Juno News - November 18, 2021


Expelling critics from caucus isn't leadership


Episode Stats

Length

32 minutes

Words per Minute

173.76181

Word Count

5,645

Sentence Count

310

Misogynist Sentences

4

Hate Speech Sentences

6


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.
00:00:06.660 This is the Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.
00:00:12.860 Coming up, Aaron O'Toole cracks the whip to quell dissent.
00:00:16.140 Is it hate speech to fly an F. Trudeau flag?
00:00:19.060 And a conversation with Libertarian Party leader Jacques Boudreau.
00:00:23.880 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.
00:00:30.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.
00:00:33.060 This is the Andrew Lawton Show on True North, Thursday, November 18th, 2021.
00:00:38.760 It is my pleasure, nay, it is my privilege to have you aboard the program today.
00:00:43.600 We're going to be talking about Libertarian politics, free speech,
00:00:46.900 and of course the fight over Aaron O'Toole's leadership.
00:00:50.880 I know it sounds a little bit familiar, right?
00:00:52.700 This is what we talked about on the Tuesday show.
00:00:55.220 We even had Conservative Senator Denise Batters on the program,
00:00:58.720 except by the time the show aired, she was no longer Conservative Senator Denise Batters.
00:01:05.000 She was a Senator, she was a small-c Conservative,
00:01:07.460 but she was no longer a big-c Conservative caucus member,
00:01:11.620 having been summarily expelled from the Conservative Party caucus by Aaron O'Toole
00:01:16.280 because she decided to challenge Aaron O'Toole's leadership of the Conservatives.
00:01:22.060 Here's the timeline.
00:01:24.340 On Monday, Denise Batters releases a petition, says Aaron O'Toole has flip-flopped on policies,
00:01:29.220 he's thrown the party under the bus, he's not trusted by Canadians,
00:01:32.860 he's not poised to win an election when that time comes,
00:01:36.140 so Conservative members should have a say over his leadership.
00:01:39.160 That was her view.
00:01:40.360 On Tuesday, she came on the show.
00:01:42.340 We had a great chat.
00:01:43.320 She restated that.
00:01:44.480 She said she could be wrong, but she thinks the members need to have a say.
00:01:48.640 And you know what?
00:01:49.560 We pre-record things, of course, because it is a podcast and you get better quality
00:01:53.320 if you've been able to do that.
00:01:54.960 The challenge is, every now and then, by the time you hit that publish button,
00:01:58.740 something has changed that upends what you were talking about on the show.
00:02:03.060 And in this case, it was almost exactly at that moment that we published
00:02:07.700 that Aaron O'Toole had apparently announced that he had kicked her out of caucus.
00:02:12.380 Denise Batters said it was in a voicemail.
00:02:14.900 She even took a screenshot of the no-caller ID phone number that had,
00:02:19.900 well, I guess absence of a phone number, that had tried to reach out to her.
00:02:23.240 And it was Aaron O'Toole telling her in a voicemail she was no longer in the Conservative caucus.
00:02:28.640 Now, Aaron O'Toole's brief statement here says he will not tolerate an individual discrediting
00:02:35.020 and showing a clear lack of respect towards the efforts of the entire Conservative caucus
00:02:40.040 who are holding the corrupt and disastrous Trudeau government to account.
00:02:43.440 Just eight weeks ago, Canadians elected Conservatives to hold Justin Trudeau accountable
00:02:48.000 for his economic mismanagement and fight the cost of living crisis,
00:02:52.360 skyrocketing inflation, and the supply chain issues that are crippling businesses.
00:02:56.620 That is our focus as a team, unquote.
00:02:59.880 There are a couple of things that I want to point out here.
00:03:02.900 Nowhere in this statement does he say what's actually happened,
00:03:06.260 which is that she has taken aim at him.
00:03:09.120 He says she's discredited and disrespected the entire Conservative caucus.
00:03:13.820 You know, I spoke with Denise for, I think it was, what, maybe 15 minutes or so,
00:03:17.080 and I didn't hear anything in there that was disrespectful to the caucus.
00:03:20.520 Of course, Michelle Rempel-Garner had said that what Senator Batters was doing
00:03:24.620 was distracting people from the work that Conservative MPs were doing.
00:03:28.680 But that's a little bit of a convoluted path to she's taking a flamethrower to the party itself.
00:03:35.660 But I want to jump in on this line here because I had to kind of roll my eyes at it,
00:03:40.260 but it's very important to understand this honestly.
00:03:43.560 Aaron O'Toole's statement says,
00:03:45.520 eight weeks ago, Canadians elected Conservatives to hold Justin Trudeau accountable.
00:03:51.480 Canadians did not elect Conservatives at all to do anything eight weeks ago.
00:03:55.820 That's the whole point.
00:03:56.680 That's why we're having discussions about what went wrong.
00:03:59.560 That's why the Conservative Party has launched a review of the election.
00:04:03.420 That's why Aaron O'Toole is facing a call from inside the House to resign in some cases.
00:04:09.400 Canadians did not elect the Conservatives.
00:04:11.340 You don't get elected to be the opposition.
00:04:13.460 You end up in opposition when you lose.
00:04:16.440 But the Conservatives are still trying to spin everything that happened on September,
