Juno News - Getting Out of the House

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's most irreverent talk show. This is the Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:00:12.880 Coming up, a confusing stay-at-home order, a malignant alliance between government and big tech, and the need to invest in Canadian oil.

00:00:22.860 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.

00:00:26.420 Welcome, everyone, to Canada's most irreverent talk show. This is the Andrew Lawton Show on True North.

00:00:35.520 Lockdown forced by state mandate to stay in the home studio for the next month.

00:00:40.260 Well, at least at home. I think I might be allowed to head to the bathroom or head to the kitchen.

00:00:44.300 We'll see how things go. Who knows? If the restrictions get any further, then I might be confined to here, in which case we'll do shows all the time. It'll be great.

00:00:51.900 This is day one of Ontario's new stay-at-home order, which is a term that you'd think would invite a little bit of clarity, although that hasn't at all been the case.

00:01:02.840 So as of 12.01 this morning, Eastern Time, Ontarians have to stay home unless they have an essential reason to leave.

00:01:11.220 Now, what is essential, you might ask? Well, that's a great question.

00:01:14.040 There are, I think, like 20-some-odd reasons that you can leave home.

00:01:18.500 One of them is if you work, but only if your employer has determined you have to be in a physical place other than home.

00:01:25.660 You can attend school. You can get childcare. You can get food. You can get personal care items.

00:01:30.940 You can get things you need to maintain or clean your house.

00:01:33.900 You can get something from curbside pickup. You can do a lot of other things here.

00:01:38.420 You can exercise. Take your dog for a walk. This is all fine, but there's a big question mark as to what this actually means.

00:01:47.620 Because on one hand, it's stay-at-home, but on the other hand, five people can get together outdoors, but ten people can get together indoors for a wedding.

00:01:55.760 You have to go out for only essential things, but non-essential businesses can still sell you things by curbside.

00:02:01.600 And all of this was making people scratch their heads so much, I was trying to cover this as it was coming out.

00:02:07.720 This was announced on, I think, Tuesday, and the thing that was so bizarre about it is that they kept changing the actual guidelines.

00:02:15.920 And we had a press release from the Ontario government. We had an FAQ that was released.

00:02:21.360 We had all of these other documents except for the actual stay-at-home order.

00:02:27.360 And I want to draw your attention.

00:02:29.020 This is the order and counsel signed by Premier Doug Ford from the Ontario government.

00:02:33.600 It goes into effect. You can see it right there under Section 2 at 12.01 a.m. on January 14th, 2021.

00:02:43.480 Now look at when it was approved.

00:02:46.760 January 13th, 5.56 p.m.

00:02:50.880 So this was put out six hours before it was put in law, which means if you're a business or an individual who's affected by this,

00:03:01.040 especially on the work-from-home stuff, because now you have to decide as a business if someone can do their job from home,

00:03:07.980 they have to legally. There's no wiggle room there.

00:03:10.720 So you had six hours to comply with this.

00:03:15.680 And as of today, we are now living in an era in which police can theoretically question you as to why you are out.

00:03:24.020 Now the government says they just want people to stay home.

00:03:26.780 They say it's perfectly clear, just stay home.

00:03:29.400 This was something Doug Ford even tweeted as far as our little wake-up call goes this morning.

00:03:34.000 He said,

00:03:34.220 Good morning, Ontario. Stay home.

00:03:36.280 That's actually what my phone says every morning.

00:03:38.360 Good morning and stay home.

00:03:39.800 It doesn't actually.

00:03:41.680 But they say it's perfectly clear, even though everyone's been asking questions.

00:03:46.040 Small business owners saying, according to the Toronto Star, we need more clarification on this.

00:03:50.840 Well, you're out of time.

00:03:52.160 Police services saying they have way more questions than answers on enforcing the new stay-at-home order.

00:03:59.820 This was a recurring theme that I was seeing where law enforcement officials were saying,

00:04:04.540 Well, we can't answer questions about how we're going to enforce this because we haven't actually seen the order.

00:04:10.700 So technically, police were supposed to be out enforcing this law at 12.01 a.m. this morning.

00:04:17.000 And they had no idea what the law would be until just shy of 6 p.m. yesterday because it kept changing.

00:04:22.860 And what the government has done in some ways is clamped down on people.

00:04:28.480 But in other ways, they've just put in something that looks more theatrical than anything else.

00:04:33.600 And the reason I say that is because they aren't actually answering a lot of the questions that are most necessary to have answered.

00:04:42.480 This frequently asked question thing they put out, admittedly, this came out on Wednesday morning.

00:04:49.900 So this was Wednesday morning responding to the confusion from Tuesday afternoon.

00:04:54.500 And this, again, was also something that was changed a few times after it before it was put in place.

00:05:00.540 But of all the questions that people are asking, the government cannot determine is what they're saying.

