Juno News - Fighting Racism With Racism

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:06.740 This is the Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:00:12.860 Coming up, racial hiring at CBC, a war criminal gunned down in Canada,

00:00:18.040 and why the government doesn't want you to know how much it's spending to fight against your rights.

00:00:24.580 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.

00:00:31.000 Hi everyone, welcome to another edition of the Andrew Lawton Show,

00:00:34.960 Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show here on True North.

00:00:37.920 It's great to have you aboard this program as we talk about the latest development in the race wars.

00:00:45.100 We talk all the time now, everyone, the media, corporate world, academics,

00:00:49.380 everyone's talking about how we need to purge ourselves of unconscious bias.

00:00:53.860 We need to eradicate systemic racism.

00:00:56.040 We have to purge anything within our institutions that fosters racism.

00:01:02.380 But then CBC comes along, and in the name of doing that,

00:01:06.240 in the name of purging itself of systemic racism,

00:01:09.160 actually puts a new racial litmus test into its job postings.

00:01:13.880 This is a press release from the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, from CBC,

00:01:20.080 as part of its so-called Working Group on Racism and Bias in Canada's state broadcaster.

00:01:26.600 This is the broadcaster that gets $1.3 billion of your taxpayer money,

00:01:31.040 which means the decisions that CBC makes are not just about some private company deciding a path forward,

00:01:37.880 but basically what the government is doing,

00:01:40.580 what a group that is backed by and exists only because of the government is doing.

00:01:45.760 And what CBC's group has come up with is a list of promises, basically,

00:01:50.520 or commitments or quota that will guide the CBC moving forward.

00:01:55.980 And one of these is incredibly, incredibly absurd.

00:02:00.680 This is a direct quote.

00:02:02.320 Half of all new hires for executive and senior management positions

00:02:05.980 will be Indigenous people, visible minorities, or people with disabilities,

00:02:11.080 and retention and promotion rates for people from these three groups will be doubled.

00:02:18.240 So if they look at people within these groups and find this is the rate at which they're getting promoted,

00:02:23.940 they have to double that rate,

00:02:26.340 which means that promotions are all of a sudden going to be racially motivated.

00:02:32.080 And also the fact that they're only going to be hiring people in senior roles

00:02:36.400 if they are half of them in these groups that were just laid out.

00:02:41.500 So that's part of it.

00:02:42.660 And then also you look further down

00:02:44.180 and they're going to make unconscious bias training mandatory for people,

00:02:48.740 leading people, including senior management,

00:02:50.920 and available on demand to any employee.

00:02:54.000 Now, I'm going to get to the unconscious bias part a bit later on,

00:02:57.040 but I want to focus on this initial diversity-based hiring and diversity-based promotion.

00:03:03.740 You see, when I first ran through this, I had missed the promotion part

00:03:07.960 because I was just so aghast at the first bullet point there

00:03:11.100 that half of new hires for these executive positions

00:03:13.560 will be Indigenous, visible minorities, or people with disabilities.

00:03:18.120 And there are a few different parts of this.

00:03:20.900 And I want to read the rationale that CBC has provided here

00:03:24.020 because this came in a press release that hasn't gotten much media attention.

00:03:28.820 I tweeted it out.

00:03:29.940 I know there were a couple of articles about it.

00:03:32.200 But then a lot of people started getting nasty with me

00:03:36.080 because they thought that I was announcing the policy.

00:03:38.400 They thought that I was a CBC personality,

00:03:42.060 which is pretty much the most offensive thing anyone's ever thought about me.

00:03:46.240 But there was a statement from Catherine Tate,

00:03:49.020 who's the president and CEO of CBC Radio Canada.

00:03:54.020 She says,

00:03:54.360 We are committed to combating racism in all its forms,

00:04:05.420 to removing structural barriers and practices that result in discrimination

00:04:09.920 at CBC Radio Canada,

00:04:12.140 and to improve our workplace culture in tangible, concrete ways.

00:04:16.580 We know these issues aren't new.

00:04:19.140 People have been raising concerns for a long time,

00:04:21.460 and our responses haven't worked fast enough.

00:04:24.180 So we're going to tackle things differently

00:04:26.060 and intensify the transformation of our organization

00:04:29.140 so that we are truly inclusive and representative of Contemporary Canada.

00:04:33.980 Now, I mean, there's a lot of the standard mumbo-jumbo corporate speak in there

00:04:37.760 that we can all do better.

00:04:38.980 It's very Trudopian. 0.84

00:04:40.500 We know that racism exists.

00:04:42.200 Every institution is affected by it, including CBC.

00:04:45.120 But when they say that they're combating racism in all its forms,

00:04:50.560 the answer to that is not implementing a racial litmus test,

00:04:54.760 which is a flawed idea for two reasons.

00:04:57.460 Number one, merit-based hiring is, if you're an organization,

00:05:01.860 the top priority because you want to make sure that the people you're promoting,

00:05:05.120 the people you're hiring are good at their jobs.

00:05:07.120 This is not at all to say that people who are visible minorities

00:05:10.340 or people with disabilities are not good at their jobs.

00:05:13.380 But it's to say that if you make competence your top priority,

00:05:17.560 nothing else factors in.

00:05:19.540 Nothing else factors in.

00:05:20.680 If you're making competence your number one priority,

00:05:23.360 the other things should not matter at all.

00:05:26.520 Now, if you are talking about having a range of backgrounds,

00:05:30.840 I think there is an approach there that would be valuable,

00:05:33.980 but not ethnic backgrounds, more outlook.

00:05:36.480 Hey, someone who grew up in a city is already on your team

00:05:39.720 and you have a new job.

00:05:40.760 Here's someone who grew up in rural Canada.

00:05:42.780 Having an indigenous perspective can be valuable,

00:05:45.100 especially when it comes to programming or content.

00:05:47.900 But when you are talking about executive senior management positions,

00:05:52.120 they're not talking about a diversity of opinions here.

00:05:55.000 They're not talking about a range of backgrounds

00:05:57.860 to make sure that everyone doesn't think the same way.

00:06:00.340 They're talking about quotas.

00:06:02.240 And the reason you know that is because they are talking about visible minorities.

00:06:07.420 If it was just about, we want to make sure that, you know,

00:06:11.440 we're serving Canada by having people of all different backgrounds and types in our team,

00:06:16.660 it wouldn't matter if you were a visible minority or not.

00:06:20.460 I mean, someone who's Jewish is part of a group

00:06:22.880 that is still the number one targeted group of hate crimes in Canada,

00:06:27.340 anti-Semitic hate crimes and anti-Semitic hateful graffiti and vandalism,

00:06:32.120 more than any other group.

00:06:33.300 But a lot of Jewish people would not qualify for this

00:06:37.000 because they are not visible minorities.

00:06:39.120 It was actually a Jewish friend of mine who pointed this out yesterday

00:06:43.400 when this whole thing came out.

00:06:45.500 So you have to be a visible minority.

00:06:48.020 You can't just be an invisible minority.

00:06:50.080 And there's now a racial litmus test.

00:06:52.640 So to be at CBC, you have a better chance of getting hired,

00:06:56.780 or if you are a minority, then not,

00:06:59.200 because CBC has instituted a quota system.

00:07:03.560 And the whole point here that I think needs to be understood,

00:07:06.400 when they say half, that is a quota.

00:07:09.300 That is not, we just want to keep an eye out and be mindful.

00:07:12.120 That is a measurable target.

00:07:14.500 It's quantifiable, which may be great for ensuring that they've done their part

00:07:18.760 in a couple of years by the time this is supposed to be in effect.

00:07:21.760 But it is, in fact, a quota system.

00:07:24.400 And when they say they're doing it by 2021, 2022,

00:07:28.360 I find that to be a bit hilarious too.

00:07:30.760 If you're going to put a quota in and you say that you're going to prioritize

00:07:33.560 these sorts of racial and ethnic metrics for hiring,

00:07:37.460 why not put it in now?

00:07:39.000 Why not say, all right, the next person we hire, we're starting this up.

00:07:42.500 And, you know, it's a coin toss, whether we're up for,

00:07:44.920 maybe they'll do it like U.S. senators,

00:07:46.580 where, you know, there are two senators in each state,

00:07:49.680 the senior senator and the junior senator.

00:07:51.800 And every six years, well, one of them is up for election

00:07:55.280 at the time that the other one isn't.

00:07:57.660 So what they can do is then say, oh, no, it's up for,

00:08:00.940 we have to do a minority hire now.

00:08:02.400 Nope, nope, we're in non-minority hire again.

00:08:05.660 And that's the inherent absurdity of this.

00:08:08.400 But when you talk about retention and promotion rates,

00:08:12.380 now this is hugely, hugely concerning.

00:08:15.260 And they don't say whether these retention and promotion rates

00:08:18.160 are referring to just people in those executive

00:08:21.400 and senior management positions, or if it's across the board.

00:08:25.060 If it's across the board, this now means that, you know,

00:08:29.320 Joe Producer or Jane Producer or Joe Anchor, Jane Anchor,

00:08:34.880 they are at a higher likelihood of getting promoted

00:08:38.360 if they are a minority,

00:08:40.280 because CBC has, again, instituted this test

00:08:44.000 that means these groups have to be in a demonstrable

00:08:47.300 and quantifiable way hired and promoted more frequently.

