300 again important

00:16:06.860 to recognize the context

00:16:07.940 of when he showed up

00:16:09.020 now just as an addendum

00:16:11.140 she does have a biographer

00:16:12.680 Josh Prager

00:16:13.640 who's been working

00:16:14.640 on a book on her

00:16:15.660 for ages

00:16:16.120 and did say that

00:16:17.020 she was very conflicted

00:16:18.340 about some things

00:16:19.360 towards the end

00:16:20.060 of her life

00:16:20.420 she did feel that

00:16:21.000 there were some

00:16:21.480 pro-lifers who

00:16:22.140 exploited her

00:16:22.880 which two of her

00:16:23.680 friends told me as well

00:16:24.720 and I quote them

00:16:25.260 in my Christianity Today

00:16:26.260 article

00:16:26.600 but he said that

00:16:28.040 she did say some

00:16:28.620 interesting things

00:16:29.320 that she struggled with

00:16:30.320 about the abortion issue

00:16:31.860 that will come out

00:16:32.420 in his book

00:16:32.740 in 2021

00:16:33.580 but if there is

00:16:35.920 a bombshell there

00:16:36.860 if there were some

00:16:37.640 things she struggled with

00:16:38.940 Nick Sweeney

00:16:39.820 didn't get it

00:16:40.440 and it didn't show up

00:16:41.180 in the documentary

00:16:41.900 so if there was

00:16:43.180 if there is a real scoop

00:16:44.300 about something

00:16:44.760 that she thought

00:16:45.280 towards the end of her life

00:16:46.040 that she shared with nobody

00:16:46.940 Josh Prager

00:16:48.100 got that story

00:16:48.880 and we'll be learning

00:16:49.720 about that next year

00:16:50.900 Nick Sweeney

00:16:52.240 didn't get it

00:16:52.860 the documentary

00:16:53.360 was really a well edited

00:16:54.280 nothing burger

00:16:54.800 let me ask you

00:16:57.840 about her reliability

00:16:59.780 as a spokesperson

00:17:00.900 because this was actually

00:17:02.040 a point that came out

00:17:03.080 in the documentary

00:17:03.820 about how she wasn't

00:17:05.220 the perfect spokesperson

00:17:06.280 for the pro-choice movement

00:17:07.740 she didn't have

00:17:08.540 all of the checkboxes

00:17:10.140 that they would have

00:17:10.620 loved to have had

00:17:11.300 and I'd say the same

00:17:12.240 is probably true

00:17:13.120 on the pro-life side

00:17:14.120 I mean had she not

00:17:15.460 been Jane Rowe

00:17:16.640 I don't think

00:17:17.700 there would have been

00:17:18.440 much of a role

00:17:19.420 that she could have played

00:17:20.240 now admittedly

00:17:21.020 that's a big if

00:17:21.880 but if she hadn't been

00:17:23.240 I mean that was her role

00:17:24.420 is that chapter of her life

00:17:25.740 where she was Jane Rowe

00:17:26.640 and it doesn't sound like

00:17:28.700 she didn't go through

00:17:29.980 and you acknowledge this

00:17:30.900 her life without

00:17:31.700 a lot of struggles

00:17:32.740 right up until the end

00:17:33.840 yeah well so just to give you

00:17:35.780 a little bit of context

00:17:36.660 right by the age of 22

00:17:38.060 she had been sexually abused 0.73

00:17:39.960 by a relative

00:17:40.620 she'd been beaten

00:17:41.660 by her husband

00:17:42.320 and then divorced

00:17:42.800 she married him

00:17:43.280 at the age of 16

00:17:44.040 she'd been pregnant

00:17:44.620 on a wedlock three times

00:17:45.860 she was also 0.66

00:17:46.700 she'd also done a five year

00:17:47.820 stint in reform school

00:17:48.880 in Texas

00:17:49.380 where she had also

00:17:50.460 been sexually abused

00:17:51.420 by age 22

00:17:52.640 she was a deeply hurting

00:17:54.120 and a deeply broken person

00:17:56.460 in many ways

00:17:57.320 people like that

00:17:58.260 generally don't make

00:17:59.060 reliable spokespeople

00:18:00.220 and in fact the reason

00:18:01.140 the pro-choice movement

00:18:01.860 didn't want her

00:18:02.320 as a spokesperson

00:18:02.900 this is where you can't

00:18:04.120 really blame them

00:18:04.740 is that one of her

00:18:05.780 one of her major interviews

