Juno News - September 20, 2023


Did Trudeau just kill India’s allyship with Canada？ (ft. Rupa Subramanya)


Episode Stats

Length

14 minutes

Words per Minute

158.19841

Word Count

2,358

Sentence Count

126

Misogynist Sentences

1

Hate Speech Sentences

7


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 I want to welcome into this show an expert on Indian politics and a wonderful contributor
00:00:13.340 to True North, host of the Rupa Subramanya show, the aptly named Rupa Subramanya. Rupa,
00:00:19.320 it's good to talk to you on this. I mean, obviously, the domestic politics in India
00:00:24.540 are far more complex than we can delve into on this show. And I know that diaspora politics in
00:00:30.680 Canada, which has multiculturalism as its official mandate, tend to seep into our affairs here. But
00:00:36.360 at its core, I mean, an allegation of this nature without accompanying evidence is a huge problem.
00:00:44.460 Absolutely, Andrew. And the manner in which these allegations were made were rather dramatic.
00:00:50.080 You know, in the House of Commons, the prime minister makes these allegations against
00:00:56.360 an ally. You know, this is the kind of treatment that you would, this is how you treat a tinpot
00:01:04.720 dictatorship like North Korea, not an ally. And as I've been commenting on X or Twitter,
00:01:12.060 whatever it's called right now, that, you know, there were ways in which Justin Trudeau could
00:01:17.640 have handled this. He could have handled this more diplomatically. You know, there's all kinds of
00:01:22.340 private back-channel talks. He could have, I think he raised this with Modi at the G20 summit last
00:01:29.440 week. But, you know, there's a lot more that could have been done. But instead, you know,
00:01:35.620 he just really just, you know, launched these allegations in this very dramatic manner,
00:01:41.060 alienating an ally. I mean, where the relationship was already on the, you know,
00:01:45.400 on the brink. And now it's really like, I don't even know how we recover from this.
00:01:50.320 Well, far be it for me to give Justin Trudeau with his track record on India and on foreign policy
00:01:55.400 in general, the benefit of the doubt. But if he did raise this with Modi, he did raise it directly,
00:02:00.700 he raised it with Indian officials, and they were not getting any response or any pushback or any
00:02:06.180 cooperation, what is the right way of dealing with it?
00:02:08.660 Well, as I mentioned, I mean, there's lots that, a lot that could have, that could have been done.
00:02:14.540 He could have continued with these, with these talks. He could have continued engaging with his,
00:02:22.160 with Modi and the officials in foreign affairs or global affairs could have reached out to their
00:02:31.340 counterparts in India, their foreign ministry. The point is, Andrew, you know, if this intelligence,
00:02:42.380 if it is credible, there's a way of working with an ally, you know, on this. I mean, it's also in
00:02:48.260 Canada's interest to be able to identify potential terrorists. You know, let's not forget, and a lot of
00:02:59.240 Canadians forget this. One of the worst terrorist attacks on Canada was the Air India bombing of
00:03:05.460 1987. More than 300 people died in that bombing, and most of them were Canadians. And that was
00:03:13.400 perpetrated by Khalistani separatists living right here in Canada. So we've kind of normalized the
00:03:20.680 Khalistan separatist movement, which is, which India continues to treat, treat the Khalistan separatist
00:03:26.000 movement as a serious security threat. We've unfortunately in Canada not taken it very
00:03:30.640 seriously, but for India, it's a very serious issue. Of course, I mean, you know, you know,
00:03:35.420 one doesn't want to excuse extrajudicial killings. I absolutely abhor them. And, you know, nothing can
00:03:42.140 justify that. But, you know, the point is that, you know, we've come to this point where India,
00:03:48.560 you know, actually did, when Justin Trudeau visited India in 2018, I believe the then chief minister of
00:03:56.700 the state of Punjab, gave a list of, you know, people that India was concerned about. These were,
00:04:04.080 you know, some, and that included Hardeep Singh Nijjar. And this list was given to Justin Trudeau by
00:04:13.240 an opposition leader, by, by, by, by, by not, by not a member of the ruling party. It was given to
00:04:21.940 Justin Trudeau by a member of the Congress party, which is, you know, which is opposed to the current
00:04:29.980 ruling party. So the point is that in India, across political lines, across partisan and ideological
00:04:36.200 lines, the Khalistan separatist movement is considered a serious security threat. And it's been,
00:04:41.640 you know, a longstanding issue with Canada that Canada just doesn't take this seriously.
00:04:47.400 I share, by the way, your contempt for extrajudicial actions and extrajudicial killing.
00:04:53.220 So I don't want any one of the, you know, people that are out there that just want to, you know,
