00:09:31.700So just wondering if you could respond to that.
00:09:33.700We haven't actually had a public spat. I've known Peter for many years.
00:09:38.700And no, I, I, he is an enormously disputatious man, and I have a lot of admiration for him.
00:09:45.700And I simply remarked in a column in the Spectator in passing that I admired Peter for coming out so completely against the government's policy,
00:09:54.700but said, I don't know if Peter is right or wrong, which is correct. I don't.
00:10:00.700Incidentally, I don't think he knows or can know whether he's right or not.
00:10:04.700I particularly don't know whether Peter's right or wrong because I've never known him to write about this subject before,
00:10:09.700or to have thought about it or considered it at any length or any depth.
00:10:13.700And one of the things that has guided my own writing and thinking over the years is to try very hard not to speak or think out loud about things you haven't thought about very much.
00:10:27.700And, you know, I think that the importance of dissent dissident society is exceptionally important.
00:10:36.700And the fact in my column was I admired Peter for being one figure, a disputatious figure who takes to the battle.
00:10:45.700Peter doesn't turn out, turns out he doesn't really take compliments well.
00:10:51.700And was furious that I didn't simply agree with him, but I don't because I can't.
00:10:57.700And I, it's, it's, it's possible that all of our governments have been wrong and Peter is right.
00:11:44.700So there's still so much uncertainty around this virus.
00:11:47.700One thing that's becoming a little more clear, Douglas, and you, you wrote about this in the UK sign this morning,
00:11:53.700was about the, the role that China has played, you know, either in, in sort of hiding early information about the virus to allow it to become a global problem.
00:12:04.700Or perhaps even the fact that it may have leaked from a virology lab in the same city of Wuhan.
00:12:09.700So what do you think the long term, what do you think the short term and the long term ramifications will be for China and its relationship with the West?
00:12:18.700Yeah. I mean, this is obviously the thing that is, if we have, if we have managed to duck the worst case scenario in the pandemic,
00:12:27.700obviously now we face what could in the long run seem to be an even worse scenario, which is our economic immiseration.
00:12:36.700I would say that first of all, yes, the piece I wrote this morning about this was that firstly, we need to know as soon as possible exactly what has happened.
00:12:48.700And in when you're in the middle of the mortem, it's probably not worth doing the post mortem,
00:12:55.700but we ought to do the post mortem as soon as possible on this.
00:13:00.700I think that the President, President Trump's remarks on Friday or Thursday night,
00:13:05.700where he raised the question of whether the lab in Wuhan actually being where the virus had come from.
00:13:12.700And this, by the way, had been speculated about.
00:13:14.700I'd spoken to officials in America about this quite early on in the crisis.
00:13:20.700This was something that all experts are speculating on early on.
00:13:26.700It seems strange that it had come from the area where this particular laboratory is.
00:13:33.700And it seems perfectly plausible that the Chinese authorities took the, as it were,
00:13:39.700international embarrassment of the wet market story as being the acceptable story compared to it actually coming out of a laboratory in their country.
00:13:54.700And then, by the way, there's a question of how deliberate or otherwise it was.
00:13:56.700And that's the bit that's obviously going to be hardest to work out, but in many ways will be most important.
00:14:01.700Whatever the origin of the virus, one thing we do know very clearly now is the beginnings of the knowledge of the extent to which the Chinese authorities are responsible,
00:14:17.700not just for this emerging, which is a bit of the question, as I said, is open.
00:14:22.700But the almost point at this stage, which is that they covered up what was happening.
00:14:32.700They lied, they prevaricated, they did much more that meant that they turned a local problem into a global nightmare.
00:14:42.700And this, of course, as we all know, I mean, this is the common behaviour in totalitarian societies.
00:14:49.700Anyone who's watched the amazing Netflix series on the nuclear meltdown in Soviet Russia at Chernobyl will know this.
00:15:02.700Totalitarian societies act in certain ways when disasters occur.
00:15:07.700And this particular disaster of the virus, the Chinese Communist Party has acted in exactly the normal way,
00:15:14.700which is to think that its own survival, own PR image, own self-image is what's most important to protect,
00:15:22.700rather than trying to do everything to be open and honest and let the world know what's coming to them.
00:15:28.700And I think that there is absolutely everything has to be on the table in terms of exacting a price that the Chinese Communist Party has to pay.
00:15:41.700It cannot simply have burnt down the world economy and then, you know, offer us a watering can afterwards,
00:15:48.700which is frankly the site of like Huawei embossed boxes of masks being handed to Dutch officials.
00:16:04.700It's a geopolitical problem for us because too many of our countries have been too reliant on China for too long.
00:16:11.700Too many of our officials have been able to enrich themselves by their relationships with Chinese companies and others.
00:16:18.700So I think that a real reckoning has to occur after this.
00:16:26.700Well, one of the examples that was in that article you had was a German newspaper demanding reparations from China.
00:16:34.700And the Chinese reaction was sort of to turn things around and say that the German paper was promoting discrimination and bigotry against Chinese people.
00:16:45.700I think that's such an important distinction.
00:16:48.700In Canada, there was there's a newspaper called the Epoch Times.
00:16:51.700It's run by Chinese dissidents from the Falun Gong community.
00:16:55.700And they put out sort of a full page spread blaming the Chinese Communist Party for the pandemic.
00:17:03.700And they mailed it out. Free copies were mailed out to Canadians across the country.
00:17:07.700Well, the CBC, the state broadcaster in Canada, wrote up sort of a hit piece, an article,
00:17:13.700calling, get this, calling the Epoch Times racist and saying that they were pushing disinformation.
00:17:21.700But the paper itself is run by Chinese dissidents.
00:18:06.700And the the behavior of the Chinese Communist Party in response is utterly typical.
00:18:12.700And the thing that so many idiots in our societies don't get is that their stupidity is exactly what totalitarian governments like that are after.
00:18:24.700You know, if if the Chinese Communist Party can can say that built the German paper you refer to,
00:18:32.700which did this very impressive spread the other day and the demand for reparations, global reparations.
00:18:38.700If the Chinese Communist Party attacks built for racism, it isn't because it thinks that built is being racist.
00:18:50.700It's because it knows that that allegation matters in our societies.
00:18:57.700It matters in Germany like it matters in Britain and it matters in Canada.
00:19:03.700The idea that the Chinese Communist Party cares a damn about discrimination anywhere in the world, let alone in Germany, is a fantastical idea.
00:19:17.700So so that the thing in this is is always, you know, I say that that we've got to work out when we are being played and when we are being used.
00:19:26.700And anyone who calls for this stuff is being played, they're being used, they're the dolt.
00:19:35.700And I think you could certainly say that the CBC is is guilty of that in many ways.
