Juno News - Erin O’Toole Takes Aim at “Deniers”

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:06.700 This is The Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:00:13.040 Coming up, Aaron O'Toole wants to change the Conservative Party.

00:00:16.540 The Canadian border is still closed for some, but open for others.

00:00:19.660 And what's with the anti-development agenda?

00:00:24.120 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.

00:00:30.000 Hello and welcome everyone to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:34.280 This is The Andrew Lawton Show on True North.

00:00:37.020 Great to have you tuned into the program.

00:00:39.180 Have you recovered from your Conservative convention hangover yet?

00:00:43.020 That is usually the question you'd have to ask people after a massive political convention.

00:00:47.860 The same question goes to the Liberals next weekend.

00:00:50.360 Normally, except this year, if you have a major hangover from it,

00:00:53.840 you might need to get some help as you were watching it from home alone.

00:00:57.560 as the convention, like so many other events, went virtual.

00:01:01.820 And I should qualify that that's precisely why I didn't watch every single minute of the day.

00:01:07.140 I, generally speaking, when it comes to conventions and events and stuff like that,

00:01:11.580 I like them because of the socialization, because of getting to catch up with people.

00:01:16.800 A lot of conferences are like big old family reunions for people you haven't seen in quite some time.

00:01:21.840 So the idea of just staring at a screen for three days, I don't find to be particularly alluring,

00:01:28.540 but I did make sure to tune in and out as the highlights were going on.

00:01:32.520 I felt bad because I had a friend of mine who is a real diehard,

00:01:36.420 and he was like texting me updates and screenshots of all of these things happening throughout the convention.

00:01:41.680 And he's like, do you want me to send you a Zoom link?

00:01:43.080 And I'm like, no, I'm quite all right, but thank you anyway.

00:01:47.140 The thing that I did watch, though, was Aaron O'Toole's speech,

00:01:51.560 which was really the first of its kind for him to address conservatives

00:01:56.520 since becoming the leader of the conservative party back in August.

00:02:01.160 Yes, it's actually quite a while ago now.

00:02:03.060 Aaron O'Toole has been the leader of the conservatives for just over 200 days.

00:02:07.680 And in that time, he's not actually seen a honeymoon period,

00:02:11.860 as is so often the case with new leaders.

00:02:13.920 He hasn't seen a bump in the polls.

00:02:15.320 In fact, he has very high unfavorables,

00:02:18.520 which suggests that the people that do know who he is aren't necessarily thrilled.

00:02:22.940 Now, I know that CBC is doing lots of hand-wringing about this

00:02:26.140 and trying to basically spell out the death sentence to Aaron O'Toole's political career,

00:02:30.960 but I should say that people in politics in Canada do not pay attention until the very end.

00:02:36.360 So while it might not be the be-all and end-all,

00:02:39.100 it is still something to keep in mind,

00:02:41.040 and something that, again, is certainly going to be relevant to conservatives.

00:02:45.320 So the idea is that Aaron O'Toole had this opportunity to speak not just to conservatives,

00:02:50.420 but to the country, his first big speech since taking over.

00:02:54.660 And he spoke well.

00:02:56.060 He's a good speaker.

00:02:56.920 He's engaging.

00:02:57.960 But there is a fair bit of dispute about some of the substantive points of his speech.

00:03:04.440 One of the big ones is this one.

00:03:06.660 The courage of Canadians has helped our country weather the storm of this last year.

00:03:13.060 The courage of the nurses and doctors on our front lines.

00:03:17.680 The courage of personal support workers who put their own health at risk to help our seniors.

00:03:24.020 The courage of families caring for a loved one or comforting their children.

00:03:30.780 The Conservative Party must show that we, too, have the courage to meet this extraordinary moment and change.

00:03:42.040 We have lost two elections in five and a half years.

00:03:47.000 In that time, we've had four leaders.

00:03:50.400 We must present new ideas, not make the same arguments,

00:03:55.100 hoping that maybe this time more Canadians will come around to our position.

00:03:59.540 Now, I must admit, I find the train of thought on this one to be a little bit difficult to follow.

00:04:04.140 He seems to be saying that because nurses and doctors and other people have courage to go to their jobs during the pandemic,

00:04:11.540 which is true, conservatives need to have the courage to change the way that they run in campaigns.

00:04:18.240 I don't quite see the connection there.

00:04:20.580 But nevertheless, the question that is very easily raised after that is change in what way?

00:04:27.320 Change in what way?

00:04:28.220 How are the Conservatives supposed to change in Aaron O'Toole's view?

00:04:32.500 And what was interesting is that he was asked about that at a Q&A that took place the next day,

00:04:38.760 in which someone said, OK, you say we have to change.

00:04:41.860 You didn't tell us what that change is going to be.

00:04:45.280 So, Mr. O'Toole, what's that change going to be?

00:04:48.940 We have to have the courage to change.

