Juno News - Ep. 9 ｜ Brian Lee Crowley ｜ What makes Canada great and why we should celebrate Sir John A Macdonald

00:00:00.040 Never forget that the way to judge any society, any group of human beings, is

00:00:06.680 not against some impossible ideal standard. You must judge people against

00:00:12.160 where they've come from, the efforts they've made to improve themselves, and

00:00:16.600 what the alternatives are. By any of those measures, Canada is a rare jewel in

00:00:23.280 human experience. We have every reason to be proud of Canada.

00:00:27.120 Canada is an extraordinary country, with a proud history and a promising future.

00:00:32.600 But our peaceful, pluralistic, free society did not pop up overnight. It was built and

00:00:37.940 preserved by past generations of Canadians and British North Americans who understood

00:00:43.040 the importance of the rule of law, tradition, liberty, and of course, peace, order, and good

00:00:49.620 governance. We cannot divorce our successful present society from our rich historical past.

00:00:55.960 That is why we must reject and combat modern efforts to erase our history, tear down statues,

00:01:02.820 rename streets and schools, and paint one-dimensional caricatures demonizing historical figures and past

00:01:09.920 events. My guest on today's special Dominion Day episode of the True North Speaker Series

00:01:15.320 is Dr. Brian Lee Crowley, Canada's foremost public intellectual and scholar on Canadian history and

00:01:21.760 public policy. Brian is the managing director of the Macdonald-Laurie Institute, Ottawa's most important

00:01:27.980 think tank. He's a frequent contributor and former editorial member of the Globe and Mail and the author

00:01:33.520 of several books, including The Canadian Century, Moving Out of America's Shadow, and my personal

00:01:38.660 favorite, Fearful Symmetry, The Fall and Rise of Canada's Founding Values.

00:01:43.620 Brian is a patriotic Canadian who has a deep understanding of what makes Canada great,

00:01:48.640 why we should celebrate our history, including our first Prime Minister, Sir John A. Macdonald,

00:01:53.620 and how we can recognize past injustices, have meaningful reconciliation with First Nations

00:01:59.380 peoples, and all the while remain proud, strong, vigilant, and patriotic Canadians.

00:02:07.040 In our conversation today, Brian and I discuss what makes Canada so unique and so great,

00:02:13.160 the many accomplishments of Sir John A. Macdonald, reasons to celebrate our history and early

00:02:18.640 years, and the building of the Canadian ideal, where rights, freedom, dignity, and justice are

00:02:24.360 extended and protected for each and every one of us. Understanding where we came from and the

00:02:30.260 importance of our achievements is the best antidote to the fervent anti-Canadian mob.

00:02:36.700 Well, first, Brian, happy Canada Day, or happy Dominion Day. I don't know which one we're calling it

00:02:52.340 these days, but thank you so much for joining Trenour Speaker Series. We're really excited to have you on

00:02:56.580 the show today. I'm delighted to be here. Thanks for the invitation. Canada Day or Dominion Day,

00:03:01.540 I use both. It is a terribly important day in the life of Canada.

00:03:06.320 Well, thank you. I mean, it sort of falls in an interesting time because the last month or so have been

00:03:11.100 dominated with really hard conversations, looking at Canada's past and history and sort of re-examining

00:03:17.380 some of the sort of defining moments of our country. You sort of see people trying to paint it in a very

00:03:22.780 negative light. And I think a lot of Canadians, you know, we always want to strive to do better.

00:03:27.420 We believe in our country. We love our country. But it's definitely a tough cultural moment at the

00:03:33.020 time. So from your perspective, Brian, what is there to celebrate? What do you celebrate on Canada

00:03:38.560 Day and what do we have to celebrate on this holiday? Well, you know, Candace, I sometimes think

00:03:44.440 that the people who really understand how great Canada is are actually not the people born here.

00:03:52.200 The people who understand how great Canada is are the people who have chosen to come here. The many

00:03:59.480 immigrants, for example, who have come and settled in Canada. And I had the privilege just the other day

00:04:06.580 to speak to, you know, a similar kind of conversation at the Canada India Foundation. And, you know,

00:04:15.260 the audience was primarily people who've come to Canada from India over the last 20, 30, 40 years.

00:04:21.320 And I said to them that I thought they were terribly important in the Canadian mosaic and in the Canadian

00:04:33.000 society because they understand better than people born in Canada that Canada is, in fact, not a vicious,

00:04:43.100 evil, racist society that should hang its head in shame. It is a place where if we open the doors

00:04:51.740 tomorrow, as a politician I once heard say, if we open the doors tomorrow, this place would look like

00:04:57.180 Walmart on a Saturday morning, because people would rush into Canada from all over the world. And I think

00:05:05.580 we have to take a minute to think about why is that? I mean, if you think about my ancestors who came

00:05:13.580 to Canada, I'm a fifth generation Canadian. But you know, my, my ancestors on my father's side,

00:05:20.060 Lawrence and Enora Crowley came to Canada from Ireland in the 1820s. And they didn't come for 0.66

00:05:28.220 multiculturalism. They didn't come for free visits to the doctor's office, you know, all the things that

00:05:35.580 people today tend to say, Oh, these are the great things about Canada. There's nothing wrong with those

00:05:39.980 things. Don't get me wrong. But they didn't come for those things because they didn't exist. And yet

00:05:45.180 millions of people came to Canada. Millions of people came to Canada. And they came, I think,

00:05:52.940 because Canada was a place where they knew, but they didn't know how they were going to earn their

00:05:57.500 living. They didn't know whether they were going to succeed. But what they did know, was that they

00:06:01.660 would be given the chance to succeed. And often the places that they come from, will never give people 0.98

00:06:08.460 like them a chance to succeed. And when they are given a chance to succeed, and they can devote their

00:06:17.260 energies to make a success to themselves in Canada, they know that no one will step in and steal what

00:06:25.260 they have done, whether it's other people or the state or generals or, you know, ministers, or nobody

00:06:33.420 gets to take what you have created, other than through taxation that's applied fairly to everybody.

00:06:40.140 So, you know, people know that Canada is a place where you're given your chance. And I think

00:06:49.500 the many people who've come to Canada, you know, my local MP, his wife came here from Latin America,

00:06:58.060 I think. And she was tweeting just the other day, you know, Canada has given my family everything,

00:07:05.820 everything. And that's what she means. She means that Canada has given my family a chance,

00:07:13.660 a chance to make of itself what it has the ability to make of itself. And, you know, there are many,

00:07:22.140 many societies in the world, where your place is determined, before you take your first breath,

00:07:29.180 because, you know, your social class or your party membership, or your caste or whatever it is.

00:07:37.180 In Canada, it's not like that, for the vast majority of people, are there people who, you know, get stuck,

00:07:42.700 you know, who face prejudice. Think about Indigenous people. I think the position of

00:07:49.900 Indigenous people in Canada is scandalous. And we shouldn't accept it. And we need to work hard 1.00

00:07:56.700 to fix it. And that's one of the things that this generation, I think, has got some responsibility to

00:08:02.540 do. But when you think about all the people in Canada, and the opportunity that Canada offers to them

00:08:11.260 to create a life that is in keeping with what they want for themselves, this is a rare jewel in human

00:08:18.380 experience. And it's what makes Canada great. Well, that's a beautiful explanation, Brian. And

00:08:23.980 I can sort of attest to that my family, like yours has been in Canada for many generations, as far as

00:08:30.300 nine generations back, and then on other sides of the family, you know, I'm the second generation, my

00:08:35.260 grandfather was born in England. But my husband was born in Iran, and his family moved to Canada

00:08:41.420 when he was 13 years old. And he is probably the most patriotic Canadian I know. I mean, I grew up

00:08:47.580 loving Canada and being very proud of Canada and, and loving my country. But I feel like his patriotism

00:08:53.500 is on a different level, because he really, he really believes that if he had stayed in Iran,

00:08:57.820 he'd probably be in jail, or he would have been killed by the government already. So even having that

00:09:02.620 opportunity and getting to live through that, and you kind of see through someone like that's

00:09:07.820 experience, wow, Canada is pretty great with all of its, you know, with all the past things that have

00:09:13.660 happened, all the history, there's still something really positive. Well, can we kind of unpack that a

00:09:19.580 little bit? Because, you know, what makes Canada great? How is it the case that we've built the society,

00:09:26.220 or the society has been built, that doesn't have all of those barriers that so many other countries do?

