Juno News - Did Trudeau just kill India’s allyship with Canada？ (ft. Rupa Subramanya)

00:00:00.000 I want to welcome into this show an expert on Indian politics and a wonderful contributor

00:00:13.340 to True North, host of the Rupa Subramanya show, the aptly named Rupa Subramanya. Rupa,

00:00:19.320 it's good to talk to you on this. I mean, obviously, the domestic politics in India

00:00:24.540 are far more complex than we can delve into on this show. And I know that diaspora politics in

00:00:30.680 Canada, which has multiculturalism as its official mandate, tend to seep into our affairs here. But

00:00:36.360 at its core, I mean, an allegation of this nature without accompanying evidence is a huge problem.

00:00:44.460 Absolutely, Andrew. And the manner in which these allegations were made were rather dramatic.

00:00:50.080 You know, in the House of Commons, the prime minister makes these allegations against

00:00:56.360 an ally. You know, this is the kind of treatment that you would, this is how you treat a tinpot

00:01:04.720 dictatorship like North Korea, not an ally. And as I've been commenting on X or Twitter, 0.71

00:01:12.060 whatever it's called right now, that, you know, there were ways in which Justin Trudeau could

00:01:17.640 have handled this. He could have handled this more diplomatically. You know, there's all kinds of

00:01:22.340 private back-channel talks. He could have, I think he raised this with Modi at the G20 summit last

00:01:29.440 week. But, you know, there's a lot more that could have been done. But instead, you know,

00:01:35.620 he just really just, you know, launched these allegations in this very dramatic manner,

00:01:41.060 alienating an ally. I mean, where the relationship was already on the, you know,

00:01:45.400 on the brink. And now it's really like, I don't even know how we recover from this.

00:01:50.320 Well, far be it for me to give Justin Trudeau with his track record on India and on foreign policy

00:01:55.400 in general, the benefit of the doubt. But if he did raise this with Modi, he did raise it directly,

00:02:00.700 he raised it with Indian officials, and they were not getting any response or any pushback or any

00:02:06.180 cooperation, what is the right way of dealing with it?

00:02:08.660 Well, as I mentioned, I mean, there's lots that, a lot that could have, that could have been done.

00:02:14.540 He could have continued with these, with these talks. He could have continued engaging with his,

00:02:22.160 with Modi and the officials in foreign affairs or global affairs could have reached out to their

00:02:31.340 counterparts in India, their foreign ministry. The point is, Andrew, you know, if this intelligence,

00:02:42.380 if it is credible, there's a way of working with an ally, you know, on this. I mean, it's also in

00:02:48.260 Canada's interest to be able to identify potential terrorists. You know, let's not forget, and a lot of

00:02:59.240 Canadians forget this. One of the worst terrorist attacks on Canada was the Air India bombing of

00:03:05.460 1987. More than 300 people died in that bombing, and most of them were Canadians. And that was

00:03:13.400 perpetrated by Khalistani separatists living right here in Canada. So we've kind of normalized the

00:03:20.680 Khalistan separatist movement, which is, which India continues to treat, treat the Khalistan separatist

00:03:26.000 movement as a serious security threat. We've unfortunately in Canada not taken it very

00:03:30.640 seriously, but for India, it's a very serious issue. Of course, I mean, you know, you know,

00:03:35.420 one doesn't want to excuse extrajudicial killings. I absolutely abhor them. And, you know, nothing can

00:03:42.140 justify that. But, you know, the point is that, you know, we've come to this point where India,

00:03:48.560 you know, actually did, when Justin Trudeau visited India in 2018, I believe the then chief minister of

00:03:56.700 the state of Punjab, gave a list of, you know, people that India was concerned about. These were,

00:04:04.080 you know, some, and that included Hardeep Singh Nijjar. And this list was given to Justin Trudeau by

00:04:13.240 an opposition leader, by, by, by, by, by not, by not a member of the ruling party. It was given to

00:04:21.940 Justin Trudeau by a member of the Congress party, which is, you know, which is opposed to the current

00:04:29.980 ruling party. So the point is that in India, across political lines, across partisan and ideological

00:04:36.200 lines, the Khalistan separatist movement is considered a serious security threat. And it's been,

00:04:41.640 you know, a longstanding issue with Canada that Canada just doesn't take this seriously.

00:04:47.400 I share, by the way, your contempt for extrajudicial actions and extrajudicial killing.

