Juno News - Emergencies Act Inquiry – Bill Blair testifies

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00:07:58.000 Now, just before we start, if I could just, I just want to make a brief statement that from now on for the balance of the week, we will be hearing from a number of senior government ministers, including the prime minister and the deputy prime minister.

00:08:21.120 um the commission recognizes that this is exceptional and even more so as the house

00:08:28.720 as i understand it is sitting so the latter fact the fact the house is sitting is such that

00:08:36.400 uh it may require some accommodation for these witnesses in the event of votes the house of

00:08:43.440 commons or events requiring that they respond to pressing needs so i just wanted to put that

00:08:50.560 on the record so for parties it's also important that in the course of these examinations we not

00:08:58.320 lose sight of the reason that they are here to testify that is the subject matter of this inquiry

00:09:06.320 the examinations therefore must remain focused on this particularly in light of the limited time we

00:09:15.620 have finally as I have insisted throughout I will continue to insist that the conduct of

00:09:24.740 the public and indeed to the parties be respect respectful at all times which I'm sure everyone

00:09:32.960 understands so i just wanted to to say that because it's it uh we're sort of entering another

00:09:39.680 phase for the balance okay so with that introduction uh commission council

00:09:55.600 thank you commissioner uh gordon cameron for commission council and the first uh witness in

00:10:02.400 in this category of ministers is Minister Bill Blair.

00:10:10.120 If you could take the stand and he will be sworn.

00:10:26.440 Minister Blair, will you swear on a religious document

00:10:29.420 or do you wish to affirm?

00:10:31.120 on a Bible, please.

00:10:49.000 For the record, please state your full name

00:10:50.940 and spell it out.

00:10:52.180 My name is William Blair, B-L-A-I-R.

00:10:56.240 Do you swear that the evidence to be given by you

00:10:58.520 to this commission shall be the truth,

00:11:00.380 whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god thank you

00:11:21.020 good afternoon minister blair uh i'll begin just with some housekeeping some formalities

00:11:28.380 uh and in particular what i'm going to ask you to do is recall that you had an interview uh with

00:11:36.140 me and some of my colleagues on september 6th and uh for the record i'll note for parties that

00:11:43.180 the summary of that interview is wts seven zeros uh 48 um now minister blair if you had a chance

00:11:52.220 to review this witness summary that was prepared following your interview yes sir i have can you

00:11:57.660 confirm that it's accurate and that you adopted as part of your evidence before this proceeding

00:12:01.980 i can confirm that yes thank you now if we can just go through a little bit of background for

00:12:07.180 those who aren't already familiar with your uh role in the federal government recently and before

00:12:13.100 that um you were uh the minister of public safety from november 2019 to november to october 2021 is

00:12:23.900 that correct yes sir and in october of 2021 you were appointed and this is a long title

00:12:31.500 and it requires a bit of updating uh you were you were appointed as president of the queen's

00:12:36.460 privy council now uh you will be the president of the king's privy council i take it and also

00:12:42.860 uh as the minister of emergency preparedness is that right yes sir

00:12:47.180 um now in the prime minister's mandate letters that is the letters that the prime minister writes

00:12:54.940 for each of his ministers to describe what he expects from them during their tenure

00:13:01.340 uh the prime minister assigned leadership responsibilities uh regarding public safety

00:13:09.100 and emergency preparedness both to you uh minister blair uh and uh to minister mendocino

00:13:17.900 and so the question is can you help us understand how that division works under the umbrella of

00:13:27.020 the ministry of emergency preparedness and public safety yes sir as you noted earlier um i previously

00:13:35.900 held the position of minister of public safety and emergency preparedness quite frankly the

00:13:41.440 government recognized in in in the most recent past a significant increase in both the severity

00:13:46.900 complexity and frequency of national emergencies taking place in this country and so a decision

00:13:52.780 was made to bifurcate my my previous ministry um into the public safety which is a portfolio held

00:14:00.400 by my colleague and friend, Minister Mendicino, and Minister of Emergency Preparedness, which

00:14:05.740 is the portfolio that I am responsible for. Under that, I think there's a very clear delineation

00:14:10.740 of responsibilities, but there's a very close alignment between the work that I do and that

00:14:15.560 Minister Mendicino does. Mr. Mendicino is, for example, responsible under the Act for

00:14:20.820 five different, you know, significant agencies in the federal government, including the RCMP,

00:14:27.400 CVSA, CSIS, Corrections Canada, and the Parole Board.

00:14:31.040 And he also has a number of other significant responsibilities within his own mandate.

00:14:34.500 For myself, my responsibilities particularly pertain to ensuring that the government of Canada is prepared to respond effectively to all hazards and emergencies in this country,

00:14:47.160 to improve the way in which the government prepares and also creates greater resiliency in the country about these events.

00:14:54.300 Among the administrative processes I am also responsible for is I oversee requests for assistance that are received from the provinces and territories for assistance in the event of an emergency.

00:15:06.820 If I could just, if you could try and be a little slower for the interpreters because they have to translate everything you say and you have a tendency to have a high output.

00:15:17.960 Yes, sir. I'll certainly do my very best.

00:15:21.740 and and i would appreciate the occasional reminder that i think mr cameron's quite

00:15:25.180 prepared to provide um yeah the the scribes at the interview uh got lost after a few minutes

00:15:36.860 of the interview um now if if that that's a helpful description minister blair of the division

00:15:44.700 between uh the two uh parts of public safety and emergency preparedness here's a something that's

00:15:52.380 more challenging for all of us is if you can describe for us your role as president of the

00:15:58.300 king's privy council and how that uh what what role you play there i i'll remind you just as a

00:16:07.500 place to start that among other things you chair the sse committee the safety security and

00:16:13.020 emergencies committee but writ large can you describe that office and what responsibilities

00:16:18.700 come with it there are within federal legislation certain um federal agencies such as the transportation

00:16:24.860 safety board that is answers directly to the president of now the king's privy council but it

00:16:31.820 also is important to recognize the very the close collaboration that exists between my responsibilities

00:16:38.540 as the president of king's privy council and the work of of of of the of the privy council office

00:16:44.620 in within the federal government um it it requires in addition to my responsibilities in in sharing

00:16:51.900 for example the ssc committee the safety security and emergency committee a very close collaboration

00:16:57.100 with the privy council office i i have for example within pco a deputy secretary ms bogdan i believe

00:17:05.580 you've heard from who i work very closely with on on matters of emergency preparedness and with

00:17:10.700 respect to other um cabinet related issues i work very closely with the deputy clerk mr ann as well

00:17:18.460 right and something we'll come back to uh in a little bit of detail and a little later in this

00:17:26.620 examination one of the functions of of your office includes handling requests for assistance what

00:17:34.380 we've now learned to call rfas uh where somebody from a level of government lower than the federal

00:17:42.060 government asks for the assistance of the federal government in some particular sphere can you tell

00:17:46.700 us just broadly speaking how that works as we'll come to the one specific to the convoy in a minute

00:17:52.300 but just broadly how that process works yes sir um there is a provision within our government

00:17:58.860 for provinces and territories to make requests of our government for assistance for certain types

00:18:05.340 of emergencies the the criteria is reasonably well established um in the past two years i've

00:18:11.340 been responsible for um well since the beginning of the pandemic i've actually managed about 200

00:18:17.180 requests for assistance that the government has received from our provincial and territorial

00:18:21.020 partners these can take a number of different forms um it there were quite a number of them

00:18:25.900 related to um the pandemic in particular but also in the in the advent of floods and fires

00:18:33.020 the hurricanes that recently took place in atlantic canada all can result when when events

00:18:39.420 exceed the capacity of the provinces and territories to manage it the rfa process allows

00:18:45.420 them to reach out for assistance um and and and whatever we're able to provide it is my

00:18:52.140 responsibility to arrange that much of that work is done with other federal departments public

00:18:56.620 safety the department of national defense and others but to ensure that whatever federal

00:19:02.060 supports can be provided to the provinces and territories we do that as expeditiously as

00:19:06.300 possible and can you describe to me the level of of formality that that process follows

00:19:13.500 and it's probably not the same in every case but sometimes it's a phone call perhaps followed up

00:19:18.540 later by writing sometimes writing followed up later by a phone call but can you describe for

00:19:23.500 the commissioner just how the process tends to take place in the example of a typical flood or

00:19:30.220 hurricane in my experience sir and as i said we've done now a couple of hundred of these

00:19:34.460 senior officials usually begin talking very quickly even in anticipation of an emergency

00:19:40.140 for example if we know a hurricane is coming um or at the beginning of the wildfire season

00:19:45.900 communications begin to take place between senior officials in both either the province or territory

00:19:51.420 and our federal departments whichever is implicated most of that is managed through

00:19:55.500 the ministry of public safety um and and for example in my experience most of that work has

00:19:59.980 been done by deputy uh stewart who i think you've also heard from there's usually discussions that

00:20:05.660 take place between senior officials there is also a table of senior officials sometimes referred to

00:20:11.020 who is the senior officials responsible

00:20:13.060 for emergency management, Sorum,

00:20:15.960 who also engages in these types of discussions.

00:20:19.060 That's usually followed up very quickly

00:20:20.740 by a formal letter of request from the province

00:20:23.740 or territory that is directed

00:20:26.060 to the Ministry of Public Safety

00:20:27.780 and then on to me for determination.

00:20:31.120 But we tried to work as quickly as possible

00:20:33.240 in order to see whatever helps we can provide

00:20:37.300 in response to those requests.

00:20:39.180 then and then through again deputy steward our response to that request is prepared to which

00:20:45.500 i'm able to to then hopefully quickly respond so so if the hurricane's coming up the coast you

00:20:50.700 don't wait till the letter arrives before you start mobilizing of response to a request no and

00:20:56.620 in fact in our most recent experience with hurricane fiona's it was as it was moving to

00:21:01.420 atlantic canada we were receiving very good um forecasting from environment canada which gave

00:21:09.020 us a pretty good idea of where that hurricane was going to land and so there were conversations that

00:21:13.580 began days in advance so that we could be better prepared and mobilize and even stage resources in

00:21:19.980 order to respond to what we knew was going to be a significant impact on the on those regions of

00:21:25.100 the country and that we would be able to work closely together as quickly as possible there

00:21:30.060 are a number of other programs as well and for example i'm also responsible for what we refer

00:21:35.900 to as the humanitarian workforce where we work very closely with with ngos such as the canadian

00:21:40.780 red cross and and stage those resources and begin to register people well in in advance of the

00:21:46.380 hurricane in that case so that we can respond as quickly as possible in real time to help people

00:21:51.580 be safe and and i assume that if you do uh act immediately before the paperwork arrives

00:21:59.820 there will nonetheless be the requirement for the orderly administration and documentation

00:22:04.220 of the rfa that the paperwork eventually come through and then the request be properly documented

00:22:10.780 yes sir those those requests are are properly documented but we don't necessarily wait for the

00:22:15.180 paperwork sometimes in in there have been very limited circumstances where the paperwork arrive

00:22:20.140 first and then we start responding to that immediately but in the vast majority of cases

00:22:24.620 there's outreach from the province and territory who identify a situation that exceeds their

00:22:29.500 capacity where they where they seek our help and then we undertake immediately to see if we could

00:22:33.900 find that help within the federal government thank you now if you can describe uh

00:22:42.620 perhaps well certainly atypically relative to most other government departments

00:22:48.220 you are lodged so to speak in the privy council office and supported by by people uh

00:22:55.820 and also in the Privy Council Office.

00:22:58.820 And one of the people also there is the National Security Intelligence Advisor, Jody Thomas.

00:23:04.820 If you could describe for us how you, as Minister of Emergency Preparedness,

00:23:09.820 work with or relate with, interact with the National Security Intelligence Advisor.

00:23:15.820 Yes, the National Security Intelligence Advisor is actually a very important source of guidance, advice, and information

00:23:21.820 our preparation in order to respond appropriately to emergencies um i in a number of different

00:23:28.220 capacities including like that i chair the safety security emergency committee but even in our daily

00:23:34.780 and weekly interactions the national security intelligence advisor is a person who gathers

00:23:40.300 information from the national security intelligence establishment from law enforcement and from other

00:23:46.460 resources and provides it to government including to me to assist us in making sure that we're able

00:23:52.220 to do our duties in a timely way and be well informed of what government needs to know in

00:23:57.260 order to to keep people safe thank you now we've we've uh had as you probably know already

00:24:04.940 testifying among the senior government officials who who uh testified last week uh jack and

00:24:12.220 bogdan and jeff hutchinson uh maybe you could just remind us now that you're here uh where they fit

00:24:19.900 in the scheme of of your department of emergency preparedness yes sir when the government decided

00:24:26.460 when the prime minister decided that to place a special emphasis and create a unique ministry

00:24:31.020 dealing with emergency preparedness we recognized that in order to make that work we also had to

00:24:36.540 fundamentally change the way in which the public service through the privy council office organizes

00:24:41.900 itself in response to preparation for emergency and and so there there was decisions made within

00:24:48.300 pco by the clerk in order to create some additional positions within the privy council office

00:24:53.900 to to essentially create an office to to more formalize and i think to make more effective

00:25:01.180 the government's response to emergencies and and in our preparation in in a wide variety of a very

00:25:07.340 significant spectrum of activities including increased resilience investment in critical

00:25:11.740 infrastructure um and and in all hazards approach and it was also i think very important to make

00:25:17.340 connections one of the things i have found in my my responsibility sir and working with pco that

00:25:23.100 that emergencies are not uniquely located within any one ministry or department that is they're

00:25:29.580 very often implicate like a whole of government we learned that certainly in the floods for example

00:25:34.140 in british columbia where you know initially when i when i went to british columbia with

00:25:38.380 the prime minister to meet with the provincial government you know we looked at it as a an

00:25:42.380 emergency response to a flood but very quickly learned that agriculture transportation fisheries

00:25:47.980 and oceans natural resources environment canada of all of these different departments of government

00:25:53.100 were deeply implicated in that emergency and so one of my responsibilities working with pco and

00:25:58.860 and Ms. Bogdan, is in a convening role to bring all of the departments together

00:26:02.820 and bring senior officials to make sure that all of government

00:26:05.960 is responding appropriately as necessary to every emergency.

00:26:11.040 And so a decision was made.

00:26:12.600 Ms. Bogdan was brought in as the Deputy Secretary responsible for emergency management,

00:26:17.120 and she also has responsibility for the COVID response of the government.

00:26:22.540 She's also overseeing that.

00:26:24.520 And Mr. Hutchison was also brought in and serves in a number of different roles,

00:26:31.160 including he is secretary to the cabinet committee that I chair, the Safety, Security, and Emergencies Committee.

00:26:38.400 He's also acted as secretary in other duties that I've been assigned by the prime minister.

00:26:43.620 And, for example, I co-chaired with British Columbia, a committee with the British Columbia government

00:26:49.440 involving all the ministers and it's very significant representation from first nations

00:26:54.300 leadership in in coordinating all of government's response to to the to the floods and jeff acted as

00:27:00.720 the secretary for that committee as well okay and and a a third uh name that we're going to encounter

00:27:07.640 uh uh in some of the documents and that those who have been following will have will have seen

00:27:14.000 already zita astravis uh can you describe what her role is in your department yes zita is the chief

00:27:21.600 of staff for my ministry office i have within my ministry office people who are responsible

00:27:26.880 for policy development as it pertains to emergencies with with communications and media

00:27:31.760 relations and finally with operations because we engage with every region of the country

00:27:36.640 and and all the people that work in that office are overseen by my chief of staff zita astravis

00:27:43.760 she is a very serious and experienced political staffer within the ministry office and she

00:27:50.400 previously served as my chief of staff when i was the minister of public safety now um

00:28:00.560 again people who've been uh who've been following this proceeding or following the original events

00:28:06.720 we'll know that uh there's another part of your background that ended up assuming special

00:28:12.640 significance as these events unfolded in january and february and that was your first career as a

00:28:19.200 police officer and ultimately the chief of police of the toronto police service uh first of all can

00:28:24.080 you describe in broad strokes what that experience was and then i'll bring you back to the to the

00:28:30.880 particular public order experience that that you had in those roles yes mr cameron i joined the

00:28:37.120 toronto police service in 1976 i served as a toronto police officer for 39 years and from

00:28:43.520 for the last 10 years of that my 39 year career um from 2005 until until 2015 i was the chief of

00:28:51.680 police of the city of toronto um and in that capacity i served in a number of roles and that

00:28:58.720 were somewhat related to um the events that transpired right now as i understand it as you

00:29:07.440 were coming up the ranks uh you in fact served a term as an inspector of a public order unit itself

00:29:16.240 that is the actual unit that goes out and deals with public order uh incidents yes yes sir i was

00:29:23.120 public order trained and i served as a public order incident commander um for very very many

00:29:29.360 public order incidents in the city of toronto over a number of years okay now the one that that

00:29:35.520 often gets uh remembered because it was it was so newsworthy was the g20 uh event in toronto which

00:29:45.520 ended up being a public order event as well as its political event on its own.

00:29:53.360 And you played a role in that, but it would probably be helpful if you described what role

00:29:58.720 you played, what role you didn't play, and roughly how that, what you learned from that experience.

00:30:05.360 Yes, sir. The G20, it occurred in June of 2010 in the city of Toronto. It was a planned event.

00:30:15.360 I was, throughout that entire period of time, the chief of police, and therefore responsible for policing in my city.

00:30:21.780 But the event itself was actually headed up by an integrated command structure with a gold, silver, bronze command structure that was put in place,

00:30:31.240 the leadership of which was with the RCMP, but also it had representatives from my service, but also from some of the regional services around it and the OPP.

00:30:41.720 and they were actually responsible for the operational response to the g20 but throughout

00:30:48.120 that period i was the chief of police and therefore ultimately responsible for every

00:30:52.520 policing related matter taking place in my city right and as you mentioned uh probably in a

00:31:01.560 30-odd year career and especially ten as chief of police there were more than just the g20 event and

00:31:07.080 And the one other perhaps event or series of events that was memorable during that period when you were chief of police were the Tamil protests in Toronto.

00:31:19.420 And I mention them because you might find some similarities with some of the events that happened around Ottawa.

00:31:27.060 And if you could just tell us about those events and how they were resolved, at least as best as you can recollect it.

00:31:33.840 Yes, sir.

00:31:34.260 that took place in may of 2009 um it was a period in which there was a great deal of concern within

00:31:40.740 the tamil community and there's a very substantial tamil community in the greater toronto area

00:31:44.580 about events that were taking place in sri lanka at that particular time i mean as a consequence

00:31:50.020 a number of people came out onto the streets to begin to protest there were two frankly significant

00:31:55.700 and somewhat distinct um matters that i had to deal with as the chief of police during that event

00:32:00.420 On Mother's Day of 2009, about 5,000 people from the Tamil community were demonstrating and marching

00:32:08.400 and unfortunately went up on a ramp of the Gardner Expressway and ended up on the elevated highway that runs through downtown Toronto.

00:32:17.560 I was called because, of course, they had blocked the highway.

00:32:20.620 It wasn't a particularly serious traffic issue because it was Mother's Day, a Sunday evening and not too concerning.

00:32:27.000 But I heard from my operational commanders that evening that there were no safe ways to remove those people from the bridge.

00:32:35.800 There was a real concern because the guardrail really is for vehicles, not for pedestrians.

00:32:41.260 There were children and elderly people up on that elevated highway.

00:32:45.640 And there was a very sincere concern among my officers that any action that we might take to remove them from the bridge or even bring them down the ramp could result in a stampede,

00:32:54.420 crushing of people and would just be simply too dangerous and so i directed that we would slow

00:33:01.140 down that we would engage with the people that were on the bridge we would find people that we

00:33:07.540 could talk to on the bridge and that took a couple of hours and then eventually i engaged them in

00:33:12.660 some conversation i had a pretty good relationship with that community and found a way to have them

00:33:17.380 safely come down off that bridge. And it was, in my opinion, an entirely appropriate and safe

00:33:24.260 resolution of what could have potentially been a very dangerous situation. The other element to

00:33:29.900 this is tens of thousands of people initially converged on University Avenue in the area of

00:33:35.540 University of Armory, which is right near the 361, our superior courts in Toronto, but also right

00:33:41.980 opposite the u.s consulate and initially when they went there it was it was considered quite

00:33:47.500 disruptive it was noisy and it was interfering with traffic but very quickly we were able to

00:33:52.700 work with that crowd to allow the ttc for example to operate on both queen and dundas so that the

00:33:58.780 transit would continue to move those are pretty important transit routes in the city we also were

00:34:03.580 concerned about accessing egress for our hospitals on hospital row on university avenue we worked out

00:34:09.580 with them a way in which we could do that and and although that protest went on for several days

00:34:15.340 and there were concerns actually being expressed by the time i remember hearing from spirit court

00:34:20.060 judges about the noise outside the courtrooms um but but at the same time you know there was very

00:34:25.100 little residential in in that area um i would also want to acknowledge the people that were protesting

00:34:31.180 did so in a very respectful way they cleaned up after themselves you know they were on the street

00:34:35.660 they were very seriously concerned but but i think that was a situation that in toronto

00:34:40.300 we were able to resolve appropriately and safely um and and and eventually i i think it actually

00:34:46.860 strengthened our relationship very much with that community and and if i if i recollect accounts of

00:34:51.980 those events one of the things you were able to accomplish with that demonstration was was to move

00:34:57.100 it from uh an arguably illegal demonstration in the sense that it was blocking university avenue

00:35:04.300 to a location nearby where the demonstration could continue but not be obstructing traffic

00:35:10.340 and potentially breaking the law.

00:35:13.020 Yes, sir.

00:35:13.500 And actually, that was based on some experience that we'd had in that particular area as well.

00:35:17.360 I also remember in the late 90s, there were very significant demonstrations among two

00:35:21.320 other communities serving in Croatian at that same location, and we worked very closely

00:35:25.520 with those protesters to allow them to engage in their lawful peaceful protests, but do

00:35:31.400 in a way that minimized the disruption to traffic to the movement of people and to the functioning of

00:35:36.680 basically the city's daily life all around them and as an incident commander a public order

00:35:46.120 senior police officer how do you factor in that particular attempted transition that is you you

00:35:54.040 encounter a public order incident ideally you're able to keep it legal from beginning to end

00:36:00.040 But when it starts to transition into illegality, either because it's obstructing traffic or violating some other law, where in your ranking of objectives do you put turning what has become an unlawful protest into a lawful protest?

00:36:20.820 I think it's important.

00:36:23.520 Frankly, I actually very sincerely believe in the right to lawful peaceful protest.

00:36:27.080 It's a protected charter right in this country.

00:36:29.700 sometimes it can be a challenge it can be very difficult to manage these events but but i think

00:36:36.180 when we if if the protesters are willing to work with the police and if the police work with them

00:36:41.700 there are always some individuals who will push the limit and sometimes will break the law and

00:36:47.540 and there are ways to deal with those individuals but but in my experience it is

00:36:52.900 always preferable if you're able to to minimize the impact and to facilitate lawful peaceful

00:37:00.500 protest um while not allowing unlawful protest or a risk of public safety and we you might not have

00:37:08.260 monitored this part of the evidence but we had a similar discussion with deputy commissioners

00:37:12.340 oblocki of the rcmp about this attempt that the rcmp took in in in and near coots alberta to

00:37:20.260 find a legal way for the protest to continue and and let me ask you if you find if you found in

00:37:28.660 those days when you were doing this the same tension because the protesters want to be visible

00:37:34.260 they want in effect cause at least enough of a nuisance that they're noticed and that they're

00:37:38.900 able to make their point and be heard and yet you want them to be as little a nuisance as possible

00:37:46.580 And is that a tension that your forces and the people you have as your liaison team are trained to try and sort out?

00:37:55.740 Well, if I may, just let me cite as an example.

00:37:58.300 During the G20, we designated certain places where we wanted to facilitate lawful, peaceful protests.

00:38:04.660 And, for example, over at Queen's Park, we said, you know, if you gather there, you'll be able to protest.

00:38:10.960 And some people were quite willing to do that, but unfortunately not everybody is.

00:38:14.360 And then some people, you know, prefer to be, you know, to disrupt traffic or in the case of the G20, unfortunately, it also resulted in a set of circumstances where there was significant property damage, fires were set and windows were smashed.

00:38:29.220 But I think it's important to distinguish there are always people who seek only to engage in lawful, peaceful protests.

00:38:39.880 And I think it's our responsibility, and I say our, forgive me, it's the police responsibility to facilitate that to every extent possible.

00:38:48.900 And, unfortunately, there are also, in some circumstances, people who choose to engage in unlawful behavior and don't engage in lawful but rather unlawful protest, and then there has to be whatever action is required in order to curtail that.

00:39:06.320 Right. Now, coming to the events in question, as the matters were developing, there was a series of what ended up getting called briefings on truckers' convoy among ministers and senior officials in the government.

00:39:29.460 And it looks from our account of the documentation that you attended, probably all of them or almost all of them.

00:39:39.720 Is that your recollection?

00:39:41.000 I believe almost all of them, yes.

00:39:42.820 Yes.

00:39:45.200 There was one on January 28th, and I'm going to ask the clerk to call up SSM NSC CAN 50251.

00:39:59.460 and uh if you can mr kirger if you can just scroll down there's a there's a point where

00:40:13.940 we have a number 18 and uh blair there we go and these are the this is the uh

00:40:22.180 the notes of of that uh the readout as it's called of that meeting and uh do i understand

00:40:31.540 the way this is laid out correctly that uh beside the number 18 in your name are a series of of

00:40:36.820 points that you were making at the meeting yes sir the one i'm uh going to ask you to talk about is

00:40:43.540 see uh we need to keep the language down and uh probably the people in the room knew what you

00:40:53.860 were talking about and you probably used more words than just that so if you could flesh that

00:40:57.940 out for us what what you were what message you were trying to get across uh during that briefing

00:41:04.020 when you said we need to keep the language down i believe we all have a responsibility to do what

00:41:10.340 is necessary to keep the peace and and i was concerned that inflammatory language could

00:41:16.820 say incite a more violent response potentially um or or in in incite others to continue to

00:41:25.860 to come to the protest and and so i think one one needs to maintain and i've had some experience in

00:41:33.220 this um in in your language around an event to to speak of it in such a way as to not aggravate it

00:41:42.660 so um minimize name calling and uh that kind of thing is i just don't normally engage in name

00:41:50.100 calling sir right uh but is that what you mean by keep the language down keep keep the rhetoric

00:41:56.660 moderate on the on the government side on the protester side i i believe in in my experience

00:42:03.780 sometimes people live down to your expectations and so one one should be careful in in right in

00:42:08.900 in how you speak of these events i also quite frankly i'm always concerned about fear i think

00:42:14.180 fear is one of the greatest enemies of public safety and and i think if our if our language

00:42:18.740 is intemperate we can make people quite fearful and and if people are fearful then they don't

00:42:24.180 use public space they don't engage with their neighbors it can actually create a more dangerous

00:42:28.020 situation and and so my advice to colleagues was that we would remain tempered in our language

00:42:38.260 um i'd like to move now to another topic area that uh

00:42:47.060 it's apparent that you you took a role in and i i and and that has to do with the arrangement of

00:42:52.500 what were called perhaps it was ended up being a misnomer but what and what were originally called

00:43:00.260 the tripartite meetings uh can you describe first of all what those were meant to be

00:43:06.740 to situate them in in time if it assists you they were february 7th 8th and 10th the ones that

00:43:12.260 started it off but if you can just tell us what you had hoped to accomplish uh with those meetings

00:43:17.940 yes sir it was my intention to convene all three orders of government to bring them to a table

00:43:25.220 because i i believe that all three orders of government had a role and responsibility here

00:43:31.060 i believe that good communication between all three orders of government could have been

00:43:35.220 facilitated by convening you know a meeting among initially it was attempted to to do so with at

00:43:43.220 at the political level.

00:43:46.140 And as you said, it wasn't entirely successful,

00:43:49.020 but I believe what we were able to achieve

00:43:51.120 is convening officials to come to that table

00:43:55.140 because I believe that the events

00:43:57.120 that were transpiring in Ottawa

00:43:59.260 really did require good communication,

00:44:01.460 clear expectations and communications

00:44:06.100 and how we could assist each other.