00:04:51.900 That means we need to reach out and grow support.

00:04:54.680 As I've said, I want more Canadians seeing a Conservative stare in the mirror.

00:04:57.820 If they're concerned about the debt I just talked about, if they're concerned about the unemployment

00:05:02.420 and the crisis and the mental health toll, the pandemic, if they're concerned that Canada's in 50th place or so in the vaccine rollout.

00:05:11.480 A hundred years ago this year, we discovered insulin and we're world leaders and have been in biosciences.

00:05:15.820 And now we have to rely on other people and even take vaccines from a fund for developing countries because Mr. Trudeau didn't plan, didn't make sure we were ready.

00:05:28.040 So, we need, as part of our change, to reach out, but we also have to recognize we can't wage another election just hoping that people come to our point of view on certain issues.

00:05:42.080 I want us to have a serious and comprehensive approach on climate change.

00:05:45.960 That is not the tax approach of Mr. Trudeau that drives jobs away and hurts low-income families, but a plan that will get emissions down while we champion job growth across the country.

00:05:57.960 We need to show that we can be more welcoming to people that haven't voted for us before.

00:06:03.820 As I said, union members who maybe thought we had squabbles in the past, we're reaching out.

00:06:10.640 We're reaching out to the LGBTQ community.

00:06:13.900 I've always stood up.

00:06:15.620 We've got passionate advocates in our caucus, like Eric Duncan, talking about the unfair blood ban.

00:06:22.460 We need to show that more Canadians can have their concerns, their worries, their values reflected in our party.

00:06:31.200 So, the takeaway from that seems to be we have to be welcoming and open and find new ways to reach out and communicate, but also one specific policy.

00:06:41.380 In fact, there was only one specific policy that was named in that response about how and why the Conservative Party of Canada needs to change, and that was on climate change.

00:06:52.320 And I'm going to talk about that for a few moments now because here's what Aaron O'Toole said on this issue.

00:06:59.020 There's been a lot of speculation about what I'm going to say about climate change in this speech.

00:07:03.800 To those who are expecting a dramatic moment, I'm afraid you'll be disappointed.

00:07:09.260 But I will say this.

00:07:11.140 From the first days of my campaign to lead our party, I've said two things consistently.

00:07:17.820 One, we all want a green future for our children.

00:07:21.940 We cannot ignore the reality of climate change.

00:07:25.820 The debate is over.

00:07:27.820 And I will not allow 338 candidates to defend against the lie from the Liberals that we are a party of climate change deniers.

00:07:37.620 We will have a plan to address climate change.

00:07:41.160 It will be comprehensive.

00:07:42.860 And it will be serious.

00:07:44.440 I have to go back to that first thing he said about there had been, like, you know, a lot of speculation about it.

00:07:50.760 I heard precisely zero speculation leading up to that speech about, oh, I wonder what Aaron O'Toole is going to say about climate change.

00:07:57.560 Other people may have been asking the question.

00:07:59.320 I wasn't.

00:07:59.940 That's fine.

00:08:00.820 But he says the debate is over.

00:08:03.860 And, oh, yes, it was.

00:08:05.180 Fast forward to the very next morning after Aaron O'Toole said that and the debate was over indeed.

00:08:11.160 Conservative Party of Canada, convention delegates, vote against adding the line climate change is real and that the party is willing to act to the Conservative Party of Canada's official policy.

00:08:24.420 Now, this was very easily looked at by the mainstream media as a rebuke of Aaron O'Toole.

00:08:30.600 CBC was going crazy over it, the Toronto Star, etc.

00:08:34.340 And understandably, the juxtaposition is one that is too rich to ignore.

00:08:38.480 You have, on one hand, the Conservative leader saying, yes, climate change is real.

00:08:42.760 And on the next day, his member saying, no, it isn't.

00:08:47.220 And to be fair, voting against including that in party policy doesn't mean that the 54% of people who voted against it believe it is not real.

00:08:55.740 But if so or if not, they still don't believe that it's real strongly enough that they want that to become a plank in the party's policy book.

00:09:05.120 Now, I'm going to get boring for just a moment here because people that haven't been involved in this process don't necessarily know.

00:09:11.440 The policy guide, and we talked about this last week on the show with Scott Hayward, it means different things to different people.

00:09:18.400 In one hand, it's not anything that binds the leader of the party.

00:09:22.480 He can make the platform whatever he wants.

00:09:24.520 And certainly, if the Conservatives form government, he can do whatever he wants.

00:09:27.680 But at the same point, it is a reflection of the party membership.

00:09:32.160 It's a reflection of the party's grassroots.

00:09:34.940 In this case, that party being the Conservative Party of Canada.

00:09:39.260 So when these votes happen, the votes on policy matter more than the policy itself.

00:09:44.380 Because in a lot of cases, policies are on the books that haven't really been re-evaluated in quite some time.

