Juno News - Free speech and hate

00:00:00.960 You're tuned in to The Andrew Long Show.

00:00:08.700 Raheel, thank you so much for coming on.

00:00:11.100 Thank you, Andrew. It's my pleasure.

00:00:13.320 Now, this was obviously a horrific story.

00:00:15.800 We've seen people around the country, around the world,

00:00:19.100 that have rallied in support of this family.

00:00:22.180 As a Muslim woman, a Pakistani-Canadian, how did you feel when you heard about this?

00:00:27.060 It's devastating.

00:00:29.100 So very tragic.

00:00:31.140 But, Andrew, not just as a Muslim, but as a human being,

00:00:34.980 the fact that four members of a family were killed in this attack

00:00:39.240 and the nine-year-old boy was seriously injured,

00:00:43.740 it just breaks my heart.

00:00:45.540 My grandson is about the same age.

00:00:47.540 And I think about this young boy's future.

00:00:50.120 And I wonder, will he grow up just distrusting people?

00:00:54.280 Will he grow up thinking that there's evil and violence around him?

00:00:58.920 The good news is that he is out of danger.

00:01:02.320 And I believe, I read that his aunt and uncle are going to adopt him,

00:01:07.440 which, of course, is a good thing.

00:01:09.580 But, you know, it's heart-rending.

00:01:11.060 It's heartbreaking.

00:01:12.180 As a mother, as a grandmother, I can't stop thinking about the family

00:01:16.040 and what the extended family must be going through.

00:01:19.520 Indeed.

00:01:20.420 And, you know, everyone who knows this family said they were tremendous people,

00:01:24.260 very integrated in their Muslim community

00:01:26.540 and also in the London community where I live.

00:01:29.800 And when so many people rallied behind

00:01:32.700 and have donated hundreds of thousands of dollars

00:01:35.220 to support the boy's future,

00:01:36.740 not that any amount of money can undo it,

00:01:39.600 but there's been a level of support for this family.

00:01:43.060 And when the community had a vigil this week,

00:01:46.740 I was hoping that there would be just a moment to respect and honour this loss.

00:01:52.860 And I was very unsettled at what seemed to be a very quick politicisation

00:01:57.660 of what you rightfully characterise as being a tragedy

00:02:01.720 and as being an act of evil.

00:02:03.600 Yes.

00:02:04.040 So this is where it is so troubling and so disturbing

00:02:07.620 because the aftermath of the tragedy

00:02:09.440 when things are supposed to be settling down

00:02:11.380 is even, you know, tragic and sort of so dismal in so many ways

00:02:16.460 because, you know, politicians are already making it

00:02:19.700 to the fullest and community leaders.

00:02:22.560 They hold all the aces now.

00:02:24.500 And nothing can be said because if anyone says anything,

00:02:27.660 they're going to be slapped with, you know, a racism label.

00:02:31.080 And, you know, it brings me back to M-103.

00:02:36.340 You know, when Motion 103 was first introduced,

00:02:40.080 I had spoken in Parliament against it saying,

00:02:42.960 and I'd written an op-ed saying that it will divide Canadians.

00:02:46.760 And this is exactly what I see happening,

00:02:50.040 that, you know, it's only going to create a rift.

00:02:53.900 And there are people, community leaders,

00:02:56.500 who are just promoting their own agendas.

00:02:59.520 You know, I read that at the vigil,

00:03:03.820 one of the leaders, Muslim leaders of the community,

00:03:06.940 connected what happened in Israel and Gaza

00:03:09.220 to what has happened in London, Ontario.

00:03:11.280 I mean, that is so, so unacceptable.

00:03:14.860 That is so horrific.

00:03:16.680 And then I heard on Hakikat TV from Pakistan

00:03:20.980 where there was a whole news item about this tragedy.

00:03:25.860 And, you know, I am originally from Pakistan,

00:03:27.660 so I understand the language.

00:03:29.500 And there was a whole news item about the London tragedy

00:03:32.720 in which they said that this is a Jewish conspiracy

00:03:35.440 and it's going to happen all around the world.

00:03:39.180 That was bad enough.

00:03:41.020 But there are people here, community leaders,

00:03:43.540 who are retweeting that.

00:03:45.880 So this is something that has gone out into the public.

00:03:49.380 I mean, what does this make Canadians feel?

00:03:53.560 Yes, and it turns people into political cudgels

00:03:58.960 and political weapons.

