Juno News - Establishment is against Danielle Smith’s gender policies – but parents aren’t

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:05.540 This is The Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:00:12.740 Hey, welcome along to The Andrew Lawton Show, Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show here on True North.

00:00:19.020 It is Monday, February 5th, and I'm still, as you can see, not in the regular studio,

00:00:23.780 although I've had a lot of praise for the Klaus Schwab chair that I've been using for the last week on the program.

00:00:30.040 So maybe I'll have to find a way to smuggle this back into my bag when I return from Washington, D.C.

00:00:35.440 I have been covering the climate change free speech trial of Mark Stein.

00:00:40.200 We'll have a bit of an update on that with Phelan McAleer a little bit later on in the show.

00:00:44.380 We'll also have Chris Sims and the latest installment of our Unjust Transition series.

00:00:49.180 A bit of a busy show to start the week.

00:00:51.100 But I wanted to begin following up on the policy that was announced that has sent a wave of discontent by the establishment and the left,

00:01:01.140 but a wave of something far more positive to a lot of people.

00:01:04.700 And I mentioned last week that I would be spending a bit more time on it this week,

00:01:08.920 just because last week with all these conflicting priorities and other things we had to cover,

00:01:13.520 I didn't have a chance to dig into this the way that I wanted.

00:01:16.160 And I should also tell you on, I believe, Wednesday's show,

00:01:20.020 I'm going to have a sit down with Alberta Premier Daniel Smith on this,

00:01:23.820 specifically this as well as a couple of other issues.

00:01:27.660 So that's going to be coming up this week,

00:01:29.800 which was also part of the reason I wanted to kick off this show,

00:01:33.200 talking about the announcement last week in support of parental rights,

00:01:36.660 but also in opposition to a lot of the more radical transgender ideology we've seen being passed off as policy by activists.

00:01:46.640 Here was a little bit of Danielle Smith's announcement.

00:01:49.480 After much discussion, the government caucus and I have therefore decided to implement the following policies and guidelines

00:01:55.440 as it relates to transgender minors and athletes,

00:01:58.560 including additional supports to assist transgender adults to secure the health care they need

00:02:03.440 and the counselling support for youth identifying as transgender

00:02:06.680 to ensure they can successfully work their way through their complex feelings and emotions as they grow to adulthood.

00:02:13.260 First, on the issue of gender reassignment treatments for minors.

00:02:17.720 For minors age 17 and under, top and bottom gender reassignment surgeries will not be permitted.

00:02:24.660 For children age 15 and under,

00:02:27.180 puberty blockers and hormone therapies for the purpose of gender reassignment or affirmation will also not be permitted.

00:02:33.140 With the exception of those who've already commenced their treatment at this time.

00:02:37.600 Now, no sensible person who hears that would hear rabid, ideological, unhinged or callous rhetoric.

00:02:46.000 In fact, it's quite the opposite.

00:02:47.220 You listen to Premier Danielle Smith, you get a profound sense of compassion.

00:02:51.760 She's not taking a stab at what any individual grown-ups do.

00:02:55.660 She's talking about children and minors.

00:02:57.820 She's talking about the importance of waiting and seeing instead of just plowing ahead with irreversible surgery.

00:03:04.760 And yes, irreversible hormone therapy, which some people are trying to say is not the case, but it is.

00:03:11.100 And many experts have said these treatments can have irreversible consequences.

00:03:15.360 And then she's talking in the context of the education system about parental rights.

00:03:19.540 So, what the Alberta government has done is actually gone far beyond, in a lot of ways,

00:03:24.820 what has been proposed in New Brunswick and Saskatchewan,

00:03:28.260 which may be why it took the Alberta government so long to really come out with a cogent and cohesive policy on this.

00:03:35.700 But what credit does Danielle Smith get for trying to be moderate and nuanced and measured? 1.00

00:03:42.040 None.

00:03:42.340 This is NDP MLA Janice Irwin crying as she talks about this as though it is an existential threat to trans youth in Alberta.

00:03:56.340 To all the queer and trans youth out there,

00:03:59.660 just know that you are so loved,

00:04:02.840 and we're going to be with you for every step of this fight.

00:04:05.740 We love you so much.

00:04:07.060 Now, obviously, this is a very raw subject emotionally for Janice Irwin.

00:04:16.500 I don't want to take away from what's a very real pain that Janice seems to be experiencing there,

00:04:21.080 but it is very much misplaced.

00:04:22.940 We saw Randy Boissoneau, the Liberal Member of Parliament from Edmonton,

00:04:26.560 talk about this as being the NATO moment,

00:04:29.160 as though we need some collective defense on behalf of all LGBT people in Alberta and Canada.

00:04:35.040 Marcy Ian said she spent the whole night after Danielle's announcement

00:04:38.000 consoling gay and trans youth on the phone,

00:04:41.820 as though people were hearing what Danielle Smith said,

00:04:43.980 and the first thing they do is say,

00:04:45.320 I want to talk to a Liberal Cabinet Minister.

00:04:47.740 I know that's where I go if I'm feeling a little bit discontented with the world.

00:04:52.680 So, look, there are very real policy debates to be had here.

00:04:56.480 I know one activist, Chanel Fall, who is a former teacher in Ontario,

00:05:00.780 was concerned that Danielle Smith did not go far enough.

00:05:03.380 She was saying that Danielle Smith was trying to make nice with people

00:05:07.340 for whom there is no middle ground,

00:05:09.020 for whom there can never be any sense of compromise.

00:05:12.840 And I think the reaction to Danielle Smith has probably been making that clear

00:05:16.800 if anyone was not already aware of it.

00:05:19.980 But at the same time, I think Danielle Smith has put forward a policy that she believes in.

00:05:24.280 This is, I think, very important.

00:05:25.540 She is not a social conservative.

00:05:27.300 She's not approaching this issue from the perspective of a faith basis.

00:05:30.960 She's not approaching it from the perspective of transphobia.

00:05:34.260 In fact, I was, you know, on a radio panel with her once

00:05:36.640 when she was talking about how much she loved Caitlyn Jenner.

00:05:39.220 So, Danielle Smith is, I think, the perfect messenger for a policy like this

00:05:44.660 because she's not coming at it from a place of anything other than, I think, common sense

00:05:49.260 and representing her constituents, representing parents in Alberta.

00:05:53.500 And by the way, just to stress this point, the policies that she's proposed are incredibly popular.

00:06:00.180 Back in August, there was an Angus Reid poll that found about 78% of memory serves,

00:06:06.240 78% of parents believe that they should have to consent to their child changing their name

00:06:11.980 or gender in school.

00:06:13.820 78%.

00:06:14.380 Do you realize how difficult it is to find a coalition on a political issue in this country

00:06:19.440 that has three quarters to four fifths of the country already on side?

00:06:25.500 That is incredible.

00:06:26.860 So, that proves that this is beyond a left-right issue.

00:06:30.680 This is one that parents of all different political stripes believe in.

00:06:34.340 It's not about tolerance.

00:06:35.720 It's not about respect.

00:06:37.260 It's not about diversity.

00:06:38.240 It's just about do parents have a right to have a say in their child's education

00:06:42.620 and what's going on with their child in school.

00:06:45.940 Do you want a world in which teachers are the secret keepers of children and youth?

00:06:52.220 Teachers, government employees, do you want them to be the secret keepers?

00:06:55.800 Absolutely not, is what the majority of parents say.

00:06:59.780 So, let's not pretend that what Danielle Smith is saying here is radical

00:07:03.600 or offside with where Canadians are.

00:07:06.340 And I think if the Liberals want to make this their NATO moment,

00:07:08.860 if Janice Irwin wants to get in front of a lectern or a microphone rather 1.00

00:07:12.580 and start crying about this, I think they're going to look like the radicals.

00:07:16.440 They are going to look like the ones here that Canadians take significant issues with, 0.97

00:07:20.940 not the other way around.

00:07:23.060 We'll have more on this tomorrow and certainly more on this Wednesday

00:07:26.180 with Premier Danielle Smith.

00:07:27.780 But as promised, I wanted to do a bit of an update on this trial that's been going on now.

00:07:32.560 It's in its fourth week.

00:07:33.720 It was supposed to have been wrapped up on Thursday of last week originally,

00:07:37.720 but it's just been a glacially slow process by now.

00:07:41.560 I won't be able to even make it to the end of it

00:07:43.780 because I've got to get back to interview Danielle Smith, among other things.

00:07:47.420 I'm getting a little homesick, so I'll be heading out soon.

00:07:50.180 But I do want to get to the crux of what's happening here

00:07:54.200 because the theme last week when I was doing my daily updates

00:07:57.640 was that we have a defamation case in which there has been scant evidence,

00:08:01.920 if any, that defamation has occurred.

00:08:04.920 Defamation has a legal test that must be followed.

00:08:07.840 And one critical component of that test is that you have to show

00:08:10.940 if you are suing someone for defamation that you have suffered,

00:08:14.580 that you have incurred what are called damages.

00:08:17.360 We can't really point to any damages in this case that Michael Mann has raised

00:08:22.200 that he can attribute to that blog post by Mark Stein and Rand Simberg,

00:08:26.860 the two blog posts rather,

00:08:28.460 which has been why this has been such a perplexing case,

00:08:31.220 especially for a Canadian who's here covering some foreign judicial proceeding.

00:08:35.440 But one way I have been keeping apprised has been through

00:08:38.380 Anne McElhenney and Phelan McAleer's fantastic podcast, Climate Change on Trial.

00:08:43.160 We had Phelan on last week to talk about this,

00:08:45.100 and I thought we'd bring him back for an update on where things stand.

00:08:48.320 Phelan, good to talk to you again. Welcome back.

00:08:50.460 Thanks for having me on, Andrew.

00:08:52.120 Now, let's just start with how the process is the punishment here

00:08:55.300 because this was supposed to be done by now.

00:08:59.120 This was supposed to be wrapped up after three weeks.

00:09:01.960 It was, you know, 12 years in the making.

00:09:04.200 But the process has just been glacial.

00:09:07.440 And I'm wondering if you could speak to this a little bit

00:09:09.300 because the judge was saying on Thursday

00:09:11.540 that he still expects to have this wrapped up and done

00:09:14.700 and sent to the jury by Wednesday morning of this week.

00:09:19.040 But the problem with that, of course, is that the plaintiff's side,

00:09:23.140 Michael Mann, had effectively unlimited time to make its case.

00:09:26.420 And now the defence is being told, you've got to keep this tight.

00:09:30.300 Yeah, I'm, you know, I'm not a lawyer,

00:09:32.760 but it struck me as really unfair that Michael Mann

00:09:35.340 was able to eat into Mark Stein and Rand Simberg's time.

