Juno News - Elections Canada is investigating pro-lifers

00:00:00.000 So if you've ever volunteered on a political campaign, you know that volunteers are the

00:00:09.820 lifeblood of them. I mean, as someone who's run for office, I can tell you firsthand,

00:00:14.080 even though I didn't win, you don't get anywhere without volunteers. And when people talk about

00:00:18.920 their frustrations with the politicians that are representing them, the big question is,

00:00:24.520 okay, what have you done about it? Have you helped out on a campaign? Have you tried to

00:00:27.480 get someone elected? And there's a fantastic group in Canada called Right Now, which has done

00:00:32.720 exactly that. It's made by two pro-lifers, Alyssa Golob and Scott Hayward, who, and I've known both

00:00:38.500 of them for years, frustrated that pro-lifers weren't really moving the goalpost down the road

00:00:43.640 and having more people represented in politics and in parliament. So they said, let's connect

00:00:48.540 volunteers with pro-life candidates, pro-life volunteers with pro-life candidates. And I,

00:00:54.300 in the interest of disclosure, had support from Right Now volunteers when I ran for office a couple

00:00:58.800 of years ago. And I don't blame them for my loss. Don't worry, Scott. But the fact of the matter is

00:01:04.340 they are now being targeted by the Commissioner of Canada elections for possibly violating election

00:01:10.000 law for helping candidates in the federal election in 2019. We haven't heard of anything like this being

00:01:16.280 directed towards the many left-wing groups like labour unions, for example, that were doing very

00:01:21.320 similar things for left-wing parties. Scott Hayward, one of the co-founders of Right Now, joins me on

00:01:26.460 the line now. Scott, good to talk to you. Thanks for coming on today. Yeah, thanks for having us,

00:01:30.600 Andrew. Really appreciate it. So let's be very frank here. The third party rules, I know,

00:01:36.500 changed the way that a lot of organizations had to navigate just election law. You complied with all

00:01:43.460 of these regulations. What is the problem right now? Yeah, so the amendments to the Canada Elections Act

00:01:50.320 came in basically through the tail end of the last Parliament late spring of 2019. So we are already

00:01:57.060 actually involved in getting ready and getting volunteers ready to actually participate in the

00:02:04.080 43rd general federal election when the legislation came in. So we took a look at it to make sure that

00:02:09.200 we were in compliance of it. And I mean, we don't know what the allegation says. Elections Canada won't

00:02:14.500 reveal that to us or who made the allegation or the basis of the allegation. But what little we know

00:02:20.720 from Elections Canada is that the allegation essentially states that we violated the Canada

00:02:26.980 Elections Act by providing volunteers to pro-life candidates, winnable pro-life candidates.

00:02:33.480 So the main crux of the issue, I suppose, is that within the Canada Elections Act, it says that

00:02:40.160 a registered third party cannot provide non-monetary contributions to political parties or to candidates

00:02:47.760 in our case. But back in the summer, when I took a look at the new legislation, it specifically said

00:02:54.900 under the definition of non-monetary contributions that volunteers were excluded from that definition,

00:03:01.320 meaning that a third party could provide volunteers to, you know, candidates. And so I reached out to

00:03:07.480 Elections Canada back in the summer of 2019 to make sure that this was fine, what we're about to engage

00:03:13.500 into. They got back to me and they didn't give me a definitive answer, but heavily indicated that it

00:03:18.840 should be all right. It seemed to be okay by reading the legislation for what it is. It seemed to be okay

00:03:24.160 by reading through their 70-whatever page guide for registered third parties. And so we were quite

00:03:32.200 surprised when we received the letter in mid-February. And knowing that a lot of other organizations out

00:03:38.240 there, such as a number of unions, were engaging in same or similar things, we were, you know, quite

00:03:43.560 surprised that we received that letter and that they were investigating us. And I think that the two

00:03:49.320 real points of offense here, not only that you're being investigated for just engaging in the political

00:03:54.800 process, but that you have to defend yourself against an allegation that you're not quite clear on.

00:04:00.340 So I know that this letter I read in the National Post has compelled you to produce documentation.

