Juno News - Former privacy commissioner Ann Cavoukian on vaccine passports and erosion of privacy

00:00:00.000 you're tuned in to the andrew lawton show

00:00:05.880 we are back this is the andrew lawton show here on true north obviously this show has i don't want

00:00:16.140 to say devolved because as i mentioned earlier these are important issues and i think if political

00:00:20.400 leaders aren't taking them up certainly we need to in the public sphere and in media independent

00:00:26.200 media all of that but i do want to talk about vaccine mandates and vaccine passwords from a

00:00:30.880 different perspective here we touched last week on what's happening in europe and this migration

00:00:36.040 towards what a lot of people fear is becoming a surveillance state it's not just about the

00:00:41.660 segregation of society based on vaccination status but the implications of having to show that of

00:00:47.320 having to log that and this is a discussion that we haven't really had as a country in canada privacy

00:00:54.340 rights in general i'd say are not things that seem top of mind on the political agenda so i want to

00:01:00.360 talk about this and there's no one better than dr ann kavukian who was for three terms the privacy

00:01:06.220 commissioner in ontario and also is the executive director of the global privacy and security by

00:01:11.440 design center and as her twitter bio says a lover of privacy and freedom who joins me now

00:01:16.320 and wonderful to talk to you thanks very much for joining me today oh it's my pleasure andrew thank

00:01:21.500 you you wrote a tremendous piece on your substack back in october that i wanted to start off on here

00:01:28.580 because you challenged a presumption i've always had about a lot of the things that i've argued for and

00:01:34.660 i've always viewed freedom as being really that fundamental base unit that you need to live the

00:01:40.380 good life as they say in political theory but you said that there's something more fundamental to that

00:01:45.760 you argued that privacy is needed to enjoy freedom and and i want to get to the vaccine passports and

00:01:51.720 the vaccine mandates but but i first wanted to set you up to explain what you mean by that

00:01:56.160 i've always said that privacy forms the foundation of our freedom you cannot have free and open societies

00:02:02.260 without a solid foundation of privacy where you the individual get to decide what information you

00:02:09.260 choose to disclose and to whom and how it's used you have to have control over this what that to me is

00:02:15.140 what freedom is all about so privacy and freedom go hand in hand we've often viewed i think for a lot

00:02:22.760 of people the big threats against privacy is coming from corporations certainly in the last decade or so

00:02:28.500 big tech censorship big tech companies like facebook and google amassing these huge troves of data about

00:02:34.840 you we're in a new era now though vaccine passports are one of many examples where something that used

00:02:41.060 to be in a distant era would have or even a not so distant era would have been your private information

00:02:45.960 your private choices is now part of your identity in a way that you must use that to access public sphere

00:02:53.300 but it's not private corporations that are imposing that it's government oh i think government

00:02:58.740 government is our greatest concern now quite frankly because their ability to usurp our information

00:03:05.580 to tell us what to do and expect us just to accept that they in my view are seeking much greater control

00:03:14.320 and they're getting control when you look at the the covid pandemic they are scaring people to death

00:03:19.760 and when people live in a world of fear then they just it just eradicates their lives they go along

00:03:27.460 with whatever not because they agree with it but because they feel they have no choice and they're

00:03:32.280 scared for their lives governments are who we have to look after right now in terms of usurping our

00:03:37.840 freedoms when it comes to privacy i know the five words you've heard that must just make your skin

00:03:43.620 crawl or if you have nothing to hide dot dot dot and and at the same time though we're seeing this in

00:03:49.520 the vaccine passport discussion people who say well if you're fully vaccinated what's the big deal why do

00:03:54.660 you care so much and i'm having trouble convincing some of those people why they should care about

00:03:59.980 these measures if they're on board with the particular output they're they're fully vaccinated

00:04:04.660 why should those people still care about these incursions you're talking about

00:04:08.240 because it's your full life your freedom i mean just because you're vaccinated first of all there

00:04:14.260 are so many myths associated with being vaccinated and the strength of the vaccines

00:04:18.200 it is appalling and so don't think for a minute that just because you've been vaccinated everything

00:04:24.060 is fine most of the people appearing in the hospitals now with covet are fully vaccinated fully

00:04:28.980 boosted everything so and that let me go back to that line you started with well if you have nothing

00:04:33.980 to hide you have nothing to fear right wrong that could have been the motto of the stasi police and

00:04:39.540 the third right because it presumes that the government has a right of access to all your information

00:04:45.060 and you should open up your life to them and give them whatever they want and that's not what freedom

00:04:50.440 is about that's not what privacy is about it is usurping the role of individuals and personal