00:19:40.700I just want to pick up on this idea of sort of weaponizing accusations of racism, because it's not just authoritarian regimes that do it.
00:19:47.700Douglas, you you I think your book, The Strange Death of Europe really touched on some topics that, you know, if you if you if you try to zero in on criticizing sort of maybe cultural issues that might come from, you know, people immigrating from Syria, say that they bring with them, whether it be, you know, the treatment towards women, treatment towards Jews, treatment towards gays.
00:20:11.700The the the the reaction and sort of the the impulse is to say, well, if you're criticizing these things about this person, it's really because you must hate Syrians or you must hate Muslims or you must be a hateful bigoted person.
00:20:24.700And so how has how was that? I know I know Strange Death of Europe came out, you know, four years ago now, and a lot of things have changed in the world.
00:20:32.700But but but but but how do you think that that sort of came about that idea that you can't criticize cultural differences in people without getting that accusation of being called a racist?
00:20:45.700Well, well, I mean, to steal man, the argument, the opposite of straw manning something to steal man it, it is that everyone is capable of bigotry and that bigotry is is exists in all societies that exist in our societies and therefore to be a good person
00:21:07.700person and to pursue a good life would be to say, be an anti racist and the anti sexist and anti, you know, anti homophobe and a few more things.
00:21:24.700And that makes you good in the eyes of your peers and contemporaries.
00:21:27.700That's the basis for it. I think that there's a misunderstanding of the origin of that, which is that it is true that bigotry exists in all societies and it can exist in all people.
00:21:43.700It doesn't, of course, exist simply in some people and not in others.
00:21:46.700It's not like they're the children of light and the children of darkness.
00:21:49.700And one of the extraordinary things is this sort of Manichaean interpretation of our species.
00:21:58.700And, you know, of course, if you say to people, you know, which one would you like to be on the side of the goodies or the side of the baddies?
00:22:04.700A lot of people say, I'd love to be on the side of the good guys.
00:22:07.700And it's not much more complex than that.
00:23:22.700But a simple person with no particularly malevolent intent may well as a consequence grow up thinking that, you know,
00:23:33.700it's countries like Canada and Britain that are the really bigoted countries.
00:23:39.700And it's, you know, it's the rest of the world which lives in this sort of Edenic, non-human rights violating, rights respecting paradise.
00:23:49.700But I do think this is something similar that's been going on.
00:23:52.700Our societies spend all of our time talking about bigotry and prejudice and much more.
00:24:00.700And, you know, I mean, I haven't spent that much time in Canada, but I've been there a few times.
00:24:04.700And it doesn't, I don't see Gestalt-like figures, you know, parading the streets waiting to beat up minorities of any kind.
00:24:12.700You know, I've always found your average Canadian pretty easy to get along with.
00:24:16.700And I think there's something really perverse in this.
00:24:22.700It just has to point out that a fair estimation of our societies has not occurred in recent years.
00:24:30.700And that my shortcut, you know, shoot down to that is to simply to point out to people, you know, in the 1930s and 40s, Jews weren't trying to break into Nazi Germany.
00:24:42.700You know, there weren't, there weren't others from around the world desperate to get it, make it to Munich.
00:24:50.700There's a reason, there's a reason why our countries are attractive.
00:24:56.700There's a reason why the world wants to come here.
00:24:58.700And it's, it's, it's definitely the opposite of because we're bigoted, racist.
00:25:05.700So, I again, I mean, I wrote about that in The Strange Death of Europe on the issues of race and culture and identity,
00:25:13.700and then extended that in the madness of crowds into all of the other, you know, the landmines that I had previously.
00:25:21.700It does seem like it's been created intentionally, though, to, to stop conversation.
00:25:26.700Like if you have genuine concerns about, you know, bringing in tens of thousands of people from a community that doesn't have a fundamental respect for women,
00:25:36.700doesn't have fundamental respect for religious minorities and ethnic minorities and sexual minorities, you know,
00:25:41.700you know, but, but instead of having that conversation, you know,
00:25:44.700we're just sort of slapped with this accusation that does sort of create a chill in, in society.
00:25:54.700It's, it's about the most chilling thing because it's, it's the most damaging non-criminal thing you can be accused of.
00:26:04.700And on occasions, as we all know, actually treads into being a criminal matter.
00:26:10.700At least, you know, it's treated in, in, in the court system in all our countries increasingly as such.
00:26:17.700So, yes, I mean, it's about as chilling as you can get.
00:26:20.700And the, and the problem is again, is that it means that dishonest actors can get away with too much.
00:26:25.700You know, Roger Kimball, who edits the new criterion magazine in New York, I think is the person who first came up with the idea that.
00:26:36.700I very much admire that, that you, you, you, you will not be able to write this until, for instance,
00:26:44.700The cost of making a frivolous and erroneous accusation of racism against somebody carries a societal, let's say societal punishment, a social punishment, a social, you know, degradation similar to that, which would be put at somebody's feet.
00:27:09.700If it turned out, they were a racist. So the problem is, is it's a free shot.
00:27:16.700You say somebody is a racist or a homophobe or a misogynist or all of the above, because they often come as a team.
00:27:23.700They do notice as accusations. And you, you, you throw these at somebody.
00:27:29.700And if the person says, and this happens all the time, as we know, the person says, hang on, um, um, um,
00:28:30.700Yeah. And if anything, I mean, you say that they, they have no ramifications against them.
00:28:35.700It's not even that, I mean, as you point out, you know, in, in madness of crowds that they get celebrated for it.
00:28:40.700And in a lot of ways, their social status in claiming victimhood and claiming that you have been the victim of some kind of a hate act or discrimination.
00:28:48.700And, and, and sort of that, that's a way that they gain, uh, some social status.
00:28:53.700Uh, I wanted to ask you about this just shifting, I guess, towards madness of crowds.
00:28:58.700So there's a new Netflix show, uh, that my husband and I have been watching.
00:29:02.700It's, um, it's about the 1990s Chicago Bulls basketball team and Michael Jordan.
00:29:07.700And, um, it's called the last dance. It's really excellent.
00:29:11.700Um, anyways, you're watching this sort of look into the 1990s and the 1990s just seem so, I mean, it seems so far away, so far ago.
00:29:20.700Um, and, and such a sort of peaceful, idyllic society, you know, the, the biggest things that people were concerned about and looking at were, you know, the basketball team and these huge stars that were created and these big brands, you know, the, the, the, even the biggest scandal in the white house was, it was a supposed affair with an intern.
00:29:39.700I mean, you know, really small, small potatoes compared to the kinds of things that we're dealing with.
00:29:43.700So, you know, looking back at the 1990s, it, it almost seemed like some of the major issues that we're dealing with today.
