00:07:58.000Now, just before we start, if I could just, I just want to make a brief statement that from now on for the balance of the week, we will be hearing from a number of senior government ministers, including the prime minister and the deputy prime minister.
00:08:21.120um the commission recognizes that this is exceptional and even more so as the house
00:08:28.720as i understand it is sitting so the latter fact the fact the house is sitting is such that
00:08:36.400uh it may require some accommodation for these witnesses in the event of votes the house of
00:08:43.440commons or events requiring that they respond to pressing needs so i just wanted to put that
00:08:50.560on the record so for parties it's also important that in the course of these examinations we not
00:08:58.320lose sight of the reason that they are here to testify that is the subject matter of this inquiry
00:09:06.320the examinations therefore must remain focused on this particularly in light of the limited time we
00:09:15.620have finally as I have insisted throughout I will continue to insist that the conduct of
00:09:24.740the public and indeed to the parties be respect respectful at all times which I'm sure everyone
00:09:32.960understands so i just wanted to to say that because it's it uh we're sort of entering another
00:09:39.680phase for the balance okay so with that introduction uh commission council
00:09:55.600thank you commissioner uh gordon cameron for commission council and the first uh witness in
00:10:02.400in this category of ministers is Minister Bill Blair.
00:10:10.120If you could take the stand and he will be sworn.
00:10:26.440Minister Blair, will you swear on a religious document
00:10:56.240Do you swear that the evidence to be given by you
00:10:58.520to this commission shall be the truth,
00:11:00.380whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god thank you
00:11:21.020good afternoon minister blair uh i'll begin just with some housekeeping some formalities
00:11:28.380uh and in particular what i'm going to ask you to do is recall that you had an interview uh with
00:11:36.140me and some of my colleagues on september 6th and uh for the record i'll note for parties that
00:11:43.180the summary of that interview is wts seven zeros uh 48 um now minister blair if you had a chance
00:11:52.220to review this witness summary that was prepared following your interview yes sir i have can you
00:11:57.660confirm that it's accurate and that you adopted as part of your evidence before this proceeding
00:12:01.980i can confirm that yes thank you now if we can just go through a little bit of background for
00:12:07.180those who aren't already familiar with your uh role in the federal government recently and before
00:12:13.100that um you were uh the minister of public safety from november 2019 to november to october 2021 is
00:12:23.900that correct yes sir and in october of 2021 you were appointed and this is a long title
00:12:31.500and it requires a bit of updating uh you were you were appointed as president of the queen's
00:12:36.460privy council now uh you will be the president of the king's privy council i take it and also
00:12:42.860uh as the minister of emergency preparedness is that right yes sir
00:12:47.180um now in the prime minister's mandate letters that is the letters that the prime minister writes
00:12:54.940for each of his ministers to describe what he expects from them during their tenure
00:13:01.340uh the prime minister assigned leadership responsibilities uh regarding public safety
00:13:09.100and emergency preparedness both to you uh minister blair uh and uh to minister mendocino
00:13:17.900and so the question is can you help us understand how that division works under the umbrella of
00:13:27.020the ministry of emergency preparedness and public safety yes sir as you noted earlier um i previously
00:13:35.900held the position of minister of public safety and emergency preparedness quite frankly the
00:13:41.440government recognized in in in the most recent past a significant increase in both the severity
00:13:46.900complexity and frequency of national emergencies taking place in this country and so a decision
00:13:52.780was made to bifurcate my my previous ministry um into the public safety which is a portfolio held
00:14:00.400by my colleague and friend, Minister Mendicino, and Minister of Emergency Preparedness, which
00:14:05.740is the portfolio that I am responsible for. Under that, I think there's a very clear delineation
00:14:10.740of responsibilities, but there's a very close alignment between the work that I do and that
00:14:15.560Minister Mendicino does. Mr. Mendicino is, for example, responsible under the Act for
00:14:20.820five different, you know, significant agencies in the federal government, including the RCMP,
00:14:27.400CVSA, CSIS, Corrections Canada, and the Parole Board.
00:14:31.040And he also has a number of other significant responsibilities within his own mandate.
00:14:34.500For myself, my responsibilities particularly pertain to ensuring that the government of Canada is prepared to respond effectively to all hazards and emergencies in this country,
00:14:47.160to improve the way in which the government prepares and also creates greater resiliency in the country about these events.
00:14:54.300Among the administrative processes I am also responsible for is I oversee requests for assistance that are received from the provinces and territories for assistance in the event of an emergency.
00:15:06.820If I could just, if you could try and be a little slower for the interpreters because they have to translate everything you say and you have a tendency to have a high output.
00:15:17.960Yes, sir. I'll certainly do my very best.
00:15:21.740and and i would appreciate the occasional reminder that i think mr cameron's quite
00:15:25.180prepared to provide um yeah the the scribes at the interview uh got lost after a few minutes
00:15:36.860of the interview um now if if that that's a helpful description minister blair of the division
00:15:44.700between uh the two uh parts of public safety and emergency preparedness here's a something that's
00:15:52.380more challenging for all of us is if you can describe for us your role as president of the
00:15:58.300king's privy council and how that uh what what role you play there i i'll remind you just as a
00:16:07.500place to start that among other things you chair the sse committee the safety security and
00:16:13.020emergencies committee but writ large can you describe that office and what responsibilities
00:16:18.700come with it there are within federal legislation certain um federal agencies such as the transportation
00:16:24.860safety board that is answers directly to the president of now the king's privy council but it
00:16:31.820also is important to recognize the very the close collaboration that exists between my responsibilities
00:16:38.540as the president of king's privy council and the work of of of of the of the privy council office
00:16:44.620in within the federal government um it it requires in addition to my responsibilities in in sharing
00:16:51.900for example the ssc committee the safety security and emergency committee a very close collaboration
00:16:57.100with the privy council office i i have for example within pco a deputy secretary ms bogdan i believe
00:17:05.580you've heard from who i work very closely with on on matters of emergency preparedness and with
00:17:10.700respect to other um cabinet related issues i work very closely with the deputy clerk mr ann as well
00:17:18.460right and something we'll come back to uh in a little bit of detail and a little later in this
00:17:26.620examination one of the functions of of your office includes handling requests for assistance what
00:17:34.380we've now learned to call rfas uh where somebody from a level of government lower than the federal
00:17:42.060government asks for the assistance of the federal government in some particular sphere can you tell
00:17:46.700us just broadly speaking how that works as we'll come to the one specific to the convoy in a minute
00:17:52.300but just broadly how that process works yes sir um there is a provision within our government
00:17:58.860for provinces and territories to make requests of our government for assistance for certain types
00:18:05.340of emergencies the the criteria is reasonably well established um in the past two years i've
00:18:11.340been responsible for um well since the beginning of the pandemic i've actually managed about 200
00:18:17.180requests for assistance that the government has received from our provincial and territorial
00:18:21.020partners these can take a number of different forms um it there were quite a number of them
00:18:25.900related to um the pandemic in particular but also in the in the advent of floods and fires
00:18:33.020the hurricanes that recently took place in atlantic canada all can result when when events
00:18:39.420exceed the capacity of the provinces and territories to manage it the rfa process allows
00:18:45.420them to reach out for assistance um and and and whatever we're able to provide it is my
00:18:52.140responsibility to arrange that much of that work is done with other federal departments public
00:18:56.620safety the department of national defense and others but to ensure that whatever federal
00:19:02.060supports can be provided to the provinces and territories we do that as expeditiously as
00:19:06.300possible and can you describe to me the level of of formality that that process follows
00:19:13.500and it's probably not the same in every case but sometimes it's a phone call perhaps followed up
00:19:18.540later by writing sometimes writing followed up later by a phone call but can you describe for
00:19:23.500the commissioner just how the process tends to take place in the example of a typical flood or
00:19:30.220hurricane in my experience sir and as i said we've done now a couple of hundred of these
00:19:34.460senior officials usually begin talking very quickly even in anticipation of an emergency
00:19:40.140for example if we know a hurricane is coming um or at the beginning of the wildfire season
00:19:45.900communications begin to take place between senior officials in both either the province or territory
00:19:51.420and our federal departments whichever is implicated most of that is managed through
00:19:55.500the ministry of public safety um and and for example in my experience most of that work has
00:19:59.980been done by deputy uh stewart who i think you've also heard from there's usually discussions that
00:20:05.660take place between senior officials there is also a table of senior officials sometimes referred to
00:20:11.020who is the senior officials responsible
00:26:24.520And Mr. Hutchison was also brought in and serves in a number of different roles,
00:26:31.160including he is secretary to the cabinet committee that I chair, the Safety, Security, and Emergencies Committee.
00:26:38.400He's also acted as secretary in other duties that I've been assigned by the prime minister.
00:26:43.620And, for example, I co-chaired with British Columbia, a committee with the British Columbia government
00:26:49.440involving all the ministers and it's very significant representation from first nations
00:26:54.300leadership in in coordinating all of government's response to to the to the floods and jeff acted as
00:27:00.720the secretary for that committee as well okay and and a a third uh name that we're going to encounter
00:27:07.640uh uh in some of the documents and that those who have been following will have will have seen
00:27:14.000already zita astravis uh can you describe what her role is in your department yes zita is the chief
00:27:21.600of staff for my ministry office i have within my ministry office people who are responsible
00:27:26.880for policy development as it pertains to emergencies with with communications and media
00:27:31.760relations and finally with operations because we engage with every region of the country
00:27:36.640and and all the people that work in that office are overseen by my chief of staff zita astravis
00:27:43.760she is a very serious and experienced political staffer within the ministry office and she
00:27:50.400previously served as my chief of staff when i was the minister of public safety now um
00:28:00.560again people who've been uh who've been following this proceeding or following the original events
00:28:06.720we'll know that uh there's another part of your background that ended up assuming special
00:28:12.640significance as these events unfolded in january and february and that was your first career as a
00:28:19.200police officer and ultimately the chief of police of the toronto police service uh first of all can
00:28:24.080you describe in broad strokes what that experience was and then i'll bring you back to the to the
00:28:30.880particular public order experience that that you had in those roles yes mr cameron i joined the
00:28:37.120toronto police service in 1976 i served as a toronto police officer for 39 years and from
00:28:43.520for the last 10 years of that my 39 year career um from 2005 until until 2015 i was the chief of
00:28:51.680police of the city of toronto um and in that capacity i served in a number of roles and that
00:28:58.720were somewhat related to um the events that transpired right now as i understand it as you
00:29:07.440were coming up the ranks uh you in fact served a term as an inspector of a public order unit itself
00:29:16.240that is the actual unit that goes out and deals with public order uh incidents yes yes sir i was
00:29:23.120public order trained and i served as a public order incident commander um for very very many
00:29:29.360public order incidents in the city of toronto over a number of years okay now the one that that
00:29:35.520often gets uh remembered because it was it was so newsworthy was the g20 uh event in toronto which
00:29:45.520ended up being a public order event as well as its political event on its own.
00:29:53.360And you played a role in that, but it would probably be helpful if you described what role
00:29:58.720you played, what role you didn't play, and roughly how that, what you learned from that experience.
00:30:05.360Yes, sir. The G20, it occurred in June of 2010 in the city of Toronto. It was a planned event.
00:30:15.360I was, throughout that entire period of time, the chief of police, and therefore responsible for policing in my city.
00:30:21.780But the event itself was actually headed up by an integrated command structure with a gold, silver, bronze command structure that was put in place,
00:30:31.240the leadership of which was with the RCMP, but also it had representatives from my service, but also from some of the regional services around it and the OPP.
00:30:41.720and they were actually responsible for the operational response to the g20 but throughout
00:30:48.120that period i was the chief of police and therefore ultimately responsible for every
00:30:52.520policing related matter taking place in my city right and as you mentioned uh probably in a
00:31:01.56030-odd year career and especially ten as chief of police there were more than just the g20 event and
00:31:07.080And the one other perhaps event or series of events that was memorable during that period when you were chief of police were the Tamil protests in Toronto.
00:31:19.420And I mention them because you might find some similarities with some of the events that happened around Ottawa.
00:31:27.060And if you could just tell us about those events and how they were resolved, at least as best as you can recollect it.
00:31:34.260that took place in may of 2009 um it was a period in which there was a great deal of concern within
00:31:40.740the tamil community and there's a very substantial tamil community in the greater toronto area
00:31:44.580about events that were taking place in sri lanka at that particular time i mean as a consequence
00:31:50.020a number of people came out onto the streets to begin to protest there were two frankly significant
00:31:55.700and somewhat distinct um matters that i had to deal with as the chief of police during that event
00:32:00.420On Mother's Day of 2009, about 5,000 people from the Tamil community were demonstrating and marching
00:32:08.400and unfortunately went up on a ramp of the Gardner Expressway and ended up on the elevated highway that runs through downtown Toronto.
00:32:17.560I was called because, of course, they had blocked the highway.
00:32:20.620It wasn't a particularly serious traffic issue because it was Mother's Day, a Sunday evening and not too concerning.
00:32:27.000But I heard from my operational commanders that evening that there were no safe ways to remove those people from the bridge.
00:32:35.800There was a real concern because the guardrail really is for vehicles, not for pedestrians.
00:32:41.260There were children and elderly people up on that elevated highway.