00:04:57.320 crap on this show and True North and you and I to just say, oh, they're defending it. It's not
00:05:01.240 actually that I'm defending your due process. And when you bring up India's attempts to have these
00:05:06.440 issues brought up with Trudeau in the past, it's worth noting on that 2018 trip that Trudeau
00:05:12.260 literally brought along in his delegation, a man who had been convicted of the attempted
00:05:17.620 assassination of Ujjal Dosanj, a former liberal health minister and former BC premier. Again,
00:05:23.800 the exact type of person that India is here saying, hey, you've got this problem. We'd like
00:05:28.240 to help you that Canada was not dealing with.
00:05:30.220 Absolutely. And let's take Hardeep Singh Nijjar. Now, you know, I didn't know these details about
00:05:37.420 him till, you know, I began reading about him yesterday. And so apparently he comes to Canada
00:05:43.160 on a false pretext and a false passport. He applies to become a refugee and the refugee panel rules that
00:05:50.900 his story of being tortured in India by Indian police and experiencing brutality at their hands
00:05:58.300 was completely fabricated. So they reject his application. And then he, I think he makes a
00:06:05.840 couple of attempts at trying to remain in Canada, but he gets rejected. He marries a woman in BC
00:06:11.040 and the immigration panel once again rules that he, you know, this is a marriage of convenience. So
00:06:16.920 they reject his application. But he eventually goes on to become a citizen in 2015. By the way,
00:06:23.800 I mean, there were also reports that he was on a no-fly list. So, you know, it's mind-boggling to me,
00:06:32.600 you know, as an immigrant who's been here since the late 90s, you know, I came here as a young person
00:06:39.220 and just the, just how hard I had to work to remain in Canada, to be in, you know, in a country that
00:06:46.400 I love so much. But, you know, whereas someone like Khardeep Singh Nijjar, you know, he finds himself
00:06:53.060 in all of these situations, but he's a Canadian citizen. It's, it's just mind-boggling, you know,
00:06:59.220 what exactly happened there? And my sense is that reading between the lines, you know, when I hear
00:07:04.400 Melanie Jolie talking about, you know, this issue and, and I saw a tweet by Mark Miller, you know,
00:07:10.980 they're, they're actually trying to portray this guy as some kind of a saint. And, and, and he wasn't,
00:07:17.800 and I have no reason to dispute, you know, you know, concerns that India had on this guy that,
00:07:27.420 you know, I have no reasons to disbelieve Indian intelligence on this person. I, you know, I, I,
00:07:33.540 but I have no reasons to disbelieve the CISA's allegations that, you know, that, that there were some
00:07:39.860 high, you know, some agents of India who may have been responsible for this. But at this point,
00:07:44.740 these are just allegations. Where's the proof? You know, you're jeopardizing a very important
00:07:50.640 bilateral relationship. Keep in mind that India is seen as a counterweight to China. And you have
00:07:56.400 all of these major powers like the US, the UK, Australia courting India in a really big way.
00:08:02.400 But, you know, Justin Trudeau has been doing the opposite since his failed India trip in 2018. And
00:08:10.160 since then, there's been a complete deterioration in the bilateral ties. Remember, Andrew, back in
00:08:17.640 December 2020, when the farmers protests was happening in India, where, you know, there was a
00:08:23.600 similar tactic to the freedom convoy protests, where tractors and trailers just blocked like highways
00:08:29.820 and, and, and, and the city of, the capital city of Delhi, Trudeau actually condemned the Indian
00:08:35.940 government. And, you know, and that was, you know, that was, the Indians did not take that.
00:08:41.040 Yeah, I mean, imagine if roles were reversed, and Modi was out there talking about the emergencies
00:08:45.220 act to rein in the freedom convoy. I mean, he would say, that's domestic meddling, get out of our
00:08:49.820 backyard. Yeah, absolutely. And I don't think Modi even like, weighed in on the freedom convoy. But,
00:08:55.240 you know, the hypocrisy of it was just astounding. But again, he was, he was really playing to the
00:09:00.240 Sikh diaspora here. You know, they are an important constituency. My point is, this is just absolutely
00:09:06.980 mind boggling. It's diabolical. You, you're risking jeopardizing a very, very important bilateral
00:09:14.020 relationship, when the rest of the world is like knocking on India's door. And here you are making
00:09:20.280 these serious allegations. And, and now today, as you as you, as you played that clip early,
00:09:26.440 earlier, he's kind of climbing down from what he said yesterday.
00:09:31.520 Yeah, and I should just say here, I mean, in international relationships, there's a term
00:09:35.400 called the realpolitik, which is to basically discuss the political landscape, as the world is
00:09:41.060 not in this idealistic way, you want the world to be. And this means that often, when you're picking