00:29:49.700And, and that we started dealing with around 2015, 2016, those issues were, were like solved.
00:29:54.700They were like a thing of the past, even, even the way that Michael Jordan talked about how he had experienced some racism.
00:30:00.700But that, that was in the past and that was in the South and, and, and now it was different and, and, and that kind of thing.
00:30:06.700It seemed like somehow, you know, in, in that era, we, we felt like we had moved beyond some of these major issues.
00:30:12.700And then as you address in Madalissa's crowds, you know, by 2015, 2016, 2017, we were right in the midst of it.
00:30:18.700And so much so that the rules are constantly changing and every day there are new rules.
00:30:22.700So things that were okay yesterday are no longer okay now.
00:30:25.700So how do we get to that situation where we, it seemed like we'd move past everything.
00:30:29.700And now all of a sudden everything's coming back and it's coming back way worse than ever before.
00:30:33.700Yeah, I think that's better. That's right.
00:30:35.700I mean, I, I, as you know, I use the analogy of, of it being on the rights issues, like seeing a train drawing into the stage.
00:30:41.700That it's, that is its desired destination.
00:30:45.700Only to suddenly get a head of steam, go shooting off down the tracks, off the tracks and scattering people in its wake.
00:30:51.700You know, that, that, you know, there has been racism in the past.
00:30:55.700I don't doubt there is, there is racism today, but it's never been, there's never been less of it than there is in, you know, modern Canada or modern.
00:31:03.700So why, why is it presented as if it's never been worse?
00:31:07.700You know, there has been sexism in the past.
00:31:09.700Women were prevented from doing all sorts of things in their lives in the past.
00:31:13.700You know, there has been homophobia in the past, you know, of course.
00:31:17.700But why do we hear now about our countries being so damn bigoted at the point to which they've never been less bigoted on the question?
00:31:26.700And I think that the truth is, I'll watch that Netflix series.
00:31:31.700I thought there wasn't a Netflix series that I hadn't seen.
00:31:57.700It is the emergence of the idea that somebody who has suffered is more worthy of listening to than somebody who has not.
00:32:10.700And again, to steel man this, it's not totally untrue in certain circumstances.
00:32:21.700So, for instance, it is true that when Solzhenitsyn came out of Russia, we wanted to hear from him, not just because he was a great writer,
00:32:32.700but because he was a man who suffered and knew firsthand what he was speaking about.
00:32:38.700So there are, there is something in it, but it isn't infinite and it doesn't exist all the way down to the most minute grievance.
00:32:50.700Now, there's a second thing which is worth pointing out, which is that the left in most of our countries has for a long time now made a particular mistake.
00:33:02.700which is the mistake of thinking that when somebody suffers, they become good.
00:33:07.700Um, uh, my colleague, uh, journalists in the UK and Spectator and elsewhere, Nick Cohen, who's very much of the political left pointed this out 15 years ago in his book, What's Left?
00:33:19.700You know, why did the left always think, for instance, that peoples who had suffered under a terrible government,
00:33:27.700under the next government would be wonderful people because they'd suffered.
00:33:32.700So, I mean, they wouldn't be, you know, corrupt or they wouldn't do it again.
00:33:35.700They wouldn't be violent themselves towards anybody and so on and so forth.
00:33:39.700This, this, this erroneous idea that suffering, uh, brings, uh, insight, which it does to some people, but not to everybody.
00:33:48.700And that being a victim means you should be listened to.
00:33:53.700Now, the problem is, is that this means that there has been a stampede toward victimhood.
00:33:59.700And are, I think I could probably say this, this was some, we don't know each other very well, but we know each other a bit.
00:34:06.700And I think I can say with some certainty that in our lives, we're probably both and many other people here brought out belief.
00:34:14.700Um, when you suffered, you didn't go on about it.
00:34:19.700Now one, what was one reason in Britain, there was a phrase mustn't grumble.
00:34:23.700I can't think when the last time was that I heard that phrase.
00:34:27.700Uh, if that's the least likely phrase to hear these days, how are you?
00:34:31.700Oh, mustn't grumble. No, national sport is grumbling.
00:34:36.700Um, and, and the reason I mentioned this is because, uh, the idea that we were, I think, brought up with was among other things, you don't moan.
00:34:46.700You don't assume your life is that much worse than anyone else.
00:34:49.700Because among other things, you don't know what the person you're speaking with and to has gone through today, or indeed in their lives.
00:34:57.700So among other things, it's enormously presumptuous to present yourself as having suffered because somebody looked at you meanly once.
00:35:07.700You know, you might be speaking to somebody who was orphaned by the age of 15 or something.
00:35:12.700How the hell do you know what they've gone through?
00:35:14.700How the hell do any of us know how to evaluate their lives?
00:35:16.700And the, uh, conclusion that our societies had come up to, which partly came from, uh, um, a philosophical ethic, partly came from a political ethic, and very significantly came from a religious ethic.
00:35:29.700Was to admire quiet suffering, to admire people who suffered without, um, expecting everybody to pay attention to them.
00:35:39.700And this is actually crucial, is that we put an extremely high social status on heroism.
00:35:48.700Which is the precise opposite of the thing that we have put the social status highest with today, which is somebody who can claim to have been a victim.
00:36:00.700And if you say our societal, um, desire, our aspiration should be heroism, we celebrate heroes, we celebrate the heroic, then people will, uh, likely migrate to that direction themselves.
00:36:16.700They may not have, um, especially heroic lives, they won't all be celebrated or anything like that.
00:36:21.700But it means that you have a society which orients towards heroism.
00:36:26.700And our society, because we most reward victims, now orients itself towards victimhood.
00:36:33.700So that people in the luckiest society in history end up wishing to present themselves as if they're victims of something.
00:37:06.700I remember also, you know, one of the lessons that my parents would teach was it wasn't always a good idea to put voice to thought.
00:37:12.700So just because you were feeling down or you're having a bad day, you know, if all of a sudden you, you want to talk about it,
00:37:18.700you want to hash it out, it makes you feel some, somehow it could be therapeutic, but it could also make you feel much worse.
00:37:23.700And having this sort of group session where you're telling everyone all your, all your victimhoods, and you want to be able to speak your, your truth, whatever that means.
00:37:31.700Uh, you know, it somehow degrades the entire level of, of discourse.
00:37:35.700That is, I wanted to ask you, uh, I'll ask you sort of my last question and then we can move into the group, um, discussion.
00:37:41.700Cause I know there's a lot of people who want to get questions to you, but you, both of your, your latest two books and your big books, uh, focus on the theme of, of identity.
00:37:50.700And, and, and one of the things, you know, in, in sort of diverse pluralistic societies like Canada, the United States, to some extent, the United Kingdom,
00:37:58.700you know, our, our identity, uh, is, is, is really based, uh, first and foremost, I mean, you know, everyone has their own individual identity based on gender and all those kinds of things.
