Juno News - Even when lifting restrictions, Trudeau threatens more of them

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:05.720 This is The Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:00:10.800 Coming up, the only way to end COVID restrictions is not by winning court battles,

00:00:14.460 but by winning over hearts and minds.

00:00:16.700 Plus, we talk Quebec politics and the federal government's war on vaping.

00:00:21.180 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.

00:00:24.680 Hello and welcome to you all.

00:00:26.700 This is another edition of Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show, Tuesday, September 27th, 2022.

00:00:33.960 Hope you are having a fantastic day so far.

00:00:37.920 We have a bit of a packed show today.

00:00:40.180 There's been a lot going on and only so many days in the week,

00:00:42.900 so we're trying to get as much as we can in.

00:00:45.480 We're going to be talking about vaping.

00:00:47.120 We're going to be talking about Quebec politics.

00:00:49.500 And of course, you better believe we're going to be talking about the battle over vaccine mandates,

00:00:54.560 not just at Western University in London, Ontario, but also in Canada,

00:01:00.180 where per Justin Trudeau's executive fiat,

00:01:03.440 the mandates at the federal level for borders for air travel will be coming to an end on September 30th,

00:01:11.380 or specifically on October 1st.

00:01:13.300 So if you're traveling on an overnight flight September 1st to,

00:01:16.980 or sorry, September 30th to October 1st,

00:01:19.040 you get to like dramatically rip off your mask mid-flight.

00:01:22.200 If you take off, you may need to arrive camp, but by the time you land, you don't.

00:01:25.760 It's all going to be very exciting.

00:01:27.500 It's Canada.

00:01:28.140 People are probably just going to keep their masks on, but you never know.

00:01:31.460 But I do want to talk about this because I devoted considerable attention last week to saying,

00:01:36.400 even with all these reports coming out,

00:01:38.600 that the mandates are going to be gone by the end of this month,

00:01:41.940 people should not be too excited.

00:01:44.160 And I was not trying to be a Debbie Downer.

00:01:46.680 I always try to be a ray of sunshine if possible.

00:01:49.480 It's very difficult sometimes, but I try.

00:01:52.380 But it was more that the government has never apologized.

00:01:56.460 And it's not, I'm not one of these like really emotional and overly sentimental people that's like,

00:02:01.660 no, you didn't say I'm sorry.

00:02:03.040 So it's, it's more than that.

00:02:04.580 It's because the government says still,

00:02:06.900 and they were clinging to this when they made the announcement yesterday,

00:02:09.640 that this was all about the science and that they haven't changed their minds.

00:02:13.440 The science has changed.

00:02:14.800 It was unsafe to do this a week ago, but now it's safe.

00:02:17.860 And it's the same rationale that they'll use if they bring it back.

00:02:23.440 Because when every other country in the world, for the most part,

00:02:27.400 made the announcements that it was gone,

00:02:29.820 they did it in a celebratory way.

00:02:32.920 When restrictions ended in Israel, when restrictions ended in the UK,

00:02:37.080 when restrictions ended in most American states and so on,

00:02:40.020 it was done because they said, yeah, we beat this.

00:02:42.140 It was like George Bush with the Mission Accomplished banner.

00:02:44.880 Justin Trudeau, while making the announcement that the mandates were ending, said this.

00:02:49.480 We stepped up during this pandemic as individuals,

00:02:53.300 as communities to get vaccinated quicker and to higher levels

00:02:57.240 than just about any other country in the world.

00:02:59.040 And because of that,

00:03:00.480 studies have shown that we avoided hundreds of thousands of deaths

00:03:04.300 because of the decisions that municipalities,

00:03:07.080 the provinces, the federal governments took during this pandemic

00:03:10.760 that kept people safe.

00:03:13.120 And right now, the best thing each of us can do

00:03:16.000 to prevent a resurgence of COVID-19 as winter approaches

00:03:20.600 is to make sure that you get up-to-date in your vaccinations

00:03:25.760 with the new formulations coming out that'll keep us even safer.

00:03:29.140 And that'll mean that we won't need to take further steps,

00:03:33.760 hopefully, if everyone gets vaccinated.

00:03:36.540 So he's not even saying it's over.

00:03:38.580 He's saying, well, it's over for now,

00:03:40.780 but everyone has to get vaccinated

00:03:42.320 because if you don't, I might have to do something else.

00:03:45.500 As though he has no choice, as though he has no autonomy.

00:03:47.700 And it is this sort of Damocles hanging over people's heads

00:03:52.500 that was exactly why when they suspended

00:03:55.580 the air travel vaccine mandate so long ago,

00:03:58.720 I said, I hope the lawsuit carries on.

00:04:01.180 And that lawsuit has been thus far carrying on.

00:04:04.520 Because the government thinks that all of this was good.

00:04:07.320 The government thinks all of this was helpful.

00:04:09.260 The same government that thought we had to put people on planes

00:04:13.020 after they have proven they're vaccinated was a good idea

00:04:16.540 is also the government saying,

00:04:18.600 well, we follow the science, so just trust us.

00:04:20.800 And it's on you.

00:04:21.500 It's not our decision.

00:04:22.820 It's your decision whether we get more restrictions.

00:04:26.440 And this is what's happening now.

00:04:28.220 They're moving the discussion.

00:04:29.660 They're moving the narrative to,

00:04:30.800 as you heard in that clip, up-to-date vaccinations.

00:04:34.620 So if they do put in restrictions,

00:04:36.480 it's not even going to be where your two doses

00:04:38.320 is enough to classify you as fully vaccinated.

00:04:41.500 It's going to be where you need to have a vaccine

00:04:43.960 within the last perhaps six months,

00:04:46.200 maybe even three months.

00:04:47.340 You never know.

00:04:48.280 And that is the only way you get to say

00:04:49.980 that you are up-to-date.

00:04:52.500 And booster mandates,

00:04:53.780 like they have at Western University in London, Ontario,

00:04:56.840 are going to be what replaces

00:04:58.340 the old version of mandates.

00:05:00.840 And just taking a look at the Western situation,

00:05:03.560 on the weekend,

00:05:05.080 the Superior Court of Justice,

00:05:06.720 before whom lawyers for the university

00:05:09.080 and also Lisa Bildy,

00:05:10.440 representing a number of students affected

00:05:12.340 by the vaccine mandate,

00:05:13.840 argued their case.