00:04:05.880 Well, how do you even know what they're looking for if you're not seeing the scope of the

00:04:09.520 investigation? Yeah, precisely. It makes it very difficult to cooperate. So to give a bit of a

00:04:15.760 timeline to everyone out there, we received a letter in mid-February from Elections Canada saying

00:04:19.940 that these allegations were made and that they'd be opening up an investigation. They would not be

00:04:24.840 pursuing criminally and that and the conclusion that investigation could include monetary penalties

00:04:32.520 against right now. So they were asking for documentation on the allegation. So we said,

00:04:37.880 that's great. What is the allegation? So we can provide the documentation to defend ourselves against

00:04:42.600 the allegation. Also, are you looking into these other organizations such as a number of unions that are

00:04:48.840 basically doing the same or similar things and often cases went above and beyond what we did in terms of

00:04:54.280 providing, you know, in terms of providing support to a variety of candidates across the country.

00:05:01.080 Elections Canada got back to us, you know, late April, basically reiterating the same thing.

00:05:07.880 And then we got back to them the next day with the same kind of the same answer saying,

00:05:13.640 we're happy to cooperate, but we're needing to know, you know, what the allegation is,

00:05:18.440 who made the allegation and the basis of the allegation before we know what to provide you,

00:05:23.160 because we're not just going to give carte blanche to an outside organization of everything that's

00:05:27.480 within our organization. That's so, so important. And I know that Ezra Levant is facing something very

00:05:34.760 similar where he sat down with investigators and had no idea what it is they were actually looking for.

00:05:39.960 And I know other people have had similar frustrations with this investigative body.

00:05:44.920 I have to ask you, when they are investigating you, and you may not know the answer to this,

00:05:50.520 but is this just them checking off their box because they got a complaint? Or do they have

00:05:54.360 the ability to say when they receive a complaint, this is a nuisance, we're not going to advance it?

00:05:59.720 That I actually don't know. I don't know if Elections Canada has the ability to,

00:06:03.480 whether or not to decide they're going to pursue an investigation when an allegation is made by an

00:06:09.880 individual or by another registered third party or political party. I actually don't know the answer

00:06:15.000 to that. It seems to me by reading the letter that it was a decision of the commissioner to

00:06:21.320 to pursue an investigation. So I'm thinking there is a little bit of leeway there, but I don't 100% know

00:06:27.160 the answer. What is the impact if something like this proceeds in your view? Because I know that

00:06:34.120 there could be by-elections coming up, there could be another election at any point. And for any group,

00:06:39.400 not just yours, how do you take what's happening? Yeah, well, that's a very good question because I

00:06:45.240 think there's two different sets of what impacts are going to be. There's internally for our organization,

00:06:51.640 what the impact will be. And there's externally for our organization and everyone else. So

00:06:56.920 internally for our organization, we're small, but we're mighty. We have two people on staff. The

00:07:02.680 reason why we have two people on staff is because that's all we can afford. We were founded just over

00:07:07.640 four years ago. Since then we've had tremendous success, but we're an organization that brings

00:07:12.280 in just over $200,000 a year. We're not a multi-million dollar organization. So internally,

00:07:18.440 what this impact will have on us is making sure that we have good legal counsel. I'm a chart

00:07:24.440 professional accountant. I'm not a lawyer, nor is my colleague, the other co-founder. So we have to

00:07:29.480 retain good legal counsel. And if you want good legal counsel, that does come with a bit of a price,

00:07:34.680 which is fair enough. And if there are any monetary penalties set against us, and we'll decide what to

00:07:41.880 do at that point if it comes to that, there comes a real cost with that. So that's what happens to us

00:07:47.240 internally. Externally, if the decision by Electric Canada is that we are in fact in contravention of

00:07:53.160 the act, which I don't know how, given how the act is written, it will have a chilling effect. And I

00:07:57.880 agree with Andrew Scheer on that. I think it will have a chilling effect on not just our organization,

00:08:03.160 other pro-life organizations, but other organizations who might be pro-abortion,

00:08:07.240 other organizations that specifically only support one political party. So it could be unions supporting

00:08:13.400 you know, Liberals and NDP candidates or environmental groups supporting Green Party

00:08:18.040 candidates. It has a chilling effect right across Canada as to whether or not people actually want

00:08:24.520 to engage in the political process by knocking on doors for, you know, candidates that support their

00:08:29.640 values and support policies that they like. And I think that's a very dangerous road to go down in

00:08:35.080 a democracy. And it quickly leads to a country, you know, not really being a full democracy. So I think

00:08:40.920 it does have some quite, it could have some quite significant negative impacts both internally

00:08:47.480 and externally. And I obviously don't want to downplay the financial toll that this could take.