00:32:45.640And there was a very sincere concern among my officers that any action that we might take to remove them from the bridge or even bring them down the ramp could result in a stampede,
00:32:54.420crushing of people and would just be simply too dangerous and so i directed that we would slow
00:33:01.140down that we would engage with the people that were on the bridge we would find people that we
00:33:07.540could talk to on the bridge and that took a couple of hours and then eventually i engaged them in
00:33:12.660some conversation i had a pretty good relationship with that community and found a way to have them
00:33:17.380safely come down off that bridge. And it was, in my opinion, an entirely appropriate and safe
00:33:24.260resolution of what could have potentially been a very dangerous situation. The other element to
00:33:29.900this is tens of thousands of people initially converged on University Avenue in the area of
00:33:35.540University of Armory, which is right near the 361, our superior courts in Toronto, but also right
00:33:41.980opposite the u.s consulate and initially when they went there it was it was considered quite
00:33:47.500disruptive it was noisy and it was interfering with traffic but very quickly we were able to
00:33:52.700work with that crowd to allow the ttc for example to operate on both queen and dundas so that the
00:33:58.780transit would continue to move those are pretty important transit routes in the city we also were
00:34:03.580concerned about accessing egress for our hospitals on hospital row on university avenue we worked out
00:34:09.580with them a way in which we could do that and and although that protest went on for several days
00:34:15.340and there were concerns actually being expressed by the time i remember hearing from spirit court
00:34:20.060judges about the noise outside the courtrooms um but but at the same time you know there was very
00:34:25.100little residential in in that area um i would also want to acknowledge the people that were protesting
00:34:31.180did so in a very respectful way they cleaned up after themselves you know they were on the street
00:34:35.660they were very seriously concerned but but i think that was a situation that in toronto
00:34:40.300we were able to resolve appropriately and safely um and and and eventually i i think it actually
00:34:46.860strengthened our relationship very much with that community and and if i if i recollect accounts of
00:34:51.980those events one of the things you were able to accomplish with that demonstration was was to move
00:34:57.100it from uh an arguably illegal demonstration in the sense that it was blocking university avenue
00:35:04.300to a location nearby where the demonstration could continue but not be obstructing traffic
00:35:13.500And actually, that was based on some experience that we'd had in that particular area as well.
00:35:17.360I also remember in the late 90s, there were very significant demonstrations among two
00:35:21.320other communities serving in Croatian at that same location, and we worked very closely
00:35:25.520with those protesters to allow them to engage in their lawful peaceful protests, but do
00:35:31.400in a way that minimized the disruption to traffic to the movement of people and to the functioning of
00:35:36.680basically the city's daily life all around them and as an incident commander a public order
00:35:46.120senior police officer how do you factor in that particular attempted transition that is you you
00:35:54.040encounter a public order incident ideally you're able to keep it legal from beginning to end
00:36:00.040But when it starts to transition into illegality, either because it's obstructing traffic or violating some other law, where in your ranking of objectives do you put turning what has become an unlawful protest into a lawful protest?
00:36:23.520Frankly, I actually very sincerely believe in the right to lawful peaceful protest.
00:36:27.080It's a protected charter right in this country.
00:36:29.700sometimes it can be a challenge it can be very difficult to manage these events but but i think
00:36:36.180when we if if the protesters are willing to work with the police and if the police work with them
00:36:41.700there are always some individuals who will push the limit and sometimes will break the law and
00:36:47.540and there are ways to deal with those individuals but but in my experience it is
00:36:52.900always preferable if you're able to to minimize the impact and to facilitate lawful peaceful
00:37:00.500protest um while not allowing unlawful protest or a risk of public safety and we you might not have
00:37:08.260monitored this part of the evidence but we had a similar discussion with deputy commissioners
00:37:12.340oblocki of the rcmp about this attempt that the rcmp took in in in and near coots alberta to
00:37:20.260find a legal way for the protest to continue and and let me ask you if you find if you found in
00:37:28.660those days when you were doing this the same tension because the protesters want to be visible
00:37:34.260they want in effect cause at least enough of a nuisance that they're noticed and that they're
00:37:38.900able to make their point and be heard and yet you want them to be as little a nuisance as possible
00:37:46.580And is that a tension that your forces and the people you have as your liaison team are trained to try and sort out?
00:37:55.740Well, if I may, just let me cite as an example.
00:37:58.300During the G20, we designated certain places where we wanted to facilitate lawful, peaceful protests.
00:38:04.660And, for example, over at Queen's Park, we said, you know, if you gather there, you'll be able to protest.
00:38:10.960And some people were quite willing to do that, but unfortunately not everybody is.
00:38:14.360And then some people, you know, prefer to be, you know, to disrupt traffic or in the case of the G20, unfortunately, it also resulted in a set of circumstances where there was significant property damage, fires were set and windows were smashed.
00:38:29.220But I think it's important to distinguish there are always people who seek only to engage in lawful, peaceful protests.
00:38:39.880And I think it's our responsibility, and I say our, forgive me, it's the police responsibility to facilitate that to every extent possible.
00:38:48.900And, unfortunately, there are also, in some circumstances, people who choose to engage in unlawful behavior and don't engage in lawful but rather unlawful protest, and then there has to be whatever action is required in order to curtail that.
00:39:06.320Right. Now, coming to the events in question, as the matters were developing, there was a series of what ended up getting called briefings on truckers' convoy among ministers and senior officials in the government.
00:39:29.460And it looks from our account of the documentation that you attended, probably all of them or almost all of them.
00:54:45.860Because it's also useful to remember, I think, Mr. Cameron, there were a number of things
00:54:50.980happening right across the country at the time.
00:54:53.540You know, the OPP in particular were dealing with a difficult situation in Windsor.
00:54:56.980They had also had to respond to other events across southern Ontario.
00:55:03.040Their resources were being quite significantly challenged because they had to continue to respond to a very dynamic and mobile threat across the country.
00:55:12.880And so my understanding was that, you know, they needed the clarity of an integrated command action plan
00:55:23.140that they'd all agreed to in order to facilitate the movement of people to go and deal with the situation in Arwa.
00:55:29.300And in that context, did you have a view as to whether there was any logical order of operations,
00:55:40.260if i can call it that way in terms of uh where ottawa should look to first uh we we have heard
00:55:48.820from commissioner lucky that she wasn't standing on protocol here she was prepared to devote
00:55:54.420resources uh as quickly as she could while while ottawa sought uh sought help from the province as
00:56:02.980well but putting aside those urgent first steps that were taken did you have a sense of what the
00:56:11.700proper protocol was for Ottawa to follow in this context putting in mind both the hatch we're wearing
00:56:17.540as Minister of Emergency Preparedness and your history of having encountered similar situations
00:56:22.820Douglas over many years in Toronto. Yes sir to be very clear there's a number of different ways in
00:56:27.300which this has been uh particularly if there's a planned event a planned event as i've already
00:56:32.820mentioned the g20 in 2010 there was another plan that i was involved in involving
00:56:52.420structure put in place at the time i actually brought about 400
00:56:56.260Toronto Police Service officers up here to Ottawa to work under that integrated command structure
00:57:00.740and to assist in public order for that event. I'm also aware, because I've been around a long time,
00:57:09.140that there was always a very close working relationship between all of the police
00:57:14.500services working in the National Capital Region. They convened a table that they refer to as
00:57:18.580Intersect. I've had no dealings with it in the recent period, but I was familiar with it
00:57:24.660when i was a police chief where the rcmp worked very closely with the ontario or the ottawa police
00:57:29.940service i believe the opp were at the table and the gatineau police and and so there's always been
00:57:35.140good cooperation among the police services in the national capital region i'm also very familiar
00:57:41.140that i've i've been involved in very many instances when i was a police officer where we
00:57:46.260would in the toronto police service we had frankly a lot of people we had a lot of people trained in
00:57:50.900public order and we would bring our public order resources to assist in in in kingston for example
01:03:35.020had to do with the extent of administrative oversight
01:03:39.260and political input to the activities of the police.
01:03:43.260And so, again, with your long policing experience
01:03:48.260and your role now as a Minister of the Crown,
01:03:54.520can you start by giving us an overview of how you see either Police Board
01:04:02.320or other levels of government officialdom oversight of police,
01:04:08.260where you see that fits in and how you view what has been called in this hearing so far
01:04:15.160sometimes the line between church and state or the conundrum of how much uh police forces should
01:04:22.760resist political interference and that whole topic thank you sir if i may first of all just
01:04:28.920a point of clarification justice morden's report although a very important report was not a public
01:04:33.080inquiry it was a report commissioned by the toronto police services board um in the in the
01:04:38.120aftermath of that report there was also another public report done by the office of the independent
01:04:42.440police review director mr jerry mcnealy also on that report but also not a public inquiry thank
01:04:48.520you one of the things i i can share with you sir i was a police chief for 10 years i was appointed
01:04:55.400by the police services board the police services board is constituted under the police services
01:04:59.800act it's defined on on its duties and responsibilities and how and how it's comprised
01:05:05.960i very firmly believe very sincerely believe that good policing requires good governance
01:05:12.440And governance is not to suggest, sir, that a police services board or the governance authority will direct the police in their investigations, in their operations, will even direct them in the administration of their police service.
01:05:26.080That's not the function of good governance.
01:05:28.520The function of good governance, in my experience, is oversight and accountability.
01:05:34.320And I think it's fairly well articulated in a number of provincial statutes across the country, including the Ontario Police Services Act.
01:05:41.280In my own personal experience, I used to meet with my board every month for several hours over the course of a day.
01:05:49.760It was done in public. Some of it was in camera, much of it was in public.
01:05:54.200They would ask me questions about use of force. They would ask me about training.
01:05:58.360They would ask me about HR issues, the discipline and maintaining of conduct within my organization.
01:06:05.700I reported to them in a very public way about our engagement with diverse communities, about a number of efforts that we were making to prevent crime, all those things that were the responsibility of the police service to deliver adequate and effective police service.
01:06:19.420And that's actually directed at the board and then designated to delegated to me by the board.
01:06:25.060The police have extraordinary authorities in our society, but those are not unfettered authorities.
01:06:31.500I think there's an expectation that we will be held to account for the way we use those authorities
01:06:38.300and that there will be independent civilian oversight of policing activities.
01:06:46.700There is no good policing without good governance.
01:06:48.960Sorry, slow down and say that again, please.
01:06:50.920There is no good policing without good governance.
01:06:54.760And when you use governance in this context, you're not talking about the police and his or her deputies.
01:06:59.920you're talking about some level sir i'm talking i'm talking about independent civilian oversight
01:07:04.640of policing the police chief answers to someone i answered to my board i worked for my board and
01:07:11.360and and i was accountable to my board and and i understood that was my responsibility to be
01:07:18.320accountable to answer their questions they were always very careful by the way and i can't
01:07:22.960remember recall you at one incident in 10 years where they ever directed me in an investigation
01:07:28.080in an operation, but they asked me a lot of questions about what we were doing and why we
01:07:32.420were doing it. I believe it was my responsibility to provide them with that information so that they
01:07:38.120could fulfill their function of providing oversight to me and to hold me accountable
01:07:42.040for the job that I was doing. And so I know there's been, because I've watched, there's been
01:07:47.060a lot of discussion about, you know, having a civilian or a politician directing the police,
01:07:54.560And that's never acceptable. But at the same time, the police must be accountable to an independent civilian authority.
01:08:01.600And that can be achieved through a government minister who's assigned responsibility can be done through a police services board.
01:08:08.460But but in my experience, public policing is all predicated on public trust and the consent of the people who are policed.
01:08:14.800That trust is really warranted by that oversight and accountability and transparency and the way those extraordinary authorities given to the police are exercised.
01:08:28.380Right. And in the time that you were chief of police and having this governance relationship with the police services board,
01:08:39.440would you have considered it interference or what is sometimes called directing the police
01:08:46.280for that board to have outlined to you either long-term or immediate priorities
01:08:51.780or rankings of objectives to accomplish with your available resources there are a number of
01:08:59.320different models of governance that are often employed by police service boards one of them
01:09:03.440is through policies and priorities i think i believe it's called the carver model um i actually
01:09:07.480slow down for the reporter and the what model the carver model i've actually spent a lot a lot of
01:09:11.560time i i also felt it was my responsibility to help my board be a good board because they would
01:09:17.160help me be a good chief and so we spent a lot of time talking about how they could do their job
01:09:22.840and it would help me do my job um as as a board and and i think it it was a very effective
01:09:28.440relationship um they did set priorities for the service they also set my budget um i would
01:09:35.800collaborate with them and work very closely with them and they would consult with the public on
01:09:39.880what those priorities should be because there is a bridge that a governance body can serve
01:09:45.640for a police service to be that connection on behalf of community and and so they they would
01:09:51.160bring there's lots of community deputations made at our board meetings where people would would
01:09:56.360outline their expectations and their concerns and and and the board would set priorities but my board
01:10:01.320was also very careful not to cross a line into operational matters to suggest where we should
01:10:08.680deploy people or or you know what investigations or what laws would be enforced they never went
01:10:13.960there and and neither would frankly i have allowed them i had to push back on that but they often
01:10:19.480talked about you know placing a greater emphasis on community policing on community outreach on
01:10:24.840building greater diversity within the police service and and you know how we interact with
01:10:31.320you know the incredible diverse population of our city and and issues of crime prevention and and
01:10:36.120how communities were to be be policed and frankly i never considered those infringements on police
01:10:43.000operations i just thought it was we were working together to do good policing and and what about
01:10:48.520when that uh effort at direction uh from the police services board was aimed at a more immediate
01:10:58.280situation and i don't mean a particular investigation or anything of that type but for
01:11:03.880example if the tamil protest had shut down university avenue for four days would you
01:11:09.640have considered it out of line for the police services board to to ask you what you intended
01:11:14.840to do about it and express to you their view that they considered this a serious problem for the
01:11:20.040city? I would have considered it entirely appropriate. And frankly, I recall getting
01:11:25.440these questions from the board. What are you doing? Why are you doing it? There was a fair
01:11:29.880bit of criticism, as you can imagine. As a matter of fact, some of the national papers were accusing
01:11:34.040me of being overly tolerant. My board was very supportive of what we were doing, but they did
01:11:38.440asked questions about what and why, which I considered entirely appropriate, but at no time
01:11:44.860did they tell me how to police that community. And I think that's, for me, there's a bright line
01:11:49.940there. And they didn't cross that line, but they held me to account to the decisions I was making
01:11:56.180on how I was going to deliver policing services in those circumstances. And I didn't consider
01:12:01.700their questions infringements on any aspect of my authority and responsibility. It was my job
01:12:07.960answer their questions and and to to allow them to perform that oversight role and to hold me
01:12:14.120accountable for the decisions i made now that's very helpful now i'm going to ask you to see if
01:12:21.240you can direct those thoughts to the uh i don't know if unique is the right word but at least the
01:12:29.480different situation of the rcmp which doesn't have a police services board structure to which it is
01:12:37.560accountable uh the commissioner reports to the minister and uh has a relatively thin statutory
01:12:45.960framework uh that that that delineates that relationship have you had some thoughts about
01:12:55.240what what you're calling governance of the rcmp could and should look like if it's different
01:13:01.640than it currently is now yes sir and in fact it actually appeared in in my mandate letter
01:13:07.240when I was the Minister of Public Safety, that we were looking at the issue of governance.