00:05:15.540 And the court sided with Western.

00:05:18.640 The court released its decision on the weekend

00:05:20.560 saying that Western has the right

00:05:22.920 to manage its own affairs.

00:05:24.820 And it's Western's authority 0.91

00:05:26.440 that decides whether this policy is valid or not.

00:05:30.120 It was not a constitutional challenge.

00:05:32.880 And there's a reason for that

00:05:34.420 because they were trying to go after the school

00:05:36.160 on very narrow grounds

00:05:37.340 on the collection of privacy

00:05:39.180 and the obligations and regulations on that.

00:05:42.480 And the court still found a wide latitude,

00:05:45.980 a wide berth that it was able to afford Western

00:05:48.880 that basically say Western can set a policy

00:05:51.460 and then come up with whatever collection mechanism

00:05:55.440 it needs to to enforce that policy.

00:05:59.140 And I find this all to be so disheartening.

00:06:02.200 And it's an example of why

00:06:03.640 the legal battles are important,

00:06:06.500 but they're also not the be-all and end-all

00:06:08.220 because I have a degree of pessimism

00:06:10.000 about where courts are going to land on these issues.

00:06:13.180 Because we know that courts have given governments

00:06:15.460 a lot of deference on this

00:06:18.060 because of the pandemic.

00:06:19.680 They've given governments a lot of latitude to say,

00:06:21.700 well, yeah, it's a deadly pandemic.

00:06:23.900 So even though you're violating constitutional rights,

00:06:25.960 I guess it's demonstrably justified,

00:06:29.420 reasonable limits, free society,

00:06:31.760 all of that stuff.

00:06:32.720 That section one test that most Canadians know now

00:06:35.660 because it's the one that blocks,

00:06:38.140 the one that blocks so much liberty

00:06:41.960 from taking hold in policy

00:06:43.580 because it focuses on government's rationalization

00:06:47.120 for infringements on freedom.

00:06:50.320 So right now we have at the federal level,

00:06:52.620 them saying we have to get rid of these mandates now

00:06:54.740 because the science no longer requires them.

00:06:57.520 And then at one particular university,

00:06:59.720 you have the mandate that is going beyond

00:07:02.960 any mandate the federal government has put in,

00:07:05.180 which it claims is rooted in science.

00:07:08.520 It's amazing how science can say

00:07:10.580 so many different contradictory things.

00:07:13.320 And this is, I think, where the important truth is

00:07:15.580 that people need to understand here.

00:07:17.160 It's not about politics.

00:07:18.380 It's not about the law.

00:07:20.440 It's about culture and it's about society.

00:07:23.760 Government responded to society.

00:07:27.420 It was people.

00:07:28.040 People wanted restrictions.

00:07:30.020 People wanted restrictions.

00:07:31.220 Justin Trudeau won an election

00:07:32.860 on the backs of threatening the unvaccinated 1.00

00:07:37.040 by taking away their right to work for the public service,

00:07:40.140 to work, to ride a plane, to ride a train, to all of that.

00:07:44.400 That was something that Justin Trudeau was rewarded for doing.

00:07:49.560 People wanted it.

00:07:50.560 Now, have people changed in the last year?

00:07:52.760 Yes.

00:07:53.040 You throw the convoy, you throw other protests,

00:07:55.120 you throw more pandemic fatigue in there.

00:07:57.620 Totally agree.

00:07:58.440 People change.

00:08:00.380 But the reality is the piece of paper

00:08:02.780 that we call the Constitution is not going to save you.

00:08:06.080 Justin Trudeau, the liberal prime minister,

00:08:07.980 is not going to save you.

00:08:09.620 It's winning over the hearts and minds of people

00:08:12.220 that is, I believe, the only way we turn the page on this.

00:08:17.760 Because if there is no one willing to comply,

00:08:21.900 it doesn't matter what the pieces of paper say.

00:08:24.880 When we come back, I'm going to talk about Quebec politics,

00:08:28.100 the election looming next week,

00:08:30.140 but some bigger picture themes,

00:08:31.320 especially with Quebec's COVID response

00:08:33.680 that I want to get into with Notre Dame de Grasse candidate

00:08:37.060 for the Quebec Conservatives, Dr. Roy Eepin.

00:08:39.680 That's all straight ahead.

00:08:40.880 Stay tuned.

00:08:44.380 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:08:49.680 Welcome back to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:08:51.760 We don't do a lot of Quebec politics on the show,

00:08:53.760 and part of it is because it is just this different animal,

00:08:56.520 as I've always said, and it's something that I don't have a foothold in

00:09:00.200 as much as I do in other forms of politics.

00:09:03.060 But it is important.

00:09:04.400 We've got an election coming up,

00:09:05.800 and there's a new Conservative Party,

00:09:07.820 which I think is very, very much worth pointing out and acknowledging.

00:09:12.220 My colleague, Elie Kensen-Nantel,

00:09:14.060 has been doing a fair bit of coverage on this at True North.

00:09:17.320 But also, I think it's important to point out that the CAQ,

00:09:20.580 the party led by Francois Legault, which is in government now,

00:09:24.080 ran last time as a Conservative Party,

00:09:27.340 and it became the province that had the most draconian restrictions in Canada

00:09:31.400 as far as COVID is concerned,

00:09:33.520 from curfews to the threat of taxing the unvaccinated, you name it.

00:09:38.140 So, Roy Eepin, I have known for many, many years.

00:09:40.960 He's a physician in Montreal.

00:09:42.440 He's also the Quebec Conservative Party's candidate in Notre Dame de Grasse

00:09:47.000 and a fantastic supporter of independent media and True North,

00:09:50.840 and he joins me now.

00:09:52.400 Roy, it is great to talk to you.

00:09:54.040 Thanks for coming on today.

00:09:55.560 Thank you for having me on.

00:09:57.480 I mean, oftentimes, I just want to sort of put this out there

00:10:00.540 for the non-Quebeckers in the audience first.

00:10:03.080 There, I think, is this mystical quality of Quebec politics

00:10:06.740 and that it doesn't really exist on the same plane sometimes

00:10:10.360 and the same coalitions and fault lines as politics in the rest of Canada.