00:04:53.220 So I don't want any one of the, you know, people that are out there that just want to, you know,

00:04:57.320 crap on this show and True North and you and I to just say, oh, they're defending it. It's not

00:05:01.240 actually that I'm defending your due process. And when you bring up India's attempts to have these 0.99

00:05:06.440 issues brought up with Trudeau in the past, it's worth noting on that 2018 trip that Trudeau

00:05:12.260 literally brought along in his delegation, a man who had been convicted of the attempted

00:05:17.620 assassination of Ujjal Dosanj, a former liberal health minister and former BC premier. Again,

00:05:23.800 the exact type of person that India is here saying, hey, you've got this problem. We'd like 0.98

00:05:28.240 to help you that Canada was not dealing with.

00:05:30.220 Absolutely. And let's take Hardeep Singh Nijjar. Now, you know, I didn't know these details about

00:05:37.420 him till, you know, I began reading about him yesterday. And so apparently he comes to Canada

00:05:43.160 on a false pretext and a false passport. He applies to become a refugee and the refugee panel rules that

00:05:50.900 his story of being tortured in India by Indian police and experiencing brutality at their hands

00:05:58.300 was completely fabricated. So they reject his application. And then he, I think he makes a

00:06:05.840 couple of attempts at trying to remain in Canada, but he gets rejected. He marries a woman in BC

00:06:11.040 and the immigration panel once again rules that he, you know, this is a marriage of convenience. So

00:06:16.920 they reject his application. But he eventually goes on to become a citizen in 2015. By the way,

00:06:23.800 I mean, there were also reports that he was on a no-fly list. So, you know, it's mind-boggling to me,

00:06:32.600 you know, as an immigrant who's been here since the late 90s, you know, I came here as a young person

00:06:39.220 and just the, just how hard I had to work to remain in Canada, to be in, you know, in a country that

00:06:46.400 I love so much. But, you know, whereas someone like Khardeep Singh Nijjar, you know, he finds himself

00:06:53.060 in all of these situations, but he's a Canadian citizen. It's, it's just mind-boggling, you know, 1.00

00:06:59.220 what exactly happened there? And my sense is that reading between the lines, you know, when I hear

00:07:04.400 Melanie Jolie talking about, you know, this issue and, and I saw a tweet by Mark Miller, you know,

00:07:10.980 they're, they're actually trying to portray this guy as some kind of a saint. And, and, and he wasn't,

00:07:17.800 and I have no reason to dispute, you know, you know, concerns that India had on this guy that,

00:07:27.420 you know, I have no reasons to disbelieve Indian intelligence on this person. I, you know, I, I,

00:07:33.540 but I have no reasons to disbelieve the CISA's allegations that, you know, that, that there were some

00:07:39.860 high, you know, some agents of India who may have been responsible for this. But at this point,

00:07:44.740 these are just allegations. Where's the proof? You know, you're jeopardizing a very important

00:07:50.640 bilateral relationship. Keep in mind that India is seen as a counterweight to China. And you have

00:07:56.400 all of these major powers like the US, the UK, Australia courting India in a really big way.

00:08:02.400 But, you know, Justin Trudeau has been doing the opposite since his failed India trip in 2018. And

00:08:10.160 since then, there's been a complete deterioration in the bilateral ties. Remember, Andrew, back in

00:08:17.640 December 2020, when the farmers protests was happening in India, where, you know, there was a

00:08:23.600 similar tactic to the freedom convoy protests, where tractors and trailers just blocked like highways

00:08:29.820 and, and, and, and the city of, the capital city of Delhi, Trudeau actually condemned the Indian

00:08:35.940 government. And, you know, and that was, you know, that was, the Indians did not take that.

00:08:41.040 Yeah, I mean, imagine if roles were reversed, and Modi was out there talking about the emergencies

00:08:45.220 act to rein in the freedom convoy. I mean, he would say, that's domestic meddling, get out of our

00:08:49.820 backyard. Yeah, absolutely. And I don't think Modi even like, weighed in on the freedom convoy. But,

00:08:55.240 you know, the hypocrisy of it was just astounding. But again, he was, he was really playing to the

00:09:00.240 Sikh diaspora here. You know, they are an important constituency. My point is, this is just absolutely

00:09:06.980 mind boggling. It's diabolical. You, you're risking jeopardizing a very, very important bilateral

00:09:14.020 relationship, when the rest of the world is like knocking on India's door. And here you are making

00:09:20.280 these serious allegations. And, and now today, as you as you, as you played that clip early,

00:09:26.440 earlier, he's kind of climbing down from what he said yesterday.