01:13:13.380It's also, I also had some responsibility, I have a keen interest in the delivery of
01:13:18.060First Nations policing program across the city, and we're working towards the development
01:13:22.240of a new legislative framework for First Nations policing in Canada.
01:13:27.180In order to make sure that that's as effective as it can be, I believe we have to resolve
01:13:32.100the issue of governance in those communities, give people a say in how they're going to
01:13:36.360be policed. That doesn't mean they get to direct the police operations, but they can make decisions
01:13:42.520about how the police will function within their communities. And I would also make the observation
01:13:48.680in a number of jurisdictions across the country, you know, we sometimes see the tension that exists
01:13:54.620for the contract policing across this country, but very often it's an issue of governance.
01:14:00.320And I'll just cite, if I may, I also recall vividly, in Ontario,
01:14:06.380there were a number of communities that had their own little small police services
01:14:10.380who made a decision to go and contract with the Ontario Provincial Police
01:14:15.300to deliver policing services in their community.
01:14:18.280And I witnessed the OPP make a very strong effort
01:14:22.580to give those communities governance authority over their detachment
01:14:27.340and to meet regularly with the local officials
01:14:30.420and to actually give them a say in how they're going to be policed.
01:14:34.440I thought it was very thoughtful, and I also believe that model,
01:14:38.780which I'm familiar with Ontario, could assist us
01:14:41.920in improving the quality of policing right across the country,
01:14:45.760particularly in contract areas and, in particular, in First Nations.
01:14:51.220And do you have any specific recommendations,
01:14:53.700or I shouldn't say specific in the sense of drafting legislative terms,
01:14:58.800but what a more complete governance structure would look like for the RCMP?
01:15:07.940I think there's a number of models to be considered.
01:21:47.940Yes, sir, and I don't recall precisely whether the letter arrived first or I heard from Deputy
01:21:53.820Minister Stewart, but I became aware that there was a request from the province of Alberta,
01:22:00.980and I believe it was from Minister Rick MacGyver, stating a number of things about what was
01:22:06.380transpiring in Alberta with respect to the Coutts blockade. The Coutts blockade had been going on
01:22:12.640for some time, and among the things that Minister MacGyver was asking for, he made a number of
01:22:18.200comments, but his primary ask was for access, and he was very specific, to Canadian Armed Forces
01:22:23.760tow trucks, I believe, in order to assist in the movement of trucks that were blockading the
01:22:31.200highway in southern Alberta at Coutts. And so immediately, because he was asking for Canadian
01:22:38.520Armed Forces resources and personnel in order to respond to this, that request I forwarded to the
01:22:45.180Department of National Defence and to minister an end, because it didn't fall under any of our
01:22:49.680existing agreements. So it would have been something that, first of all, we'd have to hear
01:22:53.060from the Canadian Armed Forces, whether or not they had equipment fit for purpose, and would also
01:22:57.520require the approval of the Minister of National Defence. And so that information went on over to
01:23:05.120them. I also recall a number of days later being advised by Deputy Minister Stewart that the
01:23:12.800Canadian Armed Forces advised that they did not have equipment fit for purpose and didn't believe
01:23:17.400that they would be able to respond to that request. The advice I received from the Deputy
01:23:23.060Minister at that time is that we should simply advise Alberta that we weren't able to respond
01:23:28.260positively to their request for assistance. We always endeavor to try to do our best, but there
01:23:33.720have been a few occasions when we've had to say, no, we just don't have that equipment.
01:23:37.360But I did ask the Deputy Minister and some of my own staff to explore, again, from a whole government standpoint, did we have any other resources that we can draw upon?
01:23:49.440I was quite reluctant to say just say no.
01:23:52.120And so we looked at other departments and agencies, Parks Canada, Transport Canada, even had people checking to see if we could access trucks in the United States that could have been brought across the border to assist.
01:24:03.360and ultimately I was advised no and that they weren't able to do that I then asked because
01:24:10.980Mr. MacGyver had called me and wanted an answer to the question and and I said to my people we
01:24:17.240have to have a formal response to Mr. MacGyver a letter was produced I approved it I was concerned
01:24:23.700that again we were saying no but I approved it also making an offer because he had indicated
01:24:29.320that they were going to purchase some of their own vehicles at that point in time that we the
01:24:33.720federal government would assist in paying for those vehicles um and and eventually a letter
01:24:38.060was approved um and and and i signed off on it thereafter um it goes back to officials to to be
01:24:46.400sent i understand in my subsequent uh messaging with with minister macgyver that he never received
01:24:51.800that letter i have no explanation for that and we we've we've heard an explanation from your staff
01:28:26.840Now, moving chronologically through events to the consideration of the Emergencies Act, as it came up, you participated in the SSE meetings and then the IRG meetings when the forum transitioned to the IRG.
01:28:44.140Were you present at or represented at all of those meetings?
01:28:48.740Thank you. And if you can describe in general, what was Cabinet, or at least those members of Cabinet who were gathered in those meetings, looking to you for, and what were you able to contribute to the meetings?
01:29:05.220first of all in in the safety security and emergency uh committee that i chair um it's a
01:29:14.020it's a smaller group of cabinet ministers that that regularly convene although each of these
01:29:18.900meetings was what i referred to as ad hoc it was beyond our regular schedule of meetings but we
01:29:23.700we i brought them together in order to receive uh briefings from depending on the officials deputy
01:29:30.180minister stewart commissioner lucky the nsia advisor to provide information to my cabinet
01:29:37.620colleagues um also to to discuss the appropriate government response um i also took the opportunity
01:29:45.220during these meetings and i think what i was able to contribute was was to provide them with an
01:29:49.780understanding because of my policing background with the the policing environment that that
01:29:55.220governed um this event and and as the event unfolded over the course of a number of days
01:30:01.860about you know what again the policing environment not just in ottawa but in in in various locales
01:30:08.420in provincial in alberta british columbia in manitoba and a number of points of entry in ontario
01:30:15.220right now uh i i have a particular question that comes out of something we discussed in the
01:30:22.740interview uh uh and and uh that i believe you have a view on you you were participating in these
01:30:31.300meetings as events were coming to a head uh we had uh irg meetings coming up towards the uh
01:30:41.860irg meeting immediately before invocation on the 13th uh and i'm gonna get in your interview
01:30:49.620summary which the parties have already seen you outline the reasons that you thought
01:30:54.820were certainly bearing on your thoughts as you were contemplating the the propriety of invocation
01:31:01.860but there was a there was a particular sub point that i wanted to ask you about which was was
01:31:07.380whether uh you were aware of i think you've probably heard about now uh at the time you
01:31:16.420were contemplating this and ultimately giving your input to the prime minister uh on the 13th
01:31:21.060whether you were aware of commissioner lucky's uh views that she thought that there were still
01:31:27.140law enforcement tools uh available to the rcmp to deal with the situation in ottawa and elsewhere
01:31:34.260in canada i don't believe i was aware of that on the 13th right or before or before yes i've
01:31:42.820obviously subsequently become aware of it and we've talked about you've asked me about it but
01:31:46.420but i don't i don't recall being aware of it right i'm prior to that and and and as i'll just
01:31:52.740to be clear despite having been at all of the ssc and irg and ultimately cabinet meetings that we're
01:31:57.860considering invocation is that correct yes sir okay now can we come to your for for you don't
01:32:04.740have to do them off by heart although you might remember them i can i can help guide you through
01:32:09.380them but but as i recollected from our interview with you you you had categorized the reasons that
01:32:14.340you thought uh invocation of the act was important and as i i don't want you to characterize these
01:32:22.180necessarily as the advice you gave cabinet because that would be a confidence of cabinet so if you
01:32:29.540can just describe them to us as how you were viewing the matter as the con as you were
01:32:33.940contemplating invocation yes sir if if i may um the situation in ottawa had been enormously
01:32:41.540challenging for the people of ottawa um and and i i think people were living in a state of of
01:32:47.540fearfulness and and intimidation um and and frankly i think it was a very difficult set
01:32:53.220of circumstances for them there um and and i was aware of that and you know obviously anxious to
01:33:01.380to to resolve that but i remained hopeful throughout and and and i i'd like to also
01:33:08.500sort of be clear to characterize i believe very much the emergency act was a measure of last resort
01:33:14.660and that it was incumbent upon us to first of all either exhaust all existing authorities or
01:33:21.620acknowledge that they would not be successful and could not be used for a number of different
01:33:25.860reasons and we were hearing that type of feedback from law enforcement about the enormous challenges
01:33:30.020they were facing we were also hearing about how stretched their resources were being were being
01:33:35.860pulled because of events that were taking place in different parts of the country that required
01:33:40.340them to respond to one place but then be required in other places and that was a challenge that we
01:33:44.980were hearing quite frequently as well but i will also tell you i became very concerned because one
01:33:50.420of my responsibilities as the minister for emergency preparedness is the resiliency and
01:33:55.220safety and security of critical infrastructure and we define critical infrastructure as 10
01:34:00.020different sectors sectors of critical infrastructure and in particular as it relates to
01:34:04.020this event it includes such things as manufacturing our transportation routes the essential supply
01:34:11.060lines the movement of essential workers and and what i was witnessing at the ambassador bridge
01:34:17.860at Coutts, at Emerson, and then in a number of different venues where we would see similar
01:34:27.140activity being threatened to be done at Point Edwards, at the Peace Bridge, at the Pacific
01:34:32.100Highway in British Columbia. That escalation I viewed as a significant escalation because it did
01:34:41.780result in significant disruption of critical supply lines. The cutting off of essential
01:34:47.700goods and services, the impact that it was having, not just economically, but on people,
01:34:53.540on families, and, you know, people who laid off their jobs, and factories were being idled. I was
01:34:59.780also concerned because I'm aware, being a person from Ontario, that the integrated manufacturing
01:35:05.700processes in Ontario, particularly in the auto sector, but in many other manufacturing sectors
01:35:10.660as well, you know, prior to being public safety minister, I was also the minister of border
01:35:14.560security. And so it really did give me an understanding and appreciation of how important
01:35:19.800the integrity and functioning of that border is to our prosperity, to our economy, and to the
01:35:26.920well-being and health and safety of Canadians. And so when those borders were essentially closed
01:35:33.280and that, you know, the movement of goods and services, particularly some of the parts that
01:35:38.060go into our factories was being essentially stopped, it was hugely impactful. And I believe
01:35:44.860that it had risen to the level of a national emergency. We were also seeing, frankly,
01:35:52.020the information that we received from the RCMP on or around February 10th, that they believed that
01:35:57.220there were firearms present at Coutts. And then subsequently, I believe on the 13th and 14th,
01:36:03.180when they completed their criminal investigation and arrested people and seized a number of
01:36:06.860firearms it also for me elevated concern about public safety and and and the risk that not
01:36:13.440everyone involved in these process represented but embedded within these protests the possibility
01:36:18.660is certainly in Alberta of of of violence and even serious violence um taking place and and so
01:36:26.620for for me the that the impact that that it was having not just in the city of Ottawa but I don't
01:36:33.660want to minimize what was going on in Ottawa by any stretch of the imagination, but right across
01:36:37.820the country, particularly as it pertains to critical infrastructure, for me, elevated the
01:36:42.760situation to a national emergency. I would also observe as well, I believed that there was strong
01:36:50.280evidence that the fact that this protest was so well entrenched in blockades in Ottawa really
01:36:59.040anchored what was taking place even right across the country that there was in my mind a clear
01:37:03.760correlation between the activities of border blockades and what was taking place in ottawa
01:37:10.000and and and it it also for me highlighted the need we had to resolve the whole situation and
01:37:15.840failure to do so would it failure to resolve in ottawa would have resulted just continue to like
01:37:21.440like whack-a-mole chasing border blockades from one point of entry to another there are 119 border
01:37:29.040points of entry, land border points of entry in this country, plus our airports, and all of them
01:37:34.540are vulnerable to this type of unlawful action. And in my opinion, that represented a serious threat
01:37:41.760to our national security and became a national emergency. And when you describe
01:37:47.140your observation that the impact on the critical infrastructure elevated the situation,
01:37:54.660that the blockades the convoy the protests etc elevated that to a national emergency
01:37:59.500when you say that the impact on the critical infrastructure when i think of infrastructure
01:38:06.220i think of physical built bridges and roads and trains and things like that but i i i don't think
01:38:13.800there was any actual harm to those so i take it you're talking about the the impact on trade and
01:38:18.920the economy and people in the vicinity, their lives, things like that, not the infrastructure
01:38:25.600itself? When an artery, a point of entry into the country, in Manitoba, in Alberta, in Ontario,
01:38:34.880is essentially rendered dysfunctional, when it's closed and nothing is moving through there,
01:38:41.220the movement of those goods and services, in my opinion, is part of our critical infrastructure.
01:38:45.620It supports manufacturing. It's part of the transportation, you know, but and you don't you don't have to blow everything up.
01:38:53.500To render it unusable. Right. And, you know, that can be done through cyber attack, for example.
01:38:58.380But but but rendering unusable is an attack on critical infrastructure, in my opinion.
01:39:02.940And that that's excuse me, that's precisely what happened in these in these circumstances.
01:39:07.460and it was for me we'd seen bridges and highways and rail lines go down in the in the floods and
01:39:15.760storms in British Columbia it we knew we had to work hard to get those reopened but the situation
01:39:22.180in across this country it it was exacerbated by the the very significant challenges the police
01:39:29.700we're obviously having to clear these in a timely way all right um and if i can remind you uh
01:39:39.780you had a fourth believe it or not you just did go through three of your factors that they sort
01:39:46.740of got lumped together but your fourth had to do with your your your view on whether or not
01:39:51.940the existing legal authorities were adequate uh whether they had been exhausted etc uh what was
01:39:59.220your view there yes sir i want one of the things that i can go through a bit of a list one of the
01:40:05.060things we'd heard in alberta in manitoba in british columbia and certainly in ottawa and at
01:40:10.660the ambassador bridge was the very significant challenges that the police were having in gaining
01:40:16.260access to vehicles that they could tow the the large trucks that were being used basically to
01:40:23.140blockade you know they think these almost ceased to be trucks they they were uh fortresses and and
01:40:29.700very very difficult to move um there there were a number of reasons why that i think have been
01:40:34.260articulated for this commission as to why they couldn't gain access to those but it was a reality
01:40:38.660that they could not um i i looked very carefully by the way on on the friday when ontario brought
01:40:44.340in their measures they did attempt to address making those those tow trucks available at least
01:40:50.260in ontario but you know it only authorized the use of the truck it did not compel it
01:40:55.300and and so i was concerned that given the circumstances and what i believe to be the
01:40:59.380reasons why those trucks weren't available to to the police to clear the blockades either
01:41:04.260at ambassador bridge or in ottawa that we needed to do something else i'm also aware in in previous
01:41:11.780part of my police career i was very much involved in organized crime and money laundering
01:41:15.460investigations. And so I am familiar with the authorities and the activities of FinTrack.
