00:00:00.000Welcome to Canada's most irreverent talk show. This is The Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.
00:00:11.920Coming up, a look at vaccine mandates and individual choice with former ethics professor Julie Panessi.
00:00:19.800The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.
00:00:23.400Welcome to The Andrew Lawton Show. This is Canada's most irreverent talk show here on True North.
00:00:32.040We're going to do things a little bit differently on this show.
00:00:34.760We've been talking for months and months about the increasing rigidness and restrictiveness of vaccine mandates.
00:00:41.800We're going to today spotlight a woman who you are probably very familiar with by now.
00:00:46.460She shot to fame just a few months ago when speaking up about her unwillingness to comply with a vaccine mandate being imposed upon her by Huron University College,
00:00:57.100the affiliated college of Western University in London, Ontario.
00:01:01.940And that's where she was teaching for years as an ethics professor specializing in medical ethics,
00:01:07.140which is why she had a particularly astute opposition to vaccine mandates,
00:01:11.200which she tried to convey to her school's administration, who subsequently ignored everything she had to say.
00:01:17.580She launched a video which went viral in which she explained why she was taking the stand that she was.
00:02:34.200So I want to go back to the very basics here because one of the things that you've seen in the time since you went viral with that initial video,
00:02:41.980and you address it point blank in the book, is that you get caught up in this anti-vaxxer narrative when all that I've ever seen from you,
00:02:50.640and indeed all that is in the book, is not about opposition to vaccines, but opposition to vaccine mandates.
00:02:57.200Yet this conflation of the two, I'd say, has become one of the biggest problems in the discourse surrounding, I mean, not only your case, but the mandates themselves.
00:03:05.320This is such a complicated issue, and I don't even really know where to start with it.
00:03:11.040I mean, the term anti-vaxxer, I think, should become extinct immediately, if for no other reason than because it's slang.
00:03:19.120It's not a grammatically, you know, well-constructed term.
00:03:23.880And so to take a slang term like that and apply it to anyone is automatically derogatory, right, and automatically signals that you don't value the person that you're attaching that label to.
00:03:34.860So that's, like, one issue right off the bat, right?
00:03:37.000If you want to lump people together who have criticisms of this set of vaccines or all vaccines, then at least come up with a more respectful term, right?
00:03:52.380I mean, I don't know if I've made this clear or clear enough in the book or in previous interviews or appearances, but I am pro-choice on this issue.
00:04:02.700I think people, you know, in Canada, we have a long history of developing ethical policies and jurisprudence to support informed choice.
00:04:13.120But the key is that that choice has to be informed, and I can't tell you the number of people I talk to, very bright people still today, people who consider themselves informed because they read, you know, mainstream media, and they say,
00:04:25.500what are you talking about, there are no problems with these vaccines, and they're a panacea, they will end this pandemic, and I am slowing it down, right?
00:04:34.640And I think that's a reflection of the fact that they think these COVID vaccines are what we call sterilizing, which they're not, right?
00:04:41.460And so there's a lot of, and I really hate to use this term, misinformation, I think there's a lot of confusion over the scientific facts, and that's giving rise to mislabeling of people, and there's a lot of harm coming from that.
00:04:57.020There have been a number of professors, I'd say very few, compared to what they should be doing, but a number of professors who have spoken out against these vaccine mandates at universities.
00:05:08.160But what's interesting in your case is that your expertise is specifically tied to the idea of vaccine mandates, with a background in ethics and specifically medical ethics.
00:05:22.540Well, that's true, that's true, but let's take you at your word and your resume at its word for the time being here, and you've actually pointed out that the university that you worked for, Huron, part of Western University in London, had paid you to be an ethicist, had paid you to engage in the very discussions that led you to take the stand that you did.
00:05:43.520And it's amazing how that scholarship they expect from you ends when they're trying to impose this mandate, and the government is trying to impose this mandate.
00:05:51.300I think you, I think you, I think you have framed that explanation very well.
00:05:56.180There's a kind, there's a kind of irony there, and possibly a sort of hypocrisy.
00:06:01.640I'm going to correct you for a minute and say, I don't think, you know, in hindsight, I don't think they were paying me to be critically reflective and to follow my own reasoning to its logical conclusions.