00:08:53.240 And I mean, just by virtue of fighting, it will take on right now. But I think that the bigger point

00:08:59.240 here, and I think you've touched on that very well, is that it's meant to shut people up. I mean,

00:09:03.560 worse than you having to fundraise to pay a penalty is you not being able to do the work that you set out

00:09:08.520 to do. Yeah, and we'll go down that road if it comes to like, we'll cross that bridge.

00:09:14.600 So it's really an Elections Canada Court right now as to what they're going to do with this.

00:09:20.920 I would not be surprised if they do come down with penalties and say, well, you were in violation of

00:09:26.840 the Act. I don't understand how any organization out there, whether they be a union, whether they be

00:09:31.880 pro-abortion, pro-life, an environmental group, the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, firearms groups,

00:09:38.520 I don't understand how any of our organizations can get involved politically. And if our organizations,

00:09:44.280 who represent the interests of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Canadians,

00:09:49.240 can get involved in the political process, then our democratic function as a country is really,

00:09:55.960 really going to go downhill, I think. Well, and the fact that the Act, as you understand it,

00:10:01.560 specifically excludes volunteers is the most important part here. There seems to be an

00:10:06.600 understanding with this that volunteers are the backbone of elections. And that's why if someone

00:10:12.120 volunteers on a campaign, it isn't something that's an in-kind contribution. It's not something

00:10:16.920 that has to be declared. It's just there. So the idea of even if a group's facilitating it, I don't think

00:10:23.160 it is changing it that much. I know that with my campaign and with other campaigns I've seen,

00:10:28.360 it's not all that uncommon for a group from a church or from some community organization all

00:10:33.160 band together and say, hey, we're going to go out and knock on doors. And that's not a gray area.

00:10:38.280 That's just how campaigns work. Yeah. And I think it's really important. Like you said, Andrew,

00:10:44.760 ask any candidate, regardless of political party who's ran for public office, how much they rely on

00:10:50.840 volunteers, specifically volunteers from various organizations and various groups out there,

00:10:57.240 that those candidates represent those values and represents those policy positions that those

00:11:04.600 particular groups find supportive. And that's how a lot of campaigns operate. Again, whether it's a

00:11:10.920 Conservative Party of Canada, Canada, Liberal Party of Canada, Canada, it doesn't really matter

00:11:14.920 what political party. They do, to a large extent, rely on a variety of groups and issue-based

00:11:21.000 organizations out there to provide volunteers for their campaigns in order for them to seek and win

00:11:28.600 public office. So what's the timeline that you have on this now, the next steps in this process with

00:11:34.520 the Commissioner of Canada elections? We really don't know. So we sent a letter dated April 23rd.

00:11:41.560 They said in their letter to us, dated the day before April 22nd, that they give us two weeks to

00:11:47.320 cooperate. And we sent a letter back the next day saying we'd like to cooperate,

00:11:51.400 but in order for us to cooperate, we need to know what we're cooperating with. We need to know what the

00:11:55.800 allegation says. And we haven't heard back from Elections Canada. So it's really in their court. I

00:12:01.640 have no idea what the timeline is. I don't think there's any timeline that's laid out in the Act or in

00:12:08.040 the regulations to the Act. So we're really in a dark place in that regard for the timeline.

00:12:15.080 Now, would your ideal scenario here be that they just kind of rip up the letters, rip up the file,

00:12:20.440 and pretend it never happened? Or are you looking for a fight just to kind of make that point,

00:12:24.840 that what you do and what groups like you do is not only important, but really essential to the

00:12:30.280 political process? I think that if they interpret the Act objectively and reasonably, the way is

00:12:37.880 written in the spirit of it, that this case would be closed already. And I think that would probably

00:12:43.320 be the best thing, both internally and externally, like the fight is already out there, the media,

00:12:47.960 such as yourself and others are already picking up on it. And if they don't pursue the case, then

00:12:52.520 obviously that would be an indication that the type of activities that we and other organizations

00:12:59.400 out there they're engaging in are within the confines of the Act that we're operating legally

00:13:04.680 within the Act. And that's probably the easiest, quickest, cleanest way for everyone to move forward

00:13:10.360 here. And just to be clear, there's no advertising component of this, as far as you know, because that

00:13:15.720 was the area of the third party rules that most people were focused on. And certainly that was the area

00:13:20.840 that I was paying attention to when we saw the rules come out in the first place.

