Juno News - April 19, 2024


Ex-Liberal MP reveals why Trudeau is losing grip on his party

Topics
oil industry and energy policies
Mentioned
Andrew Lawton Show Justin Trudeau Dan McTague Tony Abbott Jean-Clairet
Poilievre and Trudeau face off on housing crisis Smith responds to guilty verdict for Coutts 3

Episode Stats


Length

8 minutes

Words per minute

221.37

Word count

1,823

Sentence count

115

Harmful content

Misogyny

1

sentences flagged

Hate speech

2

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Former Liberal MP Dan McTagg joins us to talk about his opposition to the Trudeau government's environmental policies, and why he thinks Justin Trudeau should go back to the polls in 2015. He also talks about why he doesn't think the Liberal Party is as good at representing the common person as it is now, and what he would do if he was re-elected.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.000 Well, we've talked a lot about the changing tides in politics.
00:00:12.380 People can become unlikely allies and unlikely enemies.
00:00:15.880 But one of the most stalwart opponents of some of the very damaging
00:00:20.380 and economically harmful environmental policies we've seen in recent years
00:00:24.820 has been from a former Liberal member of Parliament, Dan McTagg.
00:00:27.960 Now, I don't want to be reductivist.
00:00:29.560 He's got a long and storied career outside of his time in Parliament as a Liberal MP.
00:00:33.900 He was, like, always the go-to guy when I was in talk radio on gas prices.
00:00:37.880 And now he's the president of Canadians for Affordable Energy and joins us now.
00:00:42.080 Dan, good to talk to you in the flesh. Thanks for sitting down today.
00:00:44.480 It's finally good to be here and after such a long time, Andrew.
00:00:47.200 Yeah, you know, there are some people that haven't followed your post-political work
00:00:50.580 would be surprised when they look at you on Twitter and be like,
00:00:53.460 former Liberal MP says what?
00:00:54.860 But you've been such an incredible critic of a lot of this government's environmental and economic policies.
00:01:01.000 And I wanted to ask you more broadly how you and the Liberal Party diverge so much.
00:01:06.680 Well, I think the Liberal Party diverges from where the Liberal Party was.
00:01:09.900 Members like myself who had the consumer file, the consular file,
00:01:12.960 people who were always concerned about bread and butter issues, being able to make ends meet,
00:01:17.480 recognizing that the country is a very diverse nation,
00:01:21.080 not just physically, not just culturally, but in terms of its economy.
00:01:26.800 Manufacturing, mining, forestry, agriculture and energy.
00:01:30.420 And all those things combined have been really at the core of why we're a wealthy nation.
00:01:34.680 We have in this government, particularly under Justin Trudeau,
00:01:37.880 a deviation from a significant one to the point where these things are being excluded, ignored,
00:01:42.620 in some cases reviled, and it's having an impact on the bottom line for every Canadian.
00:01:47.780 Is your experience, it's unique to you obviously, given that you were an MP,
00:01:52.000 but is your experience something you've seen reflected in other people you've spoken to
00:01:55.180 where they've gone through a very similar trajectory to you on these issues or even other ones?
00:01:59.920 A lot of them have simply moved on.
00:02:01.720 When I was elected, I was 31 years of age, 30, 31, I can't remember the time.
00:02:05.100 A young guy, just married, a wonderful wife, and I was the youngest of the group.
00:02:10.680 The average age was 55.
00:02:12.400 Many of those members of Parliament are since deceased, moved on, or very much in their age.
00:02:16.540 So it's hard for me to calibrate with others.
00:02:18.680 Yeah, that's fair.
00:02:19.200 There's no doubt that being in power has made a lot of people believe,
00:02:22.040 hey, I just want to be a liberal, I'm always a liberal, I'll remain that way.
00:02:24.660 I have never been a member of any other party,
00:02:26.500 but this is no longer the party that I've served since 1978.
00:02:30.060 Explain to me what they're getting so wrong,
00:02:33.080 because it's one thing to say I don't like the carbon tax because it's going to make things more expensive.
00:02:36.420 You're actually an expert in this space.
00:02:38.440 I mean, you know fuel prices better than anyone else,
00:02:40.340 and you also, by extension, know a lot of the policies and drivers around those things better than most.