00:44:08.700 All of us had a responsibility,

00:44:10.420 all of us had a role to play.

00:44:11.680 And I was attempting to convene that.

00:44:14.400 And by the way, not inconsistent with the role that I also play, as I mentioned earlier,

00:44:18.620 in convening other orders of ministries within my own government,

00:44:23.200 I've learned the value of bringing people together from many different disciplines

00:44:26.860 and authorities to be at the table to share perspectives and to help each other.

00:44:33.900 There's two topics I'd like to see if we can talk about,

00:44:37.220 and I'll see if we can do it without pulling out too many documents,

00:44:42.740 but just going by your memories of these meetings.

00:44:49.220 And I'll just describe the topics and then we'll try to treat them one at a time,

00:44:54.020 though they might end up getting blended together.

00:44:56.420 One is the fact that you didn't succeed in getting Ontario at the political level

00:45:02.500 to the table, as I think had been your ambition.

00:45:05.620 but the other topic is is why there seemed you know in at least the records of these meetings so

00:45:11.700 much uh confusion or misunderstanding uh between the city of ottawa and the federal government and

00:45:19.700 to the extent they were there officials of the ontario government about which resources would

00:45:25.460 be committed by whom when who was actually there etc the documents just seem to be the equivalent

00:45:32.980 of a whole bunch of ships passing in the night and nobody understanding what the other person's

00:45:37.620 saying and perhaps even a lot of mistrust so let's take the first of those issues the the the effort

00:45:43.940 you made to include the province of ontario and how much success you had there well first of all

00:45:49.460 i i reached out to minister jones who was the solicitor general in the province of ontario

00:45:53.940 at that time um i've had i've enjoyed a very long-standing and very positive professional

00:45:58.740 working relationship with minister jones i i reached out to to extend an invitation for her

00:46:04.260 to join that table um mr joint jones indicated to me during the one call i had with her uh that

00:46:10.740 that you know she would consider the invitation but she did express some concern and i understood

00:46:15.460 that concern and i acknowledged that to her she expressed some concern that she did not want to

00:46:19.540 be seen to be directing the police and and actually we had a very brief exchange um because i'm also

00:46:26.100 very familiar as she was with the linden commission report on the upper wash event and and i and i

00:46:31.940 think there is an actual sensitivity and concern among ontario officials about um any appearance

00:46:39.620 of being seen to direct the police um i i would also acknowledge uh minister mendicino who has

00:46:46.500 a direct working reporting relationship he is the he is essentially minister jones counterpart he

00:46:52.100 also had a number of conversations with her and with the premier at the time i in my but in my

00:46:56.500 one conversation um with the with the sister general i i sought to offer to make the invitation

00:47:04.020 and to provide her with assurances about what my intent was in convening that that table um

00:47:10.900 um mr clerk perhaps you could call up uh ssm nsc can four zeros 2676

00:47:25.940 and just start at the top so we can orient ourselves with what this document is

00:47:32.980 that's got a nice helpful heading there tripart meeting readout

00:47:37.860 and uh uh this is a february 10th meeting and so mr clerk if you could scroll down to uh about page

00:47:50.660 three thank you um and uh

00:47:59.620 is just a little further please mr clerk so we get mr players their minister bears comments there

00:48:09.700 and under bb which is doubtless you uh there's this uh notation thanks if we can speak frankly

00:48:19.180 for a moment it has come to the media's discussion that they are not in this meeting for the third

00:48:25.000 day uh and are we understanding this correctly that they is ontario yes sir and so this is the

00:48:34.680 third of your three attempts to table a tripart meeting and the third uh time that ontario is

00:48:42.600 missing in action and uh you refer to a statement from ontario that that your meetings will

00:48:51.320 accomplish nothing is that what you're saying there is that what you've heard from ontario

00:48:56.440 i i believe that's what i'm referencing too i don't have a memory of that statement at this

00:49:00.760 moment but i i think clearly my statement my comment here is that there was a statement

00:49:06.360 suggesting the table would accomplish nothing right and then there's there's a

00:49:12.120 uh a discussion between you and and uh i take it that's you and the mayor uh yes sir myself the

00:49:23.160 mayor i believe as well i believe the city manager and minister mendicino of course we're on that

00:49:28.680 right um and and there's you say good point and then sorry the mayor says good point and you say

00:49:36.360 You refine a point he's trying to make, and then the mayor says in the third line,

00:49:46.900 I can say that I'm disappointed that the province has not come to the table.

00:49:51.680 Premier is telling me, and then he's quoting, it appears, what the premier is telling him,

00:49:57.860 anything you want, but then there is silence.

00:50:02.500 now we've already heard from the mayor and he's given his side of this but but from your perspective

00:50:10.660 was were you uh disappointed that ontario hadn't participated in these meetings so far was it your

00:50:17.380 sense that the mayor was also disappointed that that ontario at least at the level you

00:50:21.940 would hope to have participation hadn't shown up at the meetings frankly i i had hoped that that

00:50:29.380 we would be able to convene the the tripartite table as i had originally uh planned it but but

00:50:36.100 i was you know this this was on the 10th by that date i was receiving assurances that you know for

00:50:43.060 example deputy minister was in regular deputy minister stewart was in regular contact with his

00:50:47.140 counterpart in ontario deputy minister um di tomaso and and that there was ongoing discussions

00:50:53.220 between my government operations center between the deputy minister of public safety and and between

00:50:58.420 as as frankly the deputy minister of public safety mr stewart was acting as as as an

00:51:03.780 interlocutor between both municipality and the province in these circumstances and and and so

00:51:28.420 .

00:51:58.420 .

00:52:28.420 .

00:52:58.420 .

00:53:28.420 .

00:53:58.420 Thank you.

00:54:28.420 But what we were seeking was assurances from those who did have operational responsibilities

00:54:34.100 that they were satisfied with an integrated operational plan, an action plan that they

00:54:40.220 were prepared to action.

00:54:42.120 That, I think, was a consideration.

00:54:45.860 Because it's also useful to remember, I think, Mr. Cameron, there were a number of things

00:54:50.980 happening right across the country at the time.

00:54:53.540 You know, the OPP in particular were dealing with a difficult situation in Windsor.

00:54:56.980 They had also had to respond to other events across southern Ontario.

00:55:03.040 Their resources were being quite significantly challenged because they had to continue to respond to a very dynamic and mobile threat across the country.

00:55:12.880 And so my understanding was that, you know, they needed the clarity of an integrated command action plan

00:55:23.140 that they'd all agreed to in order to facilitate the movement of people to go and deal with the situation in Arwa.

00:55:29.300 And in that context, did you have a view as to whether there was any logical order of operations,

00:55:40.260 if i can call it that way in terms of uh where ottawa should look to first uh we we have heard

00:55:48.820 from commissioner lucky that she wasn't standing on protocol here she was prepared to devote

00:55:54.420 resources uh as quickly as she could while while ottawa sought uh sought help from the province as

00:56:02.980 well but putting aside those urgent first steps that were taken did you have a sense of what the

00:56:11.700 proper protocol was for Ottawa to follow in this context putting in mind both the hatch we're wearing

00:56:17.540 as Minister of Emergency Preparedness and your history of having encountered similar situations

00:56:22.820 Douglas over many years in Toronto. Yes sir to be very clear there's a number of different ways in

00:56:27.300 which this has been uh particularly if there's a planned event a planned event as i've already

00:56:32.820 mentioned the g20 in 2010 there was another plan that i was involved in involving

00:56:52.420 structure put in place at the time i actually brought about 400

00:56:56.260 Toronto Police Service officers up here to Ottawa to work under that integrated command structure

00:57:00.740 and to assist in public order for that event. I'm also aware, because I've been around a long time,

00:57:09.140 that there was always a very close working relationship between all of the police

00:57:14.500 services working in the National Capital Region. They convened a table that they refer to as

00:57:18.580 Intersect. I've had no dealings with it in the recent period, but I was familiar with it

00:57:24.660 when i was a police chief where the rcmp worked very closely with the ontario or the ottawa police

00:57:29.940 service i believe the opp were at the table and the gatineau police and and so there's always been

00:57:35.140 good cooperation among the police services in the national capital region i'm also very familiar

00:57:41.140 that i've i've been involved in very many instances when i was a police officer where we

00:57:46.260 would in the toronto police service we had frankly a lot of people we had a lot of people trained in

00:57:50.900 public order and we would bring our public order resources to assist in in in kingston for example

00:57:56.100 for their homecoming event i mean

00:58:20.900 to make a request to the commissioner of the opp and the commissioners is required under that act

00:58:36.660 to respond you may also make a request to a municipal another municipal police service

00:58:40.860 and and that municipal police service has the ability to decline but there is a provision

00:58:46.400 whereby a police service dealing with an emergency exceeding their capacity to manage

00:58:51.920 can also within the act um make an appeal and a request to the to the opp

00:59:16.400 .

00:59:46.400 .

01:00:16.400 organization team put together that doesn't work if the event manifests itself over the course of

01:00:29.840 a weekend and so one thing that the commissioner might be interested in in your views on is whether

01:00:36.800 it would assist matters to have a protocol in place so that there isn't quite as much confusion

01:00:44.780 and disagreement about whose responsibility it is to who goes where and who provides what

01:00:51.940 to have a protocol in place and perhaps even stand by memorandum memoranda of understanding

01:00:58.900 or something so that it within days rather than weeks everybody knows who goes where whose

01:01:05.140 responsibilities are what and the matter hopefully gets sorted out more quickly yes sir i believe

01:01:10.940 good communications, and to the extent that it is possible to plan for an unplanned event,

01:01:17.140 those types of arrangements can be very useful. I've actually had the experience as a police

01:01:22.320 chief making arrangements with other police services in the event of emergency, how many

01:01:27.020 people I would send them and how quickly I'd be able to get them there. Because we all know that

01:01:32.440 certain types of events can exceed any of our capacity to respond to an emergency. Planned

01:01:38.300 events is actually pretty straightforward and I believe that we've got a long history and a lot

01:01:42.460 of success in in dealing with I say I'll stop saying we sir it's in my previous capacity um the

01:01:49.040 police services have a long history of working very collaboratively together for planned events

01:01:53.780 and and a number of different things are worked out well in advance including the integrated

01:01:59.740 command structure who's going to who's going to be in charge a a what they call what they're often

01:02:05.060 referred to as a gold silver command structure that is put in place who's paying for what and

01:02:10.340 etc what resources and obligations each of them will undertake to to provide is usually worked

01:02:17.800 out well in advance it is quite frankly more challenging in the event of an emergency and

01:02:23.100 made even more challenging when that emergency might be taking place in multiple jurisdictions

01:02:26.920 The speed with which you're able to deliver information, Minister Blair, is helpful, if

01:02:46.820 not to the translators, to me in getting through my questions in record time.

01:02:53.800 so I'm flipping through some pages here.

01:02:58.980 I wanna ask you some questions about a related issue.

01:03:03.300 You talked about IPRWASH.

01:03:05.580 You had the probably not entirely pleasant experience

01:03:09.780 of having a commission of inquiry look into the events

01:03:13.160 of the G20.

01:03:18.920 Not an entirely pleasant experience

01:03:20.500 having your conduct examined in a commission of inquiry.

01:03:26.320 And one of the issues that came up

01:03:28.260 in the Morden inquiry into the G20 event

01:03:32.760 and in IPRWASH as well,

01:03:35.020 had to do with the extent of administrative oversight

01:03:39.260 and political input to the activities of the police.

01:03:43.260 And so, again, with your long policing experience

01:03:48.260 and your role now as a Minister of the Crown,

01:03:54.520 can you start by giving us an overview of how you see either Police Board

01:04:02.320 or other levels of government officialdom oversight of police,

01:04:08.260 where you see that fits in and how you view what has been called in this hearing so far

01:04:15.160 sometimes the line between church and state or the conundrum of how much uh police forces should

01:04:22.760 resist political interference and that whole topic thank you sir if i may first of all just

01:04:28.920 a point of clarification justice morden's report although a very important report was not a public

01:04:33.080 inquiry it was a report commissioned by the toronto police services board um in the in the

01:04:38.120 aftermath of that report there was also another public report done by the office of the independent

01:04:42.440 police review director mr jerry mcnealy also on that report but also not a public inquiry thank

01:04:48.520 you one of the things i i can share with you sir i was a police chief for 10 years i was appointed

01:04:55.400 by the police services board the police services board is constituted under the police services

01:04:59.800 act it's defined on on its duties and responsibilities and how and how it's comprised

01:05:05.960 i very firmly believe very sincerely believe that good policing requires good governance

01:05:12.440 And governance is not to suggest, sir, that a police services board or the governance authority will direct the police in their investigations, in their operations, will even direct them in the administration of their police service.

01:05:26.080 That's not the function of good governance.

01:05:28.520 The function of good governance, in my experience, is oversight and accountability.

01:05:34.320 And I think it's fairly well articulated in a number of provincial statutes across the country, including the Ontario Police Services Act.

01:05:41.280 In my own personal experience, I used to meet with my board every month for several hours over the course of a day.

01:05:49.760 It was done in public. Some of it was in camera, much of it was in public.

01:05:54.200 They would ask me questions about use of force. They would ask me about training.

01:05:58.360 They would ask me about HR issues, the discipline and maintaining of conduct within my organization.

01:06:05.700 I reported to them in a very public way about our engagement with diverse communities, about a number of efforts that we were making to prevent crime, all those things that were the responsibility of the police service to deliver adequate and effective police service.

01:06:19.420 And that's actually directed at the board and then designated to delegated to me by the board.

01:06:25.060 The police have extraordinary authorities in our society, but those are not unfettered authorities.

01:06:31.500 I think there's an expectation that we will be held to account for the way we use those authorities

01:06:38.300 and that there will be independent civilian oversight of policing activities.

01:06:44.680 And I believe that's absolutely key.

01:06:46.700 There is no good policing without good governance.

01:06:48.960 Sorry, slow down and say that again, please.

01:06:50.920 There is no good policing without good governance.

01:06:54.760 And when you use governance in this context, you're not talking about the police and his or her deputies.

01:06:59.920 you're talking about some level sir i'm talking i'm talking about independent civilian oversight

01:07:04.640 of policing the police chief answers to someone i answered to my board i worked for my board and

01:07:11.360 and and i was accountable to my board and and i understood that was my responsibility to be

01:07:18.320 accountable to answer their questions they were always very careful by the way and i can't

01:07:22.960 remember recall you at one incident in 10 years where they ever directed me in an investigation

01:07:28.080 in an operation, but they asked me a lot of questions about what we were doing and why we

01:07:32.420 were doing it. I believe it was my responsibility to provide them with that information so that they

01:07:38.120 could fulfill their function of providing oversight to me and to hold me accountable

01:07:42.040 for the job that I was doing. And so I know there's been, because I've watched, there's been

01:07:47.060 a lot of discussion about, you know, having a civilian or a politician directing the police,

01:07:54.560 And that's never acceptable. But at the same time, the police must be accountable to an independent civilian authority.

01:08:01.600 And that can be achieved through a government minister who's assigned responsibility can be done through a police services board.

01:08:08.460 But but in my experience, public policing is all predicated on public trust and the consent of the people who are policed.

01:08:14.800 That trust is really warranted by that oversight and accountability and transparency and the way those extraordinary authorities given to the police are exercised.

01:08:28.380 Right. And in the time that you were chief of police and having this governance relationship with the police services board,

01:08:39.440 would you have considered it interference or what is sometimes called directing the police

01:08:46.280 for that board to have outlined to you either long-term or immediate priorities

01:08:51.780 or rankings of objectives to accomplish with your available resources there are a number of

01:08:59.320 different models of governance that are often employed by police service boards one of them

01:09:03.440 is through policies and priorities i think i believe it's called the carver model um i actually

01:09:07.480 slow down for the reporter and the what model the carver model i've actually spent a lot a lot of

01:09:11.560 time i i also felt it was my responsibility to help my board be a good board because they would

01:09:17.160 help me be a good chief and so we spent a lot of time talking about how they could do their job

01:09:22.840 and it would help me do my job um as as a board and and i think it it was a very effective

01:09:28.440 relationship um they did set priorities for the service they also set my budget um i would

01:09:35.800 collaborate with them and work very closely with them and they would consult with the public on

01:09:39.880 what those priorities should be because there is a bridge that a governance body can serve

01:09:45.640 for a police service to be that connection on behalf of community and and so they they would

01:09:51.160 bring there's lots of community deputations made at our board meetings where people would would

01:09:56.360 outline their expectations and their concerns and and and the board would set priorities but my board

01:10:01.320 was also very careful not to cross a line into operational matters to suggest where we should

01:10:08.680 deploy people or or you know what investigations or what laws would be enforced they never went

01:10:13.960 there and and neither would frankly i have allowed them i had to push back on that but they often

01:10:19.480 talked about you know placing a greater emphasis on community policing on community outreach on

01:10:24.840 building greater diversity within the police service and and you know how we interact with

01:10:31.320 you know the incredible diverse population of our city and and issues of crime prevention and and

01:10:36.120 how communities were to be be policed and frankly i never considered those infringements on police

01:10:43.000 operations i just thought it was we were working together to do good policing and and what about

01:10:48.520 when that uh effort at direction uh from the police services board was aimed at a more immediate

01:10:58.280 situation and i don't mean a particular investigation or anything of that type but for

01:11:03.880 example if the tamil protest had shut down university avenue for four days would you

01:11:09.640 have considered it out of line for the police services board to to ask you what you intended

01:11:14.840 to do about it and express to you their view that they considered this a serious problem for the

01:11:20.040 city? I would have considered it entirely appropriate. And frankly, I recall getting

01:11:25.440 these questions from the board. What are you doing? Why are you doing it? There was a fair

01:11:29.880 bit of criticism, as you can imagine. As a matter of fact, some of the national papers were accusing

01:11:34.040 me of being overly tolerant. My board was very supportive of what we were doing, but they did

01:11:38.440 asked questions about what and why, which I considered entirely appropriate, but at no time

01:11:44.860 did they tell me how to police that community. And I think that's, for me, there's a bright line

01:11:49.940 there. And they didn't cross that line, but they held me to account to the decisions I was making

01:11:56.180 on how I was going to deliver policing services in those circumstances. And I didn't consider

01:12:01.700 their questions infringements on any aspect of my authority and responsibility. It was my job

01:12:07.960 answer their questions and and to to allow them to perform that oversight role and to hold me

01:12:14.120 accountable for the decisions i made now that's very helpful now i'm going to ask you to see if

01:12:21.240 you can direct those thoughts to the uh i don't know if unique is the right word but at least the

01:12:29.480 different situation of the rcmp which doesn't have a police services board structure to which it is

01:12:37.560 accountable uh the commissioner reports to the minister and uh has a relatively thin statutory

01:12:45.960 framework uh that that that delineates that relationship have you had some thoughts about

01:12:55.240 what what you're calling governance of the rcmp could and should look like if it's different

01:13:01.640 than it currently is now yes sir and in fact it actually appeared in in my mandate letter

01:13:07.240 when I was the Minister of Public Safety, that we were looking at the issue of governance.

01:13:13.380 It's also, I also had some responsibility, I have a keen interest in the delivery of

01:13:18.060 First Nations policing program across the city, and we're working towards the development

01:13:22.240 of a new legislative framework for First Nations policing in Canada.

01:13:27.180 In order to make sure that that's as effective as it can be, I believe we have to resolve

01:13:32.100 the issue of governance in those communities, give people a say in how they're going to

01:13:36.360 be policed. That doesn't mean they get to direct the police operations, but they can make decisions

01:13:42.520 about how the police will function within their communities. And I would also make the observation

01:13:48.680 in a number of jurisdictions across the country, you know, we sometimes see the tension that exists

01:13:54.620 for the contract policing across this country, but very often it's an issue of governance.

01:14:00.320 And I'll just cite, if I may, I also recall vividly, in Ontario,

01:14:06.380 there were a number of communities that had their own little small police services

01:14:10.380 who made a decision to go and contract with the Ontario Provincial Police

01:14:15.300 to deliver policing services in their community.

01:14:18.280 And I witnessed the OPP make a very strong effort

01:14:22.580 to give those communities governance authority over their detachment

01:14:27.340 and to meet regularly with the local officials

01:14:30.420 and to actually give them a say in how they're going to be policed.

01:14:34.440 I thought it was very thoughtful, and I also believe that model,

01:14:38.780 which I'm familiar with Ontario, could assist us

01:14:41.920 in improving the quality of policing right across the country,

01:14:45.760 particularly in contract areas and, in particular, in First Nations.

01:14:51.220 And do you have any specific recommendations,

01:14:53.700 or I shouldn't say specific in the sense of drafting legislative terms,

01:14:58.800 but what a more complete governance structure would look like for the RCMP?

01:15:07.940 I think there's a number of models to be considered.

01:15:10.020 I also want to be respectful.

01:15:11.220 This is the responsibility now of my friend and colleague, Minister Mendicino.

01:15:14.680 He is the minister.

01:15:15.560 If you want to stop there, then we're going to hear from him shortly.

01:15:18.580 But at the same time, I have obviously some thoughts on the matter,

01:15:22.520 and I'm more than happy to share that with Minister Minogino.

01:15:24.800 I think ultimately it's going to lead to better policing,

01:15:27.860 which is our collective goal.

01:15:33.580 Now, there were a couple of times,

01:15:36.860 and you might remember them,

01:15:40.500 I'm going to bring you to one in particular,

01:15:42.700 where you made comments to the effect of

01:15:45.860 the police just need to do their job.

01:15:48.500 In other words, you made comments that gave the public

01:15:52.120 the impression that you didn't think the police were doing as much as they could to deal with the

01:15:57.160 situations in both ottawa and and elsewhere in the in the country um and uh all the ottawa ones

01:16:08.040 i think you're familiar with and we've heard a lot from the ops and about their reaction to to your

01:16:14.440 to your comments so let me just begin there did you have the impression uh uh that uh the ottawa

01:16:23.640 police were not doing as much as they could or should have or perhaps as early as they should

01:16:28.840 have to deal with the situation that they encountered when the convoy arrived in ottawa

01:16:34.520 i i think initially the their response was incorrect was was incorrect i i think and and

01:16:41.880 And based on the intelligence that they had, I think allowing those trucks into the downtown

01:16:45.480 core to establish themselves and become essentially very large barricades in hindsight, and I

01:16:53.120 appreciate this is the clarity of my hindsight, but I believe that was a mistake.

01:16:57.260 And I think they would acknowledge that it would be better had that not happened.

01:17:01.680 But once that actually happened, they were dealing with what in my experience would be

01:17:05.080 a unique set of circumstances a uniquely challenging set of circumstances which which was

01:17:11.720 was it was extremely challenging and and in fairness to them um my concern and and and the

01:17:18.600 statements i made frankly it was not my intention to criticize the police it was in it was to

01:17:23.720 encourage them to utilize the tools that were available to them because again i've spent most

01:17:29.160 of my life telling police officers to do their job and and and i have every confidence in them

01:17:34.120 I'm very proud of my profession, and I'm very proud of the men and women who do that work,

01:17:37.720 and I was just trying to encourage them.

01:17:39.560 We, as a society, needed the police because they're the only ones empowered to deal with

01:17:45.800 these public order events, and we needed them to do what was required to bring it to a peaceful

01:17:52.280 resolution, and I was simply commenting that we needed them to do that job.

01:17:57.400 okay and i'll ask you i'll ask the clerk uh if i can read this uh to call up ssm nsc can

01:18:06.920 four zeros 3129 uh minister blair this will be a a text uh exchange between you and and zita

01:18:17.000 astrovis your chief of staff and of and of course you can see the uh words that caught our attention

01:18:26.040 when when uh your office uh sent the commission this document among among all the others and uh

01:18:34.920 that is uh your your comment the police are finally doing their job in windsor

01:18:42.040 uh and we'll go on to the next paragraph in a second but had it been your impression

01:18:47.800 that the situation in windsor uh was taking longer than it should have to resolve because

01:18:53.240 the police were not doing their job and again not something i would have ever said to the police

01:18:57.880 because it's not i don't believe that would have been appropriate but personally i i believe that

01:19:02.280 the impact of the blockades at the ambassador bridge were being hugely impactful not just

01:19:10.120 economically but you know auto plants were being shut down right across the province

01:19:14.680 there was a huge impact that was taking place people people were being laid off they were being

01:19:18.840 sent home factory floors were being idled and and i i believe there was a sense of urgency to resolve

01:19:25.000 that um i i respect you know the operational commanders i wasn't second guessing them

01:19:31.800 certainly to them but i was frankly relieved that they were in my opinion finally finally resolving

01:19:38.760 that i also had every expectation as i indicate in that note that they would do everything to

01:19:43.560 to avoid violence, that they would be measured and proportional and professional, because

01:19:48.740 I know those guys, and I have every confidence in their work, but I was very much seized

01:19:54.280 with a strong sense of urgency about the blockades at that particular location, because I believed

01:20:00.960 that they had been so impactful.

01:20:02.660 And do you recollect any view you had about the liaison efforts?

01:20:06.780 and we're looking now at the second paragraph where you say it appears they presumably the

01:20:14.020 police windsor police force and the opp who are and rcmp who are acting here it appears they didn't

01:20:21.340 actually need to offer terms and concessions to the protesters can you explain what you were

01:20:27.240 thinking there if you remember i i don't really recall except again i was feeling a sense of

01:20:33.940 relief that they were now clearing that bridge because it did strike me as a matter of urgency

01:20:39.020 and previous tactics had not been effective in clearing.

01:20:51.840 I'm going to move to a different topic.

01:20:57.520 So before I leave, is there anything more you'd like to say about those topics that

01:21:02.220 we've just been covering about police governance,

01:21:07.760 about the effectiveness of the police operations

01:21:12.700 in Ottawa, I'm not expecting any more from you,

01:21:18.080 but I'm just about to change topics,

01:21:20.000 and so I'd offer you that.

01:21:21.380 Let us change topics, sir, I'm fine.

01:21:23.140 Okay, although you might not like to change the topic,

01:21:27.080 it's to the Alberta RFA,

01:21:29.180 You'll recollect that, I think, and can you just, to those who haven't followed the proceedings

01:21:40.980 quite as closely maybe as the rest of us, can you just outline what that was about and

01:21:45.460 how it came across your desk?

01:21:47.940 Yes, sir, and I don't recall precisely whether the letter arrived first or I heard from Deputy

01:21:53.820 Minister Stewart, but I became aware that there was a request from the province of Alberta,

01:22:00.980 and I believe it was from Minister Rick MacGyver, stating a number of things about what was

01:22:06.380 transpiring in Alberta with respect to the Coutts blockade. The Coutts blockade had been going on

01:22:12.640 for some time, and among the things that Minister MacGyver was asking for, he made a number of

01:22:18.200 comments, but his primary ask was for access, and he was very specific, to Canadian Armed Forces

01:22:23.760 tow trucks, I believe, in order to assist in the movement of trucks that were blockading the

01:22:31.200 highway in southern Alberta at Coutts. And so immediately, because he was asking for Canadian

01:22:38.520 Armed Forces resources and personnel in order to respond to this, that request I forwarded to the

01:22:45.180 Department of National Defence and to minister an end, because it didn't fall under any of our

01:22:49.680 existing agreements. So it would have been something that, first of all, we'd have to hear

01:22:53.060 from the Canadian Armed Forces, whether or not they had equipment fit for purpose, and would also

01:22:57.520 require the approval of the Minister of National Defence. And so that information went on over to

01:23:05.120 them. I also recall a number of days later being advised by Deputy Minister Stewart that the

01:23:12.800 Canadian Armed Forces advised that they did not have equipment fit for purpose and didn't believe

01:23:17.400 that they would be able to respond to that request. The advice I received from the Deputy

01:23:23.060 Minister at that time is that we should simply advise Alberta that we weren't able to respond

01:23:28.260 positively to their request for assistance. We always endeavor to try to do our best, but there

01:23:33.720 have been a few occasions when we've had to say, no, we just don't have that equipment.

01:23:37.360 But I did ask the Deputy Minister and some of my own staff to explore, again, from a whole government standpoint, did we have any other resources that we can draw upon?