00:09:31.340 I mean, I mean, some people will just say, you know, Canada was sort of blessed with natural

00:09:35.180 resources and a new frontier. And because of that, we were able to have this free society. But as you

00:09:41.100 and I both know, free societies don't just sort of pop up, they require, you know, the institutions and

00:09:46.700 the rules and the foundation to build that. So, so, so how is it that Canada became this wonderful place

00:09:53.820 that you and I call home? Well, you see, I think there's many, many tributaries that flow into Canada,

00:10:04.300 and that make it the great place that it is. So let's pick a few, because we can't talk about

00:10:10.220 everything. I think one of the things that has blessed Canada is the fact that we're, we're in,

00:10:19.740 we're what I call a new world society. You know, we're not one of these places in which, you know,

00:10:26.300 an ancient culture, a long history, a class structure, all these things have sort of created a

00:10:35.580 society in which everybody's place is fixed. We created something new in North America when we

00:10:46.140 came here. And so the new world societies, places like America, Canada, Australia, these are places

00:10:52.380 that escaped some of the dead hand of history that has oppressed so many people in older societies.

00:11:01.340 So I think, I think that's number one. Number two, I would point out the, the tradition of freedom

00:11:10.300 that came with the, the original settlers from British society. We are the inheritors and, 0.96

00:11:20.540 and this is not limited to English speakers in Canada. French speakers benefit just as much as

00:11:25.500 English speakers, but there is a long tradition of freedom in Britain, going back to the Magna Carta and

00:11:32.700 even beyond, which we are the inheritors of. And, you know, when people look at Canadian society and they

00:11:41.580 see the flaws, they look back in our history and they say, well, you know, you know, gee, in earlier

00:11:48.060 generations, we didn't treat, uh, uh, blacks or indigenous people or women or whatever, as well as we do today. 0.67

00:11:58.620 Of course, this is true. What they forget is that the fact that we treat minorities and, you know,

00:12:07.340 oppressed groups and people trying to immigrate to Canada from, uh, non-traditional countries, et cetera,

00:12:13.900 et cetera. Um, the, the reason that we do that better now is because we have a long tradition

00:12:21.180 of trying to work out our problems, trying to understand what the principles are that kind of

00:12:28.060 underlie our tradition of freedom and asking ourselves, where are we falling down and applying

00:12:33.820 that tradition? Where are we not giving people the benefit of this tradition of freedom? Uh, which, um,

00:12:41.660 maybe, uh, you know, people like you and me, uh, are used to having, but people who are newly arrived,

00:12:50.060 you know, we all remember the Koma Gadameru, people trying to get into Canada from India at the early

00:12:56.380 part of the 20th century, or, you know, lots of other incidents, uh, of Canada failing to live up to its

00:13:04.620 high standards of how to treat people. And what, what I always try and tell people is,

00:13:12.620 you know, the issue isn't, did we make mistakes? Did we fail to, to extend to women and minorities

00:13:21.660 and so on, uh, many of the benefits of our institutions? Yeah, of course we did. The issue is never

00:13:28.940 did we make mistakes. It's, it's, it's just the other way around. There's nobody in the world

00:13:34.220 who hasn't made mistakes. The issue is always, how did you deal with your mistakes? How did you deal

00:13:41.100 with the fact that some people said, you know what, you're not treating me fairly. I'm not getting the

00:13:47.100 benefit of the institutions of freedom and so on that, that you keep saying is what makes Canada great.

00:13:53.740 And we take those criticisms seriously. We think about how have we failed? How could we do better?

00:13:59.980 And the fact that young people, for example, today can look back at Canadian history and say,

00:14:06.460 Oh my God, we did bad things in the past. No one disputes that we did bad things in the past,

00:14:12.620 but they forget to add the other part, which is that we looked at both the, the things we aspire

00:14:20.780 to the ideals that we had and the actual treatment of people. And we said, Hmm, sometimes we're not

00:14:26.780 getting this right. And we changed and we, we improved our institutions. We tried, we extended,

00:14:33.500 you know, the circle of immigration. It used to be that we let white people into, into Canada. That's 0.64

00:14:37.580 not the case anymore. As it's not the case, not because somebody swooped in and forced us to,

00:14:44.780 against our will to do something we didn't want to do. It was because we said,

00:14:48.620 you know, we as a society have always said that we wanted to treat each other respectfully. We

00:14:57.420 wanted to have freedom for everybody who came to Canada. We didn't want to have racial prejudice.

00:15:02.700 And sometimes we, we've fallen down on that. How are we going to fix that? And I think the Canada

00:15:08.140 that we all celebrate now is not, uh, the, uh, the way some people want to represent it as the inheritor

00:15:16.940 of a terrible, evil, vicious tradition of racism and sexism and homophobia. We are a society that has

00:15:26.220 spent a lot of its time and effort over the years trying to think about how to do better. And I dare

00:15:35.340 say that if you compare Canada to just about any other society in the world, we've made more progress

00:15:41.900 on these fronts than anybody else I can think of. Well, it's hard to think of another, even a new

00:15:49.020 world country, uh, that doesn't have some of the same sort of horrific, uh, pass. I, you know, I

00:15:55.580 traveled down in Latin America and, and spent a bit of time in Argentina and Brazil. And you, you know,

00:16:01.260 you look at the way that, that the Spanish treated some of the indigenous people and, and, you know,

00:16:06.300 not to say that Canada didn't as well, but, but there's sort of different scales in terms of, of

00:16:10.860 the atrocities that were carried out. Well, Brian, you seem to describe Canada as sort of like a

00:16:16.140 positive altruistic foundation that, that had some flaws that, that we're constantly working to,

00:16:22.380 to improve and, and to, to, to kind of expand that ideal to everyone. But some of the critics and

00:16:28.380 some of the people who sort of pioneer the new cancel culture and trying to erase our history, 0.91

00:16:33.340 they'll make the opposite claim that the foundation itself is wrong. And, and, and that those,

00:16:38.300 you know, those flaws that you pointed out are actually the foundation so that we can't really

00:16:42.540 move forward unless we start dismantling, uh, you know, institutions and foundations that they say

00:16:47.820 were, were founded on these, on these flawed ideas. How do you, how do you combat that? How do you

00:16:52.620 counter that? How can we preserve our traditions and our, and our institutions when we know that there were

00:16:58.220 bad things that happened and sort of how do we combat those radical voices that are demanding that we

00:17:02.380 tear things down? Yeah. Well, you see, I think when you, when you look at a society like Canada or

00:17:12.220 the United States, you know, another society founded on these great traditions of, uh, freedom,

00:17:18.700 what we have to understand is that there, there is no such thing as, uh, as human beings without

00:17:25.660 prejudices, without self-interest, without all these things. And that, by the way, includes the current

00:17:31.100 generation, you know, the next generation and the one after that will look back on them and say,

00:17:35.660 wow, they weren't as enlightened as we are. This idea that somehow this current generation is uniquely

00:17:45.580 able to look back and see all the flaws that happened before, but they're perfectly enlightened

00:17:50.140 and have no blind spots is nonsense. Every human being has blind spots. You know, the issue is,

00:17:56.140 it seems to me, uh, the, uh, back to this idea that no, there's no, no such thing as a human being

00:18:03.020 that doesn't make mistakes. No such thing as a society that doesn't make mistakes. How you judge,

00:18:07.580 uh, individuals in society is not on their mistakes. It's on how they dealt with the mistakes. Did they

00:18:14.300 step up? Did they take ownership of their mistakes? Did they accept responsibility? Did they try to fix it?

