Juno News - June 24, 2020


Fighting Racism With Racism


Episode Stats

Length

41 minutes

Words per Minute

165.14224

Word Count

6,879

Sentence Count

182

Misogynist Sentences

4

Hate Speech Sentences

12


Summary

In the name of purging itself of systemic racism, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation has introduced a new racial litmus test into its job postings. And it's not just a test, it's a racial quota, which means that half of all new hires for executive and senior management positions will be Indigenous, visible minorities and people with disabilities.


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.
00:00:06.740 This is the Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.
00:00:12.860 Coming up, racial hiring at CBC, a war criminal gunned down in Canada,
00:00:18.040 and why the government doesn't want you to know how much it's spending to fight against your rights.
00:00:24.580 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.
00:00:31.000 Hi everyone, welcome to another edition of the Andrew Lawton Show,
00:00:34.960 Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show here on True North.
00:00:37.920 It's great to have you aboard this program as we talk about the latest development in the race wars.
00:00:45.100 We talk all the time now, everyone, the media, corporate world, academics,
00:00:49.380 everyone's talking about how we need to purge ourselves of unconscious bias.
00:00:53.860 We need to eradicate systemic racism.
00:00:56.040 We have to purge anything within our institutions that fosters racism.
00:01:02.380 But then CBC comes along, and in the name of doing that,
00:01:06.240 in the name of purging itself of systemic racism,
00:01:09.160 actually puts a new racial litmus test into its job postings.
00:01:13.880 This is a press release from the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, from CBC,
00:01:20.080 as part of its so-called Working Group on Racism and Bias in Canada's state broadcaster.
00:01:26.600 This is the broadcaster that gets $1.3 billion of your taxpayer money,
00:01:31.040 which means the decisions that CBC makes are not just about some private company deciding a path forward,
00:01:37.880 but basically what the government is doing,
00:01:40.580 what a group that is backed by and exists only because of the government is doing.
00:01:45.760 And what CBC's group has come up with is a list of promises, basically,
00:01:50.520 or commitments or quota that will guide the CBC moving forward.
00:01:55.980 And one of these is incredibly, incredibly absurd.
00:02:00.680 This is a direct quote.
00:02:02.320 Half of all new hires for executive and senior management positions
00:02:05.980 will be Indigenous people, visible minorities, or people with disabilities,
00:02:11.080 and retention and promotion rates for people from these three groups will be doubled.
00:02:18.240 So if they look at people within these groups and find this is the rate at which they're getting promoted,
00:02:23.940 they have to double that rate,
00:02:26.340 which means that promotions are all of a sudden going to be racially motivated.
00:02:32.080 And also the fact that they're only going to be hiring people in senior roles
00:02:36.400 if they are half of them in these groups that were just laid out.
00:02:41.500 So that's part of it.
00:02:42.660 And then also you look further down
00:02:44.180 and they're going to make unconscious bias training mandatory for people,
00:02:48.740 leading people, including senior management,
00:02:50.920 and available on demand to any employee.
00:02:54.000 Now, I'm going to get to the unconscious bias part a bit later on,
00:02:57.040 but I want to focus on this initial diversity-based hiring and diversity-based promotion.
00:03:03.740 You see, when I first ran through this, I had missed the promotion part
00:03:07.960 because I was just so aghast at the first bullet point there
00:03:11.100 that half of new hires for these executive positions
00:03:13.560 will be Indigenous, visible minorities, or people with disabilities.
00:03:18.120 And there are a few different parts of this.
00:03:20.900 And I want to read the rationale that CBC has provided here
00:03:24.020 because this came in a press release that hasn't gotten much media attention.
00:03:28.820 I tweeted it out.
00:03:29.940 I know there were a couple of articles about it.
00:03:32.200 But then a lot of people started getting nasty with me
00:03:36.080 because they thought that I was announcing the policy.
00:03:38.400 They thought that I was a CBC personality,
00:03:42.060 which is pretty much the most offensive thing anyone's ever thought about me.
00:03:46.240 But there was a statement from Catherine Tate,
00:03:49.020 who's the president and CEO of CBC Radio Canada.
00:03:54.020 She says,
00:03:54.360 We are committed to combating racism in all its forms,
00:04:05.420 to removing structural barriers and practices that result in discrimination
00:04:09.920 at CBC Radio Canada,
00:04:12.140 and to improve our workplace culture in tangible, concrete ways.
00:04:16.580 We know these issues aren't new.
00:04:19.140 People have been raising concerns for a long time,
00:04:21.460 and our responses haven't worked fast enough.
00:04:24.180 So we're going to tackle things differently
00:04:26.060 and intensify the transformation of our organization
00:04:29.140 so that we are truly inclusive and representative of Contemporary Canada.
00:04:33.980 Now, I mean, there's a lot of the standard mumbo-jumbo corporate speak in there
00:04:37.760 that we can all do better.
00:04:38.980 It's very Trudopian.
00:04:40.500 We know that racism exists.
00:04:42.200 Every institution is affected by it, including CBC.
00:04:45.120 But when they say that they're combating racism in all its forms,
00:04:50.560 the answer to that is not implementing a racial litmus test,
00:04:54.760 which is a flawed idea for two reasons.
00:04:57.460 Number one, merit-based hiring is, if you're an organization,
00:05:01.860 the top priority because you want to make sure that the people you're promoting,
00:05:05.120 the people you're hiring are good at their jobs.
00:05:07.120 This is not at all to say that people who are visible minorities
00:05:10.340 or people with disabilities are not good at their jobs.
00:05:13.380 But it's to say that if you make competence your top priority,
00:05:17.560 nothing else factors in.
00:05:19.540 Nothing else factors in.
00:05:20.680 If you're making competence your number one priority,
00:05:23.360 the other things should not matter at all.
00:05:26.520 Now, if you are talking about having a range of backgrounds,
00:05:30.840 I think there is an approach there that would be valuable,
00:05:33.980 but not ethnic backgrounds, more outlook.
00:05:36.480 Hey, someone who grew up in a city is already on your team
00:05:39.720 and you have a new job.
00:05:40.760 Here's someone who grew up in rural Canada.
00:05:42.780 Having an indigenous perspective can be valuable,
00:05:45.100 especially when it comes to programming or content.
00:05:47.900 But when you are talking about executive senior management positions,
00:05:52.120 they're not talking about a diversity of opinions here.
00:05:55.000 They're not talking about a range of backgrounds
00:05:57.860 to make sure that everyone doesn't think the same way.
00:06:00.340 They're talking about quotas.
00:06:02.240 And the reason you know that is because they are talking about visible minorities.
00:06:07.420 If it was just about, we want to make sure that, you know,
00:06:11.440 we're serving Canada by having people of all different backgrounds and types in our team,
00:06:16.660 it wouldn't matter if you were a visible minority or not.
00:06:20.460 I mean, someone who's Jewish is part of a group
00:06:22.880 that is still the number one targeted group of hate crimes in Canada,
00:06:27.340 anti-Semitic hate crimes and anti-Semitic hateful graffiti and vandalism,
00:06:32.120 more than any other group.
00:06:33.300 But a lot of Jewish people would not qualify for this
00:06:37.000 because they are not visible minorities.
00:06:39.120 It was actually a Jewish friend of mine who pointed this out yesterday
00:06:43.400 when this whole thing came out.