00:09:31.520 Yeah, and I should just say here, I mean, in international relationships, there's a term

00:09:35.400 called the realpolitik, which is to basically discuss the political landscape, as the world is

00:09:41.060 not in this idealistic way, you want the world to be. And this means that often, when you're picking

00:09:45.140 your friends and allies, you aren't looking for perfect people, you're looking for people that

00:09:49.660 you need in a particular situation, which is why the West gets along with Saudi Arabia, because Saudi 0.99

00:09:54.940 Arabia is a necessary counterbalance to Iran. India is a very interesting country, because 0.89

00:10:00.960 geopolitically, internationally, it's not, I'm being simplistic here, but it's not particularly

00:10:07.300 ideological in the sense that they'll work with whoever it's in their best interest to work with,

00:10:11.800 which means India is available as a partner for China or Russia or the United States or Canada.

00:10:17.880 And I think to have a country with a billion people with the English language with a democracy

00:10:23.060 with a rule of law, not as our ally is a profound tactical and moral failure. But economically, it's

00:10:31.300 an incredibly important relationship. And if we do distance ourselves from this, it is going to be to

00:10:36.780 the benefit of China, for example. Yeah, no, absolutely. And speaking of real politic, I mean,

00:10:43.100 I was just, I just saw this tweet, that the US has actually been very, very reticent about,

00:10:51.960 you know, about condemning, of taking Canada's side in this, because... Same as the UK, just within

00:11:01.000 the last hour, they've said, we're not getting into this. Absolutely. The response from Canada's

00:11:07.640 allies has been very lukewarm and tepid. So you really have to wonder what was Justin Trudeau

00:11:13.640 thinking and making these allegations? Did he seriously think that the US, you know, I have a

00:11:19.720 million problems with the Biden administration. But I know one thing for sure, you know, whether it was

00:11:25.240 Trump or Biden, there's been a continuity in their Indo-Pacific policy. And, you know, and they both

00:11:31.860 recognize that India is an important player and as a counterweight to China. So, you know, you really

00:11:38.740 have to wonder, like, in making these allegations, did he think that he would have all of these

00:11:42.720 countries on Canada's side and condemn India? You know, who's advising him? You know, who's advising

00:11:48.700 him on India? Well, I mean, that's an important question that I'd love to hear the answer to,

00:11:53.380 which is what, if any, the discussions were between Canada and everyone else at the Five Eyes

00:11:58.600 table. I mean, when he sat down, assuming he did, and I certainly hope he did, and presented it to

00:12:03.160 the UK and Australia, New Zealand and the US, how did they respond? And did he think that they were

00:12:09.440 going to fall in line? Did they warn him against going down this road? I don't know. And a part of

00:12:14.280 it is that it's incredibly difficult to really ascertain any aspect of this without knowing what the

00:12:19.720 intelligence is, because Justin Trudeau did not say that there are people that may have ties to

00:12:25.480 the Indian government. He said the Indian government. He specifically said they were responsible here.

00:12:30.960 Now, that, to the average person, is drawing a direct line between the killing of this man,

00:12:37.420 of Hardeep Singh Nigel, and Modi himself, or people at the higher levels. And that is a huge allegation.

00:12:43.740 And when you look at India's response to this, they didn't do the whole Saudi Arabia thing of,

00:12:48.340 oh, well, we're going to look into it, and oh, maybe someone down the road. They're saying,

00:12:52.600 no, this is absolutely patently untrue.

00:12:55.700 Yeah, I think so. Look, I mean, I, you know, these are allegations until someone actually tells us,

00:13:04.360 you know, gives us more evidence. And I think Pierre Polly ever made a statement to that effect this

00:13:10.360 morning. These are very serious allegations. And, you know, Trudeau this morning, you know,

00:13:18.520 I sensed a climb down. With Pierre Polly ever, you know, he was basically buying Trudeau's

00:13:25.300 story yesterday. And this morning, he was also asking for more questions. You know, where's the

00:13:31.820 evidence? And how did you tie this to the Indian government? You know, whether the Indian government

00:13:37.260 did this or not? I mean, if they did this, I mean, it's absolutely, you know, you know,

00:13:41.320 no uncertain terms, you must, you know, you must oppose it. And I say this as someone who

00:13:48.720 comes from India originally, you know, there's no room for this kind of, you know, there's no 1.00

00:13:54.500 justification for this kind of extrajudicial operation. But having said that, you know,

00:14:02.340 where exactly is the evidence? Yeah, very well said. I know we'll continue on this as I expect

00:14:08.820 you will as well. Rupa Zubraman, you can catch her show Saturdays at True North,

00:14:12.880 the Rupa Zubramanya show. Thank you so much, Rupa. Thanks, Andrew.

00:14:16.420 Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show. Support the program by donating to True North

00:14:20.880 at www.tnc.news.

00:14:24.340 www.tnc.news.com.au

Juno News - September 20, 2023

Did Trudeau just kill India’s allyship with Canada？ (ft. Rupa Subramanya)

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