00:10:15.400 So, what is it that the Conservative Party of Quebec

00:10:18.220 has really been about in this election?

00:10:20.620 What are the issues that are really defining your and your party's campaign?

00:10:25.600 So, Eric Duam and I are friends for quite a long time,

00:10:31.140 and Eric has done something quite remarkable.

00:10:33.560 He's trying to move the conversation from the sovereignist,

00:10:37.760 federalist kind of perspective and really talk about issues

00:10:42.060 that affect everyday life.

00:10:45.620 So, things like the pandemic, things like economic affordability,

00:10:49.360 things like the rights of children and the rights of adults.

00:10:52.600 You know, we basically want more freedom.

00:10:56.220 He took the party from 500 members when he first joined,

00:10:59.780 when he first became our leader, to 60,000 members right now,

00:11:04.220 which is pretty much astonishing.

00:11:08.760 And, you know, we've gone from 0.5% of the polls

00:11:13.080 to about 20% of the polls, which is also pretty astonishing.

00:11:16.540 One thing that I saw in the last Quebec election,

00:11:20.960 a lot of Conservatives that were supporting François Legault

00:11:24.800 and the CAQ as an alternative from the Liberals,

00:11:28.440 an alternative from the Parti Québécois,

00:11:30.860 but a lot of these people very disappointed.

00:11:33.100 I think one of the primary frustrations is,

00:11:36.300 outside of COVID, the opposition and hostility

00:11:39.540 to oil and gas development, for example.

00:11:42.480 And also, you look at COVID protocol.

00:11:44.160 Quebec had, among the strictest COVID measures in the country,

00:11:48.300 curfew, threat of attacks on the unvaccinated.

00:11:51.180 Are you sensing, when you talk to people

00:11:53.260 that you're trying to court the votes of,

00:11:55.940 that there was some buyer's remorse in the last election?

00:11:59.780 Oh, very much so.

00:12:01.080 Very much so.

00:12:02.160 If you look at Mr. Legault's promises that he made,

00:12:05.360 he's broken pretty much all of them.

00:12:07.400 He said he was going to cut taxes.

00:12:09.700 He didn't.

00:12:10.500 He said he was going to reduce the size of the civil service.

00:12:12.900 He actually grew it tremendously.

00:12:15.300 He said he was going to allow liquid natural gas exploration.

00:12:20.560 He broke that promise.

00:12:23.200 In fact, there's a lady that was celebrating his victory

00:12:26.760 at one of his victory parties who now is voting against him.

00:12:31.240 So I think there's a lot of buyer's remorse.

00:12:33.680 I mean, he kind of tried to put himself off

00:12:36.840 as sort of middle of the road or even a little bit to the right.

00:12:40.400 And he's not.

00:12:41.480 He's the same leftist as anyone else running, you know, in Quebec.

00:12:48.060 We are the new voice for change.

00:12:50.840 I've heard from a lot of people,

00:12:54.060 specifically Anglophones in Quebec,

00:12:56.560 just this increasing marginalization,

00:12:58.720 which obviously has been going on for many years now.

00:13:00.980 But I mean, even just absurdly earlier in the campaign,

00:13:03.760 Francois Legault apologized for having a French

00:13:06.840 or an English page on his website in addition to a French page.

00:13:10.840 So there is really no place in the existing Quebec political structure

00:13:16.400 for the English minority, is there?

00:13:21.600 So that was kind of embarrassing.

00:13:24.620 And on top of it, he refused to debate in English.

00:13:30.460 There will be no English debate in this election campaign.

00:13:35.740 Eric, on the other hand,

00:13:36.680 has been very open to the English community

00:13:38.680 and other communities in Quebec.

00:13:41.160 He has his nationalist side,

00:13:44.280 but he thinks that Quebecers should all be equal and unite.

00:13:49.520 You know, Francois Legault tries to separate people

00:13:52.520 and we try to unite people.

00:13:55.760 He's done interviews with all kinds of English people.

00:13:59.940 He did a big interview with Jordan Peterson a few weeks ago,

00:14:04.060 which has gotten hundreds of thousands of hits.

00:14:06.840 Eric is very open and the English community

00:14:14.600 should stop feeling held hostage by the Liberal Party

00:14:18.160 and look at other alternatives.

00:14:21.080 And that's actually happening.

00:14:23.000 We have a new law called Bill 96,

00:14:26.360 which is quite oppressive towards English and other minorities.

00:14:30.680 And our party opposes it

00:14:32.700 because it violates the Quebec Human Rights Code 38 times.

00:14:37.840 Any law that violates the Human Rights Code of a province

00:14:42.120 that many times has something seriously wrong with it.

00:14:45.760 So the Liberal Party of Quebec,

00:14:47.800 which has been the traditional party of the Anglophone minority,

00:14:51.060 has done its best to drive the Anglophone minority away. 1.00

00:14:55.860 They voted twice for this oppressive Bill 96.

00:14:59.300 On third reading, they did vote against it,

00:15:00.920 but not before they made it worse.

00:15:03.380 And because of that,

00:15:04.640 15 of their 30 members from the last legislature

00:15:08.540 have resigned and are not running again.

00:15:12.120 So the Liberals are in major trouble.

00:15:16.520 And I think that, as Eric says,

00:15:19.060 the English community should not feel held hostage

00:15:21.840 by the Liberal Party of Quebec.

00:15:24.400 Just on Bill 96,

00:15:26.780 I just saw the other day that Otterbox,

00:15:28.900 the largest cell phone case provider,

00:15:31.860 is no longer letting Quebecers purchase cases

00:15:34.440 because they're not convinced

00:15:36.120 they're able to be compliant right now with that.

00:15:39.140 So it's not just about this proclamation

00:15:42.760 that, yes, we support the French language.

00:15:44.680 There are very real-world economic consequences

00:15:46.900 to some of these things.

00:15:48.080 And I do think people suffer from them.

00:15:50.720 I want to just turn to health care, though.

00:15:52.400 This is obviously your specialty, not just as a candidate.

00:15:55.080 You're a physician.

00:15:56.080 You have been for many years.