00:09:45.140 your friends and allies, you aren't looking for perfect people, you're looking for people that
00:09:49.660 you need in a particular situation, which is why the West gets along with Saudi Arabia, because Saudi
00:09:54.940 Arabia is a necessary counterbalance to Iran. India is a very interesting country, because
00:10:00.960 geopolitically, internationally, it's not, I'm being simplistic here, but it's not particularly
00:10:07.300 ideological in the sense that they'll work with whoever it's in their best interest to work with,
00:10:11.800 which means India is available as a partner for China or Russia or the United States or Canada.
00:10:17.880 And I think to have a country with a billion people with the English language with a democracy
00:10:23.060 with a rule of law, not as our ally is a profound tactical and moral failure. But economically, it's
00:10:31.300 an incredibly important relationship. And if we do distance ourselves from this, it is going to be to
00:10:36.780 the benefit of China, for example. Yeah, no, absolutely. And speaking of real politic, I mean,
00:10:43.100 I was just, I just saw this tweet, that the US has actually been very, very reticent about,
00:10:51.960 you know, about condemning, of taking Canada's side in this, because... Same as the UK, just within
00:11:01.000 the last hour, they've said, we're not getting into this. Absolutely. The response from Canada's
00:11:07.640 allies has been very lukewarm and tepid. So you really have to wonder what was Justin Trudeau
00:11:13.640 thinking and making these allegations? Did he seriously think that the US, you know, I have a
00:11:19.720 million problems with the Biden administration. But I know one thing for sure, you know, whether it was
00:11:25.240 Trump or Biden, there's been a continuity in their Indo-Pacific policy. And, you know, and they both
00:11:31.860 recognize that India is an important player and as a counterweight to China. So, you know, you really
00:11:38.740 have to wonder, like, in making these allegations, did he think that he would have all of these
00:11:42.720 countries on Canada's side and condemn India? You know, who's advising him? You know, who's advising
00:11:48.700 him on India? Well, I mean, that's an important question that I'd love to hear the answer to,
00:11:53.380 which is what, if any, the discussions were between Canada and everyone else at the Five Eyes
00:11:58.600 table. I mean, when he sat down, assuming he did, and I certainly hope he did, and presented it to
00:12:03.160 the UK and Australia, New Zealand and the US, how did they respond? And did he think that they were
00:12:09.440 going to fall in line? Did they warn him against going down this road? I don't know. And a part of
00:12:14.280 it is that it's incredibly difficult to really ascertain any aspect of this without knowing what the
00:12:19.720 intelligence is, because Justin Trudeau did not say that there are people that may have ties to
00:12:25.480 the Indian government. He said the Indian government. He specifically said they were responsible here.
00:12:30.960 Now, that, to the average person, is drawing a direct line between the killing of this man,
00:12:37.420 of Hardeep Singh Nigel, and Modi himself, or people at the higher levels. And that is a huge allegation.
00:12:43.740 And when you look at India's response to this, they didn't do the whole Saudi Arabia thing of,
00:12:48.340 oh, well, we're going to look into it, and oh, maybe someone down the road. They're saying,
00:12:52.600 no, this is absolutely patently untrue.
00:12:55.700 Yeah, I think so. Look, I mean, I, you know, these are allegations until someone actually tells us,
00:13:04.360 you know, gives us more evidence. And I think Pierre Polly ever made a statement to that effect this
00:13:10.360 morning. These are very serious allegations. And, you know, Trudeau this morning, you know,
00:13:18.520 I sensed a climb down. With Pierre Polly ever, you know, he was basically buying Trudeau's
00:13:25.300 story yesterday. And this morning, he was also asking for more questions. You know, where's the
00:13:31.820 evidence? And how did you tie this to the Indian government? You know, whether the Indian government
00:13:37.260 did this or not? I mean, if they did this, I mean, it's absolutely, you know, you know,
00:13:41.320 no uncertain terms, you must, you know, you must oppose it. And I say this as someone who
00:13:48.720 comes from India originally, you know, there's no room for this kind of, you know, there's no
00:13:54.500 justification for this kind of extrajudicial operation. But having said that, you know,
00:14:02.340 where exactly is the evidence? Yeah, very well said. I know we'll continue on this as I expect
00:14:08.820 you will as well. Rupa Zubraman, you can catch her show Saturdays at True North,
00:14:12.880 the Rupa Zubramanya show. Thank you so much, Rupa. Thanks, Andrew.
00:14:16.420 Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show. Support the program by donating to True North
00:14:20.880 at www.tnc.news.
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