Juno News - May 28, 2020


Debunking 'AKA Jane Roe'


Episode Stats

Length

22 minutes

Words per Minute

199.48576

Word Count

4,500

Sentence Count

84

Misogynist Sentences

25

Hate Speech Sentences

9


Summary


Transcript

00:00:01.000 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:00:06.520 Welcome back to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:00:09.180 Well, Jane Roe is probably the most famous name
00:00:12.120 attached to abortion rights in the United States and around the world.
00:00:16.380 And Jane Roe's real name, Norma McCorvey,
00:00:18.940 became probably one of the most well-known pro-life voices in America
00:00:23.660 for the last several decades.
00:00:26.080 And now a documentary is trying to put forward a different view
00:00:29.120 that Norma McCorvey, a.k.a. Jane Roe,
00:00:31.640 was actually just making a financial calculation.
00:00:34.980 She was just saying pro-life talking points for money
00:00:37.740 and that she wasn't actually that.
00:00:39.500 And this is something that, of course,
00:00:40.720 has been jumped on by a lot of activists
00:00:43.140 to say that the pro-life movement's a fraud,
00:00:45.320 the religious right's a fraud.
00:00:46.500 But it doesn't seem like the documentary is actually
00:00:49.840 something that can necessarily be taken at face value.
00:00:53.340 I want to play a clip from this FX documentary,
00:00:57.060 Deathbed Confession highlight of Norma McCorvey, a.k.a. Jane Roe.
00:01:02.580 Did they use you as a trophy?
00:01:04.640 Of course.
00:01:06.240 I was the big fish.
00:01:10.820 I was the big fish.
00:01:15.580 Do you think they would say that you used them?
00:01:18.480 Well, I think it was a mutual thing.
00:01:21.280 You know, I took their money and they
00:01:22.740 put me out in front of the cameras and told me what to say.
00:01:25.540 And that's what I'd say.
00:01:28.840 Wow.
00:01:31.520 I took their money and they put me out in front of the cameras
00:01:34.740 and told me what to say.
00:01:36.200 That's what I'd say.
00:01:39.940 Wow.
00:01:42.680 Wow.
00:01:45.920 Give me an example of what you'd say.
00:01:47.900 We've gathered here today
00:01:52.480 to pay homage
00:01:55.960 to the children
00:01:57.820 that are being aborted
00:01:59.580 in this abortuary.
00:02:02.880 We're doing this
00:02:04.180 because abortion is wrong.
00:02:07.740 And I,
00:02:08.480 as the former Jane Roe
00:02:09.820 of Roe vs. Wade,
00:02:12.480 do regret
00:02:13.180 signing the affidavit
00:02:14.900 for the pro-abortion camps.
00:02:19.280 That was probably about it.
00:02:21.060 It was all an act.
00:02:22.540 Yeah.
00:02:23.620 I did it well, too.
00:02:27.840 I am a good actress.
00:02:29.880 Of course, I'm not acting now.
00:02:31.240 So she says there
00:02:32.820 she's a good actress
00:02:33.740 but she's not acting now
00:02:35.400 when she says that
00:02:36.320 this was all essentially
00:02:37.820 just a big sham.
00:02:39.300 Jonathan Van Maron,
00:02:40.220 pro-life activist,
00:02:41.340 author,
00:02:42.120 publisher,
00:02:42.580 and editor of The Bridgehead
00:02:43.760 has said that
00:02:44.460 the documentary
00:02:45.300 is painting a picture
00:02:46.660 that isn't necessarily accurate.
00:02:48.400 People that were
00:02:49.020 very close to Norma McCorvey
00:02:50.780 right up until her last day alive,
00:02:52.760 she passed away in 2017,
00:02:54.760 tell a very different story
00:02:56.140 and their voices are not included
00:02:57.720 in the documentary.
00:02:59.220 He's written two great pieces on this.
00:03:01.000 One in Christianity Today
00:03:02.560 and another in the American Conservative,
00:03:05.220 both tackling different aspects of this.
00:03:07.360 Jonathan, good to have you back on the show.
00:03:08.740 Thanks for coming on today.
00:03:10.600 Yeah, thanks for having me, Andrew.
00:03:11.800 So let's start first off
00:03:13.200 with Norma McCorvey's role
00:03:14.640 in the pro-life movement
00:03:15.920 because Jane Roe,
00:03:17.520 Roe v. Wade,
00:03:18.520 still years after the decision
00:03:20.340 is really just a cornerstone
00:03:22.660 of the American political discussion.
00:03:24.720 How big a player was she
00:03:26.740 in the pro-life movement
00:03:27.900 after her conversion to Christianity
00:03:29.720 and after she, so to speak,
00:03:31.920 flipped sides to being pro-life?
00:03:35.380 Well, she was, she was,
00:03:36.940 I think, I think one of the reasons
00:03:38.360 her story is so potent
00:03:39.280 is that she was a symbol.
00:03:40.760 So she came out actually in 1994
00:03:43.360 and wrote a book called I Am Roe.
00:03:46.820 And that book detailed her role
00:03:49.360 in the Roe v. Wade case,
00:03:50.780 which as most of your listeners
00:03:52.360 and viewers will know,
00:03:53.300 got passed down on January 22, 1973.
00:03:55.760 And at this point,
00:03:57.560 when this book got published,
00:03:58.820 she and her then lesbian partner,