00:06:45.500 So you have to be a visible minority.
00:06:48.020 You can't just be an invisible minority.
00:06:50.080 And there's now a racial litmus test.
00:06:52.640 So to be at CBC, you have a better chance of getting hired,
00:06:56.780 or if you are a minority, then not,
00:06:59.200 because CBC has instituted a quota system.
00:07:03.560 And the whole point here that I think needs to be understood,
00:07:06.400 when they say half, that is a quota.
00:07:09.300 That is not, we just want to keep an eye out and be mindful.
00:07:12.120 That is a measurable target.
00:07:14.500 It's quantifiable, which may be great for ensuring that they've done their part
00:07:18.760 in a couple of years by the time this is supposed to be in effect.
00:07:21.760 But it is, in fact, a quota system.
00:07:24.400 And when they say they're doing it by 2021, 2022,
00:07:28.360 I find that to be a bit hilarious too.
00:07:30.760 If you're going to put a quota in and you say that you're going to prioritize
00:07:33.560 these sorts of racial and ethnic metrics for hiring,
00:07:37.460 why not put it in now?
00:07:39.000 Why not say, all right, the next person we hire, we're starting this up.
00:07:42.500 And, you know, it's a coin toss, whether we're up for,
00:07:44.920 maybe they'll do it like U.S. senators,
00:07:46.580 where, you know, there are two senators in each state,
00:07:49.680 the senior senator and the junior senator.
00:07:51.800 And every six years, well, one of them is up for election
00:07:55.280 at the time that the other one isn't.
00:07:57.660 So what they can do is then say, oh, no, it's up for,
00:08:00.940 we have to do a minority hire now.
00:08:02.400 Nope, nope, we're in non-minority hire again.
00:08:05.660 And that's the inherent absurdity of this.
00:08:08.400 But when you talk about retention and promotion rates,
00:08:12.380 now this is hugely, hugely concerning.
00:08:15.260 And they don't say whether these retention and promotion rates
00:08:18.160 are referring to just people in those executive
00:08:21.400 and senior management positions, or if it's across the board.
00:08:25.060 If it's across the board, this now means that, you know,
00:08:29.320 Joe Producer or Jane Producer or Joe Anchor, Jane Anchor,
00:08:34.880 they are at a higher likelihood of getting promoted
00:08:38.360 if they are a minority,
00:08:40.280 because CBC has, again, instituted this test
00:08:44.000 that means these groups have to be in a demonstrable
00:08:47.300 and quantifiable way hired and promoted more frequently.
00:08:52.720 And this is something that for a lot of people,
00:08:56.440 if you accept the narrative that CBC
00:08:58.940 is a systemically racist institution,
00:09:01.180 by the way, CBC, which had Gian Gomeschi,
00:09:04.820 I mean, forget about Gian Gomeschi's later years,
00:09:07.420 but Gian Gomeschi on, who was an Iranian-Canadian
00:09:10.020 in a flagship show.
00:09:11.140 So they have their anchor chairs of The National,
00:09:14.200 which were initially involving an Asian man
00:09:17.040 and a South Asian man.
00:09:18.740 You have people from many minority backgrounds
00:09:21.620 across the board in positions at CBC.
00:09:23.960 So there is representation.
00:09:27.020 And you look at that CBC Kids recap show
00:09:29.820 that I talked about last week,
00:09:31.200 where they were slamming J.K. Rowling again.
00:09:34.060 You had three co-hosts on that.
00:09:35.780 One was black and two were Asian.
00:09:38.440 So there is representation on air,
00:09:41.760 whether there is behind the scenes or not,
00:09:43.460 I don't know.
00:09:44.260 I don't spend a lot of time, gratefully,
00:09:46.500 wandering the corporate halls of CBC on Front Street.
00:09:50.520 But to say that this is a racist organization,
00:09:53.660 when they have already gone out of their way,
00:09:56.500 by their own admission,
00:09:57.720 to hire non-white people to be the face of CBC,
00:10:01.340 and this was that CBC Kids posting,
00:10:04.040 I know I've mentioned it the last couple of shows,
00:10:05.640 but it was very telling when they were hiring for a job
00:10:08.420 and they said no Caucasians allowed,
00:10:10.460 they eventually apologized for that when they got caught.
00:10:14.400 But that was the approach.
00:10:15.960 So to say that CBC is racist
00:10:18.680 is, I think, a bit interesting
00:10:21.380 because they've already been doing a lot of these concerns.
00:10:24.580 I know job postings at CBC,
00:10:26.340 like most other corporate institutions
00:10:28.540 and government institutions in Canada,
00:10:30.600 always allow you to voluntarily tick off that box
00:10:34.260 when you're applying that says you are a visible minority,
00:10:38.200 a person with disability, et cetera.
00:10:40.080 This is just standard practice.
00:10:42.000 And in some cases,
00:10:42.900 they even ask you about sexual orientation in these things.
00:10:46.020 I don't know if CBC does,
00:10:48.580 but other institutions do,
00:10:50.360 including there was one job a little while ago
00:10:52.880 that someone flagged for me at the University of Toronto,
00:10:55.580 not because they wanted me to apply for it.
00:10:57.640 They just wanted me to see that this is what U of T was asking.
00:11:01.200 And I'm like, well, wait,
00:11:01.800 why does it matter if they know if you're gay or bisexual or not,
00:11:05.260 if you're applying for a job in the IT department
00:11:08.620 or whatever it was?
00:11:10.840 So all of this is to say
00:11:12.880 that CBC has now made its environment
00:11:16.400 a lot more race-conscious and race-focused
00:11:19.360 by brazenly and overtly making hiring decisions
00:11:23.540 predicated at least in part on race.
00:11:26.000 And I want to go through a lot of the conversations
00:11:28.160 that tend to happen when this topic comes up.
00:11:31.120 It's affirmative action on steroids here,
00:11:33.680 because I say, okay,
00:11:35.540 you need to make merit the first priority.
00:11:38.240 And then someone else responds,
00:11:40.060 oh, are you saying that visible minorities
00:11:42.300 aren't worthy of being hired
00:11:43.980 and don't have the skill sets?
00:11:45.120 To which I say, no,
00:11:46.160 you're being ridiculous and you're race-baiting.
00:11:48.320 What I'm saying is that
00:11:49.400 if you make merit your top focus,
00:11:51.360 you don't need to incorporate other things.
00:11:54.620 And that's where the conversation
00:11:56.600 tends to go off the rails.
00:11:58.000 It's not to say that there aren't minorities
00:12:01.180 that are entirely capable
00:12:02.940 and are the best candidate.
00:12:04.220 And that's the whole point of equality,
00:12:06.660 equality of opportunity
00:12:07.880 rather than equality of outcome.
00:12:11.180 But if we go down this road,
00:12:14.040 the people who suffer the most in this situation
00:12:16.840 are the visible minorities
00:12:18.560 who are incredibly great at their jobs,
00:12:21.000 rise through the ranks,
00:12:22.220 and then you breed resentment
00:12:23.760 against these people
00:12:25.060 because someone who doesn't get the promotion,
00:12:27.120 who might just be a terrible employee
00:12:29.080 and didn't deserve it,
00:12:29.940 but happens to be a white male,
00:12:31.580 is looking and saying,
00:12:32.560 huh, I wonder if they only got promoted
00:12:34.640 because of this policy
00:12:36.000 that CBC has put in place
00:12:37.500 vowing to double the promotion rates
00:12:40.640 for people in these groups.
00:12:43.520 So it calls into question
00:12:46.240 anyone's success at CBC
00:12:48.220 who happens to be in one of these groups,
00:12:50.920 which means it's not just about ensuring
00:12:52.940 that you are representative
00:12:54.160 of the population you serve.
00:12:56.260 It's about a lot more than that.
00:12:58.440 It's about reprogramming the way people think,
00:13:01.340 which is why unconscious bias training,
00:13:03.680 the other part of this announcement,
00:13:05.540 is something that I need to talk about
00:13:07.560 for a few moments here
00:13:08.560 because they're making it mandatory
00:13:10.400 for people that are in leadership roles.
00:13:12.800 I don't know,
00:13:13.420 senior management is a big group at CBC.