00:38:09.700But, but, but we were united in, in our identity as Canadians, you know, being a Canadian meant something.
00:38:15.700It wasn't a specific definition because in Canada, we know we have French Catholics.
00:38:32.700Uh, we, we built this society together and you know, it, it, it, it did mean something.
00:38:37.700And, and, and now we have the breaking up of, of identities into intersectionality.
00:38:42.700Do you think the original identity of, of being Canadian or being American or being, being a Brit, but not necessarily based on your, you know, your personal qualities, uh, like race and gender and those things.
00:38:53.700Do you think there's value and we can ever get back to that, to being united based on a broader identity?
00:38:59.700Or do you think now that we've come down this path where we chalked ourselves up into these little mini groups that, that going back to that, that national identity,
00:39:06.700national identities is, is, is going to be sort of too far gone?
00:39:10.700Well, uh, look at the last few weeks, whatever your views on it.
00:39:17.700Do you honestly think in your lifetime you were going to hear Justin Trudeau announced the closing of Canada's borders?
00:39:24.700Did you honestly think that you would see the EU, which at least was pretending not to be a protectionist block and protectionist within the block from country to country?
00:39:37.700Would for instance, that we would see, um, the German and French governments ban the export of masks to Italy at the point in the crisis when Italy was hit at the worst.
00:39:51.700And Germany had not yet reached anything like that.
00:39:55.700The, within the EU, I can't stress this enough.
00:39:59.700I mean, EU is the whole thing with it now is to pretend that national borders don't exist.
00:40:08.700And that, that is why I, and many others, in fact, the majority of my country voted to leave the EU because we do believe in the nation state.
00:40:15.700Um, as reasonable, the best way to organize and, and to cohere a society into an economy and much more.
00:40:23.700Um, but you know, just look at that in recent weeks, uh, the, the upsurge, by the way, in Euro skepticism, EU skepticism in Italy.
00:40:32.700You can, you can guess what the polls have shown in recent weeks since that.
00:40:37.700But it's a demonstration of what some of us argued all along, which is that the nation state exists for us.
00:40:46.700It is to part, to an extent, a construct, of course, like everything.
00:40:49.700But it's a perfectly reasonable and natural way to, um, to co, to cohere, uh, to organize and, and, and, and, and much more.
00:40:59.700And what, what has happened again, this has happened in our lifetimes is, um, the presumption that national identity is bad because it leads to nationalism and nationalism leads to war.
00:41:13.700It's a very simplistic, but in a way, a, a deep thought because it's, it, it's trying to contend with the 20th century.
00:41:25.700It's doing so in an incredibly basic way.
00:41:27.700It's taking a, a very easy to take lesson that only partly explains in very, only very, very partly explains what happened in the last century.
00:41:37.700But it says, okay, nationalism leads to this, therefore.
00:41:41.700And as I've pointed out many times, um, everything can go wrong.
00:42:01.700Now, the interesting thing is we actually know an awful lot now about where and when and how nationalism goes wrong.
00:42:08.700You know, we, we know in Germany in the 20th century among other things, among many other things, but we've had a lot more knowledge of that from a much wider array of countries and places.
00:42:21.700So we, we, we're pretty knowledgeable about where nationalism goes wrong.
00:42:25.700But the idea that because it can go wrong, you should try to degrade national identity and give people these other identities is to make so many, uh, is to commit so many.
00:42:37.700As I said, uh, I think in the strange death of Europe, before the wars of nation states racked Europe, before the Treaty of West failure, we had the wars of religion that racked Europe.
00:42:55.700Uh, um, as I say, everything can go wrong.
00:42:58.700I, I think that it's very clear that all the rights movements of the last century have all gone badly in the last phase where, like, peaking the manners of crap.
00:43:11.700Women's rights starts off as a great argument and it ends up going to this horrible, you know, man hating.
00:43:19.700You know, effectively human hating, uh, um, fourth wave phase, you know, gay rights.
00:43:26.700I think starts off as a very good, very reasonable settings.
00:43:30.700They just, just treat us like everybody else.
00:43:33.700And then ends up in this last phase being this horrible and vindictive, you know, thing that backs up, you know, Tom, I think it was said, wasn't it?
00:43:41.700Everything, every rights battle starts, you know, as something, you know, the cause and ends up, or it ends up as a business and finishes as a racket.
00:43:50.700And, um, you know, that's, that's what all these things are.
00:43:55.700And, um, and one other point, if I may, on that, which is, I think it's very interesting that, you know, we live in an era where we search for meaning as much as ever.
00:44:07.700But there are, um, the, the things we are being offered to find meaning in a very poor simulacrums of, of, of, of past, the same thing.
00:44:20.700I think that inviting people to find meaning in their, in their chromosomes, or meaning in their sexual orientation, or meaning in their, the chance of what race you're born, what your skin color is, is a, is apart from anything else, a human demeaning idea.
00:44:43.700Because it suggests that that sort of all we are, that all we are is our chromosomes or our sexual orientation or our skin color.
00:46:14.700Sometimes, you know, when I, when I was reading madness of crowds, it kind of started to think, you know, these are all a, a, a, a result of, of just everyone's living such a great, you know, prosperous, peaceful life.
00:46:25.700We, we've run out of, you know, that it's end of history to, to, to, to go back to Francis McCann's idea, but you know, there's nothing left to call about.
00:46:32.700So let's just invent all of these different grievances and, and, and, you know, maybe things have changed now that we won't, we won't go back to the, we do have a couple of hands up that we're going to get to.
00:46:42.700First, I did want to read an email question that I got from John Van Heike, who's a professor at the University of Lethbridge.
00:46:49.700He says, Douglas, I enjoyed your books very much.
00:46:51.700Your madness of crowd includes a fine analysis of how precariously defined each of the identities is, which raises questions as to how far identity politics can last.
00:47:01.700Even so the rainbow coalition in quotes, it seems pretty enduring. What do you think accounts for that? Is it simply a matter of shared hatred for the bourgeoisie heteronormativity?
00:47:13.700That's in quotes as well, or whatever you call it, or are the rainbow coalition members united more by shared hatred, or is it a shared friendship?
00:47:22.700I think it's a, thank you for the question. I think it's shared hatred in a way, but it's a hatred that people are taught into.
00:47:31.700You have to be taught into this stuff. I think it's one of the reasons why the modern universities in all of our countries have so much to answer for.
00:47:42.700Uh, where, uh, people go away and learn new grievances to adopt and become, um, more stupid on a range of issues.