01:41:21.220And one of the questions that we had as a government was, where is this money coming from
01:41:25.500and how is it being used? I became aware that FinTrack did not have existing authorities
01:41:31.260to provide us with that information. And so that was, in my opinion, a deficiency in existing
01:41:37.180authorities and something that we needed to consider how we might be able to address it.
01:41:41.480there were there were also a number of areas like one of the things when ambassador bridge as an
01:41:47.440example was was blockaded one of the first things i did is i dug out the international bridges and
01:41:52.520tunnels act to see what authorities we had but the authorities within that act were limited only to
01:41:57.980the bridge and as you recall the blockades in windsor didn't set up on the bridge or even in
01:42:03.200their their their primary points of access it was further down the road it was very effective in
01:42:07.860closing down that bridge but it would happen to be on a municipal roadway which which is governed by
01:42:13.380municipal bylaw and the ontario highway traffic act but not up really effectively by any federal
01:42:18.740statute and so the ability to designate certain spaces that also became relevant um in in the
01:42:23.860city of ottawa i think um for wellington street and the sir john a parkway um in order to this
01:42:31.780it became necessary to designate certain spaces where those activities would not be prohibited
01:42:37.620and so there were a number of circumstances where the normal tools that the police would rely on
01:42:43.780either in municipal statute in provincial statute or municipal bylaw provincial statute or in
01:42:49.060federal statute were not being able they could not use them effectively to to resolve this in a
01:42:55.380peaceful way and and you know we we listened very carefully to the challenges that we were facing
01:43:01.540And I came to believe that we needed to find a remedy to provide them with the tools that they required
01:43:08.740in order to affect the purpose of bringing these protests to an end.
01:43:12.920Okay, and coming to the end of our time and to the end of the part of the story that the commission hopes to have you talk about,
01:43:24.280You observed, not as a police participant, but as an experienced public order commander,
01:43:32.420the enforcement action that eventually came to pass in Ottawa when the plan,
01:43:38.120the Joint Forces Plan, was implemented.
01:43:42.280Did you have observations about the propriety effectiveness, timeliness, etc.,
01:43:48.360of the police action once the plan was in place?
02:13:08.280And so you can agree there that the Prime Minister has stated that being part of the protest is essentially standing with intolerance and hate.
02:13:16.400I don't believe that was the distinction the Prime Minister made.
02:13:19.700He was actually telling people who don't agree with those measures not to stand with those who do.
02:13:24.860Right. And I take it, you know, that when the protesters arrived on January 28th up to February 1st, that the evidence to date is that they were largely and completely peaceful and that there was little to no violence. Do you agree with that?
02:13:36.940and and and again i i think i i think there might have been isolated incidents and and frankly
02:13:47.040i also believe um the the carrying of hateful symbols like a nazi flag is is in many ways
02:13:55.860causing fear and it is a form of violence and intimidation against people who who who would be
02:14:01.960caused caused to be very fearful about such symbols in their community and so the bearer of
02:14:07.240the nazi flag that that is a person who is hateful and it is someone that the government
02:14:13.160of canada is concerned about is that fair um again i don't know the person who was who was
02:14:17.720bearing the flag and i i wouldn't comment on that but i i know how hurtful that a nazi flag can be
02:14:25.960to very many canadians who in in their life experience that's a symbol of of anti-semitism
02:14:31.080hatred i understand and so i understand that you're also though you're familiar with the company
02:14:35.960enterprise canada it does work for the liberal party of canada i do i'm not sir are you familiar
02:14:41.400with uh supra davini does that sound i'm not sir are you familiar with mr brian fox no sir have
02:14:49.000you heard anything about the individual carrying the nazi flag actually not being a protester
02:14:56.920but somebody sent there so that photos were taken you have you heard anything about that
02:15:03.480only from you sir okay and we'll just come back to uh the issue with the labeling then
02:15:11.480i take it though that you consulted your comms people on the narrative that you wanted the
02:15:17.080media to accept before the protesters even got here according to that email no sir that's not
02:15:22.600not correct that email states that they were buying the narrative that's what it states with
02:15:29.740with respect sir i believe what the email says is is that some of our communications people were
02:15:34.980were examining and being prepared for the event coming but no decision had been made none of that
02:15:40.160was presented to me and it did not form any of of my messaging can you agree that from the
02:15:45.160protesters arrival at least after february 4th you intended and wanted the protesters removed by force
02:15:50.960didn't you absolutely not sir i i wanted the protest to end and then to be removed but i've
02:15:57.780always been committed to doing that as peaceably and proportionally as possible but you couldn't
02:16:02.180talk to them after they had been labeled these extremists because your colleagues and yourself
02:16:08.740of course you know extremism nazis terrorists you can't talk to that sort of group can you it would
02:16:14.140look bad wouldn't it um i would actually disagree with your characterization in various points of
02:16:19.360life sir i've engaged with with people who are engaged in protest and and and so i frankly i
02:16:26.000disagree with your characterization so on february 7 2022 when the mayor of ottawa asked the federal
02:16:32.240government and yourself to bring in a mediator to meet with the protesters do you remember what you
02:16:37.440said to your chief of staff in response to that no sir perhaps you could share it with me we can
02:16:42.240bring up document ssm.nsc.can.00003070 underscore rel.0001
02:17:01.120so this is your response to finding out about the request for a mediator and you respond as follows
02:17:09.120i don't know who is advising mayor watson but this is a bad mistake he has conceded without
02:17:13.760ever using the many tools available to the city his language is also problematic this is not a
02:17:18.400labor dispute between interest it's an unlawful occupation as long as the city and its police
02:17:23.280refuse to do anything no progress will be possible so i take it at the time when you
02:17:28.160wrote that to your chief of staff that was how you felt correct yes sir all right that's that's
02:17:34.080an email from myself to my chief of staff correct and so it's fair to say that you did not want to
02:17:39.920bring in a mediator i i was concerned about the intention of the mediation and and what was being
02:17:46.320negotiated um in in my experience the the intent of engaging with protesters is to bring a peaceful
02:17:53.520resolution to the protest yes but also then on february 11th of 2022 you were given a copy of
02:17:59.520of the engagement proposal that inspector bedoin of the opp and deputy minister steward
02:18:05.200had drafted right you were emailed a copy you'll have to share it with me sir to help me recall
02:18:10.640if we can bring up document ssm.can.00006131 underscore rel.0001
02:21:55.440And again, I did not express a problem with this. The Deputy Minister was engaging with city and provincial officials in this and then came with his proposal to serve this proposal was before you in the IRG on the 13th.
02:22:13.120actually i appreciate you you bringing that up sir i also recall that in in the discussion
02:22:20.020almost immediately after deputy minister uh stewart advised us of the discussions that had
02:22:25.680been taking place um there was very public disagreement among a number of people in the
02:22:30.960protest who disavowed that disavowed this process and and and so quite frankly i think that i
02:22:36.460understand i understand that but that's not really what the evidence that's come out there's been
02:22:40.520evidence and we'll leave it at that but at the end of the day when you saw this you agree that
02:22:46.680it was recommended by the opp it had been brought to you and drafted by the deputy minister of
02:22:51.700public safety and they were on board in fact i found an email can you agree that the privy
02:22:58.560counselor the privy counselor clerk she gave it the green light again it was it was cabinet
02:23:07.340was it not well there was no recommendation mr commissioner i think that misstates the
02:23:12.480evidence of the clerk with respect to the green light just one friend has made i'd like to ask
02:23:17.000that my friend have a good faith basis for the questions put in the characterizations of the
02:23:21.560evidence that are placed before the witness as some of the characterizations suggest that there
02:23:26.880is a purpose to the questions less of seeking the witness's evidence but a purpose of stating the
02:23:32.980stating facts as though they were evidence when that evidence is not properly before you.
02:23:36.820I have one last question and then I'm done.
02:23:38.700So you agree with me that after the invocation, on numerous occasions,
02:23:44.940your government told the public that law enforcement had told you
02:23:51.160that the threshold to invoke the Emergencies Act was met.
02:23:56.260Do you remember all those statements that your colleagues and maybe even yourself made?
02:25:14.520And in order to have an operational plan to end the type of event that occurred in Ottawa, you'd agree with me it'd be necessary for the police to draw upon subject matter experts?
02:25:30.540And you wouldn't be critical, I take it, if the police needed to draw upon resources outside their own service, whether that be other Ontario services, the OPP, the RCMP, etc.
02:25:47.160Not at all, sir. That's a very common practice.
02:25:49.400And that might take a bit of time to assemble such a team. Fair enough.
02:43:01.440Now, by this point, if you scroll to the top, just so we can get the date, this was February.
02:43:06.760If we subtract five hours, this was the evening of February 13th.
02:43:10.440And by this point, on February 13th, the OPP was heavily involved in policing protests all across Ontario.
02:43:16.880you spoke about this in your evidence both leading the enforcement in windsor integrated planning
02:43:23.760team in ottawa 402 there were other areas in ontario correct so the opp you would agree was
02:43:30.240heavily engaged throughout the province yes sir right what i asked both deputy minister deputy
02:43:38.080minister stewart and commissioner lucky about consultation and both agreed that in light of
02:43:44.000that context where opp was heavily involved and would be using these tools the opp could have
02:43:49.920provided valuable input into the request as to what would be useful or necessary policing tools
02:43:57.280would you agree with that i'm not sure what the opp might have provided there was also um an issue
02:44:04.400of the decision had not yet been made at the at the time of this email it was it was under
02:44:08.880consideration but but the decision had not um been made and and it it was you know a matter
02:44:17.200there was still a very important uh consultation that the prime minister had to undertake
02:44:22.320uh with the first ministers from across the country and and so the decision to invoke and
02:44:27.520had not yet been made uh there was some consultation internally about useful tools
02:44:32.880but but it wasn't completely it wasn't fulsomely uh pursued because of the need to maintain
02:44:40.480um the process that is required under the legislation no fair enough but it would have
02:44:45.760been relatively easy for commissioner lucky to reach out to commissioner to creek to say
02:44:49.840just in case at some point we get to an emergency that can vacation are there any tools you might
02:44:54.400find useful that could have happened right well i i have no knowledge direct knowledge of that
02:44:59.440But we were also, over the course of the entire event, witnessing some of the challenges, the very real challenges that law enforcement, the OPP, the RCMP, and many others were experiencing in this event.
02:45:11.440And it very much informed our deliberations and consideration of various tools that might be useful to the police response.
02:45:19.080Sure, but you're not in the command room anymore, right?
02:45:20.880I mean, you're observing from afar, but Commissioner Karik would certainly have the better perspective on it.
02:45:26.000No, and I agree, but it's also I think one has to be circumspect about it's not the police that determine what tools would be provided under the Emergencies Act.
02:45:39.100We consult with them on some of the challenges that they were facing, but it is a responsibility of government to determine what measures would be appropriate under the Act.
02:45:47.260Sure, the decision is made by politicians, but ultimately, in terms of proportionality and using only the tools that are useful and necessary, it's a good idea to reach out to law enforcement, isn't it?
02:45:58.060And again, to understand the challenges that they were facing, but not specifically to ask them what additional tools.
02:46:04.360I don't believe that would have been appropriate.
02:46:06.320I've never been in a circumstances where, you know, that was a question put to a police leader.
02:46:11.780What additional legislative tools do you require?
02:46:13.680so we heard from from mr the deputy minister mendicino sorry deputy minister
02:46:19.280di tamaso that that's what happened before the ontario emergency legislation that he consulted
02:46:23.600that way and of course commissioner lucky was consulted for tools but you think it's somehow
02:46:28.720inappropriate to ask police for input on this i i i think there is a an appropriate process
02:46:35.600um i'm mindful that of deputy excuse me commissioner karek's reporting responsibility
02:46:51.840So just so I'm clear, would you disagree then with Commissioner Luckey and Deputy Minister
02:46:55.360Stewart that there ought to have been consultation in that regard?
02:46:59.360I think consultation on the challenges that the police were facing.
02:47:03.580I would not personally have asked what additional legislative authorities they might require,
02:47:09.320But it's very helpful to understand the difficulties that they were having with existing authorities.
02:47:14.480Right. Now, of course, you're not like most of their cabinet ministers because you're looking at this as a 30 plus year police leader yourself, correct?
02:51:47.380And during the time that you worked with him, he had succeeded under your command in achieving promotions and taking on increasing responsibilities.
02:54:16.380Now, when he came here to the city of Ottawa to become the chief,
02:54:20.060you understood also that it was to implement a change mandate on behalf of the police services
02:54:24.780board yes sir including in respect of the board's effort to try to improve the relationship between
02:54:33.420the ottawa police service and racialized communities marginalized communities yes sir
02:54:39.020and those strategies are uh are challenging strategies as an agent of change is that true
02:54:47.100I have had considerable experience, Toronto being a very diverse city in bringing about a stronger relationship between the police and the minority communities we serve.
02:54:57.120I was going to say that you yourself made improving community policing one of your objectives as Chief of the Toronto Police Service.
03:04:34.060You passed them on and the resources came from the RCMP and the OPP,
03:04:38.280but nobody followed the Police Services Act protocol in Windsor.
03:04:41.480I'm not sure, sir. My understanding is with the OPP involvement there, they essentially led that response. That was my understanding.
03:04:50.800And the Police Services Act protocol to which you referred isn't mandatory in respect of a sequencing.
03:04:58.960It is there, but police services, including at the time that you were the chief in Toronto, gain resources through memorandum of agreement and other requests through police services, right?
03:05:11.900When I made reference in my early remarks to the Police Services Act and the provision within the act for a chief of police to deal with an emergency that exceeds their capacity, there is that provision in the act.