00:06:13.940I think they were paying me and every other instructor they hired to follow a certain narrative, and it's become very clear to me being outside of academia now, in general, not just at Huron, but in general looking in, that you can think anything you want.
00:06:28.980You can write anything you want, you can say anything you want, as long as it's within a very narrow spectrum, slice of a broader spectrum, right?
00:06:40.500You cannot question, for example, the pro-choice movement when it comes to abortion.
00:06:46.280You cannot question certain gender issues at universities these days, and you cannot question the vaccine mandates.
00:06:54.560These are things that will get you cancelled and fired.
00:06:58.120So if we want to say that our universities are, you know, sort of pinnacles of critical thinking, well, we have to reinterpret, in my view, what we mean by that.
00:07:09.280And what we mean by that is you can think freely within a certain prescribed range of opinions and beliefs.
00:07:19.760One thing that I find quite interesting is that for a lot of folks, certainly in Canada, the vaccine mandate, the discussion of mandatory vaccination at a population level that we're seeing in places like Austria and the Czech Republic and Greece, these blindsided a lot of people.
00:07:36.440And they have left a lot of people wondering, how did this come about in, you know, my precious Canada, my precious Austria, whatever the case may be.
00:07:43.560You're very unique in the sense that you saw this mandate coming from a mile away, even before vaccination was being spread out.
00:07:51.780Explain that to me, because a lot of people did not think it would get where it has gotten.
00:07:57.320You know, I'm well known, I think, now in certain circles for saying the following thing, which is that whoever I speak with these days about human nature, I am always the most pessimistic in the pair.
00:08:10.780And often the person on the other side will say, no, no, I think you're just realistic, not pessimistic.
00:08:19.000I think it would be fair to say that where we've gotten, and I think where we're going to be, and I don't really mean to scare anyone, but I think we're looking at a Canada in the next few months where employment mandates will be the least of our problems.
00:08:34.240Right. And what has gotten us to that point is not what's happened over the last 18 months, as though it emerged ex nihilo or out of nothing or out of a vacuum.
00:08:44.980Right. But my belief is that we have been putting in place the ideological, the sort of the social virtues, the political devices in place in our society for many decades that have gotten to us to this point.
00:09:04.320Right. And I've spoken about this in other interviews, but one of those is this collectivist idea.
00:09:09.600And I think a lot of people will say, well, collectivism sounds pretty good because it sounds like we're in it together and we're working for our, you know, our brothers and sisters and we're helping each other out.
00:09:19.200Well, that's altruism, right? That's thinking about and caring for other people.
00:09:23.380But there's a difference between altruism and collectivism.
00:09:28.120And the problem with collectivism is that it requires the sacrifice, requires, right, the sacrifice of individuals for the sake of a group.
00:09:36.520And that ideology, that moral sort of concept, if you will, I think has been developing slowly in our culture in various ways, in politics.
00:09:46.740But politics is really just a reflection of what's going on in society more generally.
00:09:50.280And I think the media has led to this. I think probably our influencing society, the society of influencers has led to this, this idea that we put value in people when they have a certain kind of reputation.
00:10:03.280Anyway, I think this has been a slow burn and a slow growth, and we are seeing the apex of this now.
00:10:09.720And if we suffer because of this now, honestly, it's our own fault.
00:10:13.040I know you've published this book, My Choice, which you must be commended for writing so quickly, because in the grand scheme of things, this hasn't been a significant period of time that you've had to work on this.
00:10:23.600Is your goal that you would be able to go back into the classroom at some point, that we will all just wake up and realize that this was just a terrible mistake in society?
00:10:34.040Or is your view, if we tap into that pessimism you've explained you possess, and I think rightfully so, that academia is kind of lost now, and that any change you want to affect will have to take place outside of the academy?
00:10:46.580I have no, I have no, I have no, I think that's well put Andrew, academia, mainstream academia is in my view lost, it's a sunken ship.