00:09:49.940 But here you have a very marked change.

00:09:52.500 On one hand, yes, it's real.

00:09:54.240 On the other hand, we don't want to make that party policy.

00:09:56.780 And it brings to mind a line that my friend Mark Stein has said time and time again.

00:10:02.380 Which is that it is easier for the base to get itself a new elite than it is for the elite to get itself a new base.

00:10:09.740 And what this means is that it's a lot easier for a membership or a base of a party to find a new leader

00:10:16.280 than it is for a leader to try to remake or reshape the base.

00:10:20.500 And there's a concern in what Aaron O'Toole was saying on the weekend.

00:10:24.500 That Aaron O'Toole is trying to fundamentally alter the makeup of the party, which just doesn't work.

00:10:31.060 You can't do it.

00:10:32.460 Especially in a country like Canada, in which it's party members that determine who the leader is and not some open primary system.

00:10:40.060 So Aaron O'Toole wants to say that he's the guy that is going to break with tradition among Conservatives.

00:10:45.760 He's going to stand up for climate change.

00:10:47.440 He's going to say it's real.

00:10:48.480 He's going to tackle it.

00:10:49.420 But not in the Justin Trudeau way.

00:10:51.760 He's not going to do it through a carbon tax.

00:10:54.100 Well, the problem is that most methods are taxes in different forms.

00:11:01.540 And remember that a carbon tax is a tax on pollution, but it's a tax on industry.

00:11:07.960 It's a tax on productivity.

00:11:09.320 It's a tax on anything that has to be manufactured or shipped using hydrocarbon.

00:11:13.660 So pretty much anything, not pretty much anything, absolutely anything and everything.

00:11:17.980 When people talk about, oh, well, we're only going to go after large industrial emitters, which is something that I think most Conservatives are more open to, you're still targeting industry.

00:11:29.060 And you're still targeting industry in a way where that money has to be shouldered by someone.

00:11:33.740 And plot twist, companies are not taking it out of their own bottom line.

00:11:37.380 They are passing it on to consumers or making it back in some other way.

00:11:41.300 So even plans that are against a carbon tax, but supporting a carbon tax tend to support a carbon tax.

00:11:50.220 I know it sounds circular, right?

00:11:51.780 So this is the problem with it.

00:11:53.400 When anyone talks about, well, we believe this is a big issue, but we don't want to go after it Justin Trudeau's way.

00:11:59.140 You're still oftentimes ceding the ground.

00:12:01.680 So I don't blame Conservative members for saying we don't want to wrap our party around this.

00:12:06.800 And to be fair to Aaron O'Toole, he said in his response that, you know, he also believes jobs are more important, that you can't have a clean and green future if no one is working.

00:12:16.960 But I think the problem is that most Conservatives, and I would say a lot of Canadians, view jumping whole hog into the climate change alarmism narrative as being antithetical to standing up for jobs.

00:12:29.340 I mean, this is the whole conflict that we've seen throughout a lot of those Great Reset types, where they just are thrilled at how great the pandemic's been for the environment.

00:12:38.120 Oh, yeah, people aren't driving to work, so the roads are clear, people are getting bicycles.

00:12:42.760 I was reading a story just this morning, as a matter of fact, talking about the major surge in bicycles.

00:12:48.620 Well, yeah, because people have more time on their hands, given that they're not employed.

00:12:51.880 So we should not be celebrating this.

00:12:55.560 And that's the problem, is that there are a lot of people that would absolutely write off the economy for the benefit, or at least their perceived benefit, of the environment.

00:13:05.960 And that's why this has become such a sensitive issue.

00:13:10.040 Now, Aaron O'Toole believes what he believes.

00:13:12.980 And that's fine.

00:13:13.820 My issue is not him believing what he believes.

00:13:16.500 My issue is him trying to tell the party that he represents, that he leads what it believes, and getting it wrong.

00:13:25.300 That's, I guess, there's no way to put it.

00:13:27.040 He got it wrong.

00:13:27.940 Now, Fred DeLore, who I've known for many years, I've got a lot of respect for Fred.

00:13:31.460 I like him.

00:13:32.320 He is working on the conservative campaign.

00:13:35.900 Fred DeLore was trying to say to the media that the party didn't actually vote the way it voted on this.

00:13:41.940 Fred said on Twitter, the Conservative Party policy document already has a section on climate change.

00:13:47.820 And as Aaron O'Toole has said, the debate is over, and we need a real plan that works, not Trudeau's carbon tax.

00:13:53.920 And what the section actually says is something that I think is entirely valid.

00:13:58.060 It says, quote,

00:13:59.000 In order to have a strong economy and maintain good health, Canada must have strong, coordinated, and achievable environmental policies.

00:14:08.140 Nothing wrong with that at all.