00:04:00.260 Connie Gonzalez,
00:04:01.600 were actually working
00:04:02.680 at an abortion clinic.
00:04:04.600 And Operation Rescue
00:04:05.800 moved next door
00:04:06.620 to the abortion clinic.
00:04:07.640 And the head of Operation Rescue
00:04:08.700 at the time
00:04:09.440 was a man named Flip Benham.
00:04:10.700 He was a pastor,
00:04:11.820 a former alcoholic.
00:04:13.040 And he befriended her
00:04:14.200 while she was on her smoke breaks.
00:04:16.220 And eventually,
00:04:17.740 throughout those conversations,
00:04:19.100 she became pro-life.
00:04:20.200 She came over to his side
00:04:21.140 of the question.
00:04:22.140 And then the big famous switch
00:04:23.400 was when she was baptized
00:04:24.300 in his backyard pool.
00:04:25.860 And that baptism was broadcast
00:04:27.400 for national television.
00:04:29.240 And only three years
00:04:30.180 after her book I Am Roe,
00:04:31.820 she wrote a second book
00:04:32.760 called One by Love,
00:04:34.000 which was sort of the addendum
00:04:35.180 to her original memoir
00:04:36.300 about how Jane Roe
00:04:37.540 had switched sides.
00:04:39.100 And so she was very well known,
00:04:40.660 I remember as a kid
00:04:41.940 reading her book,
00:04:43.160 and Nora McCorvey
00:04:44.180 was Jane Roe
00:04:45.220 to a lot of pro-life people
00:04:46.600 because Roe v. Wade
00:04:47.660 is still the decision
00:04:49.140 driving almost all
00:04:50.720 of American politics.
00:04:51.680 You could make the case
00:04:52.620 that Roe v. Wade
00:04:53.880 is the reason
00:04:54.460 Donald Trump got elected.
00:04:56.740 When you look at
00:04:57.880 those final few moments
00:05:00.360 that she had alive,
00:05:01.880 one of the conversations
00:05:03.300 she had was with
00:05:04.420 a spiritual mentor
00:05:05.720 and a friend of hers
00:05:06.780 who, in your view,
00:05:08.520 and you're telling
00:05:09.220 in your columns here,
00:05:10.360 said that she was still
00:05:11.340 the same person
00:05:12.020 she always was.
00:05:12.880 There was no flip back
00:05:14.340 to being pro-choice,
00:05:15.380 if you will.
00:05:17.400 Well, so the interesting thing
00:05:18.620 I think about the
00:05:19.720 aka Jane Roe
00:05:20.640 is I was suspicious
00:05:21.560 right away
00:05:22.180 when the trailer
00:05:22.720 got released
00:05:23.420 simply because
00:05:24.600 none of her close friends
00:05:25.940 were interviewed
00:05:26.640 in this documentary.
00:05:28.240 So if you've got,
00:05:29.220 you're a journalist,
00:05:29.900 Andrew, so you know this,
00:05:30.880 when you're really
00:05:31.440 trying to uncover
00:05:32.400 a full story
00:05:33.660 and all of its complexities,
00:05:34.700 you talk to all
00:05:35.500 the different people
00:05:36.220 that somebody knows
00:05:37.160 to try and get
00:05:38.060 a real sense
00:05:38.780 of who they were
00:05:40.060 and what their mindset was.
00:05:41.940 And they call
00:05:42.680 the documentary
00:05:43.340 Her Deathbed Confession
00:05:44.360 sort of this throwaway line
00:05:45.560 she gives with a chuckle.
00:05:46.940 You saw that
00:05:47.560 in the trailer there.
00:05:48.360 But it actually wasn't
00:05:49.740 Her Deathbed Confession
00:05:50.840 because the people
00:05:51.780 who were there
00:05:52.420 at her actual deathbed
00:05:54.180 tell a different story.
00:05:55.220 She told Janet Morano
00:05:56.640 of Priests for Life
00:05:57.620 hours before she died
00:05:58.780 that she wanted Janet
00:05:59.660 to continue to fight
00:06:00.520 for the overturn
00:06:01.120 of Roe v. Wade.
00:06:02.280 Father Frank Pavone
00:06:03.320 of Priests for Life
00:06:04.100 who was her spiritual advisor
00:06:05.260 spoke to her hours
00:06:06.200 before she passed away.
00:06:07.800 Karen Garnett
00:06:08.460 who was her friend
00:06:09.040 for 22 years
00:06:09.940 spoke with her as well
00:06:11.420 just a couple of hours
00:06:12.800 before she passed away.
00:06:14.480 I think the producer
00:06:15.520 Nick Sweeney
00:06:16.240 who did the interviews
00:06:17.020 with her I think
00:06:18.240 the big coup
00:06:19.100 that he pulled off
00:06:20.360 was getting the entire
00:06:21.840 mainstream media
00:06:22.680 to run with the whole
00:06:24.040 she got paid
00:06:24.800 to change her mind
00:06:25.780 line long before
00:06:27.200 the documentary came out
00:06:28.460 because that narrative
00:06:29.640 is sort of solidified
00:06:30.660 even though when you
00:06:31.720 watch the documentary
00:06:32.760 which I did on Friday night
00:06:34.000 she never at any point
00:06:35.100 actually says that
00:06:35.920 she was paid
00:06:36.760 to change her mind
00:06:37.660 and any idiot
00:06:39.520 knows that there's
00:06:40.520 a big difference
00:06:41.300 between being paid
00:06:42.460 to change your mind
00:06:43.320 and being paid
00:06:44.080 to advocate
00:06:44.640 for a specific position
00:06:45.820 which she absolutely was