00:10:55.580We are very fortunate, I think, in seeing a number of different novel, maybe I'd call them institutions developing, there's one in Austin right now, and a number of, you know, a number of instructors like myself, or former, or maybe they're still employed at universities, you know, for various reasons,
00:11:15.700but who are disillusioned with the state of academia and the state of censorship in academic thinking, are very interested in developing new ways for students to learn, and students who are actually interested, not just in getting a degree from an institution that's really a corporation, but who actually want to learn,
00:11:36.700have an understanding of history, have an understanding of history and where we came from, as a human species, and what all of the different options and ethics are, and what it means to become a free thinker, what it means to become a democratic citizen.
00:11:49.700I mean, these are the things I thought our universities were trying to teach, these are the things I tried to teach.
00:11:55.700I was punished for it, that's okay, you know, I don't want people to feel sorry for me, because what that did for me, and I hope for many other people, was to provide a litmus test to see where we're at in academia.
00:12:09.700Right. I had a number of students from Western reach out to me yesterday, who I didn't even know existed prior to yesterday.
00:12:16.700But they said that they have been trying to engage their professors with these kinds of questions that I've been asking for weeks now bordering on I guess a couple months, and they're not getting anywhere.
00:12:29.700People just they they give them side glances, they they dismiss them, there's no kind of engagement. So, you know, again, my concern is not that they or I or we convince other people of our particular belief, but what we do convince them of is the importance of having open dialogue about these issues.
00:12:51.700And so I, to be honest with you, Andrew, I will never work in in academia again, I don't have a desire to work in it in the in the way that it currently exists.
00:13:00.700What I do think we need to do is to untether our most important ideas from the ivory towers that our institutions really are now.
00:13:10.700And to allow them to I say this in the book, right, that we need to allow them to free float into society and come down.
00:13:18.700I don't even I don't like that kind of hierarchical language.
00:13:21.700But, you know, to come out of our universities and have these ideas in in true salon style exchanged over coffee at the local coffee shop and between families at the dinner table and we need people to feel like they can ask questions themselves, whoever they are, whatever their degrees are, their opinions are just as valid as the opinions of our so called experts or our health officials.
00:13:47.700Do you find that you are and this is a dangerous question because I think people might not like the answer, but do you believe that you are part of a silent majority or do you believe that people like you and I that believe in personal freedom on these things are the minority now.
00:14:02.700That's a such a hard question because whenever you're talking about belief, you are trying to guess at what's on the inside of somebody as opposed to just what they say or write, you know, and I think there's so much fear these days of social ostracization so much fear of, you know, losing one's job or being cast outside of society or worse, you know, being fined or arrested or penalized in some way.
00:14:29.700So it's really hard to get an assessment of where people are.
00:14:32.700So it's really hard to get an assessment of where people are at in their thinking.
00:14:33.700So it's really hard to get an assessment of where people are at in their thinking.
00:14:34.700My guess is that, yes, we're in the minority, but that there are many more people who have questions about these mandates than are than are willing to or feel free to ask them.
00:14:48.700Right. And I, you know, in some sense, I can say whatever I want, I can ask whatever I want, because I've suffered the worst.
00:14:58.700You know, people might not know this, but every day I get hate mail every day from all sources through email, through Instagram, through Twitter.
00:15:07.700I can say whatever, society can't do any worse to me.
00:15:11.700So I don't I'm not shackled by this fear of what could happen.
00:15:15.700Right. And that, in some sense, is the best position to be in, because I've, you know, I've sort of embraced the most fearful thing.
00:15:23.700And I want to say to people and it's OK, it's not great.
00:15:26.700I'd rather live in a world in which, you know, someone was always kind and respectful and always asked, you know, oh, let me hear more about that.
00:15:34.700You know, that's not the world in which we live in now.
00:15:37.700I don't. That's probably not the world in which we've ever lived.
00:15:39.700It's something for humans to aspire to, certainly.
00:15:42.700But we should not feel as though the fact that we never attain it means it's not worth aspiring to.
00:15:49.700I know of those critics, a lot of people have tried to paint you in that guilt by association sense of, oh, how dare you appear with Ezra Levant or Charles McVitie or whatever.
00:15:58.700And I've never had much patience for that.
00:16:00.700And in your book, you establish that you don't either, which I'm grateful for.
00:16:03.700But I do want to ask you about the political implications of this in your life, because I know that the fight against vaccine mandates has been one generally taken up.
00:16:13.700And you may disagree with this, but my belief is that it's generally taken up by people on the political right.