00:14:09.420 And in fact, that's a lot better than the one that was voted on this weekend that basically tries to pit deniers versus alarmists with little room for nuance,

00:14:19.020 and also little understanding that environmental policy is a lot broader than just climate change.

00:14:25.560 Global warming is one particular issue that's been put forward.

00:14:29.100 It's not the be-all and end-all.

00:14:31.100 And a lot of the times, conservatives need to tell this story a lot more.

00:14:35.160 Conservation, respect for the environment, stewardship, all of these things are completely valid areas in which conservatives have typically done better than those on the left.

00:14:46.880 And this is why development, especially in the oil and gas sector, has often been done with the environmental considerations front and center.

00:14:56.000 Carbon tax is a simplistic way that puts really the PR battle ahead of actual science and actual policy and doesn't do that particularly well either.

00:15:08.760 So the idea of the conservatives saying we're against Justin Trudeau's carbon tax, yes, that's great.

00:15:15.540 I want them to be against all other iterations of that as well.

00:15:19.200 Carbon tax, cap and trade, and even some of the schemes that target so-called high industrial emitters.

00:15:26.180 A lot of these are all just different sides of the same coin.

00:15:29.400 And this is going to be very key.

00:15:31.680 On Thursday, the Supreme Court of Canada is issuing its decision in the carbon tax challenges put forward by Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Ontario.

00:15:40.560 Now, this is a particularly important case for a couple of reasons.

00:15:44.200 Number one, it's going to be the highest ruling in the land on whether the carbon tax is constitutional.

00:15:51.080 But it will also set the tone as to whether this is a political battle or whether it was simply a legal battle.

00:15:58.700 And the reason I say that is because if the Trudeau carbon tax is struck down as unconstitutional,

00:16:04.980 well, all of a sudden we revert back to having no federally mandated carbon tax.

00:16:10.120 It's an area of provincial jurisdiction.

00:16:12.320 So this doesn't mean that if you're in BC, your carbon tax is going away.

00:16:15.960 It just means that the federal government can impose one on provinces like Ontario, Alberta, Saskatchewan,

00:16:22.580 and to some extent, New Brunswick.

00:16:24.800 Like Manitoba is a little bit iffy, but can't impose one on provinces that don't want one.

00:16:29.880 If the carbon tax is upheld, that does not mean it's good policy.

00:16:34.880 That doesn't mean Canada is stuck with it.

00:16:37.020 It means that it's constitutional and it is in the political realm for it to be stricken or upheld.

00:16:43.780 And this is so key because I actually covered the Saskatchewan case.

00:16:48.560 I covered the Ontario case and I covered the Supreme Court case.

00:16:52.740 And the judges, the lawyers, all of them were saying, we're not litigating climate change.

00:16:56.940 We're not litigating whether this is good policy.

00:16:59.000 We are solely determining whether this is constitutional.

00:17:02.700 And it can be constitutional and bad policy.

00:17:05.700 It could be unconstitutional and good policy.

00:17:07.980 It could be unconstitutional and bad policy.

00:17:10.060 It's bad policy.

00:17:10.860 But I digress.

00:17:12.040 It can be any of these things.

00:17:13.560 They too are not at all related.

00:17:16.520 So even if the Supreme Court upholds it,

00:17:19.100 and I tend to be just so pessimistic about court decisions that that's how I assume it's going to go.

00:17:23.900 But even if the Supreme Court upholds it,

00:17:25.960 it still means that an Aaron O'Toole or some other politician can come out and say,

00:17:30.220 no, we do not want this.

00:17:32.460 And I'm going to hold Aaron O'Toole to what he told me at the Independent Press Gallery leadership

00:17:37.180 debate, which turned into the fireside chats back in the summer,

00:17:40.620 which was that under his plan, he wants to give it to provincial jurisdiction.

00:17:45.020 And even if a provincial government says we want to do absolutely nothing,

00:17:48.840 that would be respected.

00:17:50.920 Something to keep in mind.

00:17:52.080 We've got to take a break.

00:17:53.280 When we come back, more of The Andrew Lawton Show here on True North.

00:17:57.100 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:17:59.860 Welcome back to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:18:06.460 This is one of these stories that is shameful and frustrating,

00:18:10.420 but at the same time, you can't help but find it just completely and utterly hilarious.

00:18:14.400 And you'll understand what I mean in just a couple of moments here.

00:18:17.520 Comes from the Washington Post, an exclusive scoop that came out, I believe, on Saturday.

00:18:22.300 Biden administration considers flying migrants to states near the Canadian border for processing.

00:18:28.340 Now, the rationale behind this is that the Biden administration,

00:18:32.940 or specifically the United States actually,

00:18:35.340 has been dealing with a surge in migrants coming across the Rio Grande

00:18:39.940 into the southern United States.

00:18:42.280 And the rationale is that they think it's now open season.

00:18:44.600 Trump is gone.

