Juno News - Ep. 16 ｜ Dr. Debora Soh ｜ Are we witnessing the end of gender？

00:00:00.000 They see science as something that was created by quote-unquote white men, or that it's sexist or transphobic.

00:00:07.300 And so their methods really, they have nothing really to do with statistics or numbers at all.

00:00:12.240 It's very much theories that have no support for them.

00:00:15.920 Are we witnessing the end of gender? Is gender merely a social construct?

00:00:20.700 Most Canadians would likely shake their head and roll their eyes to these kinds of questions.

00:00:25.380 Of course gender is real, of course men and women are different, and of course there are only two genders.

00:00:31.160 But as I learned this interview, there is an ideological cadre not only pushing pseudoscientific claims that gender is not real,

00:00:39.520 that men can be women and women can be men, but also trying to ruin the careers and livelihoods of anyone who says otherwise.

00:00:47.260 While woke politicians and celebrities have jumped onto this bandwagon,

00:00:50.720 and now demand that you ignore everything you know to be true about biological sex and gender,

00:00:56.380 individuals who stand up for the truth are getting cancelled on a regular basis.

00:01:01.860 But what does the scientific literature say about biology, sex, gender, and those who don't fit into black and white categories?

00:01:09.020 My guest today on the True North Speaker series is Dr. Deborah So.

00:01:13.340 Dr. So is a journalist, columnist, author, and former biological sex researcher from Toronto.

00:01:19.120 She holds a PhD from York University, and her writing has appeared in the Wall Street Journal,

00:01:24.540 The Globe and Mail, Scientific American, Playboy Magazine, and many other publications.

00:01:29.880 Dr. So is a scientist, and she takes an evidence-based approach to her research.

00:01:34.760 She is known for bravely and often defiantly presenting the facts, speaking the truth,

00:01:40.160 and standing up to the ideological forces by debunking the myths about sex and gender.

00:01:45.500 In our conversation today, Dr. So and I discuss her new book,

00:01:50.120 The End of Gender, debunking the myths about sex and identity in our society.

00:01:54.640 And we talk about some of the biggest myths being pushed by activists.

00:01:58.260 We also talk about the harsh realities for trans people that are rarely discussed,

00:02:02.840 her advice for parents dealing with gender ideology in the classroom,

00:02:06.520 and how we as a society need to stand up for the truth

00:02:09.640 and push back against anti-scientific propaganda.

00:02:13.300 I hope you enjoy our conversation.

00:02:15.480 Please like this video, share it with friends and family, and leave me a comment below.

00:02:19.800 Don't forget to subscribe to True North,

00:02:21.900 and if you'd like to support this podcast, please visit tnc.news.com.

00:02:26.860 Donate.

00:02:37.620 Well, Dr. Deversow, thank you so much for joining the True North Speaker Series.

00:02:41.600 Thank you so much for having me.

00:02:43.500 Yeah, it's great to have you.

00:02:44.640 I feel like we've been trying to coordinate this for a while,

00:02:46.600 and I'm really excited that you put out this book, The End of Gender,

00:02:50.680 so that we can sort of put a whole bunch of the myths to rest around gender ideology.

00:02:55.620 I feel like it's an issue that's so popular right now,

00:02:58.880 and it's such a breath of fresh air to have someone just laying to rest all these myths.

00:03:04.080 So congratulations on the book.

00:03:05.900 Thank you. Thanks so much.

00:03:07.920 So I kind of want to find out a little bit about you before we get into the book.

00:03:12.540 So you're based in Toronto.

00:03:14.600 Tell us a little bit about your background and how you ended up doing this stuff.

00:03:19.180 So my background is as an academic sex researcher.

00:03:23.020 So in the book, I do talk about how I went from being a sex scientist to a journalist

00:03:28.440 and then moving into political commentary.

00:03:30.960 So I really thought at the time that I was going to be a scientist pretty much until the end of my career.

00:03:36.260 And I noticed toward the end of my PhD that there were certain topics

00:03:39.680 that were becoming increasingly seen as controversial.

00:03:44.460 Even experts in the field didn't want to touch them.

00:03:46.680 One issue in particular had to do with transitioning in young children, so gender transitioning.

00:03:52.900 So pretty much all of the mainstream news coverage at the time was saying for these children

00:03:57.440 who say they were born in the wrong body, the best way forward for them would be an early transition.

00:04:03.380 So usually changing their name, changing their haircut, either growing their hair long

00:04:07.380 or cutting it or wearing different clothes.

00:04:09.320 But from a scientific perspective, all of the research literature shows that the vast majority

00:04:14.700 of kids who are gender dysphoric, they are more likely to grow up to be gay in adulthood,

00:04:19.380 not be transgender.

00:04:20.920 And these feelings of dysphoria desist by puberty.

00:04:24.880 So they tend to remit on their own.

00:04:27.580 So at the time, you know, this was considered, I mean, it's still considered really contentious

00:04:31.460 to talk about, to discuss it.

00:04:33.620 I wrote an op-ed about this because I felt very strongly that the public should hear about

00:04:37.780 it, especially parents who were being basically intimidated by activists and told that this

00:04:42.280 is the only way forward for their children.

00:04:43.680 Otherwise, their child's going to commit suicide if they don't transition, which is not true.

00:04:47.640 So I wrote this op-ed.

00:04:49.160 I waited about six months.

00:04:50.300 I didn't know if I wanted to publish it.

00:04:51.880 I asked a number of my mentors and colleagues what they thought I should do.

00:04:54.920 And they were very supportive of me, but they told me essentially, you know, you know

00:04:58.280 it's going to happen.

00:04:59.320 And my choice was essentially, did I want to publish it or, I mean, I knew that if I

00:05:05.140 did so, I'd probably have to leave academia.

00:05:06.680 So that was my choice.

00:05:08.700 I was very fortunate.

00:05:09.760 I became a weekly columnist for playboy.com shortly thereafter.

00:05:13.120 And then, then I wrote this book.

00:05:15.000 So here we are.

00:05:15.920 And I have not looked back for one second and I don't, I don't at all.

00:05:19.420 I miss the field of sex research, but I also don't, I don't think I would have lasted

00:05:25.020 very long if I had ended up staying.

00:05:26.760 Just with the, the way things have going, have been going, the climate has become even

00:05:31.280 more politicized, more polarized.

00:05:35.040 And as we see any expert, any scientist who tries to go against particular narratives,

00:05:39.300 especially when it comes to gender, when it comes to trans orthodoxy, they really pay

00:05:44.580 a price for doing so.

00:05:46.600 Well, it's interesting.

00:05:47.640 So, so you grew up in Toronto and is that right?

00:05:51.500 You're from Toronto.

00:05:52.100 And, and so what was it initially though, that made you want to go into sex research

00:05:59.500 and become a scientist is sort of a, an atypical career field.

00:06:04.200 I don't know if there are a lot of, of women that do that, do that go into this field of

00:06:08.720 research, but what, what, what brought you there in the first place?

00:06:11.020 As I, I mean, I, part of the goal of my career is to bring more awareness to sexology, which

00:06:18.060 is the scientific study of, of sex and gender.

00:06:20.460 I do want it to be seen as a legitimate science because it is, I think sex remains quite stigmatized

00:06:26.520 in our society.

00:06:27.260 In the book, I talk very much about how I'm sex positive.

00:06:29.660 I don't think there should be any shame or guilt around sex or talking about sex.

00:06:34.480 So for me, I just happened to stumble upon a placement during graduate school and I loved

00:06:40.680 it.

00:06:41.060 I didn't know such a thing as sex research existed, but at the time I was doing brain

00:06:44.220 imaging research and that it was such a new way of looking at the field.

00:06:50.120 And I've also felt it was so relevant to so much of who we are as human beings and understanding

00:06:56.860 our own behavior.

00:06:58.180 And as I learned more about it, I realized also that it challenged so many ideas I had.

00:07:02.400 So, you know, when I was, I still would consider myself very much in favor of gender equality.

00:07:06.500 I've distanced myself from the label of feminist, but I used to be very much a really hardcore

00:07:10.940 feminist.

00:07:11.940 There are a number of things I believed very strongly that I felt were tied to being an

00:07:16.200 independent, free thinking woman that I realized were not actually based in science, not based

00:07:21.040 in fact at all.

00:07:22.240 So I think that was part of also a shift for me intellectually from, from feminist dogma to

00:07:27.660 science and sexology.

00:07:29.760 And that's probably also part of what my interest was in suddenly realizing all of these things I

00:07:34.720 thought were true or not true.

00:07:35.900 And here is a source that is actually educating me and teaching me what the truth is.

00:07:41.300 But I would definitely say it's, it's a, it's rare, I guess.

00:07:45.700 It's more rare when you think of what people tend to do if they want to go into the science

00:07:48.780 and especially, you know, being Asian.

00:07:50.920 My parents at first didn't really understand what I was, what, what I was doing, but they're

00:07:54.600 very happy for me now.

00:07:55.460 I'm very supportive.

00:07:56.380 So did you come from sort of a strict background and family or were your parents pretty open-minded?

00:08:02.300 Pretty open-minded.

00:08:03.620 Yeah.

00:08:04.060 Yeah.

00:08:04.320 They've been, they've been great.

00:08:05.420 I mean, I think for any parents, I mean, I also my, my change to journalism, any parents,

00:08:11.140 I mean, not many people go in, do a PhD in science and then completely change fields when

00:08:16.840 they finish.

00:08:17.340 But yeah, I've been very fortunate in that way.

00:08:19.280 I've also worked really hard.

00:08:20.400 So I think that's part of it also to show any, everyone, you know, that I think it's

00:08:25.720 easy to, to be skeptical when people say they want to change career trajectories, but I've

00:08:32.820 just, I'm very, I guess, stubborn in wanting to prove people wrong.

00:08:37.600 Well, that's great.

00:08:38.520 It's interesting because in your book, you make the distinction between sex research,

00:08:44.040 which is a science and sort of gender studies or feminist studies, which, which are sort

00:08:49.260 of more, I guess, social sciences or not really science at all.

00:08:52.840 So can you just very quickly explain the sort of difference between the two fields?

00:08:57.760 Right.

00:08:58.380 And, and sometimes you will see people talking as though they are sexologists or they're

00:09:02.980 talking about the quote unquote science of sex, but it's not, it's very much ideological.

00:09:06.940 So the difference between a discipline like sexology, which is science-based, it's empirically

00:09:12.580 based, it's very much about the scientific method and conducting very rigorous studies.

00:09:18.560 Ideally, when you do a scientific study, you go in with your, your hypotheses, but you design

00:09:23.600 your study in a way that you're going to try and get as close of an approximation to the

00:09:28.180 truth as possible.