00:08:52.720 And this is something that for a lot of people,

00:08:56.440 if you accept the narrative that CBC

00:08:58.940 is a systemically racist institution,

00:09:01.180 by the way, CBC, which had Gian Gomeschi,

00:09:04.820 I mean, forget about Gian Gomeschi's later years,

00:09:07.420 but Gian Gomeschi on, who was an Iranian-Canadian

00:09:10.020 in a flagship show.

00:09:11.140 So they have their anchor chairs of The National,

00:09:14.200 which were initially involving an Asian man

00:09:17.040 and a South Asian man.

00:09:18.740 You have people from many minority backgrounds

00:09:21.620 across the board in positions at CBC.

00:09:23.960 So there is representation.

00:09:27.020 And you look at that CBC Kids recap show

00:09:29.820 that I talked about last week,

00:09:31.200 where they were slamming J.K. Rowling again.

00:09:34.060 You had three co-hosts on that.

00:09:35.780 One was black and two were Asian.

00:09:38.440 So there is representation on air,

00:09:41.760 whether there is behind the scenes or not,

00:09:43.460 I don't know.

00:09:44.260 I don't spend a lot of time, gratefully,

00:09:46.500 wandering the corporate halls of CBC on Front Street.

00:09:50.520 But to say that this is a racist organization,

00:09:53.660 when they have already gone out of their way,

00:09:56.500 by their own admission,

00:09:57.720 to hire non-white people to be the face of CBC,

00:10:01.340 and this was that CBC Kids posting,

00:10:04.040 I know I've mentioned it the last couple of shows,

00:10:05.640 but it was very telling when they were hiring for a job

00:10:08.420 and they said no Caucasians allowed,

00:10:10.460 they eventually apologized for that when they got caught.

00:10:14.400 But that was the approach.

00:10:15.960 So to say that CBC is racist

00:10:18.680 is, I think, a bit interesting

00:10:21.380 because they've already been doing a lot of these concerns.

00:10:24.580 I know job postings at CBC,

00:10:26.340 like most other corporate institutions

00:10:28.540 and government institutions in Canada,

00:10:30.600 always allow you to voluntarily tick off that box

00:10:34.260 when you're applying that says you are a visible minority,

00:10:38.200 a person with disability, et cetera.

00:10:40.080 This is just standard practice.

00:10:42.000 And in some cases,

00:10:42.900 they even ask you about sexual orientation in these things.

00:10:46.020 I don't know if CBC does,

00:10:48.580 but other institutions do,

00:10:50.360 including there was one job a little while ago

00:10:52.880 that someone flagged for me at the University of Toronto,

00:10:55.580 not because they wanted me to apply for it.

00:10:57.640 They just wanted me to see that this is what U of T was asking.

00:11:01.200 And I'm like, well, wait,

00:11:01.800 why does it matter if they know if you're gay or bisexual or not,

00:11:05.260 if you're applying for a job in the IT department

00:11:08.620 or whatever it was?

00:11:10.840 So all of this is to say

00:11:12.880 that CBC has now made its environment

00:11:16.400 a lot more race-conscious and race-focused

00:11:19.360 by brazenly and overtly making hiring decisions

00:11:23.540 predicated at least in part on race.

00:11:26.000 And I want to go through a lot of the conversations

00:11:28.160 that tend to happen when this topic comes up.

00:11:31.120 It's affirmative action on steroids here, 0.74

00:11:33.680 because I say, okay,

00:11:35.540 you need to make merit the first priority.

00:11:38.240 And then someone else responds,

00:11:40.060 oh, are you saying that visible minorities

00:11:42.300 aren't worthy of being hired

00:11:43.980 and don't have the skill sets?

00:11:45.120 To which I say, no, 0.99

00:11:46.160 you're being ridiculous and you're race-baiting. 0.99

00:11:48.320 What I'm saying is that 0.99

00:11:49.400 if you make merit your top focus,

00:11:51.360 you don't need to incorporate other things.

00:11:54.620 And that's where the conversation

00:11:56.600 tends to go off the rails.

00:11:58.000 It's not to say that there aren't minorities

00:12:01.180 that are entirely capable

00:12:02.940 and are the best candidate.

00:12:04.220 And that's the whole point of equality,

00:12:06.660 equality of opportunity

00:12:07.880 rather than equality of outcome.

00:12:11.180 But if we go down this road,

00:12:14.040 the people who suffer the most in this situation

00:12:16.840 are the visible minorities

00:12:18.560 who are incredibly great at their jobs,

00:12:21.000 rise through the ranks,

00:12:22.220 and then you breed resentment

00:12:23.760 against these people

00:12:25.060 because someone who doesn't get the promotion,

00:12:27.120 who might just be a terrible employee

00:12:29.080 and didn't deserve it,

00:12:29.940 but happens to be a white male,

00:12:31.580 is looking and saying,

00:12:32.560 huh, I wonder if they only got promoted

00:12:34.640 because of this policy

00:12:36.000 that CBC has put in place

00:12:37.500 vowing to double the promotion rates

00:12:40.640 for people in these groups.

00:12:43.520 So it calls into question

00:12:46.240 anyone's success at CBC

00:12:48.220 who happens to be in one of these groups,

00:12:50.920 which means it's not just about ensuring

00:12:52.940 that you are representative

00:12:54.160 of the population you serve.

00:12:56.260 It's about a lot more than that.

00:12:58.440 It's about reprogramming the way people think,

00:13:01.340 which is why unconscious bias training,

00:13:03.680 the other part of this announcement,

00:13:05.540 is something that I need to talk about

00:13:07.560 for a few moments here

00:13:08.560 because they're making it mandatory

00:13:10.400 for people that are in leadership roles.

00:13:12.800 I don't know,

00:13:13.420 senior management is a big group at CBC.

00:13:15.740 I don't know where they're drawing the line

00:13:17.360 of what senior is

00:13:18.520 versus what just supervisory is,

00:13:21.840 but they're committing better resources,

00:13:24.240 they say,

00:13:24.820 to retain and identify

00:13:27.420 internal and external candidates

00:13:30.120 from these groups.

00:13:31.120 But the unconscious bias

00:13:32.820 is also going to influence reporting

00:13:35.420 as well as the focus

00:13:37.320 of the company itself,

00:13:38.840 of CBC.

00:13:39.760 But I was reading up about this

00:13:41.860 because I've never actually

00:13:42.780 had to go through this

00:13:43.900 corporate diversity stuff oddly.

00:13:46.320 I worked for a giant media company,

00:13:48.220 but somehow I managed to

00:13:50.300 not have to do anything like this.

00:13:52.320 I've had to do like copyright law training

00:13:54.280 and stuff like that,

00:13:55.100 but never unconscious bias training.

00:13:58.100 And the thing was,

00:13:58.960 I was reading it

00:13:59.960 and I was fascinated by the fact

00:14:01.620 that most of the criticisms of it

00:14:03.240 that I found

00:14:03.980 were not just from visible minorities,

00:14:07.360 but were from visible minorities

00:14:09.280 who like work in the space

00:14:10.740 of diversity and equity and equality.

00:14:12.900 So very much social justice minded,

00:14:15.660 visible minority people

00:14:17.160 were criticizing

00:14:18.620 unconscious bias training

00:14:20.280 because they say

00:14:21.320 it doesn't actually do anything.

00:14:22.820 It says there's no idea,

00:14:25.240 there's no research,

00:14:26.360 there's no evidence

00:14:27.000 to suggest that anything

00:14:28.300 along this line

00:14:30.080 reduces discrimination,

00:14:32.300 reduces racism,

00:14:33.260 or even contributes to anything

00:14:35.700 of substance moving forward.

00:14:38.480 And I want to read a couple of these

00:14:39.940 because one is from Bloomberg

00:14:41.860 where a writer,

00:14:43.600 Tomas Chamorro-Promuzic,

00:14:45.360 I'm butchering the name

00:14:46.880 and I apologize for that,

00:14:48.520 says, talks about Google,

00:14:50.320 Papa John's, Starbucks,

00:14:51.620 all companies that have done

00:14:52.840 implicit bias training.

00:14:54.860 And they say,

00:14:55.600 there is no convincing

00:14:57.460 scientific evidence

00:14:58.900 that it works.

00:14:59.940 In fact,

00:15:00.400 much of the academic evidence

00:15:01.820 on implicit bias interventions

00:15:03.560 highlights their weakness

00:15:05.000 as a method

00:15:05.760 for boosting diversity

00:15:07.040 and inclusion.

00:15:08.720 Instructions to suppress stereotypes

00:15:10.640 often have the opposite effect

00:15:12.720 and prejudice reduction programs

00:15:14.780 are much more effective

00:15:16.760 when people are already

00:15:17.620 open-minded,

00:15:18.520 altruistic,

00:15:19.280 and concerned

00:15:20.260 about their prejudices

00:15:21.560 to begin with.

00:15:22.620 And one of the papers

00:15:25.040 that's cited here

00:15:26.020 is an academic paper

00:15:27.320 that looks at this

00:15:28.040 called

00:15:28.520 Pointless Diversity Training, 1.00

00:15:30.440 Unconscious Bias, 1.00

00:15:31.860 New Racism,

00:15:32.920 and Agency.

