Juno News - December 09, 2024


Do the Indigenous ‘Land Back’ activists HATE Canada？


Episode Stats

Length

18 minutes

Words per Minute

175.44267

Word Count

3,273

Sentence Count

173

Hate Speech Sentences

13


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Radical Indigenous activists in Canada have become far more brazen in recent years about
00:00:08.020 what their true intentions are. When they say land back, what exactly does that mean? When
00:00:13.100 they accuse you of being a settler, when they accuse Canada of being a genocidal state,
00:00:18.580 what does that mean? Many of these radical Indigenous activists seek to delegitimize
00:00:23.800 Canada as a nation. They seek to delegitimize your rightful presence in Canada, your
00:00:29.760 Canadian identity by labeling you as a settler on stolen land. And what is land back? Well,
00:00:35.840 land back at its core is the idea that these activists seek to have a racial ethno state
00:00:42.620 in Canada for their own tribe. And yet none of this is seen as a concern or an issue by anyone
00:00:47.960 with any political power in Canada. It should be even more concerning when these same activists
00:00:52.960 describe terrorist attacks in the Middle East, like what we saw on October 7th as decolonization
00:00:58.220 and what they seek to do in Canada is to decolonize Canada. Are you concerned about any of that yet?
00:01:03.640 Well, you might be after you hear what our next guest has to say. Well, joining us now on the
00:01:08.880 Faulkner Show is author and tradesperson from Winnipeg, Michael Melanson. He recently published
00:01:15.340 this story in C2C Journal, the Indigenous land back movement, a landmine for Canadians. Michael,
00:01:22.980 thank you so much for joining us on the show. Thank you for having me. So just walk us through
00:01:27.860 what land back is, what this movement is, and why Canadians should be paying attention to it.
00:01:34.080 It's more of a political sentiment than anything else. It's not an organized movement.
00:01:39.120 Within land back, there's various factions. Some of them are very militant. More or less,
00:01:44.960 they're trying to get land back one way or the other, either jurisdictionally, politically,
00:01:48.520 or just taking over like in Oka, for instance, or Caledonia.
00:01:53.200 Right. And where does this idea originate? Is this Canadian or does this come from other places?
00:01:59.540 It originated in America in around 2010, I believe. I think it started with somebody trying
00:02:05.960 to get the Mount Rushmore back, the National Park back to, I believe it was Blackfoot, Blackfoot or Sioux.
00:02:14.840 Right. And why, you know, what are your concerns about this movement specifically?
00:02:22.640 I think it's racialist. Generally, they want to kick out people who own the land,
00:02:28.060 anybody they identify as several colonialists. Theoretically, it would also include tribes that,
00:02:33.420 other tribes. Interesting. So these, these advocates, you argue, are, are advocating for
00:02:43.120 ethno-nationalism and racial nationalism and, and taking land, you know, taking land for their
00:02:49.040 own people. Are there indigenous voices that oppose this?
00:02:54.100 If there are, I can't name any offhand. No.
00:02:57.180 So, so it seems to be quite prevalent, at least, you know, this, this, this idea has,
00:03:03.120 has a lot of influence among indigenous activists.
00:03:07.580 Yes, I think so. Especially at a grassroots level, there are some academics who support the
00:03:11.780 movement, but it's a, is a populist movement.
00:03:16.140 In your opinion, you know, we, we've talked about some of the more hardcore indigenous activism
00:03:21.380 that, that clearly is anti-Canadian, right? They, they label Canada, a settler colonial,
00:03:27.920 a colonialist state. They, they, they are demeaning towards Canadians, labeling us as settlers.
00:03:34.680 You know, just to be blunt about this, do these activists hate Canada?
00:03:40.660 I think so. I mean, if they call Canada genocidal enterprise, how can you not hate such a state?
00:03:46.520 And, and so this idea, right, this idea that, you know, Canada's genocidal, it seems as though,
00:03:53.960 Michael, they're trying to undermine Canada's existence and, and basically argue that Canada has,
00:04:00.760 has no, no basis to exist as a country because we've been built on genocide, right? We've been
00:04:06.760 built on, on colonialism. Is the idea that they're trying to tear down this country and, and perhaps
00:04:12.120 rebuild it into something else? Yeah, I, I entirely agree. I think the first step for the
00:04:16.780 aboriginal, aboriginal nationalism is delegitimize Canada and then worry about the fine details of
00:04:22.380 creating a new nation state. And is it, is it just so politically dangerous for politicians to stand
00:04:28.800 up to this? Um, or, or, or is it that politicians look at it and say, oh, this is quite fringe. You know,
00:04:34.060 we're not going to, we're not going to waste political capital opposing this. I say that because
00:04:38.400 I believe it was an NDP member of parliament, Leah Gazan, who, um, in 2022 put forward a motion that