00:18:21.660 Uh, and I think that the history of Canada, uh, and as I said, uh, before, you know, the history of Canada,

00:18:29.340 uh, doesn't start in Canada. It's a history that reaches way back. Take something like the Magna Carta,

00:18:35.660 you know, the Magna Carta, uh, you know, people will say, well, Magna Carta involved just a bunch of, uh,

00:18:44.060 barons kind of negotiating with the King, uh, over whether the King could do whatever he wanted,

00:18:50.940 or the King needed to consult a few, you know, this handful of aristocrats. And in a way that's

00:18:57.020 true. I mean, the Magna Carta wasn't about the average person. It wasn't about guaranteeing rights

00:19:02.060 to people like you and me, uh, didn't, uh, end serfdom and it, uh, you know, it didn't end the

00:19:07.820 feudals of it. So in a way it's, it's, it's a bad thing. It confirmed, uh, you know, the, the,

00:19:16.540 the status of, uh, of a handful of people running society, but what people forget is that it kicked

00:19:23.900 off a process. It kicked off a process. Okay. It started with the, you know, a few barons getting

00:19:29.820 a little more power vis-a-vis the King, but it started off a process in which we had to keep

00:19:35.340 enlarging at every stage, the circle of people who were drawn into decision-making. And ultimately

00:19:42.140 we got to the point where we were debating whether, well, shouldn't everyone have a, have a role of,

00:19:47.340 you know, we went from, you know, the reform act to the 1830s where, you know, just a handful

00:19:53.820 of people now were, were voting in elections and so on until we got to the 20th century and suddenly

00:20:00.300 women were voting and people who didn't have property were voting. And, you know, we got to a

00:20:06.620 point where everyone had to be consulted about how power was going to be exercised. But Magna Carta

00:20:14.140 was necessary to kick that off, to, to, to establish the idea that the King didn't just get to do whatever

00:20:20.300 he wanted. And you might look back and say at every stage, well, you know, when we extended the

00:20:28.540 franchise to a handful of people, we didn't extend it to everybody. And therefore that's, that, that's

00:20:34.140 evidence of how vicious society is. Well, that's not the way I see it. I look back at those same facts

00:20:40.060 and I see, I see the unfolding of a process in which we took seriously the ideas of freedom and individual

00:20:48.780 dignity and responsibility. And we, we progressively extended it and extended it and extended it

00:20:55.660 till we reach today. And, you know, we're having further debates today. Well, are there still people

00:21:01.820 who don't get the full recognition of their individual dignity? You don't get recognition

00:21:06.860 of their full freedom. That's a perfectly legitimate conversation to have. It doesn't require us to despise

00:21:12.460 our past to have that conversation. On the contrary, it is the unfolding of the ideas that underpin our

00:21:20.700 society throughout history. That is the foundation stone of the individual rights and things that we

00:21:28.460 so value today. We, we can't actually have the benefits that we want today and dispense with how we

00:21:37.020 got them. The process is actually essential. And it is the, the process is what's woven into our

00:21:43.980 institution. And it's, it's the, the process has not, we have to think about the, the direction of the

00:21:51.420 process, the direction of the process has been in the right direction. We have consistently moved to

00:21:59.020 improve the functioning of our institutions in order to bring them more in accordance with these universal

00:22:04.620 ideas of freedom and dignity, which I think underlie Canada's success.

00:22:09.580 That's interesting. I've, I've heard the argument that, you know, not just Canada,

00:22:14.780 but the Western world has sort of reached that peak liberalism where, where, you know, we've achieved

00:22:21.260 the, the sort of maximum amount of liberty extended to the maximum amount of people, and that we can sort

00:22:27.020 of only go down from here. And you, you hear it on the left, sort of the idea of like late stage

00:22:32.300 capitalism and things are starting to fall apart. You, you heard a little bit on the right as well,

00:22:35.980 Jonah Goldberg's, uh, latest book about the, the collapse of America. Um, where, where he basically

00:22:41.900 argues that we're at the top of the mountain and no matter which direction we go, we're going down

00:22:45.980 from here. What, what, what do you say to those, uh, people? Are you, are you sort of pessimistic about

00:22:50.780 this? Or do you think that there's still a room where we can go maintaining our sort of ordered

00:22:55.980 liberty and our traditions that date back to the Magna Carta, as you mentioned? Uh, or, or do you think

00:22:59.980 that there's a point where you just start sort of nowhere left to go, but down?

00:23:06.700 Well, look, my view is that no human achievement is permanent. Uh, they're always vulnerable. Uh,

00:23:16.220 and that includes the freedom, uh, and, you know, well-functioning institutions that are,

00:23:24.860 uh, I think the, the blessing that Canada bestows upon us. Um, so, you know, we can't afford to be

00:23:34.300 complacent. Uh, and, you know, one of the things that concerns me about, you know, all the unfolding

00:23:44.140 demonstrations and the tearing down of statues and the rejecting, rejection of, uh, of our history and so

00:23:50.540 on. One of the things that concerns me about that is that I, I, I feel that, uh, people are trying to rip

00:24:00.860 out by the roots, uh, uh, the, the, the plant whose fruits they, they, they so desperately want. Uh,

00:24:09.580 uh, your question is, will they succeed? Uh, I, I, I don't think they will succeed this time. Uh,

00:24:19.900 um, I can't speak for the future and future circumstances. I know nothing about, uh, what I

00:24:27.260 think is that, uh, there is a minority of people who have misunderstood what Canada is and where Canada

00:24:37.980 came from and they, uh, in, I, I, I'm sorry to use such a strong word in their ignorance. Uh, they are out

00:24:46.300 agitating for the destruction of what has made Canada society worth having. I don't believe that this

00:24:55.100 attitude is shared by the average Canadian. Uh, it, uh, and I, I think that

00:25:03.180 uh, what is in the hearts of people, uh, will, will prevail. And, uh, as long as Canadians in their

00:25:15.820 heart of hearts, I think that, you know, Canada's it's not that Canada is a perfect society, but we

00:25:23.100 must always compare it with where we came from and what the alternatives are. And, uh, in both cases,

00:25:31.340 I think, uh, uh, Canadians are of the view that Canada is pretty darn good. Uh, and that this is

00:25:41.420 the reason why so many people flock to Canada. Uh, we have one of the highest, uh, ratios of people

00:25:49.020 born in another country of any society in the world. Uh, and I don't think people will give this up

00:25:55.180 likely. Uh, now Canadians being a rather self-effaced lot, uh, uh, you know, don't, 0.98

00:26:06.140 unlike say Americans, they don't get out in the street and say, okay, you're demonstrating, uh,

00:26:11.020 for something I don't believe in and I'm going to push back Canadians, you know, kind of say, well, 1.00

00:26:16.380 okay, well let them have their say, you know, uh, but, uh, I don't think that you will find that

00:26:22.940 ordinary Canadians will lend their, uh, their energies and their, their endorsement, uh, to a

00:26:35.980 tearing down of a society that I think they feel quite warmly about. Well, you mentioned that a lot

00:26:42.620 of it comes from sort of just misunderstanding or an ignorance of history. Maybe we can try to get

00:26:48.620 through some of that history to understand where Canada came from. We talked about the Magna Carta

00:26:53.420 as sort of being the origin of a constitution, but here in Canada, you know, the, the idea of Canada,

00:26:59.180 you can't really divorce it from the architect, which was Sir John A. Macdonald who, who led,

00:27:05.180 led the discussions and, and was the country's first prime minister. Now you've, you've been a defender

00:27:10.060 and admirer of Sir John A., and in recent years, he's obviously become a target of, of criticism.