00:15:33.900 So the point here

00:15:34.960 is that the type of people

00:15:35.860 that are going to

00:15:36.720 take these programs seriously

00:15:38.320 are already doing

00:15:39.800 what they can

00:15:40.440 to combat prejudices

00:15:41.760 and stereotypes.

00:15:42.820 It does what I mentioned earlier

00:15:44.360 with the quotas,

00:15:45.400 whereas it turns people

00:15:46.360 against those

00:15:47.580 that they're supposed to be

00:15:48.740 protecting against bias towards.

00:15:51.200 And it just doesn't

00:15:53.100 actually solve

00:15:54.000 the underlying problems.

00:15:56.280 And then I looked at

00:15:57.300 why that is

00:15:58.900 in a little bit more detail.

00:16:00.780 And there were two pieces

00:16:02.460 actually that came up.

00:16:03.540 One of them I liked,

00:16:04.960 Don't Do Unconscious Bias Training.

00:16:07.520 Now this is from a group

00:16:08.480 called Tidal Equality,

00:16:10.560 which is a strategy firm

00:16:12.320 at the intersection

00:16:13.320 of social change

00:16:14.780 and diversity and inclusion.

00:16:16.840 So this is not from

00:16:17.860 like a right-wing

00:16:19.340 hate-monger site,

00:16:20.640 as some of the left would say.

00:16:22.100 This is from a group

00:16:23.580 that has a vested interest

00:16:24.940 in tidal equality,

00:16:26.660 as its name is.

00:16:27.380 So like a tidal wave

00:16:28.660 of social change

00:16:29.540 and diversity and inclusion.

00:16:31.620 And they say

00:16:32.380 it's basically for companies

00:16:34.780 to tick the box

00:16:36.460 of unconscious bias training.

00:16:38.600 They say these things

00:16:39.740 are risk mitigation

00:16:40.900 and compliance.

00:16:41.800 They aren't there

00:16:42.460 for people who experience

00:16:43.960 and understand discrimination,

00:16:45.400 but corporate lawyers.

00:16:46.520 They say it doesn't work.

00:16:48.320 It never includes

00:16:49.320 the things that do work

00:16:51.160 and ultimately

00:16:52.360 all they've done

00:16:53.600 is produce this thing

00:16:55.140 that has no evidence anywhere

00:16:57.900 that the awareness,

00:16:59.440 which is all they're really doing,

00:17:00.480 is leading to behavioral change.

00:17:02.300 And Starbucks was hit for this

00:17:03.900 a couple of years ago

00:17:04.880 when Starbucks decided

00:17:06.000 to shut down

00:17:07.020 all of its stores.

00:17:07.920 I don't know if it was

00:17:08.540 worldwide or just in the US.

00:17:10.060 I think Canada was included.

00:17:12.280 All of its stores

00:17:12.960 so that its employees

00:17:13.860 could do a day-long seminar

00:17:15.520 of unconscious bias training.

00:17:18.800 And the reason for this 0.83

00:17:19.660 was that two black 0.96

00:17:21.360 Starbucks patrons

00:17:22.260 had been,

00:17:23.240 were just minding

00:17:24.460 their own business

00:17:24.980 and the cops had been

00:17:25.760 called on them

00:17:26.400 in Seattle,

00:17:27.320 I think it was.

00:17:28.540 And this happened

00:17:29.880 and the Starbucks store

00:17:30.980 shut down.

00:17:31.980 Starbucks surrenders

00:17:33.200 what I would have to assume

00:17:34.360 is millions of dollars

00:17:35.280 in profits for a day

00:17:36.380 because they want

00:17:36.960 to take this seriously.

00:17:38.200 And then everyone

00:17:38.900 craps on Starbucks

00:17:39.960 and says they're not

00:17:41.140 going far enough

00:17:41.900 because you can't unlearn

00:17:43.320 lifelong biases in a day

00:17:45.040 and you need to do

00:17:46.140 all these other things

00:17:47.020 and it has to be ongoing

00:17:48.160 and none of that

00:17:49.960 really happens.

00:17:51.500 A lot of the critics

00:17:52.480 of these programs say

00:17:53.440 so these programs

00:17:54.560 get more criticism

00:17:55.700 from the left

00:17:56.580 than they do

00:17:57.660 from the right

00:17:58.480 because it becomes

00:18:00.400 about tokenism.

00:18:02.260 It becomes about tokenism

00:18:03.780 and you look at

00:18:04.620 what else CBC

00:18:05.340 is doing here.

00:18:06.680 They want to train

00:18:07.880 inclusive newsrooms

00:18:09.400 the impact of

00:18:10.240 unconscious bias

00:18:11.100 on our content

00:18:12.340 and reporting

00:18:13.140 in indigenous communities.

00:18:15.000 Now report

00:18:15.760 these are areas

00:18:16.640 where I think

00:18:17.420 there's a benefit

00:18:18.060 to diversity.

00:18:18.940 If someone's going

00:18:19.420 to be reporting

00:18:20.040 in an indigenous community

00:18:21.720 it would be helpful

00:18:22.460 for them to be indigenous

00:18:24.100 or to at least

00:18:24.880 have an understanding

00:18:26.100 of indigenous issues.

00:18:28.060 If someone is going

00:18:29.060 to manage a team

00:18:30.240 of indigenous reporters

00:18:31.380 it would be helpful

00:18:32.100 for them to have

00:18:32.940 a background in that

00:18:34.560 and have a connection

00:18:35.880 direct or indirect

00:18:37.380 with that culture.

00:18:39.280 So I'm not anti-diversity.

00:18:41.020 What I am

00:18:42.240 is a proponent

00:18:43.220 of the idea

00:18:43.900 that diversity

00:18:44.640 has to be organic.

00:18:46.600 You can't manufacture it

00:18:47.980 you can't manipulate it

00:18:49.200 and if you do

00:18:49.840 it has to come

00:18:51.020 at the expense

00:18:51.660 of something else.

00:18:52.880 It comes at the expense

00:18:54.080 of cohesion

00:18:54.760 maybe it comes

00:18:55.560 at the expense

00:18:56.200 of merit

00:18:57.000 but it comes

00:18:57.940 at the expense

00:18:58.540 of something else

00:18:59.340 if you choose

00:19:00.100 to make diversity

00:19:01.260 itself the goal.

00:19:03.140 You know

00:19:03.340 there was a great line

00:19:04.760 that I actually want

00:19:05.460 to share with you

00:19:06.140 about this

00:19:06.760 about the moral neutrality

00:19:08.420 of diversity.

00:19:09.940 It was from

00:19:10.220 a sit-down interview

00:19:11.120 I did I think

00:19:12.020 about a year ago

00:19:12.760 with Mark Stein.

00:19:14.240 Take a look.

00:19:14.860 Well you look at

00:19:15.400 the now official

00:19:16.320 catchphrase of Canada

00:19:17.620 diversity is our strength.

00:19:19.300 I mean that's the type

00:19:20.460 of thing where

00:19:20.980 if some politician

00:19:21.720 says it

00:19:22.520 it might not mean

00:19:23.380 anything

00:19:23.700 but that is actually

00:19:24.540 guiding policy.

00:19:25.440 No but that actually

00:19:26.140 diversity is our strength.

00:19:27.380 I can't stand that

00:19:28.600 because diversity

00:19:29.600 is morally neutral

00:19:31.400 and you can have

00:19:33.360 five nice ladies 1.00

00:19:35.220 like Madame Arbour

00:19:36.500 five nice CBC

00:19:38.480 listening ladies 0.99

00:19:39.900 of Denset and Age

00:19:41.900 who like to listen

00:19:45.320 to CBC radio

00:19:47.020 and that group

00:19:49.700 of five ladies 0.57

00:19:50.740 Denset and Age

00:19:51.720 is not in the least

00:19:52.920 bit diverse.

00:19:54.320 So you add to them

00:19:55.460 Sudan's leading

00:19:57.360 clitoridectomy practitioner

00:19:59.040 and you've made it

00:20:00.900 more diverse

00:20:01.560 but you haven't

00:20:02.620 necessarily made it

00:20:03.920 better.

00:20:04.540 Diversity is an entirely 0.99

00:20:06.020 morally neutral term

00:20:08.620 and simply saying

00:20:11.680 diversity is our strength

00:20:14.060 with a glassy eyed

00:20:14.980 expression

00:20:15.500 because you've been

00:20:16.540 told it ever since

00:20:17.500 kindergarten

00:20:18.040 does not actually

00:20:18.840 make it so.

00:20:19.980 I think you should

00:20:20.440 actually pitch that

00:20:21.300 to like the replacement

00:20:22.300 of the view

00:20:22.800 you know Sudan's leading 0.99

00:20:23.820 clitoridectomy specialist

00:20:24.880 you Louise Arbour

00:20:25.820 and everyone else.

00:20:27.240 It would make that show

00:20:28.100 a lot more interesting.

00:20:29.740 But you bring up

00:20:30.880 well actually

00:20:31.640 let's not start

00:20:32.780 with the view

00:20:33.280 this cockamamie thing

00:20:34.680 they've got on the

00:20:35.360 national since Peter

00:20:36.500 Mansbridge retired

00:20:37.580 they've got like

00:20:38.540 four anchors

00:20:39.640 carefully selected

00:20:40.760 according to some

00:20:41.600 CBC focus group thing

00:20:43.360 sticks Sudan's leading 1.00

00:20:45.640 clitoridectomy practitioner 0.73

00:20:47.160 in the middle of the

00:20:47.980 national as the

00:20:49.080 fifth host.