00:04:20.040 what was it, September 20th, as a victory.
00:04:22.080 They still don't accept or even concede that they lost.
00:04:27.820 They're trying to say everything's fine, everything's hunky-dory.
00:04:30.940 No, no, no.
00:04:31.320 Canadians elected us to hold Justin Trudeau to account.
00:04:33.680 No, what that actually means is that Canadians elected Justin Trudeau.
00:04:37.380 So let's at least have an honest discussion about what happened so that you can have an
00:04:43.840 honest discussion about what comes next.
00:04:45.820 And the reason is the primary defense of Aaron O'Toole right now, the primary defense of his
00:04:51.040 leadership is that he was just, he was just almost there.
00:04:53.500 It was so close.
00:04:54.420 He was just like a stone's throw away from victory.
00:04:56.660 He could see it.
00:04:57.460 He could smell it.
00:04:58.160 He could taste it.
00:04:58.900 It was almost there.
00:04:59.880 And it's going to be there next time.
00:05:01.980 Now, that may well be true.
00:05:04.240 But I maintain what I said on Tuesday, that Aaron O'Toole needs to do what he has not done
00:05:09.080 yet, which is actually sell and defend his leadership.
00:05:12.240 Apart from, well, we almost won and there could be an election within 18 months.
00:05:16.580 Tell Canadians, tell Conservative Canadians why you deserve to be there.
00:05:20.900 And when you go around and start expelling anyone who criticizes you, you're not exactly
00:05:28.620 sending the message of a leader in control of a party, a leader assured of his own leadership.
00:05:36.380 And I want to talk about why this is not going to be the end of this journey for a lot of
00:05:41.500 Conservative MPs in just a couple of moments here.
00:05:43.980 But first, I want to talk about Senator Denise Batters' response to this.
00:05:48.320 She said in a statement published yesterday,
00:05:50.240 I am and will always be a Conservative.
00:05:52.980 It is ironic that Aaron O'Toole is expelling me from our National Conservative Caucus for
00:05:57.200 asking him to adhere to the principles and policies our Conservative Party members have
00:06:01.440 approved.
00:06:02.220 She goes on about how the petition is simply about giving members a say in the leadership
00:06:06.740 and future direction of the party.
00:06:09.160 And then she argues that O'Toole cannot tolerate criticism.
00:06:13.660 She says she raised her concerns directly.
00:06:15.640 He didn't respond.
00:06:16.500 He didn't act.
00:06:17.160 And now his response is to kick her out.
00:06:20.980 And she points out that Senator Michael McDonald had made similar complaints, but did not get
00:06:27.340 kicked out of caucus.
00:06:28.320 And she wants to know why there is, in fact, a double standard there.
00:06:32.220 And I don't know the answer.
00:06:33.160 I mean, the reality is Michael McDonald made some comments, but I don't think launched a
00:06:37.180 campaign in the way Senator Batters did.
00:06:39.200 But nevertheless, there is a growing trend, I think we're going to see, of MPs and included
00:06:44.560 in that category right now are senators that are increasingly uncomfortable with this top-down
00:06:50.220 leader-directed process that we see in the Conservative Party.
00:06:54.060 And that other story I wanted to bring up here comes from the Canadian press.
00:06:58.480 O'Toole warns more expulsions in store for any MP who challenges his leadership.
00:07:04.120 So on Wednesday, he said about expelling Senator Batters that she made the decision for herself.
00:07:11.140 He said, I didn't want to make it.
00:07:12.500 She made it for herself.
00:07:14.320 He said people are allowing their frustrations and their personal agendas or issues on the
00:07:18.960 pandemic to interfere with our progress, and they are not part of the team.
00:07:24.560 So he says that anyone who's not putting the team in the country first will not be part
00:07:28.940 of his team.
00:07:29.600 So if you criticize Aaron O'Toole, you are no longer a team player.
00:07:36.300 If you criticize Aaron O'Toole, you're not putting the country's interests first.
00:07:40.960 That's what he's saying here.
00:07:41.980 You're not putting the country's interests first if you criticize Aaron O'Toole.
00:07:46.460 Anyone who's not putting the team and the country first will not be part of this team.
00:07:50.960 So the idea that being a conservative means accepting a permanent gag order on the leadership,
00:07:59.440 on things that members of the conservative party are not just morally allowed, but are
00:08:03.880 contractually allowed to have a say on.
00:08:06.500 There's a reason that there is a review process after an unsuccessful election.
00:08:10.860 There's a reason because it is accepted that conservative members have a right to question
00:08:16.640 and call out and even criticize their leader.
00:08:19.540 So if you're a, especially a senator, by the way, a senator who's not really been elected
00:08:25.820 under the Aaron O'Toole banner, she was appointed and whatever you think of the Senate process,
00:08:29.780 she doesn't owe anything to Aaron O'Toole, but he now decides that she is no longer welcome
00:08:35.100 in the conservative party, at least insofar sitting in caucus is concerned, because she
00:08:40.240 has said that the members deserve a say on Aaron O'Toole's leadership.