00:09:28.960 And you're not going to design your study in a way to fulfill whatever you think the outcome

00:09:34.580 might be.

00:09:35.080 You're open to whatever you find essentially, whereas, and it's quantitative methods that

00:09:41.120 are used.

00:09:41.500 So this, these are numbers, you know, it's very much about accuracy and precision versus

00:09:47.400 fields like it.

00:09:50.040 I, I hesitate to throw any particular disciplines under the bus, but I guess I do in the book.

00:09:54.320 So I might as well do it here as well.

00:09:55.700 So something like, um, gender studies or, uh, anything with the word studies in its discipline

00:10:02.660 title is suspect in my mind, because again, not all scholars in those fields are necessarily

00:10:08.960 ideological, but many of them will say they are not in favor of science.

00:10:13.640 They're not in favor of the scientific method.

00:10:15.580 They see science as something that was created by a quote unquote white men or that it's sexist

00:10:21.260 or transphobic.

00:10:21.620 And so their methods really, they have nothing really to do with statistics or numbers at all.

00:10:27.820 It's very much theories that I have no support for them.

00:10:31.660 And oftentimes, I mean, it's completely nonsensical if you tried to read their papers and they're not

00:10:38.740 really interested in any sort of rigor or debate.

00:10:41.580 It's very much about my sense is it's about whatever social change they're seeking to employ.

00:10:46.940 And then they work backwards and their so-called papers, um, support those ideas because they're

00:10:53.740 more interested in whatever change their social or political agenda they're, they're seeking to

00:11:00.460 fulfill.

00:11:00.940 It's not about actually getting an understanding of what reality is.

00:11:04.220 So I, I'm not in favor of those disciplines.

00:11:06.620 I think if they were to be more open to whatever they were to find, or if they were less because

00:11:14.060 they act as though they offer some sort of, um, some sort of adequate replacement for science,

00:11:21.020 because they're trying to essentially be rid of scientific disciplines and say that their way is

00:11:25.260 the best way forward, but it's not even close to adequate as a replacement because again, it's

00:11:31.900 completely based in nonsensical ideas that have been unproven.

00:11:36.220 So that's, that's my issue with that.

00:11:37.980 And I would say for people who, because when studies come out, what we're seeing now is more

00:11:41.900 of this ideology is coming into actual scientific studies that are published, which is very worrisome

00:11:46.700 to me because understandably, you know, most people are busy.

00:11:50.780 They don't have time to go digging and read these studies and see who are the authors and figure out,

00:11:55.260 is this a legitimate scientific study or not?

00:11:57.580 But in the book, I do offer some pointers in terms of what to look for to determine whether a study is

00:12:03.260 legitimate or if it is something that is basically biased.

00:12:07.660 Yeah.

00:12:07.980 It's so interesting because so, I mean, it's been a while for me since I was in university,

00:12:11.420 but I studied political science and economics and, you know, that they, they rely a little bit on

00:12:17.020 data, but then I also took a bunch of sociology courses.

00:12:19.820 And that was where I sort of had the kind of run in with the Marxism and sort of postmodernist

00:12:27.660 ideology that is really rammed down your throat in a lot of social science courses.

00:12:32.300 I had a lot of Marxist professors and I kind of thought, okay, this is just happening in social

00:12:36.860 sciences.

00:12:38.220 The hard sciences are safe.

00:12:39.660 Like that's a place where they pursue like pure knowledge and use a scientific method.

00:12:45.100 And the, the, the problem of ideology doesn't exist there, but it seems like just over the

00:12:49.660 last, like maybe five, 10 years, it really has creeped into the sciences where to your point,

00:12:55.020 you can't, you can't really trust whether or not a study is accurate because you don't know

00:13:00.060 if the authors are being ideological.

00:13:03.020 In your book, you have a couple of examples of sort of peer reviewed papers that came out

00:13:07.500 that basically got pulled because they pushed the contra, a controversial idea, you know,

00:13:14.460 about whether or not like men and women have different brains and, and these kinds of things.

00:13:19.660 Did you worry that, that, that hard sciences and things like biology,

00:13:23.660 you're just not going to be trustworthy, you know, in the next five, 10 years.

00:13:28.860 I do worry about that.

00:13:30.380 And I, I would go one step further and say it's beyond something like biology being seen as

00:13:34.860 not trustworthy. It's just, no, one's going to want to do any research in these fields because

00:13:40.060 they're all being taken out and the studies are being pulled and the individual professors are

00:13:44.220 being targeted. I think the reason we got to this point is because, you know, being an academic

00:13:51.100 in the sciences is extremely competitive. You know, they're working 70 plus hours a week. They don't

00:13:57.020 have time to be dealing with mobs on social media or be dealing with all of this, um, political

00:14:03.740 interference. I mean, and also when, once you get to that point, you're very focused on your work,

00:14:08.620 you're very passionate about your work and you just want to do good science. I mean,

00:14:12.060 I can't speak for everyone in the field, but that's, that's my sense. And so I think there's

00:14:16.300 this sense that being a good scientist will prevail. And unfortunately that's just not how it is now.

00:14:21.900 And that's not how it is culturally where people who are completely anti-science actually do have a

00:14:27.420 say in terms of what science is being produced and who gets a voice, even if they aren't an expert in

00:14:32.780 the field. And we see this very much with activists who have in some cases, absolutely no understanding

00:14:38.460 of these scientific disciplines or even what the paper that was published said, and yet they have

00:14:43.740 the power to have it retracted, which to me should never happen. So I think because legitimate scientists

00:14:49.900 are so busy, they're preoccupied with their work. And I think in some senses, um, maybe a little bit

00:14:55.260 idealistic in terms of thinking that because they're doing good work, that's really what matters.

00:14:59.260 Uh, this is why we see this happening now where the activism has become so entrenched and now it is

00:15:05.260 actually affecting the kind of knowledge that's being produced.

00:15:08.220 So, so you were in academia and you, you felt like the, the culture was just pushing

00:15:15.180 one way that was so far from the research and the data that you were seeing sort of in your,

00:15:19.900 in your own research that, that, that, that's sort of what prompted you to, to decide to speak out

00:15:25.020 and leave academia. Have you, uh, what, what was sort of like the, the straw that broke the camel's back

00:15:30.460 or what, what was it that pushed you over the edge to say, okay, I can't, I can't be in academia

00:15:35.260 anymore. I have to go in and speak to the public and become a journalist.

00:15:40.060 I would say it was probably when that op-ed was published, I was mobbed pretty badly on social media.

00:15:45.020 That was my first mobbing. Uh, but I have to say for anyone who's afraid of being mobbed on social media,

00:15:50.140 once you survive the first one, the rest of them are quite literally a walk in the park, as I'm sure,

00:15:54.700 sure, you know, that I, and I think also because I knew what was coming, I was prepared mentally and

00:16:00.300 emotionally for it. So I was able to withstand it a bit better than, you know, I've seen some of my

00:16:05.260 colleagues who get mobbed and they really weren't expecting it. And, and it leaves them quite shaken

00:16:09.500 after. I mean, I think there are some, some legitimate psychological effects as a result of,

00:16:15.580 of being attacked so viciously. I mean, just because it's online doesn't mean it's not

00:16:19.660 real to some extent, but I think what, what I see happening is for some of us who go through that,

00:16:25.100 we just become emboldened and say, you can't stop me. I'm going to keep speaking the truth. It doesn't,

00:16:29.900 you're not going to, to bully me into being quiet. Whereas other people really have a bad experience

00:16:34.620 and they don't, they don't want to ever engage and deal with that. And they go a little bit quiet

00:16:38.700 after. Um, but in terms of what, I think that was part of the process and made me realize I survived

00:16:44.060 that. And I, I felt strongly again, there, there are certain issues within sex research that are being

00:16:50.140 either misrepresented in the mainstream or that they're biased or particular ideas were, were

00:16:56.620 taking hold that are unhelpful. So, um, that was really my motivation. And then with the book,

00:17:03.100 it was based on all the questions people have been asking me in the time that I've been writing about

00:17:06.940 the science of gender and really wanting to be able to answer all their questions because the standard

00:17:11.420 column is usually about a thousand words. So I'm not able to get less. Yeah. Sometimes they're shorter,

00:17:17.180 like five, 600 words or right. Yeah. And so it doesn't give you a lot of space to really hash out

00:17:22.860 all your ideas. And especially with these issues, because they are considered so controversial. I

00:17:29.100 wanted to make sure that if I'm going to, if I'm going to talk about this stuff, I want it to be done

00:17:33.340 in a way that is both accurate to the scientific data, but also sensitive and also nuanced.

00:17:39.420 So the book gave me the opportunity to do that. That's great. And so did you have pushback against,

00:17:45.420 I know in the book, you talked about how you kind of kept it quiet that you were writing this book

00:17:49.820 because you were worried that they would go after the publisher. I know that's happened to so many

00:17:54.380 academics and journalists too, that they have a book deal and this sort of mob that you're talking about

00:17:59.820 that the cancel culture mob finds a way to protest or lobby the publishing company and to get the book

00:18:07.180 deal pulled. So did you have any kind of pushback like that or were you able to just sort of fly under

00:18:12.700 the radar? Yeah. As I wrote in the book, I was very quiet. I literally told three people in my life

00:18:18.220 when I signed the book deal. It was really difficult for me not to say because people on social media,

00:18:23.420 my readers would reach out and they would say, are you okay? We haven't seen anything from you for a

00:18:27.020 while. And I really wanted to tell them what I was working on and to say, you know, get ready,

00:18:30.940 because I think this is going to be something that will really speak to the concerns you have.

00:18:35.420 But I mean, there's been backlash since it came out for sure. I mean, I could go through the things

00:18:42.940 that have happened, but part of me also feels like I try to stay very positive and I feel very,

00:18:47.980 very blessed to be in the position where, you know, I did get to write this book and then it is

00:18:52.380 going and so many people have been reading it and giving me their feedback. So maybe I'll leave it at

00:18:56.540 that, but I'll definitely say that, you know, there were some appearances that I've done that

00:18:59.580 have been covered in a very biased way. People have called me all kinds of things like transphobic.

00:19:05.100 They say my book is anti-trans, which I don't believe it is. I think anyone who actually reads

00:19:09.180 the book and listens to what I say knows that I have, I have only love for trans people. I only,

00:19:15.820 I have love for anyone that I discuss in the book. It's not coming from a place of,

00:19:21.740 of wanting of any sort of ill intent. And so I would just say for anyone watching or listening to

00:19:27.660 this, just don't listen to come to your own opinion of me and what I have to say and of

00:19:34.780 the end of gender after reading it, as opposed to what people say, because in a lot of cases,

00:19:39.020 people misrepresent what I say, or, um, yeah, they just blatantly make things up and say that,

00:19:45.180 I claim that I've said things that I, that I would never say because I don't believe those things.

