Juno News - Fired ethics professor Julie Ponesse on the dangers of vaccine mandates

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's most irreverent talk show. This is The Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:00:11.920 Coming up, a look at vaccine mandates and individual choice with former ethics professor Julie Panessi.

00:00:19.800 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.

00:00:23.400 Welcome to The Andrew Lawton Show. This is Canada's most irreverent talk show here on True North.

00:00:32.040 We're going to do things a little bit differently on this show.

00:00:34.760 We've been talking for months and months about the increasing rigidness and restrictiveness of vaccine mandates.

00:00:41.800 We're going to today spotlight a woman who you are probably very familiar with by now.

00:00:46.460 She shot to fame just a few months ago when speaking up about her unwillingness to comply with a vaccine mandate being imposed upon her by Huron University College,

00:00:57.100 the affiliated college of Western University in London, Ontario.

00:01:01.940 And that's where she was teaching for years as an ethics professor specializing in medical ethics, 0.99

00:01:07.140 which is why she had a particularly astute opposition to vaccine mandates,

00:01:11.200 which she tried to convey to her school's administration, who subsequently ignored everything she had to say.

00:01:17.580 She launched a video which went viral in which she explained why she was taking the stand that she was.

00:01:24.120 Take a look at a snippet of that.

00:01:25.500 My employer has just mandated that I must get a vaccine for COVID-19.

00:01:30.880 If I want to keep working at my job as a professor, I have to take this vaccine.

00:01:35.940 Here's my conundrum.

00:01:38.940 My school employs me to be an authority on the subject of ethics.

00:01:44.220 I hold a PhD in ethics and ancient philosophy.

00:01:48.340 And I'm here to tell you it's ethically wrong to coerce someone to take a vaccine.

00:01:54.920 If it happens to you, you don't have to do it.

00:01:58.900 If you don't want a COVID vaccine, don't take one.

00:02:02.660 End of discussion.

00:02:03.700 That was Professor Julie Panessi, now terminated from her job because of an unwillingness to go along with a vaccine mandate. 0.59

00:02:11.560 She's explained a lot of her decision making, what she tried to do,

00:02:15.220 and what she thinks about all the things that have happened since then.

00:02:18.340 In a new book, My Choice, The Ethical Case Against COVID-19 Vaccine Mandates.

00:02:23.260 That book just published this week at mychoicebook.ca.

00:02:26.780 Professor Julie Panessi joins me now.

00:02:29.560 Professor, thanks very much for coming on today.

00:02:31.720 It's good to speak to you.

00:02:32.480 Of course. Hi, Andrew.

00:02:34.200 So I want to go back to the very basics here because one of the things that you've seen in the time since you went viral with that initial video,

00:02:41.980 and you address it point blank in the book, is that you get caught up in this anti-vaxxer narrative when all that I've ever seen from you,

00:02:50.640 and indeed all that is in the book, is not about opposition to vaccines, but opposition to vaccine mandates.

00:02:57.200 Yet this conflation of the two, I'd say, has become one of the biggest problems in the discourse surrounding, I mean, not only your case, but the mandates themselves.

00:03:05.320 This is such a complicated issue, and I don't even really know where to start with it.

00:03:11.040 I mean, the term anti-vaxxer, I think, should become extinct immediately, if for no other reason than because it's slang.

00:03:19.120 It's not a grammatically, you know, well-constructed term.

00:03:23.880 And so to take a slang term like that and apply it to anyone is automatically derogatory, right, and automatically signals that you don't value the person that you're attaching that label to.

00:03:34.860 So that's, like, one issue right off the bat, right?

00:03:37.000 If you want to lump people together who have criticisms of this set of vaccines or all vaccines, then at least come up with a more respectful term, right?

00:03:48.160 That's my first point.

00:03:49.960 Secondly, you're exactly right.

00:03:52.380 I mean, I don't know if I've made this clear or clear enough in the book or in previous interviews or appearances, but I am pro-choice on this issue.

00:04:02.700 I think people, you know, in Canada, we have a long history of developing ethical policies and jurisprudence to support informed choice.

00:04:13.120 But the key is that that choice has to be informed, and I can't tell you the number of people I talk to, very bright people still today, people who consider themselves informed because they read, you know, mainstream media, and they say,

00:04:25.500 what are you talking about, there are no problems with these vaccines, and they're a panacea, they will end this pandemic, and I am slowing it down, right?

