Juno News - Former addict exposes government funded opioid crisis

00:00:00.000 for our next guest we are joined by adam zivo he has just released a new documentary called

00:00:10.620 government heroine he's also the founder and director of the center for responsible drug

00:00:15.020 policy we're also going to be joined by callum bagdahl if you've watched government heroine

00:00:20.080 which i do suggest you give it a go after this show he is featured prominently as one of the

00:00:24.600 main interviews and he's going to share a little bit about his story today as a recovered addict

00:00:29.000 adam and callum thank you so much for joining me today yeah thanks for having us so i want to just

00:00:35.140 start by touching on your documentary um adam government heroine callum you are featured

00:00:40.620 prominently as one of the main as one of the main interviews and you share a little bit about your

00:00:44.480 stories of recovered addicts and one of the things that struck me when you were talking is by all

00:00:48.740 accounts you seem like you have a loving family you know you seem you know fairly well to do and

00:00:53.920 you didn't exactly strike me as someone who would fall i think for a lot of us canadians when we

00:00:57.780 think of people who are addicts you know you didn't strike me as someone who would fit that category

00:01:02.280 you're obviously surrounded by a lot of people who cared about you and i think in the end that

00:01:05.960 was what eventually pulled you out of your addiction but i think it speaks to the fact that

00:01:11.100 this crisis is really impacting people we don't think of initially or we would initially suspect as

00:01:16.560 being drug addicts can you share a little bit about that if that's sort of your understanding of

00:01:20.220 it as well when we hear about some of the experts who are saying 15 and 16 year olds

00:01:24.040 are becoming addicted to government opioids um is this crisis really changing the narrative on who

00:01:31.560 is becoming addicted to drugs yeah like uh it definitely is uh i remember when i was in high

00:01:37.980 school i didn't really have the chance to get um addicted to percocets or anything like that um

00:01:44.480 because they would come around very infrequently like you might have a friend who had his wisdom

00:01:50.540 teeth pulled out or maybe he like broke his arm and that was it you know nothing major you know

00:01:57.100 they're only getting like a one month supply maybe less so there was a very low chance that like you

00:02:03.240 know you would have anybody who could get you any right and until i like got to college um i kind of

00:02:11.180 you know got in touch with a guy uh i was just hanging out with him but uh he was buying

00:02:18.080 percocets and stuff and they were extremely easy to get um if you had the right guy and the right

00:02:25.160 amount of money they were expensive though and um so i never really focused too much on that um

00:02:32.820 because they were just so expensive um you know like you might get you know one time you're able to

00:02:39.380 buy a bunch of them for less than five dollars each a hundred or more but like um it's very infrequent

00:02:46.560 because they you know they're they're kind of hard to get and a lot of them that are really cheap

00:02:51.640 are counterfeits so you want to like avoid those um and you know uh but i was like really amazed at

00:03:00.440 how available the safe supply pills were like it almost basically like in my addict mind at the time

00:03:08.280 it was my like saving grace because i couldn't afford uh percocets or oxys anymore and um they

00:03:16.420 were becoming harder and harder to come by you know like uh i would have to you know tell somebody

00:03:22.340 who i knew like multiple days in advance before i could get it and it was always like a you know a

00:03:29.080 toss-up of whether he was going to have it or not and um when when the safe supply you know really

00:03:37.560 expanded because i didn't hear too much about it until it really started to expand uh it was so easy

00:03:44.600 that um i stopped even going to my dealers i would just go straight to the people who had the

00:03:50.180 prescriptions and i knew that it would be more advantageous for them too because if they trade with

00:03:56.100 the dealer they're not getting much value for their money right they're only basically trading for

00:04:01.500 product and they're you know they don't really know the full price of the pills because they're

00:04:07.360 getting them for free or very very very reduced cost to the point where they're willing to sell it for

00:04:13.500 a dollar each you know and that kind of you know that kind of amount the supply and the cheapness of

00:04:21.060 it makes it so that you know it's going to become more available you know if i was a dealer and i had

00:04:28.980 a bunch of guys that i was selling fentanyl to who owed me money right and they were all on safe supply

00:04:36.520 pills i would say hey i'll pick up your scripts every week and then i'll give you you know um i'll take

00:04:43.200 you know i don't know five hundred dollars off your debt because i would know that the fentanyl cost me

00:04:49.200 very little money but i could mark up those safe supply pills from you know the basically zero cost

00:04:55.540 that i'm getting it for to all the way up to like 20 to 25 dollars a pill and sell it at schools like