00:20:50.260 I think that's a

00:20:51.160 fantastic way of

00:20:52.000 putting it

00:20:52.340 just because something

00:20:53.200 is more diverse

00:20:54.220 does not make it

00:20:55.320 better and just

00:20:56.600 because something

00:20:57.460 has perhaps had

00:20:58.800 a different

00:20:59.560 perspective added

00:21:00.540 to it

00:21:01.160 on racial grounds

00:21:02.840 doesn't make it

00:21:03.760 better

00:21:04.080 doesn't make it

00:21:04.820 more fair

00:21:05.380 doesn't make it

00:21:06.000 more just

00:21:06.460 doesn't do

00:21:06.940 any of these

00:21:07.480 things.

00:21:07.800 So again

00:21:08.820 I'm not

00:21:09.580 anti-diversity

00:21:10.560 I'm certainly

00:21:11.340 not anti-people

00:21:12.780 from different

00:21:13.560 backgrounds and

00:21:14.400 groups rising up

00:21:15.380 what I am

00:21:16.600 an opponent of

00:21:17.980 is the idea

00:21:18.840 that we should

00:21:20.060 create these

00:21:21.240 racial lines

00:21:22.720 that are used

00:21:24.280 to define people

00:21:25.420 that are used

00:21:26.000 for advancement

00:21:26.740 and that that

00:21:27.600 is somehow

00:21:28.040 going to combat

00:21:29.200 rather than

00:21:30.580 generate and

00:21:31.740 propagate racism

00:21:33.400 at CBC

00:21:34.080 or anywhere else.

00:21:35.680 We've got to

00:21:36.040 take a break

00:21:36.520 when we come back

00:21:37.220 more of the

00:21:37.800 Andrew Lawton

00:21:38.280 show here on

00:21:39.120 True North.

00:21:40.260 You're tuned in

00:21:41.480 to the Andrew

00:21:42.260 Lawton show.

00:21:47.000 You know we

00:21:47.800 were talking

00:21:48.480 earlier about

00:21:49.520 all the things

00:21:50.340 that are now

00:21:50.840 racist in 2020

00:21:52.440 everything everyone

00:21:53.660 that's basically

00:21:54.440 the gist of it

00:21:55.400 it's been a

00:21:55.860 theme the last

00:21:57.020 couple of episodes

00:21:57.900 of the show.

00:21:58.960 This story is

00:21:59.980 not a new one

00:22:00.880 it's from 2019

00:22:01.780 but I've seen it

00:22:02.740 recirculating a

00:22:03.700 fair bit in the

00:22:04.940 current context.

00:22:05.920 It's a piece in

00:22:06.640 The Independent

00:22:07.280 in the UK

00:22:07.960 that Mary Poppins

00:22:09.660 is racist

00:22:10.680 as termed by

00:22:11.920 a US academic

00:22:12.780 because of the

00:22:14.100 soot scene.

00:22:15.700 The 1964

00:22:16.980 film has that

00:22:18.640 famous scene

00:22:19.500 which now is

00:22:21.180 being likened

00:22:21.940 with blackface 0.71

00:22:23.580 and promoting

00:22:24.320 racial stereotypes

00:22:25.520 poor Julie

00:22:26.440 Andrews

00:22:26.980 even though

00:22:28.200 her face

00:22:28.900 was just

00:22:29.420 covered in

00:22:30.180 soot.

00:22:30.720 It was literally

00:22:31.480 a show

00:22:32.240 or a movie

00:22:33.100 about chimney

00:22:33.700 sweeps

00:22:34.100 but now even

00:22:34.760 Mary Poppins

00:22:35.480 is not

00:22:35.980 safe from the

00:22:37.120 racist purge

00:22:39.820 or the racial

00:22:40.380 purge

00:22:40.920 of 2020

00:22:42.280 poor Mary Poppins 0.98

00:22:43.180 and poor

00:22:43.520 Dick Van Dyke

00:22:44.080 he's still alive

00:22:44.780 and kicking

00:22:45.120 and so is

00:22:46.140 Julie Andrews

00:22:46.840 as well

00:22:47.260 and the two

00:22:48.020 of them

00:22:48.220 have actually

00:22:48.840 done I think

00:22:50.020 a great deal

00:22:50.660 for entertainment

00:22:51.820 and now

00:22:52.640 they are forced

00:22:54.040 to see this

00:22:55.040 and this is

00:22:55.820 how they'll be

00:22:56.360 remembered now

00:22:57.160 in the eyes

00:22:58.220 of academia.

00:22:59.840 Here's an

00:23:00.580 interesting one

00:23:01.160 as well

00:23:01.440 the RCMP

00:23:02.000 fined seven

00:23:03.280 Americans

00:23:03.740 last week

00:23:04.340 for stopping

00:23:04.900 to sightsee

00:23:05.900 in Banff

00:23:06.680 National Park

00:23:07.880 the sightseeing

00:23:08.700 was while

00:23:09.500 they were driving

00:23:10.200 from the mainland

00:23:11.080 lower 48

00:23:12.180 United States

00:23:12.860 to Alaska

00:23:13.640 despite the

00:23:14.840 border closure

00:23:15.500 you are allowed

00:23:16.440 to drive

00:23:17.220 from the United

00:23:17.980 States

00:23:18.360 to the United

00:23:19.140 States

00:23:19.520 if you live

00:23:20.020 in Alaska

00:23:20.520 or have a

00:23:21.820 so-called

00:23:22.260 essential reason

00:23:23.200 for going there

00:23:23.980 but you need

00:23:24.980 to take the

00:23:25.520 most direct

00:23:26.300 route.