00:13:24.760 Yeah, the big thing for creating the whole point of registered third parties for general federal

00:13:31.320 elections were with advertising for advertising, whether it be on Facebook, TV, newspapers,

00:13:37.240 all that sort of stuff. Our organization didn't engage in any advertising in the rip period.

00:13:42.120 So we didn't have to declare any. But there was a bunch of other things that we had to declare.

00:13:46.680 And we didn't spend a whole lot of money on the election. Our return is on the Elections Canada

00:13:52.280 website. It was under $10,000. So, you know, it was quite cumbersome. I'm not going to lie. It was

00:13:58.520 quite cumbersome to do the reports, to file the reports, to go through the reports, to go through

00:14:03.080 the Act, to go through the guide, which was more confusing than helpful. And I say that as a chartered

00:14:09.400 professional accountant, by the way, it's quite cumbersome for a lot of groups to go through all these,

00:14:14.600 you know, bureaucratic loops to just engage in the political process on behalf of the

00:14:20.040 hundreds of thousands of people that we represent. So yeah, it's interesting for the advertising,

00:14:25.320 because that's, to me, seemingly why all this stuff was brought in. But the side effect of it is that

00:14:32.120 it affects quite a few different organizations out there that aren't really that interested in

00:14:36.600 advertising when it comes to getting involved in federal elections.

00:14:39.960 Now, I know that you don't just deal with elections, general and by-elections,

00:14:45.240 but also internal races like nominations and leadership races. I just, before we wrap up here,

00:14:51.480 you're involved in the Conservative leadership race through looking at the candidates and talking

00:14:56.200 to them. If you want to give a plug to how people can find your information, I know a lot

00:14:59.640 would probably appreciate it.

00:15:00.680 Yeah. So with the Conservative Party of Canada leadership race, obviously one needs to be a

00:15:05.800 member of the party, which costs $15. And they have until May 15th. So a couple of days here

00:15:13.160 until midnight local time to purchase a membership. So I encourage all pro-lifers out there, whether you

00:15:17.800 normally vote for the Conservatives in an election or not, to get involved, to make sure that the pro-life

00:15:23.000 candidates who are running for the leadership race actually win, because that's the only way to vote

00:15:27.400 for them. So you can visit our website. It starts right now .ca. We have a tab there

00:15:32.680 called CPC Leadership 2020. It has all the information there for the leadership race,

00:15:38.440 timelines, how it works, how the point system works. But a cool thing that I think that we do is that

00:15:45.080 we interview all the candidates, or at least the ones that are willing to talk to us,

00:15:49.080 for the leadership race. And we interview them on kind of, you know, a little bit of personal stuff

00:15:52.920 about them individually, but also, you know, what they plan to do for our pro-life issues. So

00:15:59.400 their pro-life platform and policies, we have on their voting records from their time as a member

00:16:04.200 of parliament, or a member of provincial parliament, or whatever provincial legislature they've sat in,

00:16:08.840 as well as their winnability factor. You know, how many caucus members do they have supporting them?

00:16:12.920 Have they been, have a parliamentary leadership role, like a cabinet minister or speaker of the house?

00:16:18.760 You know, how big is their social media following? So we have all that together, and we weight it

00:16:23.880 together, have a little score system, come up with a score, and come up with a recommended

00:16:28.520 ranked ballot, because it's a ranked ballot system. So if you want more information on that and how to

00:16:32.360 get involved, that's the place to go. All right. Well, thank you for that. Co-founder of Right Now,

00:16:37.960 Scott Hayward joining me on the line. Best of luck fighting against the bureaucrats in this,

00:16:42.920 which is an important fight. I know we've said it, but it bears repeating, it's not just about you. I think

00:16:47.640 all groups and individuals that want to engage in the political process this affects. So thank you

00:16:52.760 very much, and all the best to you, Scott. Thanks, Andrew. Thanks for the opportunity.

00:16:56.920 Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show. Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.

Juno News - May 14, 2020

Elections Canada is investigating pro-lifers

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