00:09:39.700 And therefore, they have to squeeze their defence of these allegations

00:09:45.840 into a few days, you know.

00:09:48.240 And, you know, the judge has been...

00:09:52.380 I mean, if I hear one more word about the NSF report,

00:09:55.960 I mean, this has just been the report that will not die.

00:10:00.320 And he keeps letting them bring it up.

00:10:02.780 He keeps saying it can't be in, it can be in, it can't be in.

00:10:06.340 It can be in, but why haven't you got someone to authenticate it?

00:10:10.080 And, you know, if he'd just make a decision...

00:10:12.700 Also, it's a personal bugbearer of ours,

00:10:15.380 but the jury is constantly late.

00:10:18.240 The jury is always half an hour late.

00:10:21.360 And, you know, certain members of the jury are always late.

00:10:24.760 And, you know, I don't know about Canada,

00:10:26.700 but I know in the UK or Ireland, you know,

00:10:29.980 they would have sheriff's deputies or police officers

00:10:32.740 outside the jurors' houses ready to take them in on a bench warrant

00:10:36.500 or they'd be fined or they'd be sequestered

00:10:39.040 if they were consistently late.

00:10:40.500 So it's a man is using the process to punish,

00:10:46.260 but he's been assisted by the weak judicial system.

00:10:50.920 Yeah.

00:10:51.060 And you had people like Judith Curry, 0.74

00:10:53.620 who at the end of it got to testify for, I don't know,

00:10:56.160 like half an hour on Thursday that were waiting all week

00:11:00.260 because they had expected they would be testifying

00:11:02.820 in the time allocated for the defence.

00:11:05.080 And so very disruptive, very costly.

00:11:08.480 But just enough about the process here,

00:11:10.740 I want to talk about the MVP of the week

00:11:12.600 or MBW, Most Valuable Witness, Abraham Weiner.

00:11:16.240 Oh, yeah.

00:11:16.520 This guy, I mean, you're poor.

00:11:18.360 Well, you're the poor guy

00:11:19.420 because your wife just fell in love with Abraham Weiner.

00:11:21.460 This is the professor of statistics

00:11:23.840 that I desperately wish I had as my professor of statistics

00:11:27.880 when I was in university.

00:11:29.220 He knew how to talk about this in very complex stuff

00:11:32.760 in incredibly relatable terms.

00:11:35.380 He was talking about it as sports, as music, as what else?

00:11:39.420 Well, he talked about, you know,

00:11:40.560 polling in the 2016 presidential election,

00:11:43.500 captured the jury's attention and said,

00:11:45.220 yeah, Michael Mann's work is misleading.

00:11:48.500 He said, you know, I don't know his state of mind.

00:11:50.500 I don't know why, but it's clearly misleading.

00:11:52.400 It's clearly manipulative.

00:11:53.960 And then when Michael Mann's lawyer was cross-examining him,

00:11:57.880 I couldn't even follow along

00:12:00.240 with what the argument or line of questioning was.

00:12:02.400 Could you?

00:12:03.340 No, no.

00:12:04.500 And I don't think the jury could either.

00:12:05.960 Yeah, you're right.

00:12:06.520 I mean, I know there are a lot of lawyers in that court.

00:12:09.100 I just hope at the end I'm not looking for a divorce lawyer

00:12:11.340 because my wife has, my wife has,

00:12:14.800 Anne McLean has fallen in love with Abraham Weiner.

00:12:18.340 Yeah, no, he's, I mean, when you saw Michael Mann on the stand

00:12:23.000 and you saw John Abraham on the stand,

00:12:25.800 there was a plausibility to them.

00:12:28.000 John Abraham, just for people that weren't following,

00:12:30.360 was the expert witness.

00:12:31.600 Well, sorry, they tried to call him as an expert witness.

00:12:34.180 Michael Mann did, but they wouldn't certify him

00:12:36.280 as an expert witness.

00:12:37.120 So, you know, they had a patina of, you know,

00:12:42.280 I'm an academic, kind of absent-minded.

00:12:44.320 I'm kind of slightly unworldly.

00:12:46.340 I don't know what a 501c3 is,

00:12:48.200 even though I set one up myself.

00:12:50.720 So they had that patina.

00:12:52.560 But then when Abraham Weiner got up,

00:12:54.640 you realize, ah, this is a real professor.

00:12:57.820 This is a real lecturer.

00:12:59.340 I want to, I'm literally, I felt like saying to him,

00:13:01.580 how can I get to do classes at the Wharton School of Business?

00:13:05.160 Because I want to hear you in full,

00:13:08.980 I want to be taught by you.

00:13:10.580 I want to learn things from you.

00:13:12.060 So, yeah, look, as he says,

00:13:14.820 I don't know what was in Michael Mann's mind,

00:13:18.800 but he said it was manipulative.

00:13:20.980 And he's talking about it from a scientific point of view,

00:13:23.200 manipulative.

00:13:23.680 And, you know, very simple.

00:13:26.000 If you know your end,

00:13:28.820 what he was pointing out,

00:13:30.340 everyone knew what the temperature records were

00:13:32.480 from thermometers, right?

00:13:34.640 So he said,

00:13:37.240 then you make a series of choices

00:13:38.760 to get to that record.

00:13:41.820 You make a series of choices.

00:13:43.580 If you want to get a hockey stick,

00:13:44.980 you make a series of small, tiny choices

00:13:47.420 that get you a flat blade to the hockey,

00:13:51.600 not blade, stick to the hockey stick,

00:13:53.600 whatever, handle.

00:13:54.300 Handle, yeah, the handle.

00:13:55.880 I don't know sports, it's okay.

00:13:57.760 I don't know much about your foreign games, you know.

00:14:01.300 I sound like Mark Stein now.

00:14:02.860 But, so, you make these choices.

00:14:06.520 And then Mann's counsel tried to say to him,

00:14:10.180 but Cole and Mann,

00:14:14.420 they replicated the hockey stick.

00:14:16.800 And he was going,

00:14:17.940 yeah, that was supposed to be an independent replication.

00:14:19.980 Here are all these emails where they communicated.

00:14:22.340 And he says,

00:14:22.700 it doesn't matter what they communicated.

00:14:24.420 The actual act of communicating

00:14:25.900 means it's not independent.

00:14:27.440 And number two,

00:14:28.760 you say there are small differences.

00:14:31.840 There shouldn't be any differences

00:14:33.180 because it was a replication process.

00:14:35.320 And the thing you think is small

00:14:36.580 in terms of statistics is massive.

00:14:40.180 And it's like, okay, you know,

00:14:43.180 Mr. Weiner,

00:14:44.440 I think sometimes he might have lost the jury

00:14:46.880 only in cross-examination

00:14:48.460 when he's been asked highly technical questions

00:14:51.940 that I don't really see the point of.

00:14:53.800 But I definitely,

00:14:54.880 very impressed.

00:14:55.640 The jury was very impressed with him.

00:14:56.980 They took a lot of notes when he was talking.

00:14:59.240 And as you say,

00:15:00.360 he talked about sports,

00:15:01.220 he talked about politics,

00:15:02.360 he talked about cold medicines,

00:15:04.540 you know.

00:15:05.240 Yes, yes.

00:15:06.740 Fallacies, you know,

00:15:07.440 things we think are ESP,

00:15:09.880 you know,

00:15:10.500 there's studies to show ESP exists.

00:15:12.700 And he pointed out how that is the same fallacy

00:15:16.620 that made the hockey stick exist,

00:15:19.020 that you pick your data

00:15:20.620 and maybe not consciously,

00:15:23.240 maybe consciously.

00:15:24.520 He couldn't get into Michael Mann's mind,

00:15:26.500 but he recognized the process.

00:15:28.780 And he actually said,

00:15:29.780 I don't care about climate change.

00:15:31.180 I just looked at it as a statistical problem.

00:15:34.040 And he was going,

00:15:34.640 and it's a massive problem.

00:15:36.460 That's what makes it so much fun.

00:15:38.180 Like getting the last thousand years of temperature,

00:15:40.380 it's a huge problem for statisticians.

00:15:43.100 Like,

00:15:43.400 and he was so excited because this,

00:15:45.040 for him,

00:15:45.380 this was like,

00:15:46.200 this was a Christmas present.

00:15:47.380 You know,

00:15:47.520 he had all this data and all,

00:15:48.880 you know.

00:15:49.380 But that's why his testimony was so pure,

00:15:52.100 Phelan,

00:15:52.400 because he's not in this as an activist.

00:15:54.660 I mean,

00:15:54.820 you could argue that Michael Mann and Mark Stein

00:15:56.640 are activists for their own camps.

00:15:59.220 He didn't have one.

00:16:00.020 He was there because he thought

00:16:02.180 it was a fascinating mathematical problem.

00:16:04.440 And he did what you're supposed to do.

00:16:05.860 He put the numbers in.

00:16:07.400 And what was interesting too,

00:16:08.600 is that he accepted,

00:16:09.640 and he made a point of this a few times,

00:16:12.060 he accepted at face value,

00:16:13.880 the validity of the data.

00:16:15.080 He said,

00:16:15.440 let's just assume that Mann's raw data

00:16:18.640 were what they are,

00:16:20.320 which is not a given.

00:16:21.160 But from his perspective,

00:16:22.100 he was only interested in,

00:16:23.880 if we take the figures Mann uses,

00:16:26.500 what do those figures do?

00:16:28.040 And that was,

00:16:28.940 I think,

00:16:29.160 very compelling.

00:16:30.280 And I think very believable

00:16:31.560 and credible to the jury

00:16:33.360 because he's saying,

00:16:34.000 I took his numbers

00:16:35.380 and I came up with all of these

00:16:37.420 different outcomes.

00:16:38.200 The same numbers came out

00:16:39.480 with these different outcomes.

00:16:40.500 That's right.

00:16:40.780 And he said,

00:16:41.420 are all from a mathematical perspective

00:16:43.200 equally valid.

00:16:44.400 That doesn't mean they're equally true,

00:16:46.040 but they're equally valid.

00:16:47.200 So Mann's option

00:16:48.280 is just one of many things

00:16:50.580 that the same inputs

00:16:51.980 can show on the back end.

00:16:53.380 And I,

00:16:53.620 look,

00:16:54.260 I'm not a math guy.

00:16:55.180 I'm not a stats guy,

00:16:56.080 but I understood that.

00:16:57.220 And I think the jury did as well.

00:16:59.600 Yeah.