01:23:49.440 I was quite reluctant to say just say no.

01:23:52.120 And so we looked at other departments and agencies, Parks Canada, Transport Canada, even had people checking to see if we could access trucks in the United States that could have been brought across the border to assist.

01:24:03.360 and ultimately I was advised no and that they weren't able to do that I then asked because

01:24:10.980 Mr. MacGyver had called me and wanted an answer to the question and and I said to my people we

01:24:17.240 have to have a formal response to Mr. MacGyver a letter was produced I approved it I was concerned

01:24:23.700 that again we were saying no but I approved it also making an offer because he had indicated

01:24:29.320 that they were going to purchase some of their own vehicles at that point in time that we the

01:24:33.720 federal government would assist in paying for those vehicles um and and eventually a letter

01:24:38.060 was approved um and and and i signed off on it thereafter um it goes back to officials to to be

01:24:46.400 sent i understand in my subsequent uh messaging with with minister macgyver that he never received

01:24:51.800 that letter i have no explanation for that and we we've we've heard an explanation from your staff

01:24:57.000 So I won't ask you to expand on that.

01:25:02.720 But if we could, it might give some more insight on that process if we looked at another document.

01:25:12.600 So, Mr. Clerk, could you call up SSM CAN NSC 402689?

01:25:18.400 and if the system is working this will be the unredacted version of a document that has been

01:25:33.500 redacted to the parties until just about right now and you can see it there's a

01:25:43.200 um we're we're at february 11th here at this exchange of emails and uh

01:25:54.480 the email we're looking at right now is from ms astrovis uh and uh

01:26:02.400 she's recording that the pmo is approved and this we're going to find out when we go down here

01:26:09.440 is followed by an email from from you and uh i'll suggest to you you might recognize it

01:26:16.640 but you're commenting here on the response to alberta uh and if if i've got that right what

01:26:22.800 you're saying is it's a weak response that is the response you or the federal government is giving

01:26:28.560 to alberta it's a weak response but all we have i approve please advise alberta and if if i've

01:26:36.880 correctly characterized that as your your message in relation to the response to the rfa

01:26:43.360 and why were you describing it as a weak response because i wanted to help alberta and we had

01:26:50.720 examined all of our options and we weren't able to provide them with the equipment that they sought

01:26:56.000 and and and and so a letter was was prepared i believe it indicated our willingness to provide

01:27:01.440 them with financial assistance for what they're requiring but at this point in time we weren't

01:27:07.040 able to provide them with the trucks that they sought i had hoped we would be able to and so

01:27:12.160 i thought a weak response but i also thought it was equally important that we respond and that

01:27:16.480 we advise alberta of the position that we were in and that in particular the caf had advised excuse

01:27:24.000 excuse me the canadian armed forces right had advised that their equipment wasn't appropriate

01:27:29.040 and it requires their approval, and they didn't give that approval.

01:27:34.480 Okay, so one reading of it's a weak response would be,

01:27:40.880 we the federal government don't have a good rationale for denying this RFA.

01:27:45.320 That is, it's a weak response to Alberta,

01:27:48.680 but that's not how you intended those words to read.

01:27:53.100 Not at all, sir.

01:27:54.900 Frankly, we didn't have the equipment.

01:27:58.220 the rationale was pretty straightforward

01:28:01.440 we don't have the equipment

01:28:03.600 that you've asked us for

01:28:04.900 Canadian Armed Forces said it's not fit for purpose

01:28:07.480 and they're unable to provide it

01:28:09.100 and that is

01:28:11.680 exactly what it is sir

01:28:12.760 so you would say it was

01:28:15.300 a complete

01:28:16.440 and logical response but it was unfortunate

01:28:19.560 in that you weren't able

01:28:21.500 to deliver anything

01:28:22.440 my strong preference would have been to help Alberta

01:28:24.480 now

01:28:26.840 Now, moving chronologically through events to the consideration of the Emergencies Act, as it came up, you participated in the SSE meetings and then the IRG meetings when the forum transitioned to the IRG.

01:28:44.140 Were you present at or represented at all of those meetings?

01:28:47.600 I was present at all of them, sir.

01:28:48.740 Thank you. And if you can describe in general, what was Cabinet, or at least those members of Cabinet who were gathered in those meetings, looking to you for, and what were you able to contribute to the meetings?

01:29:05.220 first of all in in the safety security and emergency uh committee that i chair um it's a

01:29:14.020 it's a smaller group of cabinet ministers that that regularly convene although each of these

01:29:18.900 meetings was what i referred to as ad hoc it was beyond our regular schedule of meetings but we

01:29:23.700 we i brought them together in order to receive uh briefings from depending on the officials deputy

01:29:30.180 minister stewart commissioner lucky the nsia advisor to provide information to my cabinet

01:29:37.620 colleagues um also to to discuss the appropriate government response um i also took the opportunity

01:29:45.220 during these meetings and i think what i was able to contribute was was to provide them with an

01:29:49.780 understanding because of my policing background with the the policing environment that that

01:29:55.220 governed um this event and and as the event unfolded over the course of a number of days

01:30:01.860 about you know what again the policing environment not just in ottawa but in in in various locales

01:30:08.420 in provincial in alberta british columbia in manitoba and a number of points of entry in ontario

01:30:15.220 right now uh i i have a particular question that comes out of something we discussed in the

01:30:22.740 interview uh uh and and uh that i believe you have a view on you you were participating in these

01:30:31.300 meetings as events were coming to a head uh we had uh irg meetings coming up towards the uh

01:30:41.860 irg meeting immediately before invocation on the 13th uh and i'm gonna get in your interview

01:30:49.620 summary which the parties have already seen you outline the reasons that you thought

01:30:54.820 were certainly bearing on your thoughts as you were contemplating the the propriety of invocation

01:31:01.860 but there was a there was a particular sub point that i wanted to ask you about which was was

01:31:07.380 whether uh you were aware of i think you've probably heard about now uh at the time you

01:31:16.420 were contemplating this and ultimately giving your input to the prime minister uh on the 13th

01:31:21.060 whether you were aware of commissioner lucky's uh views that she thought that there were still

01:31:27.140 law enforcement tools uh available to the rcmp to deal with the situation in ottawa and elsewhere

01:31:34.260 in canada i don't believe i was aware of that on the 13th right or before or before yes i've

01:31:42.820 obviously subsequently become aware of it and we've talked about you've asked me about it but

01:31:46.420 but i don't i don't recall being aware of it right i'm prior to that and and and as i'll just

01:31:52.740 to be clear despite having been at all of the ssc and irg and ultimately cabinet meetings that we're

01:31:57.860 considering invocation is that correct yes sir okay now can we come to your for for you don't

01:32:04.740 have to do them off by heart although you might remember them i can i can help guide you through

01:32:09.380 them but but as i recollected from our interview with you you you had categorized the reasons that

01:32:14.340 you thought uh invocation of the act was important and as i i don't want you to characterize these

01:32:22.180 necessarily as the advice you gave cabinet because that would be a confidence of cabinet so if you

01:32:29.540 can just describe them to us as how you were viewing the matter as the con as you were

01:32:33.940 contemplating invocation yes sir if if i may um the situation in ottawa had been enormously

01:32:41.540 challenging for the people of ottawa um and and i i think people were living in a state of of

01:32:47.540 fearfulness and and intimidation um and and frankly i think it was a very difficult set

01:32:53.220 of circumstances for them there um and and i was aware of that and you know obviously anxious to

01:33:01.380 to to resolve that but i remained hopeful throughout and and and i i'd like to also

01:33:08.500 sort of be clear to characterize i believe very much the emergency act was a measure of last resort

01:33:14.660 and that it was incumbent upon us to first of all either exhaust all existing authorities or

01:33:21.620 acknowledge that they would not be successful and could not be used for a number of different

01:33:25.860 reasons and we were hearing that type of feedback from law enforcement about the enormous challenges

01:33:30.020 they were facing we were also hearing about how stretched their resources were being were being

01:33:35.860 pulled because of events that were taking place in different parts of the country that required

01:33:40.340 them to respond to one place but then be required in other places and that was a challenge that we

01:33:44.980 were hearing quite frequently as well but i will also tell you i became very concerned because one

01:33:50.420 of my responsibilities as the minister for emergency preparedness is the resiliency and

01:33:55.220 safety and security of critical infrastructure and we define critical infrastructure as 10

01:34:00.020 different sectors sectors of critical infrastructure and in particular as it relates to

01:34:04.020 this event it includes such things as manufacturing our transportation routes the essential supply

01:34:11.060 lines the movement of essential workers and and what i was witnessing at the ambassador bridge

01:34:17.860 at Coutts, at Emerson, and then in a number of different venues where we would see similar

01:34:27.140 activity being threatened to be done at Point Edwards, at the Peace Bridge, at the Pacific

01:34:32.100 Highway in British Columbia. That escalation I viewed as a significant escalation because it did

01:34:41.780 result in significant disruption of critical supply lines. The cutting off of essential

01:34:47.700 goods and services, the impact that it was having, not just economically, but on people,

01:34:53.540 on families, and, you know, people who laid off their jobs, and factories were being idled. I was

01:34:59.780 also concerned because I'm aware, being a person from Ontario, that the integrated manufacturing

01:35:05.700 processes in Ontario, particularly in the auto sector, but in many other manufacturing sectors

01:35:10.660 as well, you know, prior to being public safety minister, I was also the minister of border

01:35:14.560 security. And so it really did give me an understanding and appreciation of how important

01:35:19.800 the integrity and functioning of that border is to our prosperity, to our economy, and to the

01:35:26.920 well-being and health and safety of Canadians. And so when those borders were essentially closed

01:35:33.280 and that, you know, the movement of goods and services, particularly some of the parts that

01:35:38.060 go into our factories was being essentially stopped, it was hugely impactful. And I believe

01:35:44.860 that it had risen to the level of a national emergency. We were also seeing, frankly,

01:35:52.020 the information that we received from the RCMP on or around February 10th, that they believed that

01:35:57.220 there were firearms present at Coutts. And then subsequently, I believe on the 13th and 14th,

01:36:03.180 when they completed their criminal investigation and arrested people and seized a number of

01:36:06.860 firearms it also for me elevated concern about public safety and and and the risk that not

01:36:13.440 everyone involved in these process represented but embedded within these protests the possibility

01:36:18.660 is certainly in Alberta of of of violence and even serious violence um taking place and and so

01:36:26.620 for for me the that the impact that that it was having not just in the city of Ottawa but I don't

01:36:33.660 want to minimize what was going on in Ottawa by any stretch of the imagination, but right across

01:36:37.820 the country, particularly as it pertains to critical infrastructure, for me, elevated the

01:36:42.760 situation to a national emergency. I would also observe as well, I believed that there was strong

01:36:50.280 evidence that the fact that this protest was so well entrenched in blockades in Ottawa really

01:36:59.040 anchored what was taking place even right across the country that there was in my mind a clear

01:37:03.760 correlation between the activities of border blockades and what was taking place in ottawa

01:37:10.000 and and and it it also for me highlighted the need we had to resolve the whole situation and

01:37:15.840 failure to do so would it failure to resolve in ottawa would have resulted just continue to like

01:37:21.440 like whack-a-mole chasing border blockades from one point of entry to another there are 119 border

01:37:29.040 points of entry, land border points of entry in this country, plus our airports, and all of them

01:37:34.540 are vulnerable to this type of unlawful action. And in my opinion, that represented a serious threat

01:37:41.760 to our national security and became a national emergency. And when you describe

01:37:47.140 your observation that the impact on the critical infrastructure elevated the situation,

01:37:54.660 that the blockades the convoy the protests etc elevated that to a national emergency

01:37:59.500 when you say that the impact on the critical infrastructure when i think of infrastructure

01:38:06.220 i think of physical built bridges and roads and trains and things like that but i i i don't think

01:38:13.800 there was any actual harm to those so i take it you're talking about the the impact on trade and

01:38:18.920 the economy and people in the vicinity, their lives, things like that, not the infrastructure

01:38:25.600 itself? When an artery, a point of entry into the country, in Manitoba, in Alberta, in Ontario,

01:38:34.880 is essentially rendered dysfunctional, when it's closed and nothing is moving through there,

01:38:41.220 the movement of those goods and services, in my opinion, is part of our critical infrastructure.

01:38:45.620 It supports manufacturing. It's part of the transportation, you know, but and you don't you don't have to blow everything up.

01:38:53.500 To render it unusable. Right. And, you know, that can be done through cyber attack, for example.

01:38:58.380 But but but rendering unusable is an attack on critical infrastructure, in my opinion.

01:39:02.940 And that that's excuse me, that's precisely what happened in these in these circumstances.

01:39:07.460 and it was for me we'd seen bridges and highways and rail lines go down in the in the floods and

01:39:15.760 storms in British Columbia it we knew we had to work hard to get those reopened but the situation

01:39:22.180 in across this country it it was exacerbated by the the very significant challenges the police

01:39:29.700 we're obviously having to clear these in a timely way all right um and if i can remind you uh

01:39:39.780 you had a fourth believe it or not you just did go through three of your factors that they sort

01:39:46.740 of got lumped together but your fourth had to do with your your your view on whether or not

01:39:51.940 the existing legal authorities were adequate uh whether they had been exhausted etc uh what was

01:39:59.220 your view there yes sir i want one of the things that i can go through a bit of a list one of the

01:40:05.060 things we'd heard in alberta in manitoba in british columbia and certainly in ottawa and at

01:40:10.660 the ambassador bridge was the very significant challenges that the police were having in gaining

01:40:16.260 access to vehicles that they could tow the the large trucks that were being used basically to

01:40:23.140 blockade you know they think these almost ceased to be trucks they they were uh fortresses and and

01:40:29.700 very very difficult to move um there there were a number of reasons why that i think have been

01:40:34.260 articulated for this commission as to why they couldn't gain access to those but it was a reality

01:40:38.660 that they could not um i i looked very carefully by the way on on the friday when ontario brought

01:40:44.340 in their measures they did attempt to address making those those tow trucks available at least

01:40:50.260 in ontario but you know it only authorized the use of the truck it did not compel it

01:40:55.300 and and so i was concerned that given the circumstances and what i believe to be the

01:40:59.380 reasons why those trucks weren't available to to the police to clear the blockades either

01:41:04.260 at ambassador bridge or in ottawa that we needed to do something else i'm also aware in in previous

01:41:11.780 part of my police career i was very much involved in organized crime and money laundering

01:41:15.460 investigations. And so I am familiar with the authorities and the activities of FinTrack.

01:41:21.220 And one of the questions that we had as a government was, where is this money coming from

01:41:25.500 and how is it being used? I became aware that FinTrack did not have existing authorities

01:41:31.260 to provide us with that information. And so that was, in my opinion, a deficiency in existing

01:41:37.180 authorities and something that we needed to consider how we might be able to address it.

01:41:41.480 there were there were also a number of areas like one of the things when ambassador bridge as an

01:41:47.440 example was was blockaded one of the first things i did is i dug out the international bridges and

01:41:52.520 tunnels act to see what authorities we had but the authorities within that act were limited only to

01:41:57.980 the bridge and as you recall the blockades in windsor didn't set up on the bridge or even in

01:42:03.200 their their their primary points of access it was further down the road it was very effective in

01:42:07.860 closing down that bridge but it would happen to be on a municipal roadway which which is governed by

01:42:13.380 municipal bylaw and the ontario highway traffic act but not up really effectively by any federal

01:42:18.740 statute and so the ability to designate certain spaces that also became relevant um in in the

01:42:23.860 city of ottawa i think um for wellington street and the sir john a parkway um in order to this

01:42:31.780 it became necessary to designate certain spaces where those activities would not be prohibited

01:42:37.620 and so there were a number of circumstances where the normal tools that the police would rely on

01:42:43.780 either in municipal statute in provincial statute or municipal bylaw provincial statute or in

01:42:49.060 federal statute were not being able they could not use them effectively to to resolve this in a

01:42:55.380 peaceful way and and you know we we listened very carefully to the challenges that we were facing

01:43:01.540 And I came to believe that we needed to find a remedy to provide them with the tools that they required

01:43:08.740 in order to affect the purpose of bringing these protests to an end.

01:43:12.920 Okay, and coming to the end of our time and to the end of the part of the story that the commission hopes to have you talk about,

01:43:24.280 You observed, not as a police participant, but as an experienced public order commander,

01:43:32.420 the enforcement action that eventually came to pass in Ottawa when the plan,

01:43:38.120 the Joint Forces Plan, was implemented.

01:43:42.280 Did you have observations about the propriety effectiveness, timeliness, etc.,

01:43:48.360 of the police action once the plan was in place?

01:43:51.860 Yes, sir, I did.

01:43:52.540 and and i can tell you it restored my pride in my profession you know i i have great respect and

01:43:59.380 admiration for the men and women who do that very difficult job of policing and what i witnessed

01:44:03.700 certainly in the city of ottawa but in other jurisdictions as well but particularly in the

01:44:07.240 city of ottawa an entirely professional proportional measured response they they move

01:44:15.240 slowly methodically respectfully um you know it was very clear that they were well trained very

01:44:21.880 clear they were well led um i i believe that their their their um exercise of the authorities that

01:44:31.480 they had both in existing law and in the new regulations was done in a very uh measured and

01:44:36.600 careful way and i i've i've seen some video of how they've done it it was textbook like i've

01:44:43.400 been trained as a public order commander and i've seen it done well and i've never seen it done

01:44:46.760 better than what i witnessed here in the city of ottawa as they i think to the extent possible as

01:44:53.320 peacefully as possible brought this to a resolution they they allowed people for example points of

01:44:58.800 egress it's always important to let people have a space to go they did that work they know they

01:45:03.640 moved slowly i actually found myself trying to explain to some of my friends that why they're

01:45:08.780 going slowly because that's the right way to do it and and in my opinion they did it the right way

01:45:14.060 okay thank you uh minister blair and thank you commissioner those are the questions of

01:45:19.740 commission council i think pretty close to on time i think you have 10 minutes left oh there you go

01:45:26.940 you can think up new questions i'm sure we're happy to share them um so this may be a good time

01:45:34.620 for the afternoon break then and we can come back in 15 minutes to go into the cross examinations

01:45:46.460 the commission is in recess for 15 minutes

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02:00:34.620 Thank you.

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02:02:04.620 Thank you.

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02:03:04.620 Thank you.

02:03:34.620 Order alert.

02:04:04.620 The Commission has reconvened that Commissioner Le Proulx.

02:04:27.280 Minister, good morning or good afternoon.

02:04:29.620 Good afternoon.

02:04:30.620 Long week.

02:04:31.620 my name is brennan miller and i'm counsel to freedom corp which is the entity that represents

02:04:35.780 the protesters that were in ottawa january and february of 2022. if we could please bring up

02:04:41.940 uh document ssm dot can dot zero zero zero zero six three five eight underscore rel dot zero zero zero

02:04:50.340 1 Council is that 16 5 8 6 3 5 8 6 3 5 8 6358.

02:05:20.180 we can scroll to the last page please have you seen this email before sir um the last page please

02:05:31.540 no sir i don't recall okay so this email is from january 27 2022 at 4 21 pm you can agree with me

02:05:38.340 that the protesters in ottawa didn't arrive here until uh the 28th is that fair that's my

02:05:42.820 understanding yes sir all right so they're already preparing the narrative that they're going to

02:05:47.860 label the protesters with can you scroll down please

02:05:52.420 and there i put this to the last witness as well our government recognizes and

02:05:55.860 respects that everyone in canada has the right to safe and peace of protest

02:05:59.460 threatening acts of violence and inciting hatred

02:06:01.860 as we have seen from a select few in recent days

02:06:04.820 is unacceptable and does not reflect the views of the majority of canadians

02:06:08.500 we condemn all such hateful and violent rhetoric in strongest terms

02:06:12.020 so can you agree with me that that labeling of the protesters had already

02:06:16.900 been set out on january 27th sir i don't know the context of this email or or or frankly where

02:06:24.820 it comes from okay if we can scroll up okay and scroll up to the top please

02:06:33.860 so this is with your chief of staff and they're agreeing about how they're going to

02:06:38.900 set the narrative for the protest and if you scroll down again they confirm with one another

02:06:45.860 that this is what they're going to do so can you agree with me again that by january 27th 2022

02:06:54.200 you're essentially all your colleagues and yourselves had agreed that there'd be a joint

02:07:01.940 government response and this was how you're going to deal with it you were going to label the

02:07:05.040 protesters uh violent to incite hate hateful violent rhetoric that was the intention on january

02:07:14.500 27th correct no sir i disagree okay there is no agreement here it's it's recommendation from

02:07:20.500 someone on staff right if we could bring up document ssm.can.00007719 underscore rel.0001

02:07:34.580 so sir i can tell you these are the notes of miss sarah jackson i take it you know

02:07:47.580 sarah jackson is the office manager to the chief of staff of the prime minister is that correct

02:07:51.620 i know of her i don't believe we've met face to face right and you know uh who katie telford is

02:07:58.380 yes sir and she's the chief of staff to the prime minister yes sir all right can we scroll down to

02:08:04.960 page three please all right so you'll see that this note it's the notes from miss jackson it

02:08:13.060 says february 4th kt call so i'm sure you can agree with me that kt that's katie talford is

02:08:18.400 that correct i have no idea sir okay so let's scroll down to page four please

02:08:22.980 and there at the note on february 4th 2022 it says blair strategy emergency act you see that

02:08:33.200 yes sir i see it yeah because it was your strategy on february 4th 2022 to get the

02:08:38.500 emergencies act invoked was it not no sir that's incorrect so why would in a conversation to your

02:08:44.960 knowledge why would miss jackson record that in a meeting with miss telford why would she do that

02:08:51.520 to your knowledge? I have no idea, sir. I can tell you I recall the meeting in which I talked

02:08:57.360 about the need for the police of jurisdiction to exhaust their existing authorities and that

02:09:04.680 we needed to support them. I also made it very clear to colleagues that the Emergency Act was

02:09:09.580 a measure of last resort and not appropriate at this time. But that was the conversation I had

02:09:16.200 in fourth. And can you agree with me, though, that if there was a strategy to invoke the

02:09:19.780 Emergencies Act that if the purported emergency resolves itself on its own, of course, there's

02:09:25.360 no reason to invoke it, correct? Again, sir, there was no strategy to invoke the Act. There was a

02:09:33.600 discussion among colleagues about the various options that were available, and I was very

02:09:38.400 explicit to my colleagues that the Emergency Act was not under consideration at this time.

02:09:43.480 you you had said on uh global news on the 13th at eight o'clock on the 13th you had told them

02:09:54.380 and i can i have the transcript if you'd like me to repeat it you said that the emergencies act

02:09:59.620 was under consideration from the outset do you want me to read the transcript to you

02:10:03.020 to be to be really clear i believe what i said is and you can read whatever you like by the way

02:10:08.060 but what i believe i said is everything was on the table and we were considering every option

02:10:12.340 throughout that that is the responsibility of of those of us sir what you actually said was that

02:10:18.340 it was under consideration in the first from the first day that's what you said would you like me

02:10:23.860 to show you the transcript that might be useful okay if we could bring up the support documents

02:10:29.940 um it i believe is in there

02:10:43.060 you're you're referring to hrf 40 1622 right council yes sir do we have the actual reference

02:10:51.620 maybe your your associate can tell us what the reference is in the uh in the database

02:11:02.660 well i don't want to slow this down so i'll move on and come back to that so sir um we'll come back

02:11:07.380 to what you said but by february 4th of 2022 you agree that the prime minister and minister mendocino

02:11:19.940 had already labeled the protesters in ottawa as extremists is that correct

02:11:25.220 i have no knowledge of that i don't agree with that but you can agree that on january 31st 2022

02:11:30.740 the prime minister addressed the nation on tv and on the internet by video do you remember that no

02:11:35.940 sir you don't remember that no sir when the prime minister went on television to the whole nation

02:11:44.020 and talked about the ottawa protest on the following monday you don't remember that i

02:11:50.580 i know the premier spoke i have no recollection of what he said i was busy doing things i'm going

02:11:55.380 to read you what he said you can tell me if you remember it and he stated i know you are wondering

02:12:00.260 about what you saw in our capital city this weekend.

02:12:03.200 As my friend Erwin Kotter said on Saturdays,

02:12:05.860 freedom of expression, assembly and association

02:12:08.260 of the cornerstones of democracy,

02:12:09.660 but Nazi symbolism, racist imagery,

02:12:12.680 and desecration of war memorials are not.

02:12:14.740 It is an insult to memory and truth.

02:12:17.340 Hate can never be the answer.

02:12:19.280 Over the past few days, Canadians were shocked

02:12:21.820 and frankly disgusted by the behavior displayed

02:12:24.220 by some people protesting in the nation's capital.

02:12:26.920 I want to be very clear.

02:12:28.280 We are not intimidated by those who hurl insults and abuse at small business works and steal food from the homeless.

02:12:36.120 We won't give in to those who fly racist flags.

02:12:39.400 We won't cave to those who engage in vandalism and dishonor the memory of our veterans.

02:12:44.280 There is no place in our country for threats, violence, and hatred.

02:12:47.440 So to those responsible for this behavior, it needs to stop.

02:12:50.040 To anyone who joined the convoy but is rightly uncomfortable with the symbols of hatred and division on display,

02:12:55.880 Join with your fellow Canadians.

02:12:57.140 Be courageous and speak out.

02:12:58.780 Do not stand for or with intolerance or hate.

02:13:01.920 Do you remember hearing that now?

02:13:03.740 Actually, now that you've read it to me, sir, I not only remember it, but I agree with it.

02:13:07.540 Okay.

02:13:08.280 And so you can agree there that the Prime Minister has stated that being part of the protest is essentially standing with intolerance and hate.

02:13:15.000 Can you agree with that?

02:13:16.400 I don't believe that was the distinction the Prime Minister made.

02:13:19.700 He was actually telling people who don't agree with those measures not to stand with those who do.

02:13:24.860 Right. And I take it, you know, that when the protesters arrived on January 28th up to February 1st, that the evidence to date is that they were largely and completely peaceful and that there was little to no violence. Do you agree with that?

