Juno News - Expelling critics from caucus isn't leadership

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:06.660 This is the Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:00:12.860 Coming up, Aaron O'Toole cracks the whip to quell dissent.

00:00:16.140 Is it hate speech to fly an F. Trudeau flag?

00:00:19.060 And a conversation with Libertarian Party leader Jacques Boudreau.

00:00:23.880 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.

00:00:30.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:33.060 This is the Andrew Lawton Show on True North, Thursday, November 18th, 2021.

00:00:38.760 It is my pleasure, nay, it is my privilege to have you aboard the program today.

00:00:43.600 We're going to be talking about Libertarian politics, free speech,

00:00:46.900 and of course the fight over Aaron O'Toole's leadership.

00:00:50.880 I know it sounds a little bit familiar, right?

00:00:52.700 This is what we talked about on the Tuesday show.

00:00:55.220 We even had Conservative Senator Denise Batters on the program, 1.00

00:00:58.720 except by the time the show aired, she was no longer Conservative Senator Denise Batters. 0.83

00:01:05.000 She was a Senator, she was a small-c Conservative,

00:01:07.460 but she was no longer a big-c Conservative caucus member,

00:01:11.620 having been summarily expelled from the Conservative Party caucus by Aaron O'Toole

00:01:16.280 because she decided to challenge Aaron O'Toole's leadership of the Conservatives.

00:01:22.060 Here's the timeline.

00:01:24.340 On Monday, Denise Batters releases a petition, says Aaron O'Toole has flip-flopped on policies,

00:01:29.220 he's thrown the party under the bus, he's not trusted by Canadians,

00:01:32.860 he's not poised to win an election when that time comes,

00:01:36.140 so Conservative members should have a say over his leadership.

00:01:39.160 That was her view.

00:01:40.360 On Tuesday, she came on the show.

00:01:42.340 We had a great chat.

00:01:43.320 She restated that.

00:01:44.480 She said she could be wrong, but she thinks the members need to have a say.

00:01:48.640 And you know what?

00:01:49.560 We pre-record things, of course, because it is a podcast and you get better quality

00:01:53.320 if you've been able to do that.

00:01:54.960 The challenge is, every now and then, by the time you hit that publish button,

00:01:58.740 something has changed that upends what you were talking about on the show.

00:02:03.060 And in this case, it was almost exactly at that moment that we published

00:02:07.700 that Aaron O'Toole had apparently announced that he had kicked her out of caucus.

00:02:12.380 Denise Batters said it was in a voicemail.

00:02:14.900 She even took a screenshot of the no-caller ID phone number that had,

00:02:19.900 well, I guess absence of a phone number, that had tried to reach out to her.

00:02:23.240 And it was Aaron O'Toole telling her in a voicemail she was no longer in the Conservative caucus.

00:02:28.640 Now, Aaron O'Toole's brief statement here says he will not tolerate an individual discrediting

00:02:35.020 and showing a clear lack of respect towards the efforts of the entire Conservative caucus

00:02:40.040 who are holding the corrupt and disastrous Trudeau government to account.

00:02:43.440 Just eight weeks ago, Canadians elected Conservatives to hold Justin Trudeau accountable

00:02:48.000 for his economic mismanagement and fight the cost of living crisis,

00:02:52.360 skyrocketing inflation, and the supply chain issues that are crippling businesses.

00:02:56.620 That is our focus as a team, unquote.

00:02:59.880 There are a couple of things that I want to point out here.

00:03:02.900 Nowhere in this statement does he say what's actually happened,

00:03:06.260 which is that she has taken aim at him.

00:03:09.120 He says she's discredited and disrespected the entire Conservative caucus.

00:03:13.820 You know, I spoke with Denise for, I think it was, what, maybe 15 minutes or so,

00:03:17.080 and I didn't hear anything in there that was disrespectful to the caucus.

00:03:20.520 Of course, Michelle Rempel-Garner had said that what Senator Batters was doing

00:03:24.620 was distracting people from the work that Conservative MPs were doing.

00:03:28.680 But that's a little bit of a convoluted path to she's taking a flamethrower to the party itself. 1.00

00:03:35.660 But I want to jump in on this line here because I had to kind of roll my eyes at it,

00:03:40.260 but it's very important to understand this honestly.

00:03:43.560 Aaron O'Toole's statement says,

00:03:45.520 eight weeks ago, Canadians elected Conservatives to hold Justin Trudeau accountable.

00:03:51.480 Canadians did not elect Conservatives at all to do anything eight weeks ago.

00:03:55.820 That's the whole point.

00:03:56.680 That's why we're having discussions about what went wrong.

00:03:59.560 That's why the Conservative Party has launched a review of the election.

00:04:03.420 That's why Aaron O'Toole is facing a call from inside the House to resign in some cases.

00:04:09.400 Canadians did not elect the Conservatives.

00:04:11.340 You don't get elected to be the opposition.

00:04:13.460 You end up in opposition when you lose.

00:04:16.440 But the Conservatives are still trying to spin everything that happened on September,

00:04:20.040 what was it, September 20th, as a victory.

00:04:22.080 They still don't accept or even concede that they lost.

00:04:27.820 They're trying to say everything's fine, everything's hunky-dory.

00:04:30.940 No, no, no.

00:04:31.320 Canadians elected us to hold Justin Trudeau to account.

00:04:33.680 No, what that actually means is that Canadians elected Justin Trudeau.

00:04:37.380 So let's at least have an honest discussion about what happened so that you can have an

00:04:43.840 honest discussion about what comes next.

00:04:45.820 And the reason is the primary defense of Aaron O'Toole right now, the primary defense of his

00:04:51.040 leadership is that he was just, he was just almost there.