00:04:56.720 control privacy is all about personal control over the use and disclosure of your personal information

00:05:01.940 that's what freedom is about government is totally trying to change the narrative to say that well what's

00:05:07.900 the problem why shouldn't you get the vaccine we're telling you you should be doing this well you got

00:05:12.600 nothing to hide right wrong it has nothing to do with that well this is why i've been so unsettled

00:05:18.900 by people who have been especially in the uk right now where they've basically revoked all of their

00:05:23.760 covid restrictions people heaping praise on these governments and i i'm unsettled by this because it

00:05:29.100 reinforces that very idea that there they were government's freedoms to give and government's freedoms

00:05:34.580 to take away which we know is not the case and and i think so many people especially in canada are so

00:05:39.940 beaten down by now about lockdowns and restrictions that they'll be grateful when these things are

00:05:45.820 lifted at least in some form i mean i i had a conversation a little while ago with someone about

00:05:50.720 masks on planes and i i said you know it's something that i fear will be here forever and they say well

00:05:55.360 you know if that's the only restriction left then i i can live with it so people have already

00:05:59.800 accepted this idea that they have to settle for less than we're supposed to have in a free society

00:06:05.540 but here's what we're not seeing in mainstream media there is so much opposition to this

00:06:10.280 over the weekend there were protests in countries all over the world opposing vaccine mandates

00:06:17.760 passports etc um a hundred thousand in brussels there was a huge one in london in uh dublin uh here in

00:06:26.740 toronto on saturday there was huge protests and got no coverage whatsoever and all across the country

00:06:33.340 so people are objecting to this many many people you're not hearing about it on mainstream media

00:06:39.180 that's the problem so do not think that this is being widely accepted and it's fine and we're just

00:06:45.160 going to go along with this no we're not we value our freedom we value our privacy we're going to stand

00:06:50.580 up for our personal rights and when you're talking about vaccine mandates and passports we're talking

00:06:55.860 about the most sensitive personal information that exists your personal health information your medical

00:07:01.140 data this doesn't belong to anybody in the public it belongs to you and your physician whoever you

00:07:06.060 choose to disclose it to you shouldn't have to be expected to present a passport on this it is absurd

00:07:12.880 one of the things i wanted to ask you about anne is this idea of of systems that are being built

00:07:19.840 by governments now that i think will outlive the pandemic your background obviously you were the

00:07:24.660 creator of privacy by design you know very well the idea of specifically building privacy and protection

00:07:30.540 of data into systems and it strikes me that if that's possible then government can do the opposite

00:07:35.700 which is build into systems the premise that there is no privacy build into systems the idea that our

00:07:41.720 data do not belong to us but belong to the government and my fear in this has always been that the vaccine

00:07:47.740 passports we have now sure you're vaccinated against covid maybe you're boosted that's fine but this thing

00:07:53.660 could very easily be applied to flu shots it could be very easily be applied to other things and i don't

00:07:59.720 think a lot of people in certainly in mainstream media and i would say in government as well are talking

00:08:04.920 about the longer term implications of these systems that are being designed and this infrastructure that

00:08:10.280 right now is being created no that's right andrew the potential expansion of this to other areas

00:08:15.880 is is uh dramatic and very frightening to me because it it will usurp our freedoms in multiple areas

00:08:24.600 where the government has no and let's be frank the government being in control of our information

00:08:30.620 they have a terrible record in terms of securing any of the data not disclosing it to third parties

00:08:37.320 or unauthorized it's appalling the thought of it just makes me quiver so no the government does not

00:08:43.800 have a right of greater access and what we need to do and our federal privacy commissioner

00:08:48.600 has been trying to get the government to upgrade our privacy laws which were introduced in the early

00:08:54.580 2000s have they done anything no this is what is appalling to rely on the government to have to take

00:09:01.860 care of our privacy and our freedom is not going to happen we have to stand up we have to speak out

00:09:06.920 and so many people are doing this you're just not hearing it on mainstream media that's what concerns me

00:09:12.080 so much i want people to know there's so much opposition to this all around the world globally

00:09:17.580 don't give up now when you say early 2000s just to give a brief summary of the things that have

00:09:23.720 come about since then digital apps smartphones social media platforms qr codes all of these are

00:09:30.720 kind of ubiquitous now and you're saying are not covered by the privacy laws we had or at least we're

00:09:36.200 not we're not informing the development of those laws they weren't top of mind they weren't on the

00:09:40.940 our minds at all because they didn't exist back then we desperately need to strengthen our laws