00:18:45.600 The wall's not there in full.

00:18:47.220 So everyone can just waltz right in,

00:18:49.660 in such large numbers that the U.S. is having trouble processing them

00:18:53.400 and keeping them on track to their goals and targets and all of these things.

00:18:57.320 And the result of this, of course, is, you know, kids in cages,

00:19:00.800 although no one cares when it's not the Trump administration

00:19:03.320 that is presiding over the children in cages.

00:19:06.360 And now everyone is just doing apologetics for the Biden immigration policies.

00:19:11.280 But again, we go back to the subject matter at hand.

00:19:14.420 This is such an overwhelming number that they need to get people processed elsewhere.

00:19:20.140 So what do they want to do?

00:19:21.820 Ship them to Customs and Border Protection Outposts

00:19:24.460 in border states like Montana and North Dakota and Michigan.

00:19:28.940 Now, when I read this story, my thought is,

00:19:32.600 well, I wonder if that's just because they know that if they just drop them off

00:19:35.580 at the Canadian border, everyone will be able to walk right into Canada

00:19:38.640 and then they're no longer the U.S.'s problem.

00:19:41.060 And I'm not saying that's deliberately the plan,

00:19:43.160 but that's certainly my read of it.

00:19:45.000 And you know what?

00:19:45.740 If you're Joe Biden, that's actually pretty good policy.

00:19:48.320 Well, up in Canada, they have that Justin Trudeau guy.

00:19:50.800 He doesn't really care about his border.

00:19:52.620 We can just threaten to deport them, drop them off at the 49th parallel,

00:19:56.060 and boom, they self-deport.

00:19:58.120 They're Canada's problem. 0.92

00:19:59.240 We don't have to do anything with it.

00:20:01.220 USA, USA, USA.

00:20:03.600 Not saying that's the plan, but pretty good.

00:20:05.540 The reason they want to go up there is because with the Canada-U.S. border

00:20:09.100 having been closed for pretty much a year,

00:20:11.520 all of the Customs and Border Protection officials

00:20:13.940 up on the American-Canadian border have considerably little to do.

00:20:18.780 And that border closure was extended yet again,

00:20:22.360 now going through to April,

00:20:24.600 at which point it will likely be renewed again and again and again.

00:20:29.160 54 weeks into two weeks to flatten the curve,

00:20:32.640 Canada-U.S. border closed,

00:20:34.540 flights still restricted very heavily,

00:20:36.800 two-week quarantine, hotel quarantine,

00:20:39.060 all of these measures with no end in sight.

00:20:41.860 And the only way you seem to be able to get into Canada or the U.S.

00:20:45.080 is if you are an illegal migrant.

00:20:47.440 And that's the real injustice in this.

00:20:50.320 The border has been closed to people like me and my wife,

00:20:53.320 if we want to just take a day trip over to Port Huron.

00:20:56.000 The border has been closed to a lot of other families

00:20:58.560 who have to see family members on other sides of the border.

00:21:02.460 The border's been closed to anyone except those who waltz in on Roxham Road, 1.00

00:21:06.480 those who travel across the Rio Grande,

00:21:08.760 and those ones, the border's open for them.

00:21:11.720 And this is something that countries need to grapple with.

00:21:17.600 And whether you like Trump or didn't like Trump,

00:21:19.620 Trump understood the problem that immigration was posing.

00:21:23.040 Stephen Harper understood the importance of orderly and safe migration,

00:21:28.360 legal migration.

00:21:29.480 Justin Trudeau doesn't.

00:21:31.560 Justin Trudeau has never recanted laying out the red carpet for illegal immigrants 1.00

00:21:36.240 by saying, Canada is your home.

00:21:38.040 Welcome to Canada.

00:21:38.940 That infamous tweet.

00:21:39.820 Never has he walked that back.

00:21:42.300 And even now in the course of the pandemic,

00:21:44.260 when the government, it seemed like,

00:21:45.900 was going to start just turning people around,

00:21:48.180 it's amazing how that hasn't actually happened the way it was promised.

00:21:53.020 And I would also point out an interesting stat here.

00:21:55.440 In January of this year, January of 2021,

00:21:58.940 Canada admitted 26,600 new permanent residents.

00:22:03.460 So 26,600 people to Canada that were new immigrants to Canada effectively.

00:22:09.020 Now that is a 10% increase over the number that were admitted in January of 2020,

00:22:15.580 which as you may remember was the before times, before lockdown.

00:22:19.100 The government has dramatically increased its immigration targets

00:22:22.540 with a plan to bring in about 400,000 immigrants a year.

00:22:26.360 I want you to think about that for a moment.

00:22:28.440 Because Canadians, as mentioned, still can't just travel across the border

00:22:31.720 because Canada and the U.S. have a deal that prohibits people just going back and forth.

00:22:36.540 Canadian families are, again, separated in some cases by the Canadian border.