00:05:03.140 colleges or at high school parties right those are the guys that are going to be paying uh you know 10

00:05:09.980 or 15 dollars a pill or more um because high school even when i was younger when pills weren't really a

00:05:17.800 big thing xanax was really on the scene in high school everybody was talking about xanax and

00:05:23.460 everybody was getting xanax and pills are very like it's it's interesting how like normalized they are i

00:05:32.260 guess so that it makes it easier for people to want to do it you know uh because it's like oh my mom

00:05:38.900 takes this for her her uh anxiety or my dad takes this for his back pain you know

00:05:44.200 and callum as i mentioned before when you talked about in the documentary you have this moment where

00:05:50.400 you say you know one of the reasons that i was pushed into recovery is because i could see the pain

00:05:56.240 in my loved one's eyes as i would lie to them time and time again and eventually that drove me

00:06:01.820 to wanting to to seek treatment so would you then ultimately say that it was the fact that you did have

00:06:07.900 a loving family that was the reason that you decided to seek treatment for your addiction

00:06:11.820 yeah a lot of it too is that you know like uh that's one thing that you know um it really does

00:06:19.940 make a difference and the sad thing about like uh a lot of guys that i had come into contact with

00:06:26.080 um and gals that were all you know addicted to fentanyl but selling me their safe supply pills 0.86

00:06:32.860 essentially like you know uh they were at their last you know last end of the road basically they

00:06:40.780 their family you know had turned their backs on them because they gave them reason to right

00:06:45.200 addiction is very it's very deceptive it makes you you know um it makes you want things that you don't

00:06:52.300 really want it makes you do things you don't want to do it makes you go back on your word it makes you

00:06:58.160 you know unable to basically show up for things you need to show up for you know you become more

00:07:05.320 of like you know and if you don't if you don't basically if you don't um allow your family to

00:07:12.420 help eventually they may depending on the family too they may kind of you know be like okay i'm done

00:07:20.120 dealing with this for a while because i don't know what to do right it's very hard to deal with um

00:07:24.900 because i've had you know i've i've i've had other family members with other issues right uh you know

00:07:31.340 even alcoholism you know in canada is a big thing too and it's very hard to tell somebody to not do

00:07:38.320 something when their mind is really really set on it and the the very powerful thing about addiction

00:07:43.720 is that it you know you build your whole kind of i guess uh way of life around it when you've been

00:07:52.220 doing whatever you're doing for long enough it becomes a part of you almost you know and

00:07:58.520 yeah sorry go ahead oh no i i just kind of was thinking like um at the same time too uh you know

00:08:07.440 uh the the environments that come with stuff that's as intense as fentanyl it can really hurt

00:08:15.280 the family too you know like i was lucky i never got into it but um you know i saw how worried my

00:08:22.840 family was you know when i was gone and they knew i was you know going to places where i shouldn't be

00:08:29.420 because you know let's say like i fell asleep they would open my bag and like they would see like you

00:08:35.440 know like a switchblade or something because i i did not feel safe in these environments and i knew that

00:08:42.280 if anybody felt that they could take advantage of me they would it can get very dangerous especially

00:08:48.880 when everybody is has their back up against the wall you know with fentanyl it really does do that

00:08:55.360 you know it makes it so that everybody's on their last dime today they're on their last leg they're

00:09:00.920 you know they're gonna have to make a last ditch effort to make money and it makes it very volatile too

00:09:06.000 you know and and it makes people you know do things they don't want to like steal you know

00:09:12.340 they you know it's it's just bad all around right it hurts everybody and sometimes for the family it

00:09:20.400 gets too painful you know and you know it just really hurt me to to be like the source of that pain

00:09:27.980 you know it kind of took me a while to really think about it but uh eventually you know when i had

00:09:35.640 when i'd seen like the way my parents you know when they talked to me and you know when they saw

00:09:41.760 the things i was doing you know i could see the pain in their eyes and it was really you know it

00:09:48.760 really hurts because that that wasn't me i don't want to hurt people i don't want to hurt my family

00:09:53.420 right but um you know it does it does kind of take something that really gets to you to kind of pull

00:10:01.500 you out of it you know so with that in mind adam what is your response to something like what

00:10:07.500 they're pitching in alberta where alberta premier daniel smith has said that she would like to

00:10:11.520 pass legislation that would essentially force addicts into recovery if that's what their family

00:10:17.420 desires would you be in favor of something like that it's still considered quite controversial even

00:10:21.100 among conservatives especially given what we just came out of during the covid 19 where we saw a lot