00:15:57.980 You've come out and talked about some very-

00:16:01.080 I mean, what I would say for a lot of politicians

00:16:02.840 are third rail issues on health care,

00:16:05.480 which is looking at a way to deliver services better

00:16:08.180 and not just rely on government, government, government.

00:16:11.320 And I was wondering if you could explain,

00:16:12.400 I mean, your personal approach to this,

00:16:13.700 but also your parties.

00:16:14.560 So I, along with several other doctors

00:16:18.620 and health professionals, wrote our health policy.

00:16:22.020 We saw from the pandemic

00:16:23.360 that we basically did not have a functioning health system

00:16:27.300 that was able to actually cope with all of these things.

00:16:31.240 So we looked at various other systems of doing health care.

00:16:35.560 We ranked quite lowers for health care

00:16:39.180 compared to other countries.

00:16:40.620 And we looked at countries that did better.

00:16:43.440 You know, people will immediately say

00:16:45.280 that I'm trying to mimic the United States.

00:16:48.220 We're not.

00:16:49.120 We are actually trying to mimic Sweden.

00:16:52.180 Sweden has a system with private health care.

00:16:55.680 We would like eventually to have a private hospital.

00:16:59.420 The Swedish system also has a 30, 60, 90-day guarantee

00:17:02.580 where after 90 days, if the state does not give you health care,

00:17:06.160 the state will be required to pay for private health care.

00:17:10.460 We also want to allow insurance to pay for health care,

00:17:16.020 which will be tax deductible

00:17:17.580 and was allowed under the Shaouli decision,

00:17:21.200 which was several years ago.

00:17:23.020 But the Quebec government seems to have completely ignored

00:17:25.200 the Supreme Court ruling saying that that was possible.

00:17:29.480 We have many other things.

00:17:31.320 For instance, one of the other things I find very interesting

00:17:33.700 that we have in our is that we're giving autonomy insurance.

00:17:37.620 So you can buy autonomy insurance when you're younger

00:17:40.180 or even when you're older to get you into a better nursing home

00:17:44.560 or keep you at home.

00:17:46.460 We think the best thing for older people 0.98

00:17:48.480 and people who have illness is to try and keep them at home

00:17:51.800 as much as possible.

00:17:54.080 So this would also open up secondary markets

00:17:57.300 for more private nursing homes and other such things. 1.00

00:18:02.720 We also want to change the way that health care is paid for.

00:18:06.460 Instead of giving block grants to hospital,

00:18:08.540 we would allow grants to follow the patient

00:18:12.080 depending where they wanted to go.

00:18:13.840 So we would get even public institutions

00:18:16.300 to compete with each other.

00:18:19.400 Talking about pandemic response specifically,

00:18:22.320 it was hospital capacity,

00:18:23.940 those issues you just alluded to,

00:18:25.720 that was used by government,

00:18:27.580 not just in Quebec, elsewhere in Canada as well,

00:18:29.780 as justification for these measures that are just,

00:18:32.640 in my view, completely antithetical to a free society.

00:18:35.180 The idea that in Quebec people were fined

00:18:37.320 for walking outside their own homes after 8 p.m.,

00:18:41.100 the fact that people were for a time threatened

00:18:43.540 with having to pay the government a fine

00:18:45.920 if they were not vaccinated.

00:18:48.600 I mean, do these things at all fit in with the vision

00:18:51.260 that the Conservative Party of Quebec has for the province?

00:18:54.460 Certainly not.

00:18:57.040 We believe in freedom.

00:18:58.320 We believe in freedom of choice

00:18:59.720 and we believe that in all things Quebecers,

00:19:03.940 the individual Quebecer is better informed

00:19:06.400 and better able to make decisions for his own life

00:19:09.500 than the government.

00:19:10.900 The government should have given advice

00:19:12.540 and left it at that.

00:19:17.460 You know, we had some of the worst lockdown measures

00:19:20.020 in North America,

00:19:20.980 but we had some of the worst death rates

00:19:23.560 in North America.

00:19:24.980 So A did not lead to B.

00:19:27.840 And why is that?

00:19:28.980 We basically have a system of care

00:19:33.220 for elderly people which failed.

00:19:36.300 We also banned the families of these elderly people 1.00

00:19:39.600 from going to visiting them in these so-called health facilities.

00:19:44.400 They're called CHLDs.

00:19:47.120 And basically, these older people 0.99

00:19:51.200 were not allowed to see their families

00:19:52.980 for prolonged periods of time.

00:19:54.600 And that caused depression.

00:19:57.880 That caused neglect.

00:19:59.660 I mean, families came to wash their family members.

00:20:02.840 They came to feed their family members.

00:20:04.720 They kept them company.

00:20:06.360 And I think we basically should have spent

00:20:09.380 a lot more time examining the harms

00:20:12.160 rather than the unproven benefits.

00:20:14.920 And the evidence is coming out more and more

00:20:17.820 that there were very few benefits.

00:20:21.160 And what we did do was cause a lot of trouble

00:20:23.460 to elderly and young people.

00:20:26.160 And in fact, we have something in our platform

00:20:29.420 that says that if we were in power,

00:20:31.060 we would actually say that if those kind of measures

00:20:33.580 were needed to come back,

00:20:34.840 we would have to have an 80%, 90% majority in the House

00:20:39.040 in order for that to pass.

00:20:40.780 So they would have to be broad, broad consensus.

00:20:44.000 And we would also want a lot more discussion

00:20:46.720 than that happened.

00:20:47.600 And we would not silence the opponents.

00:20:49.480 We would allow everyone to speak

00:20:51.020 and then make a decision.

00:20:52.440 And then the politicians should be responsible for that.

00:20:55.940 There needs to be more separations

00:20:57.500 between public health and the politicians.

00:20:59.300 And there were things from the CBC showing

00:21:03.860 that the government, the CAC government

00:21:07.440 was looking for reasons for that second lockdown.

00:21:11.360 There was no reason for that second lockdown.

00:21:13.500 It was purely political theater.

00:21:15.580 One thing, when you talk about just the shake up

00:21:20.000 or make up rather of the assembly in Quebec,

00:21:22.720 I've seen some of the polling

00:21:23.860 and I know there's the obligatory caveat

00:21:25.560 that the only poll that matters

00:21:26.900 is the one on election day.