00:04:34.640 And I think that's a reflection of the fact that they think these COVID vaccines are what we call sterilizing, which they're not, right?

00:04:41.460 And so there's a lot of, and I really hate to use this term, misinformation, I think there's a lot of confusion over the scientific facts, and that's giving rise to mislabeling of people, and there's a lot of harm coming from that.

00:04:57.020 There have been a number of professors, I'd say very few, compared to what they should be doing, but a number of professors who have spoken out against these vaccine mandates at universities.

00:05:08.160 But what's interesting in your case is that your expertise is specifically tied to the idea of vaccine mandates, with a background in ethics and specifically medical ethics.

00:05:18.320 It depends who you ask, Andrew.

00:05:20.520 Pardon me?

00:05:21.260 It depends who you ask.

00:05:22.540 Well, that's true, that's true, but let's take you at your word and your resume at its word for the time being here, and you've actually pointed out that the university that you worked for, Huron, part of Western University in London, had paid you to be an ethicist, had paid you to engage in the very discussions that led you to take the stand that you did.

00:05:43.520 And it's amazing how that scholarship they expect from you ends when they're trying to impose this mandate, and the government is trying to impose this mandate.

00:05:51.300 I think you, I think you, I think you have framed that explanation very well.

00:05:56.180 There's a kind, there's a kind of irony there, and possibly a sort of hypocrisy.

00:06:01.640 I'm going to correct you for a minute and say, I don't think, you know, in hindsight, I don't think they were paying me to be critically reflective and to follow my own reasoning to its logical conclusions.

00:06:13.940 I think they were paying me and every other instructor they hired to follow a certain narrative, and it's become very clear to me being outside of academia now, in general, not just at Huron, but in general looking in, that you can think anything you want.

00:06:28.980 You can write anything you want, you can say anything you want, as long as it's within a very narrow spectrum, slice of a broader spectrum, right?

00:06:40.500 You cannot question, for example, the pro-choice movement when it comes to abortion.

00:06:46.280 You cannot question certain gender issues at universities these days, and you cannot question the vaccine mandates. 0.53

00:06:54.560 These are things that will get you cancelled and fired.

00:06:58.120 So if we want to say that our universities are, you know, sort of pinnacles of critical thinking, well, we have to reinterpret, in my view, what we mean by that.

00:07:09.280 And what we mean by that is you can think freely within a certain prescribed range of opinions and beliefs.

00:07:19.760 One thing that I find quite interesting is that for a lot of folks, certainly in Canada, the vaccine mandate, the discussion of mandatory vaccination at a population level that we're seeing in places like Austria and the Czech Republic and Greece, these blindsided a lot of people.

00:07:36.440 And they have left a lot of people wondering, how did this come about in, you know, my precious Canada, my precious Austria, whatever the case may be.

00:07:43.560 You're very unique in the sense that you saw this mandate coming from a mile away, even before vaccination was being spread out.

00:07:51.780 Explain that to me, because a lot of people did not think it would get where it has gotten.

00:07:57.320 You know, I'm well known, I think, now in certain circles for saying the following thing, which is that whoever I speak with these days about human nature, I am always the most pessimistic in the pair.

00:08:10.780 And often the person on the other side will say, no, no, I think you're just realistic, not pessimistic.

00:08:19.000 I think it would be fair to say that where we've gotten, and I think where we're going to be, and I don't really mean to scare anyone, but I think we're looking at a Canada in the next few months where employment mandates will be the least of our problems.

00:08:34.240 Right. And what has gotten us to that point is not what's happened over the last 18 months, as though it emerged ex nihilo or out of nothing or out of a vacuum.

00:08:44.980 Right. But my belief is that we have been putting in place the ideological, the sort of the social virtues, the political devices in place in our society for many decades that have gotten to us to this point.

00:09:04.320 Right. And I've spoken about this in other interviews, but one of those is this collectivist idea.

00:09:09.600 And I think a lot of people will say, well, collectivism sounds pretty good because it sounds like we're in it together and we're working for our, you know, our brothers and sisters and we're helping each other out.

00:09:19.200 Well, that's altruism, right? That's thinking about and caring for other people.

00:09:23.380 But there's a difference between altruism and collectivism.

