Juno News - September 27, 2022


Even when lifting restrictions, Trudeau threatens more of them


Episode Stats

Length

41 minutes

Words per Minute

167.56635

Word Count

6,881

Sentence Count

438

Misogynist Sentences

3

Hate Speech Sentences

10


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.
00:00:05.720 This is The Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.
00:00:10.800 Coming up, the only way to end COVID restrictions is not by winning court battles,
00:00:14.460 but by winning over hearts and minds.
00:00:16.700 Plus, we talk Quebec politics and the federal government's war on vaping.
00:00:21.180 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.
00:00:24.680 Hello and welcome to you all.
00:00:26.700 This is another edition of Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show, Tuesday, September 27th, 2022.
00:00:33.960 Hope you are having a fantastic day so far.
00:00:37.920 We have a bit of a packed show today.
00:00:40.180 There's been a lot going on and only so many days in the week,
00:00:42.900 so we're trying to get as much as we can in.
00:00:45.480 We're going to be talking about vaping.
00:00:47.120 We're going to be talking about Quebec politics.
00:00:49.500 And of course, you better believe we're going to be talking about the battle over vaccine mandates,
00:00:54.560 not just at Western University in London, Ontario, but also in Canada,
00:01:00.180 where per Justin Trudeau's executive fiat,
00:01:03.440 the mandates at the federal level for borders for air travel will be coming to an end on September 30th,
00:01:11.380 or specifically on October 1st.
00:01:13.300 So if you're traveling on an overnight flight September 1st to,
00:01:16.980 or sorry, September 30th to October 1st,
00:01:19.040 you get to like dramatically rip off your mask mid-flight.
00:01:22.200 If you take off, you may need to arrive camp, but by the time you land, you don't.
00:01:25.760 It's all going to be very exciting.
00:01:27.500 It's Canada.
00:01:28.140 People are probably just going to keep their masks on, but you never know.
00:01:31.460 But I do want to talk about this because I devoted considerable attention last week to saying,
00:01:36.400 even with all these reports coming out,
00:01:38.600 that the mandates are going to be gone by the end of this month,
00:01:41.940 people should not be too excited.
00:01:44.160 And I was not trying to be a Debbie Downer.
00:01:46.680 I always try to be a ray of sunshine if possible.
00:01:49.480 It's very difficult sometimes, but I try.
00:01:52.380 But it was more that the government has never apologized.
00:01:56.460 And it's not, I'm not one of these like really emotional and overly sentimental people that's like,
00:02:01.660 no, you didn't say I'm sorry.
00:02:03.040 So it's, it's more than that.
00:02:04.580 It's because the government says still,
00:02:06.900 and they were clinging to this when they made the announcement yesterday,
00:02:09.640 that this was all about the science and that they haven't changed their minds.
00:02:13.440 The science has changed.
00:02:14.800 It was unsafe to do this a week ago, but now it's safe.
00:02:17.860 And it's the same rationale that they'll use if they bring it back.
00:02:23.440 Because when every other country in the world, for the most part,
00:02:27.400 made the announcements that it was gone,
00:02:29.820 they did it in a celebratory way.
00:02:32.920 When restrictions ended in Israel, when restrictions ended in the UK,
00:02:37.080 when restrictions ended in most American states and so on,
00:02:40.020 it was done because they said, yeah, we beat this.
00:02:42.140 It was like George Bush with the Mission Accomplished banner.
00:02:44.880 Justin Trudeau, while making the announcement that the mandates were ending, said this.
00:02:49.480 We stepped up during this pandemic as individuals,
00:02:53.300 as communities to get vaccinated quicker and to higher levels
00:02:57.240 than just about any other country in the world.
00:02:59.040 And because of that,
00:03:00.480 studies have shown that we avoided hundreds of thousands of deaths
00:03:04.300 because of the decisions that municipalities,
00:03:07.080 the provinces, the federal governments took during this pandemic
00:03:10.760 that kept people safe.
00:03:13.120 And right now, the best thing each of us can do
00:03:16.000 to prevent a resurgence of COVID-19 as winter approaches
00:03:20.600 is to make sure that you get up-to-date in your vaccinations
00:03:25.760 with the new formulations coming out that'll keep us even safer.
00:03:29.140 And that'll mean that we won't need to take further steps,
00:03:33.760 hopefully, if everyone gets vaccinated.
00:03:36.540 So he's not even saying it's over.
00:03:38.580 He's saying, well, it's over for now,
00:03:40.780 but everyone has to get vaccinated
00:03:42.320 because if you don't, I might have to do something else.
00:03:45.500 As though he has no choice, as though he has no autonomy.
00:03:47.700 And it is this sort of Damocles hanging over people's heads
00:03:52.500 that was exactly why when they suspended
00:03:55.580 the air travel vaccine mandate so long ago,
00:03:58.720 I said, I hope the lawsuit carries on.
00:04:01.180 And that lawsuit has been thus far carrying on.
00:04:04.520 Because the government thinks that all of this was good.
00:04:07.320 The government thinks all of this was helpful.
00:04:09.260 The same government that thought we had to put people on planes
00:04:13.020 after they have proven they're vaccinated was a good idea
00:04:16.540 is also the government saying,
00:04:18.600 well, we follow the science, so just trust us.
00:04:20.800 And it's on you.
00:04:21.500 It's not our decision.
00:04:22.820 It's your decision whether we get more restrictions.
00:04:26.440 And this is what's happening now.
00:04:28.220 They're moving the discussion.
00:04:29.660 They're moving the narrative to,
00:04:30.800 as you heard in that clip, up-to-date vaccinations.
00:04:34.620 So if they do put in restrictions,
00:04:36.480 it's not even going to be where your two doses
00:04:38.320 is enough to classify you as fully vaccinated.
00:04:41.500 It's going to be where you need to have a vaccine
00:04:43.960 within the last perhaps six months,
00:04:46.200 maybe even three months.
00:04:47.340 You never know.
00:04:48.280 And that is the only way you get to say