00:21:28.300 But nevertheless, polling that shows

00:21:30.340 the CAC could have a significant increase

00:21:33.200 from its seat count in the previous assembly.

00:21:37.760 And while your party is polling at 20%,

00:21:40.060 it's possible that with the distribution,

00:21:41.880 that could amount to no seats.

00:21:43.540 So do you feel that there is some system change

00:21:46.940 that's needed so that when you have a party like yours

00:21:49.480 or another one that's commanding

00:21:50.780 a one-fifth of the vote potentially or even more,

00:21:53.600 that that equates to representation?

00:21:56.300 So we don't actually have an official policy

00:21:59.740 on changing the voting system.

00:22:03.080 Though, interestingly enough,

00:22:04.860 the CAC and two of the other parties

00:22:06.760 actually said they would have changed the voting system.

00:22:09.180 But once again, Mr. Legault actually

00:22:11.540 is not able to keep any of his problems.

00:22:13.480 Yeah, like that's the federal liberals.

00:22:14.820 It's all well and good until you get a majority

00:22:16.840 with a minority of votes.

00:22:17.920 And then, well, maybe the system's fine.

00:22:20.120 The CAC is more like the federal liberals

00:22:22.020 than anything else, unfortunately.

00:22:25.500 And they're quite a divisive party.

00:22:28.460 But, you know, I don't think that's going to happen.

00:22:31.740 I think there are several strongholds

00:22:33.600 that we have in both regions.

00:22:36.160 Both those seats are very much in play.

00:22:38.320 There are several seats in Quebec City that are in play.

00:22:41.700 And there are even a few seats in Montreal that are in play.

00:22:44.460 You know, it's actually quite remarkable.

00:22:46.700 In my writing, I'm running at around 14, 15%,

00:22:49.380 according to Main Street,

00:22:51.100 who's a polling company out of Toronto or Ottawa.

00:22:55.180 I can't remember which.

00:22:56.040 But, I mean, that sounds like a little.

00:23:00.040 But remember, my party was running at 0.5% in that writing.

00:23:03.460 And Kathleen Wild, the previous M&A, 0.51

00:23:07.100 won that writing with over 65% of the vote.

00:23:09.960 And so, you know, we are making progress.

00:23:13.920 And the other problem in this election

00:23:17.820 is the funding model in Quebec.

00:23:19.980 So the maximum donation you can give on an off year

00:23:23.200 for a political party is $100,

00:23:26.880 which basically makes it very hard

00:23:29.220 for a new party to get funding.

00:23:32.500 And in an election year, you can give $200.

00:23:35.000 And you don't even give it to the party.

00:23:36.500 You give it to a Quebec who then gives it to the party. 0.95

00:23:41.480 So, you know, it severely limits fundraising.

00:23:44.900 But in spite of that,

00:23:46.040 we have managed to raise quite a lot of money.

00:23:50.040 Good, good.

00:23:50.720 Well, obviously, we'll have to see what happens on Election Day.

00:23:54.260 Roy Eepin, Dr. Roy Eepin,

00:23:55.600 candidate for the Conservative Party of Quebec

00:23:58.460 in Notre-Dame-de-Grace.

00:23:59.920 Good luck, Roy.

00:24:00.520 And thanks so much for coming on today.

00:24:02.780 Thank you, Andrew.

00:24:03.540 That was Dr. Roy Eepin here on The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:24:07.300 We will be back with more in just a moment.

00:24:10.180 Stay tuned.

00:24:13.640 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:24:18.700 Welcome back to The Andrew Lawton Show here on True North.

00:24:22.320 You're listening to Canada's most irreverent talk show.

00:24:25.620 I want to turn to a bit of a different public policy discussion,

00:24:29.020 which has been brewing for quite a while.

00:24:31.240 I think the better part of five years in this country

00:24:33.880 and has a new development coming ahead.

00:24:36.640 And that is the federal government's war on vaping,

00:24:40.340 which on October 1st is being subjected to a new excise tax

00:24:45.000 that is going into effect,

00:24:46.520 that is pushing up by not an insignificant amount

00:24:49.200 the price of electronic cigarettes, vaping products, and all of that.

00:24:53.840 The government's also talking about putting forward things

00:24:56.340 like a flavor ban and other restrictions.

00:24:59.020 And it seems like there is a lot of agreement largely

00:25:04.220 on the fundamental premise that the tobacco industry

00:25:06.740 and the vaping industry put forward about vaping,

00:25:09.460 which is that it is better than smoking cigarettes.

00:25:11.820 But I think the question comes down to how much better

00:25:15.100 and is it still something that should be encouraged or discouraged?

00:25:18.460 And then, of course, you get to the question of

00:25:20.160 how much should government be at the center

00:25:21.880 of deciding the future of this thing that is legal?

00:25:24.540 And, I mean, as I've said, you see them on pretty much every street corner now

00:25:28.700 in a major city.

00:25:29.520 So I want to talk about this with Ralph Wittenberg,

00:25:32.120 who is the president and CEO of Imperial Tobacco Canada

00:25:35.660 and joins me now.

00:25:37.160 Ralph, good to talk to you.

00:25:38.180 Thanks for coming on today.

00:25:39.800 Good morning, Andrew.

00:25:40.600 Thanks for having me.

00:25:42.040 So just let's start for people that are unfamiliar 0.99

00:25:44.740 with the progression here in the first place.

00:25:48.140 Is vaping a product of the tobacco industry generally?

00:25:51.920 It started really as a grassroots movement.

00:25:56.580 It has been legalized in Canada about four years ago

00:25:59.060 and it really has caught on with consumers.

00:26:02.100 Consumers have tried it, understand the product.

00:26:05.540 And now 1.3 million Canadians are using vaping products.

00:26:10.420 E-cigarettes is the kind of umbrella term.

00:26:13.660 And they really enjoy it.

00:26:15.400 And we're really happy to be part of that and innovate

00:26:20.060 and try to bring great brands and innovation

00:26:23.420 that really inspires consumer.

00:26:25.140 And it's a really dynamic field, four years,

00:26:28.340 and very successful.

00:26:30.560 There seems to be, certainly in the media

00:26:32.900 and government discourse about this,

00:26:35.000 two different and very, I'd say, distinct demographics

00:26:37.940 for vaping.