00:05:06.820 So what's an essential item?

00:05:08.260 The government can't determine what is essential for every person in this province.

00:05:11.840 Now, to be fair, I agree with this. 1.00

00:05:14.720 I agree that determining essential or non-essential is stupid. 0.96

00:05:18.120 And this was something Jason Kenney and I talked about at great length when we sat down just prior to the end of the year. 0.90

00:05:24.760 So for me, non-essential might be different than it is for you.

00:05:28.220 One of us might think that carrots are essential.

00:05:30.580 Someone else might think that a guitar amp is essential.

00:05:33.320 And I would say that if you can safely shop, then it doesn't really matter what you're buying.

00:05:38.260 But the government here is saying, on one hand, we're limiting.

00:05:40.720 You can only go out for essential reasons, but then refusing to define that.

00:05:44.520 Which, again, I agree with.

00:05:45.940 I'm just pointing out the inconsistency.

00:05:48.240 They say they can't determine what an essential trip is.

00:05:51.120 They say they can't determine what essential work is.

00:05:54.700 Is there a time limit for how long people can leave their homes?

00:05:58.520 No.

00:05:58.980 Well, we're asking people to use their best judgment.

00:06:01.160 Is there a limit on the number of times someone can leave their home in a day?

00:06:04.160 No.

00:06:04.640 We're asking Ontarians to use their best judgment.

00:06:07.460 Can people travel to their cottages or secondary residences?

00:06:10.580 In the spirit of the stay-at-home order, at this time, we are not recommending intra-provincial travel.

00:06:18.360 And the stay-at-home order says, well, you're allowed to go to a cottage or something for less than a day or more than 14 days.

00:06:24.940 But the whole point of this is that, on one hand, they're saying this is a state of emergency.

00:06:29.480 We must do all of this.

00:06:30.800 And then, on the other hand, they're just saying, ah, you know what?

00:06:33.040 Just figure it out.

00:06:33.840 Use your best judgment.

00:06:34.860 And, again, I mean, my whole approach to this since the beginning has been let people use their best judgment.

00:06:40.620 But having a state of emergency with law enforcement able to fine and harass and harangue does not jive with what this government is now saying,

00:06:50.780 which is that, well, you know what?

00:06:52.300 Companies can figure out for themselves what non-essential work is, what essential work is.

00:06:57.420 We have our list of industries.

00:06:59.240 But as far as working from home, just figure it out.

00:07:01.760 And the problem with the just figure it out approach, which sounds good on paper,

00:07:06.380 is that if, on one hand, you have the government saying that, but on the other hand,

00:07:11.320 you actually have creeping into the frontline law enforcement officers the opposite of that from perhaps someone along the chain,

00:07:19.220 maybe a commander or something or a captain, and they're actually saying, well, no, the province has said stay at home.

00:07:25.100 Therefore, we need to start pulling over cars on the street like a ride program.

00:07:29.100 And instead of smelling their breath, we're going to say, smells like non-essential products in here.

00:07:34.720 This smells like you've been doing something non-essential.

00:07:37.220 Get out, hands on the hood.

00:07:39.440 So I don't know.

00:07:40.540 And again, this is at this point speculative.

00:07:42.820 But with only six hours to review this, speculation is all we had.

00:07:49.780 Speculation is all we had.

00:07:51.060 So it's one thing to say good morning, Ontario, stay home.

00:07:53.700 It's another thing to call it a stay-at-home order.

00:07:57.180 But this is not something that we should be celebrating.

00:08:01.240 Unclear laws and rules and orders in council are not to be celebrated.

00:08:06.840 And remember, we talked on the show Monday with Ryan O'Connor about a curfew,

00:08:12.040 because at the time there was a talk of there potentially being a curfew imposed in Ontario.

00:08:17.300 And a lot of what happened in that discourse, I have to think, was deliberate.

00:08:22.980 I think that the government wanted to dangle out the curfew idea so that whatever they did would look reasonable,

00:08:28.880 because they already determined they weren't actually putting a curfew in.

00:08:32.380 That's one way to parse what happened.

00:08:35.160 Now, just because we don't have a curfew, I'm not exhaling and saying,

00:08:38.340 OK, great, you know, civil liberties protected.

00:08:40.100 Because if we find out in the coming days that law enforcement are starting to harass people or detain people

00:08:47.660 or force them to question what it is that they're doing when they're out,

00:08:52.220 then we actually have a 24-7 curfew.

00:08:55.240 It's not a curfew from 8 a.m. to 7 p.m.

00:08:57.220 It's an all-day, all-night curfew, because now you have to justify your existence at any point.

00:09:03.540 Now, I had posted a little tongue-in-cheek clip on Twitter where I said,

00:09:07.520 I'm all ready to go for the lockdown.

00:09:10.200 I'm all ready to go because I've got my essential permit.