00:08:44.300 And you may know, I mean, I've been criticized of being anti-O'Toole.
00:08:48.100 I've been criticized of being an O'Toole shill, oftentimes people responding to the same show
00:08:52.380 because people tend to read into things and listen to whatever they want to hear.
00:08:56.180 But I will say I've been deliberately, very deliberately, I don't know if agnostic is the
00:09:01.660 right word, but non-committal on what I think should happen because I'm not a member of the
00:09:05.860 Conservative Party of Canada.
00:09:07.180 It's not my place to weigh in on these sorts of decisions.
00:09:10.460 But the roadmap that I have laid out is one that Aaron O'Toole is not following right now,
00:09:16.200 which is actually making a point of explaining and being held accountable to the people who do
00:09:21.860 feel alienated.
00:09:23.380 I've had conversations with a number of Conservatives since the election, just two months ago this weekend.
00:09:31.260 And people have been very frustrated.
00:09:33.680 He changed his mind on firearms, on CBC funding, on conscience rights, on social issues in general,
00:09:42.100 on caucus discipline versus free votes.
00:09:44.560 And all of these things have alienated different groups of carbon taxes, different groups of
00:09:50.560 Conservatives.
00:09:51.960 And in some cases, it may be a hill to die on.
00:09:54.080 In other cases, it might just be a minor inconvenience.
00:09:56.640 People that were prepared to overlook the carbon tax might not have been so kind when the budget
00:10:02.100 balance wasn't given a specific roadmap, for example.
00:10:06.240 But the whole point is, is that this is something that Conservatives,
00:10:09.800 Conservative members have to have a say on because if not, who else?
00:10:14.840 Do we want this decision to be made solely within caucus?
00:10:18.340 Caucus has the right to do something, but it's a lot easier to win over 118 colleagues in caucus
00:10:24.200 than to win over tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of members that you are ultimately
00:10:29.800 beholden to in the country.
00:10:32.300 And that's what's happening here.
00:10:33.880 So I would like to see Aaron O'Toole at least try.
00:10:37.000 I would like to see him try.
00:10:38.440 I'd like to see him explain what he thinks he got out of his strategy and how he thinks he can
00:10:44.060 turn that into victory.
00:10:45.260 It's not enough just to tell people, ooh, there could be an election around the corner.
00:10:49.060 And it's not enough to tell people we made gains.
00:10:51.380 Because you know who else made gains?
00:10:52.760 Andrew Scheer.
00:10:53.660 And you know who cared about those gains?
00:10:55.560 Absolutely no one.
00:10:57.540 Because close is only good in horseshoes and hand grenades.
00:11:00.480 I was raised with that bit of wisdom from my father, which has withstood the test of time.
00:11:04.580 Close is only good in horseshoes and hand grenades.
00:11:06.740 And politics is thankfully neither horseshoes nor hand grenades.
00:11:10.720 Although sometimes it feels a little bit like the latter.
00:11:13.440 Now listen, I don't know what's going to happen here.
00:11:15.880 I generally speaking avoid predictions.
00:11:17.940 There are a few variables.
00:11:19.060 And one of which is if O'Toole can keep this process entirely in the caucus realm.
00:11:25.120 Because I believe he has the support of most members of his caucus.
00:11:28.700 There are some that are probably on the fence but don't want to rock the boat.
00:11:32.040 And certainly don't want to risk running afoul of being able to stay in the caucus.
00:11:36.960 Especially with this admonition that I just shared a few moments ago.
00:11:40.900 That anyone who speaks up, anyone who is not putting the country first,
00:11:44.680 will no longer sit as a Conservative Member of Parliament.
00:11:49.280 And listen, there's already been a string of this.
00:11:51.540 The number of expulsions, disqualifications,
00:11:54.300 ejections from caucus has been more significant
00:11:56.720 in the last couple of years than it has been in,
00:11:59.680 I think, like a decade prior to that.
00:12:02.340 And I would also point out here
00:12:04.260 that it is possible to exist,
00:12:07.600 to coexist with critics in your own party.
00:12:10.580 Jason Kenney has had to do this.
00:12:11.880 Now, Jason Kenney, I think, is fending off a lot more criticism
00:12:14.900 from his own caucus than Aaron O'Toole is.
00:12:17.460 But there are a number of critics,
00:12:18.520 even those who have called for Jason Kenney's resignation,
00:12:21.480 like Lila here and Angela Pitt,
00:12:23.580 who are still sitting as UCP MLAs in Jason Kenney's caucus.
00:12:29.200 Now, do you take from that that Jason Kenney is a weak leader?
00:12:32.300 Do you take from it that he just doesn't want this
00:12:34.080 absolute exodus of MLAs,
00:12:36.260 in which if you get rid of one, you have to get rid of them all?
00:12:38.660 Or is he doing it because he realizes
00:12:40.560 that strong leadership is the ability to withstand criticism?
00:12:44.780 If I were Aaron O'Toole right now,
00:12:46.640 and I were wanting to stay on as leader,
00:12:49.680 I would say, you know what, bring it on.
00:12:51.640 The Conservative members deserve a say.
00:12:53.620 I'm confident I can make my pitch to them.
00:12:56.680 But he's not doing that.