00:04:53.500 It was so close.

00:04:54.420 He was just like a stone's throw away from victory.

00:04:56.660 He could see it.

00:04:57.460 He could smell it.

00:04:58.160 He could taste it.

00:04:58.900 It was almost there.

00:04:59.880 And it's going to be there next time.

00:05:01.980 Now, that may well be true.

00:05:04.240 But I maintain what I said on Tuesday, that Aaron O'Toole needs to do what he has not done

00:05:09.080 yet, which is actually sell and defend his leadership.

00:05:12.240 Apart from, well, we almost won and there could be an election within 18 months.

00:05:16.580 Tell Canadians, tell Conservative Canadians why you deserve to be there. 0.85

00:05:20.900 And when you go around and start expelling anyone who criticizes you, you're not exactly

00:05:28.620 sending the message of a leader in control of a party, a leader assured of his own leadership.

00:05:36.380 And I want to talk about why this is not going to be the end of this journey for a lot of

00:05:41.500 Conservative MPs in just a couple of moments here.

00:05:43.980 But first, I want to talk about Senator Denise Batters' response to this.

00:05:48.320 She said in a statement published yesterday,

00:05:50.240 I am and will always be a Conservative.

00:05:52.980 It is ironic that Aaron O'Toole is expelling me from our National Conservative Caucus for

00:05:57.200 asking him to adhere to the principles and policies our Conservative Party members have

00:06:01.440 approved.

00:06:02.220 She goes on about how the petition is simply about giving members a say in the leadership

00:06:06.740 and future direction of the party.

00:06:09.160 And then she argues that O'Toole cannot tolerate criticism.

00:06:13.660 She says she raised her concerns directly.

00:06:15.640 He didn't respond.

00:06:16.500 He didn't act.

00:06:17.160 And now his response is to kick her out.

00:06:20.980 And she points out that Senator Michael McDonald had made similar complaints, but did not get

00:06:27.340 kicked out of caucus.

00:06:28.320 And she wants to know why there is, in fact, a double standard there.

00:06:32.220 And I don't know the answer.

00:06:33.160 I mean, the reality is Michael McDonald made some comments, but I don't think launched a

00:06:37.180 campaign in the way Senator Batters did.

00:06:39.200 But nevertheless, there is a growing trend, I think we're going to see, of MPs and included

00:06:44.560 in that category right now are senators that are increasingly uncomfortable with this top-down

00:06:50.220 leader-directed process that we see in the Conservative Party.

00:06:54.060 And that other story I wanted to bring up here comes from the Canadian press.

00:06:58.480 O'Toole warns more expulsions in store for any MP who challenges his leadership.

00:07:04.120 So on Wednesday, he said about expelling Senator Batters that she made the decision for herself.

00:07:11.140 He said, I didn't want to make it.

00:07:12.500 She made it for herself.

00:07:14.320 He said people are allowing their frustrations and their personal agendas or issues on the

00:07:18.960 pandemic to interfere with our progress, and they are not part of the team.

00:07:24.560 So he says that anyone who's not putting the team in the country first will not be part

00:07:28.940 of his team.

00:07:29.600 So if you criticize Aaron O'Toole, you are no longer a team player.

00:07:36.300 If you criticize Aaron O'Toole, you're not putting the country's interests first.

00:07:40.960 That's what he's saying here.

00:07:41.980 You're not putting the country's interests first if you criticize Aaron O'Toole.

00:07:46.460 Anyone who's not putting the team and the country first will not be part of this team.

00:07:50.960 So the idea that being a conservative means accepting a permanent gag order on the leadership,

00:07:59.440 on things that members of the conservative party are not just morally allowed, but are

00:08:03.880 contractually allowed to have a say on.

00:08:06.500 There's a reason that there is a review process after an unsuccessful election.

00:08:10.860 There's a reason because it is accepted that conservative members have a right to question

00:08:16.640 and call out and even criticize their leader.

00:08:19.540 So if you're a, especially a senator, by the way, a senator who's not really been elected

00:08:25.820 under the Aaron O'Toole banner, she was appointed and whatever you think of the Senate process,

00:08:29.780 she doesn't owe anything to Aaron O'Toole, but he now decides that she is no longer welcome

00:08:35.100 in the conservative party, at least insofar sitting in caucus is concerned, because she

00:08:40.240 has said that the members deserve a say on Aaron O'Toole's leadership.

00:08:44.300 And you may know, I mean, I've been criticized of being anti-O'Toole.

00:08:48.100 I've been criticized of being an O'Toole shill, oftentimes people responding to the same show

00:08:52.380 because people tend to read into things and listen to whatever they want to hear.

00:08:56.180 But I will say I've been deliberately, very deliberately, I don't know if agnostic is the

00:09:01.660 right word, but non-committal on what I think should happen because I'm not a member of the

00:09:05.860 Conservative Party of Canada.

00:09:07.180 It's not my place to weigh in on these sorts of decisions.

00:09:10.460 But the roadmap that I have laid out is one that Aaron O'Toole is not following right now,

00:09:16.200 which is actually making a point of explaining and being held accountable to the people who do

00:09:21.860 feel alienated.

00:09:23.380 I've had conversations with a number of Conservatives since the election, just two months ago this weekend.

00:09:31.260 And people have been very frustrated.

00:09:33.680 He changed his mind on firearms, on CBC funding, on conscience rights, on social issues in general,

00:09:42.100 on caucus discipline versus free votes.

00:09:44.560 And all of these things have alienated different groups of carbon taxes, different groups of

00:09:50.560 Conservatives.