00:09:12.660 This is a clip that may be familiar to some of you.

00:09:15.200 Not to worry. I have a permit.

00:09:19.080 This just says I can do what I want.

00:09:23.120 That is like an evergreen one.

00:09:24.900 I think I've dug that out a couple of times throughout the course of the pandemic.

00:09:27.760 We might need to start, like, issuing True North cards that just say that.

00:09:31.280 I can do what I want, you know, hashtag True North or something.

00:09:34.260 I don't know. I'll bring it up with the team.

00:09:36.400 But the whole point of what's happening right now is that if we are leaving people to their own devices

00:09:42.840 and saying, you can decide for yourself, then why not actually let them decide for themselves?

00:09:48.300 If we can shop at a grocery store safely, why can we not go to church safely?

00:09:52.600 If we can shop at a Costco safely, why can we not shop at a guitar store safely or something like that?

00:09:59.680 And the problem with this doublespeak is that it is what undermines people's confidence and trust in the system.

00:10:08.140 And this is something we've seen throughout the entirety of the pandemic.

00:10:11.340 When people don't understand the rules or can't make sense of them or see contradictions in them,

00:10:16.120 they start to just shrug.

00:10:17.620 And even well-meaning people who follow this stuff religiously,

00:10:21.320 people like me who will look up the order and counsel,

00:10:23.480 if I can't make sense of this, the average person who just scrolls the headlines and maybe not even that,

00:10:30.740 they're certainly not going to understand the distinction between government issues,

00:10:34.460 stay-at-home order, and well, you can actually leave home for this,

00:10:37.440 and you can, if you're single, go to another household, and you can do all that stuff.

00:10:41.120 So what I'm asking for is not a genuine stay-at-home order.

00:10:44.700 I'm asking for clarity so that we aren't on one hand saying we're doing something else and on the other hand not.

00:10:51.100 Because all that this leads to is a mentality when cases still keep going up of people saying,

00:10:56.560 well, I guess we didn't go far enough.

00:10:59.260 And the answer to that is to say, well, no,

00:11:01.800 it's because the original guidelines were not communicated at all with any sort of clarity,

00:11:07.260 so we can't expect them to have actually had the desired effect.

00:11:11.020 And remember that, well, people in Ontario and elsewhere in the country,

00:11:15.260 like in Quebec, are being told not to leave their homes and denied this right and that right,

00:11:20.420 and businesses are being shut down.

00:11:22.100 There's a certain class of person that is exempt from the rules. 0.99

00:11:26.460 This story out of British Columbia is simply asinine. 0.50

00:11:30.800 Meng Wanzhou, the Huawei CFO who is currently on bail in British Columbia, 0.78

00:11:36.160 her family was granted a federal travel exemption by the immigration minister's office

00:11:43.300 to come into Canada despite having no legal basis to come to Canada.

00:11:47.760 So this is a woman who is literally on trial. 1.00

00:11:51.580 A woman who's literally on trial. 1.00

00:11:54.080 And Meng Wanzhou's husband, Liu Zhaozong,

00:11:57.860 and if you speak Mandarin, I'm sorry if I've butchered that,

00:12:01.680 but her husband and their children applied for an exemption to the travel ban,

00:12:06.880 to the border closure, to travel from China in December.

00:12:10.320 They came here and they are still here.

00:12:13.040 And they were authorized, specifically authorized, to get around the law.

00:12:18.620 Right now, you're only allowed to come if you have immediate family

00:12:21.720 who are either Canadian citizens or permanent residents.

00:12:25.240 Wanzhou is neither of them.

00:12:26.840 She is here under detention.

00:12:29.360 She is here being detained while extradition is pending to the United States.

00:12:35.900 And the Prime Minister's office is not commenting if it knew about the application.

00:12:40.920 The Parliamentary Secretary to the Foreign Affairs Minister, Rob Olofant, defended it.

00:12:45.560 He said,

00:12:46.360 Canada is a country of the rule of law.

00:12:49.100 We do not let whether we like someone or dislike someone

00:12:52.480 get in the way of us absolutely fulfilling our responsibilities.

00:12:57.080 I think we should absolutely do that.

00:12:59.840 We should absolutely do that because this is not a country

00:13:03.540 that should have an open border approach,

00:13:06.420 especially when the border is closed to anyone else.

00:13:09.300 If my friend wants to come and see the beautiful Rocky Mountains,

00:13:12.260 he can't do it.

00:13:13.020 If my friend wants to go somewhere else,

00:13:15.340 I'm talking about any friend, not a specific friend,

00:13:17.780 but Americans cannot come to Canada.

00:13:19.880 Brits cannot come to Canada. 0.99

00:13:21.500 Yet, if you are a Chinese national whose wife is on trial

00:13:26.280 in Canada, you're allowed to get around the law

00:13:28.640 and come and spend an indefinite amount of time here.