00:10:25.780 of coerced vaccination what would your response be to a policy like that

00:10:28.860 i think it's a good idea in theory and i think that uh while some people have said that it would

00:10:34.480 not be able to survive a constitutional challenge i think that there's precedent here we do

00:10:38.720 involuntarily institutionalize people who are going through mental health crises but the big

00:10:44.340 question here is whether or not there would be capacity to absorb people who uh need to be put

00:10:49.560 into involuntary treatment in many parts of canada there is so little addiction treatment capacity

00:10:55.160 that people who voluntarily seek out treatment cannot get help and this is why marshall smith who

00:11:02.180 is daniel smith's chief of staff and who has been the big architect of alberta's recovery oriented

00:11:06.840 system has actually cautioned other provinces to go very carefully into the forced treatment space

00:11:13.980 so he recently chimed in uh when the bc government said they were going to explore involuntary treatment

00:11:20.480 and he emphasized that you need to spend years building out your treatment capacity so that you

00:11:26.040 actually have spaces to put people when you want to force them into treatment against their will

00:11:30.560 now from my understanding the evidence-based for forced addiction treatment is inconclusive some people

00:11:36.280 have said that it doesn't work some people have said that it works uh what i'm hearing from the

00:11:40.000 addiction physician who i speak to right now is that they're not sure either way what we can say

00:11:45.320 though is that even if mandatory treatment has a low success rate that is better than no success rate

00:11:52.460 it is better to put someone into a treatment option that may save their life five percent of the time

00:11:57.240 and to put them into that treatment option again and again and again understanding that while they're

00:12:01.700 in treatment they're no longer harming others than to simply abandon them onto the streets and allow

00:12:06.960 them to destroy themselves while posing a threat to general society yeah i think alberta is doing things a 0.90

00:12:13.420 lot differently than some of the other province so it'll be interesting to see the evidence coming

00:12:16.700 out of the province over the next few years whether some of these processes like forced treatment end

00:12:20.940 up working we might have more evidence on that within you know 10 to 15 years um adam we actually

00:12:25.860 have a clip of your documentary let's play that now so viewers can get a sense of what to expect when

00:12:31.060 they go watch government heroin uh hey uh i'm callum bagnell i'm a student at fanshawe but i also

00:12:38.060 uh was a drug addict for a while and i did end up being addicted to safe supply drugs for a while i was

00:12:46.220 taking percocets oxys but then it got too expensive around 2021 in that time i got connected with somebody

00:12:56.140 through a job who lived at a um one of those buildings where they have post homeless people they

00:13:03.660 were able to live in this building with income geared rent he told me hey in this new building

00:13:09.100 i'm living in there's loads of people that are on these safe supply drugs at first i didn't believe

00:13:14.380 it i was like there's no way that on on that scale people are getting hundreds of pills a day or close

00:13:20.140 to 100 pills a day i got numbers and contacts for safe supply pills and i was able to pick up

00:13:27.580 safe supply drugs much cheaper than oxys or percocets so adam this issue came on my radar first with aaron

00:13:36.140 gunn's work canada is dying and vancouver is dying i know a lot of my viewers have seen those and i

00:13:40.860 encourage everyone who i talked to to go watch those documentaries so what were you seeking to do with

00:13:45.660 government heroine um that was different than what we already saw um and how did you hope to kind

00:13:50.540 of further expand on this issue well so i've been reporting on safer supply diversion since about

00:13:56.860 may of 2023 and i've written about 50 articles on this issue about how safe supply drugs are being

00:14:02.700 diverted on mass to the streets unfortunately many of the advocates that support safe supply

00:14:09.100 they say that this is all disinformation they say that there is no evidence that this is happening

00:14:13.420 which is really unfortunate because i've interviewed dozens of addiction physicians who say that this is

00:14:16.940 happening i've interviewed a large number of former drug users who say this is happening i've you

00:14:21.100 know found countless examples of this trafficking happening online uh and although the provincial

00:14:29.180 government in bc is slowly uh beginning to admit that this is a problem federal government continues

00:14:34.380 to deny any issue whatsoever because i mean let's be honest their political future is tied to this

00:14:39.740 program it's really embarrassing if the signature addiction policy that you championed for years

00:14:45.260 uh is actually a disaster that is getting kids hooked on opioids so i have interviewed like you know

00:14:51.020 many former drug users who have either accessed diverted safe for supply or know other people

00:14:56.220 who have accessed diverted safe for supply but because there is such a crushing stigma against addiction