00:09:51.960 And in some cases, it may be a hill to die on.

00:09:54.080 In other cases, it might just be a minor inconvenience.

00:09:56.640 People that were prepared to overlook the carbon tax might not have been so kind when the budget

00:10:02.100 balance wasn't given a specific roadmap, for example.

00:10:06.240 But the whole point is, is that this is something that Conservatives,

00:10:09.800 Conservative members have to have a say on because if not, who else?

00:10:14.840 Do we want this decision to be made solely within caucus?

00:10:18.340 Caucus has the right to do something, but it's a lot easier to win over 118 colleagues in caucus

00:10:24.200 than to win over tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of members that you are ultimately

00:10:29.800 beholden to in the country.

00:10:32.300 And that's what's happening here.

00:10:33.880 So I would like to see Aaron O'Toole at least try.

00:10:37.000 I would like to see him try.

00:10:38.440 I'd like to see him explain what he thinks he got out of his strategy and how he thinks he can

00:10:44.060 turn that into victory.

00:10:45.260 It's not enough just to tell people, ooh, there could be an election around the corner.

00:10:49.060 And it's not enough to tell people we made gains.

00:10:51.380 Because you know who else made gains?

00:10:52.760 Andrew Scheer.

00:10:53.660 And you know who cared about those gains?

00:10:55.560 Absolutely no one.

00:10:57.540 Because close is only good in horseshoes and hand grenades.

00:11:00.480 I was raised with that bit of wisdom from my father, which has withstood the test of time.

00:11:04.580 Close is only good in horseshoes and hand grenades.

00:11:06.740 And politics is thankfully neither horseshoes nor hand grenades.

00:11:10.720 Although sometimes it feels a little bit like the latter.

00:11:13.440 Now listen, I don't know what's going to happen here.

00:11:15.880 I generally speaking avoid predictions.

00:11:17.940 There are a few variables.

00:11:19.060 And one of which is if O'Toole can keep this process entirely in the caucus realm.

00:11:25.120 Because I believe he has the support of most members of his caucus.

00:11:28.700 There are some that are probably on the fence but don't want to rock the boat.

00:11:32.040 And certainly don't want to risk running afoul of being able to stay in the caucus.

00:11:36.960 Especially with this admonition that I just shared a few moments ago.

00:11:40.900 That anyone who speaks up, anyone who is not putting the country first,

00:11:44.680 will no longer sit as a Conservative Member of Parliament.

00:11:49.280 And listen, there's already been a string of this.

00:11:51.540 The number of expulsions, disqualifications,

00:11:54.300 ejections from caucus has been more significant

00:11:56.720 in the last couple of years than it has been in,

00:11:59.680 I think, like a decade prior to that.

00:12:02.340 And I would also point out here

00:12:04.260 that it is possible to exist,

00:12:07.600 to coexist with critics in your own party.

00:12:10.580 Jason Kenney has had to do this.

00:12:11.880 Now, Jason Kenney, I think, is fending off a lot more criticism

00:12:14.900 from his own caucus than Aaron O'Toole is.

00:12:17.460 But there are a number of critics,

00:12:18.520 even those who have called for Jason Kenney's resignation,

00:12:21.480 like Lila here and Angela Pitt,

00:12:23.580 who are still sitting as UCP MLAs in Jason Kenney's caucus.

00:12:29.200 Now, do you take from that that Jason Kenney is a weak leader?

00:12:32.300 Do you take from it that he just doesn't want this

00:12:34.080 absolute exodus of MLAs,

00:12:36.260 in which if you get rid of one, you have to get rid of them all?

00:12:38.660 Or is he doing it because he realizes

00:12:40.560 that strong leadership is the ability to withstand criticism?

00:12:44.780 If I were Aaron O'Toole right now,

00:12:46.640 and I were wanting to stay on as leader,

00:12:49.680 I would say, you know what, bring it on.

00:12:51.640 The Conservative members deserve a say.

00:12:53.620 I'm confident I can make my pitch to them.

00:12:56.680 But he's not doing that.

00:12:59.680 He should be leading the charge

00:13:01.700 to have an early leadership review

00:13:04.000 because it completely neutralizes

00:13:06.320 all of those people saying he's trying to duck accountability.

00:13:08.820 The only thing he gains from delaying

00:13:11.340 is you get time to hopefully make it look like

00:13:14.880 an election is more imminent.

00:13:17.080 You also get time to hope that people's frustrations

00:13:19.720 are a bit more of a distant memory.

00:13:22.760 But this is going to be a very significant challenge

00:13:25.580 as we head forward for Aaron O'Toole

00:13:27.720 and for the Conservative movement as a whole.

00:13:31.020 Have to take a quick break here.

00:13:32.560 When we come back,

00:13:33.220 this is The Andrew Lawton Show here on True North.

00:13:35.240 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:13:43.160 Welcome back to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:13:45.440 One of my big pet peeves are bylaw enforcers.

00:13:48.500 Of course, this has been amplified

00:13:50.480 by the COVID-19 pandemic,

00:13:52.200 which has breathed new life

00:13:53.540 into the mandate of municipal bylaw enforcement offices.

00:13:57.640 Let's talk about Port Colborne, Ontario,

00:13:59.820 a community that has a very restrictive ban

00:14:03.780 on what you can say

00:14:06.060 in terms of a political statement

00:14:08.160 or expression of free speech,

00:14:09.740 even on your own property.

00:14:12.180 As the headline in The Port Colborne Leader says,

00:14:15.220 free speech or hate speech,

00:14:17.000 Port Colborne resident ordered to remove vulgar banner.

