Juno News - Drive-in pastor speaks out as prosecutors decide whether to lay social distancing charges

00:00:00.000 I want to talk about this story that we touched on on Monday that really struck a nerve with

00:00:10.180 a lot of people, myself included, and that was the police stakeout in Elmer, Ontario

00:00:15.480 at the Church of God where Pastor Henry Hildebrand oversaw a service in the parking lot, a drive-in

00:00:23.920 parking lot service where all the cars would tune into the sermon on an FM radio and listen

00:00:29.680 to the church service the way they normally would except instead of doing what many churches

00:00:34.400 like my own are doing with having Zoom calls and Facebook streams and all that, they were

00:00:39.120 doing it live and not in the flesh necessarily but live and in the car which I thought was

00:00:44.840 a fantastic way to have the sense of community that church gives and also maintain social

00:00:50.440 distance.

00:00:51.180 Well, Elmer, Ontario Police had a different idea.

00:00:54.540 They were filming every car going in.

00:00:56.720 They were filming the service and now have handed it over to the Crown prosecutors and

00:01:02.380 the Crown is now reviewing the evidence, which means watching a church service, which I guess

00:01:06.980 can't hurt them, and then decides whether they will advance this by laying charges or not

00:01:13.220 or by directing police to lay charges, which is just so asinine.

00:01:16.880 I mean, the title of my show the other day was Criminalizing Church because that's really

00:01:21.260 what's happening here.

00:01:22.180 And the one police officer had said people will be held accountable and they were saying

00:01:27.540 just because no one laid a ticket on Sunday doesn't mean that we won't down the road.

00:01:31.840 So I find this to be just horrendous and such an overreach and I want to talk about this

00:01:36.320 in a bit more depth with the pastor who's presiding over these drive-in services from the Church

00:01:41.420 of God in Elmer, Ontario.

00:01:42.820 Pastor Henry Hildebrandt joins me on the line now.

00:01:45.780 Pastor, thanks very much for your time today.

00:01:48.060 Thank you so much for having me.

00:01:49.300 So these are so difficult, these times that we're living in, for churches, for all organizations

00:01:55.540 and institutions now.

00:01:56.880 And I know that a lot of organizations are finding their own ways to adapt electronically.

00:02:01.720 Why not do that?

00:02:03.400 Why not do the Zoom services or the Facebook streaming?

00:02:06.500 Why do this parking lot drive-in service?

00:02:09.660 Well, it seems to me that we're not alone because all over the world, not just in Canada,

00:02:14.300 but all over the world, you see there's a rapid, rapid moving towards rather doing it.

00:02:21.800 It's when you have the visual, it makes all the difference.

00:02:25.920 It's one thing to sit at home and hearing somebody somewhere, not knowing where they are,

00:02:31.700 or you come to the parking lot and you see the person, you see the action.

00:02:35.460 I mean, after all, when we preach, half of our preaching is by actions, right?

00:02:40.260 Yeah.

00:02:40.560 So I guess, though, there is an element of this where a lot of people are going to think

00:02:45.060 this is just about rabble-rousing.

00:02:46.900 Is it about that, or is there something more fundamental in the service that you're doing here?

00:02:52.560 There's something very, very fundamental here, very fundamental.

00:02:55.840 And that is that when you see that the liquor store is essential and church is not, that is serious.

00:03:06.580 It's an interesting point you bring up there, because when the Ontario order went in initially

00:03:11.480 and we saw the list of all the businesses that were essential, I mean, there were very few that

00:03:16.100 weren't essential.

00:03:17.160 And it is interesting that people waiting in a line in a grocery store, waiting in a line

00:03:22.180 in a Costco, where there's similar exposure to what you could replicate in a church, you

00:03:27.300 could put the same spacing there, that the two are, from a health perspective, very similar,

00:03:32.320 but from a legal perspective now or not.

00:03:35.440 Exactly, exactly.

00:03:36.400 And that's exactly where we should be right now.

00:03:38.920 It's exactly where we should be, is we should be in our church buildings and space like they

00:03:45.660 want us to do it.

00:03:47.200 But we are left far behind, and that's what troubles me extremely very much.