00:16:59.700 I mean,

00:17:00.460 remember the graph

00:17:02.760 was put up

00:17:03.680 and he says,

00:17:04.440 you can use the figures

00:17:05.220 to get,

00:17:05.700 to get a hockey,

00:17:08.080 you know,

00:17:08.280 a stick,

00:17:08.820 a look,

00:17:09.360 a graph that looks like this

00:17:10.400 as in the,

00:17:11.280 the stick of the hockey stick

00:17:13.680 wasn't,

00:17:14.520 wasn't flat.

00:17:15.500 It was like this.

00:17:16.520 And the last bit

00:17:18.140 went up like that.

00:17:18.920 And,

00:17:19.360 and we had this ridiculous 0.53

00:17:21.320 back and forth

00:17:22.160 where Coyne,

00:17:22.980 the lawyer was trying to say,

00:17:24.360 but that's a hockey stick.

00:17:26.480 Yeah.

00:17:26.880 They're trying to say

00:17:27.380 that all of these are hockey.

00:17:28.660 They're literally debating

00:17:29.560 this,

00:17:29.880 this would happen.

00:17:30.560 They're debating

00:17:31.160 whether it was,

00:17:32.420 they were all versions

00:17:33.700 of hockey sticks.

00:17:35.220 Yes.

00:17:35.700 And,

00:17:35.920 and I don't know much,

00:17:36.920 as I say,

00:17:37.260 I don't know much,

00:17:37.740 but I think the blade

00:17:39.060 and a hockey stick

00:17:39.740 has to be flat

00:17:40.560 all the way along.

00:17:41.960 And then the last bit

00:17:43.020 has to incline upwards.

00:17:45.080 You know,

00:17:45.500 it can't,

00:17:46.120 the handle can't incline downwards.

00:17:48.980 Talk about how to decline.

00:17:50.160 We're talking about

00:17:50.520 hiding the incline actually.

00:17:53.300 That's fair.

00:17:53.820 I like that.

00:17:54.300 That's very good.

00:17:55.780 One of the things

00:17:56.560 this week that was,

00:17:57.700 because this was my first week

00:17:58.800 in the courtroom.

00:17:59.620 So you,

00:17:59.940 you've seen a lot of this,

00:18:00.980 but it seemed like

00:18:02.140 there was a lot more

00:18:03.540 procedural stuff.

00:18:05.020 And,

00:18:05.260 and sometimes

00:18:05.980 this procedural stuff

00:18:07.440 was,

00:18:08.580 you know,

00:18:09.280 very, 0.99

00:18:09.960 I think useless.

00:18:11.340 It was just,

00:18:12.220 basically,

00:18:12.900 I think the plaintiff

00:18:13.640 trying to run out the clock,

00:18:14.740 which they did

00:18:15.240 in a lot of ways.

00:18:16.200 But we also saw

00:18:17.500 some motions

00:18:18.240 where it looked like

00:18:19.300 the case for Michael Mann

00:18:20.900 was on very thin ice

00:18:22.380 with the judge.

00:18:23.680 And I should just say,

00:18:24.680 we're recording this

00:18:25.740 before Monday.

00:18:27.360 It's going to air on Monday.

00:18:29.200 I mean,

00:18:29.560 theoretically,

00:18:30.240 there may not be

00:18:31.100 a trial on Monday,

00:18:32.260 depending on what happens.

00:18:34.320 Yeah,

00:18:34.640 there,

00:18:35.100 there are,

00:18:35.500 there are two motions,

00:18:37.740 really,

00:18:38.040 that,

00:18:38.340 that could end this case,

00:18:40.280 really,

00:18:40.520 before the defense case

00:18:41.600 gets going.

00:18:42.160 There's a motion

00:18:42.820 to dismiss

00:18:43.720 because there's not

00:18:44.900 enough evidence

00:18:45.500 to bring it

00:18:46.000 before the jury.

00:18:47.540 And the mainstay

00:18:49.880 of that is

00:18:50.720 Michael Mann

00:18:51.520 has not proven

00:18:52.540 any damages.

00:18:54.220 That's an essential part.

00:18:55.420 And he hasn't proven

00:18:56.080 any malice either.

00:18:57.280 Those are the two

00:18:57.780 mainstays,

00:18:58.420 actually.

00:18:59.060 And malice doesn't mean

00:19:00.180 we all don't like

00:19:01.860 Michael Mann

00:19:02.460 and therefore we were

00:19:03.380 motivated by malice.

00:19:04.500 No,

00:19:04.660 malice means

00:19:05.340 that you printed

00:19:06.400 a fact that was wrong

00:19:08.280 and at the time

00:19:09.660 you printed it,

00:19:10.700 you knew it to be wrong.

00:19:13.020 Or at least,

00:19:13.680 or at least

00:19:14.340 had enough doubt about it.

00:19:15.960 Yes,

00:19:16.260 we're reckless

00:19:17.220 I think was the word.

00:19:18.420 So Mark Stein says,

00:19:19.920 I have been saying

00:19:20.560 the hockey stick was wrong

00:19:21.700 since the year 2000

00:19:23.000 and produced articles

00:19:26.680 from the Daily Telegraph

00:19:27.580 saying that.

00:19:29.000 And, you know,

00:19:30.160 I still say 0.62

00:19:31.100 the hockey stick was wrong.

00:19:32.520 It's not malice

00:19:34.400 to say that.

00:19:35.220 And I'm not

00:19:35.820 motivated by malice.

00:19:36.860 I'm motivated

00:19:37.380 by belief

00:19:38.800 and opinion

00:19:39.780 and fact.

00:19:40.980 And then

00:19:41.320 the second part of it

00:19:43.160 was man

00:19:44.160 has not been damaged.

00:19:45.300 There are no

00:19:45.840 damages

00:19:46.300 and in fact

00:19:47.120 his career

00:19:47.660 has gone up

00:19:48.460 and up

00:19:48.960 and up

00:19:49.480 and really

00:19:51.240 that's where

00:19:52.020 it got interesting

00:19:52.800 because it's true,

00:19:54.240 right?

00:19:54.440 His salary increased,

00:19:55.840 his book royalties

00:19:56.560 increased,

00:19:57.300 his celebrity

00:19:58.040 hitch count increased.

00:19:59.620 You know,

00:19:59.800 he was hanging with

00:20:00.600 Bill and Al

00:20:02.480 and Leo,

00:20:03.600 a bromance.

00:20:04.040 He actually said,

00:20:04.580 I have a bromance

00:20:05.200 with Leo Leonardo DiCaprio.

00:20:06.920 Like those are the words

00:20:07.740 he used.

00:20:08.120 So his celebrity

00:20:10.240 hitch count

00:20:10.760 has gone up

00:20:11.300 and I think

00:20:13.000 in their desperation

00:20:14.220 to prove damages,

00:20:17.680 I think Mann's side

00:20:19.540 overstepped

00:20:20.900 and overreached

00:20:21.660 and produced

00:20:22.580 to the jury

00:20:24.300 a document.

00:20:25.220 So I don't want

00:20:26.760 to get into

00:20:27.000 too much detail

00:20:27.620 but in 2020,

00:20:28.780 Mann produced

00:20:30.160 this document

00:20:30.740 saying I've lost

00:20:31.500 zillions of dollars

00:20:33.180 in grant money

00:20:34.480 and I lost

00:20:37.700 this $9 million

00:20:38.760 grant for example.

00:20:40.780 Then two years later

00:20:42.520 he looked at,

00:20:43.900 as the trial

00:20:45.300 was approaching,

00:20:46.220 he thought,

00:20:46.600 that was okay

00:20:47.740 for exactly

00:20:48.240 but he said it

00:20:48.780 under pain of perjury.

00:20:50.100 Then he had to

00:20:50.580 revise his figure

00:20:51.460 and this $9 million

00:20:53.020 grant,

00:20:54.000 which was going

00:20:54.380 to Penn State

00:20:54.900 not Michael Mann,

00:20:56.040 was downgraded

00:20:57.180 to a $112,000 grant.

00:21:01.280 Right?

00:21:01.400 You know,

00:21:03.040 who hasn't lost

00:21:03.920 $9 million

00:21:04.420 under pain of perjury

00:21:05.840 in a document?

00:21:06.840 You know,

00:21:07.000 it's happened to us all,

00:21:08.280 the $9 million man.

00:21:10.280 And so this was a,

00:21:13.500 but Mann's lawyers

00:21:15.940 produced the $9 million

00:21:17.680 document

00:21:19.220 with all the fake numbers

00:21:20.980 in it

00:21:21.280 to the jury.

00:21:23.000 Right?

00:21:23.560 And the judge said

00:21:25.040 he was,

00:21:25.780 and this is a quote,

00:21:26.620 stunned to see this.

00:21:29.280 And Mark Stein

00:21:30.920 and Deliquel

00:21:31.740 for Ransomberg

00:21:32.520 have put in motions

00:21:34.320 to the court

00:21:36.380 saying,

00:21:37.100 on top of everything else,

00:21:39.320 this is another reason

00:21:40.480 why this case

00:21:41.340 needs to be ended now.

00:21:42.900 And if it doesn't

00:21:43.480 need to be ended,

00:21:44.360 we need to exclude

00:21:46.180 all this nonsense

00:21:47.320 about grant money.

00:21:48.380 It's polluted.

00:21:49.400 It's,

00:21:49.920 it didn't make any sense

00:21:51.540 anyway, 0.50

00:21:52.080 but now it's polluted nonsense

00:21:53.740 and the jury shouldn't be

00:21:55.280 even allowed

00:21:56.060 to talk about it.

00:21:57.020 Well,

00:21:57.440 and this is the problem.

00:21:58.540 I mean,

00:21:58.720 I was reading

00:21:59.580 because it is kind of absurd.

00:22:01.080 A lot happens

00:22:01.880 during the course of a day

00:22:03.160 where,

00:22:04.060 you know,

00:22:04.280 someone asks a question,

00:22:05.540 you get objection.

00:22:07.220 The,

00:22:07.600 they,

00:22:07.800 they all,

00:22:08.320 it's actually kind of

00:22:09.140 interesting to watch.

00:22:10.020 They all put the headphones

00:22:10.980 on the lawyers

00:22:12.580 and the judge

00:22:13.200 and they put this white noise

00:22:14.780 into the room

00:22:15.780 so that the jury

00:22:16.880 can't hear this,

00:22:18.380 what's called a bench conference.

00:22:19.920 And then,

00:22:20.980 you know,

00:22:21.220 the judge will say

00:22:21.940 overruled or sustained.

00:22:23.120 And if it's sustained,

00:22:24.140 he'll have to say

00:22:24.760 to the jury,

00:22:25.320 disregard

00:22:25.700 what you've just heard. 0.84

00:22:27.360 It's all nonsense.