00:14:21.080 Now, normally we would blur this out,

00:14:23.360 but in this case,

00:14:23.880 I think the Maple Leaf is serving

00:14:25.400 as an official censor of sorts.

00:14:27.980 And as you can see,

00:14:29.260 the sign there is a resounding F Trudeau.

00:14:33.180 And if you look really, really closely,

00:14:34.980 there's another F Trudeau sticker on the front door.

00:14:38.060 Just in case you miss the big giant flag,

00:14:41.340 you are hit with the double whammy

00:14:43.260 when you look at the door

00:14:44.140 and realize that it's actually two F Trudeau signs

00:14:48.720 that you get on this house in Port Colborne.

00:14:52.340 And one of the things that you see here,

00:14:54.360 by the way, the article says it's a Comic Sans font.

00:14:57.160 And I consider myself a bit of a font savant.

00:14:59.940 And I do not believe that is at all Comic Sans.

00:15:02.760 But none of that, fake news, fake news.

00:15:04.420 It's not Comic Sans.

00:15:05.220 Anyway, but they try to do it in a very formal way here.

00:15:08.860 The banner, which reads F Trudeau in a Comic Sans font,

00:15:12.140 uses a Maple Leaf symbol

00:15:13.340 to replace a single letter in the profanity.

00:15:15.580 A small state, yeah, okay.

00:15:16.900 It's F Trudeau.

00:15:17.800 That's what they're saying here.

00:15:18.780 And I'm not endorsing the message,

00:15:20.760 but not at all in a million years

00:15:22.900 would I ever say this is hate speech.

00:15:24.840 This is the very epitome of free speech,

00:15:27.540 being able to be profane,

00:15:29.140 being able to criticize your political overlords.

00:15:32.260 Yet apparently a number of residents

00:15:34.240 were complaining to the newspaper in the city.

00:15:37.360 They were complaining to bylaw.

00:15:39.260 And the bylaw department has determined

00:15:41.600 that this is a violation

00:15:44.120 of the city's property standards bylaw 4299-135-02,

00:15:51.600 which says all homes must be free

00:15:53.760 of painted slogans, graffiti, and similar defacements.

00:15:57.900 So I don't know how a flag is a similar defacement

00:16:01.320 to a painted slogan or graffiti,

00:16:04.960 but the whole point is that they're trying to go

00:16:07.180 after your own expression on your own property.

00:16:10.700 Now, they might do the same thing

00:16:12.820 if you had a sign that said,

00:16:14.720 you know what, I hate broccoli or something.

00:16:17.940 Who knows?

00:16:18.700 I mean, they're using something

00:16:19.940 that deliberately covers all speech and all expression.

00:16:23.380 But the fact that this is at all viewed

00:16:25.400 in the same vein as hate speech,

00:16:28.020 when it is literally the most essential form

00:16:30.640 of free expression, which is political speech,

00:16:32.800 is a sad reminder of how far things have come.

00:16:35.480 And again, I'm not saying Justin Trudeau is behind this.

00:16:37.600 This is a bunch of busybodies on the Port Colborne bureaucracy.

00:16:41.720 But at the same time, this is why drawing a line

00:16:45.060 to separate between free speech and hate speech

00:16:47.400 is so futile, because it means different things

00:16:50.760 to different people.

00:16:52.040 So when the government in the last days

00:16:54.840 of the last sitting of parliament put forward Bill C-36,

00:16:58.520 which would recriminalize effectively online hate speech,

00:17:02.840 I don't buy the government's proclamations

00:17:05.080 that, oh, well, we're only after the really, really,

00:17:06.960 really bad speech, because to some people,

00:17:09.080 really, really bad speech is saying F Trudeau.

00:17:11.440 To other people saying, oh, you know what,

00:17:13.580 a biological female is the only one that can be a woman. 1.00

00:17:17.080 That could be hate speech.

00:17:18.740 So the idea is when you give people license

00:17:21.280 to go after hate speech,

00:17:23.360 all you're doing is giving license to censor

00:17:25.480 based on things they may hate,

00:17:28.420 based on expressions they may oppose.

00:17:31.040 And the reason that this is so essential to talk about

00:17:35.100 is because there is very much a trend against liberty,

00:17:38.560 against freedom of speech in Canadian society.

00:17:40.840 And stories like this, in a perverse way,

00:17:43.240 are valuable because they force people to realize that,

00:17:45.880 well, hey, maybe I don't want government busybodies

00:17:48.480 telling me what I can and can't say.

00:17:50.060 Well, then oppose Bill C-36 when it comes back,

00:17:52.920 which it will.

00:17:54.180 Speaking of liberty,

00:17:55.560 going to return with an in-depth discussion

00:17:57.700 with Jacques Boudreau, leader of the Libertarian Party of Canada,

00:18:00.960 in just a couple of moments' time.

00:18:02.520 This is The Andrew Lawton Show here on True North.

00:18:06.340 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:18:11.360 Welcome back to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:18:13.640 Well, obviously, the 2021 election is done,

00:18:16.360 but for most parties and political movers,

00:18:18.800 the fight for the next election,

00:18:20.480 whether that comes in 2023 or 2025,

00:18:23.580 whenever it is, is still underway.

00:18:25.800 And we always try to do things a little bit differently at True North

00:18:28.940 and spotlight some of the parties and leaders

00:18:30.980 who don't necessarily get attention from the mainstream media,

00:18:34.300 but whose perspectives are nonetheless very significant

00:18:37.140 and certainly part of the Canadian political fabric.

00:18:40.420 And I wanted to do exactly that this segment,

00:18:42.400 talk to the leader of the Libertarian Party of Canada,

00:18:45.280 Jacques Boudreau.