00:23:27.100 Well that is

00:23:27.800 a very beautiful

00:23:28.800 part of North

00:23:29.820 America

00:23:30.280 so I don't

00:23:30.760 blame anyone

00:23:31.360 American or 0.51

00:23:31.980 otherwise

00:23:32.300 who's driving

00:23:32.920 by the Rockies

00:23:33.740 to take a look

00:23:34.980 and say oh well

00:23:35.500 this is kind of

00:23:35.980 nice we'll stop

00:23:36.880 and maybe get out

00:23:37.920 especially knowing

00:23:39.040 how safe it is

00:23:39.940 to be outdoors

00:23:40.720 even with the

00:23:41.900 pandemic fears

00:23:43.040 but the RCMP

00:23:44.640 were saying nope

00:23:45.440 if you are

00:23:46.760 not there

00:23:47.720 with a legitimate

00:23:48.660 reason you're

00:23:49.420 getting ticketed

00:23:50.140 so if they were

00:23:51.160 seeing US plates

00:23:52.140 they were going

00:23:52.680 after people

00:23:53.420 and again I mean

00:23:54.820 these busy bodies

00:23:55.640 that were doing

00:23:56.360 nothing other

00:23:58.500 than endangering

00:23:59.520 those who they

00:24:00.400 said were breaking

00:24:01.220 the rules

00:24:01.700 when the people

00:24:02.300 that you know

00:24:03.080 were getting ticketed

00:24:03.880 weren't actually

00:24:04.400 doing anything

00:24:04.960 apart from

00:24:05.520 enjoying the beauty

00:24:06.740 of Canada

00:24:07.300 walking around

00:24:08.180 outdoors

00:24:08.640 not causing

00:24:09.660 a threat to

00:24:10.380 anyone

00:24:10.720 so that's just

00:24:11.960 absurd

00:24:12.300 and again the

00:24:13.200 sooner we get

00:24:13.680 back to life

00:24:14.240 life as normal

00:24:15.520 the better it

00:24:16.800 will be for

00:24:17.640 everyone

00:24:18.060 life as normal

00:24:20.220 is not really

00:24:21.040 something that's

00:24:21.620 happened in my

00:24:22.280 town so many of

00:24:23.380 you may know

00:24:23.800 I'm from London

00:24:24.520 Ontario

00:24:25.020 lovely little city

00:24:26.100 very quiet city

00:24:28.160 by and large

00:24:28.860 despite having a

00:24:29.980 big university

00:24:30.620 and a big college

00:24:31.500 here it's kind of

00:24:32.900 off the beaten

00:24:33.600 path from

00:24:34.720 Toronto stuff

00:24:35.960 so it was a

00:24:37.160 little bit surprising

00:24:37.880 when last week

00:24:38.800 a West African

00:24:40.420 warlord

00:24:41.440 was executed

00:24:43.140 it appears

00:24:43.960 in my city

00:24:44.820 of London

00:24:45.420 Ontario

00:24:45.920 actually not

00:24:46.440 not far from

00:24:47.400 me in the

00:24:47.760 grand scheme

00:24:48.140 of things

00:24:48.460 because it's

00:24:48.760 not a big

00:24:49.380 city

00:24:49.660 this was a

00:24:51.060 really weird

00:24:51.960 thing

00:24:52.400 there was a

00:24:52.940 home invasion

00:24:53.580 and a man

00:24:54.040 killed last

00:24:54.640 week

00:24:54.860 that in and

00:24:55.380 of itself

00:24:55.760 is a bit

00:24:56.140 rare in

00:24:56.560 London

00:24:56.780 and then

00:24:57.960 you read

00:24:58.700 through it

00:24:58.980 a little bit

00:24:59.320 more and

00:24:59.680 you find out

00:25:00.220 that he was

00:25:00.680 actually a

00:25:02.220 former Liberian

00:25:04.000 military general

00:25:05.300 who was accused

00:25:06.740 of just heinous

00:25:08.100 war crimes

00:25:08.720 and who was

00:25:09.720 a commander

00:25:10.380 it sounds like

00:25:11.020 was a general

00:25:11.560 under a guy

00:25:12.460 who's now

00:25:13.000 behind bars

00:25:14.180 for being

00:25:15.000 a war criminal

00:25:15.860 and that was

00:25:16.520 Charles Taylor

00:25:17.900 that he was

00:25:19.180 working under

00:25:20.040 and he was

00:25:20.660 connected

00:25:21.100 there's no doubt

00:25:22.020 to the National

00:25:22.800 Patriotic Front

00:25:23.880 of Liberia

00:25:24.760 which is a

00:25:26.280 rebel militia

00:25:27.500 that was led

00:25:28.620 by Charles Taylor

00:25:29.660 who eventually

00:25:30.220 became the

00:25:30.760 president

00:25:31.140 but then was

00:25:31.720 indicted by

00:25:32.500 the UN

00:25:33.700 Special Court

00:25:34.700 for Sierra Leone

00:25:35.520 so all of

00:25:37.160 this stuff

00:25:37.680 is kind of

00:25:39.140 bizarre here

00:25:39.800 this guy

00:25:40.480 was the

00:25:41.180 target

00:25:41.640 it sounds

00:25:42.360 like

00:25:42.660 four masked

00:25:43.680 men

00:25:44.080 I assume

00:25:44.700 they're men

00:25:45.020 I don't want

00:25:45.320 to presume

00:25:45.720 their gender

00:25:46.240 go and break

00:25:47.840 into the house

00:25:48.400 he ends up

00:25:48.940 dead

00:25:49.280 trying to get

00:25:50.040 help from

00:25:50.480 neighboring houses

00:25:51.260 it sounds like

00:25:51.940 it was quite a

00:25:52.560 bloodied scene

00:25:54.020 by all accounts

00:25:54.740 but the thing

00:25:55.540 that I found

00:25:56.040 fascinating about

00:25:56.820 this is no one

00:25:57.640 knows where the

00:25:58.200 guy how the

00:25:59.380 guy ended up

00:25:59.880 in London

00:26:00.260 why he was

00:26:00.900 there

00:26:01.220 his address

00:26:02.320 was apparently

00:26:02.900 in Toronto

00:26:03.500 and that in

00:26:04.280 and of itself

00:26:04.820 raises other

00:26:05.500 questions

00:26:06.040 and there

00:26:07.200 was a story

00:26:07.960 in McLean's

00:26:08.720 a decade ago

00:26:10.060 written about

00:26:10.620 this by

00:26:11.160 by Michael

00:26:11.780 Petro who's

00:26:12.540 a journalist

00:26:13.160 and he spent

00:26:14.000 a considerable

00:26:15.240 amount of

00:26:15.760 time trying

00:26:16.280 to get to

00:26:16.600 the bottom

00:26:16.960 of this

00:26:17.420 and Michael

00:26:18.540 had tweeted

00:26:19.380 something out

00:26:20.280 on June

00:26:21.220 22nd

00:26:22.200 that after

00:26:23.600 pretty much

00:26:24.380 a decade

00:26:25.080 this guy's

00:26:25.940 application

00:26:26.660 for permanent

00:26:27.400 residency

00:26:28.020 was still

00:26:29.240 unresolved

00:26:30.180 so as of

00:26:30.960 February 10th

00:26:32.060 the judicial

00:26:32.920 entry here

00:26:33.560 says that

00:26:34.500 no decision

00:26:35.160 has been rendered

00:26:35.820 on the

00:26:36.140 applicant's

00:26:36.820 application

00:26:37.520 for permanent

00:26:38.640 residence

00:26:39.100 it was

00:26:39.660 transferred

00:26:40.400 back and

00:26:41.020 forth to

00:26:41.460 different

00:26:41.700 departments

00:26:42.180 this document

00:26:43.400 was filed

00:26:43.900 that document

00:26:44.620 was filed

00:26:45.140 but 10

00:26:46.420 years after

00:26:47.240 concerns were

00:26:48.000 raised about

00:26:48.500 this guy

00:26:48.880 being in

00:26:49.360 Canada

00:26:49.720 and being

00:26:50.780 an alleged

00:26:51.560 war criminal

00:26:52.360 Canada

00:26:53.220 could not

00:26:54.140 and did not

00:26:55.020 deal with

00:26:55.940 that

00:26:56.200 did not

00:26:56.700 deport him

00:26:57.400 there was

00:26:58.280 very little

00:26:58.740 information about

00:26:59.720 it about

00:27:00.100 who was

00:27:00.440 living here

00:27:00.960 and I'm

00:27:02.680 not an

00:27:02.980 expert in

00:27:03.500 West African

00:27:04.180 coups

00:27:04.700 I'm not

00:27:05.000 an expert

00:27:05.360 in Liberian

00:27:06.000 politics

00:27:06.460 but I know

00:27:07.380 that when

00:27:07.640 someone is

00:27:08.060 connected

00:27:08.440 with war

00:27:09.000 crimes

00:27:09.420 it should

00:27:10.220 take perhaps

00:27:11.260 a little bit

00:27:11.860 less time

00:27:12.600 than a decade

00:27:13.460 to figure out

00:27:15.000 what's happening

00:27:15.640 and hold them

00:27:16.420 to account

00:27:16.980 Michael Petro

00:27:18.140 has written

00:27:18.640 another piece

00:27:19.260 in the Globe

00:27:19.700 and Mail

00:27:20.040 here and he's

00:27:20.880 written some

00:27:21.300 stuff on Twitter

00:27:21.900 about it

00:27:22.440 effectively saying

00:27:23.600 that justice

00:27:24.280 cannot and

00:27:25.080 will not be

00:27:25.600 served now

00:27:26.300 because of

00:27:27.480 what happened

00:27:28.040 to this man

00:27:29.140 and the

00:27:30.180 problem with

00:27:31.020 that is that

00:27:31.720 there has been

00:27:32.240 ample time

00:27:33.120 an ample

00:27:33.520 opportunity

00:27:34.160 and this

00:27:35.160 is not

00:27:35.520 a failing

00:27:36.180 of Justin

00:27:36.900 Trudeau

00:27:37.320 I think

00:27:37.760 the conservative

00:27:38.320 government

00:27:38.740 has to bear

00:27:39.400 the brunt

00:27:40.200 of this

00:27:40.500 as well

00:27:40.960 there's another

00:27:42.100 case that the

00:27:42.820 conservatives