00:13:32.480 So we should absolutely say,

00:13:34.140 you know what, we actually don't like you.

00:13:35.720 You don't have a right to come here.

00:13:37.200 Ergo, we're not going to just open up the gates for you on this.

00:13:41.060 That is an entirely reasonable response.

00:13:43.500 Now, at this level, at this level, and again, this part is speculative,

00:13:47.920 but former Canadian ambassador Guy Saint-Jacques says that discussions at this level

00:13:52.940 definitely would have gone to the desk of the minister.

00:13:55.640 So it's very possible, very likely, that the minister authorized,

00:14:00.100 or at the very least knew about this,

00:14:02.580 which means that the Trudeau government is complicit in this particular decision.

00:14:07.360 One lawyer in Toronto, an immigration lawyer, Chantal Deloge,

00:14:11.140 says that this is already discretionary.

00:14:13.860 Lots of people who have a legitimate claim get turned down.

00:14:17.280 So why on earth, I ask, would this one not go the same route?

00:14:23.060 But here's the issue.

00:14:24.300 If you support the border closure,

00:14:26.040 if you support the idea of shutting down the border,

00:14:28.480 making it so people can't travel to Canada,

00:14:30.740 and making it difficult for people even to visit their families,

00:14:33.680 then at the very least,

00:14:34.860 if we're going to make an exception for anyone,

00:14:36.920 let's not make it for a Meng Wanzhou's family.

00:14:41.080 This is not an unreasonable thing.

00:14:43.100 So right now, what happens is anyone connected with the Chinese Politburo

00:14:49.060 seems to be doing completely fine.

00:14:51.520 We had, you know, theme parks opening in Wuhan.

00:14:54.060 We have Chinese nationals connected to Huawei,

00:14:57.020 which is an extension of the state Politburo

00:14:59.420 that are allowed to come to Canada when no one else can.

00:15:02.380 And it's weird.

00:15:03.100 My friend Mark Stein has pointed it out,

00:15:05.520 that it's just China's world, and we're all living in it.

00:15:08.140 And that seems truer and truer with each passing day.

00:15:11.160 We've got to take a break.

00:15:12.520 We'll be back with more of The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:15:14.520 Stay tuned.

00:15:15.000 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:15:21.340 We are back.

00:15:22.640 And as we talked about on the previous show,

00:15:25.340 Parler, the supposed conservative pro-free speech alternative

00:15:28.900 to Facebook and Twitter,

00:15:31.100 is still offline.

00:15:32.840 The CEO of Parler the other day said

00:15:35.000 that it might not ever come back.

00:15:37.040 They don't know because they're finding that not a single vendor

00:15:39.520 wants to do business with them.

00:15:41.580 Some of them might have a moral objection.

00:15:43.980 Others might just be afraid of themselves being boycotted.

00:15:47.340 And we'll be talking about boycotts

00:15:48.740 in another context in the next segment.

00:15:51.200 But this is the reality of it.

00:15:52.880 And when I talked about this last week,

00:15:54.880 I actually had some pushback

00:15:56.420 from people that thought I was kind of talking about

00:15:58.980 this from both sides.

00:16:00.340 On one hand, I said,

00:16:01.660 yes, you know, I'm a libertarian.

00:16:03.100 Companies need to self-regulate,

00:16:04.680 and the market will prevail or should.

00:16:06.680 And on the other hand,

00:16:07.800 I conceded that the libertarian approach

00:16:10.040 has a lot of significant challenges,

00:16:12.340 which is where Parler is right now,

00:16:14.380 which is that you have to build your own internet.

00:16:16.080 You have to build your own everything.

00:16:17.700 And I wasn't trying to talk out of both sides of my mouth.

00:16:20.340 I was just trying to concede

00:16:21.860 that I understand the libertarian utopia

00:16:25.380 that I would like to be the case

00:16:26.940 is not, in fact, as easy.

00:16:29.620 That's all.

00:16:31.040 That's all I was pointing out.

00:16:32.340 And yes, companies can self-host,

00:16:34.320 and we're moving more and more towards that.

00:16:36.180 I think the real lesson here has to be

00:16:38.420 that you cannot create a business

00:16:39.900 that is dependent on another business,

00:16:43.100 especially if you're doing something

00:16:44.440 remotely connected to conservative politics.

00:16:47.760 But it is interesting that a lot of people

00:16:50.140 that hated Parler, that hated Trump,

00:16:51.980 were using the events of the Capitol raid

00:16:54.440 as an excuse to do what they wanted to do anyway.

00:16:57.700 And we see this with the impeachment of Donald Trump.

00:17:00.400 A lot of the impeachment rhetoric

00:17:02.180 started before he even took office.

00:17:04.580 So the impeachment was going to happen.