00:18:46.500 Now, Jacques is a relatively new leader to the party,

00:18:49.740 as we'll talk about in just a moment.

00:18:51.500 Tim Moen, I had on the show previously,

00:18:53.580 was the former leader.

00:18:54.940 But I should say right out of the gate,

00:18:57.500 Jacques and I have a bit of a history,

00:18:58.820 not a bad history,

00:18:59.660 but when I ran as a candidate in London West

00:19:02.020 for the Progressive Conservative Party of Méditero in 2018,

00:19:06.200 he was the Libertarian candidate in that riding.

00:19:10.120 And we both lost.

00:19:11.600 He's now moved on to leading a party,

00:19:13.280 and I've just run as far from politics as I can.

00:19:16.080 But it's great to talk to you again.

00:19:17.580 Jacques Boudreau, thanks very much for coming on today.

00:19:20.180 Thank you, Andrew.

00:19:21.040 It's great to see you again.

00:19:22.080 So how did you end up the leader?

00:19:25.120 Let's start there.

00:19:25.820 Why did you want that job,

00:19:27.180 and how did you get there?

00:19:29.140 So we had a convention in Edmonton

00:19:31.840 the weekend of August 14th and 15th.

00:19:34.820 In leading up to that,

00:19:36.400 the position of deputy leader was vacant,

00:19:39.680 and I had made up my mind that

00:19:41.920 I would be a good candidate for it,

00:19:45.660 if only because I'm bilingual.

00:19:49.000 I thought Tim did a great job,

00:19:51.140 but in order to get traction in French-speaking Canada,

00:19:54.300 I thought, well, that would be pretty good.

00:19:57.120 But then a few weeks before,

00:19:59.560 Tim announced that he had done his bit

00:20:03.160 and needed to move on.

00:20:06.320 And I thought, well, deputy leader, leader,

00:20:09.120 why not go for it?

00:20:12.480 I mean, I...

00:20:13.160 And of course, jumping right into the busy season,

00:20:16.520 heading into an election, of course, too.

00:20:18.380 Well, I don't know if it's a bad or good omen,

00:20:20.980 but I was elected on the 15th,

00:20:23.400 which is when the election was called.

00:20:25.980 So...

00:20:26.380 There we go.

00:20:27.420 Let me go back to the basics here in a lot of ways,

00:20:29.880 because I know for people that are involved in,

00:20:31.920 you know, politics

00:20:32.740 and have had even some background in political theory,

00:20:35.280 perhaps, the word libertarian takes on a meaning

00:20:38.120 that it might not have for the average Canadian.

00:20:40.780 How do you define what a libertarian is,

00:20:43.580 either in general

00:20:44.500 or just in a Canadian political context,

00:20:46.820 such as the Libertarian Party of Canada?

00:20:50.680 Well, as you know,

00:20:51.760 there are different hues or colours of libertarianism,

00:20:57.220 but to my mind,

00:20:59.140 a libertarian is anybody who abides

00:21:01.300 on a consistent basis to the non-aggression principle.

00:21:05.280 And for those who don't know it,

00:21:06.820 it's very, very simple.

00:21:08.460 It's that the initiation

00:21:10.340 or the threat of initiation of force

00:21:12.180 against the innocent is wrong.

00:21:14.140 And by innocent here,

00:21:15.520 again, because you need to define these things,

00:21:18.060 is anyone who does not engage in the,

00:21:22.140 what I like to refer to as the shall nots, right? 1.00

00:21:24.820 So if you don't engage in murder,

00:21:27.420 beating up, raping, stealing, 0.74

00:21:31.020 then you are innocent.

00:21:33.140 And it's, I would say from that perspective,

00:21:36.160 we are very at odds with most of the parties

00:21:39.120 who will regularly vote, for example,

00:21:44.900 for laws that would outlaw things

00:21:47.860 that they don't like.

00:21:50.180 But not liking something

00:21:51.720 is very, very different

00:21:53.140 from outlawing something

00:21:56.120 that is wrong,

00:21:59.040 in the sense that, you know,

00:22:00.660 if there's aggression,

00:22:01.640 of course, you want to outlaw it,

00:22:03.460 but you shouldn't outlaw things

00:22:05.740 that you simply disagree with.

00:22:07.740 And, you know,

00:22:08.780 I can think of two very good examples

00:22:11.200 of this in Quebec right now,

00:22:12.600 where people have learned nothing from history.

00:22:16.280 You know,

00:22:16.940 well, the very, very recent one

00:22:19.120 is all the heat

00:22:20.520 that the president of Air Canada

00:22:25.580 is taking

00:22:26.160 because he doesn't speak French.

00:22:29.600 Now, maybe you're offended by this.

00:22:32.200 Maybe you think it's poor marketing,

00:22:36.120 and we could argue that maybe those are,

00:22:38.520 but he's certainly not aggressing anybody

00:22:40.880 by not speaking French.

00:22:42.500 So people who are calling

00:22:44.000 for draconian measures

00:22:45.340 to compel him to do so

00:22:47.060 from a libertarian point of view

00:22:48.620 are completely wrong.

00:22:50.400 More egregious is Bill 21 in Quebec,

00:22:53.460 where, again,

00:22:55.260 if you wear a religious symbol on the job,

00:22:58.260 you are not aggressing anybody.

00:23:00.460 Now, if you don't like it,

00:23:02.400 from a libertarian point of view,

00:23:03.560 it would be, well, that's tough,

00:23:04.940 but you can't start at gunpoint

00:23:07.180 telling people

00:23:07.920 what they can or cannot do

00:23:10.540 simply because you don't like what they do.