00:22:28.680 The juries are incapable

00:22:29.920 of just unhearing something.

00:22:31.920 And typically,

00:22:33.120 when something,

00:22:34.340 you're told to disregard something,

00:22:35.580 if anything,

00:22:35.980 it highlights it to you.

00:22:37.080 So I,

00:22:38.200 I find it hard to believe

00:22:39.540 that this wasn't deliberate

00:22:40.760 to put these numbers

00:22:41.880 before the jury,

00:22:43.320 knowing that those numbers

00:22:44.940 will stick with the jury.

00:22:46.620 And even if they are eventually

00:22:47.900 told to disregard it,

00:22:49.440 that has,

00:22:50.160 it's polluted the evidence.

00:22:51.400 But as you say,

00:22:51.920 it's also polluted the jury.

00:22:53.820 Yes.

00:22:54.640 You know,

00:22:55.340 and look,

00:22:57.100 far be of me to criticise Mark Stein,

00:22:59.020 but I think every,

00:23:00.480 every team has been at that,

00:23:02.460 asking questions

00:23:03.520 that they know

00:23:04.120 will be objected to.

00:23:05.880 And,

00:23:06.100 and the judge saying,

00:23:08.260 disregard that thing.

00:23:09.380 And so every side

00:23:10.680 has had a little smile

00:23:11.640 on their face.

00:23:12.280 Oh,

00:23:12.680 I didn't mean to.

00:23:13.720 Yeah.

00:23:13.920 Oops.

00:23:14.240 Oh,

00:23:14.520 shucks.

00:23:14.920 Oh,

00:23:15.200 gee golly.

00:23:15.820 I'm sorry,

00:23:16.460 your honor.

00:23:17.260 Even though we discussed this

00:23:18.480 for two hours

00:23:19.260 this morning,

00:23:20.720 how it was,

00:23:21.180 we were all banned

00:23:22.020 from saying this.

00:23:22.840 It accidentally slipped out.

00:23:24.440 Right?

00:23:24.680 Yeah.

00:23:25.180 Every side has been guilty of that,

00:23:27.660 but no side has put

00:23:29.660 fake documents

00:23:31.500 before the jury.

00:23:32.700 That's,

00:23:33.060 that's a step ahead.

00:23:34.400 Right?

00:23:34.700 There's a,

00:23:35.400 you know,

00:23:35.520 there's gamesmanship

00:23:36.340 and then there's

00:23:37.960 putting perjured,

00:23:42.120 you know,

00:23:42.420 Mann filled in the first document

00:23:44.620 under pain of perjury.

00:23:46.300 He did a bit,

00:23:47.060 he did a lot of lawyer blaming

00:23:48.540 during,

00:23:49.700 when he was asked about it

00:23:50.980 at length.

00:23:51.740 He said,

00:23:51.980 oh,

00:23:52.080 that was the lawyers,

00:23:52.700 that was the lawyers.

00:23:53.380 So the lawyers knew about it

00:23:54.860 and they,

00:23:56.200 and Mann knew about it

00:23:57.600 and then they produced it

00:23:58.720 to the jury anyway.

00:23:59.840 The judge has not been

00:24:03.120 the strongest judge so far,

00:24:05.020 but I was kind of very,

00:24:08.220 very shocked to hear him say

00:24:09.400 I was stunned.

00:24:10.540 Yeah.

00:24:10.720 And he was basically saying,

00:24:11.540 help me here,

00:24:12.740 help me remedy this

00:24:15.140 because this is,

00:24:16.340 this is very serious.

00:24:17.880 Well, he,

00:24:18.040 he,

00:24:18.340 the word he used was homework.

00:24:19.480 He said to the lawyers,

00:24:20.800 you've got to go

00:24:21.380 and do some homework

00:24:22.160 because right now

00:24:23.020 I've got a big question

00:24:24.940 about this damages aspect

00:24:26.420 and,

00:24:26.800 and,

00:24:27.340 and it was Mann's lawyer

00:24:28.740 that wanted an extension

00:24:30.220 on the homework assignment.

00:24:31.240 The judge wanted it

00:24:32.100 by Thursday morning

00:24:33.200 at like eight,

00:24:33.940 nine a.m.

00:24:34.440 or whatever.

00:24:35.180 And then Mann wanted it

00:24:36.640 until like,

00:24:37.040 you know,

00:24:37.180 the end of the day Friday

00:24:38.040 and I think they met

00:24:38.740 somewhere in the middle.

00:24:39.680 So hopefully,

00:24:40.720 I think the judge will review

00:24:42.120 that over the weekend

00:24:42.920 and we'll,

00:24:43.300 we'll have a finding.

00:24:44.200 But you know,

00:24:45.140 this was supposed to be done

00:24:46.120 on Wednesday.

00:24:46.840 I'm not optimistic of this

00:24:48.100 despite how firm

00:24:49.140 the judge was on it,

00:24:50.420 but we'll continue

00:24:51.920 to listen to the updates.

00:24:53.660 Climate change

00:24:54.480 on trial.

00:24:55.320 Phenomenal podcast.

00:24:56.400 You've been doing

00:24:56.720 great work on there

00:24:57.580 and I,

00:24:58.400 I should obviously

00:24:59.020 point out the obvious.

00:25:00.200 We don't just happen

00:25:01.120 to have the same chair,

00:25:02.620 you and I.

00:25:03.340 We are in the same hotel

00:25:04.760 right now and,

00:25:06.300 but I,

00:25:06.580 I didn't want to like

00:25:07.460 have this weird,

00:25:08.300 awkward,

00:25:08.520 like sitting beside each other

00:25:10.040 staring at my laptop.

00:25:10.980 So it,

00:25:11.980 from a production perspective

00:25:13.140 made more sense

00:25:13.860 to,

00:25:14.180 to do this virtually

00:25:15.360 even though you're like

00:25:16.080 a hundred feet from me

00:25:17.180 probably.

00:25:18.500 Probably,

00:25:19.020 yes.

00:25:19.340 No,

00:25:19.620 but it's,

00:25:20.960 look,

00:25:21.380 the judge has not

00:25:23.460 been the strongest judge,

00:25:24.680 but I've never seen

00:25:25.500 him as upset

00:25:26.720 about anything

00:25:28.300 as,

00:25:28.880 as the fake document

00:25:30.380 and that it's going

00:25:31.400 to be very interesting

00:25:32.180 on Monday

00:25:32.760 what,

00:25:34.020 what the upshot is.

00:25:35.300 Yeah,

00:25:35.800 very well said.

00:25:36.680 Climate change

00:25:37.180 on trial.

00:25:37.840 Do listen,

00:25:38.400 keep that up in the

00:25:39.040 leaderboard

00:25:39.460 on all of the

00:25:40.920 podcast services

00:25:41.840 and it is a very

00:25:42.840 entertaining

00:25:43.460 and enjoyable listen

00:25:44.300 and when Phelib

00:25:45.640 and I have these chats,

00:25:46.520 if you've been following

00:25:47.080 along in the podcast,

00:25:48.180 you won't have as much

00:25:48.940 catch up to do

00:25:49.860 and homework of your

00:25:50.700 own to,

00:25:51.180 to know what we're

00:25:51.940 talking about

00:25:52.480 and some of these

00:25:53.040 things.

00:25:53.420 Phelib McAleer,

00:25:54.060 thank you so much

00:25:54.760 and send my best to

00:25:55.740 Anne.

00:25:55.900 We'll see you back

00:25:56.380 in court.

00:25:57.740 Thanks,

00:25:58.180 Andrew.

00:25:58.400 All the best.

00:25:59.300 All right.

00:25:59.720 Thank you.

00:26:00.140 That was Phelib McAleer,

00:26:02.000 one of the duo

00:26:02.980 behind climate change

00:26:04.140 on trial

00:26:04.860 and lots of other

00:26:05.540 great projects

00:26:06.860 as well.

00:26:08.040 I wanted to

00:26:09.200 continue along

00:26:10.160 by talking about

00:26:11.660 this just very

00:26:12.280 briefly here

00:26:12.860 because I've had

00:26:13.960 some people email,

00:26:15.340 a lot of people email

00:26:16.100 actually and say

00:26:16.940 thank you for talking

00:26:17.740 about this.

00:26:18.160 But what was

00:26:18.540 fascinating is that

00:26:19.340 so many people

00:26:20.020 followed along

00:26:21.420 with this trial

00:26:22.340 back when it first

00:26:23.380 came up,

00:26:23.840 like 2012,

00:26:24.700 2013,

00:26:25.380 2014.

00:26:26.160 And it used to be

00:26:26.900 much bigger.

00:26:27.540 You had National

00:26:28.220 Review,

00:26:28.840 which is a big

00:26:29.460 American,

00:26:30.180 well it used to be

00:26:30.780 big,

00:26:30.980 it's not as big

00:26:31.720 anymore,

00:26:32.580 but they were in

00:26:33.260 there because that

00:26:33.800 was where Mark

00:26:34.340 Stein's blog post

00:26:35.540 was published.

00:26:37.360 And Competitive

00:26:37.980 Enterprise Group,

00:26:39.120 a conservative

00:26:39.580 think tank in the

00:26:40.300 US,

00:26:40.580 that was where

00:26:40.960 Ran Simberg's

00:26:41.660 blog post was

00:26:42.280 published.

00:26:42.740 So Michael Mann

00:26:43.980 was motivated

00:26:45.040 by a desire,

00:26:46.640 and he put this

00:26:47.120 in writing actually,

00:26:47.940 to take down

00:26:49.360 National Review.

00:26:50.300 He wanted to

00:26:50.840 bankrupt the

00:26:51.480 organization.

00:26:52.300 So talk about

00:26:53.260 malice,

00:26:53.880 that was where

00:26:54.560 we saw a level

00:26:56.120 of malice was

00:26:57.560 in kind of the

00:26:58.620 motivation behind

00:26:59.700 this lawsuit.

00:27:00.620 And a lot of

00:27:01.360 people,

00:27:01.940 whenever this had

00:27:02.820 come up,

00:27:03.220 were like,

00:27:03.460 oh yeah,

00:27:03.820 that thing's still

00:27:04.380 going on because

00:27:05.120 you don't think

00:27:05.580 this is going to

00:27:06.000 be a dozen years.

00:27:08.080 And look,

00:27:08.620 no matter what

00:27:09.080 happens in the

00:27:10.220 course of this

00:27:11.080 week,

00:27:11.680 I know that this

00:27:12.940 is going to go

00:27:13.480 one way or another

00:27:14.120 to the DC

00:27:14.640 Court of Appeals,

00:27:15.420 so that's going

00:27:16.000 to take another

00:27:16.840 year,

00:27:17.900 two years,

00:27:18.480 who knows,

00:27:19.000 and beyond that

00:27:19.660 maybe it goes

00:27:20.180 to the Supreme

00:27:20.760 Court.