00:02:45.220 Party used to have something called pragmatism.
00:02:47.260 It's really the way in which it survived.
00:02:49.240 It became the big tent party that attracted so many,
00:02:52.440 on the right, on the left, depending on the region of the country,
00:02:55.360 different languages, different cultures, different backgrounds, agnostics,
00:02:58.580 whatever the case may be,
00:02:59.300 there was always a place for you in the party,
00:03:01.840 and you could express those.
00:03:03.360 You could articulate those.
00:03:04.380 You could actually make changes.
00:03:05.880 Private members' bills.
00:03:07.080 That's been lost, and it's become very conformist.
00:03:09.680 It's become very uniform.
00:03:11.580 It's very rigid,
00:03:12.820 and it's all really under the cult of personality of one individual.
00:03:15.760 So whatever Justin Trudeau,
00:03:16.920 and the name's important because, of course,
00:03:18.380 that's why a lot of Canadians put them back in power in 2015,
00:03:21.340 but they don't represent, I think, the common person
00:03:25.440 as we're currently seeing today,
00:03:27.340 and a lot of people feel estranged not just from the political process
00:03:30.180 but this government in particular.
00:03:31.900 I think it's a dangerous sign, by the way,
00:03:33.480 because as I see this, without any,
00:03:36.660 I am not a member of the party,
00:03:37.900 I see the Conservatives moving further to the centre,
00:03:40.020 picking up those votes,
00:03:41.120 and they're basically legion.
00:03:43.200 That's why they will win the next election.
00:03:44.400 If you were Environment Minister right now,
00:03:47.200 or you were Resource Minister,
00:03:48.520 pick one of those ones that has control over this file.
00:03:51.340 What would be that vision that you would present,
00:03:53.540 where you get to tackle all of these things
00:03:54.920 that the government says are a problem and a priority,
00:03:57.080 but in a way that doesn't damage and harm consumers and industries?
00:04:00.780 I would listen to those consumers first.
00:04:02.380 I go to Quebec and realise that most people in Quebec support pipelines,
00:04:05.080 not as the elites are saying.
00:04:06.360 I would ignore the elites.
00:04:07.380 The top 20% who have a lot of money
00:04:08.760 and don't care what this is going to cost them
00:04:10.320 have ignored the bottom 80%.
00:04:12.220 That's where the middle class was. 0.99
00:04:14.120 I want to do something tomorrow night,
00:04:15.420 I'd say build a pipeline east, build a pipeline west.
00:04:17.320 I don't say that because I like the industry.
00:04:19.080 They don't like me, and I don't like them.
00:04:20.560 And I've been predicting gas prices
00:04:22.040 that's caused them tens of millions of dollars in lost revenue.
00:04:24.760 By predicting gas prices,
00:04:25.720 by the way, it's going to be up 10 cents a litre
00:04:26.920 between now and next week.
00:04:27.980 It's already starting in Atlanta, Canada.
00:04:29.360 A number of reasons for that.
00:04:30.460 You heard it here first, folks.
00:04:31.600 That's right.
00:04:32.360 So if you're paying $1.64 in Toronto today,
00:04:35.200 you'll be paying $1.74 next week, Andrew.
00:04:37.200 The reality is that energy is extremely important.
00:04:39.680 It permeates our entire life.
00:04:41.760 To ignore it, to trivialise it,
00:04:43.320 or to create a narrative that says we can get rid of it
00:04:45.560 is insane.
00:04:46.780 I mean, at the end of the day,
00:04:48.500 Canada, I think, increasingly is going to start
00:04:50.260 to get back to those pragmatic ways
00:04:51.880 and say energy is our future.
00:04:53.760 We want to maintain our standard of living.
00:04:55.300 We better reinvest in it and do the things right,
00:04:57.380 which the rest of the world is knocking on our door
00:04:59.100 and asking for.
00:04:59.640 And I think what's interesting about that
00:05:01.760 is that oftentimes you hear a debate,
00:05:04.200 even among conservative politicians,
00:05:05.860 about the value of a consumer carbon price
00:05:08.200 versus something that's more targeted at industry.
00:05:10.040 Now, I've always taken the view
00:05:11.280 that that's a bit deceptive
00:05:12.400 because no matter what, that's getting trickled down.
00:05:14.300 A company is not saying,
00:05:15.340 all right, well, we're paying it,
00:05:16.780 therefore it won't be passed down.
00:05:18.740 The only thing that changes
00:05:19.640 is you don't have the line item on the receipt.
00:05:21.340 And in that sense, I guess,
00:05:22.140 a consumer carbon tax is somewhat more transparent.