00:27:15.820 Um, so before we get into some of the controversy, let's, let's talk a little bit about Sir John

00:27:20.220 A. Macdonald's legacy, um, and what he did for Canada and why, uh, why we should be proud.

00:27:26.620 Sure. Well, um, you know, uh, as you say, I've talked about how Canada and its great traditions

00:27:33.580 reach all the way back to Magna Carta and beyond, but you know, the, the, the, the most important,

00:27:38.620 uh, manifestations of that tradition from Canada's point of view were things like 1867. This is what

00:27:47.980 we celebrate on Canada Day or on Dominion Day. We celebrate, uh, the founding of a political order.

00:27:55.660 Now, you know, it, don't get me wrong. 1867 didn't create Canada. What we are as a society predates,

00:28:04.780 uh, 1867. Uh, its roots go way back beyond that. But what 1867 did was it created a political order to,

00:28:14.300 to frame that in the Northern half of North America. And, uh, Sir John A.

00:28:20.700 John A. Was not the only guy, but he was the top guy. He was the one whose vision

00:28:28.220 allowed us to bring together these disparate colonies who were often at loggerheads with each

00:28:34.060 other. They mistrusted each other. There were customs booths at the border between these, uh,

00:28:39.660 between these colonies. Um, uh, there was division between English speakers and French speakers,

00:28:46.300 between Catholics and Protestants. Um, it was not at all evident that it would be possible to get them 0.91

00:28:54.780 to agree to create a political society in which they would work together, uh, on things of common

00:29:02.620 interest. Uh, it was Sir John A.'s vision about how we could create such a political society in North

00:29:12.380 America. Uh, you know, this transcontinental parliamentary democracy, uh, under a, you know,

00:29:19.580 monarchical head of state. Uh, we are really probably the third or fourth oldest functioning political

00:29:29.740 order in the world. There are lots of other older societies, but their political structure has not

00:29:35.500 succeeded and not endured as long as Canada's has. Uh, and you know, Sir John A. was lived at a time

00:29:44.620 of great nation building. You know, that this was the, this was the year when Germany was created out 0.90

00:29:49.500 of a bunch of tiny little princely statelets. Uh, when Italy was created, uh, as a, as a modern nation

00:29:56.300 state, again, out of a bunch of tiny little statelets, uh, other, other countries, uh, also emerged,

00:30:03.420 uh, as fully fledged nation states, Canada under Sir John A. Macdonald's leadership is one of those

00:30:10.220 states that emerged out of division and confusion and so on, um, at, at exactly that time. And, uh,

00:30:20.380 uh, I think that we owe Sir John A. a tremendous debt of gratitude for having enabled us to reach this,

00:30:31.740 uh, political order, which has proven so durable, uh, in the face of all the conflicts that I mentioned

00:30:40.060 without any use of force, this was all something, um, that was discussed and negotiated and agreed to.

00:30:48.540 Um, I think that, uh, for Canadians to do anything but recognize the greatness of Sir Johnny's vision

00:30:58.140 and his incredible political skills, bringing it to fruition for us to do anything but to celebrate

00:31:05.980 that man would be a travesty. It's interesting because, uh, our neighbors down south in the US,

00:31:12.380 they, they, they learned so much about the founding fathers. They study the, the federalist papers and,

00:31:18.540 and they, they learned so much detail about the, the sort of deliberations that went on in, in,

00:31:24.220 the revolutionary war and everything that, that led to the sort of independence day. We, we don't

00:31:29.340 really learn as much about the sort of origin of Canada. I, I learned something that I didn't know

00:31:34.700 before from watching one of your videos, which was that Sir Johnny McDonald had read and studied

00:31:39.260 these US founding fathers and he actually brought a copy of the federalist papers to the confederation

00:31:44.940 table. Um, and so he, he, he focused and, and, and tried to learn from the mistakes that he saw

00:31:51.900 that had been made, um, by those founding fathers in the US and, and tried to create some, something

00:31:57.180 slightly different to, to sort of ensure that Canada didn't go down that path. Maybe you could

00:32:02.220 speak a little bit to, to that and what, what, what his vision really was and how it differed from that

00:32:07.660 of the founding fathers. Yeah. Well, of course, um, you have to remember that, uh, I, I talked a little

00:32:16.220 bit about, uh, the era of the creation of Canada being one of great nation building. Uh, but it, it was

00:32:23.980 also the, the, the years immediately following the American civil war. Uh, you know, the great republic

00:32:30.300 to the south had literally torn itself apart, by the way, uh, it tore itself apart over a disagreement

00:32:37.980 about how to extend the benefits of, you know, the American political order to people who were wrongly

00:32:46.460 excluded, uh, in 1776. And, and later when they, uh, when they actually created the, uh, the, the American

00:32:53.980 constitution, we're talking about, of course, about slaves. Um, the civil war was all about slavery,

00:33:00.860 states rights, uh, you know, the ability of, uh, the Southern states to maintain slavery in the face

00:33:06.300 of the opposition of the North. Uh, but it was also a, it was a battle over values. It was a battle over,

00:33:13.260 um, is America right to allow this exception to, you know, the, the, the liberal individualism that

00:33:21.260 underlies, uh, American society? Is it right to allow this exception? The, the conclusion for American

00:33:29.740 so what was it, it was not acceptable to allow this exception. Uh, but back to Canada, um, you know,

00:33:35.980 Sir Johnny saw, uh, uh, an American society, which they, uh, he and his, uh, uh, fellow founders of Canada,

00:33:47.740 they saw a society in which they thought the chief problem was that the individual units, you know,

00:33:54.780 the states were too powerful and Washington was too weak. Uh, and they set out expressly to create, uh,

00:34:03.900 a Canada in which, uh, there would be a powerful central government buttressed by important powers

00:34:12.940 granted under the constitution. Uh, and that this would create a society that would, um,

00:34:20.460 buttress and protect peace order and good government. Um, now, you know, one of these great ironies of

00:34:29.180 history, um, Canada didn't quite unfold exactly that way. And, uh, because of judicial decisions and,

00:34:37.980 uh, you know, the, the English French division, uh, and lots of other reasons, Canada ended up being

00:34:45.900 quite decentralized, but it was, it was part of the genius of what Sir John A and, uh, his colleagues

00:34:53.820 created that it had, uh, it had the strength and the flexibility to adjust over time. Uh, and, um,

00:35:04.780 you know, Sir John A thought, uh, that one of the great weaknesses of the American, um, experiment

00:35:17.900 was that, uh, was that, uh, it was the kind of unrestricted, uh, democracy that, uh, you know,

00:35:25.900 the mob could kind of get ahold of political institutions and rule and be, and be driven by

00:35:31.740 emotion and so on. And, um, Sir John A said, well, that's, that's, that's not really our tradition.

00:35:38.540 Our tradition is of a, a, a strong government that, uh, protects individual rights. And, you know,

00:35:46.700 one of the things that, uh, Sir John A famously said was if a man has rights, I will protect them

00:35:53.260 till my dying day. Uh, uh, and, uh, he thought that, and, and this is part of the, that British

00:36:01.740 tradition that we talked about that, um, if individuals are to succeed, we can't give the

00:36:09.580 mob, which is, uh, you know, a bunch of individuals driven by emotion. We can't give them too much power.