00:47:53.700I mean, I'm, uh, there was a very fine example the other week when a young woman who turns out to be a, uh, teaches part-time at Oxford Brookes University and teaches in some very minor capacity at Oxford University.
00:48:06.700Uh, wrote a piece, uh, I think published on the, um, left wing clickbait site, the Huffington Post saying, um, uh, that she hoped that her university, which she said was Oxford University, which I stress wasn't quite true.
00:48:21.700Um, but she said, uh, that she hoped her university, Oxford University didn't find the vaccine for the COVID virus, because if it did, she knew it would be used as part of the nationalistic narrative of the Boris Johnson
00:48:36.700government. You've really got to be educated into that kind of stupidity to, to wish that you don't find a global pandemic virus, um, uh, um, a cure for it.
00:48:51.700Um, uh, because it would bring pride to your society and your country and anything to stop that.
00:48:59.700Uh, I pointed out because not only is it ludicrous, but it's, it's a very unnatural response to that.
00:49:08.700And it goes back to the point you just made before, which is that it's, it's a product of times being too good, that, that you don't have real grievances.
00:49:19.700And so you've got to make some up. Uh, I, I think that'll be interesting thing to see by the way, in the months and years ahead.
00:49:26.700Now that we've all had a little whiff, at least some people, a lot more of what actual grievances one might have.
00:49:34.700Uh, we might have less grievances. Um, so yes, I mean, I think it's sort of something might reassert itself in that.
00:49:44.700But, but I, I, uh, just a very quick thing. Yes. Within each identity group.
00:49:49.700I point out this deeply unstable in itself and between each other, there's almost nothing they have in common.
00:49:55.700Um, I mean, LGBT doesn't even get along. It's not even a thing. Uh, the L's and the G's don't get along.
00:50:04.700They're very suspicious of the B's and they don't like the T's in a lot of cases.
00:50:07.700And, uh, so, so it says, you know, I mean, you can do that on every single one of them, you know, ethnic minority communities.
00:50:13.700Uh, what do they think about this? Oh yeah. What? There's one view that ethnic minority communities have. Wow.
00:51:38.700Um, I, I've thought about this a lot because yes, I'm, you probably know I was sort of much caught up in all of that.
00:51:45.700Uh, this, this was, uh, for anyone who didn't follow it, this was, uh, just a year before his death in January.
00:51:50.700Uh, Roger Scruton, uh, who I think it was fair to say was our greatest living philosopher.
00:51:55.700Uh, certainly, um, the person I respected most in, in the field and who I think was most widely appreciated and indeed loved.
00:52:04.700And who had the most extraordinary range.
00:52:06.700I mean, it's, it's one important thing, isn't it?
00:52:08.700That, that not only could he write on politics and political philosophy, but also on aesthetics, on architecture, on music, on all the things that make life worth living as well as the meaning of life itself and much more.
00:52:19.700Um, uh, he was, uh, taken apart by, uh, an interviewer from the new Statesman magazine, the left wing magazine, which lied about him and, um, misquoted him and, and deliberately misquoted him.
00:52:34.700And took remarks and put in remarks that he didn't make and much more as a total hatchet job.
00:52:42.700And unfortunately in a demonstration of how degraded our press has become, the journalist in question remains in the employment of the new Statesman.
00:52:49.700Um, now I, um, I thought there was something to learn from that whole episode.
00:52:56.700Um, it's a very painful thing in a way for me because, uh, Roger was a very close friend and I, I knew that he hadn't said what this journalist said he had said.
00:53:08.700I knew it because I'd known Roger for years.
00:53:10.700And I just knew that, you know, he didn't go on anti Chinese people rants or, you know, he wasn't some sort of coarse bigot.
00:53:18.700You know, he was incredibly refined, very, very thoughtful and caring person and, uh, um, and a brilliant, brilliant mind.
00:53:46.700He's a liability as if he, as if Sir Roger Scruton was, was so much excess baggage.
00:53:51.700And, um, uh, the government in Britain, the conservative government of Theresa May, uh, which had appointed him to a non-paid position fired him within three or four hours of this hacks made up quotes coming out.
00:54:06.700Uh, the thing, several things are interesting to me and I'll do them very quickly.
00:54:10.700The first is, I think it's the first time my editor and colleague at the spectator Fraser Nelson made this point.
00:54:16.700I think it's one of the first times that a price has been paid by people for joining a Twitter mob.
00:54:23.700So several conservative MPs who joined the Twitter mob very early thinking that that would win them brownie points actually lost out as a result.
00:54:35.700Uh, one, for instance, was somebody who, who aspires to be a leader of the conservative party one day or someday, and he just, he had no idea what he was doing.
00:54:45.700And, uh, um, and he actually, he, his reputation among party members and others suffered enormously because of this, because people thought, no, that's, that's not right.
00:54:55.700And, um, so that's the, that's one of the first things I think this, the largest lesson that I took from it is just a really crucial one, which I would like people.
00:55:07.700Everywhere sort of bear in mind pass on.
00:55:11.700It's a very simple one, which is just always stick up for your mates and particularly always stick up for your mates when you know they're being lied about.
00:55:19.700And the really interesting thing in our time with this sort of Torquemada like, uh, a tendency that has existed in recent years.
00:55:28.700The really interesting thing to me is not that people fallaciously make arguments against people in order to demonize them.
00:55:37.700It's the fact that the people near the person being demonized don't stand up more.
00:55:43.700I mean, that's the case with people like Brett Weinstein, uh, in, uh, the U S who I write about the madness of crowds, a professor at a college important in Oregon.
00:55:52.700Who, um, you know, when he was a kid, he's a left wing, uh, Bernie supporting, uh, lifelong Democrat.
00:56:00.700And when he was accused of racism, uh, for something that was absolutely not racist, uh, um, none of his colleagues of decades stood up for him publicly, not one.
00:56:15.700And that's where the societal, you know, embarrassment, I think exists.
00:56:21.700I think people should stand up for their friends, particularly when they know that they are being lied about and they say, no, you're not getting away with that.
00:56:29.700We know that this is not a fair estimation of this person because we know them.
00:57:02.700Um, yes, Roger had a very long, a very thoughtful review of the madness of crowds.
00:57:07.700Um, uh, I don't think there was very much water between us.
00:57:15.700Um, uh, in fact, I spoke to Roger quite a lot when I was thinking about the madness of crowds.
00:57:22.700He was, he was always one of the people that I, you know, a certain number of people.
00:57:25.700I always sound out when I'm thinking about things and new ideas.
00:57:29.700And, um, so I, he, we didn't have 100% alignment on some of these issues.
00:57:35.700Um, but we had a fair amount, I thought, you know, the vast majority, of course.
00:57:41.700Um, I think by the way, I don't be presumptuous about it.