00:27:21.460 I don't actually

00:27:22.700 know how the

00:27:23.140 American legal,

00:27:23.680 no one knows

00:27:24.160 how the American

00:27:24.640 legal system works.

00:27:25.520 They have all

00:27:25.800 these like

00:27:26.180 7th Circuit,

00:27:27.320 9th Circuit,

00:27:27.980 I don't know

00:27:28.580 how any of that

00:27:29.000 works,

00:27:29.260 but I know

00:27:29.860 that there is

00:27:30.260 a multi-level

00:27:30.880 process that's

00:27:31.620 going to be

00:27:31.900 appealed,

00:27:32.340 it's going to

00:27:32.660 be appealed

00:27:33.080 beyond that,

00:27:34.100 and at a

00:27:34.640 certain point

00:27:35.300 the only one

00:27:36.780 who comes out

00:27:37.480 the winner

00:27:37.860 is the lawyer.

00:27:40.220 I mentioned

00:27:40.740 with Salem,

00:27:41.920 I should point out,

00:27:42.980 Abraham Weiner.

00:27:44.160 He's an expert

00:27:45.100 witness,

00:27:45.480 expert witnesses

00:27:46.100 are compensated

00:27:47.280 very handily for

00:27:48.220 it.

00:27:48.360 He had testified

00:27:49.040 that he was

00:27:49.980 being paid

00:27:50.480 like $750

00:27:51.420 an hour

00:27:52.140 and had made

00:27:52.740 like $100,000

00:27:53.720 from this case,

00:27:57.040 and Michael

00:27:57.980 Mann's lawyer

00:27:58.480 was trying to

00:27:58.940 bring that up

00:27:59.520 to make him

00:28:00.560 look bad

00:28:01.020 in front of

00:28:01.380 the jury,

00:28:01.880 but if I

00:28:02.320 were him

00:28:02.560 I would have

00:28:02.900 just turned

00:28:03.220 back to the

00:28:03.660 lawyer and

00:28:04.040 said,

00:28:04.380 well how much

00:28:04.760 have you

00:28:05.000 made from

00:28:05.600 this case,

00:28:06.580 sir?

00:28:06.840 But then I

00:28:07.880 also would have

00:28:08.420 had one of

00:28:09.040 those motion

00:28:09.480 to strike,

00:28:10.160 and the jury

00:28:10.800 would have been

00:28:11.160 told to

00:28:11.480 disregard it,

00:28:12.260 and you can't

00:28:12.800 be too sassy

00:28:13.520 when you are

00:28:14.560 testifying in

00:28:15.540 court,

00:28:15.900 I've learned.

00:28:16.680 But in any

00:28:17.680 event,

00:28:18.060 it is Monday,

00:28:19.200 and what we do

00:28:19.600 every Monday

00:28:20.080 is we check in

00:28:20.860 with our good

00:28:21.500 friend Chris

00:28:22.180 Sims,

00:28:22.520 who is the

00:28:23.020 Alberta Director

00:28:23.840 for the

00:28:24.460 Canadian Taxpayers

00:28:25.360 Federation.

00:28:26.380 Chris,

00:28:26.620 good to have you

00:28:27.060 here,

00:28:27.240 thank you.

00:28:27.960 Thanks for

00:28:28.320 having us.

00:28:28.760 I mean,

00:28:29.800 the carbon tax,

00:28:30.580 you and I

00:28:30.880 have called it

00:28:31.460 tongue-in-cheek

00:28:32.240 the gift that

00:28:32.680 keeps on giving

00:28:33.300 because it just

00:28:33.960 keeps on giving

00:28:34.520 content,

00:28:35.300 but evidently our

00:28:36.640 content has been

00:28:37.320 working because the

00:28:38.240 Liberals are trying

00:28:39.440 to give it a

00:28:39.900 little refresh,

00:28:41.280 a little rebrand.

00:28:42.280 They're trying to

00:28:43.260 put lipstick on a 0.99

00:28:44.680 pig here. 0.99

00:28:45.700 What on earth is 0.99

00:28:46.540 happening?

00:28:47.560 It's pretty funny,

00:28:48.980 and your term has

00:28:50.720 been used a lot in

00:28:51.680 politics, and what I

00:28:52.780 love about this is

00:28:53.580 that it's been used a

00:28:54.420 lot with the carbon

00:28:55.140 tax.

00:28:55.560 In fact, it was

00:28:56.860 former Provincial

00:28:57.760 NDP leader in

00:28:59.060 British Columbia,

00:29:00.240 Carol James, who

00:29:01.640 called the notion of

00:29:03.220 a revenue-neutral

00:29:04.260 carbon tax

00:29:05.120 lipstick on a 0.99

00:29:06.440 pig.

00:29:07.200 This is way back in 0.97

00:29:08.060 the olden days,

00:29:08.960 Andrew, when the

00:29:09.780 NDP didn't like the

00:29:11.160 carbon tax.

00:29:12.040 I'm old enough to

00:29:13.040 remember that.

00:29:13.680 So it's really funny

00:29:14.940 to see this phrase

00:29:16.240 coming back to bite

00:29:17.100 them because that's

00:29:18.100 exactly what they're

00:29:18.760 trying to do.

00:29:19.600 This is how it

00:29:20.380 goes.

00:29:20.800 So Prime Minister

00:29:22.640 Justin Trudeau's

00:29:23.440 government has this

00:29:24.920 big honking

00:29:25.540 ugly carbon tax,

00:29:26.740 and he's

00:29:27.040 quadrupling the

00:29:27.840 thing within the

00:29:28.560 next seven years

00:29:29.400 or so.

00:29:31.100 We peasants,

00:29:32.120 though, Andrew, 1.00

00:29:33.140 are too stupid 1.00

00:29:34.620 to understand just 1.00

00:29:36.220 how wonderful and

00:29:37.200 beneficial this

00:29:38.240 carbon levy is.

00:29:40.120 And so in their

00:29:41.260 magnanimity, the

00:29:43.020 Trudeau government

00:29:43.920 has now decided to

00:29:45.100 go back to their 0.93

00:29:45.740 little whiteboard and

00:29:47.560 figure out a way to

00:29:48.620 rebrand the carbon

00:29:49.840 tax and especially

00:29:51.320 its heavenly

00:29:52.580 rebates.

00:29:53.400 So they're going to

00:29:54.440 try to figure out a

00:29:55.240 way to try to

00:29:56.020 bamboozle people. 0.95

00:29:57.420 I don't know what

00:29:58.000 they're going to

00:29:58.300 call the rebate now,

00:29:59.700 like super stardust

00:30:01.040 fancy rebate

00:30:02.060 something, double

00:30:03.540 plus good, who 0.85

00:30:04.520 knows.

00:30:05.200 So all this is to

00:30:06.120 say they're going to

00:30:06.720 be spending taxpayers'

00:30:07.980 money, probably

00:30:09.200 talking to a bunch of

00:30:10.240 consultants and

00:30:11.620 lobbyists to put

00:30:12.900 their heads together

00:30:13.660 how to resell the

00:30:15.840 carbon tax and the

00:30:17.160 rebates to Canadians.

00:30:18.340 When the facts are

00:30:20.220 the math speaks for

00:30:21.620 itself, the

00:30:22.700 parliamentary budget

00:30:23.540 officer has figured

00:30:25.000 out that the

00:30:25.800 average Canadian

00:30:27.200 family, especially

00:30:28.400 here in Alberta,

00:30:29.500 will be out more

00:30:31.400 than $900 this

00:30:34.200 year in 2024 with

00:30:36.860 the rebates factored

00:30:37.940 in.

00:30:38.220 That's net because

00:30:39.720 of the carbon tax.

00:30:40.640 So people aren't 0.86

00:30:42.020 dumb. 0.74

00:30:42.680 They know that this 1.00

00:30:43.720 is emptying their

00:30:44.400 wallets.

00:30:44.900 They know that this

00:30:45.780 is basically a tax on

00:30:46.900 everything, but the

00:30:48.080 Trudeau government is

00:30:49.080 undeterred.

00:30:50.500 They're going to try

00:30:51.280 to polish this one.

00:30:53.160 Yeah, and look, I

00:30:53.960 mean, sales,

00:30:55.920 marketing, advertising,

00:30:57.580 communications, all

00:30:58.600 of these have a place.

00:30:59.600 They're all valuable,

00:31:00.360 but the one thing you

00:31:01.980 should always do is a

00:31:03.120 bit of an introspection

00:31:04.200 activity whenever you

00:31:05.700 are thinking you need

00:31:06.480 a rebrand is wonder

00:31:08.080 whether people are

00:31:09.500 aware of the policy

00:31:10.940 and dislike it on its

00:31:12.520 merits.

00:31:13.860 And that's the thing

00:31:14.700 here.

00:31:14.960 I mean, it's one area

00:31:16.180 to say, OK, well,

00:31:17.520 people don't really

00:31:18.100 understand this, so

00:31:19.320 we're going to, you

00:31:20.060 know, sell it to them

00:31:20.940 so that they

00:31:21.420 understand it.

00:31:22.520 In this case, the

00:31:23.140 reason people don't

00:31:23.780 like it is because

00:31:24.780 they understand it,

00:31:26.000 because they see how

00:31:26.920 much it's costing

00:31:27.660 them.

00:31:28.240 So in that case, any

00:31:29.120 rebrand is just going

00:31:30.340 to be lying.

00:31:31.620 Yeah, exactly.

00:31:32.680 The call is coming

00:31:33.560 from inside the

00:31:34.300 house, folks.

00:31:35.560 This is the problem.

00:31:37.180 And it's one of these

00:31:38.220 things where you see

00:31:39.300 no matter which

00:31:40.060 government is in

00:31:40.960 power, which party

00:31:41.880 is in power, quite

00:31:43.100 often if they stay in

00:31:44.120 government this long,

00:31:45.240 they can just

00:31:46.420 really become

00:31:47.200 ensconced in their

00:31:48.100 bubble.

00:31:48.800 They become tone

00:31:49.520 deaf.

00:31:50.200 They stop listening

00:31:51.160 to what us average

00:31:52.540 worker drones are

00:31:53.680 doing and saying, and

00:31:55.140 they start believing

00:31:56.160 their own spin.

00:31:58.160 And this is exactly

00:31:58.980 what's happening in

00:31:59.820 Ottawa with this idea

00:32:01.140 of, oh, well, we just

00:32:02.500 need to explain it to 1.00

00:32:03.680 these dumb dumbs 1.00

00:32:04.380 better, and then they 1.00

00:32:05.540 will love us all

00:32:06.300 again.