00:23:12.520 So I would say it's a very marked difference

00:23:16.480 between us and the other parties

00:23:18.300 who, again, will engage

00:23:19.520 in this type of behavior

00:23:20.420 on a regular basis.

00:23:22.080 Because another thing

00:23:23.180 that is confused greatly

00:23:26.980 is, and François Legault

00:23:29.740 actually made that point.

00:23:31.080 He said, well, Bill 21 is okay

00:23:34.020 because the majority of Quebecers

00:23:35.620 approve of it,

00:23:36.500 and moreover,

00:23:37.340 it was passed democratically,

00:23:39.940 to which I say,

00:23:40.720 well, you are confusing

00:23:42.300 what is legal

00:23:43.020 with what is moral, right?

00:23:44.920 You've made it legal,

00:23:46.100 but it's still immoral.

00:23:47.800 And, you know,

00:23:48.440 there's all kinds of examples

00:23:49.480 of this throughout

00:23:50.400 the history of mankind.

00:23:52.280 I mean, apartheid was legal. 1.00

00:23:54.580 Segregation in the southern U.S. 0.51

00:23:56.080 was legal.

00:23:58.820 You know, Hitler came into power 0.97

00:24:00.520 through democratic means.

00:24:02.420 So there's all kinds of examples

00:24:04.300 where you can't confuse

00:24:05.600 morality with legality.

00:24:07.680 I think you touched on something

00:24:10.240 very important, though, Jacques,

00:24:11.520 and this is, I'd say,

00:24:12.640 one of my biggest frustrations

00:24:14.400 in Canadian politics right now,

00:24:16.720 and it's probably not

00:24:17.640 a distinctly Canadian phenomenon,

00:24:19.520 is that so many people

00:24:20.580 are unwilling to make

00:24:22.020 that distinction.

00:24:22.800 You see this especially

00:24:23.860 in the context of

00:24:25.540 so-called hate speech laws,

00:24:26.940 where people say, you know,

00:24:27.960 because I dislike that speech,

00:24:29.720 I deplore that speech,

00:24:31.040 it should therefore be illegal.

00:24:33.160 How do you break through that?

00:24:34.400 Because I think that

00:24:35.380 what everyone should do

00:24:36.520 is just do exactly

00:24:37.860 what you said,

00:24:38.480 just live their lives

00:24:39.700 as long as they're not

00:24:40.380 aggressing on others,

00:24:41.320 as long as they're not

00:24:42.020 infringing on others' liberties.

00:24:43.360 But so many people

00:24:44.440 want to equate those two

00:24:46.520 and link those two,

00:24:47.700 the legal and the moral.

00:24:49.820 Well, so first of all,

00:24:51.140 just to be crystal clear,

00:24:52.680 the Libertarian Party of Canada

00:24:54.220 is certainly not opposed

00:24:55.300 to the criminal aspect

00:24:57.420 of what, you know,

00:24:58.560 the criminal laws

00:24:59.300 that we have

00:25:00.240 with regard to hate speech.

00:25:01.260 I mean, in terms of

00:25:02.460 aggressing people,

00:25:03.660 we don't condone

00:25:05.280 or favor anybody

00:25:06.700 who would, you know,

00:25:10.420 sort of bring up hate

00:25:12.200 against other people

00:25:13.140 or encourage violence

00:25:14.360 against certain groups.

00:25:15.480 So we're fine with it.

00:25:16.840 Well, if I may, though, Jacques,

00:25:18.200 those are very different things.

00:25:19.740 Encouraging violence,

00:25:20.680 you can argue that's a threat

00:25:22.380 that infringes on other liberties.

00:25:24.300 Where do you draw that line, though?

00:25:25.800 Because bringing up hate,

00:25:26.920 that's an emotion.

00:25:27.820 And we have in Canada

00:25:29.080 a very significant debate

00:25:30.900 about where that line is drawn.

00:25:32.420 So where would you draw it?

00:25:33.580 Yeah, sorry, I misspoke.

00:25:35.000 I mean, I would say

00:25:35.700 anybody who incite violence

00:25:37.200 against a group out of hate.

00:25:39.120 Good, good.

00:25:39.760 No, I mean,

00:25:41.920 part of the battle

00:25:43.420 to answer your question

00:25:44.240 is, of course,

00:25:44.820 is that we've had

00:25:45.660 legal judgments

00:25:47.700 where stating facts

00:25:51.080 that are verifiable

00:25:52.000 could constitute hate speech.

00:25:54.500 I mean, that was

00:25:55.140 a terrible, terrible judgment.

00:25:56.580 I mean, I'm still trying

00:25:58.620 to wrap my head

00:25:59.780 around how one

00:26:00.980 could come to that.

00:26:03.580 I mean, to address your point,

00:26:04.580 I would say that

00:26:05.380 I would point to people

00:26:07.180 that at some point

00:26:08.360 they will be on the receiving end

00:26:10.700 of these types of laws.

00:26:12.920 Like one day

00:26:13.560 they will express an opinion.

00:26:15.380 And we see this

00:26:16.080 on the left all the time.

00:26:17.320 I mean,

00:26:17.940 I think it was on your show

00:26:19.240 last week,

00:26:19.920 possibly where,

00:26:21.760 or maybe it was Candace,

00:26:23.660 but talking about

00:26:25.320 how Margaret Atwood

00:26:28.260 suddenly people turned on her

00:26:33.420 because she expressed

00:26:34.180 an opinion

00:26:34.660 that people didn't like.

00:26:36.700 So one way

00:26:38.280 that we tried

00:26:38.740 to get through to people

00:26:39.640 is, you know,

00:26:40.200 you just wait.