00:16:19.700I know you've appeared with Ezra and you've also engaged with Maxime Bernier and you've been kind of put into that box, if you will, by a lot of your critics.
00:16:28.700Is that a place you've ever imagined placing yourself?
00:16:31.700And I don't know what your political leanings are or were prior to your explosion on the stage as it is.
00:16:37.700But is that an identity you've ever taken on?
00:16:40.700Yeah, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm very happy to say that I am willing to support any politician or any political party that respects individual choice.
00:16:54.700And, and I don't, and when I say that, you know, that doesn't mean that, I mean, individual choice has become a synonym for selfishness these days, right?
00:17:02.700If you defend individual choice, it means, oh, you're selfish and you don't care about other people.
00:17:06.700That's a false dichotomy. I mean, the people I know who are fighting for freedom and fighting for liberty in our country today are the kindest, most generous, most giving, thoughtful people I have ever met.
00:17:22.700I, you know, I say in the book that Ezra Levant is in, in many ways, a lightning rod in Canadian history.
00:18:25.700There are a number of very far right thinking people there, but also people who would identify themselves as being very far thinking on the left.
00:18:34.700Uh, at the last Whitby event, I went to a number of people came up to me at the end and said, you know, I used to vote liberal or I used to always vote the green party or, um, and now I don't anymore.
00:18:45.700And I think that that's a testament to the fact that political thinking is, is very often circular, right?
00:18:50.700So people on the far right and the far left, they have more in common than we might think.
00:18:55.700And one thing that, that they tend to care about deeply is the largest feet spear for free personal action possible, as long as it doesn't harm other people.
00:19:06.700And so I've had really interesting conversations with, um, people who, who have and continue to vote for the green party.
00:19:13.700And, um, you know, it's, uh, and I'm willing to talk to anybody.
00:19:18.700And I think that we need in society to be more aware of the fact that, um, when we talk to another person, they might have something to offer us.
00:19:27.700We should, I posted on Instagram today that our Tuesday goal should be to listen to someone in order to understand and not just wait to reply or wait to pounce on them.
00:19:40.700It's unfortunate though, in your own life that you've not seen that.
00:19:43.700You talked about, uh, former colleagues of yours that were very quick to throw in some snark on Twitter.
00:19:49.700People you've worked with in your, uh, your other, uh, job as, as an artist that I don't know if it's a job, but your passion, I guess, as an artist that, that have also kind of cut you off because of this.
00:19:59.700So people are unwilling increasingly to engage in discussions with people they disagree with.
00:20:06.700The one thing I've learned from, you know, reading about and teaching ethics.
00:20:10.700And I think just reflecting in my own life is that you, I mean, we say this as though it's a cliche, but you can't control what other people do.
00:20:19.700And the lowering of their behavior should never act as justification for you to lower yours.
00:20:27.700You know, um, I, the, the hateful comments that I get on Twitter and I, I never respond to, and I'll tell you why.
00:20:35.700Um, it's because I'm not interested in engaging with, or having a debate with anyone who isn't interested in respectful exchange of ideas.
00:20:46.700Um, I have also made a commitment, uh, when this book came out, I will not do an interview with any of the mainstream media outlets because of the way I was treated in September when my video came out.
00:21:02.700Um, the reporting by those outlets, um, range from disrespectful to, um, uh, untrue.
00:21:11.700And there would be, have to be a very unique set of circumstances for me to enter into that relationship again, you know?
00:21:17.700Uh, and so we think we need to realize as individuals, as moral agents, that all we can control is what we do.
00:21:23.700And I'm not going to start hurling hate out into the world and responding in kind just because that's what I I'm getting.
00:21:30.700And anybody who's listening, who is, has, has done that to me and wants to do it again, I can take an unlimited amount of that.
00:22:18.700I think like 120 some odd pages, part memoir, part manifesto, but a lot of great material in there that you can use.
00:22:25.700Not just to learn about vaccine mandates and about, uh, Professor Panessi, but also, uh, details you can arm yourself with if you are going to take on the uphill battle.
00:22:34.700But the important battle of resisting these mandates in your own life, even just in private conversations.
00:22:39.700So, uh, and still time to get it for Christmas, I believe, uh, they say on the website there, mychoicebook.ca.