00:32:06.800 It reminds me of that

00:32:07.720 meme that they use for

00:32:08.660 Principal Skinner all

00:32:09.500 the time from The

00:32:10.280 Simpsons.

00:32:10.880 It's like, you know,

00:32:11.460 am I wrong?

00:32:12.240 No, definitely it's the

00:32:13.320 children.

00:32:13.820 That's what we're

00:32:14.180 dealing with here.

00:32:15.300 Yeah, I wanted to

00:32:16.380 ask you about this

00:32:16.880 other thing.

00:32:17.340 I hadn't heard of

00:32:18.020 this until you

00:32:18.640 brought it up.

00:32:19.200 Something called a

00:32:19.800 wing night mutiny.

00:32:21.540 Now, I love wings.

00:32:22.960 I don't love mutiny as

00:32:24.180 much, but if there are

00:32:25.200 enough wings, I can

00:32:25.980 tolerate the mutiny.

00:32:26.880 What's the wing

00:32:27.380 night mutiny?

00:32:29.100 Yeah, I'm just, full

00:32:30.560 disclosure, a huge fan

00:32:32.040 of chicken wings

00:32:32.680 myself.

00:32:33.300 If you ever go to a

00:32:34.140 restaurant with me,

00:32:34.820 you'll wind up with

00:32:35.340 like this goblin pile of 1.00

00:32:36.760 bones in front of

00:32:37.540 me.

00:32:38.180 So I think this is

00:32:39.820 important.

00:32:40.340 So this is funny.

00:32:41.240 The city of

00:32:42.540 Calgary, following

00:32:43.820 suit with the city

00:32:44.560 of Edmonton, which

00:32:45.320 is much more

00:32:45.840 docile, except for

00:32:46.820 their hockey team.

00:32:47.860 The city of

00:32:48.500 Edmonton took this

00:32:49.480 lying down a few

00:32:50.440 months ago, but the

00:32:51.220 city of Calgary, boy,

00:32:52.360 they're not taking

00:32:52.960 this.

00:32:53.360 What this is, is

00:32:54.220 there's now a 15

00:32:56.320 cent mandatory tax

00:32:58.420 per paper bag.

00:32:59.900 There's a dollar

00:33:01.380 mandatory municipal

00:33:03.100 tax per reusable

00:33:04.560 bag.

00:33:05.040 Those ones that

00:33:05.660 fill up all of our

00:33:06.620 under-sink cabinets

00:33:07.500 and in our trunks.

00:33:09.020 The idea of plastic

00:33:10.420 single-use bags, like

00:33:11.420 that's right out,

00:33:12.440 right?

00:33:12.700 Because Prime

00:33:13.280 Minister Trudeau

00:33:13.800 banned those 1.00

00:33:14.380 things.

00:33:15.180 But here in

00:33:15.680 Calgary, it wasn't

00:33:17.040 just the bags.

00:33:18.320 They actually put

00:33:19.340 forward this new

00:33:20.260 law and enforced

00:33:21.740 it, saying you now

00:33:23.320 must beg slash

00:33:25.100 plead for a

00:33:26.480 napkin when you're

00:33:27.960 at a restaurant or

00:33:29.640 a wooden fork.

00:33:31.580 Please, Mayor

00:33:32.360 Gondek, may I have

00:33:33.340 a fork or utensil

00:33:34.360 to eat my meal?

00:33:36.020 So it's redonkulous

00:33:38.200 because this local

00:33:39.660 government is like,

00:33:40.460 we're going to save

00:33:41.060 the world by making

00:33:42.080 people ask for

00:33:42.980 napkins.

00:33:43.900 And so Premier

00:33:44.580 Daniel Smith had a

00:33:45.600 really funny line.

00:33:46.740 She said, yeah,

00:33:47.560 this almost caused

00:33:48.700 a wing night mutiny.

00:33:51.120 So we're picturing

00:33:52.660 people just revolting

00:33:54.220 in pubs across

00:33:55.280 Canada and like

00:33:56.200 flinging their

00:33:57.000 chicken wings at

00:33:57.920 people.

00:33:58.640 I don't know if

00:33:59.440 that happened.

00:34:00.040 I have not yet

00:34:00.560 heard reports, but

00:34:01.300 wing night mutiny

00:34:02.300 became a thing.

00:34:03.940 And that actually

00:34:04.560 helped energize

00:34:05.740 local politicians.

00:34:07.200 Some of the city

00:34:07.880 councillors on

00:34:08.780 Calgary City Hall,

00:34:09.940 it kind of gave

00:34:10.980 them the courage

00:34:12.220 to speak up and

00:34:13.380 to say, you know 1.00

00:34:13.900 what, this is stupid. 1.00

00:34:15.060 We shouldn't have 1.00

00:34:15.600 a 15 cent bag tax

00:34:17.040 and it's going to

00:34:17.460 be 25 cents next

00:34:18.500 year.

00:34:18.860 And we shouldn't

00:34:19.520 be nuisancing

00:34:21.120 people to death on

00:34:22.180 things like forks

00:34:23.220 and napkins.

00:34:24.100 For goodness sake,

00:34:24.800 stick to your

00:34:25.240 knitting, City Hall.

00:34:26.340 So this really

00:34:27.060 gave city

00:34:28.540 councillors around

00:34:29.700 Calgary City Hall

00:34:30.600 table the courage

00:34:32.200 to speak up and

00:34:33.220 to say, you know

00:34:33.720 what, we shouldn't

00:34:34.860 be nickel and

00:34:35.500 diming people to

00:34:36.220 death with nuisance 1.00

00:34:37.120 taxes, like dumb 1.00

00:34:38.100 things like these 0.99

00:34:38.840 bag taxes.

00:34:39.460 And we certainly

00:34:40.780 shouldn't, as

00:34:41.800 mayor, be telling

00:34:43.300 people whether or not

00:34:44.440 they can have

00:34:44.860 napkins.

00:34:45.480 Like, that's so 1.00

00:34:46.240 dumb. 0.99

00:34:46.940 And so what's really 1.00

00:34:48.320 interesting here is

00:34:49.520 that now this could

00:34:50.980 cascade into Edmonton.

00:34:52.660 The folks of Edmonton

00:34:53.920 might now find their

00:34:54.960 voice because the

00:34:55.880 people of Calgary

00:34:56.640 have spoken up.

00:34:57.620 But it's not over

00:34:58.340 yet.

00:34:59.060 In Calgary, they

00:34:59.780 still need to email

00:35:00.680 their councillors.

00:35:01.520 They still need to

00:35:02.260 phone the mayor's

00:35:03.000 office.

00:35:04.120 See, stuff like this

00:35:05.280 though is infuriating

00:35:06.520 for, not just because

00:35:07.480 I too like chicken

00:35:08.580 wings, but because

00:35:10.300 it's the kind of thing

00:35:12.420 that people pretend

00:35:13.620 is little and people

00:35:15.120 pretend is small.

00:35:15.820 They say, oh, what's

00:35:16.360 the big deal?

00:35:16.840 They still have

00:35:17.500 napkins, you just

00:35:18.460 have to ask for them.

00:35:19.480 But it really speaks

00:35:21.220 to an attitude issue

00:35:22.460 here because when

00:35:23.180 government is regulating

00:35:24.300 things so small and so

00:35:26.480 seemingly insignificant,

00:35:27.980 it's licensing government

00:35:29.220 to regulate the big

00:35:30.280 things, to regulate the

00:35:31.220 giant things.

00:35:31.960 And at a certain point,

00:35:33.360 it's going to be where

00:35:34.780 I, literally, this would

00:35:36.020 not be far off to

00:35:36.860 believe where governments

00:35:37.640 mandate cloth napkins.

00:35:39.400 Yep.

00:35:39.600 Where governments mandate

00:35:40.740 cloth napkins and all of 0.98

00:35:41.920 a sudden your crappy 0.94

00:35:42.740 hole in the wall diner 0.66

00:35:43.680 has to have linen like 0.71

00:35:44.760 it's a, you know, a

00:35:45.500 Michelin star restaurant

00:35:46.440 or whatever because that's

00:35:48.080 what the government has

00:35:49.060 decreed.

00:35:49.880 And that's, I think,

00:35:51.080 the problem here is that

00:35:52.060 when you license government

00:35:53.440 to encroach on something

00:35:54.720 like this, you're giving

00:35:56.600 it a power that will

00:35:57.960 only expand and balloon

00:35:59.300 just like the carbon tax

00:36:00.640 has increased and

00:36:01.800 ballooned.

00:36:02.760 Yes, exactly.

00:36:03.520 The carbon tax started

00:36:04.780 at, oh, it's only, you

00:36:05.940 know, it's only $10 per

00:36:07.760 tonne.

00:36:08.180 Well, it's going to be

00:36:08.940 $170 per tonne pretty

00:36:10.800 soon, folks.

00:36:11.560 It used to cost you about

00:36:12.800 50 cents in the carbon

00:36:13.900 tax.

00:36:14.600 Pretty soon it's going to

00:36:15.300 be costing you $20 every

00:36:17.480 single time you fill up

00:36:18.380 with the carbon tax.

00:36:19.320 And you really nailed,

00:36:20.700 nailed it here, Andrew,

00:36:21.740 because we can even give

00:36:23.000 you an example of how

00:36:24.560 quickly this can escalate.

00:36:26.360 So in Vancouver, the city

00:36:28.600 of Vancouver, they still

00:36:29.660 have their bag tax.

00:36:30.900 Yes, but they did have to

00:36:33.020 climb down on this weird

00:36:34.540 cup tax.

00:36:36.320 I don't know if you heard

00:36:37.060 about this, but I was

00:36:38.500 living next to Vancouver

00:36:39.820 when this all happened.

00:36:40.760 So it was pretty crazy.

00:36:41.820 So the city of Vancouver,

00:36:43.960 along with their bag fee,

00:36:45.420 also imposed this weird

00:36:46.820 cup tax so that every

00:36:48.300 single time you went to

00:36:49.400 a coffee shop or a gas

00:36:50.660 station or some mom and

00:36:51.720 pop corner store and you

00:36:53.560 dared use a disposable

00:36:55.220 paper cup, they were

00:36:56.900 charging you an extra 25

00:36:58.620 cents.

00:36:59.900 Where did that quarter go?

00:37:01.840 It didn't go to the city.

00:37:03.680 So where was it going?

00:37:05.120 I phoned them and asked

00:37:06.680 them.

00:37:07.440 This was the plan.