00:06:47.480 you've gotten paid
00:06:48.100 to do speaking
00:06:48.720 I've gotten paid
00:06:49.780 to do speaking
00:06:50.400 it's called an honorarium
00:06:51.780 and surely Nick Sweeney
00:06:53.060 knew this
00:06:53.540 he just wanted the line
00:06:54.600 to be Jane Roe
00:06:55.780 got paid to become pro-life
00:06:57.380 therefore the pro-life
00:06:58.440 movement's a sham.
00:06:59.380 Is there not still
00:07:00.440 some truth to the idea
00:07:01.560 that even if she was
00:07:02.920 getting paid
00:07:03.520 for a speaking fee
00:07:04.600 which is a pretty
00:07:05.380 common practice
00:07:06.220 in the pro-life community
00:07:07.460 and in other political
00:07:08.360 movements
00:07:08.800 that being pro-life
00:07:10.800 still afforded
00:07:12.020 her a lifestyle
00:07:12.720 and that there still
00:07:13.760 may have been
00:07:14.260 a financial motivation
00:07:15.880 to jumping into it
00:07:17.120 as fervently
00:07:18.100 as she did?
00:07:20.300 Well so that's
00:07:20.740 sort of the interesting
00:07:21.320 thing
00:07:21.680 not really
00:07:22.700 if you look at
00:07:23.920 what their evidence
00:07:24.640 was
00:07:25.080 when they said
00:07:25.820 that he had found
00:07:27.160 all of these
00:07:27.760 documents that proven
00:07:29.280 she'd gotten paid off
00:07:30.320 the number that was
00:07:31.320 quoted in the Daily Beast
00:07:32.460 and the LA Times
00:07:33.180 was roughly
00:07:34.040 $430,000
00:07:35.560 over
00:07:36.280 21-22 years
00:07:38.460 By the way
00:07:39.680 over that period
00:07:40.440 of time
00:07:40.800 is not a huge
00:07:41.500 sum of money
00:07:42.040 Well I was
00:07:43.860 so that's roughly
00:07:45.240 $20,000 a year
00:07:46.680 I know pro-life
00:07:48.800 speakers who make
00:07:49.420 that much
00:07:49.880 in a single speech
00:07:51.880 so this is a very
00:07:53.340 small amount of money
00:07:54.380 to anybody familiar
00:07:55.380 with the landscape
00:07:56.020 of the movement
00:07:56.540 we're talking about
00:07:57.340 and the other thing
00:07:58.260 that gets left out
00:07:59.040 is this money
00:08:00.180 was paid to
00:08:01.220 her ministry
00:08:02.480 Roe No More Ministries
00:08:03.760 they were donations
00:08:04.920 to a ministry
00:08:06.500 that she ran
00:08:07.500 and those donations
00:08:08.520 were actually made
00:08:09.260 to that ministry
00:08:09.920 so that she could
00:08:10.960 stay in Texas
00:08:11.980 because she didn't
00:08:12.680 like traveling
00:08:13.380 she didn't like
00:08:14.100 speaking very much
00:08:15.020 and so
00:08:16.220 the whole idea
00:08:17.720 that she was paid
00:08:18.480 I was relieved
00:08:19.680 when I saw
00:08:20.080 the documentary
00:08:20.780 I was like
00:08:21.280 does this guy
00:08:22.680 have evidence
00:08:23.340 that people were
00:08:24.420 bribing her
00:08:25.060 to hold her position
00:08:25.960 you just never know
00:08:27.200 what sort of bombshell
00:08:28.280 is going to come out
00:08:29.120 all of her friends
00:08:30.940 I got a few more
00:08:32.200 interviews coming out
00:08:33.220 this week
00:08:34.120 said she was
00:08:34.840 very volatile
00:08:35.700 so who knows
00:08:36.480 what she would have said
00:08:37.040 she got paid
00:08:37.560 to show up
00:08:38.020 in this documentary
00:08:39.140 ironically
00:08:40.060 while he was
00:08:40.660 accusing the pro-life
00:08:41.860 movement of paying
00:08:42.520 her off
00:08:42.880 he paid her
00:08:43.480 to show up
00:08:43.980 in this film
00:08:44.480 aka Jane Roe
00:08:46.520 but the documents
00:08:47.820 he shows
00:08:48.160 in the documentary
00:08:49.120 are 990 forms
00:08:50.320 for a pro-life
00:08:51.040 ministry
00:08:51.480 I work for a pro-life
00:08:52.640 organization
00:08:53.080 it's not a very
00:08:54.260 big amount of money
00:08:55.040 and if we're going
00:08:56.140 to start calling
00:08:56.560 donations to a pro-life
00:08:57.780 non-profit
00:08:58.340 bribing
00:08:58.860 then we're all
00:08:59.560 anybody who works
00:09:00.460 for a pro-life
00:09:00.880 organization
00:09:01.400 is being bribed
00:09:02.460 to hold that position
00:09:03.280 so all of that
00:09:05.100 was just a total
00:09:06.200 nothing burger
00:09:06.780 she wasn't paid
00:09:07.620 very much
00:09:08.260 she wasn't paid
00:09:09.180 very often
00:09:09.800 and what she got
00:09:11.260 paid was very low
00:09:13.220 compared to what
00:09:14.580 other pro-life
00:09:15.080 speakers get
00:09:15.760 the final point
00:09:16.900 I'll make on that
00:09:17.500 is can you imagine
00:09:18.320 what documentary
00:09:19.040 they would have made
00:09:19.860 if they said
00:09:20.760 the pro-life movement
00:09:21.840 exploited Norma
00:09:22.680 McCorvey
00:09:23.060 because they had her
00:09:24.380 give all these speeches
00:09:25.160 and they didn't even
00:09:25.720 give her an honorarium
00:09:26.580 right
00:09:27.060 this was a
00:09:27.700 he was going to