00:22:40.660 But the government's role is about increasing immigration to make up for lost time.

00:22:46.440 Which just seems particularly unfair when the borders are open for one group and not for another.

00:22:51.720 Now I would say let's open up for travel.

00:22:54.980 Let's allow people to travel.

00:22:56.120 Let's allow people to live their lives without subjecting them to Orwellian travel measures

00:23:00.780 and other restrictions.

00:23:02.000 But that's not what the government is doing.

00:23:04.520 We've got to take a break.

00:23:05.680 When we come back, more of The Andrew Lawton Show here on True North.

00:23:10.620 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:23:14.940 Welcome back to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:23:17.340 We've been talking a lot about Aaron O'Toole's comments in his speech last weekend

00:23:22.560 at the Conservative Leadership Convention.

00:23:24.980 We also, as mentioned, have the carbon tax court ruling coming down from the Supreme Court on Thursday.

00:23:30.820 A lot of the subtext around energy discussions is on energy independence.

00:23:35.600 And there's no denying it.

00:23:36.840 This isn't just some standard little political fight like anything else we see.

00:23:41.160 But there's a bigger agenda that's often at work here from people that are hell-bent on not just minimizing,

00:23:47.400 but in some cases destroying the energy sector in Canada.

00:23:51.540 And one aspect of this that hasn't gotten a lot of coverage is the battle in the Arctic region.

00:23:56.640 But I want to talk about oil and gas sector development in the energy sector a little bit more broadly here.

00:24:01.660 Deidre Garrick is an independent energy advocate who's done tremendous research on this

00:24:06.520 that you'd think the mainstream media would be doing, but certainly aren't.

00:24:10.140 She joins me now.

00:24:11.360 Deidre, thanks for coming on.

00:24:12.580 Good to talk to you.

00:24:13.280 Well, thank you for having me, Andrew.

00:24:14.940 Now, I've had the opportunity to hear you speak about some of your work a couple of months back.

00:24:19.420 And I said I wanted to get you on the show because you're delving into things that,

00:24:23.300 as I mentioned, a lot of people simply aren't.

00:24:26.260 What got you looking into this, first off?

00:24:28.260 Well, actually, it was a friend who had mentioned to me that they have some evidence to suggest

00:24:34.800 that perhaps there is some sort of concerted effort happening in the Arctic to constrain

00:24:41.840 or just choke off shipping in the Arctic altogether, which had sort of come out as a result of Bill

00:24:50.120 C-48, the West Coast tanker ban.

00:24:52.840 And so over a number of months, I sort of started delving into things, just really doing simple

00:25:00.680 Google searches.

00:25:02.280 So you're absolutely right.

00:25:03.620 I mean, this is something any media outlet could have found.

00:25:08.480 And so once I started to sort of peel back the layers of the onion, then I could start to see

00:25:14.400 that there really was, you know, very material funding going to some well-known EMGO groups.

00:25:22.120 I could see that, yes, there is potentially something here.

00:25:27.240 They're quite sophisticated in that they're not always entirely transparent about what their

00:25:33.320 plans are.

00:25:34.560 But once I discovered that the World Wildlife Fund had received about $900,000 US in funding

00:25:43.840 from the Switzerland-based Oak Foundation with the express purpose of trying to put in regulations

00:25:51.420 to constrain shipping and to stock development in the Arctic, I knew that there was a story

00:25:56.860 here.

00:25:57.100 There was something more going on than what people might see.

00:26:01.380 And I think, as we all know, with the egress constraints, pipeline constraints going east

00:26:08.840 and west, many people in the oil and gas sector and energy sector, you know, it could be transmission

00:26:15.200 lines, et cetera, are looking at different options, including the Arctic.

00:26:20.140 So the Port of Churchill and Port Nelson have been on the radar for a number of years.

00:26:27.740 And so that was the other reason.

00:26:28.900 I said, well, you know, if there is an effort to constrain shipping out of the Arctic, maybe

00:26:34.360 this just isn't an option that we have.

00:26:37.380 And it appears that there could be something here.

00:26:41.720 And so I'm trying to sort of understand what is happening up there.

00:26:46.640 One thing we saw, this is going back to, I think, early 2020 with Tech Frontier, is that

00:26:52.100 a lot of companies just don't want to deal with political fights.

00:26:55.380 They want to come.

00:26:56.160 They're in the building industry.

00:26:57.800 They're not in the politics industry.

00:26:59.580 So the resistance you get from activist groups, well-funded activist groups, as you note,

00:27:04.400 can actually have an effect if companies are finding that they're having to spend all their

00:27:08.860 time on lobbying and political capital and not actually putting things in the ground.

00:27:14.840 Absolutely.

00:27:15.760 I think there is a real misconception out there that oil and gas industry, the oil and gas

00:27:21.580 industry, you know, big oil, as it's often termed, spends millions and millions of dollars

00:27:28.080 lobbying and fighting to just sort of develop freely and destroy the environment.