00:04:49.980 that you are up-to-date.
00:04:52.500 And booster mandates,
00:04:53.780 like they have at Western University in London, Ontario,
00:04:56.840 are going to be what replaces
00:04:58.340 the old version of mandates.
00:05:00.840 And just taking a look at the Western situation,
00:05:03.560 on the weekend,
00:05:05.080 the Superior Court of Justice,
00:05:06.720 before whom lawyers for the university
00:05:09.080 and also Lisa Bildy,
00:05:10.440 representing a number of students affected
00:05:12.340 by the vaccine mandate,
00:05:13.840 argued their case.
00:05:15.540 And the court sided with Western.
00:05:18.640 The court released its decision on the weekend
00:05:20.560 saying that Western has the right
00:05:22.920 to manage its own affairs.
00:05:24.820 And it's Western's authority
00:05:26.440 that decides whether this policy is valid or not.
00:05:30.120 It was not a constitutional challenge.
00:05:32.880 And there's a reason for that
00:05:34.420 because they were trying to go after the school
00:05:36.160 on very narrow grounds
00:05:37.340 on the collection of privacy
00:05:39.180 and the obligations and regulations on that.
00:05:42.480 And the court still found a wide latitude,
00:05:45.980 a wide berth that it was able to afford Western
00:05:48.880 that basically say Western can set a policy
00:05:51.460 and then come up with whatever collection mechanism
00:05:55.440 it needs to to enforce that policy.
00:05:59.140 And I find this all to be so disheartening.
00:06:02.200 And it's an example of why
00:06:03.640 the legal battles are important,
00:06:06.500 but they're also not the be-all and end-all
00:06:08.220 because I have a degree of pessimism
00:06:10.000 about where courts are going to land on these issues.
00:06:13.180 Because we know that courts have given governments
00:06:15.460 a lot of deference on this
00:06:18.060 because of the pandemic.
00:06:19.680 They've given governments a lot of latitude to say,
00:06:21.700 well, yeah, it's a deadly pandemic.
00:06:23.900 So even though you're violating constitutional rights,
00:06:25.960 I guess it's demonstrably justified,
00:06:29.420 reasonable limits, free society,
00:06:31.760 all of that stuff.
00:06:32.720 That section one test that most Canadians know now
00:06:35.660 because it's the one that blocks,
00:06:38.140 the one that blocks so much liberty
00:06:41.960 from taking hold in policy
00:06:43.580 because it focuses on government's rationalization
00:06:47.120 for infringements on freedom.
00:06:50.320 So right now we have at the federal level,
00:06:52.620 them saying we have to get rid of these mandates now
00:06:54.740 because the science no longer requires them.
00:06:57.520 And then at one particular university,
00:06:59.720 you have the mandate that is going beyond
00:07:02.960 any mandate the federal government has put in,
00:07:05.180 which it claims is rooted in science.
00:07:08.520 It's amazing how science can say
00:07:10.580 so many different contradictory things.
00:07:13.320 And this is, I think, where the important truth is
00:07:15.580 that people need to understand here.
00:07:17.160 It's not about politics.
00:07:18.380 It's not about the law.
00:07:20.440 It's about culture and it's about society.
00:07:23.760 Government responded to society.
00:07:27.420 It was people.
00:07:28.040 People wanted restrictions.
00:07:30.020 People wanted restrictions.
00:07:31.220 Justin Trudeau won an election
00:07:32.860 on the backs of threatening the unvaccinated
00:07:37.040 by taking away their right to work for the public service,
00:07:40.140 to work, to ride a plane, to ride a train, to all of that.
00:07:44.400 That was something that Justin Trudeau was rewarded for doing.
00:07:49.560 People wanted it.
00:07:50.560 Now, have people changed in the last year?
00:07:52.760 Yes.
00:07:53.040 You throw the convoy, you throw other protests,
00:07:55.120 you throw more pandemic fatigue in there.
00:07:57.620 Totally agree.
00:07:58.440 People change.
00:08:00.380 But the reality is the piece of paper
00:08:02.780 that we call the Constitution is not going to save you.
00:08:06.080 Justin Trudeau, the liberal prime minister,
00:08:07.980 is not going to save you.
00:08:09.620 It's winning over the hearts and minds of people
00:08:12.220 that is, I believe, the only way we turn the page on this.
00:08:17.760 Because if there is no one willing to comply,
00:08:21.900 it doesn't matter what the pieces of paper say.
00:08:24.880 When we come back, I'm going to talk about Quebec politics,
00:08:28.100 the election looming next week,
00:08:30.140 but some bigger picture themes,
00:08:31.320 especially with Quebec's COVID response
00:08:33.680 that I want to get into with Notre Dame de Grasse candidate
00:08:37.060 for the Quebec Conservatives, Dr. Roy Eepin.
00:08:39.680 That's all straight ahead.
00:08:40.880 Stay tuned.
00:08:44.380 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:08:49.680 Welcome back to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:08:51.760 We don't do a lot of Quebec politics on the show,
00:08:53.760 and part of it is because it is just this different animal,
00:08:56.520 as I've always said, and it's something that I don't have a foothold in
00:09:00.200 as much as I do in other forms of politics.
00:09:03.060 But it is important.
00:09:04.400 We've got an election coming up,
00:09:05.800 and there's a new Conservative Party,
00:09:07.820 which I think is very, very much worth pointing out and acknowledging.
00:09:12.220 My colleague, Elie Kensen-Nantel,
00:09:14.060 has been doing a fair bit of coverage on this at True North.
00:09:17.320 But also, I think it's important to point out that the CAQ,
00:09:20.580 the party led by Francois Legault, which is in government now,
00:09:24.080 ran last time as a Conservative Party,
00:09:27.340 and it became the province that had the most draconian restrictions in Canada
00:09:31.400 as far as COVID is concerned,
00:09:33.520 from curfews to the threat of taxing the unvaccinated, you name it.
00:09:38.140 So, Roy Eepin, I have known for many, many years.
00:09:40.960 He's a physician in Montreal.
00:09:42.440 He's also the Quebec Conservative Party's candidate in Notre Dame de Grasse
00:09:47.000 and a fantastic supporter of independent media and True North,
00:09:50.840 and he joins me now.
00:09:52.400 Roy, it is great to talk to you.