00:19:48.620 Yeah. I, well, I think, I mean, I've, I've been through a similar thing, obviously a very different

00:19:54.220 issue, but I, I read a lot about immigration. My background in acting was studying terrorism and

00:20:00.220 looking into different terrorist groups. And I started writing really publicly about immigration

00:20:04.700 during the big, you know, immigration crisis in Europe in 2015 and what was happening in Canada.

00:20:10.380 And I, I got the same kind of thing. It's like, just by talking about issues that are seen as sort of

00:20:14.860 taboo or politically incorrect, you get labeled with the worst possible names. Like for me,

00:20:19.020 it was Islamophobic or xenophobic or racist. And it's like, it, in some ways it's so jarring to,

00:20:25.100 to have those kinds of words thrown at you. I mean, I read your book and, and, you know,

00:20:29.740 obviously you're not transphobic. You, you care a lot about the issue, but also you're a scientist.

00:20:34.380 So you're very removed and diplomatic and talking about the data. And so it's, it's kind of shocking,

00:20:41.980 Deborah, that people would, would, would take what you're writing and, and use that to, to come up

00:20:46.700 with this, this concept that you're transphobic when, when you're clearly not, uh, that, that

00:20:51.260 doesn't phase you though. Um, I, I saw you on, on Joe Rogan, which is a huge platform. Um, congratulations

00:20:58.060 on that. What, what's it like going on in show? Thank you. Uh, that was, so the most recent appearance,

00:21:03.740 like, well, I believe it was August 5th. So it was the day after the book came out. That was the

00:21:07.260 second time I'd been on a show. He's amazing. You know, I've, I've followed him for years. I've

00:21:11.580 been a fan of his for years and it, I really appreciate that he was willing to have me on

00:21:16.860 to talk about the book because he has also, I don't want to speak for him, but my senses,

00:21:20.540 he's also received some pushback for that. And it would have been very easy for someone like him to

00:21:25.580 say, why, why take this on? Why do this to yourself? You know, he's very successful. He obviously doesn't

00:21:31.260 need, he doesn't need any of this stuff, but he was still willing to get, share his platform with

00:21:36.620 me. So I, I really appreciate that. Yeah. I think, you know, when people call you names, I would say

00:21:42.220 in the beginning, definitely it was jarring for me as well to, to, to, because I know that some people

00:21:46.700 will see that they'll say Debra, so as a transphobe and they'll just say, okay, she must be a bad

00:21:52.140 person. I'm going to not look at her work or I'm just, if her name ever comes up, I'm just going to

00:21:57.260 assume she's a hateful person. And I think you, we have to just get past that. You know,

00:22:02.060 I feel that was very helpful for me to just believe that I think most people who have critical

00:22:06.860 thinking skills will hopefully take the time to actually go and read my work and then look up,

00:22:11.580 is there some truth to that? And I really appreciate it with my audience because they'll tell me,

00:22:16.380 my friend was saying this about you. And I told them actually, no, she's not that you go read her work

00:22:20.220 and you can see. So that's, I guess the advice I would have, because I think a lot of people live in fear

00:22:25.580 of being called these names when they are not whatever it is they're, they're afraid of being

00:22:30.060 called. And as long as you know that that's really what matters. And if people are so, so much like

00:22:35.660 sheep that they're not even going to, they just blindly believe what people tell them, then, you

00:22:40.380 know, I don't think it really matters what those people think. Yeah. Those aren't the people that

00:22:45.260 are going to be convinced anyway. So not, not good idea to spend your time on them. Although I do,

00:22:52.460 I did read your book that you, uh, you like reading the comments section on, uh, your, your

00:22:59.020 articles and you do, I don't really do, I do it a little bit, but sometimes it's just so like overwhelming

00:23:04.380 or crazy what people are saying that you're kind of like, you know, it is good to get the feedback, but

00:23:09.180 you kind of have to filter it out, especially on Twitter. Cause there's a lot of craziness out there.

00:23:13.740 Oh, for sure. And I, I would say 90% of it usually is garbage, but for the 10% that is

00:23:19.900 actually someone who's trying to engage in good faith, um, it has been helpful for me. And I

00:23:24.380 definitely have taken that feedback into consideration when I was writing the end of

00:23:27.740 gender. And also, you know, just more broadly, because I think it is important. The only way

00:23:33.260 that I know, or any of us know that we are correct or that we're making sense is

00:23:37.980 to challenge ourselves and say, well, where, where are the potential holes in what I'm saying?

00:23:41.660 And if people, I do like criticism because I think that's the only way you can get better

00:23:46.540 as well, but there's a line between criticism and abuse and people obviously being nasty,

00:23:51.420 but there are some people I think who are able to be, um, respectful and how they engage. And so

00:23:56.780 I'm, I'm willing to take what they have to say on board in that case.

00:24:00.380 That's great. Well, the book is the end of gender debunking the myths about sex and identity

00:24:06.220 in our society. So I know you cover nine main myths in this book and

00:24:11.020 you know, to, to me, I I'm familiar sort of with like a cursory understanding of these issues,

00:24:17.500 but I didn't know like the in-depth of them. And one of the thing that, that struck me,

00:24:21.740 Deborah was just how many kind of contradictions there were just among the nine myths. Like,

00:24:26.700 uh, you know, so many of the ideas that people who are sort of holders of gender ideology have

00:24:33.820 don't, don't make sense under basic scrutiny. So I think it's great that, that your book winds this up.

00:24:39.980 And, you know, for me, not, not, not having a scientific background and not having a background

00:24:44.060 at all in, in biology and, and, uh, sexology, it was really helpful just to break down the terms,

00:24:49.740 because it can be really confusing and therefore intimidating, because you're like, I don't even have

00:24:54.460 the first sense of what these people are talking about sometimes. Like when I first started learning

00:24:58.460 about pronouns or the trans community, it's like, wow, there's a lot here. And there's a lot of new

00:25:03.500 words that I've never heard of. And this is sort of a lot to unpack. So I really appreciate that your

00:25:07.900 book sort of laid it all out in, you know, sort of layman's, uh, terms so that it's approachable,

00:25:13.900 uh, to anyone. But I thought maybe we could go through a couple of these myths and you could just

00:25:18.300 sort of explain sort of how, how, how, how they came about and, and what's, uh, what's wrong with

00:25:24.860 them. So maybe first, uh, your first, the first myth that you, that you debunk here is that biological

00:25:31.340 sex is a spectrum. We, we hear that a lot. First of all, I was wondering if you just explain the

00:25:35.660 difference quickly between sex and gender. Right. Well, thank you for that feedback,

00:25:41.980 because that, that was definitely one of my goals with the book was to, to write the science in a way

00:25:45.980 that anyone can understand it. If you have zero background in science or biology, because that's

00:25:52.540 important. I think even the best scientific papers, if they are not written in a way that someone can

00:25:57.020 understand it and can access it as well, because a lot of science is behind a paywall. So people

00:26:02.300 can't even read the thing. Um, I felt that was important because otherwise the content is completely

00:26:07.100 lost. So I'm glad to hear that in terms of sex and gender. So biological sex is determined by gametes.

00:26:14.620 So these are mature reproductive cells. So they're eggs and sperm. And then gender has to do with how we feel

00:26:20.540 um, in relation to our biological sex. So whether we feel masculine or feminine. So if someone is

00:26:25.740 transgender, they identify more as the opposite sex than their birth sex. And then gender expression

00:26:31.340 is how we express our gender identity. So usually this is through clothing, mannerisms, um, our haircut,

00:26:39.500 makeup, things like that. Uh, so then with regard to the myth of biological sex being a spectrum. So this

00:26:45.340 is something that's been become more and more prominent, I would say probably the last year or

00:26:49.660 so. And I think where it's coming from is wanting to, um, argue in favor of rights for people who are

00:26:58.620 intersex. So intersex people, um, possess characteristics of both male and female. And I'm totally on board with

00:27:05.740 that. Um, I think intersex people should be given legal protections, you know, equal rights. I think intersex

00:27:14.060 children should be left alone and have bodily autonomy. Um, they should not be forced to undergo

00:27:20.540 unwanted potentially surgeries because that's another concern that there's been a history of

00:27:25.420 that for intersex children. Um, but I don't think we have to redefine biological sex or pretend that it is

00:27:31.820 a spectrum when it's not most intersex people actually do want to live within the binary. They want

00:27:37.340 to live as male or female. They don't want to be something in between that or, or to collapse male

00:27:44.300 and female into one construct. So, um, that's a, that is a very unusual one when I started to see that

00:27:52.060 idea become more prominent because it doesn't make sense because we have, again, eggs and sperm,

00:27:57.980 there's nothing in between. So again, it's binary. It's interesting that, that this concept has kind

00:28:06.540 of come up. Cause I remember back when I was in university, there was this idea that sexual

00:28:12.540 orientation was a spectrum that you could like that, that, that everyone was on the spectrum

00:28:17.340 somewhere, uh, whether you were like a little bit gay or very gay. And, and they're kind of pushing

00:28:22.860 this idea of spectrum. And then, and then now it's taken on the idea of gender and sex itself.

00:28:29.500 So, so the idea that there aren't just two genders, but there are hundreds or even potentially

00:28:36.220 infinite number of, number of genders. Um, so just because, because I don't want to come across as

00:28:43.820 insensitive and I'm trying to, you know, take on this issue in good faith. The, the, the idea that

00:28:49.180 there are intersex people and there have been throughout human history and across cultures,

00:28:54.380 that, that, that, that is, that is a fact of biology, correct? Yes. Yes. And, and, and so,

00:29:00.540 so the idea that someone would be born with ambiguous genitalia or both male and female genitalia,

00:29:07.340 and then, and then, and that, that case, the person would still biologically be either male or female,

00:29:13.100 correct? Yes. Because intersex people for the most part still produce

00:29:17.980 one or the other type of gamete. Um, it's very, very, very rare that someone has the capacity or

00:29:23.900 the capability to produce both. And even in that case, they usually will only produce one or the

00:29:30.220 other. It's not that they're able to produce both at the same time, but I find most people when they

00:29:34.140 are trying to argue in favor of biological sex being a spectrum, they don't even look at the data.

00:29:39.500 They don't even look at these very, very rare case studies. They very much just say,

00:29:44.140 we want X, you know, we want rights for this group. So this is what we're going to say. And you see,

00:29:49.820 you know, so-called scientific experts arguing this as well, because again, they're, they're basically

00:29:56.060 reverse engineering what they would like the social policy to be. And so then they're changing what

00:30:00.780 science says in order to facilitate that. And is this, this is just like a prevalent thing that's come

00:30:07.340 up recently, Deborah? Because I, I mean, again, I feel like this stuff wasn't really an issue five,

00:30:12.700 five years ago or so, but I have seen it recently. Like, I think there's an example in Nature Journal

00:30:17.260 that said that, uh, the idea of two sexes is simplistic and that biologists are now think

00:30:23.340 that there's a wider spectrum, presumably that would exist in, in all animals. So, so, so the idea

00:30:28.380 that, that, that really the idea of male and female are kind of like a social construct.