00:09:29.140 have a narrative
00:09:29.700 that she got exploited
00:09:30.760 regardless of whether
00:09:32.500 she got paid
00:09:33.400 or if she didn't
00:09:33.920 get paid
00:09:34.340 that whole
00:09:34.880 side of things
00:09:36.060 is kind of a joke
00:09:36.760 once you see the film
00:09:37.560 so I know it's a bit
00:09:38.740 of an unrelated point here
00:09:40.060 but I think that one
00:09:41.000 of the bigger problems
00:09:42.020 that I have
00:09:42.500 is that a lot of people
00:09:43.180 tend to take documentaries
00:09:44.360 as being gospel
00:09:46.200 and complete
00:09:47.020 you know
00:09:47.440 non-fiction
00:09:48.240 without any bias
00:09:49.280 without any
00:09:49.820 ulterior motives
00:09:51.080 and we know that's not
00:09:52.020 the case
00:09:52.480 like Tiger King
00:09:53.900 tells us
00:09:54.440 you know
00:09:54.640 people just put
00:09:55.320 characters in
00:09:56.100 and form a narrative
00:09:56.940 that's going to make
00:09:57.600 for a good story
00:09:58.420 and in this case
00:09:59.460 there's clearly
00:10:00.180 an agenda there
00:10:01.220 but at the same time
00:10:02.520 whatever the bias
00:10:03.220 of the documentarian
00:10:04.240 is
00:10:04.520 the bias of the producer
00:10:05.600 the bias of the mainstream
00:10:06.700 media
00:10:07.060 she still said
00:10:08.300 those words
00:10:09.140 that you know
00:10:09.680 it was all an act
00:10:10.940 that she's a good actress
00:10:11.940 that she's not acting now
00:10:13.160 so how do you reconcile
00:10:14.420 what these friends of hers
00:10:15.680 that you've talked to
00:10:16.360 have said
00:10:16.760 with her saying
00:10:18.400 pretty clearly
00:10:19.480 in her own words
00:10:20.600 whatever led to that point
00:10:21.880 that yeah
00:10:22.640 she was acting
00:10:23.460 but she's not now
00:10:24.340 well it's so funny
00:10:25.760 well it's so funny
00:10:25.780 that you put it that way
00:10:26.980 when you said
00:10:27.440 in her own words
00:10:28.260 when you watch
00:10:28.740 the documentary
00:10:29.360 they're having a discussion
00:10:30.280 about how she got paid
00:10:31.140 to say stuff
00:10:31.700 for the camera
00:10:32.160 so she had this like
00:10:33.100 stump speech
00:10:34.060 like many speakers do
00:10:35.240 and of course
00:10:36.120 hers was
00:10:36.720 I was Roe
00:10:37.420 I am Roe no more
00:10:38.340 that was sort of
00:10:38.860 her stump speech
00:10:39.560 and she was talking
00:10:40.660 about how
00:10:41.660 they would put her
00:10:42.620 out in front of the cameras
00:10:43.300 and she'd get paid
00:10:44.200 to speak
00:10:44.700 and then the documentary
00:10:46.600 filmmaker
00:10:47.120 actually asks her
00:10:48.120 would it be fair
00:10:49.020 to say it was all an act
00:10:50.140 and she says yes
00:10:52.080 in reference
00:10:52.800 to her speaking
00:10:53.620 in front of the cameras
00:10:54.480 I know
00:10:54.940 I know pro-life speakers
00:10:56.120 who have been getting
00:10:56.720 the same speech
00:10:57.260 for 20 years
00:10:57.940 right
00:10:58.460 they're not speaking
00:10:59.040 with the same passion
00:10:59.960 infused into their voice
00:11:01.760 it's all Dale Carnegie
00:11:02.940 at that point
00:11:03.900 and it's interesting
00:11:05.200 that that was
00:11:06.880 in her own words
00:11:07.660 those words
00:11:08.360 were literally
00:11:08.720 put into her mouth
00:11:09.420 is it fair to say
00:11:10.160 it's all an act
00:11:10.820 and then she said yes
00:11:11.540 I'm a great actress
00:11:13.480 but I'm not acting now
00:11:15.040 and then kind of laughs
00:11:16.160 there's a bunch
00:11:17.180 of instances
00:11:17.880 in which these quotes
00:11:18.860 are sort of pulled
00:11:19.440 out of context
00:11:19.960 so she wasn't saying
00:11:21.220 I faked my conversion
00:11:22.160 I've been acting
00:11:22.740 all this time
00:11:23.320 she said I was acting
00:11:24.680 when I was in front
00:11:25.560 of the cameras
00:11:26.260 which many people are
00:11:28.020 but there's a quote
00:11:28.780 towards the end
00:11:29.140 of the film as well
00:11:29.880 where they play a clip
00:11:31.600 from a former
00:11:33.040 pro-life activist
00:11:33.780 turned pro-choicer
00:11:34.720 Rob Shank
00:11:35.920 where he says
00:11:37.020 you know
00:11:37.200 I think that we
00:11:37.780 kind of used her
00:11:38.620 Rob Shank's former friends
00:11:40.080 say he speaks
00:11:40.620 only for himself
00:11:41.460 and then they put
00:11:42.800 a quote from Norma
00:11:43.840 right in the middle
00:11:44.340 where she says
00:11:44.820 these guys are all assholes
00:11:46.480 and they think
00:11:47.580 you know
00:11:47.760 God sent them
00:11:48.380 to save the world
00:11:49.200 but you're not actually
00:11:50.620 told who she's referring to
00:11:52.460 you're not actually
00:11:53.540 told what the question is
00:11:54.640 so you don't even know
00:11:55.480 which people