00:27:34.420 And that's just simply not true.

00:27:36.780 We know that EMGOs have received millions of dollars in funding with the express purpose

00:27:43.520 of trying to stop development.

00:27:45.420 Oil and gas companies are doing what they can to run their business, to develop their business.

00:27:50.800 And so you're right.

00:27:53.020 Lobbying and activism advocacy is not a strength of the industry.

00:27:59.500 I always say the industry has never had to advertise to sell its products.

00:28:03.400 So we've never had to be advocates and try to explain why that product is valuable.

00:28:10.760 And so I think that's why the messaging maybe has gotten away and why there has been such

00:28:16.340 successful pushback.

00:28:18.220 And one point as well, just on that dollar value.

00:28:21.620 So this is just one particular grant that you've mentioned, the World Wildlife Fund getting

00:28:26.540 $881,000.

00:28:27.860 In a lot of cases, that's more than is going towards promoting these projects.

00:28:33.820 Oh, absolutely.

00:28:35.720 You know, I'm an independent energy advocate.

00:28:38.760 I've done my writing, my research, my presenting all on my own time and dime.

00:28:45.380 I haven't been paid.

00:28:47.460 And there's many of us like me out there just trying to educate and get the message out.

00:28:53.100 So let me ask then about the Arctic specifically, because we often hear so much of the discourse

00:28:59.720 around a lot of the more lower Canada, well, not in the sense of Quebec, but lower Canada

00:29:05.220 in the sense of geographically projects, you know, Keystone XL, Enbridge, Trans Mountain.

00:29:10.640 What's happening in the Arctic?

00:29:12.160 Well, there are two groups right now.

00:29:16.740 One of them is called the Peacemaker Pipeline Project, which is led by the First People's 1.00

00:29:22.680 Pipeline.

00:29:24.200 They received $500,000 in funding from the Saskatchewan government in September of last year.

00:29:31.580 And that's to look at the feasibility of building an energy corridor to the port of Churchill.

00:29:40.320 Now, there's also another group called the NISTENON group that is looking at building an energy

00:29:47.060 corridor of pipelines, transmission lines, as well as rail to Port Nelson.

00:29:54.440 So we know that there is an active interest in the energy sector in general, not just oil

00:30:01.320 and gas and gas, but energy, to find some egress options to go up to the Arctic.

00:30:07.580 However, we can see through what's publicly disclosed on the NGO's websites that they are actively

00:30:16.060 looking to constrain shipping, stop any sort of development, particularly oil and gas.

00:30:22.600 That's, yeah, they're very, very transparent about wanting to stop oil and gas development.

00:30:27.720 And they also want to get rid of all diesel and heating oil use in the Arctic and replace

00:30:34.460 it with renewables.

00:30:35.900 For the most part, wind and solar are listed as the two main sources.

00:30:40.180 But we do know that they are trying to replace any surveyed diesel or heating oil stoves or

00:30:49.360 heating sources with biomass.

00:30:52.520 Now, the other thing is, we know that they are actively working with the government to

00:30:58.740 try and implement marine protected areas, marine refuges, create culturally significant marine

00:31:06.420 areas, anything that will end up constraining shipping, if not completely choking it off altogether.

00:31:14.980 There is a map that I found online that has the entire Hudson Strait listed as a culturally

00:31:25.860 significant marine area.

00:31:27.560 And so, you know, that could potentially mean no shipping there, no, no, no traffic of any

00:31:35.380 sort, meaning that if you have any sort of an energy corridor to Churchill or Port Nelson,

00:31:43.380 you can't get in or out.

00:31:45.020 So it really renders all of that work futile.

00:31:49.020 One thing that I would ask about here, because a lot of the language around this is couched

00:31:55.140 in terms of very good sounding things, you know, significant marine areas, marine refuge,

00:32:00.620 marine protected areas.

00:32:01.760 No one wants to think of destroying wildlife and natural habitats in pursuit of money.

00:32:08.000 What's the response to that?

00:32:09.580 Well, honestly, the oil and gas sector in particular has been known.

00:32:16.220 It's very, we're very transparent about it.

00:32:18.880 We do spend a lot on environmental protection.

00:32:22.260 I think there is a huge misunderstanding that, you know, the oil and gas sector just goes in

00:32:28.040 and destroys the environment and just doesn't care, gets what it wants and it just walks away.

00:32:34.620 And that's just simply not true.

00:32:36.540 In Canada, there's a lot of really strict regulations, even though it's regulated by province.

00:32:43.440 You know, our three main oil and gas producing provinces, BC, Alberta and Saskatchewan, do a

00:32:48.440 very stringent environmental regulation.

00:32:51.440 And so, you know, I think it's just a misconception that we don't care.