00:09:54.040 Thanks for coming on today.
00:09:55.560 Thank you for having me on.
00:09:57.480 I mean, oftentimes, I just want to sort of put this out there
00:10:00.540 for the non-Quebeckers in the audience first.
00:10:03.080 There, I think, is this mystical quality of Quebec politics
00:10:06.740 and that it doesn't really exist on the same plane sometimes
00:10:10.360 and the same coalitions and fault lines as politics in the rest of Canada.
00:10:15.400 So, what is it that the Conservative Party of Quebec
00:10:18.220 has really been about in this election?
00:10:20.620 What are the issues that are really defining your and your party's campaign?
00:10:25.600 So, Eric Duam and I are friends for quite a long time,
00:10:31.140 and Eric has done something quite remarkable.
00:10:33.560 He's trying to move the conversation from the sovereignist,
00:10:37.760 federalist kind of perspective and really talk about issues
00:10:42.060 that affect everyday life.
00:10:45.620 So, things like the pandemic, things like economic affordability,
00:10:49.360 things like the rights of children and the rights of adults.
00:10:52.600 You know, we basically want more freedom.
00:10:56.220 He took the party from 500 members when he first joined,
00:10:59.780 when he first became our leader, to 60,000 members right now,
00:11:04.220 which is pretty much astonishing.
00:11:08.760 And, you know, we've gone from 0.5% of the polls
00:11:13.080 to about 20% of the polls, which is also pretty astonishing.
00:11:16.540 One thing that I saw in the last Quebec election,
00:11:20.960 a lot of Conservatives that were supporting François Legault
00:11:24.800 and the CAQ as an alternative from the Liberals,
00:11:28.440 an alternative from the Parti Québécois,
00:11:30.860 but a lot of these people very disappointed.
00:11:33.100 I think one of the primary frustrations is,
00:11:36.300 outside of COVID, the opposition and hostility
00:11:39.540 to oil and gas development, for example.
00:11:42.480 And also, you look at COVID protocol.
00:11:44.160 Quebec had, among the strictest COVID measures in the country,
00:11:48.300 curfew, threat of attacks on the unvaccinated.
00:11:51.180 Are you sensing, when you talk to people
00:11:53.260 that you're trying to court the votes of,
00:11:55.940 that there was some buyer's remorse in the last election?
00:11:59.780 Oh, very much so.
00:12:01.080 Very much so.
00:12:02.160 If you look at Mr. Legault's promises that he made,
00:12:05.360 he's broken pretty much all of them.
00:12:07.400 He said he was going to cut taxes.
00:12:09.700 He didn't.
00:12:10.500 He said he was going to reduce the size of the civil service.
00:12:12.900 He actually grew it tremendously.
00:12:15.300 He said he was going to allow liquid natural gas exploration.
00:12:20.560 He broke that promise.
00:12:23.200 In fact, there's a lady that was celebrating his victory
00:12:26.760 at one of his victory parties who now is voting against him.
00:12:31.240 So I think there's a lot of buyer's remorse.
00:12:33.680 I mean, he kind of tried to put himself off
00:12:36.840 as sort of middle of the road or even a little bit to the right.
00:12:40.400 And he's not.
00:12:41.480 He's the same leftist as anyone else running, you know, in Quebec.
00:12:48.060 We are the new voice for change.
00:12:50.840 I've heard from a lot of people,
00:12:54.060 specifically Anglophones in Quebec,
00:12:56.560 just this increasing marginalization,
00:12:58.720 which obviously has been going on for many years now.
00:13:00.980 But I mean, even just absurdly earlier in the campaign,
00:13:03.760 Francois Legault apologized for having a French
00:13:06.840 or an English page on his website in addition to a French page.
00:13:10.840 So there is really no place in the existing Quebec political structure
00:13:16.400 for the English minority, is there?
00:13:21.600 So that was kind of embarrassing.
00:13:24.620 And on top of it, he refused to debate in English.
00:13:30.460 There will be no English debate in this election campaign.
00:13:35.740 Eric, on the other hand,
00:13:36.680 has been very open to the English community
00:13:38.680 and other communities in Quebec.
00:13:41.160 He has his nationalist side,
00:13:44.280 but he thinks that Quebecers should all be equal and unite.
00:13:49.520 You know, Francois Legault tries to separate people
00:13:52.520 and we try to unite people.
00:13:55.760 He's done interviews with all kinds of English people.
00:13:59.940 He did a big interview with Jordan Peterson a few weeks ago,
00:14:04.060 which has gotten hundreds of thousands of hits.
00:14:06.840 Eric is very open and the English community
00:14:14.600 should stop feeling held hostage by the Liberal Party
00:14:18.160 and look at other alternatives.
00:14:21.080 And that's actually happening.
00:14:23.000 We have a new law called Bill 96,
00:14:26.360 which is quite oppressive towards English and other minorities.
00:14:30.680 And our party opposes it
00:14:32.700 because it violates the Quebec Human Rights Code 38 times.
00:14:37.840 Any law that violates the Human Rights Code of a province
00:14:42.120 that many times has something seriously wrong with it.
00:14:45.760 So the Liberal Party of Quebec,
00:14:47.800 which has been the traditional party of the Anglophone minority,
00:14:51.060 has done its best to drive the Anglophone minority away.
00:14:55.860 They voted twice for this oppressive Bill 96.
00:14:59.300 On third reading, they did vote against it,
00:15:00.920 but not before they made it worse.
00:15:03.380 And because of that,
00:15:04.640 15 of their 30 members from the last legislature
00:15:08.540 have resigned and are not running again.
00:15:12.120 So the Liberals are in major trouble.
00:15:16.520 And I think that, as Eric says,
00:15:19.060 the English community should not feel held hostage
00:15:21.840 by the Liberal Party of Quebec.
00:15:24.400 Just on Bill 96,
00:15:26.780 I just saw the other day that Otterbox,
00:15:28.900 the largest cell phone case provider,
00:15:31.860 is no longer letting Quebecers purchase cases
00:15:34.440 because they're not convinced
00:15:36.120 they're able to be compliant right now with that.
00:15:39.140 So it's not just about this proclamation
00:15:42.760 that, yes, we support the French language.
00:15:44.680 There are very real-world economic consequences