00:09:28.120 And the problem with collectivism is that it requires the sacrifice, requires, right, the sacrifice of individuals for the sake of a group.

00:09:36.520 And that ideology, that moral sort of concept, if you will, I think has been developing slowly in our culture in various ways, in politics.

00:09:46.740 But politics is really just a reflection of what's going on in society more generally.

00:09:50.280 And I think the media has led to this. I think probably our influencing society, the society of influencers has led to this, this idea that we put value in people when they have a certain kind of reputation.

00:10:03.280 Anyway, I think this has been a slow burn and a slow growth, and we are seeing the apex of this now.

00:10:09.720 And if we suffer because of this now, honestly, it's our own fault.

00:10:13.040 I know you've published this book, My Choice, which you must be commended for writing so quickly, because in the grand scheme of things, this hasn't been a significant period of time that you've had to work on this.

00:10:23.600 Is your goal that you would be able to go back into the classroom at some point, that we will all just wake up and realize that this was just a terrible mistake in society?

00:10:34.040 Or is your view, if we tap into that pessimism you've explained you possess, and I think rightfully so, that academia is kind of lost now, and that any change you want to affect will have to take place outside of the academy?

00:10:46.580 I have no, I have no, I have no, I think that's well put Andrew, academia, mainstream academia is in my view lost, it's a sunken ship.

00:10:55.580 We are very fortunate, I think, in seeing a number of different novel, maybe I'd call them institutions developing, there's one in Austin right now, and a number of, you know, a number of instructors like myself, or former, or maybe they're still employed at universities, you know, for various reasons,

00:11:15.700 but who are disillusioned with the state of academia and the state of censorship in academic thinking, are very interested in developing new ways for students to learn, and students who are actually interested, not just in getting a degree from an institution that's really a corporation, but who actually want to learn,

00:11:36.700 have an understanding of history, have an understanding of history and where we came from, as a human species, and what all of the different options and ethics are, and what it means to become a free thinker, what it means to become a democratic citizen.

00:11:49.700 I mean, these are the things I thought our universities were trying to teach, these are the things I tried to teach.

00:11:55.700 I was punished for it, that's okay, you know, I don't want people to feel sorry for me, because what that did for me, and I hope for many other people, was to provide a litmus test to see where we're at in academia.

00:12:09.700 Right. I had a number of students from Western reach out to me yesterday, who I didn't even know existed prior to yesterday.

00:12:16.700 But they said that they have been trying to engage their professors with these kinds of questions that I've been asking for weeks now bordering on I guess a couple months, and they're not getting anywhere.

00:12:29.700 People just they they give them side glances, they they dismiss them, there's no kind of engagement. So, you know, again, my concern is not that they or I or we convince other people of our particular belief, but what we do convince them of is the importance of having open dialogue about these issues.

00:12:51.700 And so I, to be honest with you, Andrew, I will never work in in academia again, I don't have a desire to work in it in the in the way that it currently exists.

00:13:00.700 What I do think we need to do is to untether our most important ideas from the ivory towers that our institutions really are now.

00:13:10.700 And to allow them to I say this in the book, right, that we need to allow them to free float into society and come down.

00:13:18.700 I don't even I don't like that kind of hierarchical language.

00:13:21.700 But, you know, to come out of our universities and have these ideas in in true salon style exchanged over coffee at the local coffee shop and between families at the dinner table and we need people to feel like they can ask questions themselves, whoever they are, whatever their degrees are, their opinions are just as valid as the opinions of our so called experts or our health officials.

00:13:47.700 Do you find that you are and this is a dangerous question because I think people might not like the answer, but do you believe that you are part of a silent majority or do you believe that people like you and I that believe in personal freedom on these things are the minority now.

00:14:02.700 That's a such a hard question because whenever you're talking about belief, you are trying to guess at what's on the inside of somebody as opposed to just what they say or write, you know, and I think there's so much fear these days of social ostracization so much fear of, you know, losing one's job or being cast outside of society or worse, you know, being fined or arrested or penalized in some way.

00:14:29.700 So it's really hard to get an assessment of where people are.

00:14:32.700 So it's really hard to get an assessment of where people are at in their thinking.

00:14:33.700 So it's really hard to get an assessment of where people are at in their thinking.

00:14:34.700 My guess is that, yes, we're in the minority, but that there are many more people who have questions about these mandates than are than are willing to or feel free to ask them.