00:37:08.480 They wanted to force all 0.99

00:37:10.680 of these stores to collect

00:37:12.640 these quarters, save them

00:37:14.560 all up because in the very

00:37:16.460 near future, the city of

00:37:18.160 Vancouver was going to ban

00:37:20.060 all disposable or single

00:37:22.700 use cups.

00:37:23.700 Every single one of them

00:37:24.820 would not be allowed within

00:37:26.340 the city limits.

00:37:27.440 How are we to drink coffee,

00:37:28.640 you ask?

00:37:29.780 They actually wanted to force

00:37:32.020 Vancouverites to share a

00:37:34.580 communal pool of cups.

00:37:38.480 I'm not kidding.

00:37:39.820 And the money that these

00:37:41.460 businesses were being

00:37:42.360 forced to collect was

00:37:43.880 supposed to go to a

00:37:45.240 dishwasher so that now

00:37:47.240 these businesses would be

00:37:48.520 responsible for washing

00:37:50.440 everybody's cup that has

00:37:52.220 been, you know, in their

00:37:53.100 backpack on SkyTrain for a

00:37:54.620 week or under their truck

00:37:55.900 seat or whatever.

00:37:57.300 Just imagine.

00:37:58.460 Imagine hundreds of

00:37:59.700 thousands of people being

00:38:01.240 forced, adults, to force

00:38:03.040 to share this group of

00:38:04.680 cups.

00:38:05.140 It was so weird that they

00:38:07.120 actually had to back down.

00:38:09.120 But again, this is what

00:38:09.940 happens when you give them

00:38:10.880 that inch.

00:38:12.320 Yeah.

00:38:12.860 No, very well said.

00:38:13.880 It'd be like the Stanley Cup

00:38:14.920 craze in the, I think it's

00:38:16.320 mostly in the US now.

00:38:17.400 Those like, I don't even get

00:38:19.200 the Stanley Cup craze.

00:38:20.200 It's not even a hockey thing.

00:38:21.280 It's like some, there's some

00:38:22.280 like weird, like reusable cup

00:38:24.640 that everyone is like going

00:38:27.220 crazy over.

00:38:27.860 And it's like, it's just a

00:38:28.700 reusable mug.

00:38:29.700 So I don't know.

00:38:30.480 Stanley, actually there's a

00:38:31.640 Stanley Park in BC, isn't

00:38:32.880 there?

00:38:33.000 It's the Stanley Park cups

00:38:34.060 we'll say.

00:38:34.700 Yes.

00:38:34.960 I would like to think that

00:38:36.000 or I'd like to think it's a

00:38:36.740 hockey thing.

00:38:37.200 But what's really funny is

00:38:38.200 that in actual fact, like

00:38:40.420 Stanley, the company's been

00:38:41.680 around forever.

00:38:42.280 It's like thermos, right?

00:38:43.880 It's almost become synonymous

00:38:45.000 with something that keeps

00:38:45.980 your coffee hot.

00:38:47.880 And like working men at 1.00

00:38:49.960 like construction sites have

00:38:51.180 had these things in their

00:38:52.100 trucks forever.

00:38:52.940 But for some reason, these

00:38:54.540 big pink ones took off. 0.85

00:38:56.860 I don't know.

00:38:57.840 You know what?

00:38:58.720 The Liberal government should

00:38:59.940 hire the Stanley marketing

00:39:01.200 team to do their carbon tax

00:39:02.640 rebrand because clearly

00:39:05.160 they've managed to to do

00:39:07.320 something pretty good on

00:39:08.200 their own rebrand over at

00:39:09.400 Stanley.

00:39:09.560 It looks like a shade of

00:39:10.920 lipstick.

00:39:11.820 Yeah, there you go.

00:39:14.100 All right.

00:39:15.160 Chris Sims, we will talk to

00:39:16.400 you next Monday.

00:39:16.920 Always a pleasure.

00:39:17.760 Thank you so much for coming

00:39:18.620 on.

00:39:19.380 Thank you.

00:39:20.560 All right.

00:39:21.200 That was the lovely and

00:39:23.120 wonderful Chris Sims.

00:39:25.160 Just keeping with the

00:39:26.000 carbon tax theme here,

00:39:27.020 you'll no doubt be aware by

00:39:28.280 now we are on this show

00:39:29.940 doing a new series called

00:39:31.000 Unjust Transition.

00:39:32.720 We are talking about the

00:39:34.480 Liberal government's so-called

00:39:36.040 just transition and how it is

00:39:37.640 in fact a war on the oil and

00:39:39.260 gas sector.

00:39:39.880 We've been doing this by

00:39:40.560 sitting down with oil and

00:39:42.160 gas CEO and a mining guy

00:39:43.940 too.

00:39:44.220 We have the token miner,

00:39:45.780 but mostly oil and gas CEOs

00:39:47.680 talking about what their

00:39:48.640 industry is doing, what they

00:39:49.700 are doing and what they wish

00:39:51.380 the government and Canadians

00:39:52.680 would know about.

00:39:53.760 So today I wanted to turn to

00:39:55.180 Ron Gusick, who is the

00:39:57.600 president of Liberty Energy.

00:39:59.380 And I should say I was a bit

00:40:01.100 sick or coming off of a bit

00:40:03.220 of a prolonged illness when

00:40:04.240 we did these interviews.

00:40:05.640 So the audio was a little

00:40:07.160 and the audio, there's also

00:40:08.020 an audio issue.

00:40:08.720 So when I was listening to it,

00:40:09.580 I didn't know if it was the

00:40:10.300 audio issue or just my own

00:40:11.380 obnoxious grading post

00:40:13.200 illness voice or a bit of

00:40:14.440 both.

00:40:14.700 So nevertheless, this was my

00:40:16.560 interview with Ron Gusick.

00:40:18.220 I'm joined by Ron Gusick of

00:40:33.980 Liberty Energy, president of

00:40:35.940 that company.

00:40:36.480 Just before we get into some

00:40:38.300 of the policy aspects here,

00:40:39.620 what does your company do?

00:40:41.400 So Liberty is a North America

00:40:43.060 wide oil field services company

00:40:44.620 primarily focused on hydraulic

00:40:46.140 fracturing.

00:40:46.820 So wireline services,

00:40:48.920 hydraulic fracturing being our

00:40:50.060 core business, also in the

00:40:52.300 space around mobile power

00:40:53.800 generation and supplying

00:40:55.320 natural gas to run that

00:40:57.120 power generation as well.

00:40:59.080 So for, I mean, you're

00:41:00.860 connected to a lot of the

00:41:01.920 other players in this.

00:41:03.140 You're servicing a lot of

00:41:04.700 them.

00:41:05.080 And what have you seen just

00:41:06.660 in the last decade as far as

00:41:08.380 trends in the industry goes?

00:41:09.800 And I'd say overall optimism

00:41:11.400 and confidence in the industry.

00:41:12.700 Yeah, a lot to unpack in that

00:41:15.120 question.

00:41:16.000 Certainly been a real 0.92

00:41:17.840 migration in terms of where

00:41:20.140 the industry has been focused

00:41:21.260 and maybe it's a little bit

00:41:22.440 more than a decade, but

00:41:23.440 certainly in about that

00:41:25.060 timeframe, you've seen this

00:41:26.120 real transition into

00:41:27.160 development of unconventional

00:41:28.820 resources.

00:41:29.380 We've gone from, you know,

00:41:30.880 where I started in my career

00:41:32.380 25 years ago, a very

00:41:33.780 conventional world of

00:41:34.820 vertical wells, a lot of

00:41:36.700 them to access the reservoir

00:41:38.040 to these extended reach

00:41:40.040 horizontal wells with hydraulic

00:41:41.460 fracturing in them.

00:41:42.800 And we can produce a massive

00:41:44.160 amount of resource from a

00:41:45.440 very small footprint on

00:41:46.680 surface enabled by really

00:41:48.260 two technologies, horizontal

00:41:49.460 drilling and, and hydraulic

00:41:51.560 fracturing of that.

00:41:52.560 We've seen the completion

00:41:53.660 evolve a fair bit there.

00:41:55.480 We've seen the technology on

00:41:57.200 surface that enables that

00:41:58.940 evolve a fair bit.

00:42:00.080 Lots of moving pieces there.

00:42:02.560 There's obviously been a fair

00:42:03.660 bit of innovation in this

00:42:05.180 industry, just from a

00:42:06.300 technological perspective

00:42:07.440 alone.

00:42:07.940 How much of that has really

00:42:09.100 come from Canada and

00:42:10.260 Canadian enterprise?

00:42:11.880 Certainly a lot of great

00:42:12.900 things have happened here.

00:42:13.840 Canada has been at the tip

00:42:14.680 of the spear, I think, from,

00:42:16.100 from a development

00:42:17.460 standpoint with regards to

00:42:19.440 technology for decades in

00:42:21.420 the oil and gas space.

00:42:22.840 I think we hold ourselves to a

00:42:24.540 very high standard in Canada.

00:42:25.940 We, we are leaders in, I

00:42:28.500 would say the regulatory

00:42:29.720 environment around how we

00:42:31.440 produce oil and gas.

00:42:32.420 I think we have a, a great

00:42:34.900 suite of responsible producers

00:42:36.340 here who strive to be the best

00:42:38.380 at what they do.

00:42:39.520 And as a result, that means

00:42:40.740 we've always been at the, at

00:42:42.000 the tipping, at the tip of the

00:42:43.440 spear with regards to the

00:42:44.660 technology we use to do that.

00:42:46.220 And so I think Canada should be

00:42:47.680 proud of themselves in that,

00:42:48.700 whether it's, you know,

00:42:49.780 unconventional gas development

00:42:50.980 or heavy oil development,

00:42:52.120 but across that whole suite, I

00:42:53.420 think we've got a lot to be

00:42:54.440 proud of.

00:42:55.040 And your company has, you

00:42:56.220 said well over 5,000 employees

00:42:58.460 it is, right?

00:42:59.140 What's the, I mean, what's the

00:43:00.260 profile of that, of those

00:43:01.740 employees?

00:43:02.140 So the vast majority of those

00:43:04.220 people are out in the field

00:43:05.400 working 24 hours a day, 365 days

00:43:08.400 a year to provide services to

00:43:09.920 E&P companies.

00:43:11.480 You know, if you thought about

00:43:12.640 our employee base, I guess 90% of

00:43:15.700 them are out at the tip of the

00:43:16.900 spear providing that level of

00:43:19.200 service every day.

00:43:20.080 And so when you think about that

00:43:21.840 kind of work, like these are

00:43:22.920 people who are outside either day

00:43:25.980 shift or night shift.