00:03:53.560 Okay, so you raise an important point there.

00:03:55.300 This isn't because you don't agree with the importance of social distance, or because you

00:04:00.580 don't agree with the seriousness of the pandemic.

00:04:03.880 I see what they're saying, I listen to what they're saying, and I want to cooperate far fully.

00:04:10.680 Because you said in a press release that went out yesterday that no laws were broken and

00:04:15.400 all safety guidelines were followed.

00:04:17.500 Did you get legal advice on this before you did these drive-in services, or at least before

00:04:22.280 the story blew up like it did last weekend?

00:04:25.840 Well, we were there, we started, you know, at first was where the 50 people were still

00:04:31.260 allowed, and then it went down further, and then five people and whatnot.

00:04:34.520 So then we had these drive-in services, and the police came and checked it up, and they

00:04:41.780 said, all good.

00:04:42.960 So the police actually were at the previous services and raised no issues, and this is,

00:04:50.500 I think, the one last Sunday, the third, as I understand it.

00:04:52.860 But police had been to the first two and flagged no concerns.

00:04:56.520 They were there for the first two, checked it up, because obviously they have to respond

00:05:00.280 if the call comes in.

00:05:01.720 They came, and they found no breaking of the law in any shape or form, and they said, enjoy.

00:05:08.120 So it was all good until this last one.

00:05:10.220 So why now?

00:05:12.040 Why change?

00:05:12.720 Because the messaging that we saw from the police in the National Post, in the London

00:05:16.840 Free Press, that one line that really sends chills down me is, people will be held accountable,

00:05:22.380 as though some mass subversion of the law has taken place here.

00:05:26.360 Why has the tone changed from those first two services to the one most recently?

00:05:30.700 So the police had no problem with it whatsoever.

00:05:34.200 Like we said, they were there before.

00:05:36.400 But why that all of a sudden changed was because of the Facebook postings that people do, and

00:05:43.100 we all know how much value, how much weight they carry.

00:05:47.040 But anyway, so they responded to that, and the police thought that there was so many calls

00:05:54.540 that came in.

00:05:55.160 I think it was 15, so they thought that that was enough reason to shut us down, I guess.

00:06:00.780 And I don't know if you know who the complainants are, but you're convinced that these were

00:06:04.300 just people that saw it on Facebook, not even people necessarily that were in the community

00:06:08.700 and impacted by this, or drove by and saw it firsthand.

00:06:11.700 Yes, the chief admitted to that, that it was that.

00:06:17.560 So people were driving by and making assumptions, and we followed that all Sunday afternoon,

00:06:24.020 exactly, saw exactly what was happening.

00:06:25.680 So we were not surprised when the police said that.

00:06:29.220 We knew exactly where he got his information from was Facebook, because people said, well,

00:06:34.540 there was nobody in the car.

00:06:36.400 We were all in our cars.

00:06:37.900 The building was closed.

00:06:39.480 So that was an assumption they made, and that's what the police chief based his information

00:06:44.720 off of the, I guess we could say, fake news of the Facebook.

00:06:49.140 And I noticed that you even had signs telling people to put their windows up.

00:06:52.840 So even if there was a possibility that someone would say the windows being down posed a risk,

00:06:56.760 you seem to have gotten ahead of that one.

00:06:58.560 We were ahead of that one.

00:07:00.160 We were very, very careful.

00:07:03.020 We were actually the safest, safest place in town at that point.

00:07:06.600 Let me ask you then about where you see this going, because the story in CTV as of this

00:07:13.820 morning is that the Crown is assessing whether you've broken the law or not.

00:07:17.640 There's a lawyer quoted in the story who says, because no one got out of their cars, it's

00:07:21.740 not a gathering in his view.

00:07:23.280 But I think the one thing we've learned in the last few weeks is that a lot of people

00:07:26.860 are making this up as they go.

00:07:28.360 So I don't know if anyone knows the actual definition here.

00:07:31.140 But is there a part of you that is wanting to get ticketed just so you can fight it and

00:07:35.900 prove the point?

00:07:36.820 Or do you just want everyone to leave you alone so you can go back to doing these Sunday

00:07:40.780 drive-ins as long as that's what's required?