00:15:46.900 to some of these things.
00:15:48.080 And I do think people suffer from them.
00:15:50.720 I want to just turn to health care, though.
00:15:52.400 This is obviously your specialty, not just as a candidate.
00:15:55.080 You're a physician.
00:15:56.080 You have been for many years.
00:15:57.980 You've come out and talked about some very-
00:16:01.080 I mean, what I would say for a lot of politicians
00:16:02.840 are third rail issues on health care,
00:16:05.480 which is looking at a way to deliver services better
00:16:08.180 and not just rely on government, government, government.
00:16:11.320 And I was wondering if you could explain,
00:16:12.400 I mean, your personal approach to this,
00:16:13.700 but also your parties.
00:16:14.560 So I, along with several other doctors
00:16:18.620 and health professionals, wrote our health policy.
00:16:22.020 We saw from the pandemic
00:16:23.360 that we basically did not have a functioning health system
00:16:27.300 that was able to actually cope with all of these things.
00:16:31.240 So we looked at various other systems of doing health care.
00:16:35.560 We ranked quite lowers for health care
00:16:39.180 compared to other countries.
00:16:40.620 And we looked at countries that did better.
00:16:43.440 You know, people will immediately say
00:16:45.280 that I'm trying to mimic the United States.
00:16:48.220 We're not.
00:16:49.120 We are actually trying to mimic Sweden.
00:16:52.180 Sweden has a system with private health care.
00:16:55.680 We would like eventually to have a private hospital.
00:16:59.420 The Swedish system also has a 30, 60, 90-day guarantee
00:17:02.580 where after 90 days, if the state does not give you health care,
00:17:06.160 the state will be required to pay for private health care.
00:17:10.460 We also want to allow insurance to pay for health care,
00:17:16.020 which will be tax deductible
00:17:17.580 and was allowed under the Shaouli decision,
00:17:21.200 which was several years ago.
00:17:23.020 But the Quebec government seems to have completely ignored
00:17:25.200 the Supreme Court ruling saying that that was possible.
00:17:29.480 We have many other things.
00:17:31.320 For instance, one of the other things I find very interesting
00:17:33.700 that we have in our is that we're giving autonomy insurance.
00:17:37.620 So you can buy autonomy insurance when you're younger
00:17:40.180 or even when you're older to get you into a better nursing home
00:17:44.560 or keep you at home.
00:17:46.460 We think the best thing for older people
00:17:48.480 and people who have illness is to try and keep them at home
00:17:51.800 as much as possible.
00:17:54.080 So this would also open up secondary markets
00:17:57.300 for more private nursing homes and other such things.
00:18:02.720 We also want to change the way that health care is paid for.
00:18:06.460 Instead of giving block grants to hospital,
00:18:08.540 we would allow grants to follow the patient
00:18:12.080 depending where they wanted to go.
00:18:13.840 So we would get even public institutions
00:18:16.300 to compete with each other.
00:18:19.400 Talking about pandemic response specifically,
00:18:22.320 it was hospital capacity,
00:18:23.940 those issues you just alluded to,
00:18:25.720 that was used by government,
00:18:27.580 not just in Quebec, elsewhere in Canada as well,
00:18:29.780 as justification for these measures that are just,
00:18:32.640 in my view, completely antithetical to a free society.
00:18:35.180 The idea that in Quebec people were fined
00:18:37.320 for walking outside their own homes after 8 p.m.,
00:18:41.100 the fact that people were for a time threatened
00:18:43.540 with having to pay the government a fine
00:18:45.920 if they were not vaccinated.
00:18:48.600 I mean, do these things at all fit in with the vision
00:18:51.260 that the Conservative Party of Quebec has for the province?
00:18:54.460 Certainly not.
00:18:57.040 We believe in freedom.
00:18:58.320 We believe in freedom of choice
00:18:59.720 and we believe that in all things Quebecers,
00:19:03.940 the individual Quebecer is better informed
00:19:06.400 and better able to make decisions for his own life
00:19:09.500 than the government.
00:19:10.900 The government should have given advice
00:19:12.540 and left it at that.
00:19:17.460 You know, we had some of the worst lockdown measures
00:19:20.020 in North America,
00:19:20.980 but we had some of the worst death rates
00:19:23.560 in North America.
00:19:24.980 So A did not lead to B.
00:19:27.840 And why is that?
00:19:28.980 We basically have a system of care
00:19:33.220 for elderly people which failed.
00:19:36.300 We also banned the families of these elderly people
00:19:39.600 from going to visiting them in these so-called health facilities.
00:19:44.400 They're called CHLDs.
00:19:47.120 And basically, these older people
00:19:51.200 were not allowed to see their families
00:19:52.980 for prolonged periods of time.
00:19:54.600 And that caused depression.
00:19:57.880 That caused neglect.
00:19:59.660 I mean, families came to wash their family members.
00:20:02.840 They came to feed their family members.
00:20:04.720 They kept them company.
00:20:06.360 And I think we basically should have spent
00:20:09.380 a lot more time examining the harms
00:20:12.160 rather than the unproven benefits.
00:20:14.920 And the evidence is coming out more and more
00:20:17.820 that there were very few benefits.
00:20:21.160 And what we did do was cause a lot of trouble
00:20:23.460 to elderly and young people.
00:20:26.160 And in fact, we have something in our platform
00:20:29.420 that says that if we were in power,
00:20:31.060 we would actually say that if those kind of measures
00:20:33.580 were needed to come back,
00:20:34.840 we would have to have an 80%, 90% majority in the House
00:20:39.040 in order for that to pass.
00:20:40.780 So they would have to be broad, broad consensus.
00:20:44.000 And we would also want a lot more discussion
00:20:46.720 than that happened.
00:20:47.600 And we would not silence the opponents.
00:20:49.480 We would allow everyone to speak
00:20:51.020 and then make a decision.
00:20:52.440 And then the politicians should be responsible for that.
00:20:55.940 There needs to be more separations
00:20:57.500 between public health and the politicians.
00:20:59.300 And there were things from the CBC showing