00:04:46.040 basically labeled Canada, a genocidal country, uh, labeled the residential school system, a genocide,
00:04:51.260 and it passed unanimously. Not a single conservative MP voted against that motion. I'm just curious. We're
00:04:58.400 like, is this, is this too politically dangerous for, for politicians to oppose and stand up to this
00:05:04.860 and say, no, we are absolutely legitimate. This is absurd. What these activists are saying.
00:05:10.940 Yeah. Yeah. I think it's definitely part of that. Um, politicians are afraid of the fallout.
00:05:16.540 If they say there was no genocide, then they get labeled a denialist and there's no political win
00:05:21.580 for any political party. Um, I think the Gazan's bill who is my MP by the way. Oh, is that right?
00:05:27.500 It was a catastrophe for Canada. I mean, I don't know how we ever come back from that. It'd be great
00:05:34.220 to see some party. We can't throw support for the bill, but that's not forthcoming at this point.
00:05:39.820 I agree. You know, it's one of those things that these motions are symbolic, but that symbolism
00:05:46.380 matters a lot. And for the Canadian government to, uh, to find itself guilty of genocide when the
00:05:52.460 evidence is not there to support it is shocking. Really. I couldn't agree more. There needs to be
00:05:57.340 more attention on this. I'd love it if the next government, um, you know, goes in and tries to
00:06:02.620 reverse that motion going forward. You know, in this article, you draw parallels between the land
00:06:07.660 back movement and Hamas in Palestine because of their direct support. In many cases, many of these
00:06:14.060 indigenous activists openly supporting Hamas. This, this to me is the most dangerous part.
00:06:19.660 Uh, absolutely. Uh, after October 7th, a lot of movements characterized, uh, the Hamas attacked
00:06:26.140 as decolonization. Um, that's kind of an umbrella term, but it can mean that kind of barbaric violence.
00:06:33.820 Right. And so I, I guess, I guess you could play it out this way, right? If, if, if that's what
00:06:39.500 decolonization means in their eyes, these indigenous activists, what, what happened on October 7th,
00:06:46.220 and they use the term decolonization in Canada to advocate for their own means,
00:06:51.580 I guess the, I guess it would logically play out that they believe what happened in October
00:06:55.660 and October 7th was justified as a means of, of, of fighting back against settler colonialists.
00:07:01.500 The same thing they accuse Canadians of being, I mean, that is insanity. Surely that, that should be,
00:07:07.500 be a major concern from, from most Canadians, you would think. Uh, I, I would hope so. And at that,
00:07:13.420 at that point, I wonder if some politicians just think it is a fringe movement, try and be dismissive
00:07:17.740 of it. I, I think that's a little dangerous. I, I, I think it's a very volatile movement, very volatile
00:07:23.740 politic should not be underestimated. And I guess, you know, it, it means that these people would be
00:07:29.660 willing to use violence to achieve their own, uh, their, their own ambitions to achieve that ethno
00:07:36.940 state that they're trying to get right. I think there's a great potential for that. Um, one blessing
00:07:43.420 we have accidentally is that it's not organized yet. Uh, God help us if it ever does get that kind
00:07:48.140 of organization. Absolutely. We we've seen, we've seen confrontations and violent confrontations at
00:07:54.940 that between police, the state in Canada and indigenous people. You brought up the Oka crisis.
00:08:01.340 Um, we've seen it also in Caledonia in the early 2000s. We saw a little bit during the Wet'suwet'en
00:08:07.900 protests. What do you think? What do you think the Canadian government, perhaps a new Canadian
00:08:13.900 government, as it appears, this one is, uh, on their last sort of their last few months? What
00:08:18.860 do you think needs to be done to try to mend the relationship between indigenous Canadians
00:08:24.380 and the Canadian government? It doesn't, in my opinion, look as though where we're going is
00:08:28.060 sustainable. It's not sustainable. I, I, I'm afraid Canada has got itself into a point where they're,
00:08:34.940 they can't come back from it. They can't, they can't diffuse this. Uh, I'm really afraid. Uh,
00:08:41.660 if I was, you know, probably if I don't know what he can say about this,
00:08:45.180 I'm hopefully he's thinking of something, but I don't know what that is at this point.
00:08:49.500 You know, I, I, um, we talk a lot about the residential school, uh, debate, uh, and, and the
00:08:56.780 idea that there were these 215 bodies that have never been discovered and the damage, in my opinion,
00:09:02.140 that has done for indigenous and non-indigenous relations. A lot of Canadians look at that story and
00:09:08.220 say, well, there's no evidence to back that up. And yet we were, we were kind of beat over the
00:09:12.060 head with this story for years and it's left a really, it left a big hole. But I look at the