00:43:26.760 So 12 hours at a time, whatever

00:43:28.280 the weather might be, it doesn't

00:43:29.440 matter if it's minus 40 or plus

00:43:31.520 45 outside, they're outside

00:43:33.840 working on a well site to bring

00:43:37.140 energy to us.

00:43:37.960 So when you hear the government

00:43:39.940 and a lot of, you know, NGOs use

00:43:42.600 language like the just

00:43:43.660 transitioners, the so-called just 1.00

00:43:45.220 transitioners I've been talking

00:43:46.340 about, this idea of moving the

00:43:48.460 economy and the workforce to what

00:43:50.240 they call low carbon, they're

00:43:52.200 talking about those people.

00:43:53.380 They're talking about those people

00:43:54.640 and those jobs and a future where

00:43:56.600 those jobs don't exist.

00:43:57.780 So how does that weigh on you as

00:43:59.920 the president of a company in this

00:44:01.260 space that has to plan for the

00:44:02.640 future?

00:44:04.000 Yeah, that's a tough one for me to

00:44:05.920 think about.

00:44:06.660 First of all, because I disagree

00:44:08.220 with the premise.

00:44:09.360 You know, I certainly expect that

00:44:10.640 we're going to be using oil and

00:44:11.780 gas for decades to come yet.

00:44:13.400 And I think there's a lot of great

00:44:14.460 data to support that.

00:44:16.120 But I also think about it just in

00:44:18.260 terms of what opportunity we

00:44:20.460 provide to those people.

00:44:22.000 You know, the vast majority of the

00:44:23.260 people who work in our company, who

00:44:24.540 work out there at the tip of the

00:44:25.580 spear, they're high school

00:44:26.800 graduates.

00:44:27.500 Some of them have some specialized

00:44:28.680 expertise, maybe an electronics

00:44:30.560 technician, maybe a mechanic,

00:44:32.460 something like that.

00:44:34.220 But a lot of them just a high

00:44:35.660 school diploma.

00:44:36.540 And we've offered them an

00:44:38.280 opportunity to live a life that

00:44:40.540 they might not otherwise have

00:44:42.040 expected to.

00:44:42.940 We just finished filming a video

00:44:44.700 actually called A Day in the

00:44:45.740 Life.

00:44:46.120 And it's just a bit of a purview

00:44:47.960 around what it looks like to work

00:44:49.740 in the industry.

00:44:50.720 And there are some heartwarming

00:44:52.300 stories in that of people whose life

00:44:54.460 looks so much different than they

00:44:55.760 anticipated it might have been

00:44:57.140 because of a job in oil and gas.

00:44:59.440 Our employees work two weeks on,

00:45:01.040 two weeks off in the field.

00:45:02.020 So they work 26 weeks of the year

00:45:03.740 and they will earn, you know, once

00:45:05.920 they get to a supervisory level,

00:45:07.240 certainly a six-figure income.

00:45:09.700 That's not something you find

00:45:11.340 easily.

00:45:11.920 And it's a life-changing experience

00:45:13.600 for these people.

00:45:14.220 I don't think that's easily

00:45:15.240 replaced.

00:45:15.760 And so I have a really hard time

00:45:17.460 with this idea of a just

00:45:18.460 transition.

00:45:19.300 Well, and I'm glad you brought it

00:45:20.400 up that way.

00:45:20.860 Now, I mean, critics of that

00:45:22.400 position would say that, well,

00:45:23.800 you know, we, you know, the jobs

00:45:25.060 can be transitioned and they'll be

00:45:26.320 moved away or whenever.

00:45:27.340 But I think you have to go back

00:45:28.780 to the first principle and the

00:45:30.080 very premise on which that rests.

00:45:31.780 And that premise is based on,

00:45:33.840 I would say, a very misinformed or

00:45:35.820 ill-informed view of what the

00:45:37.360 sector is and how a lot of these

00:45:39.700 innovations that we were talking

00:45:40.880 about are really achieving from the

00:45:42.480 industry's perspective, the stated

00:45:44.800 goals from the government's

00:45:46.360 perspective.

00:45:46.800 So explain how that is.

00:45:48.380 Yeah, I, you know, certainly I, I,

00:45:51.260 I think we have an incredibly

00:45:52.380 innovative industry and, and I,

00:45:54.840 you know, the way I like to think

00:45:56.120 about it is the oil and gas industry

00:45:57.780 delivers a dollar's worth of

00:45:59.320 benefit and we do a nickel or

00:46:00.780 dime's worth of damage along the

00:46:02.660 way.

00:46:03.040 And so if you're always prepared to

00:46:05.120 contemplate the trade-offs, but

00:46:07.040 honestly weigh the pros and cons,

00:46:08.900 you come out in favor of oil and

00:46:10.320 gas each and every time.

00:46:11.460 And so that's important for me to

00:46:13.060 remind our employees about, I want

00:46:14.520 them to get out of bed each and

00:46:15.740 every day, excited about what they

00:46:17.080 do and proud about what they go

00:46:18.320 to work doing.

00:46:19.560 And so that's part of our mandate

00:46:21.240 to them is to help them understand

00:46:22.660 that, that what they do for the

00:46:24.140 world is, is quite literally

00:46:25.580 life-changing.

00:46:26.840 And, um, but the, at the same

00:46:29.920 point in time, we have that

00:46:31.240 nickel or dies worth of damage and

00:46:32.640 it's incumbent upon us as a

00:46:33.860 company to do everything we can to

00:46:35.380 minimize that.

00:46:36.160 And not just us as a company, but

00:46:37.660 us as a broader industry.

00:46:39.020 And it's, so we count on our

00:46:40.720 employees on that, that team of

00:46:42.240 people out there to find ways to

00:46:44.060 innovate, to move the ball

00:46:45.440 forward, to make sure that the

00:46:47.260 next molecule of gas we produce is,

00:46:49.600 is done a little more responsibly

00:46:51.000 than the previous molecule of gas

00:46:52.640 we produce.

00:46:53.360 And, and I think you can see, uh, a

00:46:56.500 continued stream of evidence around

00:46:58.220 technological advancements that

00:46:59.720 demonstrate we've done exactly that

00:47:01.240 as an industry.

00:47:01.840 Well, and to take that metaphor a

00:47:03.440 little bit further, if, if we

00:47:04.640 accept, which I think there's ample

00:47:06.340 reason to, that the demand exists and

00:47:08.380 that the demand is not going

00:47:09.480 anywhere, someone has to provide that

00:47:12.320 supply.

00:47:13.200 And I don't think anyone could argue

00:47:14.720 that the nickel or dime's worth of

00:47:16.680 damage that you say that may exist in

00:47:18.440 a Canadian context from Canadian

00:47:19.820 companies is going to be anything but

00:47:23.080 dwarfed by what other suppliers will

00:47:25.220 do.

00:47:25.560 And, you know, maybe it's a quarter's

00:47:26.800 worth of damage somewhere else or 50

00:47:28.700 cents.

00:47:29.120 So, and that's the fundamental reality

00:47:30.720 here is that it's a much safer bet to

00:47:32.800 invest and rely on Canadian energy.

00:47:35.700 Yeah.

00:47:36.000 I think that's a great way to think

00:47:37.420 about it.

00:47:37.820 If, you know, we often view things

00:47:39.860 through the lens of a billion people

00:47:41.340 who live the way that you and I enjoy

00:47:43.580 our life.

00:47:44.340 And, and that's unfortunate because

00:47:45.980 there are 7 billion people who don't.

00:47:48.180 And so the very simple math that I like

00:47:50.080 to think about when we have this

00:47:51.860 conversation around the demand for

00:47:53.500 energy is, look, we have a billion

00:47:55.320 people who averaged across them.

00:47:57.220 So this is North America, Western

00:47:58.920 Europe, uh, Japan,

00:48:00.720 South Korea, Australia, New Zealand,

00:48:02.640 those people on average use 13 barrels

00:48:06.000 of oil per person per year.

00:48:09.060 So we have a billion who live in that

00:48:10.840 world.

00:48:11.260 We have 7 billion people who averaged

00:48:13.220 across all of them have access to, or

00:48:15.220 use three barrels of oil per person per

00:48:17.820 year.

00:48:18.380 And so if you think about this idea that

00:48:20.520 even if we reduced our consumption by

00:48:23.120 three barrels of oil per person per year,

00:48:24.800 and they raise their consumption by three

00:48:27.080 barrels of oil per person per year, demand

00:48:29.180 is growing massively over the coming

00:48:31.500 decades.

00:48:32.460 And, and so if we accept that that's a

00:48:35.260 reasonable premise, that there's going to

00:48:36.720 be a massive, uh, growth and demand for

00:48:39.600 energy such that everybody in the world

00:48:41.800 has access to the type of life or

00:48:43.520 something closer to the life that you and

00:48:45.100 I enjoy, then the question becomes, where

00:48:47.420 should that energy come from?

00:48:48.960 And we're a hundred percent behind the

00:48:50.800 idea, uh, exactly as you espoused is that

00:48:53.300 if it's going to come from someplace, it

00:48:55.460 should come from Canada.

00:48:56.660 We produce, we produce the lowest impact

00:49:00.020 molecule of gas or barrel of oil that can

00:49:02.240 be found anywhere in the world and do so

00:49:04.220 incredibly responsibly.

00:49:05.620 And we have an immense amount of people

00:49:07.280 who benefit from that, both directly in the

00:49:09.100 industry and economically in the country.

00:49:11.320 And so why would we choose to do it any

00:49:13.860 place else?

00:49:15.000 Yeah, that's, that's not even a

00:49:16.220 nationalistic argument.

00:49:17.380 It's, it's an environmental argument.

00:49:18.900 It's an economic argument.

00:49:19.920 It's all of that.

00:49:20.640 Well, a fascinating subject.

00:49:22.320 Your perspective on that, I think, puts

00:49:23.760 it into context for a lot of people.

00:49:25.980 Rod Gusick of Liberty Energy.

00:49:27.580 Thank you very much.

00:49:28.500 My pleasure.

00:49:29.020 Thanks very much.

00:49:30.780 If you want to support the work we're

00:49:32.140 doing, you can do so at donate.tnc.news.

00:49:34.920 And we're so grateful to all of you for

00:49:36.700 your support.

00:49:37.780 Uh, the fun continues tomorrow and the

00:49:39.640 rest of the week here on the Andrew

00:49:41.000 Lawton Show at True North.

00:49:42.420 Thank you.

00:49:42.920 God bless and good day to you all.

00:49:45.300 Thanks for listening to the Andrew Lawton

00:49:46.800 Show.

00:49:47.540 Support the program by donating to True

00:49:49.360 North at www.tnc.news.

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