00:17:06.780 The reason he's been impeached twice

00:17:08.160 is because he would be impeached 19 times

00:17:11.040 if they could do it.

00:17:12.100 They just want him out.

00:17:14.460 And they want conservatives off the internet.

00:17:17.260 They want Parler off the internet.

00:17:19.080 So they're going to use whatever cudgel they can

00:17:22.620 to achieve that.

00:17:24.440 It is interesting, though,

00:17:25.640 because everyone wanted to blame Parler,

00:17:28.100 which is this upstart, relatively small organization,

00:17:31.020 without actually looking at the role

00:17:32.700 that Facebook and Twitter had in themselves

00:17:35.380 becoming venues for people to talk about

00:17:38.980 their discontent with the U.S. government,

00:17:41.580 which, again, according to the logic of the last week

00:17:44.440 is what led to the Capitol raid,

00:17:46.620 people talking about it on social media.

00:17:48.820 Facebook itself is implicated in this.

00:17:51.140 Sheryl Sandberg, who's a Facebook executive,

00:17:53.920 said, oh, no, no, no, Facebook is not really responsible.

00:17:56.800 And this is a piece in the Stamford Advocate

00:17:59.160 pointing out how 100,000 users posted hashtags

00:18:03.220 that include stop the steal and fight for Trump.

00:18:07.780 Now, this is something that as well,

00:18:09.880 if we are to use Facebook's and Twitter's

00:18:12.480 and Amazon's and Apple's and Google's

00:18:14.220 own logic against them,

00:18:15.620 well, we've got to deplatform Facebook now.

00:18:18.160 This is the reality.

00:18:20.080 I'm just looking for equality across the board here.

00:18:23.080 So here's the problem, though.

00:18:24.700 I don't like big tech companies.

00:18:26.320 I really don't like government.

00:18:28.520 And this story has not gotten a lot of attention yet.

00:18:31.300 But a briefing note in the Heritage Ministry in Canada

00:18:34.640 called Regulation of Social Media Platforms

00:18:37.820 indicates that the Canadian government

00:18:39.880 will be tabling a bill this year, early this year,

00:18:42.820 that will challenge and actually, in some cases,

00:18:45.980 censor the content put on social media,

00:18:49.280 specifically on the big tech platforms.

00:18:51.360 This is from Blacklock's reporter.

00:18:53.280 Now, remember, hate speech, already illegal in Canada,

00:19:05.100 has been for years.

00:19:06.640 We already have laws that govern speech

00:19:08.820 that meets a very high threshold of criminality.

00:19:12.180 Anything beyond that will simply be about speech

00:19:16.560 that the government doesn't like.

00:19:19.180 And by forcing Facebook and Twitter to deal with this,

00:19:23.100 lest they be fined or penalized,

00:19:25.340 and again, we don't yet know for sure

00:19:26.660 what the rule is going to look like,

00:19:29.000 all these companies will have to do

00:19:30.700 is take a broader and more aggressive approach

00:19:33.940 to moderation,

00:19:36.340 which means less speech, not more.

00:19:39.640 So whenever anyone starts talking about,

00:19:42.600 oh, well, I support free speech,

00:19:44.180 but I don't support hate speech,

00:19:45.440 you have to ask them to define hate speech.

00:19:48.480 And I sat in on the meetings of the Heritage Committee

00:19:51.860 when they were debating and discussing

00:19:53.740 what has become this law.

00:19:55.380 I listened to the ones I wasn't in Ottawa for.

00:19:57.900 I read the report.

00:19:59.240 Nowhere is hate speech defined.

00:20:02.100 The only definition that exists

00:20:03.520 is the criminal code definition,

00:20:05.140 which clearly won't be their definition,

00:20:06.860 because if it were,

00:20:07.840 it wouldn't actually be necessary

00:20:09.260 because that speech is already illegal.

00:20:12.820 So this is going to be used as a weapon

00:20:16.100 against quote unquote offensive speech,

00:20:19.040 which is the only type of speech

00:20:20.680 that needs legal protection.

00:20:22.560 You don't need legal protection

00:20:23.720 for benign, inoffensive speech

00:20:25.940 because no one would challenge its existence.

00:20:28.700 And the only thing worse than big tech censorship

00:20:31.380 is government censorship.

00:20:33.380 The only thing worse than that

00:20:34.480 is government empowered big tech censorship,

00:20:37.500 because then you don't even have

00:20:38.880 the legal remedies that you do

00:20:40.540 if the government's going after you.

00:20:43.220 So mark my words,

00:20:44.520 this is going to be a very dark day for the internet.

00:20:47.120 We've got to wrap things up for this segment.

00:20:49.000 We'll be back in a few moments

00:20:50.120 with more of Canada's most irreverent talk show.

00:20:52.840 Stay tuned.

00:20:57.400 You're tuned in to the Andrew Lawton Show.