00:09:45.740 for the first time we no longer have essential equivalents with the new law that came into effect

00:09:51.140 in europe in 2018 the general data protection regulation the gdpr our long is no longer sufficient

00:09:57.480 so we can no longer exchange and trade and engage in business with the eu without fear of reprisal

00:10:03.340 and they've said you've got to upgrade your law and you know federal privacy commission

00:10:07.940 has been asking the government to do this since 2016 2017 they've done nothing it is appalling

00:10:14.820 that we have not moved this forward as we need to you mentioned europe one thing i wanted to ask about

00:10:21.180 is their move and i don't know how much you've delved into it but their move into this digital id

00:10:26.800 that they're trying to put forward and really make this the cornerstone of your identity across european

00:10:32.940 nations and there was a dutch lawyer i read a column from last week that was concerned that

00:10:37.740 the vaccine passport will very easily be swept up into this digital id and all of a sudden we're

00:10:43.000 talking about something that is connected to your banking information your residency your employment

00:10:47.940 your mobility how real is something like that in a canadian context i'm hoping it's not that real

00:10:54.880 simply because it takes us forever to do anything yeah bureaucracy may be the saving grace on this

00:11:00.100 but i i fear the digitization of identity digital id like they're doing in europe then europe will go to

00:11:07.740 great lengths to protect it uh with the ggpr make sure it's not centralized see that's part of the key

00:11:13.840 part you don't want this data centralized if your digital id is centralized then it can be accessed by

00:11:19.160 multiple third parties often unknown unauthorized you may not be aware of it so you have to take

00:11:24.820 enormous precautions if we go down that route of digital id and i don't think we're ready for that

00:11:29.760 let's go back to an ontario context here you served as the privacy commissioner three terms i think

00:11:35.460 you're the still the reigning record holder for time you've served in that position did you find that

00:11:41.360 the resistance you were getting was from politicians that were fundamentally opposed to

00:11:46.240 these things or was it just from people that didn't think it was a priority or didn't think it was

00:11:50.680 all that important you know it was with the government uh the political parties whenever

00:11:55.080 there was a political party wasn't the government yet they were all for privacy totally for protecting

00:12:00.040 our data etc then when they became the government all that changed it shifted they wanted to control

00:12:06.000 data they want to control over our data and this is what concerns me enormously is that governments

00:12:12.600 have this belief that they somehow have to be in control of people's information

00:12:16.700 and decide how it's going to be structured and everything and so i am very concerned uh especially

00:12:23.120 with our existing governments i truly am that this is the direction they're going in they feel like

00:12:28.060 they've got this pass now with the vaccine mandate and passports and they've got all this control and

00:12:33.620 and people are supporting them because they're terrified this is what fears this is the fear that i have

00:12:39.380 and we have to resist this very strongly when you talk about a lot of these things it's easy or i guess

00:12:45.240 would have been a year ago to be branded as a conspiracy theorist although i think by the more

00:12:48.980 of these so-called conspiracies keep coming true in the last year the the less likely people are to

00:12:53.860 throw that term around but you raised an important point there which is that the pandemic does seem to

00:12:58.580 have provided a convenient opportunity to people that were already committed to certain dimensions of

00:13:04.260 pandemic policy specifically just the government control aspect and i fear that that will be magnified in

00:13:11.580 the future you know the pandemic we're going to get over the pandemic sooner or later they're going to

00:13:15.740 find something else that is my fear is that they're now saying well omicron is going to be around for

00:13:21.620 a long time and it'll be with us we need to preserve these precautions we have the flu for years for

00:13:26.800 god's sakes you know you get the flu you get over it or you get it treated or whatever there are things

00:13:32.160 in existence we can't raise people's fears that the people have to live in fear all the time that is no way to

00:13:37.980 live and i fear that governments will go that route to strengthen their control you mentioned earlier

00:13:45.220 and that the public is very much growing in its resistance to this and and that story is not being

00:13:50.900 told in the mainstream media and i would certainly agree with that but i also at the same time remain

00:13:56.280 a bit pessimistic because i have found there are a lot of people that will use that line we were talking

00:14:01.460 about earlier of if you have nothing to hide a lot of people that generally speaking have not just

00:14:06.020 welcomed but in in some cases invited some of these restrictions do you find yourself optimistic

00:14:12.440 or pessimistic generally about where society is and where the culture is on these issues you know i i've

00:14:19.280 always been the eternal optimist because you have to be otherwise life is too depressing i'm getting

00:14:24.360 very concerned i must admit with the direction this is taking and the growth and the idea as well you

00:14:30.440 got nothing to hide i remember one of the first privacy commissioners of new zealand we were at a