00:05:24.960 Is your view that the mechanism itself is flawed
00:05:27.040 or that there's a better way to do it?
00:05:28.460 Well, I think what we want,
00:05:30.620 the aspirational goals are important,
00:05:32.680 but we've done too much aspiration.
00:05:34.220 We haven't done reality.
00:05:35.660 And if we want to achieve those things through technology,
00:05:39.500 then let's by all means do that.
00:05:40.740 But by the way, while we're doing that,
00:05:41.980 take inventory of the great things
00:05:43.180 that we've done in this country.
00:05:44.280 As I said, I'm not here to rah-rah for the oil industry,
00:05:46.780 but Canadians have this tendency of saying,
00:05:48.320 ah, shucks, we're not great.
00:05:49.840 We have to do more.
00:05:51.580 Let's do that practically
00:05:53.140 when these things become available.
00:05:54.700 And it's nice to say, no taxes.
00:05:56.440 Let's synthesize tech.
00:05:57.540 We can do that.
00:05:58.820 But let's ensure that we have
00:06:00.100 and respect the laws of physics and thermodynamics.
00:06:03.380 In all of these things that we want to accomplish,
00:06:05.080 I think we have to be realistic.
00:06:06.700 The world wants more energy.
00:06:08.080 They specifically want more Canadian energy.
00:06:11.080 And as a result of creating another $150,
00:06:14.280 $200 billion in economic activity,
00:06:16.300 I can create more hospitals in this country.
00:06:18.280 The Liberals of my time always said,
00:06:19.960 we are going to take the measures
00:06:21.440 of ensuring that we build pipelines,
00:06:23.380 that we get our financial house in order,
00:06:24.840 so we maintain the standard of living that Canadians come to expect.
00:06:28.880 Unfortunately, this group of Liberals has simply lost their way here
00:06:31.660 and decided that those are no longer values worth holding.
00:06:34.760 I believe the rest of the world is finally saying,
00:06:36.240 as the Europeans are saying today,
00:06:37.600 put a pause on this stuff.
00:06:38.560 Well, and that's such a crucial point.
00:06:39.820 And I was speaking about this with Tony Abbott from Australia earlier.
00:06:43.300 And one of the things that he brought up is that
00:06:44.780 there are lots of people that say they care about this,
00:06:46.840 but when push comes to shove
00:06:47.700 and you ask how much they're willing to pay for it,
00:06:49.900 it's amazing how little they really do
00:06:51.960 and how a lot of these policies are really luxury items
00:06:54.580 for the elites.
00:06:57.240 And I think that's a point that's missing in Canada.
00:06:59.300 I mean, when a lot of these measures are put forward,
00:07:01.460 it's really saying that things like driving,
00:07:03.600 which if you live in rural Alberta, rural Ontario,
00:07:06.180 saying that's discretionary,
00:07:07.580 when for a lot of people it isn't.
00:07:08.900 No.
00:07:09.700 Look, carbon taxes are the low-hanging fruit.
00:07:11.920 But when you start talking about clean fuel standards,
00:07:14.700 which is not going to be rebated,
00:07:16.540 which a lot of people don't know about,
00:07:17.760 which industry is saying, yeah, we'll go along with it,
00:07:20.020 comfortable in the knowledge they can pass it on to consumers.
00:07:23.260 Same thing for all of these other mandates.
00:07:25.420 We want to pursue them,
00:07:26.380 but I think we need to take a bit of a step back.
00:07:28.220 Jean-Clairet saying he's always say,
00:07:29.540 I want to look before I jump in the pool,
00:07:31.720 make sure there's water in there.
00:07:32.640 And he was right.
00:07:33.700 I think what we've wanted to do is well-intentioned.
00:07:36.680 And that's where Canadians are. 0.53
00:07:37.380 They want to be the right thing.
00:07:38.520 But they also don't want to do it in a way
00:07:40.520 that's damaging their prosperity, their future.
00:07:42.840 And as a result,
00:07:44.100 turning a lot of people away from the very goals
00:07:45.880 that the environmental movement wants us to be towards.
00:07:49.280 There is a compromise.
00:07:50.340 It's the Canadian way.
00:07:51.640 But we've become so uniquely focused on damaging one industry,
00:07:54.920 manufacturing, oil and gas, mining, forestry,
00:07:58.780 that we've done ourselves a significant economic
00:08:02.400 and social service.
00:08:03.760 Dan McTagg, thank you.
00:08:04.860 It's always a pleasure.
00:08:05.520 Thanks, Andrew.
00:08:05.860 Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:08:08.620 Support the program by donating to True North
00:08:10.680 at www.tnc.news.