00:21:03.860 that the government, the CAC government
00:21:07.440 was looking for reasons for that second lockdown.
00:21:11.360 There was no reason for that second lockdown.
00:21:13.500 It was purely political theater.
00:21:15.580 One thing, when you talk about just the shake up
00:21:20.000 or make up rather of the assembly in Quebec,
00:21:22.720 I've seen some of the polling
00:21:23.860 and I know there's the obligatory caveat
00:21:25.560 that the only poll that matters
00:21:26.900 is the one on election day.
00:21:28.300 But nevertheless, polling that shows
00:21:30.340 the CAC could have a significant increase
00:21:33.200 from its seat count in the previous assembly.
00:21:37.760 And while your party is polling at 20%,
00:21:40.060 it's possible that with the distribution,
00:21:41.880 that could amount to no seats.
00:21:43.540 So do you feel that there is some system change
00:21:46.940 that's needed so that when you have a party like yours
00:21:49.480 or another one that's commanding
00:21:50.780 a one-fifth of the vote potentially or even more,
00:21:53.600 that that equates to representation?
00:21:56.300 So we don't actually have an official policy
00:21:59.740 on changing the voting system.
00:22:03.080 Though, interestingly enough,
00:22:04.860 the CAC and two of the other parties
00:22:06.760 actually said they would have changed the voting system.
00:22:09.180 But once again, Mr. Legault actually
00:22:11.540 is not able to keep any of his problems.
00:22:13.480 Yeah, like that's the federal liberals.
00:22:14.820 It's all well and good until you get a majority
00:22:16.840 with a minority of votes.
00:22:17.920 And then, well, maybe the system's fine.
00:22:20.120 The CAC is more like the federal liberals
00:22:22.020 than anything else, unfortunately.
00:22:25.500 And they're quite a divisive party.
00:22:28.460 But, you know, I don't think that's going to happen.
00:22:31.740 I think there are several strongholds
00:22:33.600 that we have in both regions.
00:22:36.160 Both those seats are very much in play.
00:22:38.320 There are several seats in Quebec City that are in play.
00:22:41.700 And there are even a few seats in Montreal that are in play.
00:22:44.460 You know, it's actually quite remarkable.
00:22:46.700 In my writing, I'm running at around 14, 15%,
00:22:49.380 according to Main Street,
00:22:51.100 who's a polling company out of Toronto or Ottawa.
00:22:55.180 I can't remember which.
00:22:56.040 But, I mean, that sounds like a little.
00:23:00.040 But remember, my party was running at 0.5% in that writing.
00:23:03.460 And Kathleen Wild, the previous M&A,
00:23:07.100 won that writing with over 65% of the vote.
00:23:09.960 And so, you know, we are making progress.
00:23:13.920 And the other problem in this election
00:23:17.820 is the funding model in Quebec.
00:23:19.980 So the maximum donation you can give on an off year
00:23:23.200 for a political party is $100,
00:23:26.880 which basically makes it very hard
00:23:29.220 for a new party to get funding.
00:23:32.500 And in an election year, you can give $200.
00:23:35.000 And you don't even give it to the party.
00:23:36.500 You give it to a Quebec who then gives it to the party.
00:23:41.480 So, you know, it severely limits fundraising.
00:23:44.900 But in spite of that,
00:23:46.040 we have managed to raise quite a lot of money.
00:23:50.040 Good, good.
00:23:50.720 Well, obviously, we'll have to see what happens on Election Day.
00:23:54.260 Roy Eepin, Dr. Roy Eepin,
00:23:55.600 candidate for the Conservative Party of Quebec
00:23:58.460 in Notre-Dame-de-Grace.
00:23:59.920 Good luck, Roy.
00:24:00.520 And thanks so much for coming on today.
00:24:02.780 Thank you, Andrew.
00:24:03.540 That was Dr. Roy Eepin here on The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:24:07.300 We will be back with more in just a moment.
00:24:10.180 Stay tuned.
00:24:13.640 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:24:18.700 Welcome back to The Andrew Lawton Show here on True North.
00:24:22.320 You're listening to Canada's most irreverent talk show.
00:24:25.620 I want to turn to a bit of a different public policy discussion,
00:24:29.020 which has been brewing for quite a while.
00:24:31.240 I think the better part of five years in this country
00:24:33.880 and has a new development coming ahead.
00:24:36.640 And that is the federal government's war on vaping,
00:24:40.340 which on October 1st is being subjected to a new excise tax
00:24:45.000 that is going into effect,
00:24:46.520 that is pushing up by not an insignificant amount
00:24:49.200 the price of electronic cigarettes, vaping products, and all of that.
00:24:53.840 The government's also talking about putting forward things
00:24:56.340 like a flavor ban and other restrictions.
00:24:59.020 And it seems like there is a lot of agreement largely
00:25:04.220 on the fundamental premise that the tobacco industry
00:25:06.740 and the vaping industry put forward about vaping,
00:25:09.460 which is that it is better than smoking cigarettes.
00:25:11.820 But I think the question comes down to how much better
00:25:15.100 and is it still something that should be encouraged or discouraged?
00:25:18.460 And then, of course, you get to the question of
00:25:20.160 how much should government be at the center
00:25:21.880 of deciding the future of this thing that is legal?
00:25:24.540 And, I mean, as I've said, you see them on pretty much every street corner now
00:25:28.700 in a major city.
00:25:29.520 So I want to talk about this with Ralph Wittenberg,
00:25:32.120 who is the president and CEO of Imperial Tobacco Canada
00:25:35.660 and joins me now.
00:25:37.160 Ralph, good to talk to you.
00:25:38.180 Thanks for coming on today.
00:25:39.800 Good morning, Andrew.
00:25:40.600 Thanks for having me.
00:25:42.040 So just let's start for people that are unfamiliar
00:25:44.740 with the progression here in the first place.
00:25:48.140 Is vaping a product of the tobacco industry generally?
00:25:51.920 It started really as a grassroots movement.
00:25:56.580 It has been legalized in Canada about four years ago
00:25:59.060 and it really has caught on with consumers.
00:26:02.100 Consumers have tried it, understand the product.
00:26:05.540 And now 1.3 million Canadians are using vaping products.
00:26:10.420 E-cigarettes is the kind of umbrella term.