00:13:15.740 I don't know where they're drawing the line
00:13:17.360 of what senior is
00:13:18.520 versus what just supervisory is,
00:13:21.840 but they're committing better resources,
00:13:24.240 they say,
00:13:24.820 to retain and identify
00:13:27.420 internal and external candidates
00:13:30.120 from these groups.
00:13:31.120 But the unconscious bias
00:13:32.820 is also going to influence reporting
00:13:35.420 as well as the focus
00:13:37.320 of the company itself,
00:13:38.840 of CBC.
00:13:39.760 But I was reading up about this
00:13:41.860 because I've never actually
00:13:42.780 had to go through this
00:13:43.900 corporate diversity stuff oddly.
00:13:46.320 I worked for a giant media company,
00:13:48.220 but somehow I managed to
00:13:50.300 not have to do anything like this.
00:13:52.320 I've had to do like copyright law training
00:13:54.280 and stuff like that,
00:13:55.100 but never unconscious bias training.
00:13:58.100 And the thing was,
00:13:58.960 I was reading it
00:13:59.960 and I was fascinated by the fact
00:14:01.620 that most of the criticisms of it
00:14:03.240 that I found
00:14:03.980 were not just from visible minorities,
00:14:07.360 but were from visible minorities
00:14:09.280 who like work in the space
00:14:10.740 of diversity and equity and equality.
00:14:12.900 So very much social justice minded,
00:14:15.660 visible minority people
00:14:17.160 were criticizing
00:14:18.620 unconscious bias training
00:14:20.280 because they say
00:14:21.320 it doesn't actually do anything.
00:14:22.820 It says there's no idea,
00:14:25.240 there's no research,
00:14:26.360 there's no evidence
00:14:27.000 to suggest that anything
00:14:28.300 along this line
00:14:30.080 reduces discrimination,
00:14:32.300 reduces racism,
00:14:33.260 or even contributes to anything
00:14:35.700 of substance moving forward.
00:14:38.480 And I want to read a couple of these
00:14:39.940 because one is from Bloomberg
00:14:41.860 where a writer,
00:14:43.600 Tomas Chamorro-Promuzic,
00:14:45.360 I'm butchering the name
00:14:46.880 and I apologize for that,
00:14:48.520 says, talks about Google,
00:14:50.320 Papa John's, Starbucks,
00:14:51.620 all companies that have done
00:14:52.840 implicit bias training.
00:14:54.860 And they say,
00:14:55.600 there is no convincing
00:14:57.460 scientific evidence
00:14:58.900 that it works.
00:14:59.940 In fact,
00:15:00.400 much of the academic evidence
00:15:01.820 on implicit bias interventions
00:15:03.560 highlights their weakness
00:15:05.000 as a method
00:15:05.760 for boosting diversity
00:15:07.040 and inclusion.
00:15:08.720 Instructions to suppress stereotypes
00:15:10.640 often have the opposite effect
00:15:12.720 and prejudice reduction programs
00:15:14.780 are much more effective
00:15:16.760 when people are already
00:15:17.620 open-minded,
00:15:18.520 altruistic,
00:15:19.280 and concerned
00:15:20.260 about their prejudices
00:15:21.560 to begin with.
00:15:22.620 And one of the papers
00:15:25.040 that's cited here
00:15:26.020 is an academic paper
00:15:27.320 that looks at this
00:15:28.040 called
00:15:28.520 Pointless Diversity Training,
00:15:30.440 Unconscious Bias,
00:15:31.860 New Racism,
00:15:32.920 and Agency.
00:15:33.900 So the point here
00:15:34.960 is that the type of people
00:15:35.860 that are going to
00:15:36.720 take these programs seriously
00:15:38.320 are already doing
00:15:39.800 what they can
00:15:40.440 to combat prejudices
00:15:41.760 and stereotypes.
00:15:42.820 It does what I mentioned earlier
00:15:44.360 with the quotas,
00:15:45.400 whereas it turns people
00:15:46.360 against those
00:15:47.580 that they're supposed to be
00:15:48.740 protecting against bias towards.
00:15:51.200 And it just doesn't
00:15:53.100 actually solve
00:15:54.000 the underlying problems.
00:15:56.280 And then I looked at
00:15:57.300 why that is
00:15:58.900 in a little bit more detail.
00:16:00.780 And there were two pieces
00:16:02.460 actually that came up.
00:16:03.540 One of them I liked,
00:16:04.960 Don't Do Unconscious Bias Training.
00:16:07.520 Now this is from a group
00:16:08.480 called Tidal Equality,
00:16:10.560 which is a strategy firm
00:16:12.320 at the intersection
00:16:13.320 of social change
00:16:14.780 and diversity and inclusion.
00:16:16.840 So this is not from
00:16:17.860 like a right-wing
00:16:19.340 hate-monger site,
00:16:20.640 as some of the left would say.
00:16:22.100 This is from a group
00:16:23.580 that has a vested interest
00:16:24.940 in tidal equality,
00:16:26.660 as its name is.
00:16:27.380 So like a tidal wave
00:16:28.660 of social change
00:16:29.540 and diversity and inclusion.
00:16:31.620 And they say
00:16:32.380 it's basically for companies
00:16:34.780 to tick the box
00:16:36.460 of unconscious bias training.
00:16:38.600 They say these things
00:16:39.740 are risk mitigation
00:16:40.900 and compliance.
00:16:41.800 They aren't there
00:16:42.460 for people who experience
00:16:43.960 and understand discrimination,
00:16:45.400 but corporate lawyers.
00:16:46.520 They say it doesn't work.
00:16:48.320 It never includes
00:16:49.320 the things that do work
00:16:51.160 and ultimately
00:16:52.360 all they've done
00:16:53.600 is produce this thing
00:16:55.140 that has no evidence anywhere
00:16:57.900 that the awareness,
00:16:59.440 which is all they're really doing,
00:17:00.480 is leading to behavioral change.
00:17:02.300 And Starbucks was hit for this
00:17:03.900 a couple of years ago
00:17:04.880 when Starbucks decided
00:17:06.000 to shut down
00:17:07.020 all of its stores.
00:17:07.920 I don't know if it was
00:17:08.540 worldwide or just in the US.
00:17:10.060 I think Canada was included.
00:17:12.280 All of its stores
00:17:12.960 so that its employees
00:17:13.860 could do a day-long seminar
00:17:15.520 of unconscious bias training.
00:17:18.800 And the reason for this
00:17:19.660 was that two black
00:17:21.360 Starbucks patrons
00:17:22.260 had been,
00:17:23.240 were just minding
00:17:24.460 their own business
00:17:24.980 and the cops had been
00:17:25.760 called on them
00:17:26.400 in Seattle,
00:17:27.320 I think it was.
00:17:28.540 And this happened
00:17:29.880 and the Starbucks store
00:17:30.980 shut down.
00:17:31.980 Starbucks surrenders
00:17:33.200 what I would have to assume
00:17:34.360 is millions of dollars
00:17:35.280 in profits for a day
00:17:36.380 because they want
00:17:36.960 to take this seriously.
00:17:38.200 And then everyone
00:17:38.900 craps on Starbucks
00:17:39.960 and says they're not
00:17:41.140 going far enough
00:17:41.900 because you can't unlearn
00:17:43.320 lifelong biases in a day
00:17:45.040 and you need to do
00:17:46.140 all these other things
00:17:47.020 and it has to be ongoing
00:17:48.160 and none of that
00:17:49.960 really happens.
00:17:51.500 A lot of the critics
00:17:52.480 of these programs say
00:17:53.440 so these programs
00:17:54.560 get more criticism
00:17:55.700 from the left
00:17:56.580 than they do
00:17:57.660 from the right
00:17:58.480 because it becomes
00:18:00.400 about tokenism.
00:18:02.260 It becomes about tokenism
00:18:03.780 and you look at
00:18:04.620 what else CBC
00:18:05.340 is doing here.
00:18:06.680 They want to train
00:18:07.880 inclusive newsrooms
00:18:09.400 the impact of
00:18:10.240 unconscious bias
00:18:11.100 on our content
00:18:12.340 and reporting
00:18:13.140 in indigenous communities.
00:18:15.000 Now report
00:18:15.760 these are areas
00:18:16.640 where I think
00:18:17.420 there's a benefit
00:18:18.060 to diversity.
00:18:18.940 If someone's going
00:18:19.420 to be reporting
00:18:20.040 in an indigenous community
00:18:21.720 it would be helpful
00:18:22.460 for them to be indigenous
00:18:24.100 or to at least
00:18:24.880 have an understanding
00:18:26.100 of indigenous issues.
00:18:28.060 If someone is going
00:18:29.060 to manage a team
00:18:30.240 of indigenous reporters
00:18:31.380 it would be helpful
00:18:32.100 for them to have
00:18:32.940 a background in that
00:18:34.560 and have a connection
00:18:35.880 direct or indirect
00:18:37.380 with that culture.
00:18:39.280 So I'm not anti-diversity.
00:18:41.020 What I am
00:18:42.240 is a proponent
00:18:43.220 of the idea