00:04:00.440 And to your point about M-103,

00:04:02.180 I've had directed at me because I spoke out against M-103,

00:04:05.180 as did you, as did countless of our colleagues.

00:04:07.320 And I've had people put the blame

00:04:10.100 at those who spoke out against M-103.

00:04:13.720 Even conservative politicians who spoke up this week

00:04:17.420 in a very candid and a very, I'd say, moving way

00:04:20.880 were said, well, your thoughts don't matter

00:04:22.980 because you voted against M-103.

00:04:24.880 And I'm sorry to be so crass.

00:04:26.540 M-103 passed and this still happened.

00:04:29.220 So the idea that that motion prevents hatred,

00:04:33.720 as police have said was at the root of this,

00:04:36.480 is simply not true.

00:04:37.880 But it is used for political division.

00:04:39.700 You're right.

00:04:40.740 Yes.

00:04:41.220 I mean, this tragedy that happened was an immense tragedy.

00:04:44.780 But the fact that it is being politicized

00:04:46.660 and the fact that there are people who are using it

00:04:49.320 to promote their own agendas

00:04:50.740 and everyone is finding some way to promote their agenda

00:04:53.580 is absolutely unacceptable.

00:04:56.460 In this country, this is a free country.

00:04:58.320 People should be allowed to express their opinions

00:05:02.480 and criticize.

00:05:04.300 I've always said this.

00:05:05.900 So M-103 has not stopped any hate.

00:05:08.780 Hate is a learned behavior.

00:05:10.680 I think what has happened with this tragedy

00:05:13.120 is that it's given, first of all,

00:05:15.100 it's shocked Canadians that it's happened in our country.

00:05:18.480 And secondly, I think it is time to reflect

00:05:20.760 and see where we've come.

00:05:23.220 And what do we need to do about the hate?

00:05:25.760 Because obviously it's been taught.

00:05:28.320 So we need to go to the root cause of whether hate is being taught.

00:05:31.680 There need to be educational programs.

00:05:33.480 I mean, the prime minister very confidently says

00:05:36.580 that, you know, there is systemic racism in Canada.

00:05:39.600 And, of course, the community leaders grab this

00:05:41.980 as an opportunity to milk the issue.

00:05:45.540 But, you know, there are going to be now laws clamping down on free speech and censorship

00:05:50.920 when that is not the solution, but part of the problem.

00:05:55.320 When you stifle free speech in a free country, it creates problems.

00:06:00.780 You know, free speech is important.

00:06:02.020 Yes, of course, we have to speak out against xenophobia and bigotry.

00:06:07.280 And, you know, there have been attacks on Asians in BC

00:06:10.000 and the LGBT community is constantly under attack.

00:06:13.900 And, of course, you know, these have to be addressed.

00:06:16.640 This is not to say that there is no racism.

00:06:18.880 Of course there is, but we have to directly address that.

00:06:21.320 But to stifle free speech and to have censorship and to have laws

00:06:25.480 that don't allow people to critique something that is terribly wrong is even worse

00:06:31.200 because that causes problems.

00:06:33.760 It does.

00:06:34.660 And at this vigil, one individual spoke up and said,

00:06:38.460 one of the official speakers, and said we need to,

00:06:40.940 his words were criminalize Islamophobia.

00:06:44.040 Another, who's actually a lawyer, said you can't hide behind the Constitution

00:06:48.340 and freedom of expression doesn't matter if a family doesn't have the right

00:06:52.140 to walk down the street.

00:06:53.200 But I'm very uncomfortable with that dichotomy,

00:06:55.900 that safety and community are exclusive of freedom of expression and vice versa.

00:07:02.960 But when that's the narrative that's being put forward,

00:07:05.760 how do you break through?

00:07:06.860 And how do you say, yes, I want to condemn bigotry and condemn hatred,

00:07:11.300 but no, free speech abridgments and infringements are not the way to do that?

00:07:16.260 That's exactly what we have to say.

00:07:17.960 Andrew, you know that I come from Pakistan.

00:07:20.140 I've seen myself what happens when free speech is stifled,

00:07:24.500 when freedom of expression is stifled.

00:07:27.260 And once it is done, you can never go back to being the same again.

00:07:31.240 And I don't want to see this happening in Canada.

00:07:33.920 You know, I am quite open to the idea that someone wants to criticize me,

00:07:38.200 wants to criticize my faith. 0.91

00:07:39.680 That is okay.

00:07:40.700 Everyone has a right to do that.

00:07:42.440 But this stifling of free speech is going to create more problems.