00:26:41.020 At some point

00:26:41.620 you will express an opinion

00:26:42.660 that people will not like.

00:26:44.000 And again,

00:26:44.320 it's not because

00:26:44.740 they don't like it

00:26:45.520 that it constitutes hate speech.

00:26:47.000 and, you know,

00:26:49.720 could try to point

00:26:50.380 to past examples,

00:26:51.760 you know,

00:26:52.220 like Margaret Atwood

00:26:53.360 or other people.

00:26:55.780 We often hear

00:26:56.860 from conservative politicians

00:26:58.340 in particular,

00:26:59.500 the importance

00:27:00.000 of small government,

00:27:01.220 limited government.

00:27:02.220 And now obviously

00:27:02.880 the Libertarian Party

00:27:04.060 is going a lot farther

00:27:05.980 in terms of

00:27:07.020 how much to shrink government.

00:27:08.520 But I will ask you,

00:27:09.660 do you feel

00:27:10.300 that the conservatives

00:27:11.660 are better than the liberals

00:27:13.260 even in a small way

00:27:14.600 on the idea of liberty?

00:27:16.060 Or is your view

00:27:16.880 that they're entirely

00:27:17.960 just two sides

00:27:18.840 of the same coin?

00:27:20.820 I find that conservatism

00:27:22.660 in Canada

00:27:23.320 is very much like

00:27:25.400 the Republican Party

00:27:27.200 in the U.S.

00:27:29.040 in that

00:27:29.620 when they are not in power,

00:27:32.100 they speak

00:27:32.940 a fairly good game.

00:27:34.600 I mean,

00:27:34.840 certainly not as good

00:27:35.800 as I would like it to be.

00:27:37.160 But then you get into power

00:27:38.400 and there's a

00:27:39.860 very serious disconnect

00:27:41.220 between what they argued

00:27:42.680 while in the opposition

00:27:44.120 and what they

00:27:45.220 they do

00:27:46.280 once they're in power.

00:27:47.900 So my answer is

00:27:49.600 the rhetoric

00:27:50.680 is certainly

00:27:52.260 better than the liberals.

00:27:54.280 Once they get into power,

00:27:55.320 I'm not sure.

00:27:57.040 How do you rank

00:27:58.040 the People's Party

00:27:58.880 of Canada?

00:27:59.500 Because this is a party

00:28:00.380 that in the last election

00:28:02.040 in particular

00:28:02.620 was, I think,

00:28:03.440 taking what I would argue

00:28:04.900 are fairly libertarian

00:28:06.040 positions on

00:28:07.120 vaccine mandates,

00:28:08.640 vaccine passports.

00:28:09.620 I know Maxime Bernier

00:28:10.560 has in the past

00:28:11.520 been called,

00:28:12.440 I don't know

00:28:12.780 if he's called himself it,

00:28:13.800 but he's been called

00:28:14.400 by other people

00:28:15.040 more of a libertarian.

00:28:16.480 Has this party

00:28:17.640 done a lot

00:28:18.580 of the work

00:28:19.080 that you would like

00:28:19.760 to see done

00:28:20.220 in Canadian politics

00:28:21.080 on these issues?

00:28:23.620 Yes.

00:28:24.240 I mean,

00:28:24.660 they,

00:28:25.980 well,

00:28:26.120 Maxime does not want

00:28:27.180 to be referred to

00:28:28.120 as a libertarian.

00:28:28.920 I think he's made

00:28:29.460 that clear.

00:28:31.100 I mean,

00:28:32.500 when he quit

00:28:33.400 the Conservatives,

00:28:34.260 I mean,

00:28:34.440 quite frankly,

00:28:34.820 we had some talks

00:28:35.780 with him

00:28:36.640 and I mean,

00:28:37.480 it didn't go anywhere

00:28:38.320 in part because

00:28:39.040 I think he,

00:28:40.100 again,

00:28:40.340 he does not want

00:28:41.320 to be a libertarian,

00:28:42.120 but they certainly

00:28:42.640 have many elements

00:28:45.740 of their platform

00:28:46.480 are identical to ours.

00:28:48.500 In fact,

00:28:49.140 we think sometimes

00:28:49.880 he's taken them,

00:28:52.220 which is fine.

00:28:52.760 I mean,

00:28:53.080 we're about ideas,

00:28:54.500 not necessarily

00:28:55.180 being in power,

00:28:56.360 but I would simply say

00:28:58.100 I don't think

00:28:58.540 they go far enough,

00:28:59.780 but I certainly,

00:29:00.380 like when they talk

00:29:01.880 about doing away

00:29:03.300 with supply management,

00:29:04.640 you know,

00:29:04.780 we would certainly

00:29:05.380 be in favor

00:29:07.140 of that,

00:29:07.720 you know,

00:29:07.960 smaller government,

00:29:08.940 but I think

00:29:11.220 we'd still have

00:29:11.820 a very large

00:29:12.940 federal government

00:29:14.040 under a PPC government.

00:29:17.840 What is it

00:29:18.560 that you would like

00:29:19.440 to see if you were

00:29:20.420 the prime minister

00:29:21.100 and I know obviously

00:29:22.020 you're not talking

00:29:23.160 about expecting that,

00:29:24.600 you have very

00:29:25.100 realistic expectations

00:29:26.200 about being a party

00:29:27.480 of ideas,

00:29:28.100 but what would be

00:29:28.800 the top three things

00:29:29.900 that you think

00:29:30.320 would be feasible

00:29:31.140 within the Canadian

00:29:32.580 political climate

00:29:33.500 that would move things

00:29:34.360 to where you want

00:29:35.020 them to be?