02:13:36.940 and and and again i i think i i think there might have been isolated incidents and and frankly

02:13:47.040 i also believe um the the carrying of hateful symbols like a nazi flag is is in many ways

02:13:55.860 causing fear and it is a form of violence and intimidation against people who who who would be

02:14:01.960 caused caused to be very fearful about such symbols in their community and so the bearer of

02:14:07.240 the nazi flag that that is a person who is hateful and it is someone that the government

02:14:13.160 of canada is concerned about is that fair um again i don't know the person who was who was

02:14:17.720 bearing the flag and i i wouldn't comment on that but i i know how hurtful that a nazi flag can be

02:14:25.960 to very many canadians who in in their life experience that's a symbol of of anti-semitism

02:14:31.080 hatred i understand and so i understand that you're also though you're familiar with the company

02:14:35.960 enterprise canada it does work for the liberal party of canada i do i'm not sir are you familiar

02:14:41.400 with uh supra davini does that sound i'm not sir are you familiar with mr brian fox no sir have

02:14:49.000 you heard anything about the individual carrying the nazi flag actually not being a protester

02:14:56.920 but somebody sent there so that photos were taken you have you heard anything about that

02:15:03.480 only from you sir okay and we'll just come back to uh the issue with the labeling then

02:15:11.480 i take it though that you consulted your comms people on the narrative that you wanted the

02:15:17.080 media to accept before the protesters even got here according to that email no sir that's not

02:15:22.600 not correct that email states that they were buying the narrative that's what it states with

02:15:29.740 with respect sir i believe what the email says is is that some of our communications people were

02:15:34.980 were examining and being prepared for the event coming but no decision had been made none of that

02:15:40.160 was presented to me and it did not form any of of my messaging can you agree that from the

02:15:45.160 protesters arrival at least after february 4th you intended and wanted the protesters removed by force

02:15:50.960 didn't you absolutely not sir i i wanted the protest to end and then to be removed but i've

02:15:57.780 always been committed to doing that as peaceably and proportionally as possible but you couldn't

02:16:02.180 talk to them after they had been labeled these extremists because your colleagues and yourself

02:16:08.740 of course you know extremism nazis terrorists you can't talk to that sort of group can you it would

02:16:14.140 look bad wouldn't it um i would actually disagree with your characterization in various points of

02:16:19.360 life sir i've engaged with with people who are engaged in protest and and and so i frankly i

02:16:26.000 disagree with your characterization so on february 7 2022 when the mayor of ottawa asked the federal

02:16:32.240 government and yourself to bring in a mediator to meet with the protesters do you remember what you

02:16:37.440 said to your chief of staff in response to that no sir perhaps you could share it with me we can

02:16:42.240 bring up document ssm.nsc.can.00003070 underscore rel.0001

02:17:01.120 so this is your response to finding out about the request for a mediator and you respond as follows

02:17:09.120 i don't know who is advising mayor watson but this is a bad mistake he has conceded without

02:17:13.760 ever using the many tools available to the city his language is also problematic this is not a

02:17:18.400 labor dispute between interest it's an unlawful occupation as long as the city and its police

02:17:23.280 refuse to do anything no progress will be possible so i take it at the time when you

02:17:28.160 wrote that to your chief of staff that was how you felt correct yes sir all right that's that's

02:17:34.080 an email from myself to my chief of staff correct and so it's fair to say that you did not want to

02:17:39.920 bring in a mediator i i was concerned about the intention of the mediation and and what was being

02:17:46.320 negotiated um in in my experience the the intent of engaging with protesters is to bring a peaceful

02:17:53.520 resolution to the protest yes but also then on february 11th of 2022 you were given a copy of

02:17:59.520 of the engagement proposal that inspector bedoin of the opp and deputy minister steward

02:18:05.200 had drafted right you were emailed a copy you'll have to share it with me sir to help me recall

02:18:10.640 if we can bring up document ssm.can.00006131 underscore rel.0001

02:18:19.920 if we can scroll down to the bottom

02:18:31.920 and so this is attached as the draft for your review and comments i have validated the proposed

02:18:36.720 approach with the opp expert and since shared the draft but no word back yet and that is from deputy

02:18:41.760 minister rob stewart and it is on february 11 2022 at 12 p.m if we can go up

02:18:49.920 and we can keep going it is then forwarded to you by your chief of staff astra zita

02:18:57.360 astravas zita and then it appears if we can scroll up you have a response but it's redacted

02:19:04.400 under section 39 the canada evidence act now can can you agree with me that your chief of staff

02:19:11.580 should not remember cabinet that's correct right so what was your response here i don't recall

02:19:18.720 you don't recall would it be helpful to the commission if we had your response

02:19:22.120 i don't know because i don't know i don't recall the response you don't recall the response

02:19:26.560 but given that it's an engagement proposal and in the meeting when you actually had it before you

02:19:32.540 there's notes to the effect that this isn't action we want action is it fair to say that

02:19:40.260 both yourselves including the prime minister and minister mendocino you were never on any terms

02:19:51.100 going to carry out any such proposal that would essentially require you to go and talk to the

02:19:58.940 protesters were you no sir i don't agree with anything you've just said so you had you had

02:20:05.960 always been open to meeting with the protesters we were and deputy stewart had advised that he

02:20:13.700 was involved in a process of engagement with with the protest protesters um but but i'm i'm frankly

02:20:20.280 i was not in in favor of having senior ministers of government and go out and engage with the

02:20:25.160 protesters um in in my experience that that's done at at an officials level and not involving

02:20:31.280 cabinet ministers are certainly not the prime minister but right now as i understand it and

02:20:36.420 there has been testimony that it's not uncommon for law enforcement to request of the political

02:20:42.560 branch to assist in negotiation like that it's actually relatively common they testified to that

02:20:48.720 so what was the problem was it because you couldn't be seen to meet with nazis and extremists

02:20:54.740 is that what was the issue first of all i i disagree with the characterization you've just

02:21:00.360 provided, but I don't have any experience in the many years I've dealt with public order events

02:21:07.240 of engaging with political figures to engage with protesters. Okay, can we please bring up

02:21:11.880 one last document? SSM.can.00008763 underscore rel.0001. And you're over your time, so I hope

02:21:25.440 This is a copy of the proposal with respect to engaging the protesters.

02:21:36.180 Okay.

02:21:37.580 Minister, what's the problem with it?

02:21:43.080 Could I see the whole thing?

02:21:44.640 Absolutely.

02:21:45.040 Great.

02:21:55.440 And again, I did not express a problem with this. The Deputy Minister was engaging with city and provincial officials in this and then came with his proposal to serve this proposal was before you in the IRG on the 13th.

02:22:13.120 actually i appreciate you you bringing that up sir i also recall that in in the discussion

02:22:20.020 almost immediately after deputy minister uh stewart advised us of the discussions that had

02:22:25.680 been taking place um there was very public disagreement among a number of people in the

02:22:30.960 protest who disavowed that disavowed this process and and and so quite frankly i think that i

02:22:36.460 understand i understand that but that's not really what the evidence that's come out there's been

02:22:40.520 evidence and we'll leave it at that but at the end of the day when you saw this you agree that

02:22:46.680 it was recommended by the opp it had been brought to you and drafted by the deputy minister of

02:22:51.700 public safety and they were on board in fact i found an email can you agree that the privy

02:22:58.560 counselor the privy counselor clerk she gave it the green light again it was it was cabinet

02:23:07.340 was it not well there was no recommendation mr commissioner i think that misstates the

02:23:12.480 evidence of the clerk with respect to the green light just one friend has made i'd like to ask

02:23:17.000 that my friend have a good faith basis for the questions put in the characterizations of the

02:23:21.560 evidence that are placed before the witness as some of the characterizations suggest that there

02:23:26.880 is a purpose to the questions less of seeking the witness's evidence but a purpose of stating the

02:23:32.980 stating facts as though they were evidence when that evidence is not properly before you.

02:23:36.820 I have one last question and then I'm done.

02:23:38.700 So you agree with me that after the invocation, on numerous occasions,

02:23:44.940 your government told the public that law enforcement had told you

02:23:51.160 that the threshold to invoke the Emergencies Act was met.

02:23:56.260 Do you remember all those statements that your colleagues and maybe even yourself made?

02:24:00.220 Do you remember those?

02:24:00.860 To be very clear, sir, I do not agree with you.

02:24:02.980 okay so you don't agree that those statements were made i don't agree with what you said

02:24:06.740 okay so you don't agree that ministers in your government have said that law enforcement advised

02:24:14.500 cabinet at the threshold to invoke the emergencies act was met and again sir the question you put to

02:24:22.180 me i do not agree with okay but then you do agree of course is that law enforcement never advised

02:24:26.980 you at the threshold to invoke the emergencies act was met did they

02:24:34.660 frankly it was never a question i put to law enforcement i don't think that would

02:24:38.260 have been appropriate okay thank you okay next is the honorable police service

02:24:56.980 Good afternoon, Minister Blair. My name is David Michikowski, and I'm counsel for the Ottawa Police Service.

02:25:04.840 One of the things I gather you know from your long experience as a Chief of Police is how important an operational plan is. Is that right?

02:25:14.220 Yes, sir.

02:25:14.520 And in order to have an operational plan to end the type of event that occurred in Ottawa, you'd agree with me it'd be necessary for the police to draw upon subject matter experts?

02:25:28.980 Very often the case, yes, sir.

02:25:30.540 And you wouldn't be critical, I take it, if the police needed to draw upon resources outside their own service, whether that be other Ontario services, the OPP, the RCMP, etc.

02:25:47.160 Not at all, sir. That's a very common practice.

02:25:49.400 And that might take a bit of time to assemble such a team. Fair enough.

02:25:53.400 Yes, sir.

02:25:53.700 um you participated in a meeting with um and you may have had more than one i believe with mayor

02:26:01.080 watson and minister mendicino i believe mr kanalakis um deputy minister stewart and at the time uh ops

02:26:10.460 in the city had made a request for more police resources do you recall that yes sir and um you

02:26:19.740 indicated at that meeting that it may be necessary to look at the matter of information sharing

02:26:29.480 around the allocation of resources. Because fair enough, you'd want to know what are you going to

02:26:34.980 do with those resources, correct? Yes, sir. And one of the things Deputy Chief Bell said at the time

02:26:42.360 was that the OPP were asking for the same thing, and then Minister Mendicino said,

02:26:48.820 we need to know from the chief what the plan is with the appropriate boundaries on operational

02:26:55.800 independence. How is the convoy being broken up and disengaged? And then he added, we need to know

02:27:03.440 the plan. And I take it you would agree with that. Respectfully, sir, I don't believe I needed to

02:27:09.300 know all of the operational details of the plan. I needed simply to be satisfied that the police

02:27:14.040 services that would be contributing to its execution would be involved in the plan and

02:27:19.040 be satisfied with its sufficiency. But I did not ask for details of the operational plan.

02:27:25.040 Right. So what you needed was the RCMP and the OPP to say they were satisfied with the

02:27:31.360 operational plans. When we were asking them to bring significant resources to bear, my understanding

02:27:37.520 from from them is that they also wanted to be satisfied to the sufficiency of the plan

02:27:44.520 and the subject of the ottawa police service not having a fully developed operational plan

02:27:51.420 came up several times during the period prior to the emergencies act invocation is that right and

02:27:58.100 yes sir i think i think that's fair we had heard it from a number of police officials

02:28:02.680 there was some general discussion about the plan right one of the comments I see that was made and

02:28:10.000 this may sound familiar was when they showed up there was no or or let me let me turn to the

02:28:21.680 document. Mr. Clerk, if you could please turn up ssm.can.ns402674. And if you could turn to the

02:28:35.380 first page of that, please. And so this is from Ms. S. Travis. And in it, that's your chief of

02:28:51.400 staff, correct? That's correct. And so she indicates there's an operational update as to what the

02:28:57.540 RCMP were reporting. RCMP integrated planning cell was set up to assess OPS operational plan.

02:29:06.060 I do have concern. Strategic tactical planners, OPP, OPS, RCMP were identified to be part of that

02:29:14.580 planning cell to review, challenge, and provide plan. When they showed up, there was no plan to

02:29:21.140 review slowly later verbally shared plan was not taking feedback or challenge no open discussion

02:29:30.260 on way forward um and i take it uh minister if those statements are true those actions by the

02:29:40.180 chief would be problematic is that fair and again i i'm i'm reluctant to comment on on

02:29:48.180 on Chief Slowley's involvement in this thing,

02:29:51.880 this is the information we were receiving back from the RCMP

02:29:54.500 and to me through my chief of staff about concerns that they had.

02:29:59.000 But again, not being part of this discussion,

02:30:02.620 I'm reluctant to characterize anybody's particular behavior on this.

02:30:06.980 But it's very clear that the RCMP had concerns.

02:30:10.440 And in fact, in text message with your chief of staff,

02:30:16.300 one of the things we see that you're saying is we still need to fairly clarify what is he going to

02:30:23.980 do with these resources if it's just more inaction the opp and other ontario police services will sit

02:30:31.580 this one out do you recall that exchange yeah yeah i do i i in my conversations with um a number of

02:30:39.200 police officials outside of the city, there was concern. They wanted to see an integrated

02:30:47.800 operational plan that involves an action to end the blockade, or end the protest.

02:30:55.440 And in another email exchange with your chief of staff, you also indicated, and that was the one

02:31:02.420 I think that Mr. Miller just took you to, as long as the city and the police refuse to do anything,

02:31:07.700 no progress will be possible, correct? There was a concern we were hearing from both the RCMP and

02:31:14.180 the OPP that they wanted to see an action plan for the resolution of the protests.

02:31:20.180 You talked about the importance of communication with the protesters and the style of communication.

02:31:26.700 I take it you wouldn't disagree with me that equally a chief of police needs to have the

02:31:32.720 ability to communicate effectively with those in his or her organization yes sir and as chief of

02:31:40.320 police it would be important to respect those uh below the chief in the chain of command yes sir

02:31:47.420 and you would not condone a chief of police telling his command that if they didn't support

02:31:52.880 his plan he will crush them i don't think that language is appropriate and you um you wouldn't

02:32:02.520 take, you understand that the RCMP and the OPP were asking for information on operational plans

02:32:11.140 and you indicated that that would make sense that they want that information if they're sending a

02:32:16.920 thousand or more officers, correct? I would expect that they would have an expectation to be aware of

02:32:23.940 how their people would be used. And you wouldn't take that as evidence that the RCMP wanted to see

02:32:29.420 the ops fail or that they were serving their political masters that wouldn't be the message

02:32:34.680 you'd want for a chief to deliver to his or her command team what it well again i have no direct

02:32:39.900 knowledge of of that communication but my expectation is is that every everyone was

02:32:46.280 had a strong interest in resolving this quickly and peaceably um you indicated that you attended

02:32:52.740 the irg uh meeting i believe all of them correct yes sir and one of the things i note at the um

02:32:59.040 February 12th IRG meeting was the commissioner of the RCMP advised that there continued to be

02:33:08.100 challenges working with the integrated planning team in Ottawa around communication and decisive

02:33:15.500 it says decisively I assume it's a typo communication and decisiveness of the OPS

02:33:23.020 chief you heard her make that comment correct yes sir and that did not come as a complete surprise

02:33:28.880 to you did it i was hopeful that they would be able to resolve it um you understood that

02:33:35.080 ultimately the integrated planning team um did come up with a plan that was very successfully

02:33:41.260 uh executed yes sir as i commented in my earlier testimony and that team only came together about

02:33:50.080 on or about february 9th and the plan was then actually signed off on february 13th and and sir

02:33:56.720 I don't have a line of sight into the internal meetings and discussions that were taking place.

02:34:03.900 That was not shared with me.

02:34:05.400 I was aware that all three organizations were working together,

02:34:09.340 but the timing and the steps that were taken, I don't have a set.

02:34:14.500 And you also attended the February 13th cabinet meeting.

02:34:18.300 Yes, sir.

02:34:18.640 And at that meeting, it was reported that there was potential for a breakthrough in Ottawa, correct?

02:34:23.420 i can pull up the document if you need to see it it might be useful to see the document i don't

02:34:29.560 have a precise recollection of that comment okay um the document is um ssm nsc dot can

02:34:39.440 uh five zeros two one six and it's on page eight

02:34:44.840 and I believe it's six lines up from the bottom

02:35:05.380 with respect to recent actions the national security and intelligence advisor indicated

02:35:11.320 that law enforcement gains have been important and that there was potential for a breakthrough

02:35:15.540 in ottawa ontario do you see that yes sir and you understand that the breakthrough was that there

02:35:21.460 was now an integrated uh operational plan correct and and again i i i recall this now knowing that

02:35:29.380 there was a breakthrough in ottawa we were also made aware that enforcement significant enforcement

02:35:33.600 action was now taking place in coots alberta um and and that the cabinet was informed about that

02:35:38.900 I don't have a recollection of the exact nature of the potential breakthrough

02:35:42.580 to which the NSA refers. And finally, if I may just have two minutes left, Commissioner,

02:35:48.460 I was hoping not to have to go to the document so that used a bit of time, but I will be very quick.

02:35:55.120 Go ahead. You had certain frustrations with Chief Slowly, and there's a text message

02:36:07.260 exchange with your chief of staff where you refer to your frustrations with chief slowly which is

02:36:13.580 an internal issue we need to be met that needs to be managed do you know that uh text message

02:36:19.860 exchange no sir i don't recall okay um it's ssm.nsc.can.03 uh sorry uh four zeros 3014

02:36:37.260 so it says individuals have relayed your frustrations with ops slowly which is an

02:36:51.540 internal issue we need to manage i assure them that mendocino has been working with the rcmp

02:36:57.560 i've relayed this conversation to nsia pmo and mendocino chief of staff i think what was what was

02:37:05.960 being spoken of here um was that unfortunately some people were talking making assumptions and

02:37:12.440 and speaking about um some of the concerns that i was expressing about the the police response

02:37:17.800 to the ottawa thing and and i was concerned that frankly some people had been uh speaking in in my

02:37:24.680 stead i'm perfectly capable of speaking for myself and was was concerned that others were doing that

02:37:31.160 and ultimately just to finish off uh you had an email a text message exchange with senator verne

02:37:37.960 white yes sir senator white was the former chief of police of ottawa yes sir and he expressed the

02:37:44.680 view that chief slowly had not done his job and you didn't disagree with that in that exchange

02:37:51.560 did you i i didn't take a position one way or the other and and if if i may sir um i think i've known

02:37:58.280 chief slowly for a very long time we worked together for 25 years and he used to be my field

02:38:02.040 deputy when i was the chief in the in the toronto police service he was facing a very difficult

02:38:06.840 situation and and and in a very challenging environment um i have respect for the man and

02:38:14.040 for the very difficult job he had to do and when you stated that the police response was inexplicable

02:38:19.160 that was after the actions on phase and you indicated at that point that the police then

02:38:28.500 had redeemed themselves. And to be very clear when I said that I was asked specifically about

02:38:35.340 the police response and I said it was somewhat inexplicable and to be really clear what that

02:38:40.760 means is I could neither explain nor account for the police response it really isn't my place to

02:38:46.040 explain or account for it and so i characterize it as inexplicable and ultimately they redeemed

02:38:52.160 themselves well and and the work and as i've already characterized in my earlier testimony

02:38:56.300 i think that they did an excellent job in in in utilizing the tools that were available to them

02:39:01.880 in clearing the convoy um in the week following the invocation of the act thank you very much

02:39:06.580 thank you sir okay for the opp please

02:39:10.580 commissioner i will endeavor not to go over time

02:39:20.020 be nice good evening minister chris diana council to the opp we've heard pretty extensive evidence

02:39:33.140 from both ottawa police service and winter police service witnesses that the opp provided

02:39:38.420 significant support to both ottawa and windsor i don't know if you've heard any of that evidence

02:39:43.060 yes sir i have and and i would agree with it all right and former chief slowly in particular was

02:39:48.660 very complimentary of the assistance provided by commissioner karik and the resources provided that

02:39:54.020 helped bring it into the protest correct yes sir and as you said you would agree with that assessment

02:40:00.820 yes sir i would all right and that assistance started with a hand in reports went to frontline

02:40:06.740 officers pou support integrated planning team leadership and that's just in the ottawa context

02:40:12.020 correct and and if i may sir i'm not familiar with any report it wasn't intelligence that i

02:40:16.020 had access to um or the internal activities within the police service but my general overall

02:40:22.260 impression is that the opp were very helpful all right can we go to document ssm.nsc.can402983

02:40:36.740 so what i'm bringing you to appears to be a text exchange between you and your chief of stress

02:40:44.020 the chief of staff mrs stravis now unfortunately there doesn't appear to be a date on this if you

02:40:49.220 can scroll down and allow the witness to see it it's fairly short down at the end

02:40:58.420 now at the bottom you'll see that you suggested that chief slowly does not have a strong support

02:41:04.340 network within provincial police leadership now again i don't have a date on this but certainly

02:41:10.740 at the time you wrote this you would not have been privy to the many text messages and phone calls

02:41:15.540 between chief slowly and commissioner kareek correct and and and to be clear i wasn't referring

02:41:20.420 to commissioner kareek or the ontario provincial police in that message i was i was referring to

02:41:25.220 his relationship with some of the other police services in ontario oh i see so when it says

02:41:29.220 within provincial police leadership you weren't referring to the opp you were referring perhaps

02:41:32.820 to other police leaders yes sir but not the opp no sir

02:41:42.180 all right and was this your own observation or was that observation made by others that you

02:41:45.700 were forwarding on it it was in part my own observation but also in feedback i was receiving

02:41:52.340 from former colleagues was that the view of cabinet no sir

02:41:56.980 all right i'd like to move to another issue which is consultation on the emergencies act

02:42:05.500 if you can bring up a clerk mr clerk document id pb.nsc.can403256

02:42:17.220 and while that's loading we've heard evidence from commissioner lucky that the rcmp did not

02:42:24.960 request the Emergencies Act, but she was asked to provide a list of tools that may be useful

02:42:30.160 in terms of the Emergencies Act legislation. I'm sure you're familiar with that.

02:42:34.640 Sure.

02:42:35.760 All right. So what we have here is an email exchange between Mike Jones, who I understand

02:42:40.740 is what the Chief of Staff of Minister Mendicino.

02:42:44.160 Yes, sir.

02:42:44.920 And of course, Commissioner Lucky. If you can just kind of scroll down a little bit,

02:42:49.620 This appears to be the commissioner's kind of list of tools that could be potentially useful.

02:42:57.140 Did you see a copy of this list?

02:42:59.100 No, sir.

02:43:01.440 Now, by this point, if you scroll to the top, just so we can get the date, this was February.

02:43:06.760 If we subtract five hours, this was the evening of February 13th.

02:43:10.440 And by this point, on February 13th, the OPP was heavily involved in policing protests all across Ontario.

02:43:16.880 you spoke about this in your evidence both leading the enforcement in windsor integrated planning

02:43:23.760 team in ottawa 402 there were other areas in ontario correct so the opp you would agree was

02:43:30.240 heavily engaged throughout the province yes sir right what i asked both deputy minister deputy

02:43:38.080 minister stewart and commissioner lucky about consultation and both agreed that in light of

02:43:44.000 that context where opp was heavily involved and would be using these tools the opp could have

02:43:49.920 provided valuable input into the request as to what would be useful or necessary policing tools

02:43:57.280 would you agree with that i'm not sure what the opp might have provided there was also um an issue

02:44:04.400 of the decision had not yet been made at the at the time of this email it was it was under

02:44:08.880 consideration but but the decision had not um been made and and it it was you know a matter

02:44:17.200 there was still a very important uh consultation that the prime minister had to undertake

02:44:22.320 uh with the first ministers from across the country and and so the decision to invoke and

02:44:27.520 had not yet been made uh there was some consultation internally about useful tools

02:44:32.880 but but it wasn't completely it wasn't fulsomely uh pursued because of the need to maintain

02:44:40.480 um the process that is required under the legislation no fair enough but it would have

02:44:45.760 been relatively easy for commissioner lucky to reach out to commissioner to creek to say

02:44:49.840 just in case at some point we get to an emergency that can vacation are there any tools you might

02:44:54.400 find useful that could have happened right well i i have no knowledge direct knowledge of that

02:44:59.440 But we were also, over the course of the entire event, witnessing some of the challenges, the very real challenges that law enforcement, the OPP, the RCMP, and many others were experiencing in this event.

02:45:11.440 And it very much informed our deliberations and consideration of various tools that might be useful to the police response.

02:45:19.080 Sure, but you're not in the command room anymore, right?

02:45:20.880 I mean, you're observing from afar, but Commissioner Karik would certainly have the better perspective on it.

02:45:26.000 No, and I agree, but it's also I think one has to be circumspect about it's not the police that determine what tools would be provided under the Emergencies Act.

02:45:39.100 We consult with them on some of the challenges that they were facing, but it is a responsibility of government to determine what measures would be appropriate under the Act.

02:45:47.260 Sure, the decision is made by politicians, but ultimately, in terms of proportionality and using only the tools that are useful and necessary, it's a good idea to reach out to law enforcement, isn't it?

02:45:58.060 And again, to understand the challenges that they were facing, but not specifically to ask them what additional tools.

02:46:04.360 I don't believe that would have been appropriate.

02:46:06.320 I've never been in a circumstances where, you know, that was a question put to a police leader.

02:46:11.780 What additional legislative tools do you require?

02:46:13.680 so we heard from from mr the deputy minister mendicino sorry deputy minister

02:46:19.280 di tamaso that that's what happened before the ontario emergency legislation that he consulted

02:46:23.600 that way and of course commissioner lucky was consulted for tools but you think it's somehow

02:46:28.720 inappropriate to ask police for input on this i i i think there is a an appropriate process

02:46:35.600 um i'm mindful that of deputy excuse me commissioner karek's reporting responsibility

02:46:41.200 to Deputy Minister Di Tommaso.

02:46:43.160 I'm also well aware of Commissioner Luckey's reporting relationship to Minister Minichino.

02:46:49.160 I'm not part of either of those.

02:46:51.420 All right, okay.

02:46:51.840 So just so I'm clear, would you disagree then with Commissioner Luckey and Deputy Minister

02:46:55.360 Stewart that there ought to have been consultation in that regard?

02:46:59.360 I think consultation on the challenges that the police were facing.

02:47:03.580 I would not personally have asked what additional legislative authorities they might require,

02:47:09.320 But it's very helpful to understand the difficulties that they were having with existing authorities.

02:47:14.480 Right. Now, of course, you're not like most of their cabinet ministers because you're looking at this as a 30 plus year police leader yourself, correct?

02:47:22.200 Close to 40, I'm afraid.

02:47:23.720 Right. As a police leader.

02:47:25.260 But in fairness, I don't have that role anymore.

02:47:28.640 And I'm mindful of the responsibilities of my current position and that I no longer hold that position.

02:47:33.880 All right. Fair enough. I'll move on. I've only got a couple of minutes left here.

02:47:36.380 in your capacity as a politician as a cabinet minister of course you're no longer in the room

02:47:42.620 the police room so that you're no longer having a direct look at the intelligence reports you have

02:47:49.400 to rely on your federal law enforcement advisors various agencies to advise you what the situation

02:47:56.420 is correct yes sir i i i have been regularly briefed by for example the national security

02:48:00.860 intelligence advisor the rcmp commissioner and the director of cesus but i don't have any line

02:48:06.860 of sight in into the raw intelligence or many of the reports and you rely on those agencies and

02:48:13.500 the national security advisor to give you credible and reliable information so that you can make

02:48:18.060 informed decisions as a cabinet minister yes sir now you mentioned you had never heard of project

02:48:22.860 tendon and nor would you have any had any reason to correct i i was not familiar with that

02:48:28.060 subsequently after you know other information came out particularly through testimony i've

02:48:32.540 heard the phrase but at the time i was not familiar with that portfolio of intelligence

02:48:38.620 all right now we know from the hendon reports and we've looked at this in some detail that

02:48:41.820 as early as january the 20th which is a week before the protest started to arrive

02:48:46.140 that the opp had warned in its reports that this may not be a short protest you've probably heard

02:48:51.260 some of that evidence yes sir that there was no exit strategy and that some at least some

02:48:55.820 protesters intended to stay until the demands were met correct i've heard that subsequently right

02:49:01.580 there was there was conflicting uh information and intelligence that was being made available

02:49:05.900 uh to me prior to the arrival of the block uh the protests um in in ottawa but you know quite frankly

02:49:12.540 there was also open source reporting that the that some intended to remain right as a decision

02:49:18.460 maker it's important to know as much as you can about potential risks of any situation always our

02:49:24.300 hope and of course intelligence that you get in the hendon reports would be more valuable than

02:49:29.580 simply uh opening the twitter machine right of course all right i see in exactly my 10 minutes

02:49:34.940 i need about 45 to 60 seconds can i have it commissioner go ahead i i was hopeful but

02:49:43.260 all right so not only is important that you would know this information but you want to be told

02:49:46.780 in a timely way so that you can make appropriate preparations and again there's a decision as to

02:49:51.980 what information is appropriate to share with cabinet but but of course we want that information

02:49:56.620 to be as clear as possible not only so that so that we can assess um it's it's it's on its

02:50:02.460 merits but also its credibility and and so that information could be very important to us and the

02:50:06.940 reason i ask i go back to a phrase used by my friend for the commission earlier when he talked

02:50:10.780 about if there's a hurricane moving up the coast you know you want to know well in advance and i'm

02:50:15.020 not analogizing necessarily between the convoy and hurricane but the earlier you would know the

02:50:19.900 better correct yes sir just went through hurricane fiona and we were tracking really carefully where

02:50:25.020 it was going to make landfall right and so your first briefing according to your witness summary

02:50:28.300 was actually january 27th that's that's in your witness summary yeah i believe that's correct and

02:50:32.700 that's a full week after the opp reported ahead and about the fact it could be a long protest

02:50:39.900 i again again sir i didn't have a i didn't have any information about that i'll take your word

02:50:43.900 for it of course but but i did receive my first briefing i believe on january 27th all right thank

02:50:49.260 you thank you for the intelligence commissioner much appreciated okay next is uh council for

02:50:55.660 former chief slowly thank you minister i'm tom curry for your former your former colleague

02:51:11.980 chief slowly um can i start by asking you a couple of questions about your relationship with

02:51:22.460 the former chief he was your deputy chief for the period 2009 to 2015 i guess sir

02:51:30.000 and prior to that i think you told the commissioner that you had worked with him

02:51:34.140 in the aggregate for 25 years close to it sir i think we first became like he was actually

02:51:40.600 He was subordinate to me in the division I ran beginning around 1997 or 1998.