00:18:43.900 that diversity
00:18:44.640 has to be organic.
00:18:46.600 You can't manufacture it
00:18:47.980 you can't manipulate it
00:18:49.200 and if you do
00:18:49.840 it has to come
00:18:51.020 at the expense
00:18:51.660 of something else.
00:18:52.880 It comes at the expense
00:18:54.080 of cohesion
00:18:54.760 maybe it comes
00:18:55.560 at the expense
00:18:56.200 of merit
00:18:57.000 but it comes
00:18:57.940 at the expense
00:18:58.540 of something else
00:18:59.340 if you choose
00:19:00.100 to make diversity
00:19:01.260 itself the goal.
00:19:03.140 You know
00:19:03.340 there was a great line
00:19:04.760 that I actually want
00:19:05.460 to share with you
00:19:06.140 about this
00:19:06.760 about the moral neutrality
00:19:08.420 of diversity.
00:19:09.940 It was from
00:19:10.220 a sit-down interview
00:19:11.120 I did I think
00:19:12.020 about a year ago
00:19:12.760 with Mark Stein.
00:19:14.240 Take a look.
00:19:14.860 Well you look at
00:19:15.400 the now official
00:19:16.320 catchphrase of Canada
00:19:17.620 diversity is our strength.
00:19:19.300 I mean that's the type
00:19:20.460 of thing where
00:19:20.980 if some politician
00:19:21.720 says it
00:19:22.520 it might not mean
00:19:23.380 anything
00:19:23.700 but that is actually
00:19:24.540 guiding policy.
00:19:25.440 No but that actually
00:19:26.140 diversity is our strength.
00:19:27.380 I can't stand that
00:19:28.600 because diversity
00:19:29.600 is morally neutral
00:19:31.400 and you can have
00:19:33.360 five nice ladies
00:19:35.220 like Madame Arbour
00:19:36.500 five nice CBC
00:19:38.480 listening ladies
00:19:39.900 of Denset and Age
00:19:41.900 who like to listen
00:19:45.320 to CBC radio
00:19:47.020 and that group
00:19:49.700 of five ladies
00:19:50.740 Denset and Age
00:19:51.720 is not in the least
00:19:52.920 bit diverse.
00:19:54.320 So you add to them
00:19:55.460 Sudan's leading
00:19:57.360 clitoridectomy practitioner
00:19:59.040 and you've made it
00:20:00.900 more diverse
00:20:01.560 but you haven't
00:20:02.620 necessarily made it
00:20:03.920 better.
00:20:04.540 Diversity is an entirely
00:20:06.020 morally neutral term
00:20:08.620 and simply saying
00:20:11.680 diversity is our strength
00:20:14.060 with a glassy eyed
00:20:14.980 expression
00:20:15.500 because you've been
00:20:16.540 told it ever since
00:20:17.500 kindergarten
00:20:18.040 does not actually
00:20:18.840 make it so.
00:20:19.980 I think you should
00:20:20.440 actually pitch that
00:20:21.300 to like the replacement
00:20:22.300 of the view
00:20:22.800 you know Sudan's leading
00:20:23.820 clitoridectomy specialist
00:20:24.880 you Louise Arbour
00:20:25.820 and everyone else.
00:20:27.240 It would make that show
00:20:28.100 a lot more interesting.
00:20:29.740 But you bring up
00:20:30.880 well actually
00:20:31.640 let's not start
00:20:32.780 with the view
00:20:33.280 this cockamamie thing
00:20:34.680 they've got on the
00:20:35.360 national since Peter
00:20:36.500 Mansbridge retired
00:20:37.580 they've got like
00:20:38.540 four anchors
00:20:39.640 carefully selected
00:20:40.760 according to some
00:20:41.600 CBC focus group thing
00:20:43.360 sticks Sudan's leading
00:20:45.640 clitoridectomy practitioner
00:20:47.160 in the middle of the
00:20:47.980 national as the
00:20:49.080 fifth host.
00:20:50.260 I think that's a
00:20:51.160 fantastic way of
00:20:52.000 putting it
00:20:52.340 just because something
00:20:53.200 is more diverse
00:20:54.220 does not make it
00:20:55.320 better and just
00:20:56.600 because something
00:20:57.460 has perhaps had
00:20:58.800 a different
00:20:59.560 perspective added
00:21:00.540 to it
00:21:01.160 on racial grounds
00:21:02.840 doesn't make it
00:21:03.760 better
00:21:04.080 doesn't make it
00:21:04.820 more fair
00:21:05.380 doesn't make it
00:21:06.000 more just
00:21:06.460 doesn't do
00:21:06.940 any of these
00:21:07.480 things.
00:21:07.800 So again
00:21:08.820 I'm not
00:21:09.580 anti-diversity
00:21:10.560 I'm certainly
00:21:11.340 not anti-people
00:21:12.780 from different
00:21:13.560 backgrounds and
00:21:14.400 groups rising up
00:21:15.380 what I am
00:21:16.600 an opponent of
00:21:17.980 is the idea
00:21:18.840 that we should
00:21:20.060 create these
00:21:21.240 racial lines
00:21:22.720 that are used
00:21:24.280 to define people
00:21:25.420 that are used
00:21:26.000 for advancement
00:21:26.740 and that that
00:21:27.600 is somehow
00:21:28.040 going to combat
00:21:29.200 rather than
00:21:30.580 generate and
00:21:31.740 propagate racism
00:21:33.400 at CBC
00:21:34.080 or anywhere else.
00:21:35.680 We've got to
00:21:36.040 take a break
00:21:36.520 when we come back
00:21:37.220 more of the
00:21:37.800 Andrew Lawton
00:21:38.280 show here on
00:21:39.120 True North.
00:21:40.260 You're tuned in
00:21:41.480 to the Andrew
00:21:42.260 Lawton show.
00:21:47.000 You know we
00:21:47.800 were talking
00:21:48.480 earlier about
00:21:49.520 all the things
00:21:50.340 that are now
00:21:50.840 racist in 2020
00:21:52.440 everything everyone
00:21:53.660 that's basically
00:21:54.440 the gist of it
00:21:55.400 it's been a
00:21:55.860 theme the last
00:21:57.020 couple of episodes
00:21:57.900 of the show.
00:21:58.960 This story is
00:21:59.980 not a new one
00:22:00.880 it's from 2019
00:22:01.780 but I've seen it
00:22:02.740 recirculating a
00:22:03.700 fair bit in the
00:22:04.940 current context.
00:22:05.920 It's a piece in
00:22:06.640 The Independent
00:22:07.280 in the UK
00:22:07.960 that Mary Poppins
00:22:09.660 is racist
00:22:10.680 as termed by
00:22:11.920 a US academic
00:22:12.780 because of the
00:22:14.100 soot scene.
00:22:15.700 The 1964
00:22:16.980 film has that
00:22:18.640 famous scene
00:22:19.500 which now is
00:22:21.180 being likened
00:22:21.940 with blackface
00:22:23.580 and promoting
00:22:24.320 racial stereotypes
00:22:25.520 poor Julie
00:22:26.440 Andrews
00:22:26.980 even though
00:22:28.200 her face
00:22:28.900 was just
00:22:29.420 covered in
00:22:30.180 soot.
00:22:30.720 It was literally
00:22:31.480 a show
00:22:32.240 or a movie
00:22:33.100 about chimney
00:22:33.700 sweeps
00:22:34.100 but now even
00:22:34.760 Mary Poppins
00:22:35.480 is not
00:22:35.980 safe from the
00:22:37.120 racist purge
00:22:39.820 or the racial
00:22:40.380 purge
00:22:40.920 of 2020
00:22:42.280 poor Mary Poppins
00:22:43.180 and poor
00:22:43.520 Dick Van Dyke
00:22:44.080 he's still alive
00:22:44.780 and kicking
00:22:45.120 and so is
00:22:46.140 Julie Andrews
00:22:46.840 as well
00:22:47.260 and the two
00:22:48.020 of them
00:22:48.220 have actually
00:22:48.840 done I think
00:22:50.020 a great deal
00:22:50.660 for entertainment
00:22:51.820 and now
00:22:52.640 they are forced
00:22:54.040 to see this
00:22:55.040 and this is
00:22:55.820 how they'll be
00:22:56.360 remembered now
00:22:57.160 in the eyes
00:22:58.220 of academia.
00:22:59.840 Here's an
00:23:00.580 interesting one
00:23:01.160 as well
00:23:01.440 the RCMP
00:23:02.000 fined seven
00:23:03.280 Americans
00:23:03.740 last week
00:23:04.340 for stopping
00:23:04.900 to sightsee
00:23:05.900 in Banff
00:23:06.680 National Park
00:23:07.880 the sightseeing
00:23:08.700 was while
00:23:09.500 they were driving
00:23:10.200 from the mainland
00:23:11.080 lower 48
00:23:12.180 United States
00:23:12.860 to Alaska
00:23:13.640 despite the
00:23:14.840 border closure
00:23:15.500 you are allowed
00:23:16.440 to drive
00:23:17.220 from the United
00:23:17.980 States
00:23:18.360 to the United
00:23:19.140 States
00:23:19.520 if you live
00:23:20.020 in Alaska
00:23:20.520 or have a
00:23:21.820 so-called
00:23:22.260 essential reason
00:23:23.200 for going there
00:23:23.980 but you need
00:23:24.980 to take the
00:23:25.520 most direct
00:23:26.300 route.
00:23:27.100 Well that is
00:23:27.800 a very beautiful
00:23:28.800 part of North
00:23:29.820 America
00:23:30.280 so I don't
00:23:30.760 blame anyone
00:23:31.360 American or
00:23:31.980 otherwise
00:23:32.300 who's driving
00:23:32.920 by the Rockies
00:23:33.740 to take a look
00:23:34.980 and say oh well
00:23:35.500 this is kind of
00:23:35.980 nice we'll stop
00:23:36.880 and maybe get out
00:23:37.920 especially knowing