00:12:59.680 He should be leading the charge
00:13:01.700 to have an early leadership review
00:13:04.000 because it completely neutralizes
00:13:06.320 all of those people saying he's trying to duck accountability.
00:13:08.820 The only thing he gains from delaying
00:13:11.340 is you get time to hopefully make it look like
00:13:14.880 an election is more imminent.
00:13:17.080 You also get time to hope that people's frustrations
00:13:19.720 are a bit more of a distant memory.
00:13:22.760 But this is going to be a very significant challenge
00:13:25.580 as we head forward for Aaron O'Toole
00:13:27.720 and for the Conservative movement as a whole.
00:13:31.020 Have to take a quick break here.
00:13:32.560 When we come back,
00:13:33.220 this is The Andrew Lawton Show here on True North.
00:13:35.240 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:13:43.160 Welcome back to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:13:45.440 One of my big pet peeves are bylaw enforcers.
00:13:48.500 Of course, this has been amplified
00:13:50.480 by the COVID-19 pandemic,
00:13:52.200 which has breathed new life
00:13:53.540 into the mandate of municipal bylaw enforcement offices.
00:13:57.640 Let's talk about Port Colborne, Ontario,
00:13:59.820 a community that has a very restrictive ban
00:14:03.780 on what you can say
00:14:06.060 in terms of a political statement
00:14:08.160 or expression of free speech,
00:14:09.740 even on your own property.
00:14:12.180 As the headline in The Port Colborne Leader says,
00:14:15.220 free speech or hate speech,
00:14:17.000 Port Colborne resident ordered to remove vulgar banner.
00:14:21.080 Now, normally we would blur this out,
00:14:23.360 but in this case,
00:14:23.880 I think the Maple Leaf is serving
00:14:25.400 as an official censor of sorts.
00:14:27.980 And as you can see,
00:14:29.260 the sign there is a resounding F Trudeau.
00:14:33.180 And if you look really, really closely,
00:14:34.980 there's another F Trudeau sticker on the front door.
00:14:38.060 Just in case you miss the big giant flag,
00:14:41.340 you are hit with the double whammy
00:14:43.260 when you look at the door
00:14:44.140 and realize that it's actually two F Trudeau signs
00:14:48.720 that you get on this house in Port Colborne.
00:14:52.340 And one of the things that you see here,
00:14:54.360 by the way, the article says it's a Comic Sans font.
00:14:57.160 And I consider myself a bit of a font savant.
00:14:59.940 And I do not believe that is at all Comic Sans.
00:15:02.760 But none of that, fake news, fake news.
00:15:04.420 It's not Comic Sans.
00:15:05.220 Anyway, but they try to do it in a very formal way here.
00:15:08.860 The banner, which reads F Trudeau in a Comic Sans font,
00:15:12.140 uses a Maple Leaf symbol
00:15:13.340 to replace a single letter in the profanity.
00:15:15.580 A small state, yeah, okay.
00:15:16.900 It's F Trudeau.
00:15:17.800 That's what they're saying here.
00:15:18.780 And I'm not endorsing the message,
00:15:20.760 but not at all in a million years
00:15:22.900 would I ever say this is hate speech.
00:15:24.840 This is the very epitome of free speech,
00:15:27.540 being able to be profane,
00:15:29.140 being able to criticize your political overlords.
00:15:32.260 Yet apparently a number of residents
00:15:34.240 were complaining to the newspaper in the city.
00:15:37.360 They were complaining to bylaw.
00:15:39.260 And the bylaw department has determined
00:15:41.600 that this is a violation
00:15:44.120 of the city's property standards bylaw 4299-135-02,
00:15:51.600 which says all homes must be free
00:15:53.760 of painted slogans, graffiti, and similar defacements.
00:15:57.900 So I don't know how a flag is a similar defacement
00:16:01.320 to a painted slogan or graffiti,
00:16:04.960 but the whole point is that they're trying to go
00:16:07.180 after your own expression on your own property.
00:16:10.700 Now, they might do the same thing
00:16:12.820 if you had a sign that said,
00:16:14.720 you know what, I hate broccoli or something.
00:16:17.940 Who knows?
00:16:18.700 I mean, they're using something
00:16:19.940 that deliberately covers all speech and all expression.
00:16:23.380 But the fact that this is at all viewed
00:16:25.400 in the same vein as hate speech,
00:16:28.020 when it is literally the most essential form
00:16:30.640 of free expression, which is political speech,
00:16:32.800 is a sad reminder of how far things have come.
00:16:35.480 And again, I'm not saying Justin Trudeau is behind this.
00:16:37.600 This is a bunch of busybodies on the Port Colborne bureaucracy.
00:16:41.720 But at the same time, this is why drawing a line
00:16:45.060 to separate between free speech and hate speech
00:16:47.400 is so futile, because it means different things
00:16:50.760 to different people.
00:16:52.040 So when the government in the last days
00:16:54.840 of the last sitting of parliament put forward Bill C-36,
00:16:58.520 which would recriminalize effectively online hate speech,
00:17:02.840 I don't buy the government's proclamations
00:17:05.080 that, oh, well, we're only after the really, really,
00:17:06.960 really bad speech, because to some people,
00:17:09.080 really, really bad speech is saying F Trudeau.
00:17:11.440 To other people saying, oh, you know what,
00:17:13.580 a biological female is the only one that can be a woman.
00:17:17.080 That could be hate speech.
00:17:18.740 So the idea is when you give people license