02:51:45.760 Right.

02:51:47.380 And during the time that you worked with him, he had succeeded under your command in achieving promotions and taking on increasing responsibilities.

02:51:58.740 Yes, sir.

02:51:59.580 And you knew him then and now to be an experienced and effective police leader.

02:52:05.500 Is that true?

02:52:05.900 Yes, sir. I have great respect for Chief Sloley, Mr. Peter Sloley.

02:52:11.700 And that included, as I understand it, in matters that concerned public demonstrations.

02:52:19.400 You mentioned the Tamil demonstrations.

02:52:21.600 I understand that Chief Sloley, or at that time, not Chief Sloley, but at that time as a member of the Toronto Police Service,

02:52:27.700 that he was a major incident commander in that respect.

02:52:30.520 There were a number of my commanders, but Peter also held that role in the service at that time.

02:52:35.360 And you have seen firsthand his ability to manage successfully large-scale public demonstrations.

02:52:43.020 And again, I did not have direct observation of Peter dealing with large public order events.

02:52:49.500 Of course, his actual involvement in the G20, as I recall, was somewhat more limited.

02:52:55.260 But certainly I recall quite vividly the Tamil protests.

02:52:59.180 frankly i think we took a very careful measured approach to that and and frankly i've always

02:53:06.800 been proud of my my services keeping everybody safe in those circumstances including the role

02:53:11.660 that he played including all of the men and women who were involved in that that effort it was very

02:53:15.700 much a team effort thank you now the and in that during the time that you were chief of the toronto

02:53:23.820 police service and and uh deputy chief slowly or chief superintendent he held a number of different

02:53:29.980 ranks during your tenure he had your confidence and respect yes sir just to be clear if i may

02:53:38.940 he i i deployed him as my field commander which put him in charge of close to 4 000 of my officers

02:53:44.380 responsible all of our divisional response which was one of the largest and most significant jobs

02:53:48.860 in the police service and and during that time you were asked a number of questions by my

02:53:53.820 my friend for the Ottawa Police Service about the role of a chief and various other aspects of things.

02:54:03.500 During the time that you worked with Chief Slowley, you just confirmed he had your confidence and respect,

02:54:11.640 and you saw him in command, and he was a good commander. True?

02:54:14.940 Yes, sir.

02:54:16.380 Now, when he came here to the city of Ottawa to become the chief,

02:54:20.060 you understood also that it was to implement a change mandate on behalf of the police services

02:54:24.780 board yes sir including in respect of the board's effort to try to improve the relationship between

02:54:33.420 the ottawa police service and racialized communities marginalized communities yes sir

02:54:39.020 and those strategies are uh are challenging strategies as an agent of change is that true

02:54:47.100 I have had considerable experience, Toronto being a very diverse city in bringing about a stronger relationship between the police and the minority communities we serve.

02:54:57.120 I was going to say that you yourself made improving community policing one of your objectives as Chief of the Toronto Police Service.

02:55:04.520 Very much so.

02:55:05.480 And, of course, Deputy Chief, slowly at that time, was an important member of your command team on that score.

02:55:12.440 Yes, sir.

02:55:12.780 now when he when he came to ottawa you learned am i right that he faced some opposition from

02:55:22.760 within the rank and file actually peter reached out to me upon his appointment and we met and

02:55:28.400 at his he requested we went and we had breakfast and we talked about the challenges of taking in

02:55:33.400 over a new organization and the change agenda he was hoping to implement got it now the turning

02:55:39.700 for just one second to the to the events of the convoy protests uh you've already said in your

02:55:45.940 statement and to to my friends that these were unprecedented events in your nearly 40 years of

02:55:51.220 police and you've never seen anything like this there were certain aspects of it that were unique

02:55:55.380 and uniquely challenging and in terms of the questions that you were just asked by my friend

02:56:00.260 on behalf of the opp about what could have been known or foreseen i won't take you to the documents

02:56:06.980 because there are a number of them, and I won't take the time.

02:56:11.180 But were you aware that representatives of the RCMP, the OPP,

02:56:16.860 the Surete de Québec Parliamentary Protective Service

02:56:20.800 all reviewed the Ottawa Police Service plan for the convoy?

02:56:27.700 I'm not aware of that activity, sir. I had no hindsight to it.

02:56:31.240 Or that you wouldn't be aware that the OPP,

02:56:34.140 one member of the OPP, described the OPS plan for managing the convoy in advance as a robust plan.

02:56:42.420 Again, I've not seen any documents with respect to that. I have no knowledge of it.

02:56:46.860 Fair enough. And it's as I understand it, you haven't you yourself haven't you aren't second

02:56:54.460 guessing the Ottawa Police Services plan or the plan that was reviewed by those other police

02:56:59.500 services in advance of the convoy. No, sir. And quite frankly, I have no insight into the

02:57:03.940 plan. I don't inquire about the plan. I only needed some assurance that one was in place.

02:57:08.540 And then once it was here and it became a very different protest leading eventually to an

02:57:16.020 occupation, you understood that the Ottawa Police Service on its own lacked the resources to manage

02:57:21.680 it successfully. That had been made clear to me, yes. And you accepted that? Yes, sir. Now,

02:57:27.140 Now, let me just take you to one document that one of my friends had projected for a second, just while I have it.

02:57:35.640 SSM, please, Mr. Registrar, SSM, NSC, C-A-N, 2983.

02:57:43.380 Minister, this was shown to you a moment ago.

02:57:45.200 I'm just going to ask you to look at a different line than the one that was shown.

02:57:52.840 Thank you.

02:57:53.440 Just scroll down if you don't mind.

02:57:54.880 please keep keep going and keep going a little bit there thank you stop I doubt you wrote this

02:58:03.660 I doubt Peter is getting a lot of support in his own organization they are likely sitting back

02:58:09.860 and waiting for him to flounder and then the line that was read to you earlier about

02:58:14.740 lack of a strong support network within other police leadership just focusing on the first

02:58:21.260 part of that sentence, it was your concern that members of his own police service, the Ottawa

02:58:27.820 Police Service, were not supporting this chief. And if I may, just to be very fair here, I have

02:58:35.040 no information. I have no insight into, you know, what was going on within the Ottawa Police

02:58:40.060 headquarters. I don't know. I don't know the men and women under his command or anything that may

02:58:44.880 have, you know, we've heard some evidence since, but I had no sense of that. But I was concerned

02:58:50.140 because in a conversation Peter Knight had upon his appointment

02:58:55.240 that he was coming in with a strong change mandate,

02:58:58.020 and I know how challenging that can be.

02:59:01.040 And the expression to hear in this text or message

02:59:06.580 was a very real concern for you.

02:59:10.060 Is that fair?

02:59:11.040 That you were concerned that his own command team

02:59:15.040 or at least members of his own organization

02:59:17.160 would sit back and wait for him to flounder not support him in the expectation that perhaps he

02:59:23.920 would fail and pay a price not unlike the one that you were invited to comment about by his

02:59:29.540 own police service in their questions to you well and and again to be fair i i was speculating here

02:59:35.860 and and i don't wanted to characterize this as based on any factual information that was available

02:59:41.720 to me but i i was concerned um that that that in in a very challenging set of circumstances

02:59:50.680 it's really cohesion within the command structure is really really important and i was concerned

02:59:55.880 that that cohesion may not have been as strong as it needed to be understood and of course one

03:00:00.760 cannot lead an organization that does not wish to to be led very easily right i know a little bit

03:00:10.200 about the challenge of leading a large police organization and i think leadership is very

03:00:15.320 important but i would also say leadership doesn't exist just in the chief's office there's leadership

03:00:19.640 throughout the entire organization and it and that leadership has to be mobilized to get the job done

03:00:24.360 understood now a couple of things if i may please um the the um i want to ask you if i could about

03:00:34.200 rfa requests for assistance can i just ask you please to confirm that the solicitor general

03:00:39.480 ontario asked for the use of the cartier drill hall you recall this yes sir and am i right that

03:00:46.760 the solicitor general ontario asked for that for that use of the cartier drill hall parking lot

03:00:52.440 for two days being the weekend of the protest yes sir and i i also recall being able to give a

03:00:58.200 positive answer to that request right and you've exactly you made that available just for the record

03:01:02.920 commissioner ss i don't want to see it but ssm can four five uh six four um minister you you spoke

03:01:12.680 about uh just in terms of the role of the chief could you help the com this commissioner please

03:01:17.000 with this question during the operations in respect of that tamil protest in your witness

03:01:22.440 statement i won't take you to it but you described how or i think today you described how you directed

03:01:27.800 operations when when you needed to as the chief in terms of keeping the the protesters safe on the

03:01:34.760 off ramps and and just to be very clear i was taking advice and guidance from my operational

03:01:39.200 commanders on the ground who told me that this situation couldn't be resolved utilizing our

03:01:44.840 normal public order tactics without putting people at significant risk and and and therefore

03:01:50.620 it was on their advice that i made the decision that that we would engage with these people and

03:01:55.920 find um another way to resolve understood and in the same way i think in your witness statement i

03:02:01.520 don't want to turn it up see if this recall if you recall this it's paragraph five for the record

03:02:06.720 you you reviewed and approved plans as the chief concerning the g20 protests yes sir and and in

03:02:13.280 fact as the chief of police there were literally dozens of protests taking place in toronto every

03:02:19.360 single week and and i for the larger events would have those operational plans presented to me

03:02:25.040 for my awareness the the the command structure for those events was not the chief doesn't

03:02:32.140 command those events we actually maintained a very robust um command structure for for those

03:02:38.960 types of events and i think the language that you used in your statement was uh that you would

03:02:43.860 review those approve them and and then present them to the board yes sir thank you now um

03:02:49.480 Commissioner, I'm going to go a little over time with your consent, only because my friends

03:02:56.040 for the commission introduced a few new things through the minister about police services.

03:02:59.860 Yeah, no, you're already over time, so don't get me wrong, you're already there.

03:03:04.380 So I'm going to see what I can do as quickly as I can do it, but thank you for that.

03:03:10.940 The resources.

03:03:14.020 You mentioned to the commissioner that you received a request for resources

03:03:18.440 from Windsor for the Ambassador Bridge blockade. Can you confirm that you received those

03:03:28.680 via a letter directly from the chief of police to you, and one similarly went to Minister Jones?

03:03:35.740 Yes, sir. We did, in fact, receive that letter. It wasn't something that I, frankly,

03:03:40.420 I'm not authorized to deal with, a request for assistance coming from a municipal police chief,

03:03:44.720 but it was referred back to other officials to deal with.

03:03:48.160 Right, understood.

03:03:48.980 But in that respect, regarding Windsor,

03:03:51.720 the request for resources came to you as the minister,

03:03:54.960 to Minister Jones, for her counterpart.

03:03:58.040 There was an urgent need for resources

03:04:00.220 and you did what you could to send them urgently.

03:04:03.340 Fair?

03:04:04.060 I think in fairness, it was the OPP

03:04:06.000 that responded to the Windsor situation.

03:04:09.160 And again, I stand to be corrected,

03:04:12.240 but I understood that the Windsor Police Chief utilized the authorities under the existing Police Services Act

03:04:19.220 in order to seek out the assistance in support of the OPP.

03:04:22.380 So I think, I won't take you to it, but just for the record, Commissioner,

03:04:25.600 WIN 1648 and 1649 are letters not directed under the Police Services Act,

03:04:31.940 rather directly to you and to the Minister.

03:04:33.740 Yes, sir.

03:04:34.060 You passed them on and the resources came from the RCMP and the OPP,

03:04:38.280 but nobody followed the Police Services Act protocol in Windsor.

03:04:41.480 I'm not sure, sir. My understanding is with the OPP involvement there, they essentially led that response. That was my understanding.

03:04:50.800 And the Police Services Act protocol to which you referred isn't mandatory in respect of a sequencing.

03:04:58.960 It is there, but police services, including at the time that you were the chief in Toronto, gain resources through memorandum of agreement and other requests through police services, right?

03:05:08.980 Generally for planned events, yes.

03:05:11.900 When I made reference in my early remarks to the Police Services Act and the provision within the act for a chief of police to deal with an emergency that exceeds their capacity, there is that provision in the act.

03:05:23.140 But I am in agreement, sir, that quite routinely for a lot of these events, they reach out to neighboring police services and people come to help each other as best they can.

03:05:30.860 And what you observed from Chief Slowly was that he was trying his best to get the support he needed for the community to keep the protest safe and his own service safe, correct?

03:05:43.120 He was certainly advocating for what he believed to be the necessary resources.

03:05:47.460 And your observation was that he acted in good faith in the performance of his duties?

03:05:51.700 I did not detect any element of bad faith.

03:05:54.720 and that he did you were you made aware i assume that you weren't you did not know of the plans

03:06:00.540 that the ops had their evolution and the approvals that chief slowly chief slowly's team gave to those

03:06:06.900 plans no sir as i've previously testified i i made no inquiry and received no information of

03:06:11.660 the operational plans that were either being developed or in place the information that you

03:06:16.880 received as a minister and in cabinet came in respect of police services and resources through

03:06:22.500 Commissioner Luckey, is that fair? Primarily through Commissioner Luckey, yes. And are you aware

03:06:26.380 that certain of the information that you received turned out not to be accurate in terms of the

03:06:32.180 resources? I'll give you a couple of examples that you were aware of what has been described,

03:06:37.800 I think, by Deputy Commissioner Duhame to the Commissioner as a mix-up about the 250 RCMP

03:06:44.380 officers. I'm not familiar with Deputy Duhame's testimony. I wasn't following it. What about

03:06:51.980 minister jones 1500 opp officers on the ground in in ottawa were you aware she made that statement

03:06:58.860 i'm not okay or that therefore that it was inaccurate you wouldn't have known that

03:07:03.320 no sir a couple of last things and if i may you you uh i think in your evidence in your

03:07:12.200 statement have described that you had requested or spoken with chief slowly about the possibility

03:07:17.620 of tagging vehicles and towing vehicles he explained to you why that was not possible

03:07:22.820 as a matter of safe enforcement and you accepted his his conclusion and did you did you know that

03:07:29.460 rcmp and opp officials were urging ops through chief slowly and others to not take enforcement

03:07:36.980 steps because in ottawa they lacked resources to do so safely i'm not aware of that if they did you

03:07:43.940 would again defer to them as them and the ops as to the people with the best line of sight into that

03:07:50.420 of course chief slowly gave me an explanation and i accepted that he was the chief of police

03:07:56.340 and that was his belief last thing then please if if i could because of course you know minister

03:08:03.220 from the nature of the questions that you've been asked that there's a great deal of of scrutiny

03:08:09.140 about what Chief Peter Slowley did here in Ottawa.

03:08:12.460 Can you agree that in hindsight that more could have been done

03:08:16.160 and sooner to assist Chief Slowley and the OPS

03:08:20.180 to secure the assistance of resources?

03:08:22.760 I believe with the clarity of hindsight, sir,

03:08:25.100 that there were a number of steps that upon reflection,

03:08:28.260 I think everyone involved would have liked to have seen a quicker outcome.

03:08:33.640 I'm very mindful of the enormous impact this was having

03:08:36.360 on the people of Ottawa in particular.

03:08:37.720 and and because of some of the other then related protest activities across the country was huge

03:08:43.820 hugely impactful upon all Canadians and so the the timeliness of of resolving that I think was

03:08:50.720 it was important to all of us and in hindsight I think that's it's also our responsibility

03:08:54.980 to learn from that experience and make sure that we can do it better next time. And in hindsight

03:09:01.440 nothing more chiefs really could have done individually to make a difference. Well again

03:09:05.200 you did that that's a judgment but i don't have enough information to make respectfully um but

03:09:10.080 but at the same time time i think we we all need to reflect on how we could have resolved this

03:09:14.400 quicker and more peace more effectively thank you commissioner thank you minister okay next is uh

03:09:22.480 and now we're into the shorter more challenging uh timelines uh city of ottawa

03:09:35.200 Thank you, Commissioner. I'll do my best. Minister, my name is Alyssa Tompkins. I'm

03:09:44.300 one of the lawyers representing the City of Ottawa. So I will try to be quick. I do want

03:09:50.460 to take you to a couple documents, though. So first document, Mr. Clerk, ssm.nsc.can

03:09:59.000 uh four zeros two nine nine three

03:10:11.320 so this is one of the texts between you and your chief of staff and it's just this comment so if

03:10:19.640 we see there uh a date below uh thursday february 10th but i'm actually looking at one of the

03:10:26.440 comments above and i believe if we scroll up um because i believe these are uh produced by your

03:10:34.600 chief of staff so your texts are the ones on the left and there's in white yes sir and there's a

03:10:40.920 comment that says uh and it's not really going to help in ottawa unless the opp take over here

03:10:46.520 i just want to know what you meant by the opp taking over i i i again i'm not entirely clear

03:10:53.720 on the context of this because there's clearly conversation that was taking place before

03:10:58.040 but i i i believe that um it was going to be necessary for the opp to to have a much greater

03:11:05.640 operational role in in this in in the resolution of this event for for public order okay and if

03:11:13.400 the next document we can go to ssm.nsc.can403140 um more text messages between you and your chiefs

03:11:38.840 of staff now here it's just forwarding tweets but there's a tweet being forwarded from robert fife

03:11:44.600 that says this is what ontario government sources have said was coming she slowly pushed aside to

03:11:50.760 allow opp rcmp to take charge of 16 days of chaos in downtown i think you then forward a text from

03:11:58.600 glenn mcgregor maybe the opp will help i'm just wondering particularly with respect to the text

03:12:03.640 from mr fife um the he's hearing from ontario government sources that uh opp and rcmp are

03:12:11.480 coming i was just wondering sir whether you ever heard anything to that effect from the

03:12:16.280 province no no ma'am my only knowledge of of this information was what mr fife was tweeting

03:12:21.080 and that's why i shared it with my chief of staff okay no those are those are my questions uh thank

03:12:26.280 you very much sir well under your time okay next is the ottawa coalition

03:12:43.560 thank you commissioner i'll try to be as efficient as my friend miss domkins

03:12:47.000 uh minister my name is paul champ i'm one of the lawyers for the ottawa coalition of residents and

03:12:51.400 businesses um as the toronto police chief for 10 years uh minister i gather you to become very

03:12:58.840 familiar with the police services act yes sir in ontario and you know that at the police services

03:13:03.800 act uh the mayor of a city is by default a member of the police services board unless he or she

03:13:09.720 delegates it i'm aware that that it is it is a position that that they get ex-officio but they

03:13:17.320 they can delegate it to others. And I'm also aware of many municipalities where the mayor

03:13:21.140 chooses not to sit on the board. And in your last, I think the last mayor you had when you were chief

03:13:27.240 is Mayor Tory, he sat on the board? Not while I was the chief, sir. I don't, well, perhaps maybe

03:13:33.540 for a few months, but only a few months. You were near the end. I was kind of on my way out the door.

03:13:37.900 One foot out the door. And prior to that, it was chief, actually Mayor Miller had served on the

03:13:43.360 board for a period of time not his entire term right mayor ford didn't choose to we won't go

03:13:48.000 into that uh no sir um now you convened tripartite meetings on february 7th 8th and 10th with uh

03:13:55.320 intended to be the municipal provincial and federal levels of government is that right

03:13:58.540 that had been my hope yes and uh you had uh from ottawa uh city manager steve cantalucos

03:14:05.140 and mayor jim watson is that right yes and when you dealt with mayor watson uh you would have

03:14:10.200 assumed he was chair of the police services board is that right i don't think i was making that

03:14:14.940 assumption i i'm not aware of that did you know if he was the chief or if the if he was on the

03:14:19.560 board or not no and i apologize but i'm not that familiar with ottawa council or its board right

03:14:25.340 but given your um familiarity with the police services act uh would you not have wanted to

03:14:30.200 deal with uh someone from the police services board who actually has some operational uh guidance and

03:14:36.640 responsibility over the ottawa police if i may i don't think that's an appropriate um discussion

03:14:43.040 for a minister of the federal government to engage with the chair of a municipal police services

03:14:47.360 board my intention in establishing the tripartite table was to bring the three orders of government

03:14:52.240 right and and i and i use that word advisedly by the way because i don't believe in levels

03:14:55.920 there are orders of government the federal provincial and the municipal um governments

03:15:00.880 all had a responsibility to to work together to collaborate and it was my intention to convene

03:15:06.400 that discussion but i gather then though if you were sharing information with uh the mayor and

03:15:13.040 the city manager uh that was relevant uh for the police services board you would have assumed the

03:15:18.160 mayor and the city manager would have shared that information the police services i again i make no

03:15:22.640 assumptions about those discussions my intention was to bring the federal provincial and municipal

03:15:27.920 governments to the table but to do what sir it's about managing the police services no sir it's

03:15:33.520 It's about managing the protest that was taking place in Ottawa.

03:15:36.260 It was hugely impactful.

03:15:37.160 There is a police, obviously a police responsibility there, but respectfully, I don't believe it is my place.

03:15:44.040 And I've always been meticulously careful not to in any way interfere with police operations.

03:15:49.360 I believe, you know, the city clearly has a role with that with their police services board, but not directly from me.

03:15:55.300 Now, we know from your testimony or for your witness statement as well that it appears that there was indeed a lack, a delay in resources, RCMP resources being provided to the City of Ottawa, in part because there wasn't a firm plan in place for the deployment of those resources, correct?

03:16:12.340 There are a number of reasons I've come to learn as to some of the challenges of deploying those resources.

03:16:18.780 Some of them were also deployed in a number of functions, as I understood it, that were dispersed from the downtown core.

03:16:23.760 but you you and on your witness statement anyway sir uh which i understand you've adopted you said

03:16:29.180 one of the first one of the main reasons was that there was not a firm operational plan in place and

03:16:34.680 and and that's true mr champ there was a concern that we were hearing from not just the rcmp but

03:16:40.580 other police services that they wanted confidence that an operational action plan was was in place

03:16:48.020 before they were able to deploy their resources and you would have agreed with me sir that would

03:16:51.440 been important for that information to be shared by someone in some way with the Ottawa Police

03:16:56.100 Services Board? I'm going to object. This is, again, Alyssa Tompkins. Chair Deans, in her witness

03:17:05.180 statement, stated that she knew that there was not, that there was a concern that there wasn't

03:17:12.760 a plan. And my friend keeps putting that to witnesses to try to get them to agree. When her

03:17:17.940 witness summary which she adopted on cross and confirmed uh states expressly that she was aware

03:17:24.180 that well i'm ready for my friend this time if i may commissioner uh the testimony of uh

03:17:29.540 ms deans was that that was her speculation but she was never told that by anyone no one shared

03:17:34.820 that information she was concerned that she wasn't getting detail in the plan she was wondering why

03:17:38.660 there was a delay but no one shared that information that's what's in her statement

03:17:42.020 that's what her testimony was when she testified in fact her statements suggest that she's the

03:17:45.940 one that suggests okay well let's try and keep this can you just uh i i just want to be careful

03:17:53.700 because it's an important point and my friend keeps putting it to witnesses i'll be sending

03:17:58.260 a letter to my friend after this but i just want to close with this miss uh minister um you would

03:18:05.780 agree with me that it would be inappropriate for a federal government official to be

03:18:10.500 uh trying to influence the police services board on the selection of a

03:18:14.180 chief of police or to delay a decision of appointing of chief of police for municipal service

03:18:21.300 i can i can speak for myself sir i would not engage in in in that behavior if if my advice

03:18:28.340 was asked on on a matter i might provide the advice but but but as you characterize it i'm

03:18:33.300 trying to influence or interfere with that decision i don't believe that would be appropriate okay

03:18:36.980 thank you very much of course okay next is uh the windsor police service

03:18:46.820 hi good evening heather patterson here for the windsor police service uh good evening

03:18:51.300 minister blair can you hear me okay yes ma'am thank you in your testimony today you praise

03:18:58.100 the ottawa enforcement operation uh because and i'm going to paraphrase what you said you said

03:19:03.620 because it moved slowly it took care and it allowed for the least amount of force possible

03:19:10.260 i think you described it as a textbook operation yes then would sorry would you agree that it's a

03:19:16.820 hallmark of good police enforcement that that type of slow careful um least amount of force

03:19:23.540 possible type operation i i yes i would i would certainly characterize that police operation as

03:19:30.820 proportional measured charter compliance and appropriate great and you praise the ottawa

03:19:37.460 enforcement action even though you had to explain to colleagues the need for police to move slowly

03:19:42.100 and carefully in an enforcement operation i i i don't that's probably inappropriate to

03:19:48.660 characterize that i needed to explain to co to colleagues but i have some familiarity with

03:19:54.340 those operations and what i was witnessing here in ottawa or textbook and entirely appropriate

03:20:02.260 and i certainly shared that with colleagues okay so then let me put it to you this way would you

03:20:07.220 agree it's important to move slowly with an enforcement operation even when others feel

03:20:11.620 there's a sense of urgency and and and again i think the the response is it depends on on the

03:20:18.500 urgent nature if if someone was being injured for some for example i think under those circumstances

03:20:24.020 one might want to go a little quicker, and it'd be necessary.

03:20:27.720 But I think a methodical, measured, and proportional response,

03:20:32.360 every public order response is in part determined by the actions of the other side, the protesters.

03:20:39.480 And if their behavior is less aggressive, then that type of approach is entirely appropriate.

03:20:48.980 Okay. And would you agree that that equally applies to the situation in Windsor and the Ambassador Bridge?

03:20:54.020 oh yes um and would you agree that citizen and after officer safety is the forefront in any

03:21:01.220 public order operation i i believe certainly in in public safety and that includes officer safety

03:21:06.980 as a priority in every operation and you would agree with that despite the fact that you felt

03:21:12.100 there was a need for urgency of action in windsor i i was very concerned about about the blockade

03:21:17.620 of that of that roadway and and that there wasn't a need for urgency but but at the same time you

03:21:23.460 the operational decisions made by the police commanders on the ground,

03:21:26.860 knowing the challenges they face, the resources available to them

03:21:30.260 and their legal authorities, I respect the decisions that they make.

03:21:34.800 Okay, great.

03:21:36.280 Mr. Sololi's counsel briefly referred to the letter you received

03:21:41.120 from Chief Mizuno on February 9th requesting assistance from Windsor.

03:21:45.420 Yes.

03:21:46.720 Just for the record, I don't need to see it.

03:21:48.820 It's WPS 60788.

03:21:51.240 and you advised that you passed that along to others but didn't respond to it directly is that

03:21:57.340 correct to the best of my recollection it is not part of the process that i'm responsible for the

03:22:03.940 request for assistance to receive requests directly from a municipal police chief those

03:22:09.840 requests come through provincial and territorial ministers and it was referred to the best of my

03:22:15.320 knowledge to the appropriate minister in the ontario government did you know who that minister

03:22:20.140 was i believe it would be the solicitor general sylvia jones okay and if i but if i may be clear

03:22:27.100 that that was likely done through officials um i i don't want to suggest that it was done directly

03:22:32.460 to minister jones but it would have been done in likely in all likelihood from federal officials

03:22:37.420 to provincial officials to make sure that that information was properly shared okay great and

03:22:42.380 And Mr. Clerk, could you please pull up SSM CAN NSC 402671?

03:22:52.280 And while that's coming up, you're

03:22:53.880 going to see that after receiving the WPS request,

03:22:58.880 this seems to be a draft between Carolyn Williams and Rady Barak.

03:23:04.540 These are members of your staff, correct?

03:23:08.580 Yes.