00:11:56.100 she thinks are assholes
00:11:57.540 because yeah
00:11:58.160 there were people
00:11:59.100 in the pro-life movement
00:11:59.840 that she absolutely
00:12:00.560 thought were terrible
00:12:01.560 there were people
00:12:02.080 that she really
00:12:02.620 couldn't stand
00:12:03.320 and then there were
00:12:04.240 the people that she
00:12:05.100 wanted to speak with
00:12:06.280 hours before she passed
00:12:07.480 so all of the major quotes
00:12:09.360 are kind of presented
00:12:10.360 almost totally
00:12:11.180 without context
00:12:12.240 at the end of the documentary
00:12:13.560 for example
00:12:14.080 she's shown
00:12:14.620 hating Donald Trump
00:12:16.000 and saying
00:12:17.160 she hopes Hillary wins
00:12:18.300 I talked to several
00:12:19.420 of her friends
00:12:19.900 and none of them
00:12:20.380 are surprised
00:12:20.960 they said
00:12:21.280 look a lot of pro-lifers
00:12:22.440 are ambivalent
00:12:23.020 about Trump
00:12:23.540 and a lot of people
00:12:24.960 said he's the kind
00:12:25.800 of guy
00:12:26.240 who gets women abortions
00:12:27.620 I wrote that
00:12:29.440 I wrote that
00:12:30.660 in 2016
00:12:31.260 prior to the election
00:12:32.320 even the quote
00:12:34.320 where they say
00:12:35.020 where she says
00:12:36.160 and pardon my language
00:12:37.100 you can bleep me
00:12:37.700 if you need to
00:12:38.220 but just quote directly
00:12:39.480 that if a woman
00:12:39.980 has an abortion
00:12:40.600 you know
00:12:40.820 it's no skin off my ass
00:12:41.840 you're not given
00:12:43.040 any context
00:12:43.780 you don't know
00:12:44.980 what the question
00:12:45.600 was asked
00:12:46.280 and one of the reasons
00:12:47.220 that makes me suspicious
00:12:48.420 as to what the question was
00:12:49.880 because she could just
00:12:50.880 be describing
00:12:51.600 what is simply true
00:12:53.060 like look
00:12:53.460 I've got two kids
00:12:54.300 why do I care
00:12:55.320 about this issue
00:12:55.980 it's not going to be
00:12:57.200 my kids who are aborted
00:12:58.060 it's other people's
00:12:58.820 why am I still passionate
00:12:59.800 about this issue
00:13:00.480 right
00:13:00.740 is the fact
00:13:01.680 that he didn't give you
00:13:02.400 the questions
00:13:02.900 and you didn't give
00:13:03.440 the context
00:13:04.040 if there was more
00:13:04.720 there there
00:13:05.360 it would have shown up
00:13:06.600 in the film
00:13:07.120 but I really do think
00:13:08.640 his biggest coup
00:13:09.400 was getting three
00:13:10.580 or four quotes
00:13:11.480 to define the narrative
00:13:13.040 of the whole film
00:13:13.760 when in a two hour film
00:13:15.120 there's maybe
00:13:15.720 15 minutes of new material
00:13:17.520 most of it's just
00:13:18.300 old interviews
00:13:19.080 and old footage
00:13:19.860 yeah that's actually
00:13:22.980 a really interesting point
00:13:24.420 and the one thing
00:13:25.220 I would also add to that
00:13:26.740 is that
00:13:27.320 it's telling
00:13:28.520 that sometimes
00:13:29.240 you see the question
00:13:30.240 and other times
00:13:30.960 you don't
00:13:31.560 and there's always
00:13:32.380 I think a question
00:13:33.440 that a viewer
00:13:33.940 has to inject into that
00:13:35.520 which is
00:13:35.840 why are you not showing us
00:13:37.240 in this particular case
00:13:38.160 why are you showing us
00:13:39.580 a short response
00:13:40.560 whereas at this other point
00:13:41.640 you showed us
00:13:42.140 a longer response
00:13:43.020 and that's where
00:13:44.100 that grain of salt
00:13:45.280 or you know
00:13:45.720 10 gallon barrels
00:13:46.620 of salt
00:13:47.180 need to be deployed here
00:13:49.300 I guess what I would ask
00:13:50.900 is what her motivation
00:13:52.960 would have been
00:13:53.660 for participating in this
00:13:54.920 because you've said
00:13:55.560 that she wasn't a fan
00:13:56.520 of the traveling
00:13:58.080 and the speaking
00:13:58.780 and what not
00:13:59.700 so why if she was
00:14:00.740 in her dying years
00:14:01.980 would she go down
00:14:03.220 this road
00:14:03.680 regardless of whether
00:14:04.740 or not she knew
00:14:05.440 the agenda
00:14:06.060 of the film
00:14:06.740 or the documentary
00:14:07.520 well it's also
00:14:08.820 there's a couple
00:14:09.460 of answers to that question
00:14:10.360 and I'll give you
00:14:10.960 a little bit of a scoop
00:14:11.600 here in a minute
00:14:12.480 so one
00:14:14.320 she did all sorts
00:14:15.880 of media requests
00:14:16.880 and she usually
00:14:17.360 asked for money
00:14:17.980 in exchange
00:14:18.460 especially towards
00:14:19.120 the end of her life
00:14:19.940 despite the claims
00:14:20.920 of massive bribes
00:14:21.680 she didn't have
00:14:22.180 a whole lot of money
00:14:22.900 and she was taken in
00:14:24.620 for over a year
00:14:26.240 by a kindly
00:14:27.160 pro-life lady in Dallas
00:14:28.360 when she just needed