00:26:13.660 And they really enjoy it.
00:26:15.400 And we're really happy to be part of that and innovate
00:26:20.060 and try to bring great brands and innovation
00:26:23.420 that really inspires consumer.
00:26:25.140 And it's a really dynamic field, four years,
00:26:28.340 and very successful.
00:26:30.560 There seems to be, certainly in the media
00:26:32.900 and government discourse about this,
00:26:35.000 two different and very, I'd say, distinct demographics
00:26:37.940 for vaping.
00:26:39.380 On one side, there's people who have been
00:26:41.160 lifelong cigarette smokers
00:26:43.060 that use vaping as a way to get off of smoking.
00:26:46.840 And on the other side, it's young people
00:26:48.740 that are supposedly sucked into vaping,
00:26:51.240 that have never smoked a cigarette in their lives,
00:26:53.260 that are really allured by the marketing and the flavors.
00:26:56.540 Which of these stories is true?
00:26:58.180 Or are they both true to some extent?
00:27:00.080 Well, I think it is an attractive product for consumers.
00:27:04.360 But we are very clear, it has to be an adult product.
00:27:07.100 It contains nicotine.
00:27:09.040 So therefore, together with our retailers,
00:27:12.120 we make sure that it stays out of the hands of miners.
00:27:16.880 So that has to be very clear.
00:27:18.780 Yet we know that some of these always are very creative
00:27:22.320 in trying to test new products, et cetera.
00:27:24.600 But really, it is intended as an alternative for smokers
00:27:27.460 and a less harmful alternative to smokers.
00:27:30.000 That's why we're innovating it.
00:27:31.480 We're trying to make it simple for cigarette smokers
00:27:33.840 to have their flavor choices,
00:27:37.380 to simply change a pot
00:27:40.000 and have an experience that is very similar to cigarettes,
00:27:44.560 but with much more flavors
00:27:46.260 so that they can really get off cigarettes for good.
00:27:51.500 So let me ask you about the contrast between the two,
00:27:55.320 because it is still a nicotine product.
00:27:57.760 It is still something that has that quality that cigarettes do.
00:28:00.760 Is it definitive, is the science definitive
00:28:03.680 in saying what the tobacco industry has been saying
00:28:06.680 for certainly the better part of four years,
00:28:08.860 that it is safer compared to cigarette smoking?
00:28:12.640 Well, it's probably,
00:28:15.040 let's have a look also at the global picture
00:28:17.300 and what others say,
00:28:18.380 and particularly what other health authorities are saying.
00:28:20.920 Public Health England is one of the most vocal ones.
00:28:23.980 They've researched the market for many years now,
00:28:27.500 and they've every year issued a report.
00:28:29.220 They always come to the conclusion
00:28:31.140 that vaping is 95% safer than cigarettes.
00:28:35.940 It has 95% less risk.
00:28:37.720 So it's really significant.
00:28:39.680 And that is what Public Health England is saying.
00:28:42.640 The similar authority in France, New Zealand,
00:28:45.720 they come to the same conclusions.
00:28:47.260 And even Health Canada says
00:28:48.560 that it is a less harmful alternative,
00:28:51.720 particularly to smokers,
00:28:53.040 when you compare it to cigarettes.
00:28:54.520 So it's always about the relative risk to smoking.
00:28:56.900 That's really what it's intended to be.
00:28:59.120 And the majority of the consumers
00:29:00.620 are actually smokers making the switch.
00:29:04.480 One thing that I find interesting
00:29:06.360 that a lot of the critics of vaping
00:29:08.460 in the industry seem to latch onto is flavors.
00:29:10.960 And I know pursuing a ban on flavors
00:29:12.880 has been one of the go-to policy proposals
00:29:15.940 around the world on this.
00:29:17.360 Explain to me where that comes from,
00:29:19.160 why that's the issue that people raise.
00:29:21.000 Well, flavors are really important for everybody,
00:29:25.780 for smokers to find their choice
00:29:29.300 and make the switch from cigarettes.
00:29:32.380 So tobacco flavors,
00:29:33.980 they're also out there in the vaping market.
00:29:36.480 They only account for about 20% of the flavors.
00:29:39.640 So consumers who switch from cigarettes
00:29:41.760 to vaping products,
00:29:42.960 they really enjoy the variety of flavors
00:29:44.820 that they never had in cigarettes.
00:29:46.160 Very successful are fruit flavors
00:29:49.120 and mint flavors,
00:29:53.000 even vanilla and some of the sweeter notes.
00:29:56.500 And everybody really enjoys this.
00:29:59.380 Now, also because it's a new industry
00:30:01.840 and a new category,
00:30:03.480 a lot of starters are also using that.
00:30:06.320 And that's basically where that logic comes.
00:30:11.380 Well, if it's attractive,
00:30:13.280 it's attractive generally for consumers to switch,
00:30:17.600 but also some of the newcomers to the market enjoy flavors.
00:30:22.840 Now, you have to question
00:30:24.140 whether then banning flavors is the right approach
00:30:27.080 because it kind of makes it attractive for everybody
00:30:29.700 and particularly for the smokers
00:30:31.240 who successfully stopped smoking cigarettes.
00:30:33.600 They don't find the flavors they want.
00:30:35.380 And the likelihood
00:30:36.300 and also some of the early evidence
00:30:38.180 from some of the provinces in Canada
00:30:40.900 is they default back into cigarette smoking,
00:30:43.420 which from a public health point of view
00:30:45.480 cannot be a good thing.
00:30:47.200 I know it's not an apples to apples comparison
00:30:49.880 to compare tobacco to alcohol,
00:30:51.700 but the double standard here has always struck me.
00:30:54.360 You walk into an Ontario liquor store,
00:30:57.080 which is government owned
00:30:58.200 or in many other provinces as well,
00:30:59.740 and you have every flavor imaginable of beverage.
00:31:03.160 You've got cotton candy, bubble gum,
00:31:05.100 like even very childlike flavors.
00:31:06.740 And that doesn't attract the ire
00:31:08.820 that it does in your industry.
00:31:11.140 The core of the issue is
00:31:12.740 we have to collectively get these products
00:31:15.600 out of the hands of miners.
00:31:17.600 And it is against the law.
00:31:19.520 The laws are there.
00:31:20.600 The retailers are compliant to it.
00:31:22.480 They check IDs, et cetera,