03:23:11.280 and did you direct them to prepare a draft response to chief mizuno's letter

03:23:16.000 we we tried to respond to every bit of correspondence and just

03:23:19.600 and not leave it simply unanswered okay and if we go down towards the end of

03:23:24.240 page one

03:23:28.480 um we see that this is a draft but i've never been able to find

03:23:33.280 whether it was actually sent or not do you do you know no i'm afraid i don't

03:23:38.320 okay and if you look um in the last paragraph on that page it says local communities are the

03:23:46.000 ones ultimately paying the price for the actions of these demonstrators uh do you agree with that

03:23:51.520 sentiment i i think certainly the the local communities are we're in fact being significantly

03:23:57.920 impacted by these actions and by these blockades and demonstrations that were taking place

03:24:02.880 okay and would you agree it's vital that government ensure that police have resources

03:24:07.840 required to maintain public safety to bring and bring about a peaceful resolution to a public

03:24:13.520 order of it i believe people keeping people safe is the first responsibility of every order of

03:24:18.420 government and and to provide whatever resources are available to assist law enforcement in their

03:24:24.360 in affecting their purpose great thank you commissioner i just have three more questions

03:24:29.360 if i could have a brief indulgence as long as they're short yes they will be um and are you

03:24:35.840 aware the ambassador bridge is privately owned yes and you're aware that it's the windsor police

03:24:41.600 that will respond to incidents on the bridge such as a traffic accident i would have anticipated yes

03:24:48.560 okay and we looked uh earlier this afternoon at a february 12

03:24:52.320 uh text exchange that you had for the record ssm nsc can 3129 i don't need to see it unless

03:25:00.700 you do minister but this is where you said police are finally doing their job in windsor

03:25:06.020 yes um are you aware that the enforcement action took place over february 12th and 13th

03:25:13.580 yes and that the bridge was opened in the early hour mornings of february 14th yes i watched it

03:25:18.300 very carefully i was very concerned about the blockades at the at the ambassador bridge and so

03:25:22.900 you would agree that any difficulties the opp or the wps were having in windsor were resolved before

03:25:28.260 the emergency act was invoked i i was aware that they had been able to move that that protest i

03:25:35.840 was also aware of of concerns that they were expressing to us that that that those blockades

03:25:41.680 could either go to some other place or or could return to windsor and what we had heard very

03:25:46.800 clearly from the police is although they had been effective in clearing it there was real concern

03:25:51.520 as to whether they could hold it open okay thank you and lastly would you agree with me that the

03:25:56.120 windsor enforcement operation was a success yes there was no loss of life or serious injury to

03:26:01.560 either the public protesters or police yes ma'am thank you very much those are my questions

03:26:07.060 okay thank you next uh call on the city of windsor

03:26:16.800 Good evening, Minister. My name is Jennifer King. I am legal counsel to the City of Windsor.

03:26:24.600 Minister Blair, I would like to start by confirming your views about the unlawfulness of the blockade

03:26:29.520 in Windsor. Mr. Clerk, if you could please pull up PB NSC CAN 402437. While this is coming up,

03:26:38.620 can you confirm, Minister Blair, is it your opinion that the blockade in Windsor was

03:26:42.720 unlawful from the outset that is when the protesters blockaded the bridge access to the

03:26:49.520 bridge on february the 7th yeah yes i believe that that was unlawful i i believe there are

03:26:55.100 relevant statutes municipal although i don't have a deep knowledge of your municipal bylaws but

03:27:00.300 certainly within the ontario highway traffic act and even criminal code offenses that uh were

03:27:05.560 relevant to the situation okay so what we're i'm showing you is a transcript of a media availability

03:27:11.600 that you held on February the 9th at 1 p.m. with Ministers Mendicino and Alhambra.

03:27:18.000 Do you recall that media availability?

03:27:20.560 I did several of them that week and the next,

03:27:23.000 but I don't have a specific recollection of this unless you bring me to a specific point.

03:27:26.920 Okay, so this was one on February the 9th.

03:27:29.820 It's the first media availability that I've been able to find

03:27:32.660 or statements that you made about the blockade at the Ambassador Bridge.

03:27:36.500 My friends will let me know if there was an earlier one.

03:27:39.080 Have you seen this transcript that's on the screen?

03:27:42.180 If you could just scroll down a little bit, Mr. Clerk.

03:27:52.200 I've actually not seen this transcript, but if you could scroll down.

03:27:55.240 And by the way, I think I likely used the word thuggery, not thuddery.

03:27:59.080 Okay.

03:28:00.000 Well, Mr. Clerk, if you could please scroll to the bottom of page three.

03:28:03.120 and you'll see here I think at page three of the

03:28:09.920 PDF I apologize I might not have the right spot

03:28:18.240 you could scroll up please

03:28:24.080 all right so I don't seem to have the right spot but instead of wasting time and scrolling through

03:28:33.040 the transcript i'm just going to read to you some of the parts of your transcript so in the

03:28:37.880 transcript you state these blockades are unlawful um and i would urge all of those who are engaging

03:28:44.000 in this unlawful activity think about the people you are truly hurting and stop let me be very

03:28:49.100 clear the ambassador bridge is a vital artery to our country and it's a vital artery to our supply

03:28:54.180 chain it's central to the functioning of our economy and to serving all canadians do you recall

03:28:59.260 making those comments yes and later in your remarks you referred to the protesters unlawful

03:29:04.900 actions blocking ports of entry as essentially putting their foot on the throat of all canadians

03:29:10.120 do you recall that yes and in your remarks you also state that the rule of law has to be upheld

03:29:15.740 and canada will ensure police have the resources they need to uphold the law and keep the peace

03:29:20.660 right yes your opinions reflected in these remarks have not changed since february have they no sir

03:29:26.020 no ma'am i take it you made these statements to national media to make it clear to the public

03:29:30.500 and to the protesters that protested protesting by blockading ports of entry is unlawful

03:29:35.860 correct yes and that the protesters should stop yes are you aware that the same day as this media

03:29:41.940 availability that it was widely reported by american and canadian media that you and your

03:29:46.660 fellow ministers labeled the bridge blockade as illegal i didn't have the opportunity to read

03:29:51.940 the american press but i'm not surprised okay but the protesters did not stop did they

03:29:57.540 no okay um i have a few questions uh minister blair about um

03:30:06.580 planning around critical infrastructure so um will you agree with me that systems of support

03:30:13.060 should be in place to support the communities and local authorities who are most often the

03:30:17.620 first responders to emergencies i i would agree that local communities are often the very first

03:30:25.540 impacted i i would try to make the point though the blockaded ambassador bridge went well beyond

03:30:31.220 that intersection in windsor was affecting auto plants for example right across the province and

03:30:37.220 in in michigan that you know a lot of people were being deeply impacted but certainly i would

03:30:41.940 acknowledge how difficult that was in ottawa and in windsor minister blair are you aware that shortly

03:30:49.620 after the successful police operation windsor representatives including mayor dilkins started

03:30:54.500 asking all three levels of government to sit down and develop a long-term sustainable framework to

03:30:59.460 protect the critical border infrastructure i did not have a direct conversation with with mayor

03:31:04.340 dilkins but i believe my colleague did well minister uh are you aware that minister mayor

03:31:09.380 dilkins wrote to you directly on march the 17th if you share it with me i'll refresh my memory i

03:31:14.980 have no direct recollection of that letter from mayor dillkins although we've communicated quite

03:31:19.780 extensively over the course of the pandemic and other related matters okay well i i will ask the

03:31:24.660 clerk to bring this up this is win four zeros two two four zero so he sent you a letter on march the

03:31:30.900 17th and just to summarize it for you and you can see it but i don't have very much time minister

03:31:36.100 um he does ask for you and minister mendicino and former solicitor general jones to sit down

03:31:43.060 to debrief and work together to protect windsor's important international border crossings you don't

03:31:48.100 recall receiving this letter i have no direct recollection of it but but it it strikes me as

03:31:53.300 a reasonable request from the mayor okay and mr blair are you taking any steps as minister of

03:31:59.460 emergency management to ensure the inter-jurisdictional collaboration that's requested

03:32:04.980 by mayor delkins here and the planning occurs to protect border infrastructures and the communities

03:32:10.260 around them there's a great deal of work ongoing about creating a more resilient critical

03:32:14.580 infrastructure for this country from all hazards um including what we have seen um over the course

03:32:20.420 of last year and if i may i'm over my time um are you taking any steps as a minister of emergency

03:32:28.260 management to ensure that municipalities and border municipalities are included in these

03:32:32.340 conversations i can tell you in every community that i go to i try to go and visit the mayor i

03:32:37.700 believe very much in all three orders of government have a role here and and and i and i as i said

03:32:43.460 i've engaged with mayor tilkins numerous occasions and and many of the mayors particularly the border

03:32:48.260 mayors throughout the pandemic i'm on a very regular basis with all of the mayors of ontario

03:32:53.540 border communities they had some important things to say and and they needed to be heard thank you

03:32:58.660 very much okay thank you i'd like to now call on the province of alberta

03:33:07.700 good evening minister blair my name is stephanie bose i'm council for the province of alberta

03:33:14.100 i'd like to start with a document ssm.can 406055

03:33:28.660 And if Mr. Clerk, if you could scroll down to the last email on this page, or sorry,

03:33:38.240 in this document, it'll be on the next page.

03:33:42.580 And this is an email dated February 9th from Mr. Stratfest to you, subject line ABRFA.

03:33:51.540 And if you scroll down to the text, please, Mr. Clerk, you'll see the text on the letter

03:33:56.360 itself john broadhead and i spoke and i think we revised the response about exhausting provincial

03:34:01.640 resources and enforcing contracts and laws and we look forward to learning more on that front

03:34:07.720 so it's not a no just more context now i understand mr broadhead is the director of policy

03:34:14.040 in the pmo is that correct yes do you know what the reference to it's not a no is about

03:34:22.440 i i believe i do i was very concerned when i heard back from the deputy minister and the

03:34:28.360 canadian armed forces that they did not have the equipment that minister macgyver had requested in

03:34:33.000 his request for assistance and so i asked my my staff and public safety to explore other areas

03:34:39.720 of government to see if there was any way that we could provide assistance uh to um to alberta and

03:34:46.120 we looked for example in other in other federal departments we look outside the country in in

03:34:50.760 montana um we were looking for any way that we if the calf equipment was not appropriate or available

03:34:57.240 we were looking to see if there was any alternative that we could help out there with all right thank

03:35:01.800 you um at ssm.can.nsc 402689 this was a record that commission council put to you earlier today

03:35:18.200 um and i'll ask the clerk to please pull that up the version that you saw today was

03:35:23.560 redacted and i understand that that was only recently supplied and when we review this um

03:35:30.840 this is an email from again your chief of staff on february 11th if we scroll down

03:35:40.520 we see an email from rady barrack to you on february 11th

03:35:44.360 within the the next page we see a response further i understand that alberta has the

03:35:52.920 required legal authorities necessary to enforce compliance as a highway is considered essential

03:35:58.920 infrastructure and it goes on there are a number of contraventions or other applicable legislation

03:36:04.600 that may also be enforced by alberta and its police forces so at that point in time the reason

03:36:11.240 for rejecting alberta's rfa was in fact that the position of government of canada was that alberta

03:36:17.880 had the required legal authorities is that correct yeah if you could read down through

03:36:22.760 the entire letter because i i want to see how that this is dealt with

03:36:31.640 and and and i think it's also it's relevant that in the last paragraph where the letter

03:36:37.320 also refers to the lack of commercial resources the canadian armed forces being the only federal

03:36:41.640 asset and discussions that make clear that calf have neither the type of assets required nor the

03:36:46.120 expertise to do this without significant possible risk so it was an answer to minister macgyver's

03:36:52.680 specific request for tow trucks belonging to calf and and it was i think it was important context for

03:36:57.960 this letter as well but certainly also the position of canada was that alberta still had authorities

03:37:03.080 that it could exercise to deal with the blockade at coots correct there is some reference to to

03:37:07.640 that in this in this letter yes okay thank you if we scroll down to the last paragraph in the letter

03:37:19.800 there's reference there to the use of federal resources may be reconsidered at a future date

03:37:26.200 once all other provincial options and capabilities have been exhausted what was meant by that

03:37:33.080 Well, again, we were also examining across all of government.

03:37:38.000 We were also talking about the possibility of providing funding to assist them in acquiring through private and commercial means the vehicles that they required.

03:37:47.120 But, of course, contingent on all other provincial options and capabilities having been exhausted, correct?

03:37:52.920 Well, and again, not just exhausted or unlikely to succeed.

03:37:58.000 I think that's a reasonable consideration as well.

03:38:01.420 I think we were trying to communicate.

03:38:03.680 My concern, quite frankly, is I felt a necessity to reply to Minister MacGyver,

03:38:08.940 who had made a request to give him the information.

03:38:11.920 He very specifically asked for something, and we were saying no.

03:38:15.760 And I think as you saw in the email above this, I was concerned that we weren't able to say yes,

03:38:22.400 but I was also concerned that we needed to reply to his letter.

03:38:27.540 and that reference of course is to the at the very top when you approve this response is the

03:38:32.260 response to go to alberta yep and then i'll ask you mr clerk to please go up to the top

03:38:37.620 there's a reference to has the pmo approved and i take the pmo to be the prime minister's office

03:38:43.700 is that correct that's the usual uh that acronym represents the prime minister's office for sure

03:38:49.860 and was it a requirement that the prime minister's office approve a response to an rfa i'm i no not

03:38:56.500 not normally um but clearly there was communication between uh the offices about because there's also

03:39:02.660 an issue of inter-government affairs between ourselves and the provinces um i think there

03:39:07.300 was a complexity to this request because it involved a number of different ministries

03:39:11.860 and it was on it was an unusual outcome because we always try to find a way to say yes

03:39:17.700 do you know if the prime minister's office ever did approve a response to alberta's rfa i have

03:39:21.940 have no knowledge of that i'm not involved in those those communications all right there is

03:39:27.220 reference um in the the records um to your chief of staff um arranging a february 9th meeting with

03:39:35.300 the prime minister to discuss the rfa were you aware of those discussions no okay thank you um

03:39:43.140 i am over my time i would ask the indulgence of the commissioner for a couple more minutes

03:39:47.860 just to touch on two more things please okay go ahead but try and make it fast everyone's been over

03:39:54.820 with one exception as i recall all right um mr clerk could you please pull up document

03:40:00.340 ssm.nsc.can403164 and this is an email dated february 17th from you to your chief of staff

03:40:13.060 minister blair yes i'll have you scroll down a little bit to that to that second email it says

03:40:21.460 zeta this letter from alberta is incredibly helpful they are asking for federal assistance

03:40:26.580 they say have they've exhausted all existing authorities and resources they are practically

03:40:31.060 begging for us to help we should think about publishing this i'll take it this is reference

03:40:35.540 to the february 5th rfa that your office received from minister mckiver is that correct yes

03:40:43.060 All right. You wanted this letter to be published as support for Government of Canada's invocation of the Emergencies Act, correct?

03:40:50.060 My intention was that it would be published because we were putting documentary evidence before Parliament.

03:40:55.700 There was an ongoing parliamentary debate and there was a vote scheduled for the following week.

03:40:59.860 And my recommendation, because specifically Minister MacGyver had talked about the RCMP exhausting,

03:41:07.140 the language isn't in front of me, but I believe his letter said, all of their resources and options.

03:41:13.060 And I thought that was particularly relevant to the discussion around the invocation of the act.

03:41:19.800 But you were also aware prior to the invocation of the act of Alberta's success in purchasing tow equipment, correct?

03:41:26.760 I was aware that they purchased tow equipment.

03:41:28.780 And I also was aware that it had become somewhat moot

03:41:33.880 because after the investigation by the RCMP,

03:41:37.300 the seizure of weapons and the arrest

03:41:38.780 of a number of individuals,

03:41:40.680 the blockade that existed at Coutts,

03:41:45.080 most of those people skedaddled. 0.64

03:41:47.720 All right, thank you.

03:41:48.780 One last record to put before you,

03:41:50.520 that's pb.can401132.

03:41:55.420 And this is an appearance that you, a transcript of an appearance you had on Global News on

03:42:02.280 February 13th at 11 a.m. Eastern Time.

03:42:17.480 And if you scroll down, please, Mr. Clerk, to page two.

03:42:24.560 a question from mercedes stevenson you can see it now just at the bottom of your screen are you

03:42:29.840 prepared to invoke the emergencies act it's not on the bottom of my screen but sorry can you can

03:42:34.880 you scroll down there please mr clerk there it is there and your response is certainly i will tell

03:42:42.560 you the emergencies act has been under a very fulsome consideration right from the first day

03:42:47.760 as to what needs to be done when you refer to right from the first day what day are you talking about

03:42:52.800 actually my responsibility as the minister of emergency preparedness is to examine every

03:42:59.160 federal authority and and resource of that that can be brought to bear i i as i've earlier

03:43:06.840 testified um i we had i'd actually examined the use of this particular act during the pandemic

03:43:12.360 and determined that the threshold was not met um and throughout this this event i was aware of

03:43:18.660 this and many other legislative options available to us.

03:43:23.580 And so it was something that we were prepared to examine.

03:43:27.520 But as you can see in my answer, a more fulsome answer below that,

03:43:32.840 I was very clear that our work with the provinces was important.

03:43:39.460 And I talked about the Ontario steps that they had taken with their own emergency act.

03:43:45.040 And as I believe, we said, we will see if their effectiveness is sufficient

03:43:47.940 to bring the situation in Ontario under control.

03:43:52.260 And as I've said, I don't believe that we had at the time of this discussion

03:43:59.060 on the Sunday morning reached that decision.

03:44:02.400 And I was indicating that we were prepared to look at every option.

03:44:07.440 But you'll agree your answer was that it was under very fulsome consideration.

03:44:11.200 So it's not just a background option.

03:44:13.120 It's something that you're seriously considering, correct?

03:44:15.160 What I was attempting to convey is that every option was on the table

03:44:20.060 and we were prepared to examine every option

03:44:23.060 and then to do what was required to bring about a peaceful resolution of these blockades.

03:44:30.340 I understand that you did a...

03:44:31.820 Okay, I'm going to have to say it to you now more than double your time,

03:44:36.100 so one last question is all I'll allow.

03:44:40.520 All right, you will agree with me that by speaking on news programs

03:44:44.260 on february 13th you made the public aware that the federal government was considering the

03:44:48.580 emergencies act correct i i anticipated that the public was expecting their government to consider

03:44:55.620 every option to bring about a peaceful resolution to these protests because it was hugely impactful

03:45:01.380 not just to the people of ottawa and the communities impacted but to the entire country

03:45:05.220 all right thank you very much for answering my questions today minister blair thank you

03:45:08.340 very much okay the province of saskatchewan please good evening minister my name is mike

03:45:15.700 morris and i'm counsel for the government of saskatchewan sir will you agree with me that

03:45:22.980 after the cabinet meeting on february 13th the prime minister was left with full discretion as

03:45:29.380 to whether the emergencies act would be invoked the next day following his consultation with first

03:45:35.540 ministers just just to be clear sir because if i'm going to agree with you i want to be precise

03:45:42.180 um yes the the the matter had been discussed at cabinet it was led left what we call ad referendum

03:45:47.700 to the prime minister but it was very clear to everybody that the the prime minister's decision

03:45:54.100 wasn't was contingent upon the consultation that he would undertake the following day with first

03:45:59.380 ministers understood um my understanding is that cabinet did not meet again then though

03:46:07.460 you know until after the emergencies act was invoked is that fair yes sir okay so the prime

03:46:15.700 minister did not then take the consultations back to cabinet before invoking the act you'll agree

03:46:21.540 with me and and i believe sir that we we've had the cabinet meeting as you as you've indicated

03:46:26.820 the night before there was a cabinet discussion but the final decision was left to add referendum

03:46:32.980 to the prime minister following his consultations with the first ministers i understand your answer

03:46:39.860 minister blair i understand you are the president of the privy council correct yes i am on friday

03:46:47.220 we heard evidence from the deputy clerk of the privy council and i'd like to pull up the transcript

03:46:53.380 for some of the evidence given by the deputy clerk ms durain so registrar if we could pull

03:46:59.860 up the transcript it's trn six zeros two six

03:47:10.180 and spoiler alert we're going to be looking at page 300 of the transcript

03:47:14.820 where ms durain is giving evidence

03:47:17.300 uh it'll be 300 right not on the pdf but on the document itself

03:47:28.660 so can you go down just a little bit further remember is where i want to start

03:47:35.860 okay up just a bit okay this is ms duane's evidence from last week and she says remember

03:47:44.340 that we also discussed today that the moment we talk about the emergency act that can trigger

03:47:49.620 some reactions and that was the CSIS assessment on the risk of triggering or invoking the emergency

03:47:55.860 act so we were quite aware that the moment that we talk publicly about the emergency act

03:48:01.540 the timeline to take a decision is very short it can be a go or no go but you cannot wait

03:48:08.500 i'm just going to ask you to scroll down a little bit further now please

03:48:11.140 scroll down a little bit further thank you no no up okay next paragraph you cannot put that

03:48:20.740 in the domain without taking a decision and what we were afraid happened very rapidly the moment

03:48:27.140 we hang off the call on the fmm it was already out there that we were thinking about the emergency act

03:48:33.780 so this is why you know we were very concerned and concerned that talking about the emergency

03:48:39.780 act will request a very rapid decision a no or a yes but a rapid decision now you can probably

03:48:46.660 anticipate my next question uh minister but is it it is did you share ms drawing's concern

03:48:52.980 about publicly talking about the emergencies act i think if i read this correctly uh the deputy

03:49:01.380 clerk's concern is that after a very important step in any process of invocation involves

03:49:08.980 consultation with the First Ministers, and Deputy Joanne's concern appears to be that after that

03:49:16.420 call, some of that information was being made public, which I think, and I do understand the

03:49:22.340 concern, because it does, although it's not the final decision, it does, many might take an

03:49:29.700 inference that this was likely to happen. That, in my opinion, is different than suggesting we

03:49:35.140 were considering all options which was a conversation that we had i'd had a number of

03:49:39.460 times prior to that but if if the the deputy's uh concern quite frankly i have great respect

03:49:46.980 for the deputy and and if this was a concern she had um i i and and it it aligns somewhat

03:49:52.740 with ceases advice that the invocation of the act could result in a violent reaction from some

03:49:59.700 okay my friend for council for the government of alberta referred to your interview with mercedes

03:50:06.660 stevenson i understand you also gave an interview with rosemary barton on sunday morning february

03:50:12.180 13th is that correct minister yes sir and that was on rosemary barton live

03:50:19.140 i understand at that time you advised ms barton that the irg had been having daily discussions

03:50:25.460 about the potential invocation of the emergencies act is that fair i i'd actually have to see that

03:50:32.180 to to to understand the precise language i was trying to be and and it was always my

03:50:36.980 intent to be very precise that that we were considering all of our options including

03:50:42.180 the emergencies act but but but that no decision had yet been made you recall telling miss barton

03:50:48.980 that the police now have new authorities and very effective tools we just need the police to do their

03:50:54.580 job yes i do and i was referring to the new authorities as those that had come from the

03:51:00.020 province of ontario with the invocation of their emergencies measures and and as well the

03:51:06.420 regulations that they had brought in on the saturday and did you all you also recall stating

03:51:12.020 that it was somewhat inexplicable why enforcement was not happening i was asked if i could explain

03:51:19.620 uh the law enforcement's response and and i said it was somewhat inexplicable in my my meaning there

03:51:26.100 i hope was clear that i could neither explain nor account for law enforcement's response frankly

03:51:32.500 that's up to them okay did you think that uh your statements might suggest that a decision needed to

03:51:42.740 be made fairly promptly about invoking the emergencies act or not i don't believe that

03:51:47.860 that would have influenced either the prime minister or the first ministers in their deliberations

03:51:53.700 okay i understand that you were not present at the first minister's meeting held on february

03:51:59.540 14th is that correct yes sir that's correct now in your view would it have been appropriate

03:52:07.060 to advise what that meeting was going to be about before the start of the meeting you're asking me

03:52:12.740 to speculate on something frankly i have no knowledge of and i was not part of that meeting

03:52:17.940 if you were a premier would you would would you have preferred being advised in advance about

03:52:24.180 what a first minister's meeting is going to be about that's quite a hypothetical sir and and i've

03:52:28.820 never thought about being a premier you're uh well over time so with that answer you're going to have

03:52:34.740 to wrap up please last question thank you commissioner minister from your perspective

03:52:42.180 would there have been any risk to advising the premiers about what the first minister's meeting

03:52:48.820 was going to be about respectfully sir i don't believe i'm in a position to assess that risk

03:52:54.660 okay that's my last question so thank you for answering them

03:52:58.580 thank you next is the canadian constitution foundation

03:53:11.460 Mr. Blair, good evening. My name is Sujit Choudhury. I am counsel for the Canadian Constitution Foundation.

03:53:19.680 I have some questions for you about some remarks you made or evidence you provided in your witness statement regarding the sequencing of requests by the OPS to the OPP and the RCMP.

03:53:35.460 and so just for the sake of time I'd prefer not to call it up although I will if you'd like to

03:53:40.460 refresh your memory but do you recall you said that the city of Ottawa and the OPS were not

03:53:47.080 following the proper procedure for requesting resources because requests for police resources

03:53:53.160 in Ontario are formally governed by section 9 of the police services act and I believe that I

03:53:59.380 expanded upon that evidence in my examination in chief earlier today sir that I am familiar of

03:54:04.840 course with the number of circumstances where various police services may seek and obtain

03:54:09.260 assistance from others. I was also just simply pointing out to council that there is a provision

03:54:15.460 within the Police Services Act that allows for a police chief dealing with an emergency that

03:54:21.320 exceeds the capacity of his police service to manage. There is a section in the act that allows

03:54:25.960 him to request assistance from the OBG. And Minister Blair, would you agree that that provision,

03:54:32.580 although it authorizes a municipal police force or a chief of police to seek assistance from the

03:54:39.400 OPP, it doesn't require that they go first to the OPP before going to the RCN. No, and in fact,

03:54:45.720 they, well, again, depending on the circumstances, they often go to neighboring police services.

03:54:52.040 I can tell you from experience in the Toronto Police Service, we very frequently assisted

03:54:56.280 other municipalities because we had a fairly robust um and and well established public order

03:55:02.280 unit that we would we would assist those those other police officers and so you'll you'll recall

03:55:06.520 the tripartite calls that chief slowly participated on on february 7th and 8th yes sir and you had a

03:55:13.560 brief interaction with him and this was after the request for policing resources was sent

03:55:19.160 simultaneously by mayor watson and chair deans both to ontario and to the federal government

03:55:24.600 And this type of concern about sequencing, it wasn't ever relayed to him, was it?

03:55:30.880 I did not discuss the Ontario Police Services Act with the mayor.

03:55:35.540 My primary interaction was with the mayor. 0.66

03:55:38.340 And on the first apartheid meeting, she slowly joined that call right at the end, and we did not discuss.

03:55:44.720 And you'd agree there's nothing in the RCMP Act that says that the RCMP can't respond to a request from a municipal police service?

03:55:53.480 No, and in fact, they do. But there is actually the Ontario Police Services Act is silent to the RCMP. And the RCMP has some capacity to respond. But under normal circumstances, it's somewhat limited.

03:56:07.540 Sure. And this wasn't a normal circumstance, though, was it?

03:56:12.700 No, I think, as I said, it was uniquely challenging for the city of Ottawa and then in the multiple other jurisdictions that were being impacted by the blockades.

03:56:19.840 And so if I could conclude her, so you'd agree that even though in the normal course it might be appropriate and it might be standard practice for a municipal police service in this province to first go to the OPP or to other municipal police forces before going to the RCMP, perhaps in the case of the convoy and in the national capital region, it might have been entirely appropriate to set aside that normal practice and go directly to the RCMP in parallel.

03:56:48.460 I can tell you from a long experience that the RCMP are actually a very important and valued partner

03:56:54.340 in providing public safety services here in the National Capital Region,

03:56:58.880 and because they have a presence here, probably stronger than anywhere else in Ontario.

03:57:04.140 Thank you, sir.

03:57:04.980 Of course, sir.

03:57:09.180 Thank you.

03:57:09.940 Next is the DDF, JCCF, Democracy Fund.

03:57:19.420 Mr. Blair, I'm Rob Kittredge, counsel for the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms.