00:27:43.300 have failed

00:27:44.720 to have any

00:27:45.380 action on

00:27:45.900 and the liberals

00:27:46.360 have failed

00:27:46.760 to have any

00:27:47.240 action on

00:27:47.820 with a former

00:27:49.060 Nazi who

00:27:49.980 pulled up

00:27:50.960 put up roots

00:27:51.740 in Kitchener

00:27:52.500 Waterloo area

00:27:53.360 and again it was

00:27:54.720 just back and

00:27:55.300 forth in the

00:27:55.820 courts

00:27:56.080 and the fact

00:27:56.880 that a country

00:27:58.060 cannot manage

00:28:00.000 to get a war 0.78

00:28:01.300 criminal out

00:28:02.220 of its borders

00:28:03.100 in a decade

00:28:04.560 is an absolute

00:28:06.240 farce

00:28:06.780 how can you

00:28:07.260 take any other

00:28:07.860 border security

00:28:08.660 seriously

00:28:09.240 when someone

00:28:10.360 you know

00:28:10.840 whose past

00:28:11.480 you know

00:28:11.940 however they

00:28:12.760 got in

00:28:13.240 it's a part

00:28:14.760 that we don't

00:28:15.200 know or at

00:28:15.580 least isn't

00:28:15.940 public

00:28:16.260 but we know

00:28:17.040 who he is

00:28:17.640 sounds like

00:28:18.360 they knew

00:28:18.940 where he was

00:28:19.740 how can that

00:28:20.860 not be dealt

00:28:22.160 with

00:28:22.360 and it's such

00:28:22.820 a shame

00:28:23.220 and a country

00:28:23.840 that can't

00:28:24.580 protect its borders

00:28:25.460 is a country

00:28:26.020 that can't really

00:28:26.620 protect much

00:28:27.380 of anything

00:28:27.980 we've got to

00:28:28.820 take a break

00:28:29.280 when we come

00:28:29.660 back more

00:28:30.240 of the

00:28:30.580 Andrew Lawton

00:28:31.040 show here

00:28:31.680 on True

00:28:32.000 North

00:28:32.280 you're tuned

00:28:34.940 in to the

00:28:35.440 Andrew Lawton

00:28:36.100 show

00:28:36.480 welcome back

00:28:39.420 to the

00:28:40.040 Andrew Lawton

00:28:40.640 show there's

00:28:41.160 been a huge

00:28:41.960 case going on

00:28:42.980 in British

00:28:43.460 Columbia for

00:28:44.160 the last

00:28:44.660 decade a

00:28:45.680 landmark case

00:28:46.500 that really

00:28:47.040 will determine

00:28:48.320 in many respects

00:28:49.380 what rights

00:28:50.240 patients have

00:28:51.060 to access

00:28:51.600 health care

00:28:52.220 outside of

00:28:53.440 going through

00:28:53.920 the government

00:28:54.360 monopoly

00:28:54.920 and this

00:28:55.600 case has been

00:28:56.240 just mired

00:28:56.940 in back and

00:28:58.220 forth

00:28:58.620 protracted

00:28:59.500 litigation

00:29:00.080 and now

00:29:01.060 another

00:29:01.840 question that's

00:29:03.360 being raised

00:29:03.960 about whether

00:29:04.500 Canadians have

00:29:05.340 a right to

00:29:06.120 learn how

00:29:07.400 much the

00:29:07.860 government has

00:29:08.440 spent fighting

00:29:09.340 this given

00:29:09.860 how long

00:29:10.340 it's taking

00:29:10.860 this is an

00:29:12.080 appeal that's

00:29:12.660 going before

00:29:13.380 the court

00:29:13.800 in British

00:29:14.260 Columbia

00:29:14.640 today

00:29:15.180 it's the

00:29:15.960 Canadian

00:29:16.320 Constitution

00:29:16.880 Foundation

00:29:17.700 that will be

00:29:18.160 making oral

00:29:19.140 arguments at

00:29:19.740 the BC

00:29:20.080 Court of

00:29:20.500 Appeal

00:29:20.860 the CCF's

00:29:22.160 Director of

00:29:22.920 Litigation

00:29:23.480 Christine Van

00:29:24.160 Gein joins

00:29:24.920 me on the

00:29:25.520 line now

00:29:25.980 Christine good

00:29:26.760 to talk to

00:29:27.180 you thanks

00:29:27.400 very much

00:29:27.800 for coming

00:29:28.280 on today

00:29:28.700 yeah thanks

00:29:29.760 for having

00:29:30.060 me on

00:29:30.460 so I want

00:29:31.380 to talk

00:29:31.720 about the

00:29:32.480 the oral

00:29:33.020 arguments that

00:29:33.600 are going to

00:29:33.840 be today and

00:29:34.480 also a bit

00:29:35.120 later on about

00:29:36.100 the broader

00:29:36.780 aspects of

00:29:37.860 this case

00:29:38.320 because I've

00:29:38.720 been covering

00:29:39.220 it for what

00:29:39.820 seems like

00:29:40.420 years now

00:29:41.120 which just

00:29:42.080 reminds us of

00:29:42.960 how long this

00:29:43.900 thing's been

00:29:44.340 going on

00:29:44.940 why is the

00:29:45.940 question of how

00:29:46.720 much the

00:29:47.060 government's been

00:29:47.660 spending

00:29:48.220 important

00:29:49.360 so the

00:29:51.560 Cambia litigation

00:29:52.280 has been going

00:29:52.740 on for over a

00:29:53.560 decade and

00:29:54.780 the cost of

00:29:56.300 litigation you

00:29:57.440 even a short

00:29:58.240 amount of

00:29:58.660 litigation is

00:29:59.720 expensive

00:30:00.180 if you're going

00:30:02.220 to be litigating

00:30:02.820 for 10 years

00:30:03.660 it's a fortune

00:30:05.280 and this fortune

00:30:07.280 is something that

00:30:07.940 the taxpayers and

00:30:09.060 patients of British

00:30:09.940 Columbia have

00:30:10.600 paid for

00:30:11.160 and essentially

00:30:12.220 they're paying

00:30:13.340 the government

00:30:14.180 the government is

00:30:14.980 using their money

00:30:15.680 to litigate

00:30:16.420 against patients

00:30:17.300 own rights

00:30:18.260 and that's the

00:30:19.420 right to access

00:30:20.460 timely health care

00:30:21.660 now the nub of the

00:30:23.080 question in

00:30:24.120 today's appeal

00:30:25.600 that's before the

00:30:26.460 British Columbia

00:30:27.020 Court of Appeal

00:30:27.740 is whether

00:30:29.540 the cost of

00:30:31.080 the litigation

00:30:32.000 the 10 years

00:30:32.760 of litigation

00:30:33.260 whether that cost

00:30:34.480 is subject

00:30:35.060 to solicitor

00:30:36.160 client privilege

00:30:36.960 and our argument

00:30:39.080 is that

00:30:39.760 to say that

00:30:40.720 one global

00:30:41.580 number

00:30:42.000 the total bill

00:30:42.940 of 10 years

00:30:43.580 of litigation

00:30:44.140 is privileged

00:30:45.860 stretches

00:30:46.840 the concept

00:30:48.060 of privilege

00:30:48.940 beyond its

00:30:49.940 reasonable

00:30:50.600 and natural

00:30:51.200 limits

00:30:51.780 yeah

00:30:53.200 and that's

00:30:53.740 actually not

00:30:54.360 all that surprising

00:30:55.380 to me

00:30:55.860 that you know

00:30:56.680 like it's not

00:30:57.440 it doesn't seem

00:30:57.980 all that radical

00:30:58.660 a concept

00:30:59.220 I know in other

00:30:59.880 cases

00:31:00.260 through access

00:31:01.260 to information

00:31:02.020 total bills

00:31:03.560 have been disclosed

00:31:04.400 by government

00:31:05.100 especially at the

00:31:06.080 federal level

00:31:06.620 I've seen this

00:31:07.220 so I don't know

00:31:07.840 why in BC

00:31:08.600 it would have to

00:31:09.260 be this state

00:31:09.940 secret

00:31:10.380 well I think

00:31:12.140 it's always

00:31:13.100 a fact

00:31:13.940 specific analysis

00:31:15.440 so there are

00:31:16.620 things that could

00:31:17.420 be disclosed

00:31:18.500 by the mere

00:31:20.440 disclosure

00:31:21.440 of a bill

00:31:22.180 for example

00:31:23.040 you know

00:31:24.900 the mere

00:31:25.380 disclosure

00:31:26.180 of a consultation

00:31:27.120 with a family

00:31:28.040 lawyer

00:31:28.500 could reveal

00:31:29.940 that you've been

00:31:30.580 consulting with a

00:31:31.380 family lawyer

00:31:31.940 and maybe

00:31:32.320 considering divorce

00:31:33.220 that's why

00:31:33.940 things like that

00:31:34.620 are subject

00:31:35.120 to solicitor

00:31:35.840 client privilege

00:31:36.820 but the total

00:31:39.160 number

00:31:39.760 of 10 years

00:31:40.840 of litigation

00:31:41.420 which we know

00:31:42.260 the government

00:31:42.700 has said

00:31:43.360 is a very

00:31:44.200 important case

00:31:44.900 to them

00:31:45.280 we know

00:31:45.900 they've called

00:31:46.520 many many

00:31:47.360 experts

00:31:47.860 it's been going

00:31:48.700 on for a long

00:31:49.560 time

00:31:50.020 and it's

00:31:50.700 extremely

00:31:51.200 hard fought

00:31:51.980 we know

00:31:52.840 that this

00:31:53.260 bill

00:31:53.620 is huge

00:31:54.920 we know

00:31:55.700 it's important

00:31:56.480 what possible

00:31:57.640 communications

00:31:58.540 could we

00:31:59.380 glean

00:32:00.120 from seeing

00:32:01.100 whether the

00:32:01.900 number the

00:32:02.420 government

00:32:02.780 has spent

00:32:03.420 is 8 million

00:32:04.180 dollars

00:32:04.580 or 20 million

00:32:05.340 dollars

00:32:05.720 we can't

00:32:06.740 get any

00:32:07.160 information

00:32:07.620 from that

00:32:08.220 and to

00:32:09.600 say that