00:18:07.040 that got arranged

00:18:07.680 she admitted that she lied

00:18:09.080 when she said the pregnancy

00:18:09.980 that formed the basis

00:18:11.220 of the Roe case

00:18:11.940 was through rape

00:18:12.600 and they felt that confirmed

00:18:14.400 that she was very volatile

00:18:15.420 that it made them look like

00:18:17.160 like they'd been lying

00:18:18.540 all along

00:18:19.040 when of course they claimed

00:18:20.300 that they hadn't been lying

00:18:21.280 that that's the story

00:18:21.900 Norma McCorvey

00:18:22.460 had told them

00:18:22.980 it's interesting

00:18:23.880 you bring up her reliability

00:18:25.040 because three separate people

00:18:28.080 without having communicated

00:18:29.040 with each other

00:18:29.680 that I interviewed

00:18:30.440 back to back

00:18:31.640 all said

00:18:32.520 the biggest reason

00:18:34.340 you know that Rob Schenck

00:18:35.880 in this film

00:18:37.560 he was the former

00:18:38.340 pro-life fellow

00:18:38.980 was full of it

00:18:39.960 and that the narrative

00:18:40.480 was wrong

00:18:40.960 is that you couldn't

00:18:41.640 coach Norma McCorvey

00:18:42.500 to say anything

00:18:43.180 they actually said it

00:18:44.560 while laughing

00:18:45.140 they said you know what

00:18:45.880 if we could have coached her

00:18:47.180 to say certain things

00:18:48.180 and to stick to her

00:18:48.820 stump speech

00:18:49.280 we would have

00:18:49.780 but when you invited Norma McCorvey

00:18:51.560 to show up

00:18:52.000 and you handed her a mic

00:18:52.740 she was going to say

00:18:53.360 what Norma felt like saying

00:18:54.380 when she went on TV

00:18:55.500 she was going to say

00:18:56.160 exactly what she felt like saying

00:18:57.460 and to give you a prime example

00:18:59.040 one of the first times

00:19:00.220 she went on TV

00:19:01.340 after her pro-life conversion

00:19:03.000 she hadn't really thought

00:19:04.440 all the details through yet

00:19:05.580 they asked her

00:19:06.080 if she was okay

00:19:06.800 with abortion

00:19:07.340 in the case of rape

00:19:08.180 and she said she was

00:19:09.520 she didn't even fully understand

00:19:10.940 the pro-life position

00:19:12.140 at that point

00:19:12.760 she was just expressing

00:19:14.120 what she had to say

00:19:15.040 so if she was this sort of

00:19:16.380 groomed and coached speaker

00:19:18.000 she would not have been going on TV

00:19:19.920 and saying

00:19:20.360 actually I support abortion 0.95

00:19:21.680 in these particular circumstances

00:19:23.900 so her friends were pretty up front

00:19:27.160 and basically said like

00:19:27.980 look if we could have coached her 0.93

00:19:29.080 we would have

00:19:29.600 but nobody could coach Norma

00:19:30.940 Norma was Norma

00:19:32.000 and you took what you could get

00:19:33.160 she liked to have drinks

00:19:34.100 she smoked like a chimney

00:19:35.380 and everybody said

00:19:36.960 that her sense of humor

00:19:37.860 was just uproarious

00:19:39.420 but also extremely irreverent

00:19:41.400 she really did not fit the mold

00:19:43.220 of you know

00:19:43.960 a Christian inspirational speaker

00:19:45.340 you know the type

00:19:46.140 that I'm talking about right

00:19:47.180 they're sort of squeaky clean

00:19:48.440 you have no pictures on Facebook

00:19:49.660 of them having a beer

00:19:50.540 that was not Norma McCorvey

00:19:52.180 she was who she was

00:19:53.540 take it or leave it

00:19:54.340 and the pro-life movement left it

00:19:56.160 and the pro-life movement

00:19:57.340 loved her for who she was

00:19:58.400 you know I'm assuming

00:20:00.580 the timing of this

00:20:01.620 is to coincide

00:20:03.100 with the upcoming election

00:20:04.280 cast conservatives

00:20:05.160 and the religious right

00:20:06.600 and the pro-life movement

00:20:07.540 in a bad light

00:20:08.540 but the fact is

00:20:09.640 we're talking about