00:14:48.700 Right. And I, you know, in some sense, I can say whatever I want, I can ask whatever I want, because I've suffered the worst.

00:14:58.700 You know, people might not know this, but every day I get hate mail every day from all sources through email, through Instagram, through Twitter.

00:15:07.700 I can say whatever, society can't do any worse to me.

00:15:11.700 So I don't I'm not shackled by this fear of what could happen.

00:15:15.700 Right. And that, in some sense, is the best position to be in, because I've, you know, I've sort of embraced the most fearful thing.

00:15:23.700 And I want to say to people and it's OK, it's not great.

00:15:26.700 I'd rather live in a world in which, you know, someone was always kind and respectful and always asked, you know, oh, let me hear more about that.

00:15:34.700 You know, that's not the world in which we live in now.

00:15:37.700 I don't. That's probably not the world in which we've ever lived.

00:15:39.700 It's something for humans to aspire to, certainly.

00:15:42.700 But we should not feel as though the fact that we never attain it means it's not worth aspiring to.

00:15:49.700 I know of those critics, a lot of people have tried to paint you in that guilt by association sense of, oh, how dare you appear with Ezra Levant or Charles McVitie or whatever.

00:15:58.700 And I've never had much patience for that.

00:16:00.700 And in your book, you establish that you don't either, which I'm grateful for.

00:16:03.700 But I do want to ask you about the political implications of this in your life, because I know that the fight against vaccine mandates has been one generally taken up.

00:16:13.700 And you may disagree with this, but my belief is that it's generally taken up by people on the political right.

00:16:19.700 I know you've appeared with Ezra and you've also engaged with Maxime Bernier and you've been kind of put into that box, if you will, by a lot of your critics.

00:16:28.700 Is that a place you've ever imagined placing yourself?

00:16:31.700 And I don't know what your political leanings are or were prior to your explosion on the stage as it is.

00:16:37.700 But is that an identity you've ever taken on?

00:16:40.700 Yeah, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm very happy to say that I am willing to support any politician or any political party that respects individual choice.

00:16:54.700 And, and I don't, and when I say that, you know, that doesn't mean that, I mean, individual choice has become a synonym for selfishness these days, right?

00:17:02.700 If you defend individual choice, it means, oh, you're selfish and you don't care about other people.

00:17:06.700 That's a false dichotomy. I mean, the people I know who are fighting for freedom and fighting for liberty in our country today are the kindest, most generous, most giving, thoughtful people I have ever met.

00:17:22.700 I, you know, I say in the book that Ezra Levant is in, in many ways, a lightning rod in Canadian history.

00:17:30.700 He, he has been, he always will be.

00:17:33.700 Um, Ezra is, is one of the kindest, brightest, most thoughtful people I've ever met.

00:17:39.700 And I'm very proud to be working for him and everybody at the Democracy Fund.

00:17:43.700 Um, I, I wholeheartedly supported Maxine Bernier when he, uh, ran in our most recent election.

00:17:50.700 You know, I've had people say horrendous things to me about him.

00:17:54.700 Oh, I wouldn't want to live in a country run by Maxine Bernier.

00:17:56.700 And I say, well, why not point point me to the bit of his policy that concerns you.

00:18:01.700 Again, I find him to be incredibly thoughtful.

00:18:03.700 I've interviewed with him a couple of times now, and he always asks very good questions.

00:18:08.700 They're never rhetorical questions.

00:18:10.700 He's genuinely interested in, uh, in what I think about things.

00:18:14.700 I think he's a very comprehensive thinker, um, on the topic of, you know, sort of political, um, partisanship though.

00:18:21.700 It's been very interesting because when I've gone to events.

00:18:24.700 Sure.

00:18:25.700 There are a number of very far right thinking people there, but also people who would identify themselves as being very far thinking on the left.

00:18:34.700 Uh, at the last Whitby event, I went to a number of people came up to me at the end and said, you know, I used to vote liberal or I used to always vote the green party or, um, and now I don't anymore.

00:18:45.700 And I think that that's a testament to the fact that political thinking is, is very often circular, right?

00:18:50.700 So people on the far right and the far left, they have more in common than we might think.

00:18:55.700 And one thing that, that they tend to care about deeply is the largest feet spear for free personal action possible, as long as it doesn't harm other people.