00:23:39.040 how safe it is
00:23:39.940 to be outdoors
00:23:40.720 even with the
00:23:41.900 pandemic fears
00:23:43.040 but the RCMP
00:23:44.640 were saying nope
00:23:45.440 if you are
00:23:46.760 not there
00:23:47.720 with a legitimate
00:23:48.660 reason you're
00:23:49.420 getting ticketed
00:23:50.140 so if they were
00:23:51.160 seeing US plates
00:23:52.140 they were going
00:23:52.680 after people
00:23:53.420 and again I mean
00:23:54.820 these busy bodies
00:23:55.640 that were doing
00:23:56.360 nothing other
00:23:58.500 than endangering
00:23:59.520 those who they
00:24:00.400 said were breaking
00:24:01.220 the rules
00:24:01.700 when the people
00:24:02.300 that you know
00:24:03.080 were getting ticketed
00:24:03.880 weren't actually
00:24:04.400 doing anything
00:24:04.960 apart from
00:24:05.520 enjoying the beauty
00:24:06.740 of Canada
00:24:07.300 walking around
00:24:08.180 outdoors
00:24:08.640 not causing
00:24:09.660 a threat to
00:24:10.380 anyone
00:24:10.720 so that's just
00:24:11.960 absurd
00:24:12.300 and again the
00:24:13.200 sooner we get
00:24:13.680 back to life
00:24:14.240 life as normal
00:24:15.520 the better it
00:24:16.800 will be for
00:24:17.640 everyone
00:24:18.060 life as normal
00:24:20.220 is not really
00:24:21.040 something that's
00:24:21.620 happened in my
00:24:22.280 town so many of
00:24:23.380 you may know
00:24:23.800 I'm from London
00:24:24.520 Ontario
00:24:25.020 lovely little city
00:24:26.100 very quiet city
00:24:28.160 by and large
00:24:28.860 despite having a
00:24:29.980 big university
00:24:30.620 and a big college
00:24:31.500 here it's kind of
00:24:32.900 off the beaten
00:24:33.600 path from
00:24:34.720 Toronto stuff
00:24:35.960 so it was a
00:24:37.160 little bit surprising
00:24:37.880 when last week
00:24:38.800 a West African
00:24:40.420 warlord
00:24:41.440 was executed
00:24:43.140 it appears
00:24:43.960 in my city
00:24:44.820 of London
00:24:45.420 Ontario
00:24:45.920 actually not
00:24:46.440 not far from
00:24:47.400 me in the
00:24:47.760 grand scheme
00:24:48.140 of things
00:24:48.460 because it's
00:24:48.760 not a big
00:24:49.380 city
00:24:49.660 this was a
00:24:51.060 really weird
00:24:51.960 thing
00:24:52.400 there was a
00:24:52.940 home invasion
00:24:53.580 and a man
00:24:54.040 killed last
00:24:54.640 week
00:24:54.860 that in and
00:24:55.380 of itself
00:24:55.760 is a bit
00:24:56.140 rare in
00:24:56.560 London
00:24:56.780 and then
00:24:57.960 you read
00:24:58.700 through it
00:24:58.980 a little bit
00:24:59.320 more and
00:24:59.680 you find out
00:25:00.220 that he was
00:25:00.680 actually a
00:25:02.220 former Liberian
00:25:04.000 military general
00:25:05.300 who was accused
00:25:06.740 of just heinous
00:25:08.100 war crimes
00:25:08.720 and who was
00:25:09.720 a commander
00:25:10.380 it sounds like
00:25:11.020 was a general
00:25:11.560 under a guy
00:25:12.460 who's now
00:25:13.000 behind bars
00:25:14.180 for being
00:25:15.000 a war criminal
00:25:15.860 and that was
00:25:16.520 Charles Taylor
00:25:17.900 that he was
00:25:19.180 working under
00:25:20.040 and he was
00:25:20.660 connected
00:25:21.100 there's no doubt
00:25:22.020 to the National
00:25:22.800 Patriotic Front
00:25:23.880 of Liberia
00:25:24.760 which is a
00:25:26.280 rebel militia
00:25:27.500 that was led
00:25:28.620 by Charles Taylor
00:25:29.660 who eventually
00:25:30.220 became the
00:25:30.760 president
00:25:31.140 but then was
00:25:31.720 indicted by
00:25:32.500 the UN
00:25:33.700 Special Court
00:25:34.700 for Sierra Leone
00:25:35.520 so all of
00:25:37.160 this stuff
00:25:37.680 is kind of
00:25:39.140 bizarre here
00:25:39.800 this guy
00:25:40.480 was the
00:25:41.180 target
00:25:41.640 it sounds
00:25:42.360 like
00:25:42.660 four masked
00:25:43.680 men
00:25:44.080 I assume
00:25:44.700 they're men
00:25:45.020 I don't want
00:25:45.320 to presume
00:25:45.720 their gender
00:25:46.240 go and break
00:25:47.840 into the house
00:25:48.400 he ends up
00:25:48.940 dead
00:25:49.280 trying to get
00:25:50.040 help from
00:25:50.480 neighboring houses
00:25:51.260 it sounds like
00:25:51.940 it was quite a
00:25:52.560 bloodied scene
00:25:54.020 by all accounts
00:25:54.740 but the thing
00:25:55.540 that I found
00:25:56.040 fascinating about
00:25:56.820 this is no one
00:25:57.640 knows where the
00:25:58.200 guy how the
00:25:59.380 guy ended up
00:25:59.880 in London
00:26:00.260 why he was
00:26:00.900 there
00:26:01.220 his address
00:26:02.320 was apparently
00:26:02.900 in Toronto
00:26:03.500 and that in
00:26:04.280 and of itself
00:26:04.820 raises other
00:26:05.500 questions
00:26:06.040 and there
00:26:07.200 was a story
00:26:07.960 in McLean's
00:26:08.720 a decade ago
00:26:10.060 written about
00:26:10.620 this by
00:26:11.160 by Michael
00:26:11.780 Petro who's
00:26:12.540 a journalist
00:26:13.160 and he spent
00:26:14.000 a considerable
00:26:15.240 amount of
00:26:15.760 time trying
00:26:16.280 to get to
00:26:16.600 the bottom
00:26:16.960 of this
00:26:17.420 and Michael
00:26:18.540 had tweeted
00:26:19.380 something out
00:26:20.280 on June
00:26:21.220 22nd
00:26:22.200 that after
00:26:23.600 pretty much
00:26:24.380 a decade
00:26:25.080 this guy's
00:26:25.940 application
00:26:26.660 for permanent
00:26:27.400 residency
00:26:28.020 was still
00:26:29.240 unresolved
00:26:30.180 so as of
00:26:30.960 February 10th
00:26:32.060 the judicial
00:26:32.920 entry here
00:26:33.560 says that
00:26:34.500 no decision
00:26:35.160 has been rendered
00:26:35.820 on the
00:26:36.140 applicant's
00:26:36.820 application
00:26:37.520 for permanent
00:26:38.640 residence
00:26:39.100 it was
00:26:39.660 transferred
00:26:40.400 back and
00:26:41.020 forth to
00:26:41.460 different
00:26:41.700 departments
00:26:42.180 this document
00:26:43.400 was filed
00:26:43.900 that document
00:26:44.620 was filed
00:26:45.140 but 10
00:26:46.420 years after
00:26:47.240 concerns were
00:26:48.000 raised about
00:26:48.500 this guy
00:26:48.880 being in
00:26:49.360 Canada
00:26:49.720 and being
00:26:50.780 an alleged
00:26:51.560 war criminal
00:26:52.360 Canada
00:26:53.220 could not
00:26:54.140 and did not
00:26:55.020 deal with
00:26:55.940 that
00:26:56.200 did not
00:26:56.700 deport him
00:26:57.400 there was
00:26:58.280 very little
00:26:58.740 information about
00:26:59.720 it about
00:27:00.100 who was
00:27:00.440 living here
00:27:00.960 and I'm
00:27:02.680 not an
00:27:02.980 expert in
00:27:03.500 West African
00:27:04.180 coups
00:27:04.700 I'm not
00:27:05.000 an expert
00:27:05.360 in Liberian
00:27:06.000 politics
00:27:06.460 but I know
00:27:07.380 that when
00:27:07.640 someone is
00:27:08.060 connected
00:27:08.440 with war
00:27:09.000 crimes
00:27:09.420 it should
00:27:10.220 take perhaps
00:27:11.260 a little bit
00:27:11.860 less time
00:27:12.600 than a decade
00:27:13.460 to figure out
00:27:15.000 what's happening
00:27:15.640 and hold them
00:27:16.420 to account
00:27:16.980 Michael Petro
00:27:18.140 has written
00:27:18.640 another piece
00:27:19.260 in the Globe
00:27:19.700 and Mail
00:27:20.040 here and he's
00:27:20.880 written some
00:27:21.300 stuff on Twitter
00:27:21.900 about it
00:27:22.440 effectively saying
00:27:23.600 that justice
00:27:24.280 cannot and
00:27:25.080 will not be
00:27:25.600 served now
00:27:26.300 because of
00:27:27.480 what happened
00:27:28.040 to this man
00:27:29.140 and the
00:27:30.180 problem with
00:27:31.020 that is that
00:27:31.720 there has been
00:27:32.240 ample time
00:27:33.120 an ample
00:27:33.520 opportunity
00:27:34.160 and this
00:27:35.160 is not
00:27:35.520 a failing
00:27:36.180 of Justin
00:27:36.900 Trudeau
00:27:37.320 I think
00:27:37.760 the conservative
00:27:38.320 government
00:27:38.740 has to bear
00:27:39.400 the brunt
00:27:40.200 of this
00:27:40.500 as well
00:27:40.960 there's another
00:27:42.100 case that the
00:27:42.820 conservatives
00:27:43.300 have failed
00:27:44.720 to have any
00:27:45.380 action on
00:27:45.900 and the liberals
00:27:46.360 have failed
00:27:46.760 to have any
00:27:47.240 action on
00:27:47.820 with a former
00:27:49.060 Nazi who
00:27:49.980 pulled up
00:27:50.960 put up roots