00:31:24.500 and collectively have to work
00:31:26.440 to restrict the access of consumers
00:31:29.500 and basically have people sticking to the law.
00:31:32.220 But if I may, Ralph,
00:31:33.060 is that not saying that,
00:31:34.620 you know, from the industry perspective,
00:31:36.040 you don't view age as your problem,
00:31:38.980 that that's a retail problem?
00:31:40.740 It is in generally
00:31:41.900 when miners get their hands on the product,
00:31:45.140 it's a problem for us altogether.
00:31:48.100 So, you know,
00:31:49.480 we think the best way to get it out of the hands
00:31:52.140 is basically age verification and access control.
00:31:54.580 It starts with the retailer,
00:31:55.900 but we are our own retailer as well.
00:31:57.640 We have our own retail outlets.
00:31:59.760 We sell online in the provinces where we can.
00:32:02.740 And particularly in online,
00:32:04.440 we have a triple age verification process.
00:32:07.160 So we're trying to use technology
00:32:09.620 to basically prevent you from accessing it.
00:32:12.360 That's probably the most effective way to do it.
00:32:14.960 To restrict access
00:32:17.340 or make the category less attractive to miners
00:32:20.000 means you make it less attractive to everybody,
00:32:22.640 which then in reverse basically means
00:32:25.060 smokers default back to cigarettes,
00:32:27.360 which cannot be a good thing.
00:32:29.020 So really the focus has to be
00:32:30.620 access control and enforcement.
00:32:33.440 So, I mean, I've heard anecdotally,
00:32:35.880 and this isn't scientific data by any stretch,
00:32:37.900 from people that were smokers for years
00:32:40.060 and they absolutely swear by electronic cigarettes now.
00:32:44.100 And there's been, I think, a normalization.
00:32:46.120 I mean, even some people will use them indoors.
00:32:49.280 Usually they're not supposed to,
00:32:50.320 but they'll use them indoors
00:32:51.220 in places that you'd never smoke a cigarette
00:32:52.840 just because I think generally speaking,
00:32:54.500 they've become fairly accepted here.
00:32:57.380 What is the reception you get
00:32:59.420 when you meet with officials in the government,
00:33:01.840 if they even take your meetings?
00:33:03.580 What's their view on these things?
00:33:05.000 Do they view them as being a positive?
00:33:07.220 Do they view them as being a necessary evil?
00:33:09.020 Or do they view them as being
00:33:10.120 no worse than the cigarettes
00:33:11.760 that have been in decline for many years?
00:33:14.980 It's very difficult to see a clear line.
00:33:17.440 But when you look at Health Canada,
00:33:19.820 what they're saying on their website about vaping,
00:33:21.900 it's absolutely the right thing.
00:33:23.800 The core, what we have to bring,
00:33:27.560 what we discuss, is it a good thing?
00:33:29.620 Is it a bad thing?
00:33:30.460 Is it a good alternative?
00:33:31.520 It all has to come back to science.
00:33:33.500 And the overwhelming scientific evidence,
00:33:36.060 not only of the science that we publish,
00:33:38.180 but also that is out there,
00:33:40.060 is that it is a much, much less risky alternative to smoking.
00:33:45.880 So that is the starting point.
00:33:47.340 And then whether you like it or not,
00:33:49.400 there might be different views.
00:33:51.480 But Health Canada basically made it very clear
00:33:53.560 on their website.
00:33:55.800 Now, the policy therefore has to be
00:33:59.860 to keep this product out there.
00:34:02.640 Let us as an industry innovate.
00:34:04.540 Let's evolve the industry.
00:34:05.740 Let's contribute to the science
00:34:07.600 and let's convince as many smokers out there
00:34:11.660 to make better choices for their health
00:34:13.980 using these products instead of cigarettes.
00:34:17.280 But as it is, sometimes the government,
00:34:21.060 the policy proposals that are out there,
00:34:23.060 you have to question whether it is contributing
00:34:25.100 to inform consumers about these alternatives
00:34:28.180 and actually encourage them to switch.
00:34:30.960 Starting with, for example,
00:34:32.860 the current consultation that is out there on flavor beds.
00:34:37.740 You know, and that's where we issued our opinions
00:34:40.520 and said flavors are important.
00:34:43.320 Youth access is important,
00:34:44.520 but let's focus on really youth access prevention
00:34:46.900 and use the best technology and access controls,
00:34:49.480 education of the retailers to enforce the laws.
00:34:53.660 The second thing is excise.
00:34:55.840 It's just coming 1st of October.
00:34:59.160 An excise increase or the first excise
00:35:01.280 on vaping products levied in Canada on a federal level.
00:35:06.440 This will, particularly in the current environment
00:35:09.080 of high inflation,
00:35:11.100 vapors who successfully made the switch away
00:35:14.100 from cigarettes will feel the price increase.
00:35:16.460 And so sometimes you have to question
00:35:22.020 whether these policy proposals that are on the table
00:35:25.240 and the current laws that are being implemented
00:35:27.480 are helping to basically achieve
00:35:30.500 what Health Canada has said
00:35:32.480 to make people aware about these products
00:35:35.080 and actually get them to use it.
00:35:37.620 Would your, from an industry perspective, Ralph,
00:35:40.020 would your ideal position be for government
00:35:42.220 to sort of take its hands off this
00:35:44.660 and respect what industry is doing?
00:35:46.900 Or do you see there as being a role
00:35:48.920 that government should take in this?
00:35:50.300 And if so, what is that?
00:35:52.320 Well, I think given that it is a product
00:35:54.580 that contains nicotine,
00:35:55.660 it absolutely needs to be regulated.
00:35:57.520 Youth access is absolutely the starting point
00:35:59.920 that we really have to be effective together out there.
00:36:03.160 So it definitely needs to be an industry
00:36:06.020 and a category that needs to be regulated.
00:36:08.920 So youth access, scientific standards,
00:36:12.320 product standards absolutely need to be there.
00:36:15.060 In that, let us innovate, I think is that.
00:36:18.120 Let us market these products responsibly.
00:36:20.620 Let us innovate, make it attractive for smokers to switch.
00:36:25.280 Now, I mean, you're vested interest