00:26:39.380 On one side, there's people who have been

00:26:41.160 lifelong cigarette smokers

00:26:43.060 that use vaping as a way to get off of smoking. 0.60

00:26:46.840 And on the other side, it's young people 0.55

00:26:48.740 that are supposedly sucked into vaping,

00:26:51.240 that have never smoked a cigarette in their lives,

00:26:53.260 that are really allured by the marketing and the flavors.

00:26:56.540 Which of these stories is true?

00:26:58.180 Or are they both true to some extent?

00:27:00.080 Well, I think it is an attractive product for consumers.

00:27:04.360 But we are very clear, it has to be an adult product.

00:27:07.100 It contains nicotine.

00:27:09.040 So therefore, together with our retailers,

00:27:12.120 we make sure that it stays out of the hands of miners.

00:27:16.880 So that has to be very clear.

00:27:18.780 Yet we know that some of these always are very creative

00:27:22.320 in trying to test new products, et cetera.

00:27:24.600 But really, it is intended as an alternative for smokers

00:27:27.460 and a less harmful alternative to smokers.

00:27:30.000 That's why we're innovating it.

00:27:31.480 We're trying to make it simple for cigarette smokers

00:27:33.840 to have their flavor choices,

00:27:37.380 to simply change a pot

00:27:40.000 and have an experience that is very similar to cigarettes,

00:27:44.560 but with much more flavors

00:27:46.260 so that they can really get off cigarettes for good.

00:27:51.500 So let me ask you about the contrast between the two,

00:27:55.320 because it is still a nicotine product.

00:27:57.760 It is still something that has that quality that cigarettes do.

00:28:00.760 Is it definitive, is the science definitive

00:28:03.680 in saying what the tobacco industry has been saying

00:28:06.680 for certainly the better part of four years,

00:28:08.860 that it is safer compared to cigarette smoking?

00:28:12.640 Well, it's probably,

00:28:15.040 let's have a look also at the global picture

00:28:17.300 and what others say,

00:28:18.380 and particularly what other health authorities are saying.

00:28:20.920 Public Health England is one of the most vocal ones.

00:28:23.980 They've researched the market for many years now,

00:28:27.500 and they've every year issued a report.

00:28:29.220 They always come to the conclusion

00:28:31.140 that vaping is 95% safer than cigarettes.

00:28:35.940 It has 95% less risk.

00:28:37.720 So it's really significant.

00:28:39.680 And that is what Public Health England is saying.

00:28:42.640 The similar authority in France, New Zealand,

00:28:45.720 they come to the same conclusions.

00:28:47.260 And even Health Canada says

00:28:48.560 that it is a less harmful alternative,

00:28:51.720 particularly to smokers,

00:28:53.040 when you compare it to cigarettes.

00:28:54.520 So it's always about the relative risk to smoking.

00:28:56.900 That's really what it's intended to be.

00:28:59.120 And the majority of the consumers

00:29:00.620 are actually smokers making the switch.

00:29:04.480 One thing that I find interesting

00:29:06.360 that a lot of the critics of vaping

00:29:08.460 in the industry seem to latch onto is flavors.

00:29:10.960 And I know pursuing a ban on flavors

00:29:12.880 has been one of the go-to policy proposals

00:29:15.940 around the world on this.

00:29:17.360 Explain to me where that comes from,

00:29:19.160 why that's the issue that people raise.

00:29:21.000 Well, flavors are really important for everybody,

00:29:25.780 for smokers to find their choice

00:29:29.300 and make the switch from cigarettes.

00:29:32.380 So tobacco flavors,

00:29:33.980 they're also out there in the vaping market.

00:29:36.480 They only account for about 20% of the flavors.

00:29:39.640 So consumers who switch from cigarettes

00:29:41.760 to vaping products,

00:29:42.960 they really enjoy the variety of flavors

00:29:44.820 that they never had in cigarettes.

00:29:46.160 Very successful are fruit flavors

00:29:49.120 and mint flavors,

00:29:53.000 even vanilla and some of the sweeter notes.

00:29:56.500 And everybody really enjoys this.

00:29:59.380 Now, also because it's a new industry

00:30:01.840 and a new category,

00:30:03.480 a lot of starters are also using that.

00:30:06.320 And that's basically where that logic comes.

00:30:11.380 Well, if it's attractive,

00:30:13.280 it's attractive generally for consumers to switch,

00:30:17.600 but also some of the newcomers to the market enjoy flavors.

00:30:22.840 Now, you have to question

00:30:24.140 whether then banning flavors is the right approach

00:30:27.080 because it kind of makes it attractive for everybody

00:30:29.700 and particularly for the smokers

00:30:31.240 who successfully stopped smoking cigarettes.

00:30:33.600 They don't find the flavors they want.

00:30:35.380 And the likelihood

00:30:36.300 and also some of the early evidence

00:30:38.180 from some of the provinces in Canada

00:30:40.900 is they default back into cigarette smoking,

00:30:43.420 which from a public health point of view

00:30:45.480 cannot be a good thing.

00:30:47.200 I know it's not an apples to apples comparison

00:30:49.880 to compare tobacco to alcohol,

00:30:51.700 but the double standard here has always struck me.

00:30:54.360 You walk into an Ontario liquor store,

00:30:57.080 which is government owned

00:30:58.200 or in many other provinces as well,

00:30:59.740 and you have every flavor imaginable of beverage.

00:31:03.160 You've got cotton candy, bubble gum,

00:31:05.100 like even very childlike flavors.

00:31:06.740 And that doesn't attract the ire

00:31:08.820 that it does in your industry.

00:31:11.140 The core of the issue is

00:31:12.740 we have to collectively get these products

00:31:15.600 out of the hands of miners.

00:31:17.600 And it is against the law.

00:31:19.520 The laws are there.

00:31:20.600 The retailers are compliant to it.

00:31:22.480 They check IDs, et cetera,

00:31:24.500 and collectively have to work

00:31:26.440 to restrict the access of consumers

00:31:29.500 and basically have people sticking to the law.

00:31:32.220 But if I may, Ralph,

00:31:33.060 is that not saying that,

00:31:34.620 you know, from the industry perspective,

00:31:36.040 you don't view age as your problem,

00:31:38.980 that that's a retail problem?