00:15:01.340 many of these people don't want to go on record and so i either have to only use their first names

00:15:05.740 or use pseudonyms i can't include any photographs of them and what that means is that canadians don't have

00:15:11.820 an opportunity to fully understand the stakes involved here and the harms of safer supply because

00:15:17.100 in a sense the victims are hidden behind a veil the details photographs videos that impart vivid

00:15:23.900 authenticity into the storytelling is missing here and this has allowed many of these safer supply

00:15:29.180 advocates to con to convince many canadians that this is not a real problem so when callum reached

00:15:35.180 out to me about two three months ago and shared his story and said that he was willing to go on record

00:15:39.980 and he was willing to go on video i saw this as a very powerful opportunity to show canadians what is

00:15:46.220 actually happening because when you watch someone and hear someone describe their personal experiences

00:15:52.940 and you you know do the same with their with their mother and with their doctor it's far harder to say

00:15:58.780 that there is no problem and i do know that aaron gunn has interviewed people who have been harmed by safer

00:16:04.140 supply as well the difference between this work and his is once again that callum is on record

00:16:09.660 and that the length of the interview in detail that we go into his life is uh greater than what we've

00:16:15.260 seen in previous documentaries though i imagine that aaron gunn will probably release more work in

00:16:19.820 the future that will further expand on this story when you talk about the government success really

00:16:26.540 being tied to this program i mean there's more evidence coming out every day of how much of a

00:16:30.380 failure this policy has been with people like callum speaking out although admittedly as you mentioned

00:16:34.300 not always putting their names and faces to the story what's it going to take to see a change is it really

00:16:38.780 just one of those things like with so many other things in canada right now where we're waiting for

00:16:42.540 a change in government so there's two sides so first of all there needs to be a change in government and

00:16:46.700 we see this in bc we're in the lead up to the bc election next month the bc ndp have backtracked on

00:16:54.140 a large number of safer supply policies because they see that it's become a political liability

00:16:59.180 and that their polling numbers are slumping and that voters are defecting on mass of the conservatives

00:17:03.900 the bc conservatives only had two percent of the vote about a year and a half ago now they have

00:17:08.060 44 approximately 40 they're running neck and neck with the bc ndp and what that means is that all

00:17:13.820 of a sudden decriminalization is off the table crack pipe vending machines off the table uh safer

00:17:20.300 bathrooms where about public washrooms are converted into overdose prevention sites that's off the table

00:17:26.140 because premier eby knows that if he doesn't pivot that he's going to lose his government so i would

00:17:32.620 imagine that you know the the federal liberals will have to go with a similar kind of reckoning in

00:17:37.420 about a year or so as well now the second route of course is the legal route with lawsuits so in bc

00:17:44.220 the family of a young girl 13 years old who died from addiction after developing an opioid addiction due to

00:17:50.780 safer supply uh so her family is launching a class action lawsuit against the bc government and a few other

00:17:56.700 stakeholders as well and the friends of that girl who you know developed opioid addictions but did not die

00:18:02.140 but are in recovery are part of that lawsuit so i think that's something that will pressure

00:18:08.140 governments into changing their policies and also will pressure prescribers into not prescribing safer

00:18:14.540 supply because they know that they risk getting sued now safer supply is also a provincial matter

00:18:21.900 because healthcare falls under provincial jurisdiction the federal government has funded safer supply programs

00:18:27.420 and it has created some exemptions that allow for the prescribing of safer supply drugs but fundamentally

00:18:33.660 if you prescribe safer supply in ontario for example that goes through our provincial healthcare

00:18:38.620 system it is dispensed through our pharmacies and then built to ohip so provincial governments do

00:18:44.460 have a role to play here the alberta government made it functionally illegal to prescribe safer supply

00:18:49.820 they did face some lawsuits and they were forced to continue providing safer supply to i believe one person

00:18:55.980 ontario could go down that same route but the problem is that from my understanding they are concerned

00:19:01.900 about the legal challenges there and are trying to find a way to legally block uh access to safer supply

00:19:09.180 without getting stuck in a quagmire of of lawsuits so even if let's say you know next year we have an election

00:19:18.220 the liberal government's toppled we have a conservative government that wants to end safe supply we're essentially

00:19:22.460 going to be stuck with a lot of addicts who are going to need help we've talked a little bit about

00:19:26.380 what alberta is doing is different they're really being their leadership and and they have sort of a

00:19:31.100 pilot of treatment centers they've spent hundreds of millions of dollars on these recovery centers