00:29:37.140 Well,

00:29:38.420 I'm an actuary

00:29:40.220 by background,

00:29:42.020 so,

00:29:42.600 you know,

00:29:43.780 the fiscal side

00:29:44.620 of things,

00:29:45.160 particularly

00:29:45.600 what we refer to

00:29:48.140 as unfunded liabilities

00:29:49.480 is a massive,

00:29:51.280 massive problem,

00:29:52.100 which,

00:29:52.760 and I find this

00:29:53.500 bewildering,

00:29:54.440 but nobody talks

00:29:55.320 about this.

00:29:56.320 I have brought it up

00:29:57.440 on the campaign trail

00:29:58.460 and all I get

00:30:00.100 is people's eyes

00:30:01.300 glazing over,

00:30:02.200 but,

00:30:03.060 you know,

00:30:03.380 it amounts to

00:30:04.020 $2.7 trillion

00:30:05.120 in this country

00:30:06.240 and there are

00:30:07.160 promises made

00:30:07.840 to people

00:30:08.340 that will be

00:30:09.300 very,

00:30:09.720 very difficult

00:30:10.220 to keep.

00:30:13.160 So,

00:30:13.640 I certainly,

00:30:14.840 and this is not even,

00:30:16.700 strictly speaking,

00:30:17.500 libertarian,

00:30:18.240 but it needs

00:30:19.660 to be addressed.

00:30:20.560 I mean,

00:30:20.960 from a libertarian

00:30:21.840 point of view,

00:30:22.320 one of the things

00:30:22.860 that absolutely

00:30:24.280 needs to be done

00:30:25.120 is to allow

00:30:25.860 young people

00:30:26.540 to opt out

00:30:27.800 of things

00:30:28.460 like the CPP

00:30:29.180 because the rate

00:30:30.860 of return,

00:30:31.300 the implied rate

00:30:31.900 of return

00:30:32.260 on their contributions

00:30:33.100 is abysmal

00:30:34.280 and I can show

00:30:36.080 you the numbers

00:30:36.660 at some point,

00:30:37.480 but that needs

00:30:39.120 to be addressed.

00:30:39.860 I mean,

00:30:40.020 we cannot continue

00:30:40.920 to kick the can

00:30:41.860 down the road,

00:30:42.520 which is what we do

00:30:43.360 and at some point,

00:30:45.880 like Medicare,

00:30:47.240 it's included in that.

00:30:49.960 You know,

00:30:50.340 one of my colleagues

00:30:51.080 at the Canadian

00:30:51.940 Institute of Actuaries

00:30:53.120 in 2013

00:30:53.940 projected that 25 years

00:30:56.600 from that date,

00:30:59.320 close to 100%

00:31:00.340 of provincial taxes

00:31:03.300 would need to go

00:31:04.420 to pay for health care.

00:31:05.940 So if you're

00:31:06.580 a big government person,

00:31:07.880 that leaves no money

00:31:09.500 to pay for education,

00:31:10.660 leaves no money

00:31:11.180 to pay for roads

00:31:12.000 and all the things

00:31:13.120 that people want.

00:31:14.100 That needs to be addressed

00:31:15.180 and I see no plan

00:31:17.580 whatsoever

00:31:18.120 on the part of government

00:31:19.420 to address that.

00:31:21.460 Yeah,

00:31:21.900 very,

00:31:22.320 very well said.

00:31:23.360 Jacques Boudreau,

00:31:24.040 leader of the

00:31:24.720 Libertarian Party of Canada,

00:31:26.100 will have to have you

00:31:26.720 back on the show

00:31:27.300 and perhaps do

00:31:28.100 a deeper dive

00:31:28.940 into the pension question

00:31:30.900 because I think

00:31:31.460 it's a very important one.

00:31:32.700 Thanks very much

00:31:33.240 for coming on, Jacques.

00:31:34.460 All right,

00:31:34.900 thank you.

00:31:35.900 That was Jacques Boudreau,

00:31:37.480 leader of the

00:31:38.160 Libertarian Party of Canada

00:31:39.540 and my one-time

00:31:40.860 political rival

00:31:42.080 in London West

00:31:43.240 circa 2018.

00:31:44.200 Not circa 2018,

00:31:45.140 it was literally in 2018.

00:31:46.520 Anyway,

00:31:47.240 this is the problem

00:31:47.780 with Latin.

00:31:48.660 In any case,

00:31:49.780 we've got to end things there.

00:31:51.220 My thanks to Jacques

00:31:52.520 and to you all

00:31:53.060 for tuning in

00:31:53.660 to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:31:54.980 We'll be back tomorrow

00:31:56.060 with a special edition

00:31:57.480 of the program,

00:31:58.140 a deep dive

00:31:58.660 into the inflation crisis

00:32:00.500 afflicting this country.

00:32:02.340 What is the problem?

00:32:03.400 Where is it coming from?

00:32:04.340 And what do we do about it?

00:32:05.800 And then back to

00:32:06.820 regular full-strength edition

00:32:08.160 of Canada's

00:32:09.140 Most Irreverent Talk Show

00:32:10.100 next week.

00:32:10.840 Thanks to you all.

00:32:11.460 We'll talk to you soon.

00:32:12.280 Thank you.

00:32:12.800 God bless and good day.

00:32:14.220 Thanks for listening

00:32:14.960 to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:32:16.160 Support the program

00:32:17.240 by donating to True North

00:32:18.460 at www.tnc.news.

00:32:26.060 www.tnc.news.com

Juno News - November 18, 2021

Expelling critics from caucus isn't leadership

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