00:31:40.740 It is in generally

00:31:41.900 when miners get their hands on the product,

00:31:45.140 it's a problem for us altogether.

00:31:48.100 So, you know,

00:31:49.480 we think the best way to get it out of the hands

00:31:52.140 is basically age verification and access control.

00:31:54.580 It starts with the retailer,

00:31:55.900 but we are our own retailer as well.

00:31:57.640 We have our own retail outlets.

00:31:59.760 We sell online in the provinces where we can.

00:32:02.740 And particularly in online,

00:32:04.440 we have a triple age verification process.

00:32:07.160 So we're trying to use technology

00:32:09.620 to basically prevent you from accessing it.

00:32:12.360 That's probably the most effective way to do it.

00:32:14.960 To restrict access

00:32:17.340 or make the category less attractive to miners

00:32:20.000 means you make it less attractive to everybody,

00:32:22.640 which then in reverse basically means

00:32:25.060 smokers default back to cigarettes,

00:32:27.360 which cannot be a good thing.

00:32:29.020 So really the focus has to be

00:32:30.620 access control and enforcement.

00:32:33.440 So, I mean, I've heard anecdotally,

00:32:35.880 and this isn't scientific data by any stretch,

00:32:37.900 from people that were smokers for years

00:32:40.060 and they absolutely swear by electronic cigarettes now.

00:32:44.100 And there's been, I think, a normalization.

00:32:46.120 I mean, even some people will use them indoors.

00:32:49.280 Usually they're not supposed to,

00:32:50.320 but they'll use them indoors

00:32:51.220 in places that you'd never smoke a cigarette

00:32:52.840 just because I think generally speaking,

00:32:54.500 they've become fairly accepted here.

00:32:57.380 What is the reception you get

00:32:59.420 when you meet with officials in the government,

00:33:01.840 if they even take your meetings?

00:33:03.580 What's their view on these things?

00:33:05.000 Do they view them as being a positive?

00:33:07.220 Do they view them as being a necessary evil?

00:33:09.020 Or do they view them as being

00:33:10.120 no worse than the cigarettes

00:33:11.760 that have been in decline for many years?

00:33:14.980 It's very difficult to see a clear line.

00:33:17.440 But when you look at Health Canada,

00:33:19.820 what they're saying on their website about vaping,

00:33:21.900 it's absolutely the right thing.

00:33:23.800 The core, what we have to bring,

00:33:27.560 what we discuss, is it a good thing?

00:33:29.620 Is it a bad thing?

00:33:30.460 Is it a good alternative?

00:33:31.520 It all has to come back to science.

00:33:33.500 And the overwhelming scientific evidence,

00:33:36.060 not only of the science that we publish,

00:33:38.180 but also that is out there,

00:33:40.060 is that it is a much, much less risky alternative to smoking.

00:33:45.880 So that is the starting point.

00:33:47.340 And then whether you like it or not,

00:33:49.400 there might be different views.

00:33:51.480 But Health Canada basically made it very clear

00:33:53.560 on their website.

00:33:55.800 Now, the policy therefore has to be

00:33:59.860 to keep this product out there.

00:34:02.640 Let us as an industry innovate.

00:34:04.540 Let's evolve the industry.

00:34:05.740 Let's contribute to the science

00:34:07.600 and let's convince as many smokers out there

00:34:11.660 to make better choices for their health

00:34:13.980 using these products instead of cigarettes.

00:34:17.280 But as it is, sometimes the government,

00:34:21.060 the policy proposals that are out there,

00:34:23.060 you have to question whether it is contributing

00:34:25.100 to inform consumers about these alternatives

00:34:28.180 and actually encourage them to switch.

00:34:30.960 Starting with, for example,

00:34:32.860 the current consultation that is out there on flavor beds.

00:34:37.740 You know, and that's where we issued our opinions

00:34:40.520 and said flavors are important.

00:34:43.320 Youth access is important,

00:34:44.520 but let's focus on really youth access prevention

00:34:46.900 and use the best technology and access controls,

00:34:49.480 education of the retailers to enforce the laws.

00:34:53.660 The second thing is excise.

00:34:55.840 It's just coming 1st of October.

00:34:59.160 An excise increase or the first excise

00:35:01.280 on vaping products levied in Canada on a federal level.

00:35:06.440 This will, particularly in the current environment

00:35:09.080 of high inflation,

00:35:11.100 vapors who successfully made the switch away

00:35:14.100 from cigarettes will feel the price increase.

00:35:16.460 And so sometimes you have to question

00:35:22.020 whether these policy proposals that are on the table

00:35:25.240 and the current laws that are being implemented

00:35:27.480 are helping to basically achieve

00:35:30.500 what Health Canada has said

00:35:32.480 to make people aware about these products

00:35:35.080 and actually get them to use it.

00:35:37.620 Would your, from an industry perspective, Ralph,

00:35:40.020 would your ideal position be for government

00:35:42.220 to sort of take its hands off this

00:35:44.660 and respect what industry is doing?

00:35:46.900 Or do you see there as being a role

00:35:48.920 that government should take in this?

00:35:50.300 And if so, what is that?

00:35:52.320 Well, I think given that it is a product

00:35:54.580 that contains nicotine,

00:35:55.660 it absolutely needs to be regulated.

00:35:57.520 Youth access is absolutely the starting point 0.86

00:35:59.920 that we really have to be effective together out there.

00:36:03.160 So it definitely needs to be an industry

00:36:06.020 and a category that needs to be regulated.

00:36:08.920 So youth access, scientific standards,

00:36:12.320 product standards absolutely need to be there.

00:36:15.060 In that, let us innovate, I think is that.

00:36:18.120 Let us market these products responsibly.

00:36:20.620 Let us innovate, make it attractive for smokers to switch.

00:36:25.280 Now, I mean, you're vested interest

00:36:27.520 and you talk about wanting to get smokers off of cigarettes,

00:36:30.680 but obviously you're a company that produces these things,

00:36:33.940 you develop these things,

00:36:34.940 you make money off of these things.