00:21:00.060 Welcome back to the Andrew Lawton Show.

00:21:06.480 We talk a lot about cancel culture,

00:21:08.500 people trying to boycott.

00:21:10.580 Well, what about when it happens

00:21:12.100 to the Canadian energy sector?

00:21:14.560 A lot of people might not be aware of this,

00:21:16.540 but there's a movement afoot in a lot of areas,

00:21:18.920 not the least of which is academia,

00:21:21.160 that is trying to get people to divest

00:21:23.340 from Canada's energy sector.

00:21:25.800 A group has come up to respond to this

00:21:28.500 and explain why it's not just wrong,

00:21:30.200 but not even particularly effective.

00:21:32.640 And that is Invest Now,

00:21:34.240 which just launched in the last few weeks here.

00:21:36.260 The executive director, Gina Papano, joins me now.

00:21:39.760 Gina, good to talk to you.

00:21:40.700 Thanks very much for coming on.

00:21:42.800 Thank you, Andrew.

00:21:43.480 Thanks for having me.

00:21:44.540 So what is Invest Now and why was it necessary?

00:21:48.660 Well, Invest Now is a not-for-profit

00:21:50.380 dedicated to challenging the divestment narrative.

00:21:54.580 Why is it necessary?

00:21:55.800 We think that people don't realize

00:22:00.060 that these movements are taking place,

00:22:03.020 starting out in the universities and colleges,

00:22:05.600 also religious organizations.

00:22:08.660 And in Canada, it's slowly but surely

00:22:10.500 making its way into pension funds,

00:22:13.800 divestments, institutional funds,

00:22:16.340 and municipalities are speaking about divestment.

00:22:20.600 And so we decided to launch Invest Now

00:22:23.460 to challenge the divestment narrative,

00:22:25.940 to say divestment is wrong.

00:22:28.040 It doesn't achieve what it's purported to achieve,

00:22:30.600 which is doesn't reduce emissions.

00:22:33.280 And Canada has some of the best energy companies

00:22:36.400 in the world.

00:22:37.260 It doesn't reduce demand.

00:22:39.160 So the supply will come from elsewhere.

00:22:41.600 Let's take a couple of steps back here 0.76

00:22:43.760 for people that aren't familiar with this.

00:22:45.480 What is the actual process that's happening

00:22:48.940 as it pertains to energy?

00:22:50.560 And what's the rationale used

00:22:52.200 when agencies or institutions

00:22:54.520 or even just investment funds

00:22:56.680 are making these determinations?

00:22:59.740 Well, what's happening is

00:23:01.000 a group out of the US called 350.org

00:23:04.040 is setting up pockets on campus.

00:23:07.320 Let's take a campus activist groups

00:23:10.460 as an example.

00:23:11.520 So they're setting up activist groups on campus

00:23:15.460 who are writing letters to the Board of Governors

00:23:18.480 because it's the Board of Governors

00:23:19.840 and the university presidents

00:23:21.100 that are making these decisions.

00:23:23.120 And they're asking for the endowment fund

00:23:26.040 to be divested of fossil fuels.

00:23:28.720 And they give it timelines.

00:23:30.400 And the reason is because

00:23:31.820 they are trying to send the message

00:23:34.660 that fossil fuels are bad.

00:23:38.200 And to divest is right

00:23:40.840 and to invest is wrong.

00:23:42.940 And so the Board of Governors has a vote.

00:23:46.680 These groups are setting up protests on campus.

00:23:50.420 And then Guelph is a perfect example.

00:23:53.000 Last year, they voted for divestment

00:23:55.900 and only three people voted against it

00:23:59.640 on the Board of Governors.

00:24:01.600 So we're realizing that the other side

00:24:04.080 is not being told,

00:24:05.200 the other side of the messaging.

00:24:06.260 And we're trying to write our own letters

00:24:09.340 to the Board of Governors

00:24:10.260 and university presidents

00:24:11.280 to say, consider this especially for Canada.

00:24:15.620 We don't think people realize

00:24:16.900 how important the Canadian energy sector is

00:24:19.060 to the economy,

00:24:20.240 to running universities,

00:24:21.880 to running everything in our cities.

00:24:24.040 And we want to get that message out there.

00:24:26.420 We know that Canadian energy stocks,

00:24:29.080 to use one metric,

00:24:30.320 are in a pretty rough spot.

00:24:31.960 I think a lot of people

00:24:32.740 who have invested in this have been.

00:24:34.620 And I include myself in this category,

00:24:36.700 a bit frustrated with performance

00:24:38.360 or underperformance in some ways.

00:24:40.200 You, of course, worked at the TSX.

00:24:41.820 You're well aware of this.

00:24:43.020 This is not about the actual economics

00:24:46.060 of this, though, correct?