00:30:33.020 How, how long have you been seeing this, this argument floated around?

00:30:36.940 Um, well, I would say it started with the argument of gender as a social construct,

00:30:41.500 which it is not. And so I argue about that myth in the book. And then from there it went to

00:30:46.380 gender is a spectrum, which it also is not. And I argue against that in the book.

00:30:50.540 And then it's expanded now to biological sex as well. So it's been this progression,

00:30:54.380 I would say the specific, specific to biological sex being not binary, probably in the last two years,

00:31:01.580 really was when it really started to pick up. Um, because yeah, we saw that with nature. Nature

00:31:07.340 is one of the most prestigious scientific journals in the world. In 2018, there was that whole debacle

00:31:13.740 with the Trump's memo saying that sex is defined at birth by genitalia and being people, all the media

00:31:22.700 freaked out and not, well, not all, but I would say the majority of left leaning media outlets got very

00:31:28.300 upset about this and said that he was erasing trans people and intersex people. I do want to emphasize,

00:31:32.860 I do support transitioning in transgender adults because research does show that can be beneficial.

00:31:38.060 And also adults have the cognitive capacity to make life altering decisions. But, um, you know,

00:31:44.620 I talk more specifically in the book about this particular incidents in 2018 and, and how really what

00:31:50.940 the memo was saying was not actually that inaccurate depending on how you define sex versus gender,

00:31:58.620 because what we saw as journalists were using the word gender when really what they should have been

00:32:02.940 using was sex. So when you use the word gender and you say that gender is defined at birth and by genitalia,

00:32:08.300 that's a much different meaning from saying that sex is determined, uh, at birth and by genitalia. So, um,

00:32:16.860 yeah, I mean, I, I, I would say that I'm curious to see what they're going to come up with next,

00:32:22.220 but I'm really not, I really would like for all of this to stop, but there's going to be more of it.

00:32:26.460 I know for sure, because it's always about pushing boundaries. It's always about rewriting and

00:32:30.620 redefining things because that's, that's the only way that, um, people who aren't anti-science can really

00:32:38.780 do away with the field.

00:32:39.740 It's so, it's so interesting. I know you write about it in the book a lot that

00:32:44.460 the idea and conservatives get accused of it all the time of being anti-science.

00:32:48.620 I, I think sure there's probably truth to that in the past, but you know, I'm, I'm a conservative

00:32:55.100 and I think that science is incredibly important and I, I don't really understand the argument.

00:33:00.300 Usually when people say like, oh, the Harper government was anti-science, it's like a quibble

00:33:05.020 over, you know, funding or, you know, whether or not we have, how many questions we ask on a census

00:33:11.020 form and stuff like that. And I don't think that they're very sort of substantive, but we have seen

00:33:15.100 this new attack on science coming from the left and it, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's really

00:33:23.660 unfortunate. And I, I think it's, it's so important that we have people like yourself that, that, that

00:33:29.020 call it out on both sides. Uh, I think, I think you, you probably do call it out, uh, against conservatives

00:33:34.940 when you see it as well. Yeah. I mean, I would still call myself a liberal. I'm certainly not

00:33:40.300 far left, but this book is, um, I mean, I do call it both sides, but I would say predominantly it's

00:33:45.180 about calling out left-leaning science denial, because when it comes to gender and gender ideology,

00:33:51.020 left-leaning science denial is definitely posing more of a threat right now in terms of influencing,

00:33:55.980 like I mentioned, what kind of science is allowed to be done and what is allowed to be published. And

00:34:00.940 ultimately, um, how we talk about these issues in our day-to-day lives. So I think within the field

00:34:08.060 of sex research in particular, because the vast majority of sex researchers are liberals, um,

00:34:15.020 historically the field has been dealing with interference coming from the right. And that's

00:34:18.780 not to say that all conservatives have an issue with sex research, but I think when it's your own side,

00:34:23.900 it's a bit disorienting because, um, my colleagues are not used to dealing with it coming from their own

00:34:30.780 side or they don't see it as, as much of a threat. And, and there's an assumption there that it's not

00:34:36.780 as serious and it's going to go away. Eventually it's not, it's not going to actually gain any momentum,

00:34:41.820 but that's definitely not the case. I mean, this is how we ended up where we are right now. And I,

00:34:46.540 I definitely don't blame, I don't blame again, scientists for this because they're busy. They've got

00:34:52.780 a million things going on and who, who could have predicted this. And I'm very blessed to be in a

00:34:56.940 position where I can actually call this out because if I were still affiliated with a scientific

00:35:02.140 organization or an academic institution, I definitely would have, would have lost my job

00:35:06.780 as a result of that. But I do, I do wish that, um, more scientists were willing to speak up about it

00:35:13.260 because I mean, it's not going to get better until they do. Yeah. It seems like these sort of ideology

00:35:20.060 just keeps growing and growing and growing. Like to be honest, the first time I ever really remember

00:35:24.700 hearing about the pronouns debate was with Jordan Peterson. And then what happened to Lindsay

00:35:29.980 Shepard, who now works with me at True North. And I kind of remember thinking, okay, it's sort of

00:35:35.900 weird to use they, I don't, I can't, I can't really picture myself doing that just because it doesn't

00:35:41.500 make sense like grammatically and it's confusing. But then when I started looking into, I realized,

00:35:46.460 okay, it's not just about like using she to describe a trans woman or, or he or they,

00:35:53.500 it's like, they have even more terms that are basically words I've never heard of before.

00:35:58.300 Like people that want to identify as G or J or something like that. And I've heard you say that

00:36:03.660 you're, you're happy to use people's preferred pronouns, which is just sort of like the polite

00:36:07.660 thing to do. And I think most people agree, but do you draw a line? Like, would you use someone's

00:36:12.540 pronoun if they, if they asked you to refer to them as, as G or J or one of these sort of words that

00:36:18.540 didn't exist in the, in English vocabulary, like a couple of years ago?

00:36:23.580 I, as a, I've thought about this and I definitely have no issue using binary pronouns for a trans

00:36:28.540 person who would identify as the opposite sex. I don't have an issue with using they,

00:36:33.740 although I do criticize the non-binary movement and we can talk about that in terms of why I think

00:36:39.820 there, we need to have, there should be a more clear conversation around the non-binary

00:36:44.620 friend, if I can call it that. But even for the, the pronouns that, you know, are, are maybe not

00:36:54.540 he, she, or they, I will still use them. I think if that's what someone would like me to use,

00:36:59.580 I do try to be respectful. I think in many cases though, when it starts moving to that direction,

00:37:04.940 it's a bit more about trying to signal yourself as being different or an individual.

00:37:10.060 And it worries me when this sort of language is now being

00:37:19.100 backed by again, medical literature, scientific literature, when there's no science to back it up,

00:37:26.380 something like someone who's, someone who's a transgender, but a binary sex that's backed by

00:37:33.020 research. You know, gender dysphoria is backed by research, something like identifying as a third gender.

00:37:39.580 I mean, there's so many beyond just non-binary. I mean, beyond say, I mean, the most common ones

00:37:45.820 would probably be gender fluid, gender queer. I generally don't like to use the word queer

00:37:51.500 because I still consider that to be a slur against gay people. Agender, bigender. I mean, all of these

00:37:58.780 terms have no basis in science. I think in many cases it's, there are other issues going on with the

00:38:04.220 individual. Um, you know, I've spoken before about how I think in many cases, it's either gay people

00:38:10.220 who have experienced homophobia and they are not comfortable with being gay, or they're in many

00:38:14.620 cases, young women who do not want to identify as female. And as, as critical as I've been with of

00:38:20.780 feminism, I do think on some level, sexism does exist. Um, I think it's an individual's choice,

00:38:26.300 what they choose to do with those experiences and whether it's going to be something that's going to

00:38:29.740 shape you or something you say, uh, is going to motivate you to just overcome obstacles in your

00:38:35.500 life. But I do think, especially for young women who experienced maybe negative, um, interactions

00:38:41.100 with people as a result of being female, they will identify now as non-binary or as a trans man,

00:38:47.500 because they don't want to experience that. They don't want to be female. Uh, and in other cases,

00:38:53.180 I think it's people just trying to signal that they're progressive and it's considered ahead of the

00:38:58.780 curve to some extent, or it's a way of, of fitting in with your peers. I guess if all your peers are

00:39:05.340 identifying as a third gender, if you identify as male or female, that's considered antiquated.

00:39:11.980 So that, yeah, that's basically my thoughts on that. Yeah. It's sort of just a trendy sort of way to

00:39:18.780 signal that you're interesting and different and woke or something like that. All right. Let's see,

00:39:23.980 let's get into your criticism about non-binary. I, I, uh, it sort of reminds me a little bit of

00:39:29.180 in, uh, Douglas Murray's latest book, The Madness of Crowds. He talks about some of the tensions within

00:39:33.980 the LGBTQ community and how they don't necessarily have a lot in common. And I think that you picked up

00:39:40.140 on that and kind of went a lot deeper, uh, with some of the kind of inherent contradictions, like

00:39:46.460 the idea that being trans would be transitioning from male to female, which kind of implies that there's

00:39:52.540 just two genders, but then bringing in this whole concept of being non-binary and, and being a

00:39:58.620 spectrum and you can be male one day and female the next, and it just depends on, on your feelings.

00:40:05.500 It sort of undermines the whole idea of, of being trans or transitioning. Maybe we can

00:40:10.940 expand on that a little more. Sure. I mean, I absolutely love Douglas Murray. I think he's amazing.

00:40:16.380 Um, so with this tension you see with trans people who are, uh, who have transitioned to a binary

00:40:25.340 sex, so they go from one to the other, they will say, I don't have much in common with people who

00:40:31.180 identify as non-binary because they are, they aren't the same. But, um, I think part of also what it is

00:40:37.580 with this non-binary movement is it's for people to get some sort of, um, social currency in terms of

00:40:46.860 victimization or some sort of oppression. Um, so they will lump themselves into the trans community.

