Juno News - June 11, 2021


Free speech and hate

Mentioned
Andrew Lawton Show Raheel Raza Hakikat
The politicization of terrorism Ryerson Conservative club’s lonely defence of Egerton Ryerson

Episode Stats


Length

11 minutes

Words per minute

171.65

Word count

1,970

Sentence count

151

Harmful content

Hate speech

2

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Four members of a family were killed and a 9-year-old boy seriously injured in an attack that took place in London, Ontario, Canada on June 14th, 2019. In this episode, I speak with Rheel Khalid, the grandmother of the victim of the attack, about her grief at the loss of four members of her family, and about the politicization of the tragedy.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.960 You're tuned in to The Andrew Long Show.
00:00:08.700 Raheel, thank you so much for coming on.
00:00:11.100 Thank you, Andrew. It's my pleasure.
00:00:13.320 Now, this was obviously a horrific story.
00:00:15.800 We've seen people around the country, around the world,
00:00:19.100 that have rallied in support of this family.
00:00:22.180 As a Muslim woman, a Pakistani-Canadian, how did you feel when you heard about this?
00:00:27.060 It's devastating.
00:00:29.100 So very tragic.
00:00:31.140 But, Andrew, not just as a Muslim, but as a human being,
00:00:34.980 the fact that four members of a family were killed in this attack
00:00:39.240 and the nine-year-old boy was seriously injured,
00:00:43.740 it just breaks my heart.
00:00:45.540 My grandson is about the same age.
00:00:47.540 And I think about this young boy's future.
00:00:50.120 And I wonder, will he grow up just distrusting people?
00:00:54.280 Will he grow up thinking that there's evil and violence around him?
00:00:58.920 The good news is that he is out of danger.
00:01:02.320 And I believe, I read that his aunt and uncle are going to adopt him,
00:01:07.440 which, of course, is a good thing.
00:01:09.580 But, you know, it's heart-rending.
00:01:11.060 It's heartbreaking.
00:01:12.180 As a mother, as a grandmother, I can't stop thinking about the family
00:01:16.040 and what the extended family must be going through.
00:01:19.520 Indeed.
00:01:20.420 And, you know, everyone who knows this family said they were tremendous people,
00:01:24.260 very integrated in their Muslim community
00:01:26.540 and also in the London community where I live.
00:01:29.800 And when so many people rallied behind
00:01:32.700 and have donated hundreds of thousands of dollars
00:01:35.220 to support the boy's future,
00:01:36.740 not that any amount of money can undo it,
00:01:39.600 but there's been a level of support for this family.
00:01:43.060 And when the community had a vigil this week,
00:01:46.740 I was hoping that there would be just a moment to respect and honour this loss.
00:01:52.860 And I was very unsettled at what seemed to be a very quick politicisation
00:01:57.660 of what you rightfully characterise as being a tragedy
00:02:01.720 and as being an act of evil.
00:02:03.600 Yes.
00:02:04.040 So this is where it is so troubling and so disturbing
00:02:07.620 because the aftermath of the tragedy
00:02:09.440 when things are supposed to be settling down
00:02:11.380 is even, you know, tragic and sort of so dismal in so many ways
00:02:16.460 because, you know, politicians are already making it
00:02:19.700 to the fullest and community leaders.
00:02:22.560 They hold all the aces now.
00:02:24.500 And nothing can be said because if anyone says anything,
00:02:27.660 they're going to be slapped with, you know, a racism label.
00:02:31.080 And, you know, it brings me back to M-103.
00:02:36.340 You know, when Motion 103 was first introduced,
00:02:40.080 I had spoken in Parliament against it saying,
00:02:42.960 and I'd written an op-ed saying that it will divide Canadians.
00:02:46.760 And this is exactly what I see happening,
00:02:50.040 that, you know, it's only going to create a rift.
00:02:53.900 And there are people, community leaders,
00:02:56.500 who are just promoting their own agendas.
00:02:59.520 You know, I read that at the vigil,
00:03:03.820 one of the leaders, Muslim leaders of the community,
00:03:06.940 connected what happened in Israel and Gaza
00:03:09.220 to what has happened in London, Ontario.
00:03:11.280 I mean, that is so, so unacceptable.
00:03:14.860 That is so horrific.
00:03:16.680 And then I heard on Hakikat TV from Pakistan
00:03:20.980 where there was a whole news item about this tragedy.
00:03:25.860 And, you know, I am originally from Pakistan,
00:03:27.660 so I understand the language.
00:03:29.500 And there was a whole news item about the London tragedy
00:03:32.720 in which they said that this is a Jewish conspiracy
00:03:35.440 and it's going to happen all around the world.