00:32:58.260 You know, we have tankers that are very sophisticated, that prevent spills.

00:33:06.840 And so I think to go out and say that, you know, we have to cut all of this off is really,

00:33:13.820 I think, misguided and misinforming the public in general.

00:33:18.720 And one point as well, to bring it into the realm of federal politics, is that the federal

00:33:23.280 government, which we know has has never met a regulation on the energy sector it didn't

00:33:27.720 like, has set a target, which again, does not get a lot of coverage at all, as far as

00:33:32.160 how much of Canada's water it wants to preserve and protect, again, sounds noble on the surface,

00:33:37.660 but they want to increase that.

00:33:39.020 And when you talk about that map, which we put up on the screen, that will only shrink

00:33:44.060 the areas in which this sector can work.

00:33:46.380 Yes, absolutely.

00:33:49.060 And I want to be very clear, I support conservation, or even support diverse energy mix where it

00:33:57.900 makes sense.

00:33:58.880 So this isn't about me just being very like pro development with no consequences.

00:34:05.880 And I think that I'm fairly representative of the oil and gas sector in general, but that's

00:34:11.460 not, that's not what I want.

00:34:14.300 And so, yes, I think there are very legitimate reasons to put certain regulations and conservation

00:34:23.380 areas in place.

00:34:25.420 However, I agree with you, when we start to just create these ginormous conservation areas,

00:34:34.360 then it really does impact development.

00:34:37.140 And that impacts all Canadians.

00:34:38.860 You know, if indeed there is no development allowed up in the Arctic, that really does

00:34:44.220 impact the ability for Indigenous communities to get jobs and to prosper.

00:34:51.660 And I think that that is part of the conversation that is left out when these groups go up and

00:34:58.040 try to, you know, get rid of oil and gas development and implement renewables and other things like

00:35:05.640 that.

00:35:06.600 Well, that's actually a tremendously important point, because in the media, the discourse

00:35:11.220 around this is that you've got oil and gas sector versus Indigenous communities, because

00:35:16.020 you do have a few Indigenous communities, especially out in British Columbia, that are very much

00:35:20.980 devoted against these sorts of projects.

00:35:24.540 But the Indigenous communities where the projects are taking place almost exclusively are supporting

00:35:31.340 them.

00:35:31.620 And that seems to be true in the North as well.

00:35:34.920 Yeah, absolutely.

00:35:35.860 I think that there have been some very courageous, vocal Indigenous leaders who have spoken up

00:35:42.700 in support to try to say, look, there is another side to this story.

00:35:47.640 You might have seen that there was a leader that just spoke out against Jane Fonda protesting line

00:35:56.920 three in the oil sands, Stephen Buffalo from the Indian Resource Council.

00:36:02.720 Yes, yeah, he's a really strong advocate.

00:36:05.800 So we are seeing that, but I think those voices are not being heard enough.

00:36:12.220 They're not being given the platform to present a different side to this.

00:36:17.040 And I think that's a disservice to the conversation in general.

00:36:21.820 Deidre Garrick is an energy advocate talking about the stories that more people should. 0.89

00:36:26.120 So happy to play my small part by talking about them with her.

00:36:29.420 Deidre, thank you so much for coming on.

00:36:30.960 Great to speak with you.

00:36:32.380 Well, thank you so much, Andrew.

00:36:33.520 I really appreciate this.

00:36:35.220 It's amazing how many of these stories just are not told.

00:36:39.060 And you have to wonder what the reason for that is.

00:36:41.960 In some cases, people in the mainstream media, they are going to go after the most vocal.

00:36:46.280 And the most vocal are the people that are hellbent on destroying the energy sector.

00:36:49.700 When you have tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of dollars that are devoted

00:36:53.820 to fighting against development, that side has public relations people.

00:36:58.720 That side has marketing.

00:37:00.120 That side is in your face.

00:37:01.840 And people like Deidre simply aren't.

00:37:04.060 But Stephen Buffalo, here's a guy who's talked about the importance of standing up for Indigenous

00:37:08.200 jobs, Indigenous self-government, Indigenous self-sustenance as far as the economic potential

00:37:13.460 that these projects bring these communities.

00:37:15.620 And gets very little coverage in the mainstream media.

00:37:19.640 And I think shame on the media for not wanting to talk about the success story that is Canada's

00:37:24.680 energy sector.

00:37:25.440 The only time it fails are when the government is stomping on it with its boot.

00:37:30.260 We've got to wrap things up.

00:37:31.500 But again, my thanks to Deidre Garrick and all of you for tuning into the show.

00:37:34.900 We'll talk to you in a couple days' time with more of Canada's most irreverent talk show.

00:37:39.400 Thank you, God bless, and good day.

00:37:40.860 Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:37:43.360 Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.

Juno News - March 23, 2021

Erin O’Toole Takes Aim at “Deniers”

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