00:17:21.280 to go after hate speech,
00:17:23.360 all you're doing is giving license to censor
00:17:25.480 based on things they may hate,
00:17:28.420 based on expressions they may oppose.
00:17:31.040 And the reason that this is so essential to talk about
00:17:35.100 is because there is very much a trend against liberty,
00:17:38.560 against freedom of speech in Canadian society.
00:17:40.840 And stories like this, in a perverse way,
00:17:43.240 are valuable because they force people to realize that,
00:17:45.880 well, hey, maybe I don't want government busybodies
00:17:48.480 telling me what I can and can't say.
00:17:50.060 Well, then oppose Bill C-36 when it comes back,
00:17:52.920 which it will.
00:17:54.180 Speaking of liberty,
00:17:55.560 going to return with an in-depth discussion
00:17:57.700 with Jacques Boudreau, leader of the Libertarian Party of Canada,
00:18:00.960 in just a couple of moments' time.
00:18:02.520 This is The Andrew Lawton Show here on True North.
00:18:06.340 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:18:11.360 Welcome back to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:18:13.640 Well, obviously, the 2021 election is done,
00:18:16.360 but for most parties and political movers,
00:18:18.800 the fight for the next election,
00:18:20.480 whether that comes in 2023 or 2025,
00:18:23.580 whenever it is, is still underway.
00:18:25.800 And we always try to do things a little bit differently at True North
00:18:28.940 and spotlight some of the parties and leaders
00:18:30.980 who don't necessarily get attention from the mainstream media,
00:18:34.300 but whose perspectives are nonetheless very significant
00:18:37.140 and certainly part of the Canadian political fabric.
00:18:40.420 And I wanted to do exactly that this segment,
00:18:42.400 talk to the leader of the Libertarian Party of Canada,
00:18:45.280 Jacques Boudreau.
00:18:46.500 Now, Jacques is a relatively new leader to the party,
00:18:49.740 as we'll talk about in just a moment.
00:18:51.500 Tim Moen, I had on the show previously,
00:18:53.580 was the former leader.
00:18:54.940 But I should say right out of the gate,
00:18:57.500 Jacques and I have a bit of a history,
00:18:58.820 not a bad history,
00:18:59.660 but when I ran as a candidate in London West
00:19:02.020 for the Progressive Conservative Party of Méditero in 2018,
00:19:06.200 he was the Libertarian candidate in that riding.
00:19:10.120 And we both lost.
00:19:11.600 He's now moved on to leading a party,
00:19:13.280 and I've just run as far from politics as I can.
00:19:16.080 But it's great to talk to you again.
00:19:17.580 Jacques Boudreau, thanks very much for coming on today.
00:19:20.180 Thank you, Andrew.
00:19:21.040 It's great to see you again.
00:19:22.080 So how did you end up the leader?
00:19:25.120 Let's start there.
00:19:25.820 Why did you want that job,
00:19:27.180 and how did you get there?
00:19:29.140 So we had a convention in Edmonton
00:19:31.840 the weekend of August 14th and 15th.
00:19:34.820 In leading up to that,
00:19:36.400 the position of deputy leader was vacant,
00:19:39.680 and I had made up my mind that
00:19:41.920 I would be a good candidate for it,
00:19:45.660 if only because I'm bilingual.
00:19:49.000 I thought Tim did a great job,
00:19:51.140 but in order to get traction in French-speaking Canada,
00:19:54.300 I thought, well, that would be pretty good.
00:19:57.120 But then a few weeks before,
00:19:59.560 Tim announced that he had done his bit
00:20:03.160 and needed to move on.
00:20:06.320 And I thought, well, deputy leader, leader,
00:20:09.120 why not go for it?
00:20:12.480 I mean, I...
00:20:13.160 And of course, jumping right into the busy season,
00:20:16.520 heading into an election, of course, too.
00:20:18.380 Well, I don't know if it's a bad or good omen,
00:20:20.980 but I was elected on the 15th,
00:20:23.400 which is when the election was called.
00:20:25.980 So...
00:20:26.380 There we go.
00:20:27.420 Let me go back to the basics here in a lot of ways,
00:20:29.880 because I know for people that are involved in,
00:20:31.920 you know, politics
00:20:32.740 and have had even some background in political theory,
00:20:35.280 perhaps, the word libertarian takes on a meaning
00:20:38.120 that it might not have for the average Canadian.
00:20:40.780 How do you define what a libertarian is,
00:20:43.580 either in general
00:20:44.500 or just in a Canadian political context,
00:20:46.820 such as the Libertarian Party of Canada?
00:20:50.680 Well, as you know,
00:20:51.760 there are different hues or colours of libertarianism,
00:20:57.220 but to my mind,
00:20:59.140 a libertarian is anybody who abides
00:21:01.300 on a consistent basis to the non-aggression principle.
00:21:05.280 And for those who don't know it,
00:21:06.820 it's very, very simple.
00:21:08.460 It's that the initiation
00:21:10.340 or the threat of initiation of force
00:21:12.180 against the innocent is wrong.
00:21:14.140 And by innocent here,
00:21:15.520 again, because you need to define these things,
00:21:18.060 is anyone who does not engage in the,
00:21:22.140 what I like to refer to as the shall nots, right?
00:21:24.820 So if you don't engage in murder,
00:21:27.420 beating up, raping, stealing,
00:21:31.020 then you are innocent.
00:21:33.140 And it's, I would say from that perspective,
00:21:36.160 we are very at odds with most of the parties