00:14:28.980 a place to stay
00:14:29.840 she texted back
00:14:31.360 and forth
00:14:31.680 with Father Frank Bavone
00:14:32.780 who released
00:14:33.920 those text messages
00:14:34.720 when Nick Sweeney
00:14:35.740 showed up
00:14:36.240 and she was doing
00:14:36.620 the documentary
00:14:37.160 where she said
00:14:37.760 I'm doing some
00:14:38.400 interviews for a documentary
00:14:39.300 hoping to make
00:14:39.900 a few bucks
00:14:40.460 she actually said
00:14:41.460 that she was doing
00:14:42.120 it for money
00:14:42.660 what hasn't been
00:14:44.300 reported on yet
00:14:45.140 and I got this
00:14:45.920 from her friend
00:14:46.540 Karen Garnett
00:14:47.220 who was quoted
00:14:47.760 in both of the articles
00:14:48.580 that I wrote
00:14:48.900 that you referred to
00:14:49.640 she mentioned
00:14:50.820 that by the time
00:14:51.320 Nick Sweeney
00:14:51.880 showed up on the scene
00:14:52.980 she'd been in
00:14:53.740 out of the hospital
00:14:54.380 already 11 times
00:14:55.480 she was in
00:14:56.300 extremely poor health
00:14:57.500 and the doctor
00:14:58.360 told her her lungs
00:14:59.180 were black and hardened
00:15:00.220 that she could not
00:15:01.680 smoke cigarettes
00:15:02.380 or it could kill her
00:15:03.340 she was already
00:15:03.920 on oxygen at this point
00:15:04.920 and what Karen Garnett
00:15:06.640 told me in an
00:15:07.180 on the record interview
00:15:07.980 is that Nick Sweeney
00:15:10.500 would take her out
00:15:11.100 and give her cigarettes
00:15:11.820 she was dying
00:15:14.100 for a smoke
00:15:14.720 she would be messaging
00:15:15.740 her friends
00:15:16.460 like can you at least
00:15:17.060 get me an electronic
00:15:17.680 cigarette
00:15:18.040 she was a lifelong
00:15:18.700 heavy smoker
00:15:19.300 from a very young age
00:15:20.140 and this producer
00:15:21.300 was giving her cigarettes
00:15:22.260 even though the doctor
00:15:22.940 said it could kill her
00:15:23.980 so she said she wanted
00:15:27.120 to make some bucks
00:15:27.960 so I don't know
00:15:28.580 what the amount
00:15:29.040 that exchanged hands was
00:15:30.340 but that's one motivation
00:15:31.760 too she says almost
00:15:32.960 in the first 50 minutes
00:15:34.120 of the documentary
00:15:34.760 she said I really like
00:15:36.260 attention
00:15:36.660 I'm good at getting it
00:15:37.760 right so that's
00:15:38.720 that was another motivation
00:15:40.040 for wanting to do
00:15:40.680 the documentary
00:15:41.360 and he obviously
00:15:43.680 had an agenda
00:15:44.280 the first thing I did
00:15:45.000 when I found out
00:15:45.440 about this film
00:15:45.820 coming out
00:15:46.240 is I googled
00:15:46.700 to find out
00:15:47.360 what his previous
00:15:48.180 film projects
00:15:48.840 had been
00:15:49.220 one of them
00:15:50.000 was transgender
00:15:50.540 kid camp
00:15:51.320 the other one
00:15:51.740 was born in the
00:15:52.280 wrong body
00:15:52.900 another one
00:15:54.020 was on sex dolls
00:15:55.400 and then there was
00:15:56.800 a third one
00:15:57.320 I believe also
00:15:57.940 on an LGBT
00:15:59.380 related issue
00:16:00.580 so he was obviously
00:16:01.880 coming to this
00:16:02.540 with a motivation
00:16:04.040 right off the bat
00:16:04.760 and also it's just
00:16:06.300 again important
00:16:06.860 to recognize the context
00:16:07.940 of when he showed up
00:16:09.020 now just as an addendum
00:16:11.140 she does have a biographer
00:16:12.680 Josh Prager
00:16:13.640 who's been working
00:16:14.640 on a book on her
00:16:15.660 for ages
00:16:16.120 and did say that
00:16:17.020 she was very conflicted
00:16:18.340 about some things
00:16:19.360 towards the end
00:16:20.060 of her life
00:16:20.420 she did feel that
00:16:21.000 there were some
00:16:21.480 pro-lifers who
00:16:22.140 exploited her
00:16:22.880 which two of her
00:16:23.680 friends told me as well
00:16:24.720 and I quote them
00:16:25.260 in my Christianity Today
00:16:26.260 article
00:16:26.600 but he said that
00:16:28.040 she did say some
00:16:28.620 interesting things
00:16:29.320 that she struggled with
00:16:30.320 about the abortion issue
00:16:31.860 that will come out
00:16:32.420 in his book
00:16:32.740 in 2021
00:16:33.580 but if there is
00:16:35.920 a bombshell there
00:16:36.860 if there were some
00:16:37.640 things she struggled with
00:16:38.940 Nick Sweeney
00:16:39.820 didn't get it
00:16:40.440 and it didn't show up
00:16:41.180 in the documentary
00:16:41.900 so if there was
00:16:43.180 if there is a real scoop
00:16:44.300 about something
00:16:44.760 that she thought
00:16:45.280 towards the end of her life
00:16:46.040 that she shared with nobody
00:16:46.940 Josh Prager
00:16:48.100 got that story
00:16:48.880 and we'll be learning
00:16:49.720 about that next year
00:16:50.900 Nick Sweeney
00:16:52.240 didn't get it
00:16:52.860 the documentary
00:16:53.360 was really a well edited