00:40:54.940 And we see this happening more and more now when, when people refer to trans, it's not just about

00:40:59.500 people who have transitioned to a binary sex. It's now beginning to include non-binary people,

00:41:06.620 gender non-conforming people, and they're not the same. These are two different groups. I mean,

00:41:11.740 the underlying etiologies is very different. And so, like you're saying, I mean, and I say this in

00:41:17.740 the book, if gender is fluid and can change throughout the day or within the hour, as some

00:41:24.060 people claim it does for them, how is that not an argument against transitioning? Because for someone

00:41:29.820 who is unhappy with their birth sex, why not, why can they not then be told, just wait it out until

00:41:36.060 you feel differently, which I don't agree with. I do think, like I said, transitioning can be helpful

00:41:41.020 for adults. Um, and also for non-binary people in many cases, they don't, when they're, they're

00:41:46.860 quote unquote transition, they don't really do much besides take on new pronouns and maybe change

00:41:52.460 their haircut and clothing. It's not like for someone who's say transgender and transitioning to a binary

00:41:59.100 sex where they will undergo medical interventions. Um, it's not something like, there's definitely

00:42:04.380 more of, um, an investment there. And I think also, um, um, an emotional investment in terms of

00:42:10.380 you are, you are now living as the opposite sex. This is not something like non-binary people. It just

00:42:16.540 seems like it's like a fun thing that they're doing when you, when you hear them talk about it.

00:42:20.860 And I find that I'm not transgender, but I would find that I think disrespectful

00:42:24.860 for someone who has transitioned and undergone, you know, in some cases, very, a very challenging

00:42:31.340 path. So yeah, there, there's definitely more of a tension within the community. And I think people

00:42:37.580 are rightful to be skeptical of it because now if you criticize the non-binary movement,

00:42:42.300 you get called transphobic. And I think this has nothing to do with trans people.

00:42:45.900 Well, yeah, it's interesting. Cause obviously if, if you are trans or if you're intersex and then

00:42:52.380 decide to transition, it's a huge life-changing, all encompassing thing. Um, and so then to see

00:42:59.180 someone else who's sort of flippant about it and like, it's like a fun trend. I mean, it's like good

00:43:04.060 for them to have that attitude towards it, but at the same time, I can totally see how it, how it is

00:43:10.060 disrespectful. Let's get into what I thought was the sort of meat of the book that my, my favorite

00:43:15.580 chapter anyway, was about, um, children, uh, with gender dysphoria and whether or not they should

00:43:21.980 transition. And so I think you said in the book that you once supported, uh, transitioning for

00:43:27.660 children, I think based on the logic that, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but if, if you, if you

00:43:33.260 have a child who knows at an early age that they want to be the other sex or the other gender, I should

00:43:38.220 say, um, that allowing them to go through puberty is irreversible and that, uh, it can stop them

00:43:45.420 from becoming who they want to be essentially. So if you, if you transition pre-puberty, then that

00:43:50.860 would prevent that them from having to go through the awkward stage of going through puberty in what

00:43:55.580 they think is the wrong, the wrong body or the wrong sex. Um, but that you, you change your mind

00:44:01.340 about that. Maybe you can explain that better than I can, but, but what, what, what is your,

00:44:04.620 what is your, uh, take on, on children and, and transitioning?

00:44:08.860 Right. So I did, I used to believe that, um, early transitioning was the best way forward

00:44:16.060 for kids with gender dysphoria, because it's superficially made sense to me that if you have

00:44:20.380 this child who is really, really struggling, um, why wouldn't you want to help them in that way?

00:44:26.460 And especially to undergo, um, medical interventions that would help prevent, um, them having changes to

00:44:34.860 their body that would be otherwise irreversible and would make it more difficult for them to live

00:44:40.060 as the opposite sex. So that was my superficial understanding. And then once I started reading

00:44:45.580 the research literature, I realized that, uh, again, you know, all these, the vast majority of

00:44:51.340 these children are going to desist. They're not, no longer going to be gender dysphoric by puberty.

00:44:56.860 Usually what happens is they grow comfortable in their body. They start having crushes

00:45:01.020 on their peers and they, they actually are quite happy. Um, so for the kids who persist,

00:45:06.940 I do think they should be allowed to begin on, um, you know, whatever interventions are seen as

00:45:13.180 appropriate for them. I don't do clinical work anymore. I don't work with these children,

00:45:17.020 but I think a good clinician would say, um, that that would be an appropriate course. However, it's

00:45:23.820 next to impossible nowadays for clinicians to do their jobs properly in that way, in terms of assessing

00:45:29.900 whether transitioning will be beneficial for a child who has reached puberty. Um, I would say even

00:45:35.740 in the case of adults, I think it's extremely difficult for clinicians to even, um, do a proper

00:45:41.660 assessment, um, for, for people with gender dysphoria who are, you know, well into an age where

00:45:47.980 they can make these kinds of decisions because often there are other issues going on, um, that can lead to

00:45:53.660 them feeling unhappy about their gender. But with regard to, uh, the children and my change in my

00:45:59.020 understanding. So the other thing is people will often say that a social transition is harmless

00:46:05.100 and that it's easily reversible. And all you're doing is letting the kid wear whatever clothes

00:46:09.420 they want, play with the toys they want. That's not true because you are actually treating that child

00:46:13.900 as though they are the opposite sex. I am totally in favor in parents of parents letting their kids

00:46:19.420 play with whatever toys they want and having friends of the opposite sex and being, you know, gender

00:46:25.900 non-conforming that doesn't require them to live as the opposite sex because a social transition

00:46:31.820 is associated with persistence. It's associated with going on and taking puberty blockers. Puberty

00:46:38.300 blockers are associated with cross-sex hormones, you know, going on down the line. So it's not true.

00:46:44.700 It's not factually accurate to say that a social transition is, is easy to reverse or that it's,

00:46:50.460 it's harmless because I mean, this is what parents are being told. I don't blame them for

00:46:56.140 obviously believing the professionals who are telling them this, but if you actually sit and

00:47:00.700 read the studies and document all of this, and I have all of the citations in the book,

00:47:05.660 it's, it's just not true.

00:47:07.980 Well, again, it's, it's just really interesting because I mean, you're dealing with little kids,

00:47:12.460 right? So they don't, they don't know what they're going to feel three, four years down the road.

00:47:17.340 They can't kind of wrap their head around the idea of like how this could affect their body

00:47:23.020 going forward, whether it affects their ability to have children or their ability to change their

00:47:27.500 mind. That's when it gets like really dicey. And I think a lot of parents out there are rightfully

00:47:31.820 concerned that it is an ideology that's, that's, that's being pushed. And if you can help break

00:47:38.060 down the numbers a little bit, like just how prevalent is this sort of phenomenon? I'm talking

00:47:43.580 about transgenderism. Do we, do we know like what percentage of people fall into this category?

00:47:49.980 Well, in terms of the adult population in the US, um, six in a thousand people identify as

00:47:58.060 transgender. So this is a number that has doubled in the last 10 years with regards to children. So

00:48:03.980 previously referrals to gender clinics have been predominantly for, uh, boys. So little boys who are

00:48:10.940 very feminine, but there's been a switch now and it's predominantly now, uh, for children born female. We can

00:48:18.780 talk a bit about rapid onset gender dysphoria as well, because that's another phenomenon that is

00:48:24.060 really worrisome to me because you do, we are seeing this huge influx of young women who are very

00:48:29.420 suddenly wanting to transition to male or a third gender. Um, when in many cases, their issues are not,

00:48:35.900 they have nothing to do with gender then. And also with, um, with regards to the issue of, of clinicians

00:48:42.300 not being able to do their job here in Canada, we have bill C eight that criminalizes any therapeutic

00:48:50.220 interventions that do not facilitate early transitioning. So essentially any child who

00:48:57.580 is gender dysphoric or at all uncomfortable in their body, if they go to a mental health professional,

00:49:03.260 they will be given the, they'll be facilitated in transitioning. There's no alternative there.

00:49:10.060 Um, who wants to face potentially five years in prison for doing it, doing good clinical work?

00:49:16.140 I mean, very few people are going to take that risk. I think if anyone, so, um, that's only going

00:49:22.780 to add to these numbers. So maybe you can break down that bill a little bit. Cause I think maybe

00:49:28.700 most people aren't too familiar with it, but the idea is to ban conversion therapy. Is that right?

00:49:33.740 Right. Well, they're mass, so they're calling it conversion therapy. I do not support

00:49:38.380 any therapeutic events, uh, interventions that seek to change sexual orientation. So conversion

00:49:43.980 therapy used to mean attempts to change someone's sexual orientation. And that does not work because

00:49:49.100 as I write in the book, sexual orientation is biological. It cannot be changed. It's immutable.

00:49:55.500 Gender identity is not the same as sexual orientation because especially for young children,

00:50:00.300 the way they feel about their gender can change with their development. So it's not appropriate to

00:50:06.860 say that, um, not to, to call any therapeutic attempts at reconciling one's gender or the way a

00:50:15.900 person, a child feels in their birth sex to call that conversion therapy because it's not the same,

00:50:20.540 but I think it's, it's very clever marketing on the part of these activists because they know,

00:50:25.580 they know that most people are not in favor of conversion therapy for sexual orientation.

00:50:30.300 It's unethical. And so they've tacked on the gender identity aspect of it to, to this broader

00:50:37.020 idea. And so, I mean, even in, in my work, people, when they see that I am opposed to

00:50:44.380 conversion, so-called conversion therapy for gender identity, they are, they're a bit taken

00:50:48.380 aback because to them, that's hateful. And then once you explain to them, no, it's not the same as

00:50:53.100 sexual orientation. And in fact, what you see happening. So for these kids who are gender dysphoric,

00:50:59.260 who identify more as the opposite sex, if they are facilitated in transitioning, they, so as I

00:51:05.660 mentioned, most of these kids would grow up to be gay if they transition. So if you have a little boy

00:51:10.300 who is very feminine, who is going to grow up to be attracted to men, if he transitions to female,

00:51:16.380 when she grew up, grows up, she's going to appear to be a straight woman because she's going to be a

00:51:21.340 woman attracted to men. So the really hypocritical and unfortunate thing is, is essentially this ban

00:51:29.660 is conversion therapy, in my mind, because you are taking these children and you're making them

00:51:34.140 straight by putting them, them down a course of transitioning, they're going to look heterosexual

00:51:38.620 in adulthood. But I don't think, I don't think the politicians have thought about this. I don't think

00:51:44.300 they necessarily care. I think it's really just about what seems to be the quote unquote,

00:51:49.260 right thing to say in this climate. So the children will pay a price for that, unfortunately.

00:51:55.260 It's so sad that little kids have to go through this. Just to pick up on something that you said,

00:52:00.460 though, so your sort of scientific opinion is that sexual orientation is biological. So that would be

00:52:08.060 like, like the nurture nature debate, it's entirely based on nature, like Lady Gaga, I was born this way,

00:52:15.420 kind of thing. And so you would oppose any kind of therapy that someone would go to to try to try to

00:52:21.820 to change that, that is totally immutable that you can't that you can't change it. What about someone

00:52:26.300 though, who is like bisexual, or someone who was gay, but didn't want to be gay? I mean, you would oppose

00:52:31.660 like, like, like therapy for them even as an adult or just for children?