00:19:36.220 haven't really seen that same level of investment in ontario so what do other governments need to do

00:19:41.980 across canada we've talked about alberta do other provinces like ontario need to follow alberta's lead

00:19:47.260 what are we going to essentially do with all these addicts as you've mentioned there's already an issue of

00:19:50.700 there not being enough treatment centers for people who do want treatment so do you see that being a

00:19:55.500 crisis in the coming years i'd say so and i think the thing is that on the ontario government the ford

00:20:00.700 government needs to have more political will here i know that the minister of mental health and

00:20:04.940 addiction michael tabolo is very competent you know he's a psychologist with a background in addiction

00:20:10.620 he understands the studies he's pushing for change what i haven't seen in my reporting is a significant

00:20:17.980 uh will for change from the premier's office sometimes it feels like they're sweeping this under

00:20:23.740 the rug or not paying too much attention and i think they're able to do this for two reasons a they're

00:20:28.540 able to just they're able to simply blame trudeau and therefore they're offloading the political

00:20:33.420 costs of their inaction a great example of this is a letter that ford wrote to trudeau or rather to

00:20:38.700 the federal government a few months ago where he said we want you to stop funding these safer supply

00:20:43.500 programs we have no idea how much hydromorphone which is an opioid as potent as heroin is being

00:20:49.180 flooding is flooding into our communities because of this program well that's not actually true

00:20:53.820 because hydromorphone is once again paid for through ohib so the provincial government should

00:20:59.180 have that data and that letter essentially offloaded all responsibility for safer supplier rather fighting

00:21:04.940 safer supply onto the federal government and because of that it seems like the four governments said well

00:21:10.300 we've washed our hands of this we've done what we could when that's not the case i also think that

00:21:14.620 the ford government is very comfortable politically i mean their polling numbers are great and right now

00:21:19.580 the ontario liberals and ontario ndp are in shambles and i think that's created a sense of complacency

00:21:25.020 uh because the ford government doesn't have to worry about losing the next election it hasn't felt that

00:21:31.020 much pressure to actually address the safer supply issue all they do is blame someone else when they

00:21:36.700 should be getting these drugs off the street adam for people who want to watch your documentary and

00:21:43.100 learn more about your work where can they go well i mean if you want to watch the documentary you can

00:21:47.420 always go on youtube and just google government heroin full movie you have to do the full movie piece

00:21:52.220 otherwise you're gonna get a whole bunch of other stuff about government heroin um and you can always

00:21:55.900 follow me on x so i'm adam zivo but my x handle is zivo adam that's z i v with a v o uh and you can always

00:22:05.100 read me in the national post i'm i'm always there you know at least once a week talking about drugs and

00:22:09.340 other issues adam and callum thank you both so much could i add one small thing before we end it

00:22:17.580 go ahead um and i was saying you know like with the uh trying to close the safe supply clinics you'll

00:22:23.340 have a lot of addicts that are you know still they've been either taking the safe supply or they

00:22:29.500 rely on it to not go into withdrawals and like what i could say to that is that we already have

00:22:36.140 the medications even before safe supply program was really rolled out we have methadone we have

00:22:41.660 suboxone we got newer ones like sublicade which is a shot where they give you into your um your fat

00:22:47.820 cells in your stomach and it lasts for the whole month you don't even have to go back another time

00:22:53.260 you get one shot and you're good um they've got even um strips of suboxone that you can put under

00:22:59.820 your tongue there's so many uh and and they work well you know like i think of uh the reason why you

00:23:07.180 know safe supply was a thing was it it's it's hard to get addicts to want to take suboxone or methadone

00:23:14.380 because you know um you're not going to be getting high from suboxone unless you're taking a dose that's

00:23:19.660 too high for you or uh with methadone you know even though it could get you high it's heavily

00:23:25.340 controlled you have to go to the clinic like every morning for you know probably more than a year to

00:23:31.420 build up enough rapport to bring back carry medications home you know um and i think you know

00:23:39.500 yes it is hard to go down that route but ultimately right what what is easy in life you know the best

00:23:46.140 things in life are always hard and like uh for me like suboxone has really saved my life right the

00:23:54.540 whole point is to not be getting high anymore like the high is what you brought you in you need to get

00:24:00.940 out of that because it deceives you right you don't want to be getting high because it it takes

00:24:06.300 you away from what you really need to be doing in life you know and that's kind of what recovery

00:24:11.340 is about you know just living without needing to get high colin thank you so much yeah thank you

Juno News - October 01, 2024

Former addict exposes government funded opioid crisis

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