00:32:10.000 that's

00:32:10.300 privileged

00:32:10.880 would mean

00:32:12.800 that what

00:32:13.400 is normally

00:32:14.120 you know

00:32:14.800 almost a

00:32:15.360 routine

00:32:15.780 disclosure

00:32:16.420 of documents

00:32:17.300 to the

00:32:17.680 public

00:32:18.140 through

00:32:19.240 access

00:32:19.560 to

00:32:19.740 information

00:32:20.180 legislation

00:32:20.980 that

00:32:21.620 routine

00:32:22.000 disclosure

00:32:22.520 in the

00:32:23.000 public

00:32:23.280 interest

00:32:23.720 could

00:32:24.180 stop

00:32:24.720 if this

00:32:25.240 new

00:32:25.420 precedent

00:32:25.800 is set

00:32:26.300 today

00:32:26.620 and

00:32:27.100 taxpayers

00:32:27.500 deserve

00:32:27.940 to know

00:32:28.480 how much

00:32:29.300 the government

00:32:29.580 is spending

00:32:29.960 when they're

00:32:30.360 litigating

00:32:30.820 against the

00:32:31.320 public's

00:32:31.700 own interest

00:32:32.280 not that

00:32:33.740 it matters

00:32:34.700 because obviously

00:32:35.380 the cost

00:32:35.960 is the cost

00:32:36.600 and whether

00:32:37.140 a lawyer

00:32:37.580 is in-house

00:32:38.240 or from

00:32:39.240 another firm

00:32:40.000 they still

00:32:40.360 have to be

00:32:40.700 paid

00:32:41.040 but do we

00:32:41.980 know if

00:32:42.200 the government

00:32:42.600 has been

00:32:42.880 relying exclusively

00:32:43.880 on its own

00:32:45.040 Justice Department

00:32:46.060 lawyers here

00:32:46.720 or have they

00:32:47.260 contracted out

00:32:48.160 to firms

00:32:48.940 in this

00:32:49.460 I can't answer

00:32:51.400 that question

00:32:51.820 I mean yesterday

00:32:52.460 was my first day

00:32:53.380 so I don't know

00:32:54.740 all of the ins

00:32:55.880 and outs

00:32:56.240 of 10 years

00:32:56.860 worth of litigation

00:32:57.640 but what I can

00:32:58.800 tell you is that

00:32:59.880 they have retained

00:33:00.860 a huge number

00:33:01.700 of experts

00:33:02.460 and there are a

00:33:03.140 huge number

00:33:03.540 of expert reports

00:33:04.660 and that there

00:33:05.480 have been

00:33:05.980 many many motions

00:33:07.440 and sort of

00:33:08.540 in between

00:33:09.180 what are called

00:33:09.660 interlocutory

00:33:10.700 motions

00:33:12.560 in the middle

00:33:13.780 of this litigation

00:33:14.520 it's been going

00:33:15.200 on for 10 years

00:33:15.980 and it's only

00:33:16.560 just concluded

00:33:17.340 its trial

00:33:18.180 yeah and speaking

00:33:19.460 in general terms

00:33:20.400 not in this case

00:33:21.180 I've seen

00:33:21.960 in other cases

00:33:23.360 that I've read

00:33:24.080 and looked at

00:33:24.940 how some of these

00:33:25.940 expert reports

00:33:26.740 can cost tens

00:33:27.620 of thousands

00:33:28.100 of dollars

00:33:28.660 to produce

00:33:29.320 you're paying

00:33:29.960 people a lot

00:33:30.840 of money

00:33:31.080 to do them

00:33:31.640 not to mention

00:33:32.220 travel

00:33:32.720 and all of that

00:33:33.540 so each individual

00:33:34.440 report is expensive

00:33:35.920 and if you're

00:33:36.360 talking about

00:33:36.820 multiple reports

00:33:37.700 that adds up

00:33:38.600 yeah absolutely

00:33:39.860 and these are

00:33:40.300 really high profile

00:33:41.100 people that have

00:33:42.160 written these

00:33:43.100 reports

00:33:43.780 and the trial

00:33:45.640 alone went on

00:33:46.400 for over 100 days

00:33:47.680 so we know

00:33:48.860 that it's expensive

00:33:49.760 and the real reason

00:33:51.440 the government

00:33:51.960 is objecting

00:33:53.160 in our opinion

00:33:54.180 is not because

00:33:55.280 they believe

00:33:56.100 that this number

00:33:56.900 is privileged

00:33:57.540 it's because

00:33:58.660 they believe

00:33:59.220 this number

00:33:59.760 is embarrassing

00:34:00.840 and it's

00:34:02.920 embarrassing

00:34:03.400 for politicians

00:34:04.280 when they spend

00:34:06.080 you know millions

00:34:07.560 and potentially

00:34:08.220 tens of millions

00:34:08.920 of taxpayer dollars

00:34:10.160 fighting against

00:34:10.980 the right to choose

00:34:12.020 how you're going

00:34:12.820 to access

00:34:13.160 health care

00:34:13.680 yeah and let's

00:34:14.880 actually talk about

00:34:15.720 that because

00:34:16.240 oftentimes these

00:34:17.340 cases tend to

00:34:18.720 detract attention

00:34:20.080 from the broader

00:34:20.840 questions that are

00:34:21.600 being asked

00:34:22.180 the question that

00:34:22.880 was the focus

00:34:23.900 of that 100-day

00:34:24.960 trial

00:34:25.400 what is at stake

00:34:26.940 in this case

00:34:27.700 so the Canby

00:34:29.860 litigation

00:34:30.420 that's the

00:34:31.400 the bigger

00:34:32.100 the bigger trial

00:34:33.360 the bigger case

00:34:34.220 it has been going

00:34:36.100 on for a long time

00:34:36.880 as I said

00:34:37.500 the question is

00:34:38.560 essentially

00:34:39.120 does the government

00:34:40.740 have a right

00:34:41.480 to restrict

00:34:42.260 patients from

00:34:43.880 buying private

00:34:44.700 health insurance

00:34:45.380 and restrict

00:34:46.540 doctors from

00:34:48.880 practicing in

00:34:49.860 both private

00:34:50.660 and government

00:34:52.720 run health care

00:34:53.720 institutions

00:34:54.260 so I'm not sure

00:34:56.140 if your listeners

00:34:57.240 would be aware

00:34:58.940 or not

00:34:59.520 but there have

00:35:00.400 been private

00:35:01.040 surgical clinics

00:35:02.040 operating in

00:35:03.180 British Columbia

00:35:03.780 without problem

00:35:04.640 for more than

00:35:05.800 20 years

00:35:06.520 and those clinics

00:35:08.720 exist in part

00:35:10.500 to give priority

00:35:11.580 access to people

00:35:12.780 who are injured

00:35:13.860 in the workplace

00:35:14.540 and are given

00:35:15.620 special treatment

00:35:16.540 through what would

00:35:17.860 be British Columbia's

00:35:19.280 WSIB

00:35:20.360 their equivalent

00:35:20.920 of WSIB

00:35:22.120 and the physicians

00:35:24.880 who run those clinics

00:35:25.700 also offer

00:35:26.880 surgical procedures

00:35:27.960 to patients

00:35:29.220 who would like

00:35:30.080 to pay for their

00:35:30.980 surgery

00:35:31.360 because you know

00:35:32.740 they might not

00:35:33.320 want to wait

00:35:33.840 for six months

00:35:35.620 nine months

00:35:36.600 two years

00:35:37.920 sometimes four

00:35:39.200 to five years

00:35:40.100 for certain types

00:35:41.080 of procedures

00:35:41.940 and it's our

00:35:44.200 position

00:35:44.720 and it's the

00:35:46.920 plaintiff patient

00:35:47.800 plaintiff's position

00:35:48.820 in the Cambia litigation

00:35:50.020 that you have

00:35:51.880 a charter right

00:35:52.780 to access health care

00:35:54.200 you have a charter

00:35:54.880 right to life

00:35:55.860 liberty and security

00:35:56.860 of person

00:35:57.440 and if the government

00:35:58.420 is going to say

00:35:59.200 that you are only

00:36:00.800 able to access

00:36:01.580 health care

00:36:02.220 through government

00:36:03.620 channels

00:36:04.620 those channels

00:36:05.820 those channels

00:36:05.840 are not working

00:36:06.820 and they're leaving

00:36:07.700 patients in pain

00:36:09.140 and sick

00:36:10.060 and in some cases

00:36:11.440 permanently disabled 1.00

00:36:13.020 or even dying

00:36:14.260 on wait lists

00:36:15.260 is the case

00:36:16.540 just about a patient's

00:36:18.040 right to access

00:36:18.820 the care

00:36:19.380 or also a doctor's

00:36:21.700 right to provide it

00:36:22.660 or I mean

00:36:23.460 does it have to be

00:36:24.060 an either or

00:36:24.600 or are both

00:36:25.080 really being litigated

00:36:26.100 really what the

00:36:28.060 specific question

00:36:29.340 being asked

00:36:30.140 is

00:36:30.560 is there a right

00:36:32.060 for private

00:36:34.080 medical insurance

00:36:35.180 and is there

00:36:36.040 a

00:36:36.680 or should

00:36:37.740 should the prohibition

00:36:39.080 on private medical

00:36:40.140 insurance be struck down

00:36:41.380 and should the

00:36:42.340 prohibition

00:36:43.020 on doctors

00:36:43.900 having what's called

00:36:45.660 dual practice

00:36:46.520 which is

00:36:47.180 practicing in private

00:36:48.660 clinics and in

00:36:49.620 the public system

00:36:50.640 should that prohibition

00:36:51.820 be struck down

00:36:53.880 and we argue

00:36:55.180 that both

00:36:55.640 should be struck down

00:36:56.480 and I mean

00:36:57.580 I would assume

00:36:58.140 that something

00:36:58.540 of this nature