00:36:16.300 We have to have a, we have to have a strong state, uh, but one that doesn't interfere too

00:36:21.580 much. It doesn't get in the way of people pursuing their own, uh, their own objectives,

00:36:27.500 their own vision of the good life. Uh, and I think he struck a pretty good balance there. And certainly

00:36:35.820 he was happy, uh, with the balance that he struck and thought it was a better one than the Americans 0.92

00:36:41.580 had found. It's interesting. Cause I, I debate with some of my sort of libertarian friends down

00:36:46.780 in the States and we compare the two systems a lot and, you know, in some ways Canada is not nearly

00:36:51.580 as free as United States, particularly, you know, with healthcare and things like that. Uh, but then

00:36:56.460 on another, on other, uh, issues like, you know, one of the, one of the issues that a lot of my friends

00:37:01.260 have in the U S is lack of school choice. And the fact that they have this federal department of

00:37:06.140 education, uh, that makes decisions about local schools, you know, from, from a centralized position

00:37:11.420 in Washington where Canada doesn't have that and we have a lot more school choice. So I think you

00:37:15.580 can definitely look at the, the sort of outcome and, and see ways in which both countries are freer.

00:37:22.140 Uh, one of the things I wanted to ask you about though, is that there seems to be more so than in

00:37:27.260 the U S there seems to be movements towards, um, separatism and, and, you know, provinces leaving

00:37:34.060 the country. You hear about it a lot more in Canada than you do in the U S with secession movements

00:37:38.780 down there. So, you know, you, you have the history now of Quebec separatism. There seems to be a new

00:37:44.060 flaring one out west with, with Alberta or Wexit. Uh, do you think that's something that's, that's sort

00:37:49.820 of baked into the, the, the framework that Sir John A created, or is that just, uh, uh, you know,

00:37:56.220 something that was bound to happen just given the different types of people that, that moved and

00:38:00.700 settled in those areas? Yes. Well, I, I, I, I remember very well when I was, uh, when I was younger

00:38:09.660 and, uh, the, I think it was the first Quebec referendum was, uh, underway. So that would have

00:38:16.700 been about 1980. Uh, and, uh, I was talking to an American and, uh, you know, for some reason this,

00:38:24.540 this came up and, uh, this guy said, but how can you have a, how can you have a referendum on

00:38:30.700 separation? We settled that question in the civil war. Uh, well, you know, the Americans settled it.

00:38:36.780 The Americans settled the question that they had a far more successful, uh, secessionist movement in

00:38:43.820 the United States than we've ever had in Canada. They, they had 13 states that declared independence

00:38:48.540 from Washington. Uh, they had their own president, Jefferson Davis. I, I, I've been to the house where

00:38:54.060 he lived in retirement after the failure of the secessionist experiment. Um, uh, but, uh, they fought

00:39:01.660 a bloody civil war, uh, over it. And the conclusion from that civil war was, okay, we're not going to try

00:39:09.740 that again. Uh, I, I, I think, uh, Americans have it very firmly anchored in their minds that you don't

00:39:19.740 play the separatist card. Uh, we're all in this together. Uh, and, uh, whatever, uh, unhappiness,

00:39:28.860 divisions, arguments, cleavages, however you like to think of it, uh, uh, arise, we're going to work

00:39:35.740 them out within the political system. Now, Canada has a different experience. Um, we've never had a

00:39:45.180 successful, uh, secessionist movement. Uh, we have had, um, uh, votes, uh, in favor of secession. You,

00:39:55.180 you, you might know that in Nova Scotia, right after 1867, there was actually a vote to, we don't

00:40:00.940 want this. Yeah. Let's get out of here. Uh, it was not successful. Uh, but, um, basically we have

00:40:10.940 allowed that idea to take root in Canada that really, if you don't like things here,

00:40:17.420 you're entitled to take your marbles and go home. And, uh, um, I, I, I'm sorry to say that the, uh,

00:40:26.220 the, the Supreme court, uh, uh, endorsed that idea. Um, I, I think it would completely open the

00:40:34.140 Supreme court to say, we can find nothing in the constitution about leaving and said, you know,

00:40:40.700 if you, if you want to leave, you're going to have to amend the constitution to it, to,

00:40:44.300 to make that possibility real. Uh, they didn't say that. I think that's too bad. Uh, but what they did

00:40:50.860 say was, uh, and, and this is completely correct in my view, um, uh, if there's going to be discussion

00:40:58.940 of leaving, let's be very clear that it must be done in accordance with the rule of law.

00:41:03.340 In other words, uh, if you have a vote in any province, Alberta, Quebec, British Columbia,

00:41:08.860 you name it, uh, if you have a vote to leave, that doesn't settle the question that just says,

00:41:14.140 okay, um, we, we want to leave. What do you have to say? And that there has to be a negotiation

00:41:19.100 and there has to be, it has to be done in accordance with the law. And that would require

00:41:23.260 amendment to the constitution and all these complicated, difficult things. Uh, that was the,

00:41:29.500 that was the correct thing for the Supreme court to say. Uh, and so, um, I have to say that I, I,

00:41:36.780 I think that, uh, well, I, I, in a way I wish the Supreme court had said constitution says nothing

00:41:43.580 about being able to leave. So unless you change the constitution, it's off the table.

00:41:49.260 Um, but what they, what they did say was whatever you do, it must be done in accordance with the

00:41:56.380 rule of law. And that's a great Canadian tradition. Uh, and that makes, uh, leaving while you can

00:42:04.060 threaten it, you know, we're going to stop you from saying I want to leave, uh, while you can threaten

00:42:10.540 it, actually doing it is incredibly hard. Uh, and so, uh, I actually think that the power

00:42:19.980 of threatening to leave is much reduced compared to what it was, let's say in 1980, when the first,

00:42:28.940 uh, referendum was held on sovereignty association. And people thought, gee, uh, a lot of people thought

00:42:35.020 if Quebec votes, yes, that's the end of the country. Now we know that, um, even, uh, you know,

00:42:42.460 a big important province like Quebec voting to leave, that is not the end of the discussion.

00:42:47.660 That's the beginning.

00:42:49.500 Absolutely. Uh, one of the things that we, we talk a lot about in Canada and you hear from all

00:42:54.140 the political parties is, is what, what you were just mentioning, the sort of foundation of the rule

00:42:58.860 of law. We, we, we hear it from, from all politicians, but it's never, it's not often usually dissected

00:43:05.500 and explained. And so if, if you can tie it back to Sir John A.'s legacy, how, how would, how would you

00:43:11.420 describe the rule of law? What does it mean in Canada and how is that part of Sir John A.'s legacy?

00:43:16.940 Well, yeah, the rule of law is absolutely central. Uh, in fact, I, I would put the rule of law on an

00:43:30.460 equal footing with democracy. Uh, if, if, if you said to me, would you rather live in a society

00:43:37.980 that's democratic, but it doesn't have the rule of law or society that has the rule of law, but is

00:43:42.380 not democratic. I choose the rule of law society. I want both. Don't get, don't get me wrong. Uh,

00:43:48.620 I, I want both, but actually the rule of law is absolutely the foundation stone of all the rest.