00:03:39.180 That was bad enough.
00:03:41.020 But there are people here, community leaders,
00:03:43.540 who are retweeting that.
00:03:45.880 So this is something that has gone out into the public.
00:03:49.380 I mean, what does this make Canadians feel?
00:03:53.560 Yes, and it turns people into political cudgels
00:03:58.960 and political weapons.
00:04:00.440 And to your point about M-103,
00:04:02.180 I've had directed at me because I spoke out against M-103,
00:04:05.180 as did you, as did countless of our colleagues.
00:04:07.320 And I've had people put the blame
00:04:10.100 at those who spoke out against M-103.
00:04:13.720 Even conservative politicians who spoke up this week
00:04:17.420 in a very candid and a very, I'd say, moving way
00:04:20.880 were said, well, your thoughts don't matter
00:04:22.980 because you voted against M-103.
00:04:24.880 And I'm sorry to be so crass.
00:04:26.540 M-103 passed and this still happened.
00:04:29.220 So the idea that that motion prevents hatred,
00:04:33.720 as police have said was at the root of this,
00:04:36.480 is simply not true.
00:04:37.880 But it is used for political division.
00:04:39.700 You're right.
00:04:40.740 Yes.
00:04:41.220 I mean, this tragedy that happened was an immense tragedy.
00:04:44.780 But the fact that it is being politicized
00:04:46.660 and the fact that there are people who are using it
00:04:49.320 to promote their own agendas
00:04:50.740 and everyone is finding some way to promote their agenda
00:04:53.580 is absolutely unacceptable.
00:04:56.460 In this country, this is a free country.
00:04:58.320 People should be allowed to express their opinions
00:05:02.480 and criticize.
00:05:04.300 I've always said this.
00:05:05.900 So M-103 has not stopped any hate.
00:05:08.780 Hate is a learned behavior.
00:05:10.680 I think what has happened with this tragedy
00:05:13.120 is that it's given, first of all,
00:05:15.100 it's shocked Canadians that it's happened in our country.
00:05:18.480 And secondly, I think it is time to reflect
00:05:20.760 and see where we've come.
00:05:23.220 And what do we need to do about the hate?
00:05:25.760 Because obviously it's been taught.
00:05:28.320 So we need to go to the root cause of whether hate is being taught.
00:05:31.680 There need to be educational programs.
00:05:33.480 I mean, the prime minister very confidently says
00:05:36.580 that, you know, there is systemic racism in Canada.
00:05:39.600 And, of course, the community leaders grab this
00:05:41.980 as an opportunity to milk the issue.
00:05:45.540 But, you know, there are going to be now laws clamping down on free speech and censorship
00:05:50.920 when that is not the solution, but part of the problem.
00:05:55.320 When you stifle free speech in a free country, it creates problems.
00:06:00.780 You know, free speech is important.
00:06:02.020 Yes, of course, we have to speak out against xenophobia and bigotry.
00:06:07.280 And, you know, there have been attacks on Asians in BC
00:06:10.000 and the LGBT community is constantly under attack.
00:06:13.900 And, of course, you know, these have to be addressed.
00:06:16.640 This is not to say that there is no racism.
00:06:18.880 Of course there is, but we have to directly address that.
00:06:21.320 But to stifle free speech and to have censorship and to have laws
00:06:25.480 that don't allow people to critique something that is terribly wrong is even worse
00:06:31.200 because that causes problems.
00:06:33.760 It does.
00:06:34.660 And at this vigil, one individual spoke up and said,
00:06:38.460 one of the official speakers, and said we need to,
00:06:40.940 his words were criminalize Islamophobia.
00:06:44.040 Another, who's actually a lawyer, said you can't hide behind the Constitution
00:06:48.340 and freedom of expression doesn't matter if a family doesn't have the right
00:06:52.140 to walk down the street.
00:06:53.200 But I'm very uncomfortable with that dichotomy,
00:06:55.900 that safety and community are exclusive of freedom of expression and vice versa.
00:07:02.960 But when that's the narrative that's being put forward,
00:07:05.760 how do you break through?
00:07:06.860 And how do you say, yes, I want to condemn bigotry and condemn hatred,
00:07:11.300 but no, free speech abridgments and infringements are not the way to do that?
00:07:16.260 That's exactly what we have to say.
00:07:17.960 Andrew, you know that I come from Pakistan.
00:07:20.140 I've seen myself what happens when free speech is stifled,
00:07:24.500 when freedom of expression is stifled.
00:07:27.260 And once it is done, you can never go back to being the same again.
00:07:31.240 And I don't want to see this happening in Canada.
00:07:33.920 You know, I am quite open to the idea that someone wants to criticize me,
00:07:38.200 wants to criticize my faith. 0.91