00:24:47.220 These aren't determinations

00:24:48.580 because people are saying

00:24:49.560 they're not sound investments.

00:24:50.780 No, these are more based

00:24:54.480 on an ideological framework.

00:24:57.480 Wow.

00:24:57.760 So they're taking away a whole sector.

00:25:01.580 So they're not saying

00:25:02.780 don't invest in fossil fuels

00:25:04.320 because the returns aren't great.

00:25:06.120 They're saying

00:25:06.900 don't invest in fossil fuels at all.

00:25:09.100 So even companies

00:25:10.480 that are performing well,

00:25:11.540 which there are some,

00:25:12.500 and the pension funds

00:25:14.020 or the investors

00:25:14.820 can't invest in that company

00:25:17.720 because they've committed

00:25:18.820 to not investing

00:25:20.060 in any fossil fuel company.

00:25:21.940 So that's the issue.

00:25:23.800 It's that you're removing

00:25:25.280 an entire sector

00:25:26.460 from the investment portfolio.

00:25:28.360 A lot of us expect

00:25:29.980 these sorts of very,

00:25:31.640 frankly, wacky,

00:25:32.640 and I don't say that

00:25:33.500 to downplay how damaging it is,

00:25:35.000 but a lot of us expect

00:25:35.900 this sort of wackiness

00:25:37.260 from academia

00:25:38.120 and from universities.

00:25:39.140 But you said this is starting

00:25:40.740 to creep a little bit

00:25:42.160 into the mainstream.

00:25:43.600 How is that?

00:25:45.220 Yes.

00:25:45.640 Well, just recently,

00:25:47.620 a group of students

00:25:48.800 put out a video

00:25:51.340 for the Ontario Teachers

00:25:53.540 to pressure

00:25:55.440 the Ontario Teachers Pension Plan

00:25:57.200 to divest from fossil fuels.

00:25:59.520 So it's starting

00:26:00.360 to creep into pension funds

00:26:02.820 and also Canada Pension Plan

00:26:04.900 has been approached

00:26:06.340 by these activist groups

00:26:09.240 to divest from fossil fuels.

00:26:11.400 So it starts out

00:26:12.120 in the universities,

00:26:13.080 but it's gaining momentum.

00:26:14.260 And especially in Canada

00:26:15.520 where we have the best

00:26:19.000 in the world

00:26:19.580 in terms of energy companies

00:26:21.320 for ESG reasons.

00:26:24.940 They're transparent.

00:26:26.940 Our corporate governance standards

00:26:28.240 are very high.

00:26:30.080 And so we want to think

00:26:32.120 about what you're doing

00:26:33.720 when you're saying

00:26:34.340 you're divesting

00:26:34.920 from Canada's energy sector.

00:26:37.720 Yeah, and that's actually

00:26:39.140 an important point of this

00:26:40.500 because when the Canadian

00:26:42.200 energy sector is weakened,

00:26:43.880 it means that the demand

00:26:46.140 just shifts to other parts

00:26:47.780 of the world.

00:26:48.340 The product itself

00:26:49.320 does not go down in demand.

00:26:50.820 I know there was something

00:26:51.660 that your organization

00:26:52.880 mentioned previously,

00:26:53.760 which is that if the oil

00:26:55.000 and gas that is provided

00:26:57.160 by Canada is not needed,

00:26:58.540 all we're going to do

00:26:59.540 is get it from Iran

00:27:00.640 and Saudi Arabia

00:27:01.600 and Russia.

00:27:02.460 And there's a lot of

00:27:04.560 just common sense

00:27:06.000 missing from the crusade

00:27:08.640 against the Canadian

00:27:09.580 energy sector.

00:27:11.120 That's right.

00:27:11.940 And that's what we're

00:27:12.620 trying to insert

00:27:13.760 some common sense

00:27:14.760 into the fight.

00:27:18.020 Now, let me ask you

00:27:19.560 about where this is

00:27:21.240 actually going from here

00:27:22.540 because there's a risk

00:27:24.000 as well, I think,

00:27:25.280 that when more of this

00:27:26.940 becomes mainstreamed,

00:27:28.460 it only extends further.

00:27:30.520 So for now,

00:27:31.380 it could be a pension fund

00:27:32.580 saying we don't want

00:27:33.320 to invest in the energy sector.

00:27:35.420 And then the next step

00:27:36.240 could be we don't want

00:27:37.020 to invest in companies

00:27:37.980 that invest in that

00:27:39.460 unless they don't invest

00:27:40.560 in the energy sector.

00:27:41.540 And at a certain point,

00:27:42.440 it becomes where people

00:27:44.100 are trying to wall off

00:27:45.340 this entire industry,

00:27:46.840 which is not just an industry,

00:27:48.140 but a hugely critical

00:27:49.380 one for Canada.

00:27:51.060 Yes.