00:36:36.280 So there is a self-interest

00:36:37.420 that I think a lot of skeptical people watching this

00:36:40.500 might not be able to get their heads around here,

00:36:42.300 that you have a financial gain,

00:36:44.620 whether people are smoking cigarettes or using vape.

00:36:47.000 So how do you explain that away

00:36:48.620 and sort of where your priorities are?

00:36:50.600 Well, I think we made it as our global company,

00:36:54.760 our priority to reduce the health impact of our business.

00:36:57.980 And e-cigarettes is one of those innovations and technology

00:37:01.640 that has been proven really successful.

00:37:04.080 Of course, we are a commercial enterprise.

00:37:06.240 Of course, we have shareholders.

00:37:07.400 We are a listed company in London

00:37:08.780 as part of our parent company.

00:37:11.740 And of course, we are out there to make money along the way.

00:37:15.840 But that gives us the ability to invest,

00:37:18.980 to research, to innovate in a way maybe that others can't.

00:37:24.980 And this is where we can contribute something.

00:37:27.780 In a very short period of time,

00:37:29.600 we came as a company,

00:37:30.940 the global leaders in vaping, for example.

00:37:32.900 Now that gives us the ability

00:37:34.240 to develop the next generation of products

00:37:36.820 that even convince more people to make the switch.

00:37:41.360 What is the next frontier?

00:37:43.100 Is there something in the pipeline,

00:37:44.700 either in your company or kind of out there,

00:37:46.820 even in a theoretical sense,

00:37:48.120 that is the next stage in this process,

00:37:50.440 even beyond vaping?

00:37:51.400 Well, first of all, whatever we do,

00:37:54.520 it has to be science-based.

00:37:56.080 Whatever we do, it has to be better than cigarettes.

00:37:58.960 It has to be a less harmful alternative to cigarettes.

00:38:02.020 And globally, what we're seeing

00:38:03.200 is three alternative products

00:38:06.080 that really convince consumers.

00:38:07.760 Vaping, we talked about.

00:38:08.860 That is also, in terms of number of consumers,

00:38:12.000 the most successful one.

00:38:13.940 It has attracted already

00:38:15.560 the biggest number of consumers.

00:38:18.360 The second one is also coming

00:38:21.140 from the scientific evidence

00:38:22.480 that the issue, the health impact

00:38:24.460 from smoking cigarettes

00:38:26.180 comes through the combustion process.

00:38:28.420 So the minute you burn and inhale smoke,

00:38:30.880 that is where the health risks come from.

00:38:33.540 But we also see that some of consumers,

00:38:35.680 they still want the tobacco taste.

00:38:37.620 The vapors want to get away from the tobacco taste,

00:38:39.720 but there are still some

00:38:40.680 who like the taste of tobacco.

00:38:42.640 And there's a technology

00:38:43.680 that heats the tobacco only,

00:38:45.440 that doesn't burn it.

00:38:46.340 And with that, you reduce

00:38:48.900 a lot of the toxic toxicants

00:38:50.640 that appear through the process of combustion.

00:38:54.160 It's called tobacco heating products.

00:38:55.820 Very successful in parts of the world,

00:38:59.620 Asia, Japan, Europe, et cetera.

00:39:02.920 And the third one

00:39:04.240 is smokeless tobacco products,

00:39:07.120 or in our case,

00:39:07.820 where we innovate smokeless nicotine pouches

00:39:10.000 that are tucked under the lip.

00:39:12.020 You don't inhale anymore,

00:39:13.920 but you get the nicotine through the gum.

00:39:15.620 Again, very successful

00:39:17.860 in particularly Northern Europe,

00:39:19.760 where it has a long history.

00:39:21.820 So these are the three main innovation territories

00:39:26.080 that seem to resonate with nicotine users.

00:39:29.000 It's a more modern way,

00:39:31.040 definitely a much less harmful way

00:39:35.100 to consumers' health to enjoy nicotine.

00:39:38.600 Those are the three.

00:39:40.540 Ralph Wittenberg is the president

00:39:42.060 and CEO of Imperial Tobacco Canada.

00:39:44.540 Ralph, thank you very much for coming on

00:39:46.220 and shining a light on this.

00:39:47.140 Appreciate it.

00:39:48.200 Thanks for having me.

00:39:49.720 Nice to talk to you.

00:39:51.180 I should say, I mean,

00:39:52.220 like I said at the beginning,

00:39:53.080 I've never actually touched,

00:39:54.800 no, I've touched an e-cigarette.

00:39:56.100 I picked it up once thinking it was a pen.

00:39:57.480 But other than that,

00:39:58.320 I've never touched one.

00:39:59.300 I've never smoked a cigarette.

00:40:00.300 So I don't have skin in this game.

00:40:01.560 But I am always very interested

00:40:04.740 in how on one hand,

00:40:06.000 we're told this thing is the new evil.

00:40:07.540 And then on the other hand,

00:40:08.500 I hear from not an insignificant number

00:40:10.700 of people in my life who are smokers

00:40:12.500 or have been smokers

00:40:13.400 that have talked about this thing

00:40:14.940 that is very helpful to them,

00:40:16.040 that there is science backing up,

00:40:17.440 that even Health Canada says,

00:40:18.760 if you compare one to the other is less harmful.

00:40:21.860 That doesn't mean it doesn't come

00:40:23.080 without its own harms, however.

00:40:24.440 And I think that it was important

00:40:25.820 that Ralph had to speak to that as well.

00:40:28.020 But obviously this is coming into effect October 1st.

00:40:30.980 So yet another price increase

00:40:32.400 you are going to see in Canada.

00:40:34.420 And that is thanks to a policy

00:40:36.060 that the Trudeau government put in

00:40:37.460 in the federal budget this year.

00:40:39.560 That does it for us for today.

00:40:41.200 We will talk to you with another edition

00:40:43.220 of Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:40:44.920 Soon enough, you're listening

00:40:46.240 to The Andrew Lawton Show on True North.

00:40:48.580 Thank you, God bless,

00:40:49.600 and good day to you all.

00:40:50.620 Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:40:53.300 Support the program by donating to True North

00:40:55.360 at www.tnc.news.

00:41:00.980 Mm-hmm.

00:41:01.780 .

00:41:03.000 .

Juno News - September 27, 2022

Even when lifting restrictions, Trudeau threatens more of them

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