00:07:43.180 Well, I think I proved my point that the first few weeks that we were there, we didn't try

00:07:48.060 to get any attention.

00:07:49.280 The police came and they said, enjoy, it looks good.

00:07:51.580 So we were just happy to continue right on.

00:07:54.880 It wasn't us that caused this.

00:07:56.720 It was the police that said, no, no more.

00:07:58.980 Before it was good.

00:07:59.760 Now it's no good.

00:08:01.340 And like I said, there's many, there's other provinces, a number of them in Canada, there's

00:08:05.700 other countries in Europe and others that are going this way.

00:08:10.020 It's just, you can't have proper fellowship sitting at home and just listening to someone.

00:08:15.160 You can do it for a time or two, but that's not holding through.

00:08:19.420 We need to see one another.

00:08:21.660 We need to have that fellowship, if you will.

00:08:25.460 Yeah, that is such an important part.

00:08:27.260 And people don't understand if they aren't from within the church, I think, the importance

00:08:32.000 of that.

00:08:32.440 I mean, people get speaking with their friends and stuff.

00:08:34.800 And my church has moved to a lot of Bible studies online and fellowships online.

00:08:38.960 And you can replicate some of that community, but it's not the same thing.

00:08:43.520 It's not the same thing as shaking a hand, as breaking bread, and doing all of these other

00:08:47.340 things that are as much a part of church as the sermon.

00:08:49.740 That's exactly it.

00:08:51.760 You just cannot do it.

00:08:53.420 And that's why I'm saying this issue now goes far, far beyond me or our church.

00:09:00.640 This affects all of us.

00:09:02.760 And when we put the police in front of the church building to make sure nobody enters,

00:09:08.920 but we have the liquor store open, that to me is, now we're talking, this is serious.

00:09:15.500 It's not about me or our church.

00:09:17.300 It's about religious freedom.

00:09:19.140 And that's very, very serious, where we are now.

00:09:22.200 When you mention religious freedom, I guess I have to ask if you think that this controversy

00:09:26.460 is only taking place because you are a pastor and this is a church, or do you think this

00:09:31.020 is just a general overzealousness from law enforcement that would happen in any circumstance?

00:09:36.740 Well, I think they took it for granted that they could do with that whatever they wanted

00:09:41.360 to, that the church people would be glad to just stay at home.

00:09:45.160 And they definitely found one in me that is not happy to stay home, and the same with our

00:09:50.140 people, and the same with many, many, many other people.

00:09:55.140 Church is essential to us.

00:09:57.600 The Bible says man shall not live by bread alone.

00:10:00.320 So we don't live just off of the grocery store.

00:10:02.680 We have to have our spiritual food.

00:10:04.600 Have you had a discussion or a thought process, or have you reached a decision, if you get

00:10:10.200 a ticket, as to whether you will pay it or whether you will fight it and make this bigger

00:10:14.440 point, if necessary, in court?

00:10:16.720 I am not concerned about that at this point at all.

00:10:20.580 We have tremendous, tremendous support coming in from all over.

00:10:26.340 I am not worried about that.

00:10:27.760 That's not my concern.

00:10:29.380 I want to make sure that I, as a pastor, fulfill my duty in feeding the people.

00:10:34.060 And do my best I can, the way we're going about it.

00:10:37.360 But they'll have to figure all of that out.

00:10:39.660 I'm a preacher.

00:10:40.440 I'm not a lawyer.

00:10:42.160 Let me ask you here something, Pastor.

00:10:44.020 How big is your parking lot?

00:10:45.400 Because it sounds like there are a lot of people that might have the only opportunity

00:10:49.460 to have this type of service by driving to Elmer on Sunday, or in a couple of weeks,

00:10:54.220 perhaps.

00:10:54.640 So can you accommodate the influx?

00:10:56.560 If a lot of people say, hey, you know what?

00:10:58.220 I'm not getting this anywhere else.

00:10:59.420 I'm going to check them out.

00:11:00.840 So what we're going to do is we're actively looking into finding a huge place, huge parking

00:11:05.600 lot somewhere, putting up big screens.