00:09:17.980 situation with indigenous Canadians and, and I do feel a lot of sympathy there. The amount of crime
00:09:23.660 that takes place inside of these reserves and off reserve, the domestic violence that has taken place.
00:09:30.380 Clearly, whatever we were trying to do as, as the Canadian, whatever the Canadian government was
00:09:35.260 trying to do over the past several decades, the results have not worked as something I think
00:09:40.620 new needs to happen. And I'm hoping, you know, you live in Winnipeg where there is a much larger
00:09:45.260 indigenous population. There is where I live in Toronto. What does the situation look like
00:09:49.740 on a day-to-day basis in your city? Do you see a lot of, a lot of poverty in the indigenous community
00:09:54.700 and a lot of crime in the indigenous community in Winnipeg?
00:09:57.100 Yeah, massively. It's, it's, it's kind of the moose in the room that nobody wants to talk about.
00:10:02.540 It is, it's gotten so bad that some people are starting to become brave enough to discuss
00:10:07.980 the obvious demographic. There is a lot of indigenous crime. Like if you, a lot of the encampments
00:10:13.340 downtown, it's mostly indigenous. Now we can pretend that's not the case or try to rationalize this,
00:10:20.140 something to do with colonialism. I, I think the problems go way back to not,
00:10:26.780 just, well, the section 25, uh, sorry, section 35 of the constitution, making a, a different, uh,
00:10:33.660 aboriginal rights, creating a whole different sort of area for, uh, a special class of people.
00:10:39.660 Yeah. Well, that's another thing too, right? If the Indian act, um, that's, people are now talking
00:10:45.420 about, you know, abolishing the Indian act or trying to somehow rewrite this because whatever,
00:10:50.380 whatever those rules are, um, you know, it is, it has not resulted in, in, in better,
00:10:56.380 in a better quality of life, it appears. You mentioned that Leah Gazan is your MP and Leah Gazan
00:11:02.300 is, is really becoming notorious in Canada for a radical stance on many of these issues. Um, you know,
00:11:09.340 pushing these genocide motions, uh, you know, pushing for criminalize, criminalizing residential
00:11:14.860 school denialism. Does Leah Gazan talk about indigenous crime? Not that I know of every now
00:11:21.020 and then I get flyers from her as a constituent, but she never mentioned that. So, so she's not
00:11:26.380 really interested in trying to, um, raise the alarm about her own community having these issues.
00:11:33.980 There's no, there's no, there's no real leadership that is saying, look, we need to kind of figure this
00:11:38.860 out. Um, and we need to call our own people out for some of the, some of this crime, some of these issues.
00:11:44.860 I think Gazan is ideologically committed and will not speak about the, the Aboriginal community in
00:11:50.860 those regards. If, if anything, she's going to say it's a false colonization, intergenerational trauma,
00:11:56.300 you know, the list goes on of things more or less white he's done to the, you know, Indians.
00:12:02.380 Well, let me ask you this, you know, you, you're not very optimistic about the future of indigenous,
00:12:07.420 non-indigenous relations. I don't blame you. I think as you've written in the article and,
00:12:12.300 and as has been discussed, it appears as though the situation is bad. What do you think happens
00:12:17.100 regardless of whoever takes over the government? What, what do you, what do you think happens in
00:12:21.180 10 years with this movement? Let's say they do get organized. Do you predict violence in the next 10
00:12:26.140 years? I, yeah. One of my worst nightmares is, is a riot downtown Winnipeg. Some incident happens like
00:12:33.020 a police shooting of a native, and then there's a another blockade on Portage of Maine that just becomes
00:12:37.500 violent from, you know, just by accident. And, you know, we, we've seen, you know, police,
00:12:43.900 police kind of get, get nervous to interact in those instances. They, they, they are concerned
00:12:48.060 about how their actions might be used to justify more violence, more riots. It, it, it, it does seem
00:12:55.020 to me to be a big concern. I will say the first time I, I heard about Landback was part of this idea
00:13:01.580 the, the, the Landback Lane, 1492 Landback Lane, I believe it's called, in Caledonia, just probably
00:13:07.980 two hours south of Toronto. And, uh, they were, they were involved in the toppling of the Egerton
00:13:14.940 Ryerson statue while I was a student at Ryerson University. They taunted our student club with the
00:13:19.820 head of Egerton Ryerson statue on a, on a pike. Um, and they basically, they were, they were celebrating
00:13:25.260 the fact that they, they had done this and nobody stopped them. The police didn't stop them. Nobody
00:13:31.420 got in their way. Why, why do you think it is that some of these activists appear to have, uh, appear
00:13:37.980 to be able to do whatever they want to do, but the police don't seem willing to actually stop them.
00:13:43.980 Uh, that's a head scratcher. I think it's just maybe the police are afraid of the political fallout.