00:21:39.120 who will regularly vote, for example,
00:21:44.900 for laws that would outlaw things
00:21:47.860 that they don't like.
00:21:50.180 But not liking something
00:21:51.720 is very, very different
00:21:53.140 from outlawing something
00:21:56.120 that is wrong,
00:21:59.040 in the sense that, you know,
00:22:00.660 if there's aggression,
00:22:01.640 of course, you want to outlaw it,
00:22:03.460 but you shouldn't outlaw things
00:22:05.740 that you simply disagree with.
00:22:07.740 And, you know,
00:22:08.780 I can think of two very good examples
00:22:11.200 of this in Quebec right now,
00:22:12.600 where people have learned nothing from history.
00:22:16.280 You know,
00:22:16.940 well, the very, very recent one
00:22:19.120 is all the heat
00:22:20.520 that the president of Air Canada
00:22:25.580 is taking
00:22:26.160 because he doesn't speak French.
00:22:29.600 Now, maybe you're offended by this.
00:22:32.200 Maybe you think it's poor marketing,
00:22:36.120 and we could argue that maybe those are,
00:22:38.520 but he's certainly not aggressing anybody
00:22:40.880 by not speaking French.
00:22:42.500 So people who are calling
00:22:44.000 for draconian measures
00:22:45.340 to compel him to do so
00:22:47.060 from a libertarian point of view
00:22:48.620 are completely wrong.
00:22:50.400 More egregious is Bill 21 in Quebec,
00:22:53.460 where, again,
00:22:55.260 if you wear a religious symbol on the job,
00:22:58.260 you are not aggressing anybody.
00:23:00.460 Now, if you don't like it,
00:23:02.400 from a libertarian point of view,
00:23:03.560 it would be, well, that's tough,
00:23:04.940 but you can't start at gunpoint
00:23:07.180 telling people
00:23:07.920 what they can or cannot do
00:23:10.540 simply because you don't like what they do.
00:23:12.520 So I would say it's a very marked difference
00:23:16.480 between us and the other parties
00:23:18.300 who, again, will engage
00:23:19.520 in this type of behavior
00:23:20.420 on a regular basis.
00:23:22.080 Because another thing
00:23:23.180 that is confused greatly
00:23:26.980 is, and François Legault
00:23:29.740 actually made that point.
00:23:31.080 He said, well, Bill 21 is okay
00:23:34.020 because the majority of Quebecers
00:23:35.620 approve of it,
00:23:36.500 and moreover,
00:23:37.340 it was passed democratically,
00:23:39.940 to which I say,
00:23:40.720 well, you are confusing
00:23:42.300 what is legal
00:23:43.020 with what is moral, right?
00:23:44.920 You've made it legal,
00:23:46.100 but it's still immoral.
00:23:47.800 And, you know,
00:23:48.440 there's all kinds of examples
00:23:49.480 of this throughout
00:23:50.400 the history of mankind.
00:23:52.280 I mean, apartheid was legal.
00:23:54.580 Segregation in the southern U.S.
00:23:56.080 was legal.
00:23:58.820 You know, Hitler came into power
00:24:00.520 through democratic means.
00:24:02.420 So there's all kinds of examples
00:24:04.300 where you can't confuse
00:24:05.600 morality with legality.
00:24:07.680 I think you touched on something
00:24:10.240 very important, though, Jacques,
00:24:11.520 and this is, I'd say,
00:24:12.640 one of my biggest frustrations
00:24:14.400 in Canadian politics right now,
00:24:16.720 and it's probably not
00:24:17.640 a distinctly Canadian phenomenon,
00:24:19.520 is that so many people
00:24:20.580 are unwilling to make
00:24:22.020 that distinction.
00:24:22.800 You see this especially
00:24:23.860 in the context of
00:24:25.540 so-called hate speech laws,
00:24:26.940 where people say, you know,
00:24:27.960 because I dislike that speech,
00:24:29.720 I deplore that speech,
00:24:31.040 it should therefore be illegal.
00:24:33.160 How do you break through that?
00:24:34.400 Because I think that
00:24:35.380 what everyone should do
00:24:36.520 is just do exactly
00:24:37.860 what you said,
00:24:38.480 just live their lives
00:24:39.700 as long as they're not
00:24:40.380 aggressing on others,
00:24:41.320 as long as they're not
00:24:42.020 infringing on others' liberties.
00:24:43.360 But so many people
00:24:44.440 want to equate those two
00:24:46.520 and link those two,
00:24:47.700 the legal and the moral.
00:24:49.820 Well, so first of all,
00:24:51.140 just to be crystal clear,
00:24:52.680 the Libertarian Party of Canada
00:24:54.220 is certainly not opposed
00:24:55.300 to the criminal aspect
00:24:57.420 of what, you know,
00:24:58.560 the criminal laws
00:24:59.300 that we have
00:25:00.240 with regard to hate speech.
00:25:01.260 I mean, in terms of
00:25:02.460 aggressing people,
00:25:03.660 we don't condone
00:25:05.280 or favor anybody
00:25:06.700 who would, you know,
00:25:10.420 sort of bring up hate
00:25:12.200 against other people
00:25:13.140 or encourage violence
00:25:14.360 against certain groups.
00:25:15.480 So we're fine with it.
00:25:16.840 Well, if I may, though, Jacques,
00:25:18.200 those are very different things.
00:25:19.740 Encouraging violence,
00:25:20.680 you can argue that's a threat
00:25:22.380 that infringes on other liberties.
00:25:24.300 Where do you draw that line, though?
00:25:25.800 Because bringing up hate,
00:25:26.920 that's an emotion.
00:25:27.820 And we have in Canada
00:25:29.080 a very significant debate
00:25:30.900 about where that line is drawn.
00:25:32.420 So where would you draw it?
00:25:33.580 Yeah, sorry, I misspoke.
00:25:35.000 I mean, I would say
00:25:35.700 anybody who incite violence