00:27:51.540 And it also extends

00:27:52.520 to other sectors

00:27:53.360 who rely on the oil

00:27:54.740 and gas.

00:27:55.400 It can extend

00:27:56.700 to other sectors

00:27:57.720 that rely on the oil

00:27:58.700 and gas industry

00:27:59.520 to operate,

00:28:01.280 you know,

00:28:01.460 the manufacturing sector,

00:28:02.580 the mining sector,

00:28:04.180 agriculture.

00:28:05.680 All sectors really rely

00:28:07.640 on the energy,

00:28:10.020 hydrocarbons,

00:28:10.960 to run their businesses.

00:28:12.740 So it's a slippery slope

00:28:14.700 and we're trying to

00:28:16.580 halt it

00:28:18.280 and present the other side.

00:28:21.060 One of the things

00:28:21.800 that Invest Now says

00:28:23.300 is that divestment

00:28:24.460 cannot alter

00:28:25.360 basic economic realities.

00:28:27.120 In that sense,

00:28:28.700 why does this matter?

00:28:29.780 Why does divestment

00:28:30.720 pose a risk

00:28:31.500 if it really,

00:28:32.400 in your view,

00:28:33.120 doesn't change

00:28:33.700 all that much?

00:28:35.640 Well,

00:28:36.020 if companies,

00:28:37.400 if the investment climate

00:28:39.340 is not welcoming

00:28:40.400 to companies,

00:28:41.320 they'll take

00:28:41.680 their business elsewhere.

00:28:43.420 So companies need capital

00:28:45.240 to do their business,

00:28:47.380 especially public companies,

00:28:48.720 obviously.

00:28:49.560 And if people

00:28:51.620 aren't investing

00:28:52.260 in these companies,

00:28:53.020 they will go

00:28:54.700 to a more favorable

00:28:56.220 climate,

00:28:56.940 which is leaving Canada.

00:28:59.880 And that's something

00:29:01.600 we've already seen

00:29:02.480 too much of.

00:29:03.400 I don't think

00:29:03.940 we need to see

00:29:04.500 any more of it,

00:29:05.140 nor do we want to.

00:29:06.800 Especially at this time

00:29:08.040 when we're trying

00:29:08.660 to dig ourselves there.

00:29:10.280 Yeah.

00:29:10.540 But you raise

00:29:11.860 an important point there,

00:29:12.840 which is that

00:29:13.280 now especially,

00:29:14.920 I mean,

00:29:15.100 I'd argue there's never

00:29:15.880 a time we want

00:29:16.480 to be waging war

00:29:17.240 against Canadian business,

00:29:18.660 but now especially,

00:29:20.060 we can't afford

00:29:21.000 to be picking

00:29:22.240 and choosing

00:29:22.780 on these really

00:29:23.620 bizarre and skewed

00:29:25.260 supposed moral grounds,

00:29:27.020 which companies

00:29:27.700 are worth doing

00:29:28.320 business with

00:29:28.960 and which aren't.

00:29:30.760 That's right.

00:29:31.260 And they're providing jobs.

00:29:33.560 Well, jobs is

00:29:34.320 a moral issue as well,

00:29:37.120 providing jobs

00:29:37.780 for people,

00:29:38.340 livelihoods.

00:29:39.920 Where do we draw the line?

00:29:41.560 If you start looking

00:29:42.760 at things

00:29:44.020 from that perspective

00:29:44.980 instead of from,

00:29:46.940 okay,

00:29:47.260 we're investing

00:29:47.820 in this company,

00:29:48.520 it's a good company,

00:29:49.440 they're innovative,

00:29:50.080 they're reducing emissions

00:29:52.040 and that's taken away.

00:29:53.720 Those types of criteria

00:29:55.400 are taken away

00:29:56.280 if you just divest

00:29:57.940 from the entire sector.

00:29:59.680 Now,

00:30:00.260 let me ask a bit

00:30:00.940 about InvestNow itself

00:30:02.600 because I know

00:30:03.200 your background

00:30:03.820 is obviously in finance.

00:30:05.800 Is this coming about

00:30:06.880 from people

00:30:07.620 in the energy sector?

00:30:10.600 Yes.

00:30:11.320 Well,

00:30:11.680 I've been following

00:30:12.760 the movement.

00:30:13.460 The movement's

00:30:14.160 about 10 years old

00:30:16.580 in the United States

00:30:18.120 and in UK

00:30:19.060 and in Canada,

00:30:20.300 I've just noticed

00:30:21.320 some of the universities,

00:30:22.560 there's six universities

00:30:23.560 now that have pledged

00:30:24.560 to divest.

00:30:25.740 I've been watching

00:30:26.400 the movements

00:30:26.920 for about two years

00:30:28.140 and I just see

00:30:29.280 that it's extending

00:30:30.700 its reach.

00