00:07:45.960 I am fearful of what the aftermath of this tragedy is going to be in terms of misuse of the situation,

00:07:54.920 in terms of people politicizing it instead of just having compassion.

00:07:59.960 All that family needs right now is compassion.

00:08:04.100 They don't need it to be politicized.

00:08:06.320 But of course, it is being, we have elections coming up.

00:08:08.920 Let's not forget.

00:08:10.440 So every politician has a vested interest in, you know, promoting their agenda to get votes.

00:08:17.260 But that's not the way I feel this should happen.

00:08:20.220 There has to be a human element.

00:08:21.680 There has to be a sensible, reasonable, logical element that says exactly as you said,

00:08:27.120 that, you know, we must speak out against any kind of racism, xenophobia, bigotry.

00:08:32.480 But we should have the free speech available to us.

00:08:35.300 I mean, this is what immigrants like me came to Canada for.

00:08:38.300 And it's very sad to see it go down the deep, dark hole.

00:08:42.660 Well, that's a tremendously important point.

00:08:45.080 And I do not at all want to put thoughts and words and attribute them to the AFSAL family,

00:08:50.980 who I never met.

00:08:52.020 But a lot of people who have come to this country have come here because they value

00:08:56.440 what it is that Canada is.

00:08:58.480 And that is not just a country that has legal protections for free speech,

00:09:02.380 but also a country that's by and large tolerant.

00:09:05.160 And I get very uncomfortable when events that are incredibly rare are used to,

00:09:11.400 in a way that extrapolates them to speak for Canada.

00:09:14.500 And that's also been what's happened even at a local level in my community.

00:09:18.140 People have said that, oh, well, no surprise this happened in London.

00:09:21.040 Well, the fact that this event is so significant is proof that it's rare

00:09:25.540 and proof that it doesn't speak for this country.

00:09:27.900 Of course, and it doesn't speak for all Canadians.

00:09:29.960 I find it very troubling when, you know, all Canadians are tarred with the same brush

00:09:35.240 of racism, that there is systemic racism.

00:09:37.480 No, there's not.

00:09:38.600 I've lived here, you know, for 30 years.

00:09:41.000 My children have grown up here.

00:09:42.780 And one anchor even asked me, you know, are you afraid to walk the street?

00:09:46.020 And I said, you must be joking.

00:09:48.240 You know, this is so naive and illogical to think that all Canadians are racist.

00:09:54.000 There are bad, evil elements in every society.

00:09:56.160 You know, I know as a Muslim that I don't like everyone to tar the terrorist brush

00:10:00.680 to all Muslims.

00:10:01.700 I mean, we are very conscious of that.

00:10:03.380 So we don't do that.

00:10:04.340 We shouldn't be doing this.

00:10:05.880 This is not all Canadians. 0.85

00:10:07.560 In fact, if anything, Canadians have shown how compassionate they are,

00:10:11.720 regardless of ethnicity, religion, caste, creed, colour.

00:10:15.860 They have come together.

00:10:17.120 They have shown their solidarity.

00:10:18.900 They have shown their compassion.

00:10:20.600 I have received personally so many emails from people who I hadn't seen for 20 years.

00:10:26.420 Just saying, we are sorry that this happened in your community.

00:10:29.400 And, you know, I come back to saying that, yes, this has happened and it's terrible.

00:10:33.380 It's a human tragedy.

00:10:35.280 You know, this is not because it is what happened to just people in my faith.

00:10:40.000 I would do the same for anyone in Canada if this happened.

00:10:44.040 And so we must remember to come together as one community,

00:10:47.260 as one people without divisiveness.

00:10:50.120 And I wish our politicians would stop dividing us, us and them.

00:10:54.580 That's not what it's about.

00:10:56.300 It's all of us together in this.

00:10:58.100 And we have to fight the hate.

00:10:59.400 Very well said.

00:11:02.320 And I think incredible words to end on.

00:11:04.420 Raheel Raza, President of the Council for Muslims Facing Tomorrow.

00:11:07.980 Raheel, thank you so much for your insight and your kindness on this.

00:11:11.180 I know you've always been a tremendous advocate for your community and for the country.

00:11:15.080 And I think we're very grateful to have your voice on this and in general.

00:11:18.540 So thank you.

00:11:19.520 Thank you, Andrew.

00:11:20.300 Have a great day.

00:11:21.000 Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:11:23.480 Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.

Juno News - June 11, 2021

Free speech and hate

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