00:14:35.400 conference together and he said if he will say that to you tell him you know don't you go to bed with

00:14:41.880 your husband don't you have something to do don't you have certain things you'd like to keep private

00:14:45.220 for god's sakes you have no life for yourself there are things in every life that people choose to keep

00:14:51.440 private it's no one else's business and when it comes to medical data that should be right at the top

00:14:56.880 i fear we're going to have ongoing problems here but we have to stay strong and vigilant

00:15:02.200 please i urge you never give up well just on the note of medical data i know when the government

00:15:09.000 which basically has been fairly universal across canada among provinces move towards qr code so you

00:15:15.360 can no longer even hand over just a piece of paper you need to have a qr code the government would say

00:15:20.560 well you know we're making sure that none of your other data will be stored on this and i always

00:15:25.960 thought that was missing the point that the vaccination certificate is itself a piece of

00:15:31.080 data it is itself a piece of information about your medical choices and there does seem to be

00:15:36.620 something missing there that it's not about how you implement the program as much as the existence

00:15:41.740 of this program and i would say the segregation itself yeah qr codes please i mean why do you have to

00:15:48.600 present a qr code it is absurd they are so fearful they want to retain this data and have it linked

00:15:55.360 with individuals and when you go to places and they ask you for your qr code they also ask you for

00:16:01.260 id driver's license health data whatever with a picture on it so that can be linked and the potential

00:16:07.500 for tracking your whereabouts your activities surveillance mounts dramatically so where do you think

00:16:15.580 if i can try to tap into that optimism you mentioned where do you think that the biggest

00:16:20.920 point is here that we can start breaking down on this because governments have generally been

00:16:25.500 fairly unrepentant and while there have been some slight disagreements in how provinces have handled

00:16:30.720 this liberal conservative ndp they've all basically gone the same direction every province and territory

00:16:36.180 has a vaccine passport not everyone has gone the way quebec has yet by talking about

00:16:41.140 mandating or fining but generally speaking we're seeing a pretty unified approach on a lot of these

00:16:47.040 measures where where do you think the best way to break that apart is i think slowly the lifting of

00:16:54.480 vaccine passports will begin and it will take some time i want to be clear i think what people have

00:17:00.980 to insist upon is that their freedoms are invaluable that health data associated with your medical

00:17:09.660 conditions with the choices you make this should be yours to freely make and not have to display

00:17:16.140 to the world what choices you've made this is very personal information and so when i approach people

00:17:22.300 along those lines that this is health data that should not necessarily have to be shared if you want

00:17:28.780 to do look i always tell people i'm not anti-vax i'm pro-choice i want to preserve our choices preserve

00:17:34.540 our privacy and our freedom when you take that route people generally come into agreement so that's

00:17:40.220 what i'm urging people to do yeah and i would also add to that as well when these measures are lifted

00:17:46.300 in a lot of cases governments will conveniently say that they can lift them because they worked

00:17:51.740 and this is what we've seen at the federal level with hotel quarantine for example the federal government

00:17:56.300 was told by its own expert panel it wasn't working and then lifts it and says it's no longer necessary

00:18:01.340 without actually dealing with the underlying issues with and i i would say that voters citizens have

00:18:06.780 to put some pressure on governments when that happens when they lift them don't let them bring

00:18:11.420 them back the second we get another scare of oh you know a case count here or this variant or

00:18:16.300 whatever the case may be i couldn't agree more but i also want to remind everyone you're not seeing

00:18:22.380 it on mainstream media but there's thousands and tens of thousands of people are opposing this there are

00:18:27.660 massive protests on the weekend um not just abroad in europe etc in canada in toronto and so people are

00:18:35.180 beginning to object to having to reveal their personal sensitive medical data and share it widely

00:18:40.860 and just accept what the government is telling us we have to preserve that resistance i think that's an

00:18:47.180 incredibly important note to end on and i have to give another plug because that piece you wrote in

00:18:51.580 october is still just as relevant if not more so today rise up freedom must prevail and i think

00:18:57.580 it's very it's been very informative just even for me personally and the importance to look at privacy

00:19:02.140 and freedom is very interlinked and kabukian is the executive director of the global privacy and

00:19:07.980 security by design center thank you so much and it's a true pleasure to have you on thank you so much

00:19:13.820 andrew it's always a pleasure thanks for listening to the andrew lawton show support the program by

00:19:18.620 donating to true north at www.tnc.news

Juno News - January 26, 2022

Former privacy commissioner Ann Cavoukian on vaccine passports and erosion of privacy

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