00:52:38.380 Well, see, this is the thing I get, I don't like the idea of the government coming in and telling

00:52:43.340 people what they especially adults telling them what they can or can't do, I would say, in my

00:52:49.260 understanding of the scientific research, and no chapter four of the book is dedicated to this,

00:52:53.420 that sexual orientation cannot be changed. So if someone is uncomfortable with being gay or bisexual,

00:53:01.740 I would say the best way for them would be maybe to speak to a therapist about why they're

00:53:08.300 uncomfortable about that, and maybe find ways of learning to accept that and appreciate that about

00:53:13.900 themselves and not feel like they have to change that. I mean, I understand and I write in the book

00:53:19.100 about how I grew up in the gay community. And I see, I still see the the discrimination that gay

00:53:24.780 people face. But you know, it's one of those things, it's just it's not, it's not effective.

00:53:30.460 If you do, there are some practitioners who do still practice conversion therapy for sexual orientation,

00:53:37.420 which makes me very, very uncomfortable. I would just really advise against going down

00:53:43.260 in that direction, because it's not going to work, I think it will cause more harm than good.

00:53:49.100 Fair enough. Yeah, I would I would just sort of feel uncomfortable with the government saying,

00:53:53.020 you can or cannot have this kind of therapy, if that's what you want. I mean, if say you were

00:53:57.820 bisexual, and you were attracted to both, you're a man who was attracted to both men and women,

00:54:03.020 but you chose that you wanted to have a traditional family and be a father and stuff like, you know,

00:54:08.620 you could you could go to therapy to help you. And that's not something that the government should

00:54:13.100 interject with. But then the idea that the same logic is applied to trans children who are clearly

00:54:18.940 going through something, a major, you know, life issue. It just seems crazy that the government

00:54:24.780 would tell you that you cannot engage in in therapy without going down the path of transitioning,

00:54:30.940 which is what I understand is the case now. Right. And I mean, in terms of bans for conversion

00:54:37.900 therapy for sexual orientation for children, I mean, I think I have less of an issue if the government were

00:54:42.700 to do that, because one, it is more based in science. And also because young children especially

00:54:48.620 can't necessarily advocate for themselves. So if they do have a parent, say, I mean, parents,

00:54:54.460 I think are quite intuitive, they get a sense if they have a gender nonconforming child, there's a

00:54:58.540 chance that child's going to grow up to be gay. And that bothers some parents. And so they will, you

00:55:02.860 know, this is, we've seen this in the past, where parents will take their kids to these practitioners

00:55:08.140 to try and convert them to be more gender conforming and to be straight, which I do not agree with.

00:55:12.860 I always want to emphasize, I don't agree with that. But I have less, it makes me less uncomfortable.

00:55:17.100 I have less of an issue if, say, there were policy in place to prevent that from happening,

00:55:21.740 because kids can't, they can't, you know, if a parent makes that decision for them, they really

00:55:28.540 are, don't have much of recourse. But I think as, you know, for adults, it's a little bit more

00:55:35.660 concerning to me. And also with especially Bill C8, it's not scientific. I mean, that's ultimately

00:55:40.380 what it comes down to. Scientists should be consulted on this. Not, not activists.

00:55:48.860 Absolutely. So yeah, you have a situation where a lot of parents are really terrified,

00:55:53.340 because they might have a child who is gender nonconforming, like you say, or maybe just some

00:55:59.660 of their friends, like you talked about in your book, about, and you just brought it up to about

00:56:05.340 rapid onset gender dysphoria, and how it can happen. I mean, I know someone who the child goes

00:56:10.780 to a small private school, and like half the kids in the class identify as, as, you know, by non-binary,

00:56:17.740 or they're transitioning, or they're trans. And it's like, how can you look at that situation and

00:56:21.900 not see it as the environment that the child is in, where they're being encouraged to explore this,

00:56:28.300 or being led down that path by someone who is ideological. And so parents are stuck in this

00:56:34.460 position where they just don't know what to do. Is that something that you've sort of encountered?

00:56:39.180 And maybe you can speak to, to that to concern parents who obviously love your children and want

00:56:43.900 the best for them, but worry about an ideology that that could potentially have terrible impact

00:56:50.540 on the rest of their life. I've had so many parents reach out to me about this issue, both before the

00:56:57.260 book came out. And since the book has come out, since the book has come out, I've been blown away by the

00:57:01.340 number of parents and family members who have reached out to me. It's really, really sad.

00:57:05.340 You know, I really feel for them because they're in a position where they really are at a loss,

00:57:11.500 because they're, if they are skeptical of their child wanting to transition, they're called all

00:57:16.140 kinds of hateful names. Now we see, you know, legal policy is in favor of, of allowing the child to,

00:57:22.300 to basically transition. And I mean, I know, I know the truth is going to come out. I know what's around the

00:57:30.860 corner. It's going to be devastating. And, um, it's difficult for me to, I find of the parents

00:57:39.900 that I talked to, some of them are very much aware of this and they're, they're skeptical rightfully.

00:57:45.420 There are other parents who go along with it. They're skeptical, but they also feel they don't

00:57:49.740 have a choice. And so that chapter that you mentioned chapter five, which is about gender

00:57:54.780 transitioning children. I document, you know, all the advice that I would give to parents because

00:57:59.660 I've had parents reach out to me sometimes when I would, when I used to do speaking engagements,

00:58:03.580 they would come up and ask me questions at the end. And it's very difficult. I don't feel it's

00:58:08.060 appropriate for me to tell a parent what they should or shouldn't do with their particular child,

00:58:12.300 because, you know, in these cases, I've never met the child. I don't know the parents. And I also know

00:58:16.380 that parenting decisions are very personal, but, um, yeah, in the book, I do go through, you know,

00:58:21.980 there are a number of things that activist groups will say, or even medical professionals will say

00:58:27.900 to try to sway a parent in one direction or another. Um, things like saying your child is

00:58:33.980 at a higher risk of suicide, or they will commit suicide if they don't transition saying that this

00:58:38.700 is due to greater social acceptance, which really doesn't make sense because why is it we're seeing

00:58:42.460 this predominantly in adolescent girls who are not gender non-conforming for the most part. Most of them

00:58:48.380 are very female typical up until even days before they announced that they want to transition.

00:58:53.260 So yeah, that, that, I'm not sure if that answers your question, but that's, that's been my take

00:58:59.340 on it when I step back a bit. Well, it's, it's really interesting because I think you're getting

00:59:04.780 at that. There's, I mean, obviously, you know, when you're going through puberty, when a child's going

00:59:09.500 through puberty, their body's changing, it's confusing and they feel uncomfortable. And so if you,

00:59:15.500 if you take a little girl who's feeling uncomfortable with, with her puberty, and then at the same time,

00:59:21.100 she's socially awkward, or perhaps she's on the autism spectrum somehow, it's like,

00:59:27.580 these are all things that are pushing someone towards wanting to go down that route of being

00:59:33.500 trans. But it's like, you know, what, what, what happens a couple of years later when they grow out

00:59:37.980 of it, and it's irreversible. So maybe we can talk a little bit about some of those cases that we're now

00:59:43.740 seeing, where someone has transitioned, and now they want to go back and detransition or they

00:59:50.140 experience regret is how prevalent is that? We don't yet know the numbers in terms of this newer

00:59:57.820 wave, the more in terms of what has been documented in research, about 2% of people detransition. But

01:00:05.580 again, this, the data for that study were collected years ago. So it's, it doesn't really apply to the

01:00:12.380 young women that, and that we're seeing right now who are rushing to transition. But I, I definitely

01:00:18.700 think it's going to be higher than 2%. We're seeing, you know, even in the UK, hundreds and hundreds of

01:00:23.020 these girls are coming out in one county alone. And in a lot of cases, they're saying, I am on the

01:00:29.020 autism spectrum. I'm lesbian. I just feel different. I don't feel like I'm a typical girl. In many cases,

01:00:35.580 they aren't extremely feminine. So they believe that means that they must really be a man. And as

01:00:41.100 you're saying, you know, puberty brings upon these changes. And for some of these girls, even the fact

01:00:45.580 that they get periods, they don't like the fact that they get a period every month. And so they think

01:00:49.660 that means they must be a man. And, you know, I see in the book very clearly, like, there are no woman

01:00:54.140 likes getting her period. That's just an inherent part of being a woman. That doesn't mean you're not a woman.

01:00:58.460 And it doesn't mean that it's not amazing to be women. And, and I just, I can't believe that no

01:01:03.420 one is saying this to these, these girls, or, you know, developing breasts, the double mastectomies

01:01:08.700 are becoming so common now for, for young women who are identifying as male or who identify as a

01:01:17.660 third gender. And I think it's, you know, I, my breasts are small, but of my girlfriends who have

01:01:23.660 larger breasts, they will tell me that they, they hated their breasts when they first started developing

01:01:27.980 that was very uncomfortable. That is something that they had to adjust to. And I, I, you know,

01:01:33.740 once it's not as simple as having the surgery and then simply getting, um, implants later,

01:01:40.780 if that's what you decide, it's not the same. They sell it as though it's the same. They tell the

01:01:45.420 parents it's the same, it's easily reversible. It's not the same. And, and as for these young women

01:01:50.940 who are D transitioners. Um, so they were born female, they identified as male or through gender,

01:01:55.980 and now they've gone back to, to identifying as female. They will say, I wish that medical

01:02:01.420 professionals had asked me these questions. I wish they had not taken what I had said at face value.

01:02:06.380 In some cases, these girls are getting prescriptions for testosterone after one, one hour appointments.

01:02:12.700 They don't, the, you know, the practitioners do not do a proper assessment. They don't do any sort of

01:02:19.740 history. It's just, um, it's a mess. It's really a mess. And, and I really feel for these girls.

01:02:27.340 And why, why aren't they get getting proper assessments? Is it because the ideology is so

01:02:32.380 prevalent that people who, by the time a child comes in to, to talk to a, uh, you know, presumably,

01:02:38.700 you know, a trained professional, um, that, that, that is just assumed that they are

01:02:43.660 the trans person or why, why, why aren't they getting the right advice here?