00:20:10.340 three and a half years

00:20:11.320 after this woman

00:20:12.580 passed away

00:20:13.680 no ability for her 0.92

00:20:15.260 to respond to it

00:20:16.240 and that's almost by design

00:20:17.920 you can tell

00:20:18.560 well it's 100% by design

00:20:20.920 like look

00:20:21.300 it's no it's no accident

00:20:23.020 FX Hulu

00:20:23.960 is the one that released

00:20:24.640 this documentary

00:20:25.260 some of your viewers

00:20:26.740 might know this

00:20:27.300 but they also recently

00:20:28.200 released an ongoing

00:20:29.060 mini-series called

00:20:29.760 Mrs. America

00:20:30.460 on Phyllis Schlafly

00:20:31.500 who was also a pro-life activist

00:20:33.300 who took on

00:20:33.940 the Equal Rights Amendment

00:20:34.920 and won

00:20:35.420 and the things they say

00:20:37.360 about her

00:20:37.700 are just horrifying

00:20:39.140 and things that they could not

00:20:40.900 say if she was still alive

00:20:42.140 like Phyllis would have 1.00

00:20:43.860 sued them into the ground

00:20:44.680 if they said this

00:20:45.180 while she was alive

00:20:45.760 but now she's been gone

00:20:46.560 for two years

00:20:47.120 and now they can sort of

00:20:48.360 say whatever they want

00:20:49.340 I think that one of the

00:20:51.160 political ramifications

00:20:51.980 that's very interesting here

00:20:53.060 is that in the mid-2000s

00:20:56.160 Norma McCorvey

00:20:57.560 actually sued

00:20:58.700 to have Roe v. Wade

00:20:59.620 overturned based on

00:21:00.460 new evidence

00:21:00.940 that abortion hurts women 0.99

00:21:01.940 evidence in her deposition

00:21:04.600 in her Supreme Court 0.54

00:21:06.140 filing is actually

00:21:07.780 being used right now

00:21:08.580 in another pro-life case

00:21:09.820 that's winding its way

00:21:10.660 up to the Supreme Court

00:21:11.600 so there is some suspicion

00:21:12.980 that this documentary

00:21:13.800 if you can undermine

00:21:15.040 Norma McCorvey's sincerity

00:21:16.280 then you can undermine

00:21:17.460 the evidence

00:21:17.960 that is still currently

00:21:19.220 in play

00:21:19.980 in a very important

00:21:21.260 pro-life case

00:21:22.040 the same way that

00:21:23.200 FXHulu released a series

00:21:24.660 trying to claim

00:21:25.820 all sorts of horrifying

00:21:26.540 things about Phyllis Schlafly

00:21:27.680 like she was a racist

00:21:28.820 etc. etc.

00:21:30.120 just as the Equal Rights Amendment

00:21:31.820 is on the Biden platform

00:21:33.720 the issues that

00:21:35.640 Jane Roe

00:21:36.560 Norma McCorvey

00:21:37.320 Phyllis Schlafly

00:21:38.060 the issues that they were

00:21:39.420 involved in

00:21:40.040 their lives revolved around

00:21:41.240 are very much in play

00:21:42.620 in some cases

00:21:43.520 back in play

00:21:44.420 and yeah

00:21:45.180 I think that these

00:21:46.000 documentaries are getting

00:21:46.940 this much traction

00:21:47.840 because they're still

00:21:48.460 considered to be

00:21:49.480 politically relevant

00:21:50.540 in the moment

00:21:51.240 it's not just a trip

00:21:52.220 through you know

00:21:52.980 the 1990s pro-life movement

00:21:54.400 and all the craziness

00:21:55.180 of Operation Rescue

00:21:56.060 no it's

00:21:56.940 it's about the here

00:21:58.400 and now

00:21:58.840 in a big way

00:21:59.560 Jonathan Van Maren

00:22:02.000 author of The Culture War

00:22:03.340 publisher of The Bridgehead

00:22:04.660 always a pleasure sir

00:22:05.460 thanks for coming on

00:22:06.240 thanks a lot Andrew

00:22:07.440 thanks for listening to

00:22:08.820 The Andrew Lawton Show

00:22:09.820 support the program

00:22:10.880 by donating to

00:22:11.680 True North

00:22:12.120 at www.tnc.news

00:22:15.300 the

00:22:27.940 the

00:22:28.580 the

00:22:29.040 other

00:22:29.400 the

00:22:33.200 the

Juno News - May 28, 2020

Debunking 'AKA Jane Roe'

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