00:25:37.200 against a group out of hate.
00:25:39.120 Good, good.
00:25:39.760 No, I mean,
00:25:41.920 part of the battle
00:25:43.420 to answer your question
00:25:44.240 is, of course,
00:25:44.820 is that we've had
00:25:45.660 legal judgments
00:25:47.700 where stating facts
00:25:51.080 that are verifiable
00:25:52.000 could constitute hate speech.
00:25:54.500 I mean, that was
00:25:55.140 a terrible, terrible judgment.
00:25:56.580 I mean, I'm still trying
00:25:58.620 to wrap my head
00:25:59.780 around how one
00:26:00.980 could come to that.
00:26:03.580 I mean, to address your point,
00:26:04.580 I would say that
00:26:05.380 I would point to people
00:26:07.180 that at some point
00:26:08.360 they will be on the receiving end
00:26:10.700 of these types of laws.
00:26:12.920 Like one day
00:26:13.560 they will express an opinion.
00:26:15.380 And we see this
00:26:16.080 on the left all the time.
00:26:17.320 I mean,
00:26:17.940 I think it was on your show
00:26:19.240 last week,
00:26:19.920 possibly where,
00:26:21.760 or maybe it was Candace,
00:26:23.660 but talking about
00:26:25.320 how Margaret Atwood
00:26:28.260 suddenly people turned on her
00:26:33.420 because she expressed
00:26:34.180 an opinion
00:26:34.660 that people didn't like.
00:26:36.700 So one way
00:26:38.280 that we tried
00:26:38.740 to get through to people
00:26:39.640 is, you know,
00:26:40.200 you just wait.
00:26:41.020 At some point
00:26:41.620 you will express an opinion
00:26:42.660 that people will not like.
00:26:44.000 And again,
00:26:44.320 it's not because
00:26:44.740 they don't like it
00:26:45.520 that it constitutes hate speech.
00:26:47.000 and, you know,
00:26:49.720 could try to point
00:26:50.380 to past examples,
00:26:51.760 you know,
00:26:52.220 like Margaret Atwood
00:26:53.360 or other people.
00:26:55.780 We often hear
00:26:56.860 from conservative politicians
00:26:58.340 in particular,
00:26:59.500 the importance
00:27:00.000 of small government,
00:27:01.220 limited government.
00:27:02.220 And now obviously
00:27:02.880 the Libertarian Party
00:27:04.060 is going a lot farther
00:27:05.980 in terms of
00:27:07.020 how much to shrink government.
00:27:08.520 But I will ask you,
00:27:09.660 do you feel
00:27:10.300 that the conservatives
00:27:11.660 are better than the liberals
00:27:13.260 even in a small way
00:27:14.600 on the idea of liberty?
00:27:16.060 Or is your view
00:27:16.880 that they're entirely
00:27:17.960 just two sides
00:27:18.840 of the same coin?
00:27:20.820 I find that conservatism
00:27:22.660 in Canada
00:27:23.320 is very much like
00:27:25.400 the Republican Party
00:27:27.200 in the U.S.
00:27:29.040 in that
00:27:29.620 when they are not in power,
00:27:32.100 they speak
00:27:32.940 a fairly good game.
00:27:34.600 I mean,
00:27:34.840 certainly not as good
00:27:35.800 as I would like it to be.
00:27:37.160 But then you get into power
00:27:38.400 and there's a
00:27:39.860 very serious disconnect
00:27:41.220 between what they argued
00:27:42.680 while in the opposition
00:27:44.120 and what they
00:27:45.220 they do
00:27:46.280 once they're in power.
00:27:47.900 So my answer is
00:27:49.600 the rhetoric
00:27:50.680 is certainly
00:27:52.260 better than the liberals.
00:27:54.280 Once they get into power,
00:27:55.320 I'm not sure.
00:27:57.040 How do you rank
00:27:58.040 the People's Party
00:27:58.880 of Canada?
00:27:59.500 Because this is a party
00:28:00.380 that in the last election
00:28:02.040 in particular
00:28:02.620 was, I think,
00:28:03.440 taking what I would argue
00:28:04.900 are fairly libertarian
00:28:06.040 positions on
00:28:07.120 vaccine mandates,
00:28:08.640 vaccine passports.
00:28:09.620 I know Maxime Bernier
00:28:10.560 has in the past
00:28:11.520 been called,
00:28:12.440 I don't know
00:28:12.780 if he's called himself it,
00:28:13.800 but he's been called
00:28:14.400 by other people
00:28:15.040 more of a libertarian.
00:28:16.480 Has this party
00:28:17.640 done a lot
00:28:18.580 of the work
00:28:19.080 that you would like
00:28:19.760 to see done
00:28:20.220 in Canadian politics
00:28:21.080 on these issues?
00:28:23.620 Yes.
00:28:24.240 I mean,
00:28:24.660 they,
00:28:25.980 well,
00:28:26.120 Maxime does not want
00:28:27.180 to be referred to
00:28:28.120 as a libertarian.
00:28:28.920 I think he's made
00:28:29.460 that clear.
00:28:31.100 I mean,
00:28:32.500 when he quit
00:28:33.400 the Conservatives,
00:28:34.260 I mean,
00:28:34.440 quite frankly,
00:28:34.820 we had some talks
00:28:35.780 with him
00:28:36.640 and I mean,
00:28:37.480 it didn't go anywhere
00:28:38.320 in part because
00:28:39.040 I think he,
00:28:40.100 again,
00:28:40.340 he does not want
00:28:41.320 to be a libertarian,
00:28:42.120 but they certainly
00:28:42.640 have many elements
00:28:45.740 of their platform
00:28:46.480 are identical to ours.
00:28:48.500 In fact,
00:28:49.140 we think sometimes
00:28:49.880 he's taken them,
00:28:52.220 which is fine.
00:28:52.760 I mean,
00:28:53.080 we're about ideas,
00:28:54.500 not necessarily
00:28:55.180 being in power,
00:28:56.360 but I would simply say
00:28:58.100 I don't think
00:28:58.540 they go far enough,
00:28:59.780 but I certainly,
00:29:00.380 like when they talk
00:29:01.880 about doing away
00:29:03.300 with supply management,
00:29:04.640 you know,
00:29:04.780 we would certainly
00:29:05.380 be in favor