00:27:51.740 in Kitchener
00:27:52.500 Waterloo area
00:27:53.360 and again it was
00:27:54.720 just back and
00:27:55.300 forth in the
00:27:55.820 courts
00:27:56.080 and the fact
00:27:56.880 that a country
00:27:58.060 cannot manage
00:28:00.000 to get a war
00:28:01.300 criminal out
00:28:02.220 of its borders
00:28:03.100 in a decade
00:28:04.560 is an absolute
00:28:06.240 farce
00:28:06.780 how can you
00:28:07.260 take any other
00:28:07.860 border security
00:28:08.660 seriously
00:28:09.240 when someone
00:28:10.360 you know
00:28:10.840 whose past
00:28:11.480 you know
00:28:11.940 however they
00:28:12.760 got in
00:28:13.240 it's a part
00:28:14.760 that we don't
00:28:15.200 know or at
00:28:15.580 least isn't
00:28:15.940 public
00:28:16.260 but we know
00:28:17.040 who he is
00:28:17.640 sounds like
00:28:18.360 they knew
00:28:18.940 where he was
00:28:19.740 how can that
00:28:20.860 not be dealt
00:28:22.160 with
00:28:22.360 and it's such
00:28:22.820 a shame
00:28:23.220 and a country
00:28:23.840 that can't
00:28:24.580 protect its borders
00:28:25.460 is a country
00:28:26.020 that can't really
00:28:26.620 protect much
00:28:27.380 of anything
00:28:27.980 we've got to
00:28:28.820 take a break
00:28:29.280 when we come
00:28:29.660 back more
00:28:30.240 of the
00:28:30.580 Andrew Lawton
00:28:31.040 show here
00:28:31.680 on True
00:28:32.000 North
00:28:32.280 you're tuned
00:28:34.940 in to the
00:28:35.440 Andrew Lawton
00:28:36.100 show
00:28:36.480 welcome back
00:28:39.420 to the
00:28:40.040 Andrew Lawton
00:28:40.640 show there's
00:28:41.160 been a huge
00:28:41.960 case going on
00:28:42.980 in British
00:28:43.460 Columbia for
00:28:44.160 the last
00:28:44.660 decade a
00:28:45.680 landmark case
00:28:46.500 that really
00:28:47.040 will determine
00:28:48.320 in many respects
00:28:49.380 what rights
00:28:50.240 patients have
00:28:51.060 to access
00:28:51.600 health care
00:28:52.220 outside of
00:28:53.440 going through
00:28:53.920 the government
00:28:54.360 monopoly
00:28:54.920 and this
00:28:55.600 case has been
00:28:56.240 just mired
00:28:56.940 in back and
00:28:58.220 forth
00:28:58.620 protracted
00:28:59.500 litigation
00:29:00.080 and now
00:29:01.060 another
00:29:01.840 question that's
00:29:03.360 being raised
00:29:03.960 about whether
00:29:04.500 Canadians have
00:29:05.340 a right to
00:29:06.120 learn how
00:29:07.400 much the
00:29:07.860 government has
00:29:08.440 spent fighting
00:29:09.340 this given
00:29:09.860 how long
00:29:10.340 it's taking
00:29:10.860 this is an
00:29:12.080 appeal that's
00:29:12.660 going before
00:29:13.380 the court
00:29:13.800 in British
00:29:14.260 Columbia
00:29:14.640 today
00:29:15.180 it's the
00:29:15.960 Canadian
00:29:16.320 Constitution
00:29:16.880 Foundation
00:29:17.700 that will be
00:29:18.160 making oral
00:29:19.140 arguments at
00:29:19.740 the BC
00:29:20.080 Court of
00:29:20.500 Appeal
00:29:20.860 the CCF's
00:29:22.160 Director of
00:29:22.920 Litigation
00:29:23.480 Christine Van
00:29:24.160 Gein joins
00:29:24.920 me on the
00:29:25.520 line now
00:29:25.980 Christine good
00:29:26.760 to talk to
00:29:27.180 you thanks
00:29:27.400 very much
00:29:27.800 for coming
00:29:28.280 on today
00:29:28.700 yeah thanks
00:29:29.760 for having
00:29:30.060 me on
00:29:30.460 so I want
00:29:31.380 to talk
00:29:31.720 about the
00:29:32.480 the oral
00:29:33.020 arguments that
00:29:33.600 are going to
00:29:33.840 be today and
00:29:34.480 also a bit
00:29:35.120 later on about
00:29:36.100 the broader
00:29:36.780 aspects of
00:29:37.860 this case
00:29:38.320 because I've
00:29:38.720 been covering
00:29:39.220 it for what
00:29:39.820 seems like
00:29:40.420 years now
00:29:41.120 which just
00:29:42.080 reminds us of
00:29:42.960 how long this
00:29:43.900 thing's been
00:29:44.340 going on
00:29:44.940 why is the
00:29:45.940 question of how
00:29:46.720 much the
00:29:47.060 government's been
00:29:47.660 spending
00:29:48.220 important
00:29:49.360 so the
00:29:51.560 Cambia litigation
00:29:52.280 has been going
00:29:52.740 on for over a
00:29:53.560 decade and
00:29:54.780 the cost of
00:29:56.300 litigation you
00:29:57.440 even a short
00:29:58.240 amount of
00:29:58.660 litigation is
00:29:59.720 expensive
00:30:00.180 if you're going
00:30:02.220 to be litigating
00:30:02.820 for 10 years
00:30:03.660 it's a fortune
00:30:05.280 and this fortune
00:30:07.280 is something that
00:30:07.940 the taxpayers and
00:30:09.060 patients of British
00:30:09.940 Columbia have
00:30:10.600 paid for
00:30:11.160 and essentially
00:30:12.220 they're paying
00:30:13.340 the government
00:30:14.180 the government is
00:30:14.980 using their money
00:30:15.680 to litigate
00:30:16.420 against patients
00:30:17.300 own rights
00:30:18.260 and that's the
00:30:19.420 right to access
00:30:20.460 timely health care
00:30:21.660 now the nub of the
00:30:23.080 question in
00:30:24.120 today's appeal
00:30:25.600 that's before the
00:30:26.460 British Columbia
00:30:27.020 Court of Appeal
00:30:27.740 is whether
00:30:29.540 the cost of
00:30:31.080 the litigation
00:30:32.000 the 10 years
00:30:32.760 of litigation
00:30:33.260 whether that cost
00:30:34.480 is subject
00:30:35.060 to solicitor
00:30:36.160 client privilege
00:30:36.960 and our argument
00:30:39.080 is that
00:30:39.760 to say that
00:30:40.720 one global
00:30:41.580 number
00:30:42.000 the total bill
00:30:42.940 of 10 years
00:30:43.580 of litigation
00:30:44.140 is privileged
00:30:45.860 stretches
00:30:46.840 the concept
00:30:48.060 of privilege
00:30:48.940 beyond its
00:30:49.940 reasonable
00:30:50.600 and natural
00:30:51.200 limits
00:30:51.780 yeah
00:30:53.200 and that's
00:30:53.740 actually not
00:30:54.360 all that surprising
00:30:55.380 to me
00:30:55.860 that you know
00:30:56.680 like it's not
00:30:57.440 it doesn't seem
00:30:57.980 all that radical
00:30:58.660 a concept
00:30:59.220 I know in other
00:30:59.880 cases
00:31:00.260 through access
00:31:01.260 to information
00:31:02.020 total bills
00:31:03.560 have been disclosed
00:31:04.400 by government
00:31:05.100 especially at the
00:31:06.080 federal level
00:31:06.620 I've seen this
00:31:07.220 so I don't know
00:31:07.840 why in BC
00:31:08.600 it would have to
00:31:09.260 be this state
00:31:09.940 secret
00:31:10.380 well I think
00:31:12.140 it's always
00:31:13.100 a fact
00:31:13.940 specific analysis
00:31:15.440 so there are
00:31:16.620 things that could
00:31:17.420 be disclosed
00:31:18.500 by the mere
00:31:20.440 disclosure
00:31:21.440 of a bill
00:31:22.180 for example
00:31:23.040 you know
00:31:24.900 the mere
00:31:25.380 disclosure
00:31:26.180 of a consultation
00:31:27.120 with a family
00:31:28.040 lawyer
00:31:28.500 could reveal
00:31:29.940 that you've been
00:31:30.580 consulting with a
00:31:31.380 family lawyer
00:31:31.940 and maybe
00:31:32.320 considering divorce
00:31:33.220 that's why
00:31:33.940 things like that
00:31:34.620 are subject
00:31:35.120 to solicitor
00:31:35.840 client privilege
00:31:36.820 but the total
00:31:39.160 number
00:31:39.760 of 10 years
00:31:40.840 of litigation
00:31:41.420 which we know
00:31:42.260 the government
00:31:42.700 has said
00:31:43.360 is a very
00:31:44.200 important case
00:31:44.900 to them
00:31:45.280 we know
00:31:45.900 they've called
00:31:46.520 many many
00:31:47.360 experts
00:31:47.860 it's been going
00:31:48.700 on for a long
00:31:49.560 time
00:31:50.020 and it's
00:31:50.700 extremely
00:31:51.200 hard fought
00:31:51.980 we know
00:31:52.840 that this
00:31:53.260 bill
00:31:53.620 is huge
00:31:54.920 we know
00:31:55.700 it's important
00:31:56.480 what possible
00:31:57.640 communications
00:31:58.540 could we
00:31:59.380 glean
00:32:00.120 from seeing
00:32:01.100 whether the
00:32:01.900 number the
00:32:02.420 government
00:32:02.780 has spent
00:32:03.420 is 8 million
00:32:04.180 dollars
00:32:04.580 or 20 million
00:32:05.340 dollars
00:32:05.720 we can't
00:32:06.740 get any
00:32:07.160 information
00:32:07.620 from that
00:32:08.220 and to
00:32:09.600 say that
00:32:10.000 that's
00:32:10.300 privileged
00:32:10.880 would mean
00:32:12.800 that what
00:32:13.400 is normally