00:57:45.700I think that Roger's own thinking about some of these things had changed a little bit over the years.
00:57:50.700Um, uh, Roger had a lovely phrase he used to use that he said that, that sometimes it seemed to him, the role of conservatives was to fight the next battle they knew they were going to lose.
00:58:06.700And of course, one thing that comes from that is you leave behind like a sort of terrible flotsam, a load of things you did on all of the things you were fighting when they came round in the past.
00:58:21.700And, and Roger was for many decades, uh, uh, you know, the foremost conservative figure on a whole range of things saying slow down or stop.
00:58:30.700And, uh, um, and always did so in these as a friend, a mutual friend, as a philosopher said, used to do so in pieces, particularly when he was writing in the times of London, the 1980s pieces that were effectively incredibly tightly packed ideological pipe bombs.
00:58:47.700Uh, uh, uh, every sentence was, was, was, would, would, would attack a fundamental presumption of the, uh, the liberal society of the kind that, that, that, that Britain and other countries have become.
00:59:00.700Um, so yes, uh, he, uh, he was also, I mean, he was, he was great friends with a number of the people who, and was enormously influenced by and influenced a number of major figures who've been on the front lines of each of these issues.
00:59:15.700I mean, Christina Hoff Summers, for instance, remarkable, uh, academic writer.
00:59:20.700Now at the American enterprises, she was a long, long friend of Rogers and her thinking on, on feminism as much influenced by him and he was influenced by her.
00:59:28.700So it's a huge, huge presence and a huge loss.
00:59:34.700I mean, my personal thoughts on it is it seems that there's, there's a new movement.
00:59:37.700I know, um, Orrin Cass wrote a book called, um, the once and future worker and they launched a movement called the American compass.
00:59:44.700And the idea is that relying on the sort of libertarian laissez faire economic structure is limited and that we need to present something more, um, for conservatism.
00:59:54.700And I think that sort of goes in line with Sir Roger Scruton's idea that, that, that there needs to be more to conservatism as opposed to just free markets.
01:00:04.700But that's a, it's a very, very important point.
01:00:06.700And, and there are more people now catching on to this.
01:00:09.700Um, and I think that, uh, Roger was not, not alone, but one of very few people in recent decades making this, this point from the right.
01:00:21.700I think that, yes, my observation is, has been that in recent decades in particular, young people who've basically been of the right, say they're libertarian because they sort of want to get away with it somehow.
01:00:33.700But that it has seeped into being the case that, um, that, that, that the only thing conservatives know how to argue is the economy, you know?
01:00:45.700And, and that's very dangerous among other things, because when the economy goes wrong, conservative government, whether that government's fault or not, um, you know, you look like the one thing people could trust you with, you can't be trusted with either.
01:01:00.700And I do think that one of the great challenges for the political right, uh, particularly after Sputin's passing and others is, is, is to keep hope and develop thinking on all of these things.
01:01:13.700It, it seems appalling to me that, for instance, a conservative government would, you know, would just wave through the destruction of the countryside for economic reasons.
01:01:26.700Uh, or allow the building of incredibly hideous buildings in the center of your cities.
01:01:32.700Um, you know, and, and, and say, Oh, well, it brings in money.
01:01:36.700Uh, that, that doesn't seem to me a conservative argument.
01:01:39.700It's a very narrow, uh, type of free marketeer argument, but anyhow, but yes, this is, it's a very important thing to consider.
01:01:47.700Great. Uh, let's go to some of these, uh, hands that are up. Uh, let's go to page Monroe. You have a question. So we'll promote you up to panelists and page. The, uh, floor is yours.
01:02:01.700Um, hi Douglas. Thank you very much for your participation this morning.
01:02:07.700Um, I just wondered, so, um, I'm sure you're aware that Dr. Jordan Peterson has sort of been thrown into the fire because of his recent health and mental health struggles.
01:02:18.700Um, I just wondered what you would say to all of these rather disgusting people on Twitter who say that, you know, oh, he's finally got what he deserves, um, because of all of his comments.
01:02:30.700Uh, it's a very good question page. I, I, um, I, I, I know Jordan, uh, um, a bit, I'm very proud to call him a friend and, uh, um, yeah, I mean, they, you know, he and his family have had a hell of a year.
01:02:47.700And, uh, my view, my view is that, um, my other things, Jordan carried an awful lot of burden in the last few years and he carried it with exceptional grace.
01:02:59.700And fortitude and courage. And what I'm really thinking of is the fact that again, it's like, you go back to Dr. Roy's, uh, comment is, is that in question is that, um, we are in this situation.
01:03:14.700In our societies where things that majorities, I would argue of people in our societies know to be true are either said by nobody or are said by one or two people who as a result become the target of a very vociferous and noisy minority.
01:03:33.700And nobody, uh, has that been the case with more in recent years and with, uh, Jordan.
01:03:40.700Um, I thought a lot, um, throughout that period that he was carrying an incredible burden in, in the fact that, I mean, let me give you one example is that if, if you are known to be a truth teller.
01:03:55.700On one issue, you will be asked about other issues and you'll develop a truth telling tendency in those as well.
01:04:03.700Um, and all your opponents need is for you to slip up once.
01:04:08.700For you to once say the wrong word or express the wrong wording, even, or, I don't know, be human in a way like lose your temper or tell someone to shut up or, you know, things that we're all fallible humans.
01:04:39.700And he never did because he isn't the person they want to portray him as, you know, uh, the people who like to present him as if he is this sort of fantasy figure of their imaginations who this sort of misogynistic, you know, um, homophobic, racist, blah, blah, blah.
01:04:56.700You know, all of the usual, uh, curse, uh, terms, the magic spell terms.
01:05:02.700Um, it just, he isn't that, and they, and they just, they tried everything and they, they, they lied about him and they misrepresented him just like they did with Roger.
01:05:11.700And they pretended he said things he hadn't said.
01:05:14.700And, um, and they pretended that when they couldn't get him on that, they did that trick that they do now, which is say, ah, he may not have used the word, but he, he did a dog whistle.
01:05:24.700Yeah, he's a whistle for white supremacy or something.
01:05:28.700I mean, I love this one because of course, um, if, if you hear the whistle, you're the dog.
01:05:34.700Um, there are, there aren't people gifted to interpret words on behalf of the dog community or whatever.
01:05:44.700I mean, it's, it's, it's an extraordinarily presumptuous thing.
01:05:48.700I mean, just think about it for a second.
01:05:49.700These are people who pretend that although people don't use words or phrases that they want to accuse them of, the fact they haven't used those words or phrases is evidence that they're using them secretly at a special sonar level.
01:07:00.700I said this at a while ago about him in a piece trying to stand up for him when the mob was coming for him.