03:05:23.140But I am in agreement, sir, that quite routinely for a lot of these events, they reach out to neighboring police services and people come to help each other as best they can.
03:05:30.860And what you observed from Chief Slowly was that he was trying his best to get the support he needed for the community to keep the protest safe and his own service safe, correct?
03:05:43.120He was certainly advocating for what he believed to be the necessary resources.
03:05:47.460And your observation was that he acted in good faith in the performance of his duties?
03:05:51.700I did not detect any element of bad faith.
03:05:54.720and that he did you were you made aware i assume that you weren't you did not know of the plans
03:06:00.540that the ops had their evolution and the approvals that chief slowly chief slowly's team gave to those
03:06:06.900plans no sir as i've previously testified i i made no inquiry and received no information of
03:06:11.660the operational plans that were either being developed or in place the information that you
03:06:16.880received as a minister and in cabinet came in respect of police services and resources through
03:06:22.500Commissioner Luckey, is that fair? Primarily through Commissioner Luckey, yes. And are you aware
03:06:26.380that certain of the information that you received turned out not to be accurate in terms of the
03:06:32.180resources? I'll give you a couple of examples that you were aware of what has been described,
03:06:37.800I think, by Deputy Commissioner Duhame to the Commissioner as a mix-up about the 250 RCMP
03:06:44.380officers. I'm not familiar with Deputy Duhame's testimony. I wasn't following it. What about
03:06:51.980minister jones 1500 opp officers on the ground in in ottawa were you aware she made that statement
03:06:58.860i'm not okay or that therefore that it was inaccurate you wouldn't have known that
03:07:03.320no sir a couple of last things and if i may you you uh i think in your evidence in your
03:07:12.200statement have described that you had requested or spoken with chief slowly about the possibility
03:07:17.620of tagging vehicles and towing vehicles he explained to you why that was not possible
03:07:22.820as a matter of safe enforcement and you accepted his his conclusion and did you did you know that
03:07:29.460rcmp and opp officials were urging ops through chief slowly and others to not take enforcement
03:07:36.980steps because in ottawa they lacked resources to do so safely i'm not aware of that if they did you
03:07:43.940would again defer to them as them and the ops as to the people with the best line of sight into that
03:07:50.420of course chief slowly gave me an explanation and i accepted that he was the chief of police
03:07:56.340and that was his belief last thing then please if if i could because of course you know minister
03:08:03.220from the nature of the questions that you've been asked that there's a great deal of of scrutiny
03:08:09.140about what Chief Peter Slowley did here in Ottawa.
03:08:12.460Can you agree that in hindsight that more could have been done
03:08:16.160and sooner to assist Chief Slowley and the OPS
03:08:20.180to secure the assistance of resources?
03:08:22.760I believe with the clarity of hindsight, sir,
03:08:25.100that there were a number of steps that upon reflection,
03:08:28.260I think everyone involved would have liked to have seen a quicker outcome.
03:08:33.640I'm very mindful of the enormous impact this was having
03:08:36.360on the people of Ottawa in particular.
03:08:37.720and and because of some of the other then related protest activities across the country was huge
03:08:43.820hugely impactful upon all Canadians and so the the timeliness of of resolving that I think was
03:08:50.720it was important to all of us and in hindsight I think that's it's also our responsibility
03:08:54.980to learn from that experience and make sure that we can do it better next time. And in hindsight
03:09:01.440nothing more chiefs really could have done individually to make a difference. Well again
03:09:05.200you did that that's a judgment but i don't have enough information to make respectfully um but
03:09:10.080but at the same time time i think we we all need to reflect on how we could have resolved this
03:09:14.400quicker and more peace more effectively thank you commissioner thank you minister okay next is uh
03:09:22.480and now we're into the shorter more challenging uh timelines uh city of ottawa
03:09:35.200Thank you, Commissioner. I'll do my best. Minister, my name is Alyssa Tompkins. I'm
03:09:44.300one of the lawyers representing the City of Ottawa. So I will try to be quick. I do want
03:09:50.460to take you to a couple documents, though. So first document, Mr. Clerk, ssm.nsc.can
03:15:37.160There is a police, obviously a police responsibility there, but respectfully, I don't believe it is my place.
03:15:44.040And I've always been meticulously careful not to in any way interfere with police operations.
03:15:49.360I believe, you know, the city clearly has a role with that with their police services board, but not directly from me.
03:15:55.300Now, we know from your testimony or for your witness statement as well that it appears that there was indeed a lack, a delay in resources, RCMP resources being provided to the City of Ottawa, in part because there wasn't a firm plan in place for the deployment of those resources, correct?
03:16:12.340There are a number of reasons I've come to learn as to some of the challenges of deploying those resources.
03:16:18.780Some of them were also deployed in a number of functions, as I understood it, that were dispersed from the downtown core.
03:16:23.760but you you and on your witness statement anyway sir uh which i understand you've adopted you said
03:16:29.180one of the first one of the main reasons was that there was not a firm operational plan in place and
03:16:34.680and and that's true mr champ there was a concern that we were hearing from not just the rcmp but
03:16:40.580other police services that they wanted confidence that an operational action plan was was in place
03:16:48.020before they were able to deploy their resources and you would have agreed with me sir that would
03:16:51.440been important for that information to be shared by someone in some way with the Ottawa Police
03:16:56.100Services Board? I'm going to object. This is, again, Alyssa Tompkins. Chair Deans, in her witness
03:17:05.180statement, stated that she knew that there was not, that there was a concern that there wasn't
03:17:12.760a plan. And my friend keeps putting that to witnesses to try to get them to agree. When her
03:17:17.940witness summary which she adopted on cross and confirmed uh states expressly that she was aware
03:17:24.180that well i'm ready for my friend this time if i may commissioner uh the testimony of uh
03:17:29.540ms deans was that that was her speculation but she was never told that by anyone no one shared
03:17:34.820that information she was concerned that she wasn't getting detail in the plan she was wondering why
03:17:38.660there was a delay but no one shared that information that's what's in her statement
03:17:42.020that's what her testimony was when she testified in fact her statements suggest that she's the
03:17:45.940one that suggests okay well let's try and keep this can you just uh i i just want to be careful
03:17:53.700because it's an important point and my friend keeps putting it to witnesses i'll be sending
03:17:58.260a letter to my friend after this but i just want to close with this miss uh minister um you would
03:18:05.780agree with me that it would be inappropriate for a federal government official to be
03:18:10.500uh trying to influence the police services board on the selection of a
03:18:14.180chief of police or to delay a decision of appointing of chief of police for municipal service
03:18:21.300i can i can speak for myself sir i would not engage in in in that behavior if if my advice
03:18:28.340was asked on on a matter i might provide the advice but but but as you characterize it i'm
03:18:33.300trying to influence or interfere with that decision i don't believe that would be appropriate okay
03:18:36.980thank you very much of course okay next is uh the windsor police service
03:18:46.820hi good evening heather patterson here for the windsor police service uh good evening
03:18:51.300minister blair can you hear me okay yes ma'am thank you in your testimony today you praise
03:18:58.100the ottawa enforcement operation uh because and i'm going to paraphrase what you said you said
03:19:03.620because it moved slowly it took care and it allowed for the least amount of force possible
03:19:10.260i think you described it as a textbook operation yes then would sorry would you agree that it's a
03:19:16.820hallmark of good police enforcement that that type of slow careful um least amount of force
03:19:23.540possible type operation i i yes i would i would certainly characterize that police operation as
03:19:30.820proportional measured charter compliance and appropriate great and you praise the ottawa
03:19:37.460enforcement action even though you had to explain to colleagues the need for police to move slowly
03:19:42.100and carefully in an enforcement operation i i i don't that's probably inappropriate to
03:19:48.660characterize that i needed to explain to co to colleagues but i have some familiarity with
03:19:54.340those operations and what i was witnessing here in ottawa or textbook and entirely appropriate
03:20:02.260and i certainly shared that with colleagues okay so then let me put it to you this way would you
03:20:07.220agree it's important to move slowly with an enforcement operation even when others feel
03:20:11.620there's a sense of urgency and and and again i think the the response is it depends on on the
03:20:18.500urgent nature if if someone was being injured for some for example i think under those circumstances
03:20:24.020one might want to go a little quicker, and it'd be necessary.
03:20:27.720But I think a methodical, measured, and proportional response,
03:20:32.360every public order response is in part determined by the actions of the other side, the protesters.
03:20:39.480And if their behavior is less aggressive, then that type of approach is entirely appropriate.
03:20:48.980Okay. And would you agree that that equally applies to the situation in Windsor and the Ambassador Bridge?
03:20:54.020oh yes um and would you agree that citizen and after officer safety is the forefront in any
03:21:01.220public order operation i i believe certainly in in public safety and that includes officer safety
03:21:06.980as a priority in every operation and you would agree with that despite the fact that you felt
03:21:12.100there was a need for urgency of action in windsor i i was very concerned about about the blockade
03:21:17.620of that of that roadway and and that there wasn't a need for urgency but but at the same time you
03:21:23.460the operational decisions made by the police commanders on the ground,
03:21:26.860knowing the challenges they face, the resources available to them
03:21:30.260and their legal authorities, I respect the decisions that they make.
03:28:24.080all right so I don't seem to have the right spot but instead of wasting time and scrolling through
03:28:33.040the transcript i'm just going to read to you some of the parts of your transcript so in the
03:28:37.880transcript you state these blockades are unlawful um and i would urge all of those who are engaging
03:28:44.000in this unlawful activity think about the people you are truly hurting and stop let me be very
03:28:49.100clear the ambassador bridge is a vital artery to our country and it's a vital artery to our supply
03:28:54.180chain it's central to the functioning of our economy and to serving all canadians do you recall
03:28:59.260making those comments yes and later in your remarks you referred to the protesters unlawful
03:29:04.900actions blocking ports of entry as essentially putting their foot on the throat of all canadians
03:29:10.120do you recall that yes and in your remarks you also state that the rule of law has to be upheld
03:29:15.740and canada will ensure police have the resources they need to uphold the law and keep the peace
03:29:20.660right yes your opinions reflected in these remarks have not changed since february have they no sir
03:29:26.020no ma'am i take it you made these statements to national media to make it clear to the public
03:29:30.500and to the protesters that protested protesting by blockading ports of entry is unlawful
03:29:35.860correct yes and that the protesters should stop yes are you aware that the same day as this media
03:29:41.940availability that it was widely reported by american and canadian media that you and your
03:29:46.660fellow ministers labeled the bridge blockade as illegal i didn't have the opportunity to read
03:29:51.940the american press but i'm not surprised okay but the protesters did not stop did they
03:29:57.540no okay um i have a few questions uh minister blair about um
03:30:06.580planning around critical infrastructure so um will you agree with me that systems of support
03:30:13.060should be in place to support the communities and local authorities who are most often the
03:30:17.620first responders to emergencies i i would agree that local communities are often the very first
03:30:25.540impacted i i would try to make the point though the blockaded ambassador bridge went well beyond
03:30:31.220that intersection in windsor was affecting auto plants for example right across the province and
03:30:37.220in in michigan that you know a lot of people were being deeply impacted but certainly i would
03:30:41.940acknowledge how difficult that was in ottawa and in windsor minister blair are you aware that shortly
03:30:49.620after the successful police operation windsor representatives including mayor dilkins started
03:30:54.500asking all three levels of government to sit down and develop a long-term sustainable framework to
03:30:59.460protect the critical border infrastructure i did not have a direct conversation with with mayor
03:31:04.340dilkins but i believe my colleague did well minister uh are you aware that minister mayor
03:31:09.380dilkins wrote to you directly on march the 17th if you share it with me i'll refresh my memory i
03:31:14.980have no direct recollection of that letter from mayor dillkins although we've communicated quite
03:31:19.780extensively over the course of the pandemic and other related matters okay well i i will ask the
03:31:24.660clerk to bring this up this is win four zeros two two four zero so he sent you a letter on march the
03:31:30.90017th and just to summarize it for you and you can see it but i don't have very much time minister
03:31:36.100um he does ask for you and minister mendicino and former solicitor general jones to sit down
03:31:43.060to debrief and work together to protect windsor's important international border crossings you don't
03:31:48.100recall receiving this letter i have no direct recollection of it but but it it strikes me as
03:31:53.300a reasonable request from the mayor okay and mr blair are you taking any steps as minister of
03:31:59.460emergency management to ensure the inter-jurisdictional collaboration that's requested
03:32:04.980by mayor delkins here and the planning occurs to protect border infrastructures and the communities
03:32:10.260around them there's a great deal of work ongoing about creating a more resilient critical
03:32:14.580infrastructure for this country from all hazards um including what we have seen um over the course
03:32:20.420of last year and if i may i'm over my time um are you taking any steps as a minister of emergency
03:32:28.260management to ensure that municipalities and border municipalities are included in these
03:32:32.340conversations i can tell you in every community that i go to i try to go and visit the mayor i
03:32:37.700believe very much in all three orders of government have a role here and and and i and i as i said
03:32:43.460i've engaged with mayor tilkins numerous occasions and and many of the mayors particularly the border
03:32:48.260mayors throughout the pandemic i'm on a very regular basis with all of the mayors of ontario
03:32:53.540border communities they had some important things to say and and they needed to be heard thank you
03:32:58.660very much okay thank you i'd like to now call on the province of alberta
03:33:07.700good evening minister blair my name is stephanie bose i'm council for the province of alberta
03:33:14.100i'd like to start with a document ssm.can 406055
03:33:28.660And if Mr. Clerk, if you could scroll down to the last email on this page, or sorry,
03:33:38.240in this document, it'll be on the next page.
03:33:42.580And this is an email dated February 9th from Mr. Stratfest to you, subject line ABRFA.