00:16:54.280 nothing burger
00:16:54.800 let me ask you
00:16:57.840 about her reliability
00:16:59.780 as a spokesperson
00:17:00.900 because this was actually
00:17:02.040 a point that came out
00:17:03.080 in the documentary
00:17:03.820 about how she wasn't
00:17:05.220 the perfect spokesperson
00:17:06.280 for the pro-choice movement
00:17:07.740 she didn't have
00:17:08.540 all of the checkboxes
00:17:10.140 that they would have
00:17:10.620 loved to have had
00:17:11.300 and I'd say the same
00:17:12.240 is probably true
00:17:13.120 on the pro-life side
00:17:14.120 I mean had she not
00:17:15.460 been Jane Rowe
00:17:16.640 I don't think
00:17:17.700 there would have been
00:17:18.440 much of a role
00:17:19.420 that she could have played
00:17:20.240 now admittedly
00:17:21.020 that's a big if
00:17:21.880 but if she hadn't been
00:17:23.240 I mean that was her role
00:17:24.420 is that chapter of her life
00:17:25.740 where she was Jane Rowe
00:17:26.640 and it doesn't sound like
00:17:28.700 she didn't go through
00:17:29.980 and you acknowledge this
00:17:30.900 her life without
00:17:31.700 a lot of struggles
00:17:32.740 right up until the end
00:17:33.840 yeah well so just to give you
00:17:35.780 a little bit of context
00:17:36.660 right by the age of 22
00:17:38.060 she had been sexually abused
00:17:39.960 by a relative
00:17:40.620 she'd been beaten
00:17:41.660 by her husband
00:17:42.320 and then divorced
00:17:42.800 she married him
00:17:43.280 at the age of 16
00:17:44.040 she'd been pregnant
00:17:44.620 on a wedlock three times
00:17:45.860 she was also
00:17:46.700 she'd also done a five year
00:17:47.820 stint in reform school
00:17:48.880 in Texas
00:17:49.380 where she had also
00:17:50.460 been sexually abused
00:17:51.420 by age 22
00:17:52.640 she was a deeply hurting
00:17:54.120 and a deeply broken person
00:17:56.460 in many ways
00:17:57.320 people like that
00:17:58.260 generally don't make
00:17:59.060 reliable spokespeople
00:18:00.220 and in fact the reason
00:18:01.140 the pro-choice movement
00:18:01.860 didn't want her
00:18:02.320 as a spokesperson
00:18:02.900 this is where you can't
00:18:04.120 really blame them
00:18:04.740 is that one of her
00:18:05.780 one of her major interviews
00:18:07.040 that got arranged
00:18:07.680 she admitted that she lied
00:18:09.080 when she said the pregnancy
00:18:09.980 that formed the basis
00:18:11.220 of the Roe case
00:18:11.940 was through rape
00:18:12.600 and they felt that confirmed
00:18:14.400 that she was very volatile
00:18:15.420 that it made them look like
00:18:17.160 like they'd been lying
00:18:18.540 all along
00:18:19.040 when of course they claimed
00:18:20.300 that they hadn't been lying
00:18:21.280 that that's the story
00:18:21.900 Norma McCorvey
00:18:22.460 had told them
00:18:22.980 it's interesting
00:18:23.880 you bring up her reliability
00:18:25.040 because three separate people
00:18:28.080 without having communicated
00:18:29.040 with each other
00:18:29.680 that I interviewed
00:18:30.440 back to back
00:18:31.640 all said
00:18:32.520 the biggest reason
00:18:34.340 you know that Rob Schenck
00:18:35.880 in this film
00:18:37.560 he was the former
00:18:38.340 pro-life fellow
00:18:38.980 was full of it
00:18:39.960 and that the narrative
00:18:40.480 was wrong
00:18:40.960 is that you couldn't
00:18:41.640 coach Norma McCorvey
00:18:42.500 to say anything
00:18:43.180 they actually said it
00:18:44.560 while laughing
00:18:45.140 they said you know what
00:18:45.880 if we could have coached her
00:18:47.180 to say certain things
00:18:48.180 and to stick to her
00:18:48.820 stump speech
00:18:49.280 we would have
00:18:49.780 but when you invited Norma McCorvey
00:18:51.560 to show up
00:18:52.000 and you handed her a mic
00:18:52.740 she was going to say
00:18:53.360 what Norma felt like saying
00:18:54.380 when she went on TV
00:18:55.500 she was going to say
00:18:56.160 exactly what she felt like saying
00:18:57.460 and to give you a prime example
00:18:59.040 one of the first times
00:19:00.220 she went on TV
00:19:01.340 after her pro-life conversion
00:19:03.000 she hadn't really thought
00:19:04.440 all the details through yet
00:19:05.580 they asked her
00:19:06.080 if she was okay
00:19:06.800 with abortion
00:19:07.340 in the case of rape
00:19:08.180 and she said she was
00:19:09.520 she didn't even fully understand
00:19:10.940 the pro-life position
00:19:12.140 at that point
00:19:12.760 she was just expressing
00:19:14.120 what she had to say
00:19:15.040 so if she was this sort of
00:19:16.380 groomed and coached speaker
00:19:18.000 she would not have been going on TV
00:19:19.920 and saying
00:19:20.360 actually I support abortion
00:19:21.680 in these particular circumstances
00:19:23.900 so her friends were pretty up front
00:19:27.160 and basically said like
00:19:27.980 look if we could have coached her
00:19:29.080 we would have
00:19:29.600 but nobody could coach Norma