00:13:48.540 Uh, in Winnipeg, we saw, you know, a similar situation on, I believe it was July, well, Canada
00:13:53.900 day, 2021, where they toppled statues on the legislative grounds, hundreds of them, police
00:13:59.020 stood by and just watched. There, there are no arrests from that event. Um, I think it was a terrible
00:14:05.020 signal to the rest of the city that these activists, you know, militants really can get
00:14:11.500 away with whatever they want. There's no pushback. Let me ask you about your premier,
00:14:16.060 Wab Canu. I will have to say he's quite a good order. He knows how to talk. He, you know, he,
00:14:21.420 he knows how to, how to play the politics game for sure. But he also, uh, what is his stance on these
00:14:27.260 issues? Is, is, is he more of that radical, uh, activist when it comes to indigenous issues or is
00:14:34.220 he more of a moderate? Uh, I think mostly he's an opportunist. He'll flip flop depending in which
00:14:40.300 way the winds are blowing. Um, I personally, I can't recall any statement he made regarding the
00:14:45.260 statue toppling on July 1st, 2021. Do you think, do you think that he would be, uh,
00:14:54.460 you think that he would, he would be much more sympathetic to a violent indigenous led riot
00:15:01.020 in the name of land back in Manitoba? Um, or do you think that he would, he would look at the
00:15:06.140 situation and say, as premier, I have to get this under control. Like my concern, you know,
00:15:10.460 is that maybe he's sympathetic to that idea and he actually views Canada as a, as a settler colonial
00:15:16.860 state. Do you get that impression as, as someone who, as someone who lives in his province?
00:15:23.420 I'm a little concerned that he's an activist first and foremost, and you know, Manitoba comes secondary
00:15:29.980 for him. Um, he's a hard guy to read that way. And I think he'll just change his opinions on things
00:15:36.620 depending on which way the winds wind blows. Yeah. Well, I, I will say, you know, he, I think it was
00:15:41.900 during D day, the D day anniversary or in the lead up to a remembrance day, he spoke quite, uh, quite
00:15:49.020 well about the importance of, of the military and Canada and our story as a country. I was surprised
00:15:54.300 about that because as someone not who doesn't live in his province, I thought this guy strikes me as a
00:16:00.060 classic NDP activist politician who, who, you know, plays these games and, and demeans the country.
00:16:06.060 Um, why do you, let me ask you this. Why do you think it is that, that these issues today are,
00:16:12.700 are being, you know, litigated and advocated for at, at, at sort of a larger volume,
00:16:19.340 a louder volume than, than they have been in the past? Why is this coming up now?
00:16:24.220 I think part of it has to do with the, you know, the president of federal government,
00:16:27.820 Trudeau is very sympathetic towards these things. I think he sees there's a lot of political capital
00:16:32.140 he can make off for promoting those issues. Um, I, I, I think activists and Aboriginal activists
00:16:39.420 just see this as a great opportunity for them to say anything, do anything.
00:16:43.580 Rejecting a $40 billion child welfare package, for instance, like that's, those numbers are
00:16:48.780 astronomical and they rejected it. Like, you know, sky's the limit as far as they're concerned.
00:16:53.340 And this may be a little speculation, but you brought up land back. You, you, you, you've
00:17:00.060 connected this movement to Hamas and, and some of the, the violence that we've seen in the Middle East
00:17:06.940 with the church burnings across our country. Do you think that perhaps this is, this is part of
00:17:13.660 the, this land back may be part of that, uh, that, that string of church burnings? I know
00:17:18.860 the question is speculative, but I feel like I have to ask. Yeah, I've definitely, I think there's
00:17:24.620 a sort of a, a general militancy that comes with it. Burning churches is a politically symbolic act.
00:17:30.700 You know, it's, it's really, especially since the church is blamed for sailing Canada,
00:17:35.980 it's a way of seeking retribution symbolically and physically.
00:17:40.380 Well, I mean, if they could, if they, if it is connected, I think that would,
00:17:45.420 that would send a loud message to Canadians who are not sympathetic with this idea,
00:17:49.980 as you rightly point out of, of really a, a racialist, ethno-nationalist perspective
00:17:54.780 from a lot of these activists. And, uh, I, I hope as I'm sure you do, Michael, that, uh,
00:18:00.860 we can, we can hear some indigenous voices speak out against this because, um, it is deeply
00:18:06.940 concerning, uh, what they are, what they say they're going to do. Uh, we'll leave it there,
00:18:11.260 but the article in the C2C journal, which is linked to the description of this video is
00:18:16.220 the indigenous land back movement, a landmine for Canadians. And our guest, Michael Melanson
00:18:23.180 is the author. You can find that article in the description of this video. Michael,
00:18:27.020 thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me.