00:36:27.520 and you talk about wanting to get smokers off of cigarettes,
00:36:30.680 but obviously you're a company that produces these things,
00:36:33.940 you develop these things,
00:36:34.940 you make money off of these things.
00:36:36.280 So there is a self-interest
00:36:37.420 that I think a lot of skeptical people watching this
00:36:40.500 might not be able to get their heads around here,
00:36:42.300 that you have a financial gain,
00:36:44.620 whether people are smoking cigarettes or using vape.
00:36:47.000 So how do you explain that away
00:36:48.620 and sort of where your priorities are?
00:36:50.600 Well, I think we made it as our global company,
00:36:54.760 our priority to reduce the health impact of our business.
00:36:57.980 And e-cigarettes is one of those innovations and technology
00:37:01.640 that has been proven really successful.
00:37:04.080 Of course, we are a commercial enterprise.
00:37:06.240 Of course, we have shareholders.
00:37:07.400 We are a listed company in London
00:37:08.780 as part of our parent company.
00:37:11.740 And of course, we are out there to make money along the way.
00:37:15.840 But that gives us the ability to invest,
00:37:18.980 to research, to innovate in a way maybe that others can't.
00:37:24.980 And this is where we can contribute something.
00:37:27.780 In a very short period of time,
00:37:29.600 we came as a company,
00:37:30.940 the global leaders in vaping, for example.
00:37:32.900 Now that gives us the ability
00:37:34.240 to develop the next generation of products
00:37:36.820 that even convince more people to make the switch.
00:37:41.360 What is the next frontier?
00:37:43.100 Is there something in the pipeline,
00:37:44.700 either in your company or kind of out there,
00:37:46.820 even in a theoretical sense,
00:37:48.120 that is the next stage in this process,
00:37:50.440 even beyond vaping?
00:37:51.400 Well, first of all, whatever we do,
00:37:54.520 it has to be science-based.
00:37:56.080 Whatever we do, it has to be better than cigarettes.
00:37:58.960 It has to be a less harmful alternative to cigarettes.
00:38:02.020 And globally, what we're seeing
00:38:03.200 is three alternative products
00:38:06.080 that really convince consumers.
00:38:07.760 Vaping, we talked about.
00:38:08.860 That is also, in terms of number of consumers,
00:38:12.000 the most successful one.
00:38:13.940 It has attracted already
00:38:15.560 the biggest number of consumers.
00:38:18.360 The second one is also coming
00:38:21.140 from the scientific evidence
00:38:22.480 that the issue, the health impact
00:38:24.460 from smoking cigarettes
00:38:26.180 comes through the combustion process.
00:38:28.420 So the minute you burn and inhale smoke,
00:38:30.880 that is where the health risks come from.
00:38:33.540 But we also see that some of consumers,
00:38:35.680 they still want the tobacco taste.
00:38:37.620 The vapors want to get away from the tobacco taste,
00:38:39.720 but there are still some
00:38:40.680 who like the taste of tobacco.
00:38:42.640 And there's a technology
00:38:43.680 that heats the tobacco only,
00:38:45.440 that doesn't burn it.
00:38:46.340 And with that, you reduce
00:38:48.900 a lot of the toxic toxicants
00:38:50.640 that appear through the process of combustion.
00:38:54.160 It's called tobacco heating products.
00:38:55.820 Very successful in parts of the world,
00:38:59.620 Asia, Japan, Europe, et cetera.
00:39:02.920 And the third one
00:39:04.240 is smokeless tobacco products,
00:39:07.120 or in our case,
00:39:07.820 where we innovate smokeless nicotine pouches
00:39:10.000 that are tucked under the lip.
00:39:12.020 You don't inhale anymore,
00:39:13.920 but you get the nicotine through the gum.
00:39:15.620 Again, very successful
00:39:17.860 in particularly Northern Europe,
00:39:19.760 where it has a long history.
00:39:21.820 So these are the three main innovation territories
00:39:26.080 that seem to resonate with nicotine users.
00:39:29.000 It's a more modern way,
00:39:31.040 definitely a much less harmful way
00:39:35.100 to consumers' health to enjoy nicotine.
00:39:38.600 Those are the three.
00:39:40.540 Ralph Wittenberg is the president
00:39:42.060 and CEO of Imperial Tobacco Canada.
00:39:44.540 Ralph, thank you very much for coming on
00:39:46.220 and shining a light on this.
00:39:47.140 Appreciate it.
00:39:48.200 Thanks for having me.
00:39:49.720 Nice to talk to you.
00:39:51.180 I should say, I mean,
00:39:52.220 like I said at the beginning,
00:39:53.080 I've never actually touched,
00:39:54.800 no, I've touched an e-cigarette.
00:39:56.100 I picked it up once thinking it was a pen.
00:39:57.480 But other than that,
00:39:58.320 I've never touched one.
00:39:59.300 I've never smoked a cigarette.
00:40:00.300 So I don't have skin in this game.
00:40:01.560 But I am always very interested
00:40:04.740 in how on one hand,
00:40:06.000 we're told this thing is the new evil.
00:40:07.540 And then on the other hand,
00:40:08.500 I hear from not an insignificant number
00:40:10.700 of people in my life who are smokers
00:40:12.500 or have been smokers
00:40:13.400 that have talked about this thing
00:40:14.940 that is very helpful to them,
00:40:16.040 that there is science backing up,
00:40:17.440 that even Health Canada says,
00:40:18.760 if you compare one to the other is less harmful.
00:40:21.860 That doesn't mean it doesn't come
00:40:23.080 without its own harms, however.
00:40:24.440 And I think that it was important
00:40:25.820 that Ralph had to speak to that as well.
00:40:28.020 But obviously this is coming into effect October 1st.
00:40:30.980 So yet another price increase
00:40:32.400 you are going to see in Canada.
00:40:34.420 And that is thanks to a policy
00:40:36.060 that the Trudeau government put in
00:40:37.460 in the federal budget this year.
00:40:39.560 That does it for us for today.
00:40:41.200 We will talk to you with another edition
00:40:43.220 of Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.
00:40:44.920 Soon enough, you're listening
00:40:46.240 to The Andrew Lawton Show on True North.
00:40:48.580 Thank you, God bless,
00:40:49.600 and good day to you all.
00:40:50.620 Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:40:53.300 Support the program by donating to True North
00:40:55.360 at www.tnc.news.
00:41:00.980 Mm-hmm.
00:41:01.780 .
00:41:03.000 .