00:19:30.940 Norma was Norma
00:19:32.000 and you took what you could get
00:19:33.160 she liked to have drinks
00:19:34.100 she smoked like a chimney
00:19:35.380 and everybody said
00:19:36.960 that her sense of humor
00:19:37.860 was just uproarious
00:19:39.420 but also extremely irreverent
00:19:41.400 she really did not fit the mold
00:19:43.220 of you know
00:19:43.960 a Christian inspirational speaker
00:19:45.340 you know the type
00:19:46.140 that I'm talking about right
00:19:47.180 they're sort of squeaky clean
00:19:48.440 you have no pictures on Facebook
00:19:49.660 of them having a beer
00:19:50.540 that was not Norma McCorvey
00:19:52.180 she was who she was
00:19:53.540 take it or leave it
00:19:54.340 and the pro-life movement left it
00:19:56.160 and the pro-life movement
00:19:57.340 loved her for who she was
00:19:58.400 you know I'm assuming
00:20:00.580 the timing of this
00:20:01.620 is to coincide
00:20:03.100 with the upcoming election
00:20:04.280 cast conservatives
00:20:05.160 and the religious right
00:20:06.600 and the pro-life movement
00:20:07.540 in a bad light
00:20:08.540 but the fact is
00:20:09.640 we're talking about
00:20:10.340 three and a half years
00:20:11.320 after this woman
00:20:12.580 passed away
00:20:13.680 no ability for her
00:20:15.260 to respond to it
00:20:16.240 and that's almost by design
00:20:17.920 you can tell
00:20:18.560 well it's 100% by design
00:20:20.920 like look
00:20:21.300 it's no it's no accident
00:20:23.020 FX Hulu
00:20:23.960 is the one that released
00:20:24.640 this documentary
00:20:25.260 some of your viewers
00:20:26.740 might know this
00:20:27.300 but they also recently
00:20:28.200 released an ongoing
00:20:29.060 mini-series called
00:20:29.760 Mrs. America
00:20:30.460 on Phyllis Schlafly
00:20:31.500 who was also a pro-life activist
00:20:33.300 who took on
00:20:33.940 the Equal Rights Amendment
00:20:34.920 and won
00:20:35.420 and the things they say
00:20:37.360 about her
00:20:37.700 are just horrifying
00:20:39.140 and things that they could not
00:20:40.900 say if she was still alive
00:20:42.140 like Phyllis would have
00:20:43.860 sued them into the ground
00:20:44.680 if they said this
00:20:45.180 while she was alive
00:20:45.760 but now she's been gone
00:20:46.560 for two years
00:20:47.120 and now they can sort of
00:20:48.360 say whatever they want
00:20:49.340 I think that one of the
00:20:51.160 political ramifications
00:20:51.980 that's very interesting here
00:20:53.060 is that in the mid-2000s
00:20:56.160 Norma McCorvey
00:20:57.560 actually sued
00:20:58.700 to have Roe v. Wade
00:20:59.620 overturned based on
00:21:00.460 new evidence
00:21:00.940 that abortion hurts women
00:21:01.940 evidence in her deposition
00:21:04.600 in her Supreme Court
00:21:06.140 filing is actually
00:21:07.780 being used right now
00:21:08.580 in another pro-life case
00:21:09.820 that's winding its way
00:21:10.660 up to the Supreme Court
00:21:11.600 so there is some suspicion
00:21:12.980 that this documentary
00:21:13.800 if you can undermine
00:21:15.040 Norma McCorvey's sincerity
00:21:16.280 then you can undermine
00:21:17.460 the evidence
00:21:17.960 that is still currently
00:21:19.220 in play
00:21:19.980 in a very important
00:21:21.260 pro-life case
00:21:22.040 the same way that
00:21:23.200 FXHulu released a series
00:21:24.660 trying to claim
00:21:25.820 all sorts of horrifying
00:21:26.540 things about Phyllis Schlafly
00:21:27.680 like she was a racist
00:21:28.820 etc. etc.
00:21:30.120 just as the Equal Rights Amendment
00:21:31.820 is on the Biden platform
00:21:33.720 the issues that
00:21:35.640 Jane Roe
00:21:36.560 Norma McCorvey
00:21:37.320 Phyllis Schlafly
00:21:38.060 the issues that they were
00:21:39.420 involved in
00:21:40.040 their lives revolved around
00:21:41.240 are very much in play
00:21:42.620 in some cases
00:21:43.520 back in play
00:21:44.420 and yeah
00:21:45.180 I think that these
00:21:46.000 documentaries are getting
00:21:46.940 this much traction
00:21:47.840 because they're still
00:21:48.460 considered to be
00:21:49.480 politically relevant
00:21:50.540 in the moment
00:21:51.240 it's not just a trip
00:21:52.220 through you know
00:21:52.980 the 1990s pro-life movement
00:21:54.400 and all the craziness
00:21:55.180 of Operation Rescue
00:21:56.060 no it's
00:21:56.940 it's about the here
00:21:58.400 and now
00:21:58.840 in a big way
00:21:59.560 Jonathan Van Maren
00:22:02.000 author of The Culture War
00:22:03.340 publisher of The Bridgehead
00:22:04.660 always a pleasure sir
00:22:05.460 thanks for coming on
00:22:06.240 thanks a lot Andrew
00:22:07.440 thanks for listening to
00:22:08.820 The Andrew Lawton Show
00:22:09.820 support the program
00:22:10.880 by donating to
00:22:11.680 True North
00:22:12.120 at www.tnc.news
00:22:15.300 the
00:22:27.940 the
00:22:28.580 the
00:22:29.040 other
00:22:29.400 the
00:22:33.200 the