03:57:25.600 And we share standing at these hearings with the Democracy Fund and Citizens for Freedom.

03:57:32.200 You understand that in order to declare a public order emergency pursuant to the Emergencies Act,

03:57:37.320 there must be a threat to the security of Canada, as that term is defined in Section 2 of the CSIS Act, right?

03:57:43.880 Yes.

03:57:45.040 And I guess let's put that definition up on the screen, please, just for reference.

03:57:49.700 COM 935, Section 2.

03:57:53.940 Are you familiar with the Section 2 CSIS Act definition of a threat to the security of Canada?

03:57:58.700 Yes.

03:58:00.520 CSIS themselves advised Cabinet that the protests didn't pose a Section 2 CSIS Act threat.

03:58:05.680 you were aware of their assessment weren't you but but i think context is really important sir

03:58:10.920 the advice that i understood from cesis is that it did not meet the cesis threshold for them to

03:58:17.020 enable them to to initiate an investigation um and and and they were very clear about that but

03:58:23.780 but for the purposes of the emergencies act that that definition i believe has a broader application

03:58:31.820 that is contained within that definition.

03:58:35.280 And it really, the violence and the threat of violence,

03:58:38.800 I believe very clearly the threat of violence.

03:58:41.400 I also believe that, excuse me, the threat of violence existed.

03:58:45.280 And I also believe that the thresholds for, in that definition,

03:58:51.580 is different for the Emergencies Act than it was in the very narrow application

03:58:58.780 of that definition to enable the CISIS to undertake an investigation.

03:59:04.940 I was previously the minister responsible for CISIS.

03:59:08.220 I'm not unfamiliar with the extensive jurisprudence

03:59:11.840 and very high standards that exist for CISIS to take that action.

03:59:15.960 In the interest of just trying to, I'm hoping to understand your thinking a little bit better,

03:59:20.860 and in the interest of trying to do that in five minutes,

03:59:23.520 If you can help us get through this in, you know, shorter answers wherever possible, that would be really appreciated.

03:59:32.500 Looking at this definition here, you haven't raised any concerns about espionage, sabotage, foreign interference,

03:59:39.540 or a credible threat to overthrow the Government of Canada associated with the protests, have you?

03:59:45.280 And again, there was some concern, not the activities of a foreign state actor,

03:59:50.880 but that there was some concern about foreign-influenced activities detrimental to the

03:59:56.660 interests of Canada. And as well, just to be very clear, I believe there was more than ample

04:00:02.280 evidence in support that the threat or the use of acts of serious violence, and that or is rather

04:00:08.560 important. I think very many people felt threatened. Okay, fair enough. You outlined

04:00:13.860 several concerns to Commission Council earlier. Disruptions to supply chains, impacts on the flow

04:00:19.200 of goods and services disruptions to transportation disruptions at the border etc these things may be

04:00:25.900 undesirable and they may have an impact on canadians but they aren't in and of themselves

04:00:30.000 serious violence are they no but i think i think there is an underlying threat of serious violence

04:00:34.920 just if i if i may very quickly give you an example in our conversations with with the police

04:00:40.400 both the rcmp in alberta and the ottawa police service here in ottawa they were very concerned

04:00:46.660 and CISA's actually reaffirmed this concern that any enforcement on their part could result in a

04:00:54.420 violent and provoke a very violent response I think as well in all the people that we dealt

04:00:58.980 with in Windsor and in Ottawa certainly the disruption of critical infrastructure was a

04:01:04.420 very serious issue of national it's a very serious issue but it's not serious violence in and of

04:01:10.480 itself I mean you spent a lot of time earlier on today speaking to commission council about your

04:01:15.300 concerns about the protests and you outline concerns like the impact of uh the disruption

04:01:21.000 to supply chains on canadians and and you spent quite a bit of time on that if i'm you didn't

04:01:26.280 spend much time identifying any and i'm pleased to have the opportunity to do so now sir did you

04:01:32.320 i believe that many canadians um experience threats of violence intimidation and fear as a

04:01:38.960 result of the activities taking place intimidation and fear aren't in and of themselves let him

04:01:43.300 finish the answer, then you can. I mean, in the interest of getting me through this in five

04:01:47.420 minutes and giving me a chance to answer. Yeah, but if you don't let him answer, then there's no

04:01:51.140 point asking the question. It's true. Intimidation and fear in and of themselves, though, aren't

04:01:58.420 serious violence. I mean, the experience of intimidation and fear, serious violence means

04:02:03.460 something, doesn't it? Well, threats of violence, I think very many people felt very threatened

04:02:09.660 by what was taking place.

04:02:11.420 Quite frankly, intimidation and a very real apprehension of risk and danger

04:02:20.500 as a result of these activities.

04:02:22.560 I think we heard from very many Canadians who were very sincerely fearful

04:02:26.520 about these things, and we heard from the police who told us that

04:02:30.760 just in the normal, even writing municipal bylaw tickets

04:02:34.580 could precipitate a violent response.

04:02:36.760 And so the police were very fearful of a violent reaction.

04:02:40.400 But writing municipal bylaw tickets didn't incite a violent response, did it?

04:02:46.100 Well, again, we were talking about a threat of violence, not just merely the act.

04:02:50.300 You know, I think it's...

04:02:51.340 Right. So, can I just...

04:02:52.760 If something blows up, that's crystal clear.

04:02:55.500 But acts of threats, intimidation, obstruction, all of those things can also be quite violent.

04:03:02.280 So...

04:03:02.600 Is there experience by Canadians?

04:03:03.800 There's there's been a lot said here in the last couple of minutes, and I'm probably I'm very close to with not over my time here.

04:03:09.880 But I guess I'd like to ask you, you're making a lot of noise about intimidation and threats of violence.

04:03:18.760 But can you point me to any particular specific threat of violence or event that was violent?

04:03:24.260 Well, sir, you've characterized my response as noise, but I was trying to answer your question.

04:03:28.020 Well, I appreciate that. But I'm just trying to cut through this and get an answer out of you.

04:03:31.940 I can tell you we heard from very many Canadians who were very fearful about the activities of these blockades and protests.

04:03:40.320 You know, they were afraid to walk down their street.

04:03:41.920 They were intimidated and fearful of all those reactions.

04:03:46.100 Some of the, you know, the symbols and other things that were on display were very threatening to very many Canadians.

04:03:53.540 And frankly, the threat of violence is every bit as impactful on a community and on individuals.

04:04:01.160 and therefore it became it was a very serious matter from my perspective all right um the

04:04:05.600 definition of in section two of the cesus act of a threat to the security of canada doesn't capture

04:04:11.960 everything that you and your capacity as a minister of emergency preparedness would consider

04:04:16.340 to be a threat to the security of canada does it i'm not sure what you mean i i think i think this

04:04:23.480 definition is is fairly comprehensive and includes the type of behaviors that i've referred to but

04:04:28.860 But you would say that in your occupation as Minister of Emergency Preparedness, this sets the limit of what you would consider to be a threat to the security of Canada, Section 2 of the CSIS Act?

04:04:41.600 I think this defines what, in my opinion, would be a public order threat to the security of Canada.

04:04:48.920 There can be other types of threats that were not necessarily evident here.

04:04:55.500 A cyber attack, for example, that's targeted at critical infrastructure that shuts off a pipeline or a power grid or a water treatment plant, those can also manifest themselves as threats.

04:05:06.360 There is a significant threat there that doesn't necessarily involve physical violence in the first instance.

04:05:14.460 Okay. And just a final question. It's your belief that this definition here in Section 2 of the CSIS Act applies differently to CSIS than it does in the context of the Emergencies Act, right?

04:05:25.700 I'm aware of the way in which this definition applies to CSIS's authority, as determined by the courts, to initiate an investigation.

04:05:35.380 But I also believe that in its reference in the Emergencies Act, that this needs to be looked at in a broader context than simply whether or not CSIS could go get a wiretap, for example.

04:05:47.680 And there is, I think, very useful guidance here.

04:05:51.060 So the Emergencies Act uses a different definition of a threat to the security of Canada.

04:05:56.840 No, I think this definition, as provided within the Act, in my opinion, is appropriate and does, in fact, identify the events and circumstances that we have described as a concern within the Act as, in fact, a threat to the security of Canada.

04:06:16.400 All right. Well, thank you very much. Those are my questions.

04:06:18.540 Thank you.

04:06:18.760 Okay, next is the CCLA, please.

04:06:38.740 Good evening, Minister Blair.

04:06:40.680 My name is Cara Zwiebel.

04:06:41.740 I am counsel for the Canadian Civil Liberties Association.

04:06:44.780 I just have a few minutes with you,

04:06:46.300 And I just want to ask you about those few days, I guess, between February 10th and the 14th.

04:06:53.000 So I think this is when we switch from the SSE meetings to the IRG meetings.

04:07:01.120 Is that right?

04:07:01.980 Okay.

04:07:02.960 And is it fair to say, I mean, I think probably starting at the end of January, but certainly

04:07:08.560 by this time that the federal government was feeling significant pressure from many quarters

04:07:14.160 to do something about what was happening across the country?

04:07:18.140 Respectfully, I would characterize that the government was feeling significant concern.

04:07:22.180 We were concerned about the impact these protests were having

04:07:24.780 on the people of Ottawa and the other communities impacted

04:07:27.520 on critical infrastructure and in very many aspects of the country.

04:07:31.780 Okay. And, I mean, this was a crisis not just at the borders,

04:07:35.480 but also at the seat of Parliament.

04:07:39.200 We had people in the nation's capital.

04:07:42.400 If I may, Parliament continued to function throughout this, notwithstanding it was a challenge and noisy.

04:07:47.280 I think the impacts, from my perspective, were far more significant on the people living in Ottawa, trying to do business in Ottawa, and as well in Windsor.

04:07:56.760 And, you know, I'm also very mindful of the impact that these events were having on people's ability to make a living, to go about their business.

04:08:04.440 It was very impactful on a lot of people in a lot of different places.

04:08:07.000 um and and around this time the so that the 10th um i believe it's the 11th when ontario uh uses its

04:08:17.800 it's invokes its uh emergency under the emergency management and civil protection act um now

04:08:26.520 so that's the 11th and i think we we learned that the 12th is when the the orders under that

04:08:31.400 act were actually published so the the actual sort of operative provisions that gave police

04:08:36.200 the authorities under that act uh came into existence on the 12th that's my recollection yes

04:08:41.960 okay um now then we have the the 13th where there's an irg meeting was there any um consideration

04:08:51.560 i guess by by you i'm not asking you to to disclose the deliberations of cabinet but any

04:08:56.520 consideration around giving uh the ontario orders some time to work i i can tell you i had asked my

04:09:05.320 my staff for for a full list of the ontario measures that were enacted the day before

04:09:10.280 um i also looked at their utility and whether they would address the concerns that had been

04:09:15.160 raised to us um about and and i'll just give you some quick examples if i may um one of the things

04:09:21.080 that we had heard from a number of jurisdictions is the difficulty in compelling uh tow trucks to

04:09:26.760 come to provide assistance i looked at the ontario regulations and although it allowed for those tow

04:09:32.040 trucks it didn't compel and and and we were a little bit concerned about its limitations there

04:09:36.360 was also nothing in there as i recall that dealt with some of the real challenges we had in in

04:09:41.480 in tracing the financial uh elements of this in the in the crowdfunding who was who was donating

04:09:47.400 that money where it was going and and so we believe that there was a need to address that

04:09:54.600 how we eventually got there there was still considerable deliberations going on but but again

04:09:59.720 the limitations of of the federal statute and they also did not have the ability to designate

04:10:04.920 certain spaces um where and which was a concern as well because you know we were concerned they

04:10:10.120 were concentrating for example on wellington um i was very concerned about their ability to go

04:10:14.440 back to a municipal intersection just off the ambassador bridge um and and so we looked at

04:10:19.720 whether or not the ontario regulations provided us with adequate assurance that those matters

04:10:26.040 could be dealt with and although they were very welcome i want to be very clear that i i was very

04:10:31.400 appreciative of the work that ontario had done and the and the measures that they brought forward

04:10:36.040 in my opinion after an examination of them they didn't address all of the deficiencies

04:10:41.320 and the lack of tools that we had identified okay um now would you say that at this point um

04:10:49.400 you and perhaps some of your colleagues in the federal government are feeling

04:10:55.920 embarrassed about what's happening in Canada, feeling that there's international attention

04:11:01.740 and it looks like Canada's struggling to deal with this situation.

04:11:05.300 Respectfully, I've never indulged myself in feelings of embarrassment. I've got a job to do.

04:11:10.000 We have a responsibility to protect Canadians, to protect critical infrastructure in this country

04:11:15.020 and to respond appropriately to unlawful activity.

04:11:19.240 I personally, and I believe all of my colleagues,

04:11:21.820 were deeply motivated by our responsibility to Canadians

04:11:24.960 to do what was required to restore the rule of law and peace.

04:11:30.020 Can we turn up ssm.nsc.can402999?

04:11:39.080 And this is another text message between you and your chief of staff.

04:11:45.020 um now i don't think we have dates on most of these

04:11:53.100 yes i recall this okay and i think this is you on the uh on this side of the screen i'm wondering

04:12:00.220 if anyone else is embarrassed that the protest on wellington is expanding dozens of new porta

04:12:05.580 potties and a new stage i'm embarrassed for my former profession and worried for my government

04:12:10.860 which is being made to look very weak and ineffective.

04:12:14.240 I can't believe that I'm hoping that Doug Ford will save us.

04:12:16.760 And again, my remarks obviously are intemperate, and I regret that,

04:12:21.040 but let me be very clear.

04:12:23.120 I was very concerned by a number of things.

04:12:25.520 First of all, there was an expansion in some of the protest activity

04:12:28.540 that was taking place in Ottawa.

04:12:30.140 I was hearing very clearly how concerned the people of Ottawa were

04:12:33.740 about not just the activity that was taking place,

04:12:37.840 but that it appeared to become even more entrenched.

04:12:39.820 there was also a lot of public discourse and and particularly in ottawa but in other places as well

04:12:46.240 about people losing confidence in the police and trusting confidence in the police is absolutely

04:12:51.320 essential for them to do their job and so i was very concerned about the impact that the apparent

04:12:56.500 ineffectiveness of the police to deal with this was causing in the public's confidence in their

04:13:01.700 competence and their ability to to resolve this and and finally one of the things that we were

04:13:06.440 also hearing a lot of people were very confused about who is responsible for policing in the city

04:13:11.600 of Ottawa and and you know for most people they don't differentiate between the responsibilities

04:13:16.700 of different orders of government and what I was also hearing is that many people assumed that the

04:13:22.220 federal government was responsible for this and and my comment is was was that I knew it was

04:13:27.540 primarily the provincial responsibility the province's responsibility under their police

04:13:31.800 services act to to take certain steps and and i was hoping that they would take those steps and

04:13:37.900 by the way subsequently on i believe december 11th they did in fact pass their own emergencies act

04:13:43.060 and and introduce regulations on the 12th okay and i i know i'm out of time can i just have one

04:13:48.420 more moment to wrap up thank you commissioner um so the the irg on the 13th um and then there's a

04:13:55.980 cabinet meeting the night of the 13th as well and then the following morning is when there's the

04:14:01.340 first minister's meeting and then the act is invoked. But we know that the morning of or

04:14:09.280 overnight leading into the 14th, the blockade at Coutts was dealt with and arrests were made

04:14:16.900 and the Ambassador Bridge, I believe, had also been cleared. Is there anything that could have

04:14:24.500 happened between the 13th and the 14th that, in your view, would have caused the government or

04:14:30.540 should have caused the government to pause and say perhaps we don't need to take this nuclear

04:14:36.540 option that we're about to take well thank you for the question i want to be very clear

04:14:40.680 we approach and certainly my approach to this but i believe an approach shared by my colleagues and

04:14:45.880 the prime minister we approached the invocation of the emergency act with with great caution

04:14:50.920 with with with real reluctance we we saw it as a last resort and and we were prepared to do what

04:14:57.660 was required, but only if required, and only for as long as was required. And so throughout all of

04:15:04.320 our deliberations, there was that concern. You asked what circumstances might have enabled us

04:15:10.120 to say we're done, if we'd been able to receive some assurances. The blockade at Coutts had gone

04:15:16.700 on for almost, I think, 13 days. Its resolution was not as a result of the towing away of those

04:15:26.280 trucks with people deciding to leave. It was a direct result of an RCMP investigation in which

04:15:31.100 several people were arrested, charged with very serious criminal offenses and the seizure of

04:15:35.020 quite a number of weapons. And then they moved very quickly. We still had significant blockades

04:15:40.620 at Emerson. We were seeing them in the Pacific Highway. Although the Ambassador Bridge had been

04:15:47.300 reopened, there was lots of intelligence suggesting that they would return. The police were telling us

04:15:53.460 they had the ability to clear it, but not the ability to hold it.

04:15:57.400 And we were hearing of an intention to go to the Point Edwards Bridge at Sarnia,

04:16:03.020 to go to the Priest Bridge, to go to other bridges,

04:16:05.620 all of which would have had a similar effect of significantly impacting Canadians and Canadian interests.

04:16:13.680 And so we were still dealing with a set of circumstances where,

04:16:17.280 although, yes, some very positive things had happened at Goetz and at Windsor,

04:16:21.700 the threat that existed had not yet abated and and and and we were still

04:16:26.940 dealing with with that thank you very much those are my questions okay next

04:16:32.500 the Criminal Lawyers Association

04:16:40.940 Minister my name is Greg Del Piccio I'm one of the lawyers representing the

04:16:45.680 Criminal Lawyers Association and the Canadian Council of Criminal Defense

04:16:48.800 lawyers you have testified that in your view reliance upon the emergencies act was a matter

04:16:56.960 of last resort and i'm going to pick up on that theme okay when commission council asked you

04:17:03.920 questions what now probably feels like some time ago he asked you questions about why there was

04:17:12.800 about mistrust between as i understood it police agencies he used the phrase ships passing in the

04:17:19.760 night he in a question suggests there was confusion and disagreement about what who goes where and

04:17:27.360 does what your answer to that was in reference to governance but my question is as you look back

04:17:37.840 today to what extent do you believe that better communications more effective communications

04:17:47.360 between police agencies and within police agencies

04:17:52.240 might have avoided the need for resort upon the emergencies act

04:18:00.240 and and first of all let me agree vigorously that good communications within police services and

04:18:06.400 between police services is very important in them doing the important job that we tasked them with

04:18:11.440 in our society to keep the public safe um what we were also dealing with however in government

04:18:17.440 was the reality that that communication perhaps had not been as effective and as a result of

04:18:23.520 you know and and again it's not my job here to assess um responsibility but the reality was

04:18:30.320 this had persisted for a very long time in in many respects it had gotten more difficult and

04:18:35.200 dangerous and we were concerned that it had to be resolved and and so you know i i i'm in

04:18:41.600 complete agreement that good communications within police services and between police services and

04:18:46.160 i would also add between those governance bodies responsible for policing and the public i think

04:18:52.480 those those communication is really critically important and on all aspects of this but in the

04:18:58.640 event that that had not been as effective as perhaps we would have preferred or wanted it to

04:19:04.160 be. We were dealing with a situation that was uniquely challenging and required, unfortunately,

04:19:10.600 in my opinion, an extraordinary response. You looked at the Emergencies Act because

04:19:16.320 circumstances pushed it onto your plate and you had to deal with it. Well, my responsibility is

04:19:25.300 to look at all federal authorities in existing legislation. And because of, frankly, my background,

04:19:31.160 I also look at municipal bylaws in their application and Ontario statutes such as the Highway Traffic Act, which can also be applicable and useful in these circumstances.

04:19:43.580 And so one of my responsibilities is to look at every legal authority.

04:19:47.620 I've already mentioned, for example, at Windsor, we looked at the International Bridges and Tunnels Act to see if there was any application that that would assist us with.

04:19:55.840 and what we found in the unique and challenging circumstances that police and communities were confronted with

04:20:02.960 as a result of these blockades, there were, I think, a need for additional tools

04:20:09.420 and authorities to enable them to affect the important lawful purpose of restoring the peace.

04:20:14.700 And finally, Minister, when you testify about your belief that the Emergencies Act is a matter of last resort,

04:20:22.600 that's not just a personal preference you're expressing that's your belief with respect to

04:20:26.960 what the law requires right yes i believe that is a requirement that and and and as well the law

04:20:32.980 also requires that it be charter compliant that it be time limited um and and and that and you

04:20:38.740 know it also provides a number of parliamentary processes and an inquiry um all of those are very

04:20:43.900 high standards that the law puts in place and and in my opinion appropriately high standards

04:20:48.540 thank you those are my questions thank you uh call on the government of canada please

04:20:59.020 uh commissioner yes before he begins uh my colleagues at the government of canada

04:21:06.380 have moments ago provided some unredacted records finally based on our motions

04:21:11.660 one of those records is relevant and material to this witness extraordinarily and if my friend

04:21:21.200 I'd be asking to deviate on that basis because they were just provided moments ago to be able

04:21:28.840 to ask this witness for five more minutes so I may question them about this new document

04:21:34.140 I can advise it's February 12th minutes readout from a ministerial meeting about this very issue, and it's very enlightening.

04:21:45.560 Does it involve this witness?

04:21:49.680 It does.

04:21:51.320 What's your position on that?

04:21:53.960 I'm trying to sort that out right now, as I'm not aware of what my friend is speaking up in terms of the specific document.

04:21:59.700 um i see that there's been a uh a response sent from the government of canada with respect to

04:22:08.560 one of my friend's motions with an attachment to it and um frankly um commissioner i don't

04:22:14.680 think i'm informed enough nor are those at the council table at the moment to respond to what

04:22:18.160 my friend has if we took two minutes we may be able to get there yeah maybe we'll take uh five

04:22:22.300 minutes uh a five minute break and probably the witness can appreciate it uh it's been a long

04:22:29.140 afternoon or evening so we'll take five minutes and then uh maybe you can start it out and

04:22:36.740 we can come back because obviously it's better to have uh the questioning before your uh finals

04:22:43.620 question and you can also deal with commission council i don't know if they can help but

04:22:48.980 i'm sure they're willing to help if possible okay thank you we'll take five minutes and you can

04:22:55.940 commission council come and get me if it's the commission is in recess for five minutes

04:23:25.940 .

04:23:55.940 .

04:24:25.940 .

04:24:55.940 .

04:25:25.940 .

04:25:55.940 .

04:26:25.940 .

04:26:55.940 .

04:27:25.940 .

04:27:55.940 .

04:28:25.940 .

04:28:55.940 .

04:29:25.940 Order a lot. The Commission has reconvened, the Commissar Apprent.

04:29:32.940 Okay, has it been sorted out?

04:29:39.940 Commissioner, I've had a chance to speak to my friend with respect to the lifting of a redaction in document nssm.can.nsc00002872,

04:29:49.940 and I've undertaken to my friend that I'm happy to ask the witness, I'm not sure if it's technically feasible to put it on the screen,

04:29:54.940 but to ask the witness the question whether he was advised of the

04:29:58.900 information that has now been unreducted in a document that's previously been

04:30:02.760 seen as a ministerial update readout. Okay and is that acceptable? No I advise my

04:30:10.000 friend it wasn't. I would like to ask five minutes worth of questions that's

04:30:14.680 it sir that's all I would ask. Okay well I think I'm going to exercise my

04:30:22.420 discretion and and let the convoy ask a few questions um and and the reason is uh it this

04:30:33.220 has been a very difficult uh inquiry given the time constraints the government has had

04:30:40.580 uh a lot of pressure to produce documents and we're very appreciative of their continuing efforts

04:30:47.140 and similarly with redactions redactions have been done quickly and in some cases we appreciate the

04:30:57.020 government reviews those redactions and can then provide more clarity when after they review them

04:31:06.360 and all of this is I think to the government's credit having said that it it does in some cases

04:31:14.320 result in the parties having missed opportunities and i would feel much better allowing the convoy

04:31:23.920 to do the five minutes if they hadn't well exceeded their time but in the circumstances

04:31:29.760 i'm still prepared to to give them some time and and it's no no negative reflection on the

04:31:35.680 government and ron your ability to question i'm not questioning that you would do it fairly

04:31:41.360 uh it's simply uh in recognition of the circumstances we're operating under and

04:31:48.440 i think an accommodation is appropriate so i accept that you're okay so we'll give them

04:31:54.580 but but it is please uh be respectful of what the ruling is

04:32:03.600 so hopefully this is already in relativity uh it is document uh ssm.can.nsc.0000287220

04:32:25.920 i think is that you have it great thank you so minister this is the 1pm ministerial update

04:32:34.800 readout and you can scroll up and see it's a readout of what happened at your ministerial

04:32:40.480 meeting on february 12 2022 all right and if we can scroll down to the second page please

04:32:49.600 where it says ottawa thank you so i just need to know if you were made aware of this

04:32:56.880 essentially right there it says plan it's this is for the third from the bottom

04:33:01.960 plan presented yesterday was slowly for approval opp rcmp have approved will further present to

04:33:11.200 minister meeting with sally at two you're aware of that you're aware that was what was advised

04:33:18.160 on uh february 12th i i was president at that meeting and and although i don't have a specific

04:33:25.260 memory of every point that's listed here i i believe this was part of the discussion right

04:33:30.660 and you can agree with me that the plan presented uh was the one uh from the deputy minister of

04:33:36.940 public safety mr stewart and and i don't have any information on on on like whether the deputy

04:33:43.740 minister was i have no recollection of what you've just said okay and so i'm unable to agree with

04:33:48.680 you right and are you aware and is already in evidence um that on february 12th at 5 p.m

04:33:54.960 deputy di tomaso deputy minister di tomaso uh texted with chief slully and he too approved

04:34:03.100 the plan i have no knowledge of that well if that's the case and all of the police in the

04:34:09.160 jurisdiction of ottawa approved the plan why'd you invoke the emergencies act the the um the

04:34:18.140 invocation of the emergencies act was not contingent upon an approved plan it was it was

04:34:23.700 contingent upon what was necessary to bring about a peaceful resolution but isn't the rcmp the opp

04:34:30.100 and the ops approving a plan that isn't the emergencies act

04:34:35.160 isn't that what law enforcement advised you to do and again i wasn't getting advice from law

04:34:43.760 enforcement we were getting information from law enforcement i don't have any insight at all into

04:34:49.220 whatever plan may have been devised by them i had every expectation that they were working together

04:34:54.380 and would develop a plan but i don't know its particulars and and and frankly our decision

04:34:59.660 was based on the threat assessment,

04:35:03.260 the determination of the circumstances

04:35:04.820 that existed across the country.

04:35:07.260 And yes, I think it's a positive development

04:35:10.040 that the police are working together in a plan,

04:35:12.440 but the execution of that plan had not yet been realized

04:35:15.460 and the threat had not yet been.

04:35:17.260 Last question.