00:43:55.260 So, um, the, the rule of law, uh, essentially says that, um,

00:44:03.740 true law, true law is founded on the idea that, um, a law is only justified. A law is only real. A law is

00:44:20.620 only authorized. A law is only, uh, justified if it applies to everybody, uh, and applies to everybody

00:44:31.260 equally, that there is no one exempted from the rule of law, that there are no exceptions

00:44:36.300 from the law, uh, that the law is intended and designed to treat everyone equally. Uh,

00:44:45.980 and that this has important ramifications. I mean, for example, there are lots of societies in which

00:44:54.460 people want to, you know, the people in charge want to pass laws telling everybody else want to do,

00:44:58.700 but they want to be exempted from those laws, right? They want to be free to do whatever they want,

00:45:04.380 but they want other people to be under the control of the law. The, the, the rule of law

00:45:12.220 properly understood says, no, no, no, that, that's that you might, you might legislate that, but it's

00:45:18.460 not the rule of law as we have come to understand in which law is a universal rule and everyone's, uh,

00:45:26.860 under, under the law, no exceptions. Uh, and if you want, uh, to bring in a regime of law that says,

00:45:37.180 well, certain people have privileges, but other people don't, uh, this is not, this is not consistent

00:45:43.740 with our tradition and our understanding of the rule of law. And it also means that the law is not applied,

00:45:50.620 uh, in inconsistent ways, you know, the, the, the reason that people got so upset and I thought rightly

00:45:58.860 upset, uh, about the issue, uh, you might recall about, uh, Jody Wilson-Raybould and whether there

00:46:06.620 would be a special prosecution agreement with, uh, uh, uh, with SNC Labelin, uh, over their past behavior

00:46:16.060 and so on. Um, I, I think the reason that people got quite, uh, upset about what seemed to be in the

00:46:24.540 minds of the government was that, um, the, the, this was, this was beginning to look like a, what the

00:46:31.580 French called, uh, call a regime that exception, you know, it's a regime of exceptions that, uh, well,

00:46:37.580 there's one rule for most people, but when we feel as to our advantage, we're going to make special

00:46:44.380 deals with people. Uh, and, um, I, I think, uh, what Jody Wilson-Raybould and her director of public

00:46:53.420 prosecutions, um, properly, you know, the principle they stood up for was that

00:46:59.260 we don't let politicians decide who gets hauled up before the courts, for example. We don't let

00:47:08.220 politicians decide, uh, whether a prosecution is going to go ahead or not, uh, because that's not

00:47:15.980 a system in which everybody under the law is treated the same. Uh, and, uh, I, I was quite proud

00:47:24.700 of Canadians for the fuss they made over this with the, you know, the prime minister standing up and

00:47:29.740 saying, oh, you know, I'm, I'm standing up for, uh, for jobs. And, and a lot of people saying,

00:47:35.260 well, of course, feel free to stand up for jobs, but not at the expense of the rule of law,

00:47:40.540 not, uh, at the expense of, you know, you deciding whether or not, uh, you, the prime minister thinks

00:47:47.100 somebody's broken the law and whether you're going to let them off the hook, as opposed to judges

00:47:52.620 deciding whether or not somebody has broken the law and whether they're going to be punished or not.

00:47:56.700 Um, these are all essential pieces of the rule of law. Well, it seems like prime ministers,

00:48:03.900 you know, right up to present day, uh, don't always live up to those ideals, uh, including, um,

00:48:10.220 Justin Trudeau, but I wanted to circle back to Sir John A. McDonald, because he's certainly been,

00:48:17.420 um, the sort of center of a lot of controversy, a lot of criticism, fierce criticism in recent years.

00:48:24.540 Uh, some critics say that he should be forgotten. Others go much further. They call him a war criminal,

00:48:30.060 accuse him of ethnic cleansing, or even genocide. Um, some, some go so far as to say that, that what he did

00:48:37.420 in Canada was the equivalent of a Holocaust, uh, Cree leader and activist, Harold Cardinal once said that

00:48:42.940 it was the Canadian equivalent of Nazi Germany's final solution for the Jews of Europe. Now, this

00:48:49.660 seems overly hyperbolic and sort of hard to even process for, I think, a lot of Canadians who are 0.93

00:48:55.740 just patriotic that, you know, they learned a little bit about Sir John A. in, in schools, but they're

00:49:00.380 obviously not completely well-versed in, in all of the things that Sir John A. may or may not have done.

00:49:07.100 So I, I wonder if you could help us sort of understand how, uh, Canadians can understand

00:49:12.380 these types of criticisms and, and what perhaps they can do to push back against some of these

00:49:16.780 more radical narratives. Sure. Well, uh, look, I, as I've already said, um, I believe very strongly that, uh,

00:49:31.180 uh, the place that is made in Canada for Aboriginal people is, has traditionally been completely

00:49:38.780 unacceptable. Uh, we have a lot of work to do. Uh, that's a, that's a different issue

00:49:45.980 from, uh, the issue of Sir John A. MacDonald and his contribution to, uh, the founding and the history

00:49:53.500 of Canada. Uh, Sir John A. for example, you know, historical figures are complicated. They're not

00:50:02.540 simple. Uh, they are not, uh, you know, evil caricatures. They are real complex people. So

00:50:11.100 that for example, um, you know, one of the criticisms that's made of Sir John is that, uh, in a speech in

00:50:18.620 parliament, uh, if you take one sentence out of the speech, it's, it looks like he's saying,

00:50:24.460 well, should we allow Aboriginal people on the prairies to starve? And they say, you see, he he's, 0.99

00:50:31.980 he's arguing for a policy of starvation of Aboriginal people. They don't go on and read the rest of the

00:50:37.500 speech in which he says explicitly, we should reject such a policy. This is not acceptable. This is not how

00:50:45.100 we behave. Uh, um, lots of people don't know that Sir John A. MacDonald granted the vote to Aboriginal

00:50:54.140 people. Sir Wilfrid Laurier, his liberal successor took it away again. Uh, so these stories are always

00:51:04.060 much more complicated than, uh, the people want to turn them into medieval morality plays. Uh, uh, so

00:51:13.260 I, I, I've already talked about the truth that the political genius of Sir John A. MacDonald,

00:51:20.060 which made the political order of Canada possible. Uh, uh, you know, people say he was, uh, not only

00:51:31.420 genocidal. I, I, I, I've dealt, I think with that, uh, they, they say, well, he was responsible for

00:51:37.020 residential schools. Well, every prime minister, uh, up until, uh, very recently, uh, is in that sense

00:51:48.620 responsible for residential schools because they all happened on their watch. He didn't start them. 0.89

00:51:53.660 Uh, residential schools existed before, uh, 1867. Uh, you know, he continued a policy, which by the way,

00:52:02.380 at the time was regarded as enlightened. I mean, we don't see it that way now. Uh, they thought that

00:52:08.540 this was a way of extending to Aboriginal people, the benefits of, you know, Western, uh, industrial 0.98

00:52:14.220 society by, uh, educating them, uh, as, as we are, uh, educated in our schools and, uh, giving them the

00:52:21.660 tools to be full participants in, uh, Western society. Uh, we now understand that that's wrong and that,

00:52:28.620 uh, you know, what, uh, Aboriginal people should be doing is making, uh, their own decisions about 0.99

00:52:35.100 their own education in order to hand on their culture and their, uh, their understandings to

00:52:41.340 their children. And we should be completely supportive of that and making sure that they

00:52:45.500 have the resources to provide public services to their communities, the way that every other

00:52:50.380 community in Canada has the resources to do that. Um, the fact that Sir John A., a complete child of his

00:53:00.940 times, didn't see it that way, doesn't make him some evil devil to be extirpated from the history of

00:53:11.500 Canada. Makes him a typical Canadian of, uh, the latter half of the, uh, 19th century. Um, and so I,

00:53:23.420 while we want to be able to say, um, gosh, you know, in a way we, we regret, uh, the way that people in

00:53:35.500 the past saw, let's say Aboriginal people and, uh, uh, we recognize the damage that that did. We also see 1.00

00:53:45.580 the, the good things they did and we're able to balance them up and reach a just appreciation rather

00:53:53.580 than, uh, either treating them as saints or devils because they're neither, they're just human beings.