01:02:48.540 Because even the doctors believe that if they don't facilitate transitioning right away,

01:02:54.300 that their patient is going to commit suicide. They they've, they've been intimidated. And I think

01:02:59.260 to some extent, misled by activist groups that really are pushing this narrative. And this is not to

01:03:05.820 say that I, you know, I don't think I do believe gender dysphoria is, uh, you know, a legitimate

01:03:12.300 condition. And I have a lot of empathy for people who are struggling with their gender. I think it

01:03:16.940 should be taken seriously, but I don't think the, the response to that is to go completely in this

01:03:24.220 opposite direction because gatekeeping has been an issue in the past for trans people where they can't

01:03:28.700 get access to the interventions and the care that they need and deserve. But now we've gone so far in the

01:03:34.860 opposite direction where it's very much whatever someone says goes. And in many cases, this is not

01:03:40.540 going to be the best case as we're the best outcome as we're already seeing for these individuals.

01:03:46.620 You're right. It seems like it's sort of coming from a place of, of kindness and trying to

01:03:51.180 accommodate people that are different, but it, you know, it's definitely seems like the, the spectrum

01:03:56.860 has swung so far. It's so easy to transition. It's so easy to change your gender. I don't know if you

01:04:01.740 remember a few years ago, Lauren Southern officially changed her gender. All she had to do was go into

01:04:07.020 a doctor's office and claim that she had wanted to be a boy. And then that it was that, it was that

01:04:12.380 easy. It was like, she did it in an afternoon. And I mean, obviously she's an adult, but, um, one of

01:04:18.220 the things you talked about in your book as well, and you just brought it up with suicide is, is that

01:04:22.860 that's something that's sort of almost being used to threaten parents. Like, you know, wouldn't,

01:04:27.580 wouldn't you rather have a happy, uh, transgender little girl than a dead boy, which to me is like,

01:04:33.900 as a parent, it's like the most evil thing you can say to a parent, that kind of guilt,

01:04:37.260 like as if a parent doesn't care already. And that is something that they would want. Like

01:04:41.900 no parent wants anything like that for, for their child. But what, what is, what is the data

01:04:47.100 surrounding suicide? Is it something that's, that's really a problem in the trans community?

01:04:51.260 Uh, well, there is one statistic, uh, the 41% statistic of saying that trans adults,

01:04:59.100 41% of trans adults have attempted suicide, um, which I think we should take seriously. I mean,

01:05:05.740 there, there are legitimate concerns there. Um, but I, I don't think, especially when it comes to

01:05:11.820 the issue of whether children should be transitioning or not, it's not appropriate to take a statistic that

01:05:16.860 pertains to adults and to apply that to children. Uh, that particular study, the researchers also

01:05:23.580 mentioned how, um, they did not ask whether the individual was experiencing issues with their

01:05:29.660 gender at the time of their suicide attempt. So we don't even know that, um, their suicide attempt

01:05:36.220 had anything to do with gender dysphoria. Um, there's also, you know, likelihood that there was

01:05:42.300 comorbidity we don't know, but there, you know, one study showed that as many as 60% of people with

01:05:47.980 gender dysphoria have some other psychiatric comorbidity. Um, I understand why people don't

01:05:54.060 want to talk about these things because then it can be used in some cases for people to dismiss the

01:05:59.580 concerns of someone who is, who has gender dysphoria to say this person is just mentally ill,

01:06:04.140 or they don't know what they're talking about. I don't agree with that, but I do think we have to,

01:06:08.460 again, look at this from a fact-based perspective, because if someone is struggling with

01:06:11.980 something else and it's being expressed as gender, but it's not actually about their gender,

01:06:17.020 well, if they transition, they're not going to feel better after it's not going to take care

01:06:20.940 of whatever it is that they're struggling with. And, um, so yeah, definitely that suicide narrative is

01:06:27.660 being used to emotionally blackmail parents. I don't blame the parents who, who allow their child

01:06:33.340 to transition as a result of being told that, because I think that's what any parent would do.

01:06:38.060 Um, but it's, that's definitely been a very powerful, I think tool in terms of why,

01:06:44.860 why this has become so prevalent and, and also that mental health professionals and doctors

01:06:50.700 don't want to be called transphobic because they have to worry about that too. They have to worry

01:06:54.780 about potentially losing their license if they don't facilitate this, but they also have to worry about

01:06:59.260 activist groups going after them and saying that they're hateful and transphobic. Um, it's not a good

01:07:04.300 look for them either. So, uh, it, yeah, it's just, it's just completely inappropriate. The fact

01:07:09.900 that children, I feel they're being used in this way to further a particular agenda.

01:07:15.580 Well, and it's like a minefield trying to navigate it because again, most people,

01:07:19.740 most people out there just, you know, decent people, they want to do the right thing. They

01:07:23.500 don't want anyone to suffer. They want equal rights and they want everyone to be protected and everyone

01:07:28.060 to feel included. But then, you know, at some point it's like, well, wait a minute. I mean, this,

01:07:33.660 this is just not right. And, and like you say, for both, uh, little girls and little boys that

01:07:41.420 want to transition at that moment, you know, if, if, if you just wait, that, that, that phase might

01:07:47.260 change. It might turn out to be, like you said that I think, I think you said that most males who want

01:07:55.020 to transition, if they don't, they just end up kind of becoming comfortable and becoming gay men.

01:08:00.140 So the idea of forcing them to transition would be sort of a slight against gay men or, or saying

01:08:07.420 that it's not okay to be gay. So you see a homophobia come into that as well. Um, what are, are there any

01:08:13.980 other sort of, um, clashes that you see between these different groups or is that sort of the main one?

01:08:20.140 I would, I want to add actually with regards to gay men, I've had so many gay men reach out to me

01:08:24.700 over the years saying that they thought about transitioning and they read an article or they

01:08:31.180 saw a video of me talking and they decided to wait. And now they're happy that they did because they're

01:08:35.180 happy as gay men and they're out to everyone in their life. And so that means a lot to me when I

01:08:39.660 hear that, because it, it gives me some reassurance that I'm doing the right thing. Cause I do try to,

01:08:44.940 to step back every once in a while and ask myself, am I still making sense? You know, I obviously don't

01:08:49.420 want to make life more difficult for, for the trans community or for anyone who is experiencing

01:08:54.700 gender dysphoria. Um, but in terms of that tension, I mean, I, I'm always amazed when I see

01:09:03.500 how shall I say this gay men who are, you know, very open about being gay, but they will defend

01:09:11.260 childhood transitioning. Um, there are a number of public figures who have done this. And I just think,

01:09:15.660 uh, I don't know if they realize what they're doing or how harmful it is. I think in many cases,

01:09:22.460 maybe these individuals have forgotten how much they are like these kids, because for many, um,

01:09:27.420 especially boys with gender dysphoria, when they grow up, they forget like research has shown that

01:09:31.340 they will forget that they once wanted to be girls when they were young. So maybe that's it. I think at

01:09:37.020 best, but, uh, you know, I have a line in the book talking about how this, I'm amazed because it is

01:09:41.820 leading to essentially the extermination of gay children. And it's like these gay adults don't

01:09:45.820 seem to have a problem with that. They, I don't think they represent most in the gay community

01:09:49.500 because I have, I have many people, trans adults and gay adults who reach out to me saying they

01:09:53.900 agree with me, but it's at the end of the day, I think it comes down to individuals who are really

01:09:59.740 looking to build their own platforms and get social accolades and move their career forward. And so

01:10:08.060 they really don't care at the end of the day, who gets pushed under the bus as a result.

01:10:12.940 It'll be interesting to sort of keep an eye on the LGBT. I don't know what, it feels like the

01:10:19.100 letters are constantly changing or they're always adding new ones or depending on whether you're

01:10:23.180 reading something that's Canadian or American, they have like different letters at the end, but

01:10:27.820 the sort of tensions between them. Cause I know you talked a little bit in the book about,

01:10:30.860 um, feminism and how sort of, there's a big divide between, uh, you know, whether or not a trans,

01:10:40.380 someone who transitions to become a woman can actually be a woman, obviously biologically,

01:10:44.460 they can't, but then, you know, they're able to, you can't even say that now though.

01:10:48.380 Okay. Well, I, I mean, I, I, I, I wouldn't be afraid of it, but yeah, I, I get, I get that

01:10:54.060 like a lot of people get canceled just for making that very basic statement that, I mean, even,

01:10:59.100 you know, biologically, it's almost like a, an obvious statement, but it's, it's politically

01:11:04.300 controversial these days. But I think one of the things that I would be concerned about, and

01:11:09.260 this is sort of starting to happen more and more where you see a trans person in a woman's locker room,

01:11:14.940 and it's just sort of weird. And a lot of women feel uncomfortable about it, but they're afraid

01:11:19.340 to speak out. And it's like, you know, the idea that we have women only spaces supposed to be to

01:11:24.460 protect women, you know, if you're, if you're changing in after, after going to the gym or

01:11:29.260 something like that. Um, and, and a concern could be, especially if there's little, little girls in

01:11:33.420 there. Uh, but, but then I think there's another issue, Deborah, which is, uh, sports and, and, and women

01:11:39.660 who, you know, want to play like competitive soccer. Um, but they have to compete against

01:11:45.100 someone who is biologically male, you know, whose transition. And one of the things I think was

01:11:50.780 interesting was supposed to be the Tokyo Olympics coming up. They, they had a new statement, a new

01:11:55.420 policy on transgender athletes where they were under, under some circumstances going to be able to

01:12:00.940 compete. And I think that that would have been pretty jarring for the public to see. And it would

01:12:05.100 have brought this debate much more into the forefront, but of course those Olympics got, uh,

01:12:09.260 postponed or canceled, but, um, maybe you can just quickly address the issue of, um, transgender

01:12:15.820 athletes and the sort of, uh, the, the tension between feminists and trans trans people.

01:12:23.900 Right. So I have that chapter talking about whether, uh, trans women are no different from women who were

01:12:31.580 born women. And I do in the chapter talk about differences, but I, I do want to emphasize that

01:12:36.300 I don't think those differences should be used to hold back trans rights. I don't think they should

01:12:40.860 be used to discriminate against trans people or trans women, but in some cases, no, these differences

01:12:46.700 are important. Like as you're mentioning in competitive sports or, you know, say I love mixed

01:12:50.780 martial arts. If they can have a serious consequences for competitors, if, if we overlook these differences,

01:12:57.980 it can feel, I mean, even when I talk about this issue, I feel it, it can be seen as insensitive

01:13:03.740 because it's as though we are saying to a trans person who they really are or how they should be

01:13:09.660 seen. And that's not my intention. Um, but again, I'm coming from a scientific perspective and saying,

01:13:14.700 if we ignore these differences, and I think most in the public know that these differences exist

01:13:22.060 to shut that down and pretend that they don't exist, you lose credibility and it alienates people from

01:13:26.860 the cause of wanting to advocate for trans rights and for equality. So with regards to sports, I mean,

01:13:32.860 it is so contentious. Like you're saying those guidelines for the Olympics, they were at last

01:13:38.220 reported still basically deciding what they were going to be because I guess it's so difficult to

01:13:43.980 come to an agreement because of, of how, how controversial it is. And I feel like I feel for them

01:13:49.980 because I think no matter what they do, people are, someone is going to get upset. Some group somewhere is

01:13:53.980 going to get upset and say either you didn't do enough or you've gone too far. Um, the tension

01:13:58.780 between feminists and trans activists. So it depends what kind of feminists because, um, radical feminists

01:14:04.620 are very skeptical of this idea that, uh, someone who is trans should be considered the opposite sex.