00:29:07.140 of that,
00:29:07.720 you know,
00:29:07.960 smaller government,
00:29:08.940 but I think
00:29:11.220 we'd still have
00:29:11.820 a very large
00:29:12.940 federal government
00:29:14.040 under a PPC government.
00:29:17.840 What is it
00:29:18.560 that you would like
00:29:19.440 to see if you were
00:29:20.420 the prime minister
00:29:21.100 and I know obviously
00:29:22.020 you're not talking
00:29:23.160 about expecting that,
00:29:24.600 you have very
00:29:25.100 realistic expectations
00:29:26.200 about being a party
00:29:27.480 of ideas,
00:29:28.100 but what would be
00:29:28.800 the top three things
00:29:29.900 that you think
00:29:30.320 would be feasible
00:29:31.140 within the Canadian
00:29:32.580 political climate
00:29:33.500 that would move things
00:29:34.360 to where you want
00:29:35.020 them to be?
00:29:37.140 Well,
00:29:38.420 I'm an actuary
00:29:40.220 by background,
00:29:42.020 so,
00:29:42.600 you know,
00:29:43.780 the fiscal side
00:29:44.620 of things,
00:29:45.160 particularly
00:29:45.600 what we refer to
00:29:48.140 as unfunded liabilities
00:29:49.480 is a massive,
00:29:51.280 massive problem,
00:29:52.100 which,
00:29:52.760 and I find this
00:29:53.500 bewildering,
00:29:54.440 but nobody talks
00:29:55.320 about this.
00:29:56.320 I have brought it up
00:29:57.440 on the campaign trail
00:29:58.460 and all I get
00:30:00.100 is people's eyes
00:30:01.300 glazing over,
00:30:02.200 but,
00:30:03.060 you know,
00:30:03.380 it amounts to
00:30:04.020 $2.7 trillion
00:30:05.120 in this country
00:30:06.240 and there are
00:30:07.160 promises made
00:30:07.840 to people
00:30:08.340 that will be
00:30:09.300 very,
00:30:09.720 very difficult
00:30:10.220 to keep.
00:30:13.160 So,
00:30:13.640 I certainly,
00:30:14.840 and this is not even,
00:30:16.700 strictly speaking,
00:30:17.500 libertarian,
00:30:18.240 but it needs
00:30:19.660 to be addressed.
00:30:20.560 I mean,
00:30:20.960 from a libertarian
00:30:21.840 point of view,
00:30:22.320 one of the things
00:30:22.860 that absolutely
00:30:24.280 needs to be done
00:30:25.120 is to allow
00:30:25.860 young people
00:30:26.540 to opt out
00:30:27.800 of things
00:30:28.460 like the CPP
00:30:29.180 because the rate
00:30:30.860 of return,
00:30:31.300 the implied rate
00:30:31.900 of return
00:30:32.260 on their contributions
00:30:33.100 is abysmal
00:30:34.280 and I can show
00:30:36.080 you the numbers
00:30:36.660 at some point,
00:30:37.480 but that needs
00:30:39.120 to be addressed.
00:30:39.860 I mean,
00:30:40.020 we cannot continue
00:30:40.920 to kick the can
00:30:41.860 down the road,
00:30:42.520 which is what we do
00:30:43.360 and at some point,
00:30:45.880 like Medicare,
00:30:47.240 it's included in that.
00:30:49.960 You know,
00:30:50.340 one of my colleagues
00:30:51.080 at the Canadian
00:30:51.940 Institute of Actuaries
00:30:53.120 in 2013
00:30:53.940 projected that 25 years
00:30:56.600 from that date,
00:30:59.320 close to 100%
00:31:00.340 of provincial taxes
00:31:03.300 would need to go
00:31:04.420 to pay for health care.
00:31:05.940 So if you're
00:31:06.580 a big government person,
00:31:07.880 that leaves no money
00:31:09.500 to pay for education,
00:31:10.660 leaves no money
00:31:11.180 to pay for roads
00:31:12.000 and all the things
00:31:13.120 that people want.
00:31:14.100 That needs to be addressed
00:31:15.180 and I see no plan
00:31:17.580 whatsoever
00:31:18.120 on the part of government
00:31:19.420 to address that.
00:31:21.460 Yeah,
00:31:21.900 very,
00:31:22.320 very well said.
00:31:23.360 Jacques Boudreau,
00:31:24.040 leader of the
00:31:24.720 Libertarian Party of Canada,
00:31:26.100 will have to have you
00:31:26.720 back on the show
00:31:27.300 and perhaps do
00:31:28.100 a deeper dive
00:31:28.940 into the pension question
00:31:30.900 because I think
00:31:31.460 it's a very important one.
00:31:32.700 Thanks very much
00:31:33.240 for coming on, Jacques.
00:31:34.460 All right,
00:31:34.900 thank you.
00:31:35.900 That was Jacques Boudreau,
00:31:37.480 leader of the
00:31:38.160 Libertarian Party of Canada
00:31:39.540 and my one-time
00:31:40.860 political rival
00:31:42.080 in London West
00:31:43.240 circa 2018.
00:31:44.200 Not circa 2018,
00:31:45.140 it was literally in 2018.
00:31:46.520 Anyway,
00:31:47.240 this is the problem
00:31:47.780 with Latin.
00:31:48.660 In any case,
00:31:49.780 we've got to end things there.
00:31:51.220 My thanks to Jacques
00:31:52.520 and to you all
00:31:53.060 for tuning in
00:31:53.660 to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:31:54.980 We'll be back tomorrow
00:31:56.060 with a special edition
00:31:57.480 of the program,
00:31:58.140 a deep dive
00:31:58.660 into the inflation crisis
00:32:00.500 afflicting this country.
00:32:02.340 What is the problem?
00:32:03.400 Where is it coming from?
00:32:04.340 And what do we do about it?
00:32:05.800 And then back to
00:32:06.820 regular full-strength edition
00:32:08.160 of Canada's
00:32:09.140 Most Irreverent Talk Show
00:32:10.100 next week.
00:32:10.840 Thanks to you all.
00:32:11.460 We'll talk to you soon.
00:32:12.280 Thank you.
00:32:12.800 God bless and good day.
00:32:14.220 Thanks for listening
00:32:14.960 to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:32:16.160 Support the program
00:32:17.240 by donating to True North
00:32:18.460 at www.tnc.news.
00:32:26.060 www.tnc.news.com