03:33:51.540And if you scroll down to the text, please, Mr. Clerk, you'll see the text on the letter
03:33:56.360itself john broadhead and i spoke and i think we revised the response about exhausting provincial
03:34:01.640resources and enforcing contracts and laws and we look forward to learning more on that front
03:34:07.720so it's not a no just more context now i understand mr broadhead is the director of policy
03:34:14.040in the pmo is that correct yes do you know what the reference to it's not a no is about
03:34:22.440i i believe i do i was very concerned when i heard back from the deputy minister and the
03:34:28.360canadian armed forces that they did not have the equipment that minister macgyver had requested in
03:34:33.000his request for assistance and so i asked my my staff and public safety to explore other areas
03:34:39.720of government to see if there was any way that we could provide assistance uh to um to alberta and
03:34:46.120we looked for example in other in other federal departments we look outside the country in in
03:34:50.760montana um we were looking for any way that we if the calf equipment was not appropriate or available
03:34:57.240we were looking to see if there was any alternative that we could help out there with all right thank
03:35:01.800you um at ssm.can.nsc 402689 this was a record that commission council put to you earlier today
03:35:18.200um and i'll ask the clerk to please pull that up the version that you saw today was
03:35:23.560redacted and i understand that that was only recently supplied and when we review this um
03:35:30.840this is an email from again your chief of staff on february 11th if we scroll down
03:35:40.520we see an email from rady barrack to you on february 11th
03:35:44.360within the the next page we see a response further i understand that alberta has the
03:35:52.920required legal authorities necessary to enforce compliance as a highway is considered essential
03:35:58.920infrastructure and it goes on there are a number of contraventions or other applicable legislation
03:36:04.600that may also be enforced by alberta and its police forces so at that point in time the reason
03:36:11.240for rejecting alberta's rfa was in fact that the position of government of canada was that alberta
03:36:17.880had the required legal authorities is that correct yeah if you could read down through
03:36:22.760the entire letter because i i want to see how that this is dealt with
03:36:31.640and and and i think it's also it's relevant that in the last paragraph where the letter
03:36:37.320also refers to the lack of commercial resources the canadian armed forces being the only federal
03:36:41.640asset and discussions that make clear that calf have neither the type of assets required nor the
03:36:46.120expertise to do this without significant possible risk so it was an answer to minister macgyver's
03:36:52.680specific request for tow trucks belonging to calf and and it was i think it was important context for
03:36:57.960this letter as well but certainly also the position of canada was that alberta still had authorities
03:37:03.080that it could exercise to deal with the blockade at coots correct there is some reference to to
03:37:07.640that in this in this letter yes okay thank you if we scroll down to the last paragraph in the letter
03:37:19.800there's reference there to the use of federal resources may be reconsidered at a future date
03:37:26.200once all other provincial options and capabilities have been exhausted what was meant by that
03:37:33.080Well, again, we were also examining across all of government.
03:37:38.000We were also talking about the possibility of providing funding to assist them in acquiring through private and commercial means the vehicles that they required.
03:37:47.120But, of course, contingent on all other provincial options and capabilities having been exhausted, correct?
03:37:52.920Well, and again, not just exhausted or unlikely to succeed.
03:37:58.000I think that's a reasonable consideration as well.
03:38:01.420I think we were trying to communicate.
03:38:03.680My concern, quite frankly, is I felt a necessity to reply to Minister MacGyver,
03:38:08.940who had made a request to give him the information.
03:38:11.920He very specifically asked for something, and we were saying no.
03:38:15.760And I think as you saw in the email above this, I was concerned that we weren't able to say yes,
03:38:22.400but I was also concerned that we needed to reply to his letter.
03:38:27.540and that reference of course is to the at the very top when you approve this response is the
03:38:32.260response to go to alberta yep and then i'll ask you mr clerk to please go up to the top
03:38:37.620there's a reference to has the pmo approved and i take the pmo to be the prime minister's office
03:38:43.700is that correct that's the usual uh that acronym represents the prime minister's office for sure
03:38:49.860and was it a requirement that the prime minister's office approve a response to an rfa i'm i no not
03:38:56.500not normally um but clearly there was communication between uh the offices about because there's also
03:39:02.660an issue of inter-government affairs between ourselves and the provinces um i think there
03:39:07.300was a complexity to this request because it involved a number of different ministries
03:39:11.860and it was on it was an unusual outcome because we always try to find a way to say yes
03:39:17.700do you know if the prime minister's office ever did approve a response to alberta's rfa i have
03:39:21.940have no knowledge of that i'm not involved in those those communications all right there is
03:39:27.220reference um in the the records um to your chief of staff um arranging a february 9th meeting with
03:39:35.300the prime minister to discuss the rfa were you aware of those discussions no okay thank you um
03:39:43.140i am over my time i would ask the indulgence of the commissioner for a couple more minutes
03:39:47.860just to touch on two more things please okay go ahead but try and make it fast everyone's been over
03:39:54.820with one exception as i recall all right um mr clerk could you please pull up document
03:40:00.340ssm.nsc.can403164 and this is an email dated february 17th from you to your chief of staff
03:40:13.060minister blair yes i'll have you scroll down a little bit to that to that second email it says
03:40:21.460zeta this letter from alberta is incredibly helpful they are asking for federal assistance
03:40:26.580they say have they've exhausted all existing authorities and resources they are practically
03:40:31.060begging for us to help we should think about publishing this i'll take it this is reference
03:40:35.540to the february 5th rfa that your office received from minister mckiver is that correct yes
03:40:43.060All right. You wanted this letter to be published as support for Government of Canada's invocation of the Emergencies Act, correct?
03:40:50.060My intention was that it would be published because we were putting documentary evidence before Parliament.
03:40:55.700There was an ongoing parliamentary debate and there was a vote scheduled for the following week.
03:40:59.860And my recommendation, because specifically Minister MacGyver had talked about the RCMP exhausting,
03:41:07.140the language isn't in front of me, but I believe his letter said, all of their resources and options.
03:41:13.060And I thought that was particularly relevant to the discussion around the invocation of the act.
03:41:19.800But you were also aware prior to the invocation of the act of Alberta's success in purchasing tow equipment, correct?
03:41:26.760I was aware that they purchased tow equipment.
03:41:28.780And I also was aware that it had become somewhat moot
03:41:33.880because after the investigation by the RCMP,
03:47:17.300uh it'll be 300 right not on the pdf but on the document itself
03:47:28.660so can you go down just a little bit further remember is where i want to start
03:47:35.860okay up just a bit okay this is ms duane's evidence from last week and she says remember
03:47:44.340that we also discussed today that the moment we talk about the emergency act that can trigger
03:47:49.620some reactions and that was the CSIS assessment on the risk of triggering or invoking the emergency
03:47:55.860act so we were quite aware that the moment that we talk publicly about the emergency act
03:48:01.540the timeline to take a decision is very short it can be a go or no go but you cannot wait
03:48:08.500i'm just going to ask you to scroll down a little bit further now please
03:48:11.140scroll down a little bit further thank you no no up okay next paragraph you cannot put that
03:48:20.740in the domain without taking a decision and what we were afraid happened very rapidly the moment
03:48:27.140we hang off the call on the fmm it was already out there that we were thinking about the emergency act
03:48:33.780so this is why you know we were very concerned and concerned that talking about the emergency
03:48:39.780act will request a very rapid decision a no or a yes but a rapid decision now you can probably
03:48:46.660anticipate my next question uh minister but is it it is did you share ms drawing's concern
03:48:52.980about publicly talking about the emergencies act i think if i read this correctly uh the deputy
03:49:01.380clerk's concern is that after a very important step in any process of invocation involves
03:49:08.980consultation with the First Ministers, and Deputy Joanne's concern appears to be that after that
03:49:16.420call, some of that information was being made public, which I think, and I do understand the
03:49:22.340concern, because it does, although it's not the final decision, it does, many might take an
03:49:29.700inference that this was likely to happen. That, in my opinion, is different than suggesting we
03:49:35.140were considering all options which was a conversation that we had i'd had a number of
03:49:39.460times prior to that but if if the the deputy's uh concern quite frankly i have great respect
03:49:46.980for the deputy and and if this was a concern she had um i i and and it it aligns somewhat
03:49:52.740with ceases advice that the invocation of the act could result in a violent reaction from some
03:49:59.700okay my friend for council for the government of alberta referred to your interview with mercedes
03:50:06.660stevenson i understand you also gave an interview with rosemary barton on sunday morning february
03:50:12.18013th is that correct minister yes sir and that was on rosemary barton live
03:50:19.140i understand at that time you advised ms barton that the irg had been having daily discussions
03:50:25.460about the potential invocation of the emergencies act is that fair i i'd actually have to see that
03:50:32.180to to to understand the precise language i was trying to be and and it was always my
03:50:36.980intent to be very precise that that we were considering all of our options including
03:50:42.180the emergencies act but but but that no decision had yet been made you recall telling miss barton
03:50:48.980that the police now have new authorities and very effective tools we just need the police to do their
03:50:54.580job yes i do and i was referring to the new authorities as those that had come from the
03:51:00.020province of ontario with the invocation of their emergencies measures and and as well the
03:51:06.420regulations that they had brought in on the saturday and did you all you also recall stating
03:51:12.020that it was somewhat inexplicable why enforcement was not happening i was asked if i could explain
03:51:19.620uh the law enforcement's response and and i said it was somewhat inexplicable in my my meaning there
03:51:26.100i hope was clear that i could neither explain nor account for law enforcement's response frankly
03:51:32.500that's up to them okay did you think that uh your statements might suggest that a decision needed to
03:51:42.740be made fairly promptly about invoking the emergencies act or not i don't believe that
03:51:47.860that would have influenced either the prime minister or the first ministers in their deliberations
03:51:53.700okay i understand that you were not present at the first minister's meeting held on february
03:51:59.54014th is that correct yes sir that's correct now in your view would it have been appropriate
03:52:07.060to advise what that meeting was going to be about before the start of the meeting you're asking me
03:52:12.740to speculate on something frankly i have no knowledge of and i was not part of that meeting
03:52:17.940if you were a premier would you would would you have preferred being advised in advance about
03:52:24.180what a first minister's meeting is going to be about that's quite a hypothetical sir and and i've
03:52:28.820never thought about being a premier you're uh well over time so with that answer you're going to have
03:52:34.740to wrap up please last question thank you commissioner minister from your perspective
03:52:42.180would there have been any risk to advising the premiers about what the first minister's meeting
03:52:48.820was going to be about respectfully sir i don't believe i'm in a position to assess that risk
03:52:54.660okay that's my last question so thank you for answering them
03:52:58.580thank you next is the canadian constitution foundation
03:53:11.460Mr. Blair, good evening. My name is Sujit Choudhury. I am counsel for the Canadian Constitution Foundation.
03:53:19.680I have some questions for you about some remarks you made or evidence you provided in your witness statement regarding the sequencing of requests by the OPS to the OPP and the RCMP.
03:53:35.460and so just for the sake of time I'd prefer not to call it up although I will if you'd like to
03:53:40.460refresh your memory but do you recall you said that the city of Ottawa and the OPS were not
03:53:47.080following the proper procedure for requesting resources because requests for police resources
03:53:53.160in Ontario are formally governed by section 9 of the police services act and I believe that I
03:53:59.380expanded upon that evidence in my examination in chief earlier today sir that I am familiar of
03:54:04.840course with the number of circumstances where various police services may seek and obtain
03:54:09.260assistance from others. I was also just simply pointing out to council that there is a provision
03:54:15.460within the Police Services Act that allows for a police chief dealing with an emergency that
03:54:21.320exceeds the capacity of his police service to manage. There is a section in the act that allows
03:54:25.960him to request assistance from the OBG. And Minister Blair, would you agree that that provision,
03:54:32.580although it authorizes a municipal police force or a chief of police to seek assistance from the
03:54:39.400OPP, it doesn't require that they go first to the OPP before going to the RCN. No, and in fact,
03:54:45.720they, well, again, depending on the circumstances, they often go to neighboring police services.
03:54:52.040I can tell you from experience in the Toronto Police Service, we very frequently assisted
03:54:56.280other municipalities because we had a fairly robust um and and well established public order
03:55:02.280unit that we would we would assist those those other police officers and so you'll you'll recall
03:55:06.520the tripartite calls that chief slowly participated on on february 7th and 8th yes sir and you had a
03:55:13.560brief interaction with him and this was after the request for policing resources was sent
03:55:19.160simultaneously by mayor watson and chair deans both to ontario and to the federal government
03:55:24.600And this type of concern about sequencing, it wasn't ever relayed to him, was it?
03:55:30.880I did not discuss the Ontario Police Services Act with the mayor.
03:55:35.540My primary interaction was with the mayor.0.66
03:55:38.340And on the first apartheid meeting, she slowly joined that call right at the end, and we did not discuss.
03:55:44.720And you'd agree there's nothing in the RCMP Act that says that the RCMP can't respond to a request from a municipal police service?
03:55:53.480No, and in fact, they do. But there is actually the Ontario Police Services Act is silent to the RCMP. And the RCMP has some capacity to respond. But under normal circumstances, it's somewhat limited.
03:56:07.540Sure. And this wasn't a normal circumstance, though, was it?
03:56:12.700No, I think, as I said, it was uniquely challenging for the city of Ottawa and then in the multiple other jurisdictions that were being impacted by the blockades.
03:56:19.840And so if I could conclude her, so you'd agree that even though in the normal course it might be appropriate and it might be standard practice for a municipal police service in this province to first go to the OPP or to other municipal police forces before going to the RCMP, perhaps in the case of the convoy and in the national capital region, it might have been entirely appropriate to set aside that normal practice and go directly to the RCMP in parallel.
03:56:48.460I can tell you from a long experience that the RCMP are actually a very important and valued partner
03:56:54.340in providing public safety services here in the National Capital Region,
03:56:58.880and because they have a presence here, probably stronger than anywhere else in Ontario.
04:03:03.800There's there's been a lot said here in the last couple of minutes, and I'm probably I'm very close to with not over my time here.
04:03:09.880But I guess I'd like to ask you, you're making a lot of noise about intimidation and threats of violence.
04:03:18.760But can you point me to any particular specific threat of violence or event that was violent?
04:03:24.260Well, sir, you've characterized my response as noise, but I was trying to answer your question.
04:03:28.020Well, I appreciate that. But I'm just trying to cut through this and get an answer out of you.
04:03:31.940I can tell you we heard from very many Canadians who were very fearful about the activities of these blockades and protests.
04:03:40.320You know, they were afraid to walk down their street.
04:03:41.920They were intimidated and fearful of all those reactions.
04:03:46.100Some of the, you know, the symbols and other things that were on display were very threatening to very many Canadians.
04:03:53.540And frankly, the threat of violence is every bit as impactful on a community and on individuals.