00:36:59.200 is destined

00:37:00.140 to go to the

00:37:01.140 Canadian Supreme

00:37:02.420 Court anyway

00:37:03.200 but obviously

00:37:03.900 it has to go

00:37:04.540 through at the

00:37:05.540 provincial level

00:37:06.240 before it gets there

00:37:07.500 do we have much

00:37:09.000 or any precedent

00:37:10.080 elsewhere in Canada

00:37:11.100 on these questions

00:37:12.400 on basically

00:37:13.480 the public health

00:37:14.240 care monopoly

00:37:14.940 yeah so there's

00:37:16.420 actually a very

00:37:16.980 famous precedent

00:37:18.000 from Quebec

00:37:18.680 in a case

00:37:19.360 about 15 years

00:37:20.280 ago called

00:37:21.380 Chioli

00:37:21.880 and in Chioli

00:37:23.280 the government

00:37:23.980 found that

00:37:25.240 the Quebec

00:37:26.060 prohibition

00:37:26.880 on private

00:37:27.840 insurance

00:37:28.600 was violating

00:37:30.440 patients rights

00:37:31.740 to life

00:37:32.280 liberty

00:37:32.560 and security

00:37:33.040 person under

00:37:33.720 section 7

00:37:34.360 because it was

00:37:34.980 leaving many

00:37:35.620 patients languishing

00:37:36.580 on these

00:37:37.000 wait lists

00:37:37.520 so the question

00:37:39.160 before the

00:37:40.040 British Columbia

00:37:40.920 courts

00:37:41.460 is similar

00:37:42.500 we just have

00:37:44.040 that added

00:37:44.920 prohibition

00:37:46.140 on the dual

00:37:46.900 practice

00:37:47.400 and really

00:37:49.120 the dual

00:37:49.560 practice

00:37:50.260 prohibition

00:37:51.480 it's a

00:37:52.880 it's a

00:37:53.280 practical

00:37:53.760 consequence

00:37:54.440 if a doctor

00:37:55.460 is prohibited

00:37:56.120 from operating

00:37:57.000 in a private

00:37:57.860 clinic

00:37:58.240 because they

00:38:00.180 are operating

00:38:00.900 they would

00:38:01.220 like to have

00:38:01.740 public

00:38:02.400 hospital

00:38:03.360 surgical care

00:38:04.260 they really

00:38:05.300 can't survive

00:38:06.560 only operating

00:38:07.440 in private

00:38:08.340 clinics

00:38:08.800 doctors need

00:38:09.880 hospital access

00:38:10.940 and they

00:38:12.580 need that

00:38:13.480 and it's also

00:38:14.040 part of the

00:38:15.180 way many

00:38:15.600 physicians view

00:38:16.580 their public

00:38:18.160 role is to

00:38:19.280 provide access

00:38:20.020 in the public

00:38:20.500 system as well

00:38:21.200 and as I

00:38:21.980 understand it

00:38:22.680 with doctors

00:38:23.760 like for example

00:38:24.480 at the

00:38:24.940 Canby Center

00:38:25.500 they've got

00:38:25.980 these ORs

00:38:26.860 and you

00:38:27.700 know you've

00:38:28.000 got a doctor

00:38:28.540 that isn't

00:38:29.380 serving a

00:38:30.420 workplace injury

00:38:31.520 at that

00:38:31.860 particular time

00:38:32.660 they're not

00:38:33.640 taking anything

00:38:34.620 away from the

00:38:35.280 public system

00:38:35.920 by adding a

00:38:37.100 private service

00:38:37.860 on top of

00:38:38.560 the work

00:38:39.200 they're already

00:38:39.560 doing

00:38:39.900 yeah absolutely

00:38:41.640 and I think

00:38:42.240 one of the

00:38:42.700 things a lot

00:38:43.200 of people

00:38:43.520 don't know

00:38:44.100 is that many

00:38:44.720 physicians

00:38:45.240 who do

00:38:45.960 operate in

00:38:46.620 the public

00:38:47.000 system

00:38:47.420 don't get

00:38:48.420 the number

00:38:48.840 of operating

00:38:49.860 room days

00:38:50.660 that they

00:38:51.380 would like

00:38:52.220 yeah the

00:38:53.060 care is

00:38:53.540 rationed

00:38:54.140 that's a

00:38:54.540 huge problem

00:38:55.140 especially in

00:38:55.720 Ontario

00:38:56.120 so we have

00:38:57.300 some physicians

00:38:57.980 who would like

00:38:58.660 to operate

00:38:59.480 you know

00:39:00.060 100 days

00:39:01.080 a year

00:39:01.860 and they are

00:39:02.620 given 20

00:39:03.360 operating days

00:39:04.400 and these

00:39:04.760 are some

00:39:05.200 of these

00:39:05.440 are physicians

00:39:05.980 who have

00:39:06.960 really small

00:39:08.440 subspecialties

00:39:09.400 and four-year

00:39:10.060 wait lists

00:39:10.720 and if

00:39:11.980 if you

00:39:13.160 would like

00:39:14.160 and the

00:39:14.720 patients aren't

00:39:15.440 wealthy

00:39:15.780 the patients

00:39:16.340 just really

00:39:17.260 feel desperately

00:39:18.600 that they need

00:39:19.400 these surgeries

00:39:20.360 and that's

00:39:20.880 why they're

00:39:21.400 willing to

00:39:22.040 pay in

00:39:23.360 order to

00:39:23.700 access care

00:39:24.400 that the

00:39:24.780 government

00:39:25.020 is not

00:39:25.340 providing

00:39:25.800 them

00:39:26.080 and you

00:39:26.660 can't tell

00:39:27.260 a patient

00:39:27.700 who's

00:39:28.020 suffering

00:39:28.340 you need

00:39:28.740 to continue

00:39:29.340 to suffer

00:39:29.960 because of

00:39:30.900 some type

00:39:31.640 of political

00:39:32.280 dogma

00:39:32.920 about our

00:39:33.400 view of the

00:39:33.880 public health

00:39:34.320 care system

00:39:34.880 in Canada

00:39:35.360 yeah that's

00:39:36.660 a very good

00:39:37.220 way of putting

00:39:38.020 it because

00:39:38.420 in a lot of

00:39:38.920 cases I

00:39:39.440 find that

00:39:40.080 the that

00:39:40.780 ironclad grip

00:39:41.780 on the

00:39:42.260 public health

00:39:42.820 care monopoly

00:39:43.560 is really

00:39:44.320 preserving this

00:39:45.240 ideal more

00:39:46.560 than it's

00:39:46.960 preserving any

00:39:47.660 functional

00:39:48.240 effect

00:39:48.900 yeah and

00:39:50.080 no one is

00:39:51.060 arguing that

00:39:52.080 there should

00:39:52.720 be a

00:39:54.120 dismantling of

00:39:55.920 the public

00:39:56.340 system

00:39:56.780 we're just

00:39:57.360 arguing that

00:39:58.620 and we're

00:39:59.500 just supporting

00:40:00.360 this litigation

00:40:00.920 we're not

00:40:01.320 actually an

00:40:02.180 intervener

00:40:02.800 plaintiff

00:40:03.900 we're just

00:40:04.620 supporting this

00:40:05.300 particular piece

00:40:06.460 of litigation

00:40:06.960 everyone supports

00:40:09.160 the public

00:40:09.580 system and wants

00:40:10.280 the public

00:40:10.760 system to

00:40:11.260 remain in

00:40:11.660 place

00:40:11.900 what we're

00:40:12.240 saying is

00:40:12.780 that clinics

00:40:13.620 that have

00:40:13.940 existed for

00:40:14.560 20 years

00:40:15.240 that are

00:40:15.980 helping patients

00:40:16.780 access care

00:40:17.600 instead of

00:40:18.180 waiting on

00:40:18.580 wait lists

00:40:19.100 and give

00:40:19.840 physicians

00:40:20.340 the opportunity

00:40:21.460 to use

00:40:22.200 their time

00:40:22.820 in a way

00:40:23.260 that helps

00:40:23.680 the public

00:40:24.140 instead of

00:40:24.720 you know

00:40:25.000 just just

00:40:26.540 sitting at

00:40:27.520 home or

00:40:27.860 doing more

00:40:28.420 consultations

00:40:29.200 for patients

00:40:29.760 they can't

00:40:30.240 operate on

00:40:30.880 you know

00:40:31.340 that's in

00:40:32.360 the public

00:40:32.740 interest

00:40:33.240 that protects

00:40:34.380 people's

00:40:35.240 protection for

00:40:36.740 their life

00:40:37.300 liberty and

00:40:37.720 security of

00:40:38.200 person

00:40:38.580 Canadian

00:40:39.840 Constitution

00:40:40.340 Foundation

00:40:41.080 litigation

00:40:41.620 director

00:40:42.220 Christine

00:40:42.620 Van Gein

00:40:43.240 joining me

00:40:43.820 on the line

00:40:44.380 Christine

00:40:44.700 great to talk

00:40:45.520 to you again

00:40:45.800 thanks very much

00:40:46.380 for coming

00:40:46.760 on

00:40:47.040 thanks

00:40:47.620 happy to

00:40:48.360 talk to

00:40:48.660 you anytime

00:40:49.020 Andrew

00:40:49.360 that does

00:40:50.580 it for us

00:40:51.380 for today

00:40:51.920 my thanks

00:40:52.380 to Christine

00:40:52.880 Van Gein

00:40:53.320 and all of

00:40:53.700 you for

00:40:54.140 tuning into

00:40:54.680 the show

00:40:55.020 we'll be

00:40:55.600 back next

00:40:56.300 week with

00:40:56.720 more of

00:40:57.280 Canada's

00:40:57.800 most irreverent

00:40:58.760 talk show

00:40:59.200 this is the

00:41:00.000 Andrew Lawton

00:41:00.440 show here

00:41:01.020 on True

00:41:01.320 North

00:41:01.600 thanks for

00:41:02.380 listening to

00:41:02.860 the Andrew

00:41:03.260 Lawton

00:41:03.560 show

00:41:03.860 support the

00:41:04.600 program by

00:41:05.120 donating to

00:41:05.700 True

00:41:05.900 North at

00:41:06.400 www.tnc.news

00:41:09.320 www.tnc.news

Juno News - June 24, 2020

Fighting Racism With Racism

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