00:07:39.680 That is okay.
00:07:40.700 Everyone has a right to do that.
00:07:42.440 But this stifling of free speech is going to create more problems.
00:07:45.960 I am fearful of what the aftermath of this tragedy is going to be in terms of misuse of the situation,
00:07:54.920 in terms of people politicizing it instead of just having compassion.
00:07:59.960 All that family needs right now is compassion.
00:08:04.100 They don't need it to be politicized.
00:08:06.320 But of course, it is being, we have elections coming up.
00:08:08.920 Let's not forget.
00:08:10.440 So every politician has a vested interest in, you know, promoting their agenda to get votes.
00:08:17.260 But that's not the way I feel this should happen.
00:08:20.220 There has to be a human element.
00:08:21.680 There has to be a sensible, reasonable, logical element that says exactly as you said,
00:08:27.120 that, you know, we must speak out against any kind of racism, xenophobia, bigotry.
00:08:32.480 But we should have the free speech available to us.
00:08:35.300 I mean, this is what immigrants like me came to Canada for.
00:08:38.300 And it's very sad to see it go down the deep, dark hole.
00:08:42.660 Well, that's a tremendously important point.
00:08:45.080 And I do not at all want to put thoughts and words and attribute them to the AFSAL family,
00:08:50.980 who I never met.
00:08:52.020 But a lot of people who have come to this country have come here because they value
00:08:56.440 what it is that Canada is.
00:08:58.480 And that is not just a country that has legal protections for free speech,
00:09:02.380 but also a country that's by and large tolerant.
00:09:05.160 And I get very uncomfortable when events that are incredibly rare are used to,
00:09:11.400 in a way that extrapolates them to speak for Canada.
00:09:14.500 And that's also been what's happened even at a local level in my community.
00:09:18.140 People have said that, oh, well, no surprise this happened in London.
00:09:21.040 Well, the fact that this event is so significant is proof that it's rare
00:09:25.540 and proof that it doesn't speak for this country.
00:09:27.900 Of course, and it doesn't speak for all Canadians.
00:09:29.960 I find it very troubling when, you know, all Canadians are tarred with the same brush
00:09:35.240 of racism, that there is systemic racism.
00:09:37.480 No, there's not.
00:09:38.600 I've lived here, you know, for 30 years.
00:09:41.000 My children have grown up here.
00:09:42.780 And one anchor even asked me, you know, are you afraid to walk the street?
00:09:46.020 And I said, you must be joking.
00:09:48.240 You know, this is so naive and illogical to think that all Canadians are racist.
00:09:54.000 There are bad, evil elements in every society.
00:09:56.160 You know, I know as a Muslim that I don't like everyone to tar the terrorist brush
00:10:00.680 to all Muslims.
00:10:01.700 I mean, we are very conscious of that.
00:10:03.380 So we don't do that.
00:10:04.340 We shouldn't be doing this.
00:10:05.880 This is not all Canadians. 0.85
00:10:07.560 In fact, if anything, Canadians have shown how compassionate they are,
00:10:11.720 regardless of ethnicity, religion, caste, creed, colour.
00:10:15.860 They have come together.
00:10:17.120 They have shown their solidarity.
00:10:18.900 They have shown their compassion.
00:10:20.600 I have received personally so many emails from people who I hadn't seen for 20 years.
00:10:26.420 Just saying, we are sorry that this happened in your community.
00:10:29.400 And, you know, I come back to saying that, yes, this has happened and it's terrible.
00:10:33.380 It's a human tragedy.
00:10:35.280 You know, this is not because it is what happened to just people in my faith.
00:10:40.000 I would do the same for anyone in Canada if this happened.
00:10:44.040 And so we must remember to come together as one community,
00:10:47.260 as one people without divisiveness.
00:10:50.120 And I wish our politicians would stop dividing us, us and them.
00:10:54.580 That's not what it's about.
00:10:56.300 It's all of us together in this.
00:10:58.100 And we have to fight the hate.
00:10:59.400 Very well said.
00:11:02.320 And I think incredible words to end on.
00:11:04.420 Raheel Raza, President of the Council for Muslims Facing Tomorrow.
00:11:07.980 Raheel, thank you so much for your insight and your kindness on this.
00:11:11.180 I know you've always been a tremendous advocate for your community and for the country.
00:11:15.080 And I think we're very grateful to have your voice on this and in general.
00:11:18.540 So thank you.
00:11:19.520 Thank you, Andrew.
00:11:20.300 Have a great day.
00:11:21.000 Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:11:23.480 Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.