04:04:01.160and therefore it became it was a very serious matter from my perspective all right um the
04:04:05.600definition of in section two of the cesus act of a threat to the security of canada doesn't capture
04:04:11.960everything that you and your capacity as a minister of emergency preparedness would consider
04:04:16.340to be a threat to the security of canada does it i'm not sure what you mean i i think i think this
04:04:23.480definition is is fairly comprehensive and includes the type of behaviors that i've referred to but
04:04:28.860But you would say that in your occupation as Minister of Emergency Preparedness, this sets the limit of what you would consider to be a threat to the security of Canada, Section 2 of the CSIS Act?
04:04:41.600I think this defines what, in my opinion, would be a public order threat to the security of Canada.
04:04:48.920There can be other types of threats that were not necessarily evident here.
04:04:55.500A cyber attack, for example, that's targeted at critical infrastructure that shuts off a pipeline or a power grid or a water treatment plant, those can also manifest themselves as threats.
04:05:06.360There is a significant threat there that doesn't necessarily involve physical violence in the first instance.
04:05:14.460Okay. And just a final question. It's your belief that this definition here in Section 2 of the CSIS Act applies differently to CSIS than it does in the context of the Emergencies Act, right?
04:05:25.700I'm aware of the way in which this definition applies to CSIS's authority, as determined by the courts, to initiate an investigation.
04:05:35.380But I also believe that in its reference in the Emergencies Act, that this needs to be looked at in a broader context than simply whether or not CSIS could go get a wiretap, for example.
04:05:47.680And there is, I think, very useful guidance here.
04:05:51.060So the Emergencies Act uses a different definition of a threat to the security of Canada.
04:05:56.840No, I think this definition, as provided within the Act, in my opinion, is appropriate and does, in fact, identify the events and circumstances that we have described as a concern within the Act as, in fact, a threat to the security of Canada.
04:06:16.400All right. Well, thank you very much. Those are my questions.
04:07:39.200We had people in the nation's capital.
04:07:42.400If I may, Parliament continued to function throughout this, notwithstanding it was a challenge and noisy.
04:07:47.280I think the impacts, from my perspective, were far more significant on the people living in Ottawa, trying to do business in Ottawa, and as well in Windsor.
04:07:56.760And, you know, I'm also very mindful of the impact that these events were having on people's ability to make a living, to go about their business.
04:08:04.440It was very impactful on a lot of people in a lot of different places.
04:08:07.000um and and around this time the so that the 10th um i believe it's the 11th when ontario uh uses its
04:08:17.800it's invokes its uh emergency under the emergency management and civil protection act um now
04:08:26.520so that's the 11th and i think we we learned that the 12th is when the the orders under that
04:08:31.400act were actually published so the the actual sort of operative provisions that gave police
04:08:36.200the authorities under that act uh came into existence on the 12th that's my recollection yes
04:08:41.960okay um now then we have the the 13th where there's an irg meeting was there any um consideration
04:08:51.560i guess by by you i'm not asking you to to disclose the deliberations of cabinet but any
04:08:56.520consideration around giving uh the ontario orders some time to work i i can tell you i had asked my
04:09:05.320my staff for for a full list of the ontario measures that were enacted the day before
04:09:10.280um i also looked at their utility and whether they would address the concerns that had been
04:09:15.160raised to us um about and and i'll just give you some quick examples if i may um one of the things
04:09:21.080that we had heard from a number of jurisdictions is the difficulty in compelling uh tow trucks to
04:09:26.760come to provide assistance i looked at the ontario regulations and although it allowed for those tow
04:09:32.040trucks it didn't compel and and and we were a little bit concerned about its limitations there
04:09:36.360was also nothing in there as i recall that dealt with some of the real challenges we had in in
04:09:41.480in tracing the financial uh elements of this in the in the crowdfunding who was who was donating
04:09:47.400that money where it was going and and so we believe that there was a need to address that
04:09:54.600how we eventually got there there was still considerable deliberations going on but but again
04:09:59.720the limitations of of the federal statute and they also did not have the ability to designate
04:10:04.920certain spaces um where and which was a concern as well because you know we were concerned they
04:10:10.120were concentrating for example on wellington um i was very concerned about their ability to go
04:10:14.440back to a municipal intersection just off the ambassador bridge um and and so we looked at
04:10:19.720whether or not the ontario regulations provided us with adequate assurance that those matters
04:10:26.040could be dealt with and although they were very welcome i want to be very clear that i i was very
04:10:31.400appreciative of the work that ontario had done and the and the measures that they brought forward
04:10:36.040in my opinion after an examination of them they didn't address all of the deficiencies
04:10:41.320and the lack of tools that we had identified okay um now would you say that at this point um
04:10:49.400you and perhaps some of your colleagues in the federal government are feeling
04:10:55.920embarrassed about what's happening in Canada, feeling that there's international attention
04:11:01.740and it looks like Canada's struggling to deal with this situation.
04:11:05.300Respectfully, I've never indulged myself in feelings of embarrassment. I've got a job to do.
04:11:10.000We have a responsibility to protect Canadians, to protect critical infrastructure in this country
04:11:15.020and to respond appropriately to unlawful activity.
04:11:19.240I personally, and I believe all of my colleagues,
04:11:21.820were deeply motivated by our responsibility to Canadians
04:11:24.960to do what was required to restore the rule of law and peace.
04:16:40.940Minister my name is Greg Del Piccio I'm one of the lawyers representing the
04:16:45.680Criminal Lawyers Association and the Canadian Council of Criminal Defense
04:16:48.800lawyers you have testified that in your view reliance upon the emergencies act was a matter
04:16:56.960of last resort and i'm going to pick up on that theme okay when commission council asked you
04:17:03.920questions what now probably feels like some time ago he asked you questions about why there was
04:17:12.800about mistrust between as i understood it police agencies he used the phrase ships passing in the
04:17:19.760night he in a question suggests there was confusion and disagreement about what who goes where and
04:17:27.360does what your answer to that was in reference to governance but my question is as you look back
04:17:37.840today to what extent do you believe that better communications more effective communications
04:17:47.360between police agencies and within police agencies
04:17:52.240might have avoided the need for resort upon the emergencies act
04:18:00.240and and first of all let me agree vigorously that good communications within police services and
04:18:06.400between police services is very important in them doing the important job that we tasked them with
04:18:11.440in our society to keep the public safe um what we were also dealing with however in government
04:18:17.440was the reality that that communication perhaps had not been as effective and as a result of
04:18:23.520you know and and again it's not my job here to assess um responsibility but the reality was
04:18:30.320this had persisted for a very long time in in many respects it had gotten more difficult and
04:18:35.200dangerous and we were concerned that it had to be resolved and and so you know i i i'm in
04:18:41.600complete agreement that good communications within police services and between police services and
04:18:46.160i would also add between those governance bodies responsible for policing and the public i think
04:18:52.480those those communication is really critically important and on all aspects of this but in the
04:18:58.640event that that had not been as effective as perhaps we would have preferred or wanted it to
04:19:04.160be. We were dealing with a situation that was uniquely challenging and required, unfortunately,
04:19:10.600in my opinion, an extraordinary response. You looked at the Emergencies Act because
04:19:16.320circumstances pushed it onto your plate and you had to deal with it. Well, my responsibility is
04:19:25.300to look at all federal authorities in existing legislation. And because of, frankly, my background,
04:19:31.160I also look at municipal bylaws in their application and Ontario statutes such as the Highway Traffic Act, which can also be applicable and useful in these circumstances.
04:19:43.580And so one of my responsibilities is to look at every legal authority.
04:19:47.620I've already mentioned, for example, at Windsor, we looked at the International Bridges and Tunnels Act to see if there was any application that that would assist us with.
04:19:55.840and what we found in the unique and challenging circumstances that police and communities were confronted with
04:20:02.960as a result of these blockades, there were, I think, a need for additional tools
04:20:09.420and authorities to enable them to affect the important lawful purpose of restoring the peace.
04:20:14.700And finally, Minister, when you testify about your belief that the Emergencies Act is a matter of last resort,
04:20:22.600that's not just a personal preference you're expressing that's your belief with respect to
04:20:26.960what the law requires right yes i believe that is a requirement that and and and as well the law
04:20:32.980also requires that it be charter compliant that it be time limited um and and and that and you
04:20:38.740know it also provides a number of parliamentary processes and an inquiry um all of those are very
04:20:43.900high standards that the law puts in place and and in my opinion appropriately high standards
04:20:48.540thank you those are my questions thank you uh call on the government of canada please
04:20:59.020uh commissioner yes before he begins uh my colleagues at the government of canada
04:21:06.380have moments ago provided some unredacted records finally based on our motions
04:21:11.660one of those records is relevant and material to this witness extraordinarily and if my friend
04:21:21.200I'd be asking to deviate on that basis because they were just provided moments ago to be able
04:21:28.840to ask this witness for five more minutes so I may question them about this new document
04:21:34.140I can advise it's February 12th minutes readout from a ministerial meeting about this very issue, and it's very enlightening.
04:35:28.280it's attached to the minutes as a document that was discussed so i take it can you agree
04:35:35.400that the engagement proposal you had that document right i don't know that's what they're referring
04:35:42.920to in in the in the document you put in front of me today right okay thank you
04:35:50.280okay now i'm calling on the government of canada again
04:35:58.280thank you um uh it's brendan vinnie and heist uh for the government of canada
04:36:11.800um just on the last point looking at that word plan and the bullet point my friend was taking
04:36:18.680you to are you certain sitting here today which plan that referred to no sir i i make an assumption
04:36:25.220that it was the police operational plan but i've never been given the details of their planning
04:36:30.420i've never asked for it and and did not require it okay so is it looking at what's noted there is it
04:36:36.740equally possible sitting here today as far as you know that that's the engagement plan as
04:36:40.900opposed to enforcement plan and and i i don't know and wouldn't i don't think it's probably
04:36:45.620to try to venture a guess i i you know it's clear that there was discussion that they were
04:36:50.820had come to an agreement with respect to a plan but i don't know its particulars
04:36:55.220all right i'd like to um come back now to the broader issues here and ask you some questions
04:37:01.860about the environment that you were assessing in as one of a number of members of cabinet
04:37:08.740this morning commission council asked or this afternoon commission council had asked you a
04:37:12.660number of questions about your perspective on the policing of public protest
04:37:18.020which included um a couple of well-known protest events that occurred when you were the chief of
04:37:22.900police at the toronto police service do you recall that i'm taking you through the 2009 tamil protest
04:37:29.060for example yes sir and um another well-known uh uh protest event in toronto when you were the chief
04:37:38.580was the g20 held in june of 2010 right yes sir i think um you and i are both quite familiar with
04:37:45.220that event as well as the later process of accountability for some of the orders that
04:37:49.860were given by the bronze level incident commander on this Sunday June 27th? Yes sir. And as I recall
04:37:58.420the evidence in that example you ultimately intervened and ordered that an end be brought
04:38:04.180to certain of those operations when they came to your attention? That's correct sir. I would
04:38:09.540like you to ask you to focus for a moment on the events in Toronto on Saturday June the 26th and
04:38:14.740thinking about the scenario before us here in this inquiry do you recall what happened on june
04:38:22.740the 26th of 2010 in toronto on the saturday sir yes sir yes sir there was a a very difficult
04:38:29.620situation what had been a relatively peaceful protest although involving a very significant
04:38:35.620number of protesters and there had been some incidents leading up to that but on saturday
04:38:40.820unfortunately um the a very significant portion of the protest began to to riot um tumultuously
04:38:50.100is i think the appropriate term um there was they were marching down towards the summit site they
04:38:55.680turned and began um running rapidly north um up young street smashing windows as they went there
04:39:03.020was a number of of police cars that were set on fire and a number of my officers were injured as
04:39:07.860Yes, and one of your officers was quite seriously injured as a result of the police car being attacked by protesters, is that right?
04:39:16.060He was injured and rescued from the vehicle, which was subsequently set on fire.
04:39:19.780Now, leading up to that event, sir, were you aware that there was a not insignificant amount of advanced information and intelligence available with respect to certain actors, most famously associated with the black bloc actors that were shared with the Toronto Police Service?
04:39:42.420And those individuals and groups were assessed as intending to cause violence to property and potentially persons during the course of the G20 protests, yes?
04:39:53.360Yes, sir. That was the intelligence we'd received.
04:39:56.520And in fact, am I correct that some of these identifiable groups or individuals warranted or were found to warrant the issuance and execution of search warrants in advance of the protests?
04:40:08.940but the events you described on saturday june the 26th they involved individuals who were
04:40:18.600not on your radar specifically didn't they that's correct sir um the groups that smashed
04:40:25.140stores and laid waste to a long section of young street in downtown toronto do you know whether
04:40:31.040all of them were a part of the target group assessed um uh or as subjects of interest ahead
04:40:37.900of the summit i i believe many of them were not previously identified as subject of of interest
04:40:42.940i also we also i also believe sir that a number of people frankly get caught up in the moment
04:40:48.780and it's part of the mob mentality sometimes when people begin to riot that others who may not have
04:40:55.040come with that intention join in and it becomes very challenging for for the police to restore
04:41:00.660with the same do you have the same perspective with respect to what occurred on queen street
04:41:05.520west where at least two of the burning police cars i understand uh occurred yes sir i i i recall
04:41:12.880watching that actually on on video from police headquarters and and and again there was an element
04:41:18.720of of of that that protest on queen west um which was directly related to a number of identified
04:41:28.480um anarchist groups including the black bloc but there were also very many other people that had
04:41:33.840not previously been identifying who joined in looking um putting yourself in the back to the
04:41:41.520situation in the streets of toronto on june the 26th you know sitting there in the middle of that
04:41:46.960afternoon um would you have had any reason to think that um obtaining more uh surveillance
04:41:54.000or monitoring authorities wiretap authorities would have been useful as a response to what was
04:42:01.040going on in the streets amongst that mass of people that it's very difficult to say if i may
04:42:08.160um i would also remind you sir that at that time i was the chief of police in toronto but there was
04:42:13.520an integrated command um team that was put in place the the leadership of of that response
04:42:19.760planned well in advance and agreed to by all parties was was led by the rcmp there was also
04:42:25.120integrated intelligence gathering units related to that certainly you know we had a fair bit of
04:42:32.620intelligence available to us but it was clearly not entirely complete I think in hindsight we
04:42:38.820could always have hopefully have done more. Would that have been a useful public order response
04:42:44.420on June the 26th of 2010 when those events were occurring in plain sight on broadcast and social
04:42:53.120media in real time yes and unfortunately law enforcement did not have the capacity to monitor
04:42:59.120all social media and neither do we now by the way or neither do they now um have that that capacity
04:43:05.760but again the extent to which more information is available you know better intelligence um can
04:43:13.360enable a more effective response now coming back to february the 14th or 13th the the the period
04:43:21.200in question leading up to the infocation of the Emergencies Act. Did you have a view about whether
04:43:27.020there was an atmosphere of lawlessness in the city of Ottawa? Yes, sir. And not, I think, to be very
04:43:33.760clear, not just simply characterized by, you know, some of the activities which were bouncy castles
04:43:41.540and hot tubs, but there was a number of activities that were, which were concerning, as I viewed them
04:43:50.740And, for example, there was a very real concern being expressed by citizens about people bringing jerrycans full of gasoline into the demonstration site.