01:07:05.700I said, a society that was serious would say, even if it opposed what he said, would say, there must be something in this because thousands of young people are turning out to hear this person speak.
01:07:19.700So even if we don't agree with his conclusions, even if we don't agree with the landscape he's laid out as being an accurate, you know, reflection of our society.
01:07:28.700There must be something he's touching, which it would be worth finding out about and possibly addressing ourselves.
01:07:36.700And I'm so struck that Jordan's critics have almost never done that.
01:08:26.700And, um, I wanted to engage on, on various things, but the last thing that you mentioned about.
01:08:32.700So Roger Scruton and Tom Flanna getting, getting defenestrated by their own conservative parties.
01:08:38.700Uh, this is something that we've seen happen to conservative figures repeatedly over the years.
01:08:43.700Uh, not that they've done anything wrong, but simply that they were targeted for removal because of something that they allegedly said and may not even have said, but they were, you mentioned there was a lack of solidarity or, um, or principle or, um, or
01:09:01.700courage on behalf of their own, uh, contemporaries.
01:09:04.700And, and even when they were standard bearers like this men, the same thing would apply to, uh, uh, Jordan Peterson that you just mentioned as well.
01:09:12.700My question is, is the reason why that is that the, even those that call themselves conservatives, um, aren't really conservatives in anything other than what you just said, economic issues, but they don't really have a coherent philosophy or a view of what human nature actually is.
01:09:30.700And that effectively, that means that they agree with the political left, that human nature is something that we construct.
01:09:38.700And so there is no fundamental principle that underlies anything for that matter.
01:09:42.700There's nothing that they regard as self-evident and therefore there's nothing that can be proved.
01:09:47.700So the charge is enough to bring somebody down.
01:09:55.700Um, I think, I think, I, I, I do think that there are fundamental misunderstandings, including the one you just, you just mentioned of the, of an understanding of human nature or misunderstanding of human nature.
01:10:09.700Uh, which I think, yes, has been shared by many people on the right, as well as the left.
01:10:14.700I mean, I'm amazed by the number of presumptions that I find people who call themselves conservatives and often elected to be conservatives actually have.
01:10:23.700Um, including one is that, that, I mean, no conservative should believe such as, you know, the, the, the possibility of, um, well, among other things, the idea that the idea that we're better than our ancestors because we live after.
01:10:38.700You know, I mean, I mean, uh, it's a sort of very basic presumption, uh, which you, you routinely find people who, who identify as being on the right holder.
01:10:49.700Um, and, uh, perfect ability and many other things.
01:10:52.700I think though, if I can say that it might be that it's a tactical issue that causes this.
01:10:58.700And let me just explain very briefly, if I may, what I, what I mean by this.
01:11:02.700I think it's something tactical because the perception of somebody on the right airs is that they've gone into a totally unacceptable and reprehensible place.
01:11:17.700Whereas somebody on the left who airs is still of the left.
01:11:24.700Now, what I mean by this is, is, is that I, I, I once said this in a conversation with Jordan, um, that, that I, I think it's because of an understanding of politics, which we've been by pretty much since the forties is, um, this, this is a political center.
01:11:43.700And this is the right, and this is the left, this is the political center.
01:12:02.700Or at least let me put it there, this, you go there, there, and then you go down, you're, you're a fascism.
01:12:08.700And if that's still a political center and you're of the political left, you go to like slightly higher taxes, higher welfare spending, appropriation of wealth, appropriation of property.
01:12:20.700They sort of, it goes along all the way and you never get to the gulag.
01:12:26.700And I find this to be one of the most interesting, um, causes of the, the thing that has happened in all of our lifetimes of there being this vertiginous, there being a perception of a vertiginous fall off to the right.
01:12:43.700It's why, I mean, it's why so many right wing politicians describe themselves as center right.
01:12:51.700Because they say center right in order to give the sort of signal that they're not right wing because right wing is basically Hitler and they don't want to be Hitler.
01:13:02.700And the left, I mean, you know, it's not like, they don't audition to be center left.
01:13:07.700There are people who are center left, obviously, but the point is, is not just that the form of solidarity exists on the political left, but that there isn't a perception that, that it falls off in this manner.
01:13:20.700And so when somebody on the left says something, I know, well, for instance, Diane Abbott, who's just only just left the shadow cabinet here, who's a prominent Labour politician in the UK,
01:13:30.700you know, said some years ago that, you know, the chairman Mao was one of her political heroes.
01:13:36.700And when asked why she sort of said, well, he didn't, you know, enormous amount for Chinese agriculture or something.
01:14:12.700My point is, there is this strange lack of synchronicity between the political sides.
01:14:21.700And I think that it causes this follow on effect.
01:14:25.700And I've seen this with various journalists and writers over the years who have, you know, strayed into the dangerous, you know, topics of it.
01:14:33.700But the moment that they put one foot wrong.
01:14:36.700I mean, my colleague at The Spectator, Toby Young, was unbelievably liable for turning up to a conference,
01:14:44.700which was described by the political left as being a eugenicist conference.
01:14:48.700And because he sat at the back of a conference, which had to do with IQ and things like that, all very dangerous stuff.
01:14:55.700But it was, you know, at a university.
01:14:57.700He sat at the back of the room to write about the conference.
01:15:00.700And from being there was it was torn to shreds in the media and elsewhere.
01:15:06.700And everyone, you know, got away with libeling him and saying Toby Young's clearly eugenicist and wants to kill the poor.
01:15:11.700And, you know, and all this sort of nonsense.
01:15:14.700But the point is, is what's interesting is people run away because they they just think if you are again, that's the center.
01:15:21.700If and I'm here, if you just go there, I've got to run.
01:15:27.700Or I'm adjacent to use one of the favorite phrases of the time in terms of the era.
01:15:32.700I'm adjacent to somebody who's gone into reprehensible territory.
01:15:36.700And I find it a fascinating thing this.
01:15:39.700But again, is it is it not because they fear that.
01:15:42.700So when they do get mobbed like that, it's is it not because for the very reason that you just said,
01:15:47.700they feel like they are not standing on any firm, solid, broad based ground like the law of human nature, like natural law, those sorts of things.
01:15:57.700They don't believe that that is there.
01:15:59.700They believe that they're just on the spectrum, the continuum of the left.
01:16:03.700And they just happen to be on the center of that a little bit further to the right.
01:16:35.700In fact, it doesn't matter if the mob comes to the person beside you.
01:16:38.700And you're absolutely right that this, and this is what we saw in the Scruton Affairs, what we've seen in many cases, it is, it is a lack of first principles that would make somebody stand firm.
01:17:33.700And you, what I was most impressed about, in the context of identity politics and freedom of speech, was your championing of truth, that truth matters, and how much we suffer when we don't uphold the truth.