04:35:18.880 The plan, all right, the engagement plan or proposal,

04:35:23.960 in all of the cabinet minute meetings

04:35:27.220 where it was discussed,

04:35:28.280 it's attached to the minutes as a document that was discussed so i take it can you agree

04:35:35.400 that the engagement proposal you had that document right i don't know that's what they're referring

04:35:42.920 to in in the in the document you put in front of me today right okay thank you

04:35:50.280 okay now i'm calling on the government of canada again

04:35:58.280 thank you um uh it's brendan vinnie and heist uh for the government of canada

04:36:11.800 um just on the last point looking at that word plan and the bullet point my friend was taking

04:36:18.680 you to are you certain sitting here today which plan that referred to no sir i i make an assumption

04:36:25.220 that it was the police operational plan but i've never been given the details of their planning

04:36:30.420 i've never asked for it and and did not require it okay so is it looking at what's noted there is it

04:36:36.740 equally possible sitting here today as far as you know that that's the engagement plan as

04:36:40.900 opposed to enforcement plan and and i i don't know and wouldn't i don't think it's probably

04:36:45.620 to try to venture a guess i i you know it's clear that there was discussion that they were

04:36:50.820 had come to an agreement with respect to a plan but i don't know its particulars

04:36:55.220 all right i'd like to um come back now to the broader issues here and ask you some questions

04:37:01.860 about the environment that you were assessing in as one of a number of members of cabinet

04:37:08.740 this morning commission council asked or this afternoon commission council had asked you a

04:37:12.660 number of questions about your perspective on the policing of public protest

04:37:18.020 which included um a couple of well-known protest events that occurred when you were the chief of

04:37:22.900 police at the toronto police service do you recall that i'm taking you through the 2009 tamil protest

04:37:29.060 for example yes sir and um another well-known uh uh protest event in toronto when you were the chief

04:37:38.580 was the g20 held in june of 2010 right yes sir i think um you and i are both quite familiar with

04:37:45.220 that event as well as the later process of accountability for some of the orders that

04:37:49.860 were given by the bronze level incident commander on this Sunday June 27th? Yes sir. And as I recall

04:37:58.420 the evidence in that example you ultimately intervened and ordered that an end be brought

04:38:04.180 to certain of those operations when they came to your attention? That's correct sir. I would

04:38:09.540 like you to ask you to focus for a moment on the events in Toronto on Saturday June the 26th and

04:38:14.740 thinking about the scenario before us here in this inquiry do you recall what happened on june

04:38:22.740 the 26th of 2010 in toronto on the saturday sir yes sir yes sir there was a a very difficult

04:38:29.620 situation what had been a relatively peaceful protest although involving a very significant

04:38:35.620 number of protesters and there had been some incidents leading up to that but on saturday

04:38:40.820 unfortunately um the a very significant portion of the protest began to to riot um tumultuously

04:38:50.100 is i think the appropriate term um there was they were marching down towards the summit site they

04:38:55.680 turned and began um running rapidly north um up young street smashing windows as they went there

04:39:03.020 was a number of of police cars that were set on fire and a number of my officers were injured as

04:39:07.860 Yes, and one of your officers was quite seriously injured as a result of the police car being attacked by protesters, is that right?

04:39:16.060 He was injured and rescued from the vehicle, which was subsequently set on fire.

04:39:19.780 Now, leading up to that event, sir, were you aware that there was a not insignificant amount of advanced information and intelligence available with respect to certain actors, most famously associated with the black bloc actors that were shared with the Toronto Police Service?

04:39:41.160 Yes, sir. I recall that vividly.

04:39:42.420 And those individuals and groups were assessed as intending to cause violence to property and potentially persons during the course of the G20 protests, yes?

04:39:53.360 Yes, sir. That was the intelligence we'd received.

04:39:56.520 And in fact, am I correct that some of these identifiable groups or individuals warranted or were found to warrant the issuance and execution of search warrants in advance of the protests?

04:40:08.220 Yes, sir. That's correct.

04:40:08.940 but the events you described on saturday june the 26th they involved individuals who were

04:40:18.600 not on your radar specifically didn't they that's correct sir um the groups that smashed

04:40:25.140 stores and laid waste to a long section of young street in downtown toronto do you know whether

04:40:31.040 all of them were a part of the target group assessed um uh or as subjects of interest ahead

04:40:37.900 of the summit i i believe many of them were not previously identified as subject of of interest

04:40:42.940 i also we also i also believe sir that a number of people frankly get caught up in the moment

04:40:48.780 and it's part of the mob mentality sometimes when people begin to riot that others who may not have

04:40:55.040 come with that intention join in and it becomes very challenging for for the police to restore

04:41:00.660 with the same do you have the same perspective with respect to what occurred on queen street

04:41:05.520 west where at least two of the burning police cars i understand uh occurred yes sir i i i recall

04:41:12.880 watching that actually on on video from police headquarters and and and again there was an element

04:41:18.720 of of of that that protest on queen west um which was directly related to a number of identified

04:41:28.480 um anarchist groups including the black bloc but there were also very many other people that had

04:41:33.840 not previously been identifying who joined in looking um putting yourself in the back to the

04:41:41.520 situation in the streets of toronto on june the 26th you know sitting there in the middle of that

04:41:46.960 afternoon um would you have had any reason to think that um obtaining more uh surveillance

04:41:54.000 or monitoring authorities wiretap authorities would have been useful as a response to what was

04:42:01.040 going on in the streets amongst that mass of people that it's very difficult to say if i may

04:42:08.160 um i would also remind you sir that at that time i was the chief of police in toronto but there was

04:42:13.520 an integrated command um team that was put in place the the leadership of of that response

04:42:19.760 planned well in advance and agreed to by all parties was was led by the rcmp there was also

04:42:25.120 integrated intelligence gathering units related to that certainly you know we had a fair bit of

04:42:32.620 intelligence available to us but it was clearly not entirely complete I think in hindsight we

04:42:38.820 could always have hopefully have done more. Would that have been a useful public order response

04:42:44.420 on June the 26th of 2010 when those events were occurring in plain sight on broadcast and social

04:42:53.120 media in real time yes and unfortunately law enforcement did not have the capacity to monitor

04:42:59.120 all social media and neither do we now by the way or neither do they now um have that that capacity

04:43:05.760 but again the extent to which more information is available you know better intelligence um can

04:43:13.360 enable a more effective response now coming back to february the 14th or 13th the the the period

04:43:21.200 in question leading up to the infocation of the Emergencies Act. Did you have a view about whether

04:43:27.020 there was an atmosphere of lawlessness in the city of Ottawa? Yes, sir. And not, I think, to be very

04:43:33.760 clear, not just simply characterized by, you know, some of the activities which were bouncy castles

04:43:41.540 and hot tubs, but there was a number of activities that were, which were concerning, as I viewed them

04:43:50.740 And, for example, there was a very real concern being expressed by citizens about people bringing jerrycans full of gasoline into the demonstration site.

04:43:59.860 It is rather unusual.

04:44:01.540 I will tell you for, you know, flammable liquids, potentially explosive liquids being brought into a demonstration site, it can create a manifestly dangerous situation.

04:44:13.040 And so the police had said that we're not going to allow it.

04:44:15.960 But what we then witnessed is all sorts of people were coming into the site, carrying jerry cans, some of which had water, some of which may have had fluid, but it had the effect of thwarting the ability of the police to affect the purpose that they had stated that was their intention to keep those gas cans out of the area.

04:44:32.740 and and we saw you know there was a clear anticipation of of police tactics there was

04:44:37.780 i think a very thoughtful effort to thwart those tactics and and render them ineffective um which

04:44:43.720 to me is also characterized you know a commitment to continue and persist with the unlawful activity

04:44:49.060 um so when you you draw on that example when you assess the environment of of of lawlessness or

04:44:57.540 relative lawlessness in that scenario. Is your assessment based only on information received

04:45:03.700 from public officials, intelligence agencies, and police channels, or does it include what you can

04:45:09.420 see with your own eyes? Yeah, I was obviously being briefed by our officials, but I was in

04:45:15.980 the City of Ottawa at the time. I reside in the downtown area. I was in that area and saw some

04:45:23.700 of this behavior firsthand. Where an environment of lawlessness persists for a protracted period,

04:45:32.940 does that, in your view, affect the likelihood that there will be acts of serious violence

04:45:36.980 against persons or property in a given city? I think it can. We also recognize that in areas

04:45:43.420 where there is significant disorder, and that can manifest itself in many ways, but certainly during

04:45:48.220 this process protest i think we could characterize a lot of the behavior as as significant disorder

04:45:53.860 in the downtown core it it has the effect first of all it has the effect on everyone else in the

04:46:00.660 neighborhood law-abiding citizens they stop using public space they stop shopping on their main

04:46:05.240 streets you know they stay in their houses lock their doors put bars in the windows and and they're

04:46:10.120 fearful of going outside and engaging with each other and where that lawlessness becomes really

04:46:17.820 entrenched in my experience that can actually create a very unsafe situation and and even

04:46:23.580 behaviors that people might otherwise not be inclined to engage in in in more serious criminal

04:46:29.260 behaviors i think when you create a situation of significant disorder they're more likely to occur

04:46:35.900 we heard from commissioner karik in this proceeding about his fears that his officers were being

04:46:40.460 stretched between the extreme ends of this province that is to say windsor and ottawa

04:46:45.020 so that it would become impossible or extremely difficult at any rate

04:46:49.420 to have an effective public order response occur in both places at once.

04:46:54.760 And my question for you, sir, is did you, looking from the federal perspective,

04:46:59.220 did you have a similar concern about the stretching,

04:47:02.560 potential stretching of resources amongst the RCMP?

04:47:04.720 I was witnessing very clearly the challenges that the OPP was having,

04:47:08.420 not just for their activities in Windsor and Ottawa,

04:47:10.840 but also having to cover off the Peace Bridge,

04:47:14.000 assisting the Niagara Regional Police,

04:47:15.660 the Sarnia Police over at Point Edwards.

04:47:18.280 There was also other activities on other highways,

04:47:21.240 402, for example,

04:47:22.700 all of which had the effect of really pulling and stretching

04:47:25.960 the capacity to respond of the OPP

04:47:28.860 and their policing partners in Ontario.

04:47:31.220 We also saw, for example, as a result of the Coots blockade,

04:47:34.520 there was an Article 9 request from the province of Alberta

04:47:38.400 to move additional RCMP officers into Alberta

04:47:41.640 to assist with managing that particular event.

04:47:45.280 They were drawn primarily from British Columbia.

04:47:47.560 But then we saw almost immediately

04:47:49.000 there was protest and blockade activity

04:47:51.360 taking place at the Pacific Highway.

04:47:53.000 So the place from which those resources had been drawn

04:47:55.100 was then being challenged.

04:47:57.140 And it appeared to be an effort

04:47:59.620 to stretch even thinner limited police resources.

04:48:02.920 And I think one of the things we heard very clearly

04:48:05.520 from the commissioner

04:48:06.700 is that he had to make some very difficult choices about what he could do first

04:48:11.100 and what he would then have to do subsequently

04:48:12.980 because he just didn't have unlimited resources to bring to bear.

04:48:17.800 If there are inadequate numbers of police officers available

04:48:21.920 to maintain law and order in a given location,

04:48:26.000 do you consider that that might affect the likelihood

04:48:29.000 that there will be acts of serious violence that occur in that location

04:48:33.100 against persons of property?

04:48:34.180 I think it's very important to have enough resources to affect the lawful purpose.

04:48:39.520 And again, I leave that decision to the operational commanders on the ground.

04:48:44.240 But in my experience, having insufficient people to deal with a substantial protest,

04:48:49.960 and I've been involved in protests where we were in our dozens up against thousands,

04:48:54.220 and it becomes extremely difficult to bring that situation to a peaceful conclusion.

04:48:58.820 I'd like to ask you about the risk of counter-protest.

04:49:01.420 Do you see that as a relevant risk in a protest situation where a risk of counter-protest develops in terms of...

04:49:10.320 It can be. And I want to be very clear that I know that there was a high level of frustration in Windsor and in Ottawa and in other places with the blockades that were taking place.

04:49:19.400 And I did not see evidence of a violent response.

04:49:23.020 But when there has been counter demonstrations, the police are also very challenged to sort of stand between the two protesting groups to maintain the peace between them.

04:49:32.080 And that can be a very challenging environment.

04:49:34.540 And it's because people who become quite upset and emotional and feel that they're being treated unfairly may.

04:49:42.560 And I say may very carefully because we did not see evidence of this in Ottawa, certainly.

04:49:46.520 But they can become quite agitated and upset.

04:49:49.360 And that could lead to confrontation.

04:49:53.020 Did it affect your sense whether there was a risk of serious violence against persons or property when you learned about the seizure of a large quantity of guns, ammunition and body armor from Coutts on February 14?

04:50:05.340 Yeah, actually, I had been advised earlier in the week, I believe around the 10th by the RCMP commissioner speaking at an IRG that I had convened, that there was concern about the presence of firearms at Coutts.

04:50:21.420 that immediately alerted, like for me, was a very significant potential escalation of violence and

04:50:27.880 risk at that site. You know, it's where the police advised that they had that information

04:50:35.180 and that they were dealing with it. And when the investigation was complete, I believe on the

04:50:39.680 morning of, or on the 13th going over into the 14th, and they began making arrests, the weapons

04:50:46.060 that were seized, the charges that were laid were deeply concerning. And I won't, and I can't

04:50:51.040 comment on any aspect of that matter now before the courts but i can tell you it was deeply

04:50:55.860 concerning that and that's not to suggest i want to be very clear that's not to suggest

04:51:00.560 that i came to believe that everyone involved in these protests was potentially armed but it was

04:51:06.400 deeply concerning that embedded within that protest in alberta was a number of people who

04:51:12.060 did appear to be armed and that there clearly was some evidence that they intended to cause harm

04:51:16.740 Did it have any effect on your view of the likelihood or the risk level that there would be acts of serious violence against persons or property in Ontario when you learned on February 13th of the theft of a trailer of 2,000 guns near Peterborough, Ontario?

04:51:35.600 Yeah, that was concerning. And we were getting information from the police. I'm aware as well that subsequently it was determined that that was not related to the protest activities. But in the moment of their theft and not knowing where they were, it was concerning that there was that many guns out there in unknown hands.

04:51:55.000 thank you I'd like to ask you about a subject some of the lawyers in this

04:52:00.100 inquiry have repeatedly asked witnesses about and that is whether or not you

04:52:05.020 believe in the rule of law I spent my whole life upholding the rule of law

04:52:10.180 sir so yes I do does the rule of law include the sense that citizens will

04:52:15.940 generally acknowledge and abide by the law of their own volition I think

04:52:22.300 overwhelmingly in in our country um the vast majority of canadians embrace the rule of law

04:52:28.160 it's frankly part of our social contract that that we all agree that these are the laws and

04:52:33.800 that we will all obey them what happens to the capacity of police to do their jobs if the vast

04:52:41.240 majority of people do not voluntarily abide by the law i i can advise it it can be very difficult

04:52:49.660 If a large number of people choose not to obey the law, the capacity of the police, and frankly I don't think it's necessary or appropriate for the police to charge everybody, it would overwhelm our criminal justice system. You couldn't bring all those people before the court. I think the law works best when it's done with the consent of the people, and we all agree to abide by those rules in how we treat each other and how we live together.

04:53:15.420 Do you see that if large numbers of Canadians repeatedly and for extended periods refuse or fail to abide by laws, by court orders, and so forth, do you think this has any effect on the willingness of other Canadians to follow the law themselves?

04:53:33.340 I remain optimistic, and I would hope that the vast majority of Canadians would understand the importance of the rule of law.

04:53:43.040 And it's foundational to our society.

04:53:47.380 And, you know, we live in a, we talk about peace, order, good government, and Canada is one of the safest large cities, or excuse me, large countries in the world.

04:53:57.000 And so I think that one of the reasons that it is such a livable country is because we all agree that the rule of law is important and should prevail.

04:54:08.440 But let's say that they didn't. Let's say that large numbers of Canadians for a long period of time declined to obey the law, to abide by court orders, and so forth.

04:54:18.780 Do you think that there would be a greater likelihood that others would take the law into their own hands, so to speak?

04:54:24.220 I think when people lose confidence in the rule of law, when they lose confidence in their police services to uphold and maintain the rule of law, when they lose confidence in the criminal justice system to provide justice for everyone, like when that confidence is lost, then I think it's far more likely that people will ignore the law and would engage in criminal behavior.

04:54:44.420 and in that situation do you see that it has any effect on the likelihood that there will be

04:54:50.180 serious acts of violence committed by someone or other against persons or property i think as we

04:54:57.500 saw the persistence of clearly unlawful and disorderly behaviors around these these convoys

04:55:03.900 i think i think the situation in my opinion was escalating towards a greater likelihood

04:55:10.120 of the violent outcome all right um i want to ask but one more area which is with respect to

04:55:18.060 and mr cameron had asked about some uh this to some extent earlier i think you'd referenced it

04:55:23.720 as well in your in later testimony but it's with respect to the implementation or execution of the

04:55:30.440 ultimate public order operation that occurred in ottawa specifically after the invocation of the

04:55:36.380 Emergencies Act. I wonder if we could call up pb.can.401805 underscore rel01 and it will be at

04:55:46.880 one minute thirty five seconds. And while this is coming up Minister, in this inquiry there have

04:55:55.240 been some evidence or suggestion that the enforcement operation in the City of Ottawa on February 18th

04:56:04.020 following was excessively was conducted in an excessively brutal fashion one witness i believe

04:56:10.900 suggested that they couldn't believe that something like this was happening in canada

04:56:16.020 did you observe the public order operation at any time yes sir i did if we could when we get to the

04:56:23.060 135 mark i'm going to show you what appears to be drone footage taken by the rcmp to record the

04:56:31.940 execution of the public order operation on the 19th and i'll just let you observe that for a

04:56:36.180 moment and then ask your comment on the execution and whether it is up to snuff

04:56:49.940 and i'll note as we go that it appears that um in a certain point the footage

04:56:53.780 will be sped up and that'll be indicated on the screen

04:57:01.940 Thank you.

04:57:31.940 is this what that appears to be sir is a film of the um that public order operation yes sir

04:57:40.060 if you can stop the video there um would you um tell us your views on whether that represents a

04:57:51.100 well executed public order operation i've been involved in many sir and that that again i described

04:57:56.520 this or that type of behavior is textbook. I believe that the officers were responding in a

04:58:03.540 very proportional and measured way. One of the things that happens in any public order event,

04:58:08.940 if you line the police officers up, there will be some people that will come and push against them.

04:58:13.020 And, you know, clearly the police were, had adequate resources and a clear plan and were

04:58:18.240 moving people out. I was particularly impressed as I watched that, that the protesters were given

04:58:24.540 paths of egress so that they could leave. And that's really important when you're trying to

04:58:30.180 clear a street, that you give people a reasonable point of exit from that street. The other thing

04:58:36.860 that I would observe is the presence of those vehicles. I think even as I watched this, the

04:58:42.580 police were dealing with a unique challenge because those vehicles, in many cases, still

04:58:46.820 present in that event. But I thought the way in which they managed the movement of those people

04:58:52.060 was entirely proportionate and I looked very carefully I personally did not see anything that

04:58:59.780 I would characterize as excessive force there is a minimal amount of force that is necessary to

04:59:04.540 affect that purpose and that's what I believe I witnessed are you aware of whether the public

04:59:09.580 order operation that occurred in Ottawa resulted in any deaths or serious bodily injuries to

04:59:15.040 members of the public or to members of the police I'm not aware of that I've seen absolutely no

04:59:20.120 evidence or indication of that thank you so those are my questions okay any re-examination

04:59:30.680 thank you commissioner with your leave i have just one area that i'd like to explore

04:59:36.120 the witness go ahead shouldn't take more than a few minutes um minister blair at a

04:59:43.400 point earlier in in the evening when you were being asked some questions by council for alberta

04:59:48.440 you discussed the possibility you discussed the fact that you were facing a vote in the house and

04:59:55.260 you thought a letter from Alberta might be useful in some support in that cause and I'd like to

05:00:03.340 ask you about in general the efforts that you made to to gain support for either that vote or just

05:00:10.760 generally public opinion in terms of the invocation of the act and so if I could ask the clerk to call

05:00:16.480 up this document, OPP 40s 4583. And when you get it to go to page 54,

05:00:29.280 I think that's it, PDF 54 should have.

05:00:54.680 Yes there we are, thank you.

05:00:56.680 is this isn't an exchange that you're involved in Minister Blair but you're

05:01:02.120 mentioned in it Commissioner Creek is in green on the right of the screen and

05:01:13.080 Commissioner Lockie is is in blue on the left of the screen and she says this the

05:01:22.800 text text begins with something that appears just a continuation of an

05:01:28.020 earlier conversation and then she says has Minister Blair hit you up for a

05:01:32.240 letter to support the EA question mark and I guess the first question is did

05:01:40.440 you hit up Commissioner Karik for a letter to support the EA and we're using

05:01:45.400 that colloquially and and we wouldn't be suggesting there was necessarily

05:01:51.000 anything wrong in you having contacted can i say sir i personally believe that would have been

05:01:56.060 wrong i've known i know tom creek we're friends um i would not have called commissioner creek or

05:02:02.320 any other uh police chief to seek their support for essentially a political um move as i did have

05:02:11.300 conversations there are a number of organizations police uh chief organizations who are advocacy

05:02:17.580 organizations the canadian association of chiefs of police uh justice and and the ontario association

05:02:22.940 of chiefs of police i'm quite familiar with those organizations i was previously the president of

05:02:26.860 both those organizations are are advocates for policing and public safety and and and yes there

05:02:35.820 there was we did receive support from the oacp and the cacp but i did not i'm not i have no idea what

05:02:43.980 what Commissioner Luckey was referring to there,

05:02:47.060 but I would have considered it entirely inappropriate

05:02:49.440 to call Commissioner Karik.

05:02:51.000 I didn't call the chief of my old service.

05:02:54.120 I did reach out to the associations

05:02:57.160 through the executive directors, not chiefs of police,

05:03:00.800 to allow those associations to comment,

05:03:04.360 and they said whatever they said.

05:03:06.260 I also had communication with the president

05:03:09.580 of the Canadian Police Association,

05:03:12.020 which represents all the unions, police unions in Canada,

05:03:16.220 and all three organizations, the CPA, the OACP, and the CACP,

05:03:21.100 all sent very strong letters of support for the Emergencies Act

05:03:25.360 and the measures that were provided.

05:03:28.560 Well, as in some other instances, you've followed right to the end of my line of questions,

05:03:33.820 and so thank you, Commissioner.

05:03:35.160 That completes the questions on that topic.

05:03:38.320 Okay, thank you.

05:03:39.400 If I can just ask a few short questions, and some of them it's for a little clarification.

05:03:48.760 And I know it's been a long afternoon, evening.

05:03:53.680 I just want to confirm the point you made about the Police Services Act and requesting the OPP assist.

05:04:03.900 the difference there is as i understood it and i just want to be sure i have the right note is the

05:04:09.640 opp is required to assist as opposed to other police services including the rcmp would likely

05:04:19.240 support or help but but the difference is requirement am i right about that my understanding

05:04:25.220 of the act sir is that the opp is if if a chief believes an emergency exceeds their capacity and

05:04:30.860 ask the opp for help that the opp commissioner is required they can they can also ask another

05:04:36.780 municipal police service or first nations police service who do have in the legislation as i

05:04:41.340 understand it um and this legislation has been amended a few times so i stand to be corrected

05:04:45.740 but i believe this is still correct those municipal police services could decline

05:04:50.300 and interestingly enough the ontario police services act is completely silent to the rcmp

05:04:54.620 and and that i mean is that because policing is a provincial responsibility yes sir i believe

05:05:03.040 that's true and and and certainly the police of jurisdiction in seven of our provinces for

05:05:07.860 example are the rcmp serving under contract to the provincial authority but in in ontario the

05:05:13.720 rcmp have a very important policing role in ontario and in quebec they they provide federal

05:05:18.920 policing services they do tier one investigations they do money laundering they they head up the

05:05:24.100 integrated national security and enforcement teams.

05:05:27.180 Those are very important RCMP responsibilities,

05:05:30.560 but they also quite routinely will come

05:05:33.180 and help other police services

05:05:34.700 with the deployment of their uniformed officers.

05:05:37.420 Another question, and this is about the relationship

05:05:42.780 between the Solicitor General and the OPP

05:05:48.820 or you, not you, but in your former role

05:05:53.240 over the RCMP or even police services boards and I guess to use a concrete example is it

05:06:05.240 appropriate in your view or could it be that the board or the Solicitor General give

05:06:14.280 indicate its priority and to use a specific would it be improper for the Solicitor General

05:06:19.640 of ontario to have said there are big problems in ottawa and in windsor our view is windsor is more

05:06:28.520 important it's of course up to you but uh as far as the province is concerned our priority is

05:06:36.760 windsor but it's your decision and sir i believe that is an operational decision the decision you

05:06:42.120 just described in the deployment of their people i believe that's the responsibility of the

05:06:46.280 commissioner in this case um and and and would be inappropriate to receive direction direction and

05:06:52.120 and i if i may i'll just give you a quick example when i was the public safety minister

05:06:56.120 um i only issued it one direction to the commissioner of the rcmp and it was a ministerial

05:07:00.760 directive in writing which i made public and it was to require that they respond to a tip

05:07:07.240 requests in a timely way and that was it and and and i was very careful not to sort of wade into

05:07:13.400 this issue of operations so just just to pursue that so in this case even though it was just uh

05:07:21.720 what the province would like but it's up to him that you think would be would still constitute

05:07:27.240 interference i i think ultimately in my opinion the decision as to where he can safely deploy his

05:07:35.320 people and do his job is an operational decision that i would i personally would have deferred to

05:07:41.400 the commissioner okay uh and then there was a question you answered about whether you were

05:07:49.240 aware that commissioner lucky had had said that there were still police tools available that had

05:07:56.280 not been fully uh utilized i was not made aware i've subsequently heard to this inquiry um that

05:08:05.960 that information was available but i was not aware of it on at that cabinet meeting now leaving

05:08:11.240 Taking aside Commissioner Luckey's comments, were you aware that the police had tools available to it that they had not utilized?

05:08:21.880 I believe that, I always believe, quite frankly, that the police have to utilize all of the tools that are available to them.

05:08:29.660 And where they have an existing authority, then that authority is the one that should stand.

05:08:33.780 But I had also come to believe, sir, that there were a number of circumstances and challenges that the police were facing.

05:08:41.240 where they did not have the appropriate tools to deal with it they had not asked specifically and

05:08:46.200 had not certainly asked me specifically for those tools but they had indicated you know the

05:08:51.080 insufficiency of their existing authorities and and and and tools and and had indicated that

05:08:59.000 that i believe was necessary for us to to remedy and address okay the uh

05:09:05.800 you you made a mention and i'm not sure i've got the correct note when you were talking about the

05:09:17.800 the deficiencies or the tools that were added by the emergencies act you talked about

05:09:23.800 the financial and the fin track and you you mentioned the tow trucks i'm just trying to

05:09:29.240 You did mention designated spaces, and I'm just trying to understand, because we've had a fair amount of evidence here, let's just say I'm not quite clear for sake of argument, on whether the common law powers to create exclusive zones, exclusion zones, was adequate to deal with the Ottawa situation,

05:09:54.240 situation or whether it required the uh the the act the uh in uh emergencies act yes sir and and

05:10:04.880 and i i've actually given some consideration to that i was a little bit concerned with the

05:10:09.520 agreement that the city had attempted to enter into it it frankly kind of quickly fell apart

05:10:14.960 because they had suggested that you know the trucks would park on wellington and so john a

05:10:19.520 and in and not out of the residential area i understand their motivation but i was concerned

05:10:24.160 it had the effect of potentially giving permission for those trucks to remain on wellington and sir

05:10:28.560 john a which i think could have been problematic i i was also very mindful of the challenge that

05:10:34.800 windsor had experienced because this had taken place in a municipal intersection and and our

05:10:40.400 ability to designate that space because of its i think significant impact and vulnerability for

05:10:47.040 for critical infrastructure,

05:10:48.600 that we needed to go beyond simply the tools

05:10:52.160 of a municipal bylaw

05:10:53.680 and potentially take a more proactive stance

05:10:56.960 with respect to that.

05:10:58.080 I am, of course, familiar with the common law authorities.

05:11:02.540 One of the challenges of common law authorities

05:11:04.940 is they're not always clearly understood or articulated

05:11:07.880 and they're always subject to challenge.

05:11:11.200 And I think some particularity

05:11:12.960 with respect to defining those spaces

05:11:15.300 could prove useful to the police to affect their purpose.

05:11:19.340 And when you did the G20,

05:11:21.060 were there problems with the creation of exclusion zones?

05:11:25.560 There was indeed, sir.

05:11:26.940 And it needs to be very carefully defined

05:11:31.080 and very carefully communicated.

05:11:33.880 Okay, well, thank you very much for,

05:11:37.180 if nothing else, for your endurance.

05:11:40.180 And thank you for coming.

05:11:41.680 And that ends the examination and your testimony.

05:11:47.640 So thank you and have a good evening.

05:11:49.280 We're going to adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9.30.

05:11:54.920 And we'll have, I think, two new witnesses tomorrow.

05:12:02.240 The commission is adjourned.

05:12:11.680 .

05:12:41.680 You

Juno News - November 22, 2022

Emergencies Act Inquiry – Bill Blair testifies

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