04:44:01.540I will tell you for, you know, flammable liquids, potentially explosive liquids being brought into a demonstration site, it can create a manifestly dangerous situation.
04:44:13.040And so the police had said that we're not going to allow it.
04:44:15.960But what we then witnessed is all sorts of people were coming into the site, carrying jerry cans, some of which had water, some of which may have had fluid, but it had the effect of thwarting the ability of the police to affect the purpose that they had stated that was their intention to keep those gas cans out of the area.
04:44:32.740and and we saw you know there was a clear anticipation of of police tactics there was
04:44:37.780i think a very thoughtful effort to thwart those tactics and and render them ineffective um which
04:44:43.720to me is also characterized you know a commitment to continue and persist with the unlawful activity
04:44:49.060um so when you you draw on that example when you assess the environment of of of lawlessness or
04:44:57.540relative lawlessness in that scenario. Is your assessment based only on information received
04:45:03.700from public officials, intelligence agencies, and police channels, or does it include what you can
04:45:09.420see with your own eyes? Yeah, I was obviously being briefed by our officials, but I was in
04:45:15.980the City of Ottawa at the time. I reside in the downtown area. I was in that area and saw some
04:45:23.700of this behavior firsthand. Where an environment of lawlessness persists for a protracted period,
04:45:32.940does that, in your view, affect the likelihood that there will be acts of serious violence
04:45:36.980against persons or property in a given city? I think it can. We also recognize that in areas
04:45:43.420where there is significant disorder, and that can manifest itself in many ways, but certainly during
04:45:48.220this process protest i think we could characterize a lot of the behavior as as significant disorder
04:45:53.860in the downtown core it it has the effect first of all it has the effect on everyone else in the
04:46:00.660neighborhood law-abiding citizens they stop using public space they stop shopping on their main
04:46:05.240streets you know they stay in their houses lock their doors put bars in the windows and and they're
04:46:10.120fearful of going outside and engaging with each other and where that lawlessness becomes really
04:46:17.820entrenched in my experience that can actually create a very unsafe situation and and even
04:46:23.580behaviors that people might otherwise not be inclined to engage in in in more serious criminal
04:46:29.260behaviors i think when you create a situation of significant disorder they're more likely to occur
04:46:35.900we heard from commissioner karik in this proceeding about his fears that his officers were being
04:46:40.460stretched between the extreme ends of this province that is to say windsor and ottawa
04:46:45.020so that it would become impossible or extremely difficult at any rate
04:46:49.420to have an effective public order response occur in both places at once.
04:46:54.760And my question for you, sir, is did you, looking from the federal perspective,
04:46:59.220did you have a similar concern about the stretching,
04:47:02.560potential stretching of resources amongst the RCMP?
04:47:04.720I was witnessing very clearly the challenges that the OPP was having,
04:47:08.420not just for their activities in Windsor and Ottawa,
04:47:10.840but also having to cover off the Peace Bridge,
04:47:14.000assisting the Niagara Regional Police,
04:47:15.660the Sarnia Police over at Point Edwards.
04:47:18.280There was also other activities on other highways,
04:48:34.180I think it's very important to have enough resources to affect the lawful purpose.
04:48:39.520And again, I leave that decision to the operational commanders on the ground.
04:48:44.240But in my experience, having insufficient people to deal with a substantial protest,
04:48:49.960and I've been involved in protests where we were in our dozens up against thousands,
04:48:54.220and it becomes extremely difficult to bring that situation to a peaceful conclusion.
04:48:58.820I'd like to ask you about the risk of counter-protest.
04:49:01.420Do you see that as a relevant risk in a protest situation where a risk of counter-protest develops in terms of...
04:49:10.320It can be. And I want to be very clear that I know that there was a high level of frustration in Windsor and in Ottawa and in other places with the blockades that were taking place.
04:49:19.400And I did not see evidence of a violent response.
04:49:23.020But when there has been counter demonstrations, the police are also very challenged to sort of stand between the two protesting groups to maintain the peace between them.
04:49:32.080And that can be a very challenging environment.
04:49:34.540And it's because people who become quite upset and emotional and feel that they're being treated unfairly may.
04:49:42.560And I say may very carefully because we did not see evidence of this in Ottawa, certainly.
04:49:46.520But they can become quite agitated and upset.
04:49:53.020Did it affect your sense whether there was a risk of serious violence against persons or property when you learned about the seizure of a large quantity of guns, ammunition and body armor from Coutts on February 14?
04:50:05.340Yeah, actually, I had been advised earlier in the week, I believe around the 10th by the RCMP commissioner speaking at an IRG that I had convened, that there was concern about the presence of firearms at Coutts.
04:50:21.420that immediately alerted, like for me, was a very significant potential escalation of violence and
04:50:27.880risk at that site. You know, it's where the police advised that they had that information
04:50:35.180and that they were dealing with it. And when the investigation was complete, I believe on the
04:50:39.680morning of, or on the 13th going over into the 14th, and they began making arrests, the weapons
04:50:46.060that were seized, the charges that were laid were deeply concerning. And I won't, and I can't
04:50:51.040comment on any aspect of that matter now before the courts but i can tell you it was deeply
04:50:55.860concerning that and that's not to suggest i want to be very clear that's not to suggest
04:51:00.560that i came to believe that everyone involved in these protests was potentially armed but it was
04:51:06.400deeply concerning that embedded within that protest in alberta was a number of people who
04:51:12.060did appear to be armed and that there clearly was some evidence that they intended to cause harm
04:51:16.740Did it have any effect on your view of the likelihood or the risk level that there would be acts of serious violence against persons or property in Ontario when you learned on February 13th of the theft of a trailer of 2,000 guns near Peterborough, Ontario?
04:51:35.600Yeah, that was concerning. And we were getting information from the police. I'm aware as well that subsequently it was determined that that was not related to the protest activities. But in the moment of their theft and not knowing where they were, it was concerning that there was that many guns out there in unknown hands.
04:51:55.000thank you I'd like to ask you about a subject some of the lawyers in this
04:52:00.100inquiry have repeatedly asked witnesses about and that is whether or not you
04:52:05.020believe in the rule of law I spent my whole life upholding the rule of law
04:52:10.180sir so yes I do does the rule of law include the sense that citizens will
04:52:15.940generally acknowledge and abide by the law of their own volition I think
04:52:22.300overwhelmingly in in our country um the vast majority of canadians embrace the rule of law
04:52:28.160it's frankly part of our social contract that that we all agree that these are the laws and
04:52:33.800that we will all obey them what happens to the capacity of police to do their jobs if the vast
04:52:41.240majority of people do not voluntarily abide by the law i i can advise it it can be very difficult
04:52:49.660If a large number of people choose not to obey the law, the capacity of the police, and frankly I don't think it's necessary or appropriate for the police to charge everybody, it would overwhelm our criminal justice system. You couldn't bring all those people before the court. I think the law works best when it's done with the consent of the people, and we all agree to abide by those rules in how we treat each other and how we live together.
04:53:15.420Do you see that if large numbers of Canadians repeatedly and for extended periods refuse or fail to abide by laws, by court orders, and so forth, do you think this has any effect on the willingness of other Canadians to follow the law themselves?
04:53:33.340I remain optimistic, and I would hope that the vast majority of Canadians would understand the importance of the rule of law.
04:53:47.380And, you know, we live in a, we talk about peace, order, good government, and Canada is one of the safest large cities, or excuse me, large countries in the world.
04:53:57.000And so I think that one of the reasons that it is such a livable country is because we all agree that the rule of law is important and should prevail.
04:54:08.440But let's say that they didn't. Let's say that large numbers of Canadians for a long period of time declined to obey the law, to abide by court orders, and so forth.
04:54:18.780Do you think that there would be a greater likelihood that others would take the law into their own hands, so to speak?
04:54:24.220I think when people lose confidence in the rule of law, when they lose confidence in their police services to uphold and maintain the rule of law, when they lose confidence in the criminal justice system to provide justice for everyone, like when that confidence is lost, then I think it's far more likely that people will ignore the law and would engage in criminal behavior.
04:54:44.420and in that situation do you see that it has any effect on the likelihood that there will be
04:54:50.180serious acts of violence committed by someone or other against persons or property i think as we
04:54:57.500saw the persistence of clearly unlawful and disorderly behaviors around these these convoys
04:55:03.900i think i think the situation in my opinion was escalating towards a greater likelihood
04:55:10.120of the violent outcome all right um i want to ask but one more area which is with respect to
04:55:18.060and mr cameron had asked about some uh this to some extent earlier i think you'd referenced it
04:55:23.720as well in your in later testimony but it's with respect to the implementation or execution of the
04:55:30.440ultimate public order operation that occurred in ottawa specifically after the invocation of the
04:55:36.380Emergencies Act. I wonder if we could call up pb.can.401805 underscore rel01 and it will be at
04:55:46.880one minute thirty five seconds. And while this is coming up Minister, in this inquiry there have
04:55:55.240been some evidence or suggestion that the enforcement operation in the City of Ottawa on February 18th
04:56:04.020following was excessively was conducted in an excessively brutal fashion one witness i believe
04:56:10.900suggested that they couldn't believe that something like this was happening in canada
04:56:16.020did you observe the public order operation at any time yes sir i did if we could when we get to the
04:56:23.060135 mark i'm going to show you what appears to be drone footage taken by the rcmp to record the
04:56:31.940execution of the public order operation on the 19th and i'll just let you observe that for a
04:56:36.180moment and then ask your comment on the execution and whether it is up to snuff
04:56:49.940and i'll note as we go that it appears that um in a certain point the footage
04:56:53.780will be sped up and that'll be indicated on the screen
05:05:34.700with the deployment of their uniformed officers.
05:05:37.420Another question, and this is about the relationship
05:05:42.780between the Solicitor General and the OPP
05:05:48.820or you, not you, but in your former role
05:05:53.240over the RCMP or even police services boards and I guess to use a concrete example is it
05:06:05.240appropriate in your view or could it be that the board or the Solicitor General give
05:06:14.280indicate its priority and to use a specific would it be improper for the Solicitor General
05:06:19.640of ontario to have said there are big problems in ottawa and in windsor our view is windsor is more
05:06:28.520important it's of course up to you but uh as far as the province is concerned our priority is
05:06:36.760windsor but it's your decision and sir i believe that is an operational decision the decision you
05:06:42.120just described in the deployment of their people i believe that's the responsibility of the
05:06:46.280commissioner in this case um and and and would be inappropriate to receive direction direction and
05:06:52.120and i if i may i'll just give you a quick example when i was the public safety minister
05:06:56.120um i only issued it one direction to the commissioner of the rcmp and it was a ministerial
05:07:00.760directive in writing which i made public and it was to require that they respond to a tip
05:07:07.240requests in a timely way and that was it and and and i was very careful not to sort of wade into
05:07:13.400this issue of operations so just just to pursue that so in this case even though it was just uh
05:07:21.720what the province would like but it's up to him that you think would be would still constitute
05:07:27.240interference i i think ultimately in my opinion the decision as to where he can safely deploy his
05:07:35.320people and do his job is an operational decision that i would i personally would have deferred to
05:07:41.400the commissioner okay uh and then there was a question you answered about whether you were
05:07:49.240aware that commissioner lucky had had said that there were still police tools available that had
05:07:56.280not been fully uh utilized i was not made aware i've subsequently heard to this inquiry um that
05:08:05.960that information was available but i was not aware of it on at that cabinet meeting now leaving
05:08:11.240Taking aside Commissioner Luckey's comments, were you aware that the police had tools available to it that they had not utilized?
05:08:21.880I believe that, I always believe, quite frankly, that the police have to utilize all of the tools that are available to them.
05:08:29.660And where they have an existing authority, then that authority is the one that should stand.
05:08:33.780But I had also come to believe, sir, that there were a number of circumstances and challenges that the police were facing.
05:08:41.240where they did not have the appropriate tools to deal with it they had not asked specifically and
05:08:46.200had not certainly asked me specifically for those tools but they had indicated you know the
05:08:51.080insufficiency of their existing authorities and and and and tools and and had indicated that
05:08:59.000that i believe was necessary for us to to remedy and address okay the uh
05:09:05.800you you made a mention and i'm not sure i've got the correct note when you were talking about the
05:09:17.800the deficiencies or the tools that were added by the emergencies act you talked about
05:09:23.800the financial and the fin track and you you mentioned the tow trucks i'm just trying to
05:09:29.240You did mention designated spaces, and I'm just trying to understand, because we've had a fair amount of evidence here, let's just say I'm not quite clear for sake of argument, on whether the common law powers to create exclusive zones, exclusion zones, was adequate to deal with the Ottawa situation,
05:09:54.240situation or whether it required the uh the the act the uh in uh emergencies act yes sir and and
05:10:04.880and i i've actually given some consideration to that i was a little bit concerned with the
05:10:09.520agreement that the city had attempted to enter into it it frankly kind of quickly fell apart
05:10:14.960because they had suggested that you know the trucks would park on wellington and so john a
05:10:19.520and in and not out of the residential area i understand their motivation but i was concerned
05:10:24.160it had the effect of potentially giving permission for those trucks to remain on wellington and sir
05:10:28.560john a which i think could have been problematic i i was also very mindful of the challenge that
05:10:34.800windsor had experienced because this had taken place in a municipal intersection and and our
05:10:40.400ability to designate that space because of its i think significant impact and vulnerability for