00:19:06.700 And so I've had really interesting conversations with, um, people who, who have and continue to vote for the green party.

00:19:13.700 And, um, you know, it's, uh, and I'm willing to talk to anybody.

00:19:18.700 And I think that we need in society to be more aware of the fact that, um, when we talk to another person, they might have something to offer us.

00:19:27.700 We should, I posted on Instagram today that our Tuesday goal should be to listen to someone in order to understand and not just wait to reply or wait to pounce on them.

00:19:37.700 And I believe that really.

00:19:39.700 Yeah.

00:19:40.700 It's unfortunate though, in your own life that you've not seen that.

00:19:43.700 You talked about, uh, former colleagues of yours that were very quick to throw in some snark on Twitter.

00:19:49.700 People you've worked with in your, uh, your other, uh, job as, as an artist that I don't know if it's a job, but your passion, I guess, as an artist that, that have also kind of cut you off because of this.

00:19:59.700 So people are unwilling increasingly to engage in discussions with people they disagree with.

00:20:04.700 Totally true, Andrew.

00:20:05.700 But you know what?

00:20:06.700 The one thing I've learned from, you know, reading about and teaching ethics.

00:20:10.700 And I think just reflecting in my own life is that you, I mean, we say this as though it's a cliche, but you can't control what other people do.

00:20:19.700 And the lowering of their behavior should never act as justification for you to lower yours.

00:20:27.700 You know, um, I, the, the hateful comments that I get on Twitter and I, I never respond to, and I'll tell you why.

00:20:35.700 Um, it's because I'm not interested in engaging with, or having a debate with anyone who isn't interested in respectful exchange of ideas.

00:20:46.700 Um, I have also made a commitment, uh, when this book came out, I will not do an interview with any of the mainstream media outlets because of the way I was treated in September when my video came out.

00:21:02.700 Um, the reporting by those outlets, um, range from disrespectful to, um, uh, untrue.

00:21:11.700 And there would be, have to be a very unique set of circumstances for me to enter into that relationship again, you know?

00:21:17.700 Uh, and so we think we need to realize as individuals, as moral agents, that all we can control is what we do.

00:21:23.700 And I'm not going to start hurling hate out into the world and responding in kind just because that's what I I'm getting.

00:21:30.700 And anybody who's listening, who is, has, has done that to me and wants to do it again, I can take an unlimited amount of that.

00:21:39.700 So do your best.

00:21:40.700 And I will always respond as well as I can.

00:21:43.700 I'm not going to be perfect at it.

00:21:45.700 Some days I'm going to be more tired and more worn down than others, but I will never enter that arena with you.

00:21:51.700 Very well said.

00:21:53.700 And we're glad that you have, uh, been able to, uh, come on this show here.

00:21:56.700 The book by Professor Julie Panessi.

00:21:58.700 You're still professor to me.

00:22:00.700 My choice, the ethical case against COVID-19 vaccine mandates.

00:22:03.700 Uh, professor, thank you so much.

00:22:05.700 Congrats on the book and thank you for joining me.

00:22:07.700 Thank you, Andrew.

00:22:08.700 That was Professor Julie Panessi.

00:22:11.700 The book is something you can get at mychoicebook.ca, mychoicebook.ca.

00:22:16.700 It's not a terribly long book.

00:22:18.700 I think like 120 some odd pages, part memoir, part manifesto, but a lot of great material in there that you can use.

00:22:25.700 Not just to learn about vaccine mandates and about, uh, Professor Panessi, but also, uh, details you can arm yourself with if you are going to take on the uphill battle.

00:22:34.700 But the important battle of resisting these mandates in your own life, even just in private conversations.

00:22:39.700 So, uh, and still time to get it for Christmas, I believe, uh, they say on the website there, mychoicebook.ca.

00:22:45.700 And that does it for me.

00:22:46.700 We will be back in a couple days' time with more of Canada's most irreverent talk show.

00:22:51.700 This is the Andrew Lawton Show here on True North.

00:22:53.700 Thank you, God bless, and good day.

00:22:55.700 Thanks for listening to the Andrew Lawton Show.

00:22:57.700 Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.

00:23:03.700 www.tnc.news.com

Juno News - December 15, 2021

Fired ethics professor Julie Ponesse on the dangers of vaccine mandates

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