00:53:58.940 Uh, and, um, uh, we take our, our understandings from our longer historical perspective, looking back

00:54:10.860 on what they achieved and what's happened subsequently. And we say, yeah, we, we want to do

00:54:16.060 things differently. We don't, we're not required to despise our past because things, people did things

00:54:21.980 differently, having different understandings at different times. Uh, we're required to take our

00:54:27.580 understandings today and do the very best we can to put them into effect. That's our job. Uh, and,

00:54:34.780 um, we don't have to hate the past in order to do that today.

00:54:38.940 Well, it seems like a lot of the people who are pushing the narrative and the idea that we should

00:54:42.860 sort of start erasing our past, we should be ashamed. They're trying to strip context. Uh, they're

00:54:47.100 trying to create, you know, one, one dimensional caricatures of, of people to, to highlight only the bad

00:54:52.700 parts of it, but sometimes the efforts are, are, are done by people who, you know, don't seem to have

00:54:58.380 those types of motivations. Uh, professor James, the shock of the university of Regina has sort of

00:55:03.580 been a leading, uh, I would call his basically a campaign of revisionist history. And I don't mean

00:55:09.180 that in a pejorative sense. I mean that in a, you know, a literal sense, he's trying to come up with a

00:55:14.540 different narrative and history about Sir John A. Macdonald and the history of, uh, you know,

00:55:20.940 Canadian history, Western Canadian history had a book called clearing the planes, which

00:55:25.020 you know, paints out a lot of the accusations that you, that you mentioned with the idea of

00:55:29.580 deliberate forced starvation and that kind of thing. I, I, I'm sure you're familiar with, um,

00:55:35.180 James the shock. What do you make of his, his opinion? He seems to be a very influential and even

00:55:40.220 a celebrated historian in Canada. I know that he led a movement to have Sir John A. Macdonald's name

00:55:45.900 removed from a top book prize in Canada, the Canadian Historical Society book prize. So in 2018,

00:55:51.420 they removed Sir John A. Macdonald's name. And, uh, according to, uh, news reports at the time,

00:55:56.940 members, uh, of this historical society voted overwhelmingly in favor of the change. So obviously

00:56:02.700 that, you know, there, there, there's been some success in this campaign, um, to change the way that

00:56:07.820 we look at Sir John A. What, what do you make of the historians sort of moving this direction?

00:56:16.140 Well, you know, I, I think in the wake of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission,

00:56:23.420 uh, that Canadians feel, uh, uh, a great burden of responsibility for the fact that, uh, through,

00:56:31.980 you know, uh, frequently indifference rather than hostility, uh, uh, uh, we allowed, uh, a situation

00:56:43.100 to emerge in which, uh, indigenous people lived in scandalous circumstances in Canada. Uh, and I think 1.00

00:56:51.180 there is a desire, uh, a legitimate desire, a desire I share, uh, on the part of many Canadians to make amends,

00:57:00.140 uh, to do better. Um, I, I personally don't think that, uh, making amends and doing better, uh,

00:57:12.460 is achieved by trashing the history of Canada. It's something that we have to learn from. And indeed,

00:57:20.620 you know, if you, if you, if you take this, you know, the symbolism of tearing down statues or removing

00:57:28.300 Sir Johnny's name from historical prizes or from schools or whatever, um, you know, even, uh,

00:57:38.460 Murray Sinclair now a Senator, um, who shared the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. He, he himself

00:57:47.180 has, I, I think, uh, very heroically and properly said, you know, the issue is not tearing down,

00:57:54.860 uh, the statues is not destroying the reputations of heroes who have contributed much to Canada.

00:58:03.500 It's recognizing that our, our understanding of Canada and the nerves that we've had are,

00:58:09.180 are partial. They don't cover everything. And that there are, for example, uh, indigenous heroes,

00:58:16.380 uh, who have been left out of the narrative and who deserve their own, uh, statues. And I say,

00:58:24.940 bang on, uh, you know, if there are, if there are people whose contribution to Canada has not

00:58:31.500 been properly recognized, uh, and we can celebrate them and their contribution to Canada, that's a

00:58:38.780 positive step, uh, saying, uh, Oh, you know, they're Sir Johnny McDonald, uh, is responsible for

00:58:45.980 everything bad that's happened ever since he was prime minister. And we should, uh, be embarrassed

00:58:50.940 ever to mention his name and, and extirpate him from the historical record. I think this is the wrong

00:58:55.820 way to go about it. Uh, so, uh, I, you know, I'm kind of with, uh, Murray Sinclair that, um, our job is

00:59:05.260 to do better at expanding the narrative of Canadian history, not narrowing it, uh, and recognizing those

00:59:15.420 things that have not been given their just due, uh, yet. And I'm sure that there's much to be learned.

00:59:23.820 I have much to learn, uh, uh, but, uh, I'm not going to stop defending Sir John A because I have lots to

00:59:32.220 learn about other people who've contributed to Canadian history.

00:59:35.500 Well, I know you've been in favor of, um, reconciliation. You believe it's an important

00:59:40.940 part of our, our tradition moving forward, but I want to get your thoughts on the Truth and

00:59:45.900 Reconciliation Report, the commission report that came out in 2015. One of the things that I kind of

00:59:51.180 got fixated on was their use of the term cultural genocide. I, I don't like that term because I don't

00:59:57.340 think that the term, I think the term genocide is created to have such a severe meaning that you

01:00:02.700 shouldn't have a qualifier in front of it, that when you add the word cultural, it waters down,

01:00:07.980 dilutes the meaning of the word genocide, which is reserved for the most egregious examples of

01:00:13.420 atrocities in, in human history. And there's only a small handful of them. Um, but, but, but perhaps

01:00:20.060 that's just me with language. What, what did you make of the recommendations that the Truth and

01:00:25.260 Reconciliation Commission, uh, gave? And do you think it was fair that they use that term cultural 0.98

01:00:30.460 genocide? Well, you know, there's, there can be no doubt that what, what happened, you know,

01:00:40.940 the, the, the residential schools and so on, we've, we've already talked about it a little bit.

01:00:44.780 There was an effort to erase Aboriginal culture. I think no one can deny it. Um, 0.99

01:00:55.260 and from our vantage point today, we know that that was a mistake, uh, that, um, however,

01:01:06.220 well-intentioned the people who did it, um, uh, it's done terrific damage to, uh, to, um, Indigenous

01:01:15.100 people in Canada. We have a lot of work to do to, to, to fix that. Um, I, I, you know, genocide,

01:01:23.340 as you say, is a terribly freighted, uh, emotionally freighted word. Uh, and I, I really don't want

01:01:32.780 to get hung up on whether we use, you know, word X or Y to describe, uh, what was done in the past.

01:01:41.180 Uh, I, I want us to fix our attention on where did we go wrong? How were we mistaken?

01:01:49.820 How can we do better? How can we work together to fix this? Uh, and, you know, I, I, I, I don't think

01:01:59.500 using words like cultural genocide are helpful and I don't think, um, resisting, uh, you know,

01:02:07.980 fixing the mistakes, uh, because we didn't like the word that was used is the right thing to do either.

01:02:13.340 I, I, I, I, I think, uh, uh, you know, unless what we want to do is entrench beyond all fixing,

01:02:22.540 uh, a, uh, a culture of animosity and antagonism between Aboriginal and or Indigenous and non-Indigenous

01:02:32.140 people in Canada. Um, we have to stop using these words as clubs to beat each other. Uh,

01:02:39.260 uh, the important thing is that people of goodwill come together to try and make things better and

01:02:46.700 that's the only thing that matters.