01:17:47.700But what I didn't hear from you was a definition of truth.
01:17:50.700So I would be very grateful if you could provide your context for speaking about the truth.
01:18:16.700The first is, if it's to do with simply the observation of the world around us, we can tell what is true.
01:18:30.700At the very least, we can tell what is true in all of the experience we have, and all the knowledge we have.
01:18:37.700Um, uh, we know that this color has always been agreed on to be this color.
01:18:43.700And this other color has always been agreed not to be that color.
01:18:47.700Um, uh, we know in science, uh, is, is obviously the easiest one.
01:18:54.700Um, uh, you know, there, there, there are things we know to be the case.
01:18:59.700And when somebody claims them not to be the case, uh, we can notice it.
01:19:07.700Now, of course, outside of the sciences, it becomes harder.
01:19:11.700There's been experiential terrain among other things, but let's just stick with science for a moment.
01:19:17.700I mean, look at the way in which, but by the way, let me, can I just answer this by way of a quick diversion on this?
01:19:24.700Which is one of the reasons why I ended up in matters of perhaps writing the last transition was not only, I think is very fascinating and hadn't been looked at properly and thoroughly.
01:19:36.700And, you know, with, I think the sort of understanding of what is actually maybe going, but what the questions are that it's necessary to ask and think about.
01:19:44.700One of the reasons I became interested in this issue, which is a very fringe issue.
01:19:48.700And it doesn't really have any impact on my life.
01:19:50.700Uh, was that I noticed the number of people who were scientists, who was, who, who I noticed, couldn't do what was being asked of them.
01:20:00.700And then people I knew, particularly at universities who were scientists saying to me in private, I can't do this.
01:20:08.700And when you dug down and literally see what it was, what you found.
01:20:13.700And somebody said this to me openly said, said, Douglas, for the first time in my life, I'm being asked not to use the scientific method by my university.
01:20:34.700And these are people with a very specific idea of what is true and what is not, within their field, I should say, within their terrain.
01:20:46.700Um, then you see how much easier it is to befuddle people and confuse people when it's in the much more, um, fluid nature of the non-scientific world.
01:21:00.700And so that's, that's, uh, it's not a total answer to your question.
01:21:05.700Uh, I would have to be here for days if we got to the, the fundamental, but I think that it's obviously, you know, the, the question of truth is one of the earliest.
01:21:15.700And most complex philosophical questions.
01:21:18.700Um, in a, in, in a way, sometimes when I say, when I say, um, the truth, of course, I, I mean, sometimes, um, it's a shorthand for the, what maybe it's a better way of saying is the pursuit of truth.
01:21:34.700Um, in that, in the, the, what troubles me about a whole range of things in our societies.
01:21:44.700Is not that I have the truth and other people do not, but I think that we should be searching for the truth.
01:21:53.700Searching for truth and certainly not immersing ourselves in error, cutting away error wherever we can in order to stand a better chance of getting to that which is true.
01:22:03.700And I think again, it's one of the things that has changed somewhat in our lifetime that, that isn't seen as the, the pursuit of truth is not be, is not seen currently in our societies as a, as a thing with the nobility.
01:22:22.700And I think that there are various reasons why that's the case.
01:22:25.700And one is that we have slipped for a long time into this very relativistic idea that that's because basically there isn't any such thing as truth in any realm.
01:22:36.700And that's why, and, and this, this, I mean, I know people sometimes think that people interested in ideas belabor the significance of ideas, but they do have this trickle down effect.
01:22:48.700And in our society, most commonly, this is heard in the phrase, my truth.
01:26:04.700And hopefully by lunch they'll have lost their job.
01:26:06.700And by dinner time, I can crow about my role in it and so on.
01:26:10.700Um, there's been some very interesting pieces on this.
01:26:14.700Quillette, you know, I'm sure maybe you'll hear it.
01:26:17.700It's running at least two pieces I've read by people who've said, this is what I used to do.
01:26:24.700And I just realized this was, I was not being a good person or a nice person.
01:26:31.700I was cloaking myself in the, you know, in the cloak of righteousness, but, um, I was this vengeful online person finding meaning in this, in this route.
01:26:44.700I know people and I've spoken to people myself who, who, who've done something similar.
01:26:49.700And I think there are, I think there is a learning curve that, you know, intelligent people, thoughtful people can go through on this,
01:26:59.700which is to, to, to do that for a bit and then rise.
01:27:02.700That doesn't seem to give them the meaning they actually are after in life.
01:27:07.700It gives them a version of something like meaning, but it's more like a hobby really.
01:27:12.700Um, and then they see, of course, that it comes for them or somebody they know that the mob comes for somebody who's in the most common one is a mob comes for somebody who says something that they thought quite recently.
01:27:26.700Um, that's a big learning moment because then you rise, it could have come for you.
01:27:32.700And then you wonder whether or not you want to be engaged in this.
01:27:35.700But the whole thing starts from this, this, uh, you rightly identified the advent of technology as being a, um, um, the, the, uh, aggravating factor in this.
01:27:48.700And I think that's something that I spent some time in Silicon Valley when researching the madness of crowds to try to find out more and understand more about the, the way in which the algorithms work and much more at various companies.
01:28:01.700And I do think that the single thing you remember on social media platforms is, uh, that somebody who worked at them once said that these are companies set up to profit by millions of people for free correcting other people's behavior.
01:28:22.700And once people work out and my experience, by the way, also smarter, younger people, I'm thinking people after, after millennials, they've worked this out or the smarter ones have worked this out.
01:28:40.700That what they have been being encouraged to be is to basically work for free for Twitter or whichever platform.
01:28:53.700And they've, they've worked that out that they don't see the money from it.
01:28:57.700Their friends don't see the money from it.
01:28:59.700The target doesn't see the money from it.
01:29:02.700It's something that doesn't enrich them in the, in the technical sense.
01:29:08.700That it definitely can impoverish them if it goes wrong for them.
01:29:12.700But then in the wider sense of enrichment, it doesn't bring what they thought it would.
01:29:19.700So my hope is that that, that we are in the era where that lesson is being learned too slowly, admittedly.
01:29:30.700But, you know, as we all know, it took decades to, for the actual consequences of Gutenberg to be felt.
01:29:41.700And we are in the earliest stages of this, this, and by the way, one other thing on that, which is, we are in the, one of the ones I think about the most, which is, is not quite related to your question, but it just interests me.
01:29:55.700And is that we are in the earliest stages of discovering what it means when you erase the spheres of private language from the sphere of public language.
01:30:07.700We don't know what it means when anything that anyone says could be known to the one person they're speaking to, or could be made known to the entire world.
01:30:16.700It's one of the most enormous changes in communication since we got up off our hind legs.