00:32:14.120 you know
00:32:14.800 almost a
00:32:15.360 routine
00:32:15.780 disclosure
00:32:16.420 of documents
00:32:17.300 to the
00:32:17.680 public
00:32:18.140 through
00:32:19.240 access
00:32:19.560 to
00:32:19.740 information
00:32:20.180 legislation
00:32:20.980 that
00:32:21.620 routine
00:32:22.000 disclosure
00:32:22.520 in the
00:32:23.000 public
00:32:23.280 interest
00:32:23.720 could
00:32:24.180 stop
00:32:24.720 if this
00:32:25.240 new
00:32:25.420 precedent
00:32:25.800 is set
00:32:26.300 today
00:32:26.620 and
00:32:27.100 taxpayers
00:32:27.500 deserve
00:32:27.940 to know
00:32:28.480 how much
00:32:29.300 the government
00:32:29.580 is spending
00:32:29.960 when they're
00:32:30.360 litigating
00:32:30.820 against the
00:32:31.320 public's
00:32:31.700 own interest
00:32:32.280 not that
00:32:33.740 it matters
00:32:34.700 because obviously
00:32:35.380 the cost
00:32:35.960 is the cost
00:32:36.600 and whether
00:32:37.140 a lawyer
00:32:37.580 is in-house
00:32:38.240 or from
00:32:39.240 another firm
00:32:40.000 they still
00:32:40.360 have to be
00:32:40.700 paid
00:32:41.040 but do we
00:32:41.980 know if
00:32:42.200 the government
00:32:42.600 has been
00:32:42.880 relying exclusively
00:32:43.880 on its own
00:32:45.040 Justice Department
00:32:46.060 lawyers here
00:32:46.720 or have they
00:32:47.260 contracted out
00:32:48.160 to firms
00:32:48.940 in this
00:32:49.460 I can't answer
00:32:51.400 that question
00:32:51.820 I mean yesterday
00:32:52.460 was my first day
00:32:53.380 so I don't know
00:32:54.740 all of the ins
00:32:55.880 and outs
00:32:56.240 of 10 years
00:32:56.860 worth of litigation
00:32:57.640 but what I can
00:32:58.800 tell you is that
00:32:59.880 they have retained
00:33:00.860 a huge number
00:33:01.700 of experts
00:33:02.460 and there are a
00:33:03.140 huge number
00:33:03.540 of expert reports
00:33:04.660 and that there
00:33:05.480 have been
00:33:05.980 many many motions
00:33:07.440 and sort of
00:33:08.540 in between
00:33:09.180 what are called
00:33:09.660 interlocutory
00:33:10.700 motions
00:33:12.560 in the middle
00:33:13.780 of this litigation
00:33:14.520 it's been going
00:33:15.200 on for 10 years
00:33:15.980 and it's only
00:33:16.560 just concluded
00:33:17.340 its trial
00:33:18.180 yeah and speaking
00:33:19.460 in general terms
00:33:20.400 not in this case
00:33:21.180 I've seen
00:33:21.960 in other cases
00:33:23.360 that I've read
00:33:24.080 and looked at
00:33:24.940 how some of these
00:33:25.940 expert reports
00:33:26.740 can cost tens
00:33:27.620 of thousands
00:33:28.100 of dollars
00:33:28.660 to produce
00:33:29.320 you're paying
00:33:29.960 people a lot
00:33:30.840 of money
00:33:31.080 to do them
00:33:31.640 not to mention
00:33:32.220 travel
00:33:32.720 and all of that
00:33:33.540 so each individual
00:33:34.440 report is expensive
00:33:35.920 and if you're
00:33:36.360 talking about
00:33:36.820 multiple reports
00:33:37.700 that adds up
00:33:38.600 yeah absolutely
00:33:39.860 and these are
00:33:40.300 really high profile
00:33:41.100 people that have
00:33:42.160 written these
00:33:43.100 reports
00:33:43.780 and the trial
00:33:45.640 alone went on
00:33:46.400 for over 100 days
00:33:47.680 so we know
00:33:48.860 that it's expensive
00:33:49.760 and the real reason
00:33:51.440 the government
00:33:51.960 is objecting
00:33:53.160 in our opinion
00:33:54.180 is not because
00:33:55.280 they believe
00:33:56.100 that this number
00:33:56.900 is privileged
00:33:57.540 it's because
00:33:58.660 they believe
00:33:59.220 this number
00:33:59.760 is embarrassing
00:34:00.840 and it's
00:34:02.920 embarrassing
00:34:03.400 for politicians
00:34:04.280 when they spend
00:34:06.080 you know millions
00:34:07.560 and potentially
00:34:08.220 tens of millions
00:34:08.920 of taxpayer dollars
00:34:10.160 fighting against
00:34:10.980 the right to choose
00:34:12.020 how you're going
00:34:12.820 to access
00:34:13.160 health care
00:34:13.680 yeah and let's
00:34:14.880 actually talk about
00:34:15.720 that because
00:34:16.240 oftentimes these
00:34:17.340 cases tend to
00:34:18.720 detract attention
00:34:20.080 from the broader
00:34:20.840 questions that are
00:34:21.600 being asked
00:34:22.180 the question that
00:34:22.880 was the focus
00:34:23.900 of that 100-day
00:34:24.960 trial
00:34:25.400 what is at stake
00:34:26.940 in this case
00:34:27.700 so the Canby
00:34:29.860 litigation
00:34:30.420 that's the
00:34:31.400 the bigger
00:34:32.100 the bigger trial
00:34:33.360 the bigger case
00:34:34.220 it has been going
00:34:36.100 on for a long time
00:34:36.880 as I said
00:34:37.500 the question is
00:34:38.560 essentially
00:34:39.120 does the government
00:34:40.740 have a right
00:34:41.480 to restrict
00:34:42.260 patients from
00:34:43.880 buying private
00:34:44.700 health insurance
00:34:45.380 and restrict
00:34:46.540 doctors from
00:34:48.880 practicing in
00:34:49.860 both private
00:34:50.660 and government
00:34:52.720 run health care
00:34:53.720 institutions
00:34:54.260 so I'm not sure
00:34:56.140 if your listeners
00:34:57.240 would be aware
00:34:58.940 or not
00:34:59.520 but there have
00:35:00.400 been private
00:35:01.040 surgical clinics
00:35:02.040 operating in
00:35:03.180 British Columbia
00:35:03.780 without problem
00:35:04.640 for more than
00:35:05.800 20 years
00:35:06.520 and those clinics
00:35:08.720 exist in part
00:35:10.500 to give priority
00:35:11.580 access to people
00:35:12.780 who are injured
00:35:13.860 in the workplace
00:35:14.540 and are given
00:35:15.620 special treatment
00:35:16.540 through what would
00:35:17.860 be British Columbia's
00:35:19.280 WSIB
00:35:20.360 their equivalent
00:35:20.920 of WSIB
00:35:22.120 and the physicians
00:35:24.880 who run those clinics
00:35:25.700 also offer
00:35:26.880 surgical procedures
00:35:27.960 to patients
00:35:29.220 who would like
00:35:30.080 to pay for their
00:35:30.980 surgery
00:35:31.360 because you know
00:35:32.740 they might not
00:35:33.320 want to wait
00:35:33.840 for six months
00:35:35.620 nine months
00:35:36.600 two years
00:35:37.920 sometimes four
00:35:39.200 to five years
00:35:40.100 for certain types
00:35:41.080 of procedures
00:35:41.940 and it's our
00:35:44.200 position
00:35:44.720 and it's the
00:35:46.920 plaintiff patient
00:35:47.800 plaintiff's position
00:35:48.820 in the Cambia litigation
00:35:50.020 that you have
00:35:51.880 a charter right
00:35:52.780 to access health care
00:35:54.200 you have a charter
00:35:54.880 right to life
00:35:55.860 liberty and security
00:35:56.860 of person
00:35:57.440 and if the government
00:35:58.420 is going to say
00:35:59.200 that you are only
00:36:00.800 able to access
00:36:01.580 health care
00:36:02.220 through government
00:36:03.620 channels
00:36:04.620 those channels
00:36:05.820 those channels
00:36:05.840 are not working
00:36:06.820 and they're leaving
00:36:07.700 patients in pain
00:36:09.140 and sick
00:36:10.060 and in some cases
00:36:11.440 permanently disabled
00:36:13.020 or even dying
00:36:14.260 on wait lists
00:36:15.260 is the case
00:36:16.540 just about a patient's
00:36:18.040 right to access
00:36:18.820 the care
00:36:19.380 or also a doctor's
00:36:21.700 right to provide it
00:36:22.660 or I mean
00:36:23.460 does it have to be
00:36:24.060 an either or
00:36:24.600 or are both
00:36:25.080 really being litigated
00:36:26.100 really what the
00:36:28.060 specific question
00:36:29.340 being asked
00:36:30.140 is
00:36:30.560 is there a right
00:36:32.060 for private
00:36:34.080 medical insurance
00:36:35.180 and is there
00:36:36.040 a
00:36:36.680 or should
00:36:37.740 should the prohibition
00:36:39.080 on private medical
00:36:40.140 insurance be struck down
00:36:41.380 and should the
00:36:42.340 prohibition
00:36:43.020 on doctors
00:36:43.900 having what's called
00:36:45.660 dual practice
00:36:46.520 which is
00:36:47.180 practicing in private
00:36:48.660 clinics and in
00:36:49.620 the public system
00:36:50.640 should that prohibition
00:36:51.820 be struck down
00:36:53.880 and we argue
00:36:55.180 that both
00:36:55.640 should be struck down
00:36:56.480 and I mean
00:36:57.580 I would assume
00:36:58.140 that something