01:14:11.580 So I'm not a radical feminist. I don't want to speak for them, but in my understanding, someone who was

01:14:16.140 born male and identifies as female can never be female. They will always be male, which would be correct

01:14:22.860 from a, from a biologically speaking standpoint. I don't have an issue referring to a trans woman

01:14:29.180 as a woman or using, you know, she calling her, she using the name she'd like me to use. But again,

01:14:36.220 I, there are differences there. Um, whereas say for radical feminists, they, they very much say,

01:14:42.140 no, trans women are not women. So I don't agree with them in that. Um,

01:14:46.460 I think they're kind of like a different kind of woman. Like you, you can like, it's just hard to

01:14:54.860 say, like, it's almost like a case by case basis, but there are some men that you could just tell

01:14:59.900 their men, no, you know, no matter what they do, they're big, they, you know, they have broad shoulders

01:15:05.340 and just, you know, for someone like that, it's, it's hard to say, okay, that that person is going to be a

01:15:10.940 woman beat just because they transition. And I know obviously it's really difficult, but I just

01:15:17.340 have a hard time kind of roughing my head around the idea that, that someone who could be a large male

01:15:24.540 wanting to compete against women in sports, that's something that we should, that we should just say,

01:15:28.860 okay, that's, that's fine. Well, I would say, I mean, I understand where the, the concern is coming

01:15:35.740 from for people who say it should be fair because, um, you know, I don't necessarily felt the fault an

01:15:41.100 individual who may be physically larger, who may look a certain way because in some cases, maybe they,

01:15:47.020 they can't help that. But I guess it's because if we were to say you cannot compete with women, then

01:15:53.100 we're essentially telling them again, who they are and that they aren't really who they say they are.

01:15:57.180 But the other side of that, which, which I, you know, I argue in the book is that

01:16:01.180 it's not fair and it's not fair for, for, especially in competitive sports for

01:16:05.980 women who've in some cases have been working their entire lives for these opportunities.

01:16:10.220 And, and they're basically being told that they should just suck it up and work harder.

01:16:13.980 That's how can you, how can you say that to somebody? So, I mean, I feel this is one issue where

01:16:20.540 people are a little bit more willing to be vocal, you know, they'll be quiet about talking about

01:16:26.060 women's spaces or transitioning and children or gender neutral language. But sports is one area

01:16:33.900 where people get very, very upset and they say that is, they have a problem with this.

01:16:38.700 So I say, if you have a problem with it, it's good to speak up about it. And I think that guidelines

01:16:43.020 should be taken into account. You know, I get that for trans people, sport is not just about the

01:16:47.900 competitive aspect and about it being a meritocracy, but it's also about that sense of community.

01:16:52.780 And people, you know, in some cases just want to be able to go out and have fun and feel like

01:16:59.100 they're being recognized as they would like to be recognized and just get on with their business.

01:17:03.660 I think that's the average trans person. When you take it to the level of competitive sports and it's

01:17:07.900 becoming a political statement, that's a little bit different. But my, my general approach is that it

01:17:14.700 really depends on what realm we're speaking of. And I think sports are different from prison and that

01:17:19.100 should be different from say bathrooms or, um, you know, we, I also talk about

01:17:25.660 sexual preferences and our sexual preference is considered transphobic nowadays. So, um,

01:17:32.060 yeah, I, I just, I just think people should be less afraid to talk about this more broadly because I,

01:17:39.100 I feel like everyone is, is stepping is, is just afraid of being targeted next for saying the wrong

01:17:45.020 thing and everyone is terrified. And again, if you're, if you're coming from a fact-based perspective,

01:17:51.420 a lot of people are going to agree with you and they're going to tell you that they agree with you.

01:17:56.140 Absolutely. Well, you're definitely one of the people that do speak out about it. And I think

01:18:00.860 your book helps provide clarity because again, it's, it's, it's not only is it a confusing issue

01:18:06.940 because of all the terminology and the different sort of new words that are, a lot of them are really

01:18:11.260 ideological. Uh, but it's also new and, and it's not something that people were even exposed to a

01:18:16.620 couple of years ago. So a lot of people who might be intimidated by the issue, I think they could read

01:18:21.020 your book and, and, and, and learn a lot about it. I'll just ask you one final question, Deborah,

01:18:26.220 on the topic of your book. What, what, what do you see happening down the road? I mean, with kids

01:18:31.980 transitioning or being pushed towards it and, and, and sort of, you know, scientists being afraid of,

01:18:37.500 of, of, of putting out factual information. And so because of that, it's more inundated with

01:18:42.460 ideology and, and, and, and again, this is chill of cancel culture and political correctness. Like

01:18:47.740 where, where are we headed and what, what do you predict will happen in the next five years?

01:18:53.100 I think there's going to be a huge wave of children detransitioning. It's going to be really awful. And

01:18:59.580 I see a lot of the people who are pushing this right now, playing dumb and saying, oh, we had no idea

01:19:05.660 this was going to happen. This is so terrible. Who could have predicted this when those of us who

01:19:10.300 are calling it out are being called by them, uh, transphobic, we're being called hateful and bigoted.

01:19:16.780 So I really hope anyone that's been following this conversation, hold those people accountable when

01:19:21.820 that happens, because they're going to deflect the blame and, and pretend as though there was no

01:19:26.460 indication that this was, was coming. Um, I think for, you know, how children are being targeted with

01:19:33.180 education, they're being taught these ideas in their curriculum, they're going to be extremely

01:19:38.540 confused as they get older, because a lot of the ideas they're being told don't make any sense.

01:19:43.260 There's something very basic, like say in Ontario, the sex ed curriculum, and I am in favor of

01:19:48.220 comprehensive sex ed. I always want to make sure that I'm clear about that. My issue is when the gender

01:19:52.860 ideology starts coming in, comprehensive sex ed is actually more, uh, effective than abstinence

01:19:58.380 only sex education in terms of preventing, um, unwanted pregnancy and, and children, not children,

01:20:05.020 not children. I take that back, but young adults are more likely to use protection and make better

01:20:10.460 decisions about their sexual health with comprehensive sex ed. But the gender ideology has no business

01:20:16.220 being there. And, you know, they're, the kids are being taught things like sexual orientation and

01:20:21.100 gender identity, gender expression, and anatomy have nothing to do with one another. Um, and that,

01:20:26.460 like you were saying, sexual orientation is a spectrum, it's fluid, all these nonsensical ideas.

01:20:32.540 So as these kids get older, they're going to, they're not going to have any sort of realistic

01:20:36.780 understanding of the world around them or how to relate to other people because everything they've

01:20:41.020 been told is factually inaccurate. I have a chapter in the book dedicated to sex differences and sex and

01:20:46.460 dating. And I think this is, this is going to be even bigger of a problem because young people

01:20:51.420 especially have are so confused when it comes to if they're straight interacting with the opposite sex

01:20:57.580 and how a lot of this ideology is quite damaging. I think in terms of, um, how we relate to each other,

01:21:04.860 both not just in the bedroom, but just more broadly. And also I think science as a whole is,

01:21:10.780 has been taken hostage and that's only going to get worse because we see more and more activism is just

01:21:15.500 destroying these disciplines. All right. Well, I, I don't want to keep you much. One, one final

01:21:22.140 question. What did you have any advice for parents? So say, you know, your child is going through the

01:21:27.820 sex education and I agree with you that, that it's, it's more important to have sexual education than

01:21:33.340 allowing kids to kind of go find their own knowledge out on the internet or wherever, where it might not be

01:21:39.500 uh, very accurate. It's, it's, it's better to teach them in class, but obviously it needs to be based on,

01:21:44.860 on fact and not on ideology. Uh, so, you know, if, if, if a child is being taught something in school,

01:21:51.180 like, you know, the idea that the, that there's this gender unicorn that's coming from the UK schools

01:21:56.460 where they're teaching you that you can be any number of, of children or, uh, CBC kids had, had a story

01:22:02.460 that was talking about how JK Rowling was trans, uh, transphobic. I mean, when, when the ideology seeps

01:22:08.460 into, to, to teaching little kids as a parent, like what, what can you do if you see that happening

01:22:13.500 to your child in their school? I would say number one, be aware because in a lot of cases,

01:22:19.660 the parents don't even know, oh, this is what the kids are being taught. Sometimes it's not formally

01:22:24.300 documented because teachers from my understanding do have some wiggle room in terms of terms of what

01:22:29.020 they actually do want to teach the kids. So be aware. Um, and if it comes down to it, don't feel bad

01:22:36.140 about taking your kids out of those classes, keeping them home. I've had colleagues do that.

01:22:41.740 Um, another, one of the reasons I wrote the book is to offer parents a resource in terms of the

01:22:46.460 scientific studies showing exactly why these ideas are false. So something like, uh, gender is a spectrum.

01:22:53.900 If you go to the administration and say, this is not fact-based, they'll pull up materials from

01:22:58.540 activist groups and say, yes, it is because look at this is what, you know, they say is, is the newest

01:23:03.900 science quote unquote. So this is why we're teaching this. So as a parent, you can take the

01:23:08.460 studies in the, in my book and say, no, this is, this is why what you're teaching the kids is false

01:23:13.980 because otherwise you really have no way of combating it because they'll just say,

01:23:17.660 well, the newest science shows this. So this is, this is what we're going with.

01:23:21.100 Well, maybe they can pick up a copy of your book and, and bring that into the, uh,

01:23:26.540 into the schools. If, if they need to push back, uh, Dr. Deverso, it's been such a pleasure having you on,

01:23:31.900 uh, let me let our, let our viewers know where they can find you, where they can read your stuff

01:23:35.820 and, uh, where, where to go. I'm on Twitter at Dr. Deverso, and I'm on Instagram at Dr. Devera W. So

01:23:43.740 I write a monthly column for the Globe and Mail. Um, if you want to see all the different myths,

01:23:49.500 uh, in the end of gender, you can go to my website, which is Dr. Deverso.com slash book,

01:23:55.100 and you can get the end of gender on Amazon, Indigo, Barnes and Noble.

01:23:59.180 Great. Well, it's been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining the True North Speaker Series.

01:24:03.740 Thank you so much for having me.

Juno News - October 15, 2020

Ep. 16 ｜ Dr. Debora Soh ｜ Are we witnessing the end of gender？

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