00:11:07.660 People are calling from all over the place.

00:11:09.440 People are coming for this Sunday from hours away.

00:11:12.520 They said they feel the same way as we do.

00:11:14.260 We cannot do.

00:11:15.240 We cannot do without gathering at least sometimes.

00:11:18.160 So we're going to accommodate that.

00:11:19.780 We're going to do what we can.

00:11:21.300 Our parking lot, I'm not sure how many it holds.

00:11:23.580 It's probably about 70 cars or so, I would think.

00:11:26.860 So we're going to do, we're looking into to see what we can do, where we can accommodate

00:11:30.340 people, because it goes far, far beyond 70 cars at this point.

00:11:34.940 People from all over want to attend the service because that's just the nature of your heart,

00:11:41.700 your soul desires to be fed.

00:11:43.940 Like I said, man shall not live by bread alone.

00:11:45.780 So people want to be fed and they want to gather somewhere.

00:11:49.440 That's just part of it.

00:11:50.260 And we'll do it in the safest way possible, just like we have done.

00:11:53.580 I think there's a drive-in movie theater not far from you.

00:11:56.760 And I was actually wondering a couple of weeks ago if they might be allowed to reopen,

00:12:00.080 but that might be your way forward here to accommodate this, because I'm noticing that

00:12:05.300 there are a lot of people, even people that aren't particularly religious, this has just

00:12:09.560 been anecdotal on my part, that are really starting to ask a lot of questions.

00:12:14.040 And I think whenever there's a mass event like this, it does shake people's, not shake

00:12:18.840 people's faith in a negative way, but I think can shake people's faith in a very positive

00:12:22.580 way.

00:12:23.580 And I'm wondering if you're seeing that, people reaching out to you that, you know,

00:12:26.520 aren't even necessarily religious, and not even necessarily because of the drive-ins

00:12:30.640 you've been doing, saying, you know what, I have questions right now and I'm not sure

00:12:34.860 that the world in its earthly sense is answering them.

00:12:37.760 That's exactly it.

00:12:38.760 That's exactly it.

00:12:39.760 So we are taking all things into consideration right now to see where we could accommodate

00:12:44.760 the people, because there's, as a pastor, as you can imagine, there's absolutely no way

00:12:49.260 that we're going to turn people away.

00:12:50.760 I realize that they don't want us to do it, but I also on the other hand clearly see our

00:12:56.440 rights to do it if we do it within the confines of what the thing is that we're dealing with.

00:13:01.920 So we're looking at all opportunities, see which way we could do it.

00:13:06.520 Like I said, there's a strong, strong support for it.

00:13:10.260 Not just support, but people are flocking in wanting to hear because it's just not normal

00:13:14.760 that we would cut it out like this.

00:13:17.640 And I know that we don't know how long this is going to last, how long the lockdown is

00:13:22.540 going to go on.

00:13:23.380 We've heard in the last few days a little bit of a discussion about, they call reopening

00:13:27.960 the economy, and I find it interesting because no one's talking about reopening churches, which

00:13:32.280 I would say are not part of the economy per se, but you're planning on doing this, it

00:13:36.420 sounds like, as long as you need to.

00:13:39.340 That's exactly what troubles me so much.

00:13:41.660 When churches are put down as non-essential, they are number one.

00:13:47.880 If we don't have God, we have nothing.

00:13:50.220 If we lose God, we lose everything.

00:13:52.680 So absolutely our church is essential, so we must, they must come first, and then we

00:13:58.820 see how we can accommodate everything else.

00:14:00.960 I know not everybody would agree, but that is the way it is.

00:14:04.880 Joining me on the line, Pastor of the Church of God in Elmer, Ontario, Pastor Henry Hildebrandt.

00:14:09.720 Pastor, thank you so much for your time.

00:14:11.100 God bless you, and best of luck in your future drive-ins.

00:14:14.360 Gladly, Don.

00:14:15.260 Lord bless you.

00:14:16.120 Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:14:18.200 Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.

00:14:23.400 Thank you.

Juno News - April 30, 2020

Drive-in pastor speaks out as prosecutors decide whether to lay social distancing charges

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