00:36:58.540 of this nature
00:36:59.200 is destined
00:37:00.140 to go to the
00:37:01.140 Canadian Supreme
00:37:02.420 Court anyway
00:37:03.200 but obviously
00:37:03.900 it has to go
00:37:04.540 through at the
00:37:05.540 provincial level
00:37:06.240 before it gets there
00:37:07.500 do we have much
00:37:09.000 or any precedent
00:37:10.080 elsewhere in Canada
00:37:11.100 on these questions
00:37:12.400 on basically
00:37:13.480 the public health
00:37:14.240 care monopoly
00:37:14.940 yeah so there's
00:37:16.420 actually a very
00:37:16.980 famous precedent
00:37:18.000 from Quebec
00:37:18.680 in a case
00:37:19.360 about 15 years
00:37:20.280 ago called
00:37:21.380 Chioli
00:37:21.880 and in Chioli
00:37:23.280 the government
00:37:23.980 found that
00:37:25.240 the Quebec
00:37:26.060 prohibition
00:37:26.880 on private
00:37:27.840 insurance
00:37:28.600 was violating
00:37:30.440 patients rights
00:37:31.740 to life
00:37:32.280 liberty
00:37:32.560 and security
00:37:33.040 person under
00:37:33.720 section 7
00:37:34.360 because it was
00:37:34.980 leaving many
00:37:35.620 patients languishing
00:37:36.580 on these
00:37:37.000 wait lists
00:37:37.520 so the question
00:37:39.160 before the
00:37:40.040 British Columbia
00:37:40.920 courts
00:37:41.460 is similar
00:37:42.500 we just have
00:37:44.040 that added
00:37:44.920 prohibition
00:37:46.140 on the dual
00:37:46.900 practice
00:37:47.400 and really
00:37:49.120 the dual
00:37:49.560 practice
00:37:50.260 prohibition
00:37:51.480 it's a
00:37:52.880 it's a
00:37:53.280 practical
00:37:53.760 consequence
00:37:54.440 if a doctor
00:37:55.460 is prohibited
00:37:56.120 from operating
00:37:57.000 in a private
00:37:57.860 clinic
00:37:58.240 because they
00:38:00.180 are operating
00:38:00.900 they would
00:38:01.220 like to have
00:38:01.740 public
00:38:02.400 hospital
00:38:03.360 surgical care
00:38:04.260 they really
00:38:05.300 can't survive
00:38:06.560 only operating
00:38:07.440 in private
00:38:08.340 clinics
00:38:08.800 doctors need
00:38:09.880 hospital access
00:38:10.940 and they
00:38:12.580 need that
00:38:13.480 and it's also
00:38:14.040 part of the
00:38:15.180 way many
00:38:15.600 physicians view
00:38:16.580 their public
00:38:18.160 role is to
00:38:19.280 provide access
00:38:20.020 in the public
00:38:20.500 system as well
00:38:21.200 and as I
00:38:21.980 understand it
00:38:22.680 with doctors
00:38:23.760 like for example
00:38:24.480 at the
00:38:24.940 Canby Center
00:38:25.500 they've got
00:38:25.980 these ORs
00:38:26.860 and you
00:38:27.700 know you've
00:38:28.000 got a doctor
00:38:28.540 that isn't
00:38:29.380 serving a
00:38:30.420 workplace injury
00:38:31.520 at that
00:38:31.860 particular time
00:38:32.660 they're not
00:38:33.640 taking anything
00:38:34.620 away from the
00:38:35.280 public system
00:38:35.920 by adding a
00:38:37.100 private service
00:38:37.860 on top of
00:38:38.560 the work
00:38:39.200 they're already
00:38:39.560 doing
00:38:39.900 yeah absolutely
00:38:41.640 and I think
00:38:42.240 one of the
00:38:42.700 things a lot
00:38:43.200 of people
00:38:43.520 don't know
00:38:44.100 is that many
00:38:44.720 physicians
00:38:45.240 who do
00:38:45.960 operate in
00:38:46.620 the public
00:38:47.000 system
00:38:47.420 don't get
00:38:48.420 the number
00:38:48.840 of operating
00:38:49.860 room days
00:38:50.660 that they
00:38:51.380 would like
00:38:52.220 yeah the
00:38:53.060 care is
00:38:53.540 rationed
00:38:54.140 that's a
00:38:54.540 huge problem
00:38:55.140 especially in
00:38:55.720 Ontario
00:38:56.120 so we have
00:38:57.300 some physicians
00:38:57.980 who would like
00:38:58.660 to operate
00:38:59.480 you know
00:39:00.060 100 days
00:39:01.080 a year
00:39:01.860 and they are
00:39:02.620 given 20
00:39:03.360 operating days
00:39:04.400 and these
00:39:04.760 are some
00:39:05.200 of these
00:39:05.440 are physicians
00:39:05.980 who have
00:39:06.960 really small
00:39:08.440 subspecialties
00:39:09.400 and four-year
00:39:10.060 wait lists
00:39:10.720 and if
00:39:11.980 if you
00:39:13.160 would like
00:39:14.160 and the
00:39:14.720 patients aren't
00:39:15.440 wealthy
00:39:15.780 the patients
00:39:16.340 just really
00:39:17.260 feel desperately
00:39:18.600 that they need
00:39:19.400 these surgeries
00:39:20.360 and that's
00:39:20.880 why they're
00:39:21.400 willing to
00:39:22.040 pay in
00:39:23.360 order to
00:39:23.700 access care
00:39:24.400 that the
00:39:24.780 government
00:39:25.020 is not
00:39:25.340 providing
00:39:25.800 them
00:39:26.080 and you
00:39:26.660 can't tell
00:39:27.260 a patient
00:39:27.700 who's
00:39:28.020 suffering
00:39:28.340 you need
00:39:28.740 to continue
00:39:29.340 to suffer
00:39:29.960 because of
00:39:30.900 some type
00:39:31.640 of political
00:39:32.280 dogma
00:39:32.920 about our
00:39:33.400 view of the
00:39:33.880 public health
00:39:34.320 care system
00:39:34.880 in Canada
00:39:35.360 yeah that's
00:39:36.660 a very good
00:39:37.220 way of putting
00:39:38.020 it because
00:39:38.420 in a lot of
00:39:38.920 cases I
00:39:39.440 find that
00:39:40.080 the that
00:39:40.780 ironclad grip
00:39:41.780 on the
00:39:42.260 public health
00:39:42.820 care monopoly
00:39:43.560 is really
00:39:44.320 preserving this
00:39:45.240 ideal more
00:39:46.560 than it's
00:39:46.960 preserving any
00:39:47.660 functional
00:39:48.240 effect
00:39:48.900 yeah and
00:39:50.080 no one is
00:39:51.060 arguing that
00:39:52.080 there should
00:39:52.720 be a
00:39:54.120 dismantling of
00:39:55.920 the public
00:39:56.340 system
00:39:56.780 we're just
00:39:57.360 arguing that
00:39:58.620 and we're
00:39:59.500 just supporting
00:40:00.360 this litigation
00:40:00.920 we're not
00:40:01.320 actually an
00:40:02.180 intervener
00:40:02.800 plaintiff
00:40:03.900 we're just
00:40:04.620 supporting this
00:40:05.300 particular piece
00:40:06.460 of litigation
00:40:06.960 everyone supports
00:40:09.160 the public
00:40:09.580 system and wants
00:40:10.280 the public
00:40:10.760 system to
00:40:11.260 remain in
00:40:11.660 place
00:40:11.900 what we're
00:40:12.240 saying is
00:40:12.780 that clinics
00:40:13.620 that have
00:40:13.940 existed for
00:40:14.560 20 years
00:40:15.240 that are
00:40:15.980 helping patients
00:40:16.780 access care
00:40:17.600 instead of
00:40:18.180 waiting on
00:40:18.580 wait lists
00:40:19.100 and give
00:40:19.840 physicians
00:40:20.340 the opportunity
00:40:21.460 to use
00:40:22.200 their time
00:40:22.820 in a way
00:40:23.260 that helps
00:40:23.680 the public
00:40:24.140 instead of
00:40:24.720 you know
00:40:25.000 just just
00:40:26.540 sitting at
00:40:27.520 home or
00:40:27.860 doing more
00:40:28.420 consultations
00:40:29.200 for patients
00:40:29.760 they can't
00:40:30.240 operate on
00:40:30.880 you know
00:40:31.340 that's in
00:40:32.360 the public
00:40:32.740 interest
00:40:33.240 that protects
00:40:34.380 people's
00:40:35.240 protection for
00:40:36.740 their life
00:40:37.300 liberty and
00:40:37.720 security of
00:40:38.200 person
00:40:38.580 Canadian
00:40:39.840 Constitution
00:40:40.340 Foundation
00:40:41.080 litigation
00:40:41.620 director
00:40:42.220 Christine
00:40:42.620 Van Gein
00:40:43.240 joining me
00:40:43.820 on the line
00:40:44.380 Christine
00:40:44.700 great to talk
00:40:45.520 to you again
00:40:45.800 thanks very much
00:40:46.380 for coming
00:40:46.760 on
00:40:47.040 thanks
00:40:47.620 happy to
00:40:48.360 talk to
00:40:48.660 you anytime
00:40:49.020 Andrew
00:40:49.360 that does
00:40:50.580 it for us
00:40:51.380 for today
00:40:51.920 my thanks
00:40:52.380 to Christine
00:40:52.880 Van Gein
00:40:53.320 and all of
00:40:53.700 you for
00:40:54.140 tuning into
00:40:54.680 the show
00:40:55.020 we'll be
00:40:55.600 back next
00:40:56.300 week with
00:40:56.720 more of
00:40:57.280 Canada's
00:40:57.800 most irreverent
00:40:58.760 talk show
00:40:59.200 this is the
00:41:00.000 Andrew Lawton
00:41:00.440 show here
00:41:01.020 on True
00:41:01.320 North
00:41:01.600 thanks for
00:41:02.380 listening to
00:41:02.860 the Andrew
00:41:03.260 Lawton
00:41:03.560 show
00:41:03.860 support the
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