01:02:49.660 So what, what other steps can Canada take at this point? I, I, I'll just mention sort of anecdotally,

01:02:55.180 I have some friends that live in New Zealand and one of the things I always liked and kind of admired

01:02:59.660 about New Zealand is how the, the mainstream New Zealand society promotes and sort of has pride around

01:03:05.180 the Maori culture. They're very knowledgeable about them. And a lot of the sort of national symbols

01:03:09.820 and, and art, uh, have to do with the Maori people. And I, I, I grew up in Vancouver and in part on

01:03:16.060 Vancouver Island. And, you know, there is a sort of very rich tradition of art. I noticed your beautiful

01:03:21.420 tie that you're wearing. I think that's Haida. Um, but my, my family loves Haida art as well and collects

01:03:27.900 different kind of wooden pieces that we have around the house. Um, you know, that, that might be sort of a

01:03:32.940 small token example of, of how Canadians can, can take steps towards reconciliation is, is by

01:03:38.140 understanding the art and tradition and history of the, of the first nations people, what, you know,

01:03:43.740 where we live, but what, what, what, what do you think we can, we can do at this point to, to really

01:03:48.140 try to, um, achieve that vision that we talked about at the beginning of the interview of, of, of making sure

01:03:53.820 that all people have equal access to the sort of Canadian dream.

01:03:57.020 Sure. Well, uh, um, my grandmother was New Zealander and I, I completely agree with what you, uh, say

01:04:05.820 about, um, the, uh, the, the truly impressive way that people in New Zealand have, uh, Aboriginal or

01:04:13.980 Indigenous and non-Indigenous together have, um, have, uh, integrated the contribution of, uh, the Maori

01:04:21.500 culture and people into the mainstream of, uh, of New Zealand life. Um, you know, here in Canada, um,

01:04:32.460 there is, you know, look, let, let, let, let, let, let's, let's be honest. There's, there's a lot of

01:04:37.740 anti, um, Indigenous prejudice, um, uh, and we have to work hard to overcome that without falling into the

01:04:49.580 opposite, uh, uh, uh, error of thinking that, uh, everything that, uh, uh, non-Indigenous people

01:04:56.940 in Canada has been, uh, uh, you know, a sin who's, whose, uh, weight can never be lifted from our

01:05:03.340 shoulders. Uh, I, I, I, I think the, the number one thing that we can and must do is to stop

01:05:13.100 non-Indigenous people thinking that Indigenous people are something that has to be fixed,

01:05:21.260 you know, that, that, that somehow public policy is going to swoop in and make everything better,

01:05:26.460 or that, uh, you know, if only we had, you know, got rid of the Indian Act and we did this, that,

01:05:32.380 or the other thing, don't get me wrong, fine with getting rid of the Indian Act, but, uh, that, that, um,

01:05:38.620 uh, somehow the, this paternalistic view persists that, um, Aboriginal people are to be fixed

01:05:51.660 because there's something wrong with them. They have, they bear the scars of our trying to fix

01:06:00.940 them. Every generation thinks there's something different to be fixed. We got to stop thinking

01:06:05.340 about them as something as people needing to be fixed. They are people just like you and me.

01:06:11.100 You and I don't want to be fixed by anybody else. We want to be able to live our own lives, right?

01:06:18.060 Uh, and, uh, Aboriginal people are no different. They want to be able to live their own lives.

01:06:25.180 And in so doing, they need to get the same kind of support, uh, from the rest of society that every,

01:06:32.940 every one of us expects so that, you know, they get the right, the, the, the health services and

01:06:38.380 the education services and all those other things, um, uh, delivered by the people who,

01:06:45.340 who know them and understand them, i.e. by themselves, uh, rather than us swooping in and saying,

01:06:52.300 well, you know, we've got the social workers and we've got the, you know, the healthcare workers and we've

01:06:56.540 got the, uh, we've got the, the, the, the Aboriginal, uh, department in Ottawa. That's going to keep an eye

01:07:04.860 on your local government to make sure you're doing X, Y, and Z. We, we have to stop doing this.

01:07:13.660 We have to, uh, give them, uh, the support that they need. We have to give them the opportunities that,

01:07:20.700 uh, are available to other Canadians. And then we have to let them make their own choices.

01:07:25.020 Uh, with our complete support. Uh, I, I, I think we're not, I think we're not there yet.

01:07:32.700 Uh, and, um, I, the, the, you know, the, the government, um, uh, uh, of Canada is way too slow,

01:07:41.580 uh, in engaging with, uh, with indigenous people to negotiate modern treaties and all,

01:07:48.700 uh, spend too much time in court, not enough time, uh, with practical problem solving, uh,

01:07:57.340 with figuring out how to make sure that we get out of the way of Aboriginal people and making sure 1.00

01:08:03.260 that they have the resources to make lives themselves in Canada that are worthy of, uh,

01:08:09.420 Canadian society and, uh, to reflect their values. That if we can do something even close to that,

01:08:17.580 we will have, uh, honored the obligations of our generation towards First Nations people.

01:08:22.860 Well, that's very well said, Brian. Well, like I said, this is a special Canada Day edition of the

01:08:28.220 True North Speaker Series. And I think it really helped us sort of understand that the areas of our,

01:08:32.380 our history that we should be proud of, and the areas that we still, uh, of our society that we still

01:08:37.660 need to, to work on. So just to sort of, as a final message to viewers and to Canadians out there,

01:08:42.940 Brian, you know, we, we, we want to be patriotic people. We want to have pride in our, in our country,

01:08:48.140 in our system. And, and of course we have knowledge that our, that our forefathers were not perfect and

01:08:53.260 that they lived in a different time with sort of different cultural norms. So what, what message would

01:08:58.300 you have to people, both those trying to kind of fight towards, um, exposing the flaws of, of, of our,

01:09:05.820 our, uh, past, uh, past politicians and past leaders, but also those who just want to celebrate

01:09:11.500 Canada, love Canada. What, what, what's a one sort of takeaway, um, that we should have in trying to

01:09:15.980 balance this, this idea of, of pride and patriotism with recognizing historical mistakes and injustices?

01:09:23.020 Never forget that the way to judge any society, any group of human beings is not against some

01:09:30.380 impossible ideal standard. It's, you must judge people against where they've come from,

01:09:37.420 the efforts they've made to improve themselves and what the alternatives are.

01:09:42.300 By any of those measures, Canada is a rare jewel in human experience. We have every reason to be proud

01:09:49.740 of Canada. Uh, we also have every reason to think that there are things that we can do better.

01:09:55.340 Uh, not in the superficial way of the, you know, the prime minister, you know, there,

01:10:02.460 we can always do better. Uh, uh, better is always possible. Uh, but, you know, asking ourselves where,

01:10:10.060 where have we fallen down in, uh, in, in those things, those values that we believe in? Um, let's,

01:10:18.380 let's, let's do what our forefathers did, which was try and solve the problems that seemed important

01:10:25.020 to them at the time. We have problems that are important to us. We're going to work on solving

01:10:29.500 them. The fact that we have problems and that we have never solved all our problems all at once,

01:10:34.140 and that we are not some ideal society, uh, of, uh, angels and gods living on top of Olympus,

01:10:41.500 but are real fallible human beings living in the real world. This is, this is not a reason to hang

01:10:47.340 our head in shame, but rather to look around the world at other societies and say,

01:10:53.740 compared to them, we've done a good job. We have more to do. Let's roll up our sleeves,

01:10:58.620 be good Canadians, uh, be proud of what we've, we've accomplished and let's, let's have this

01:11:04.860 generation hand onto the next generation, uh, achievements, uh, uh, equal to the ones that we

01:11:11.820 received from the preceding generations. Well, I really couldn't say it any better than that.

01:11:17.420 So I think that's a great note to end on Brian. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for

01:11:21.020 joining the program. We really appreciate your time and your insight. It was a pleasure. Thank you so

01:11:25.420 much for the invitation.

Juno News - June 30, 2020

Ep. 9 ｜ Brian Lee Crowley ｜ What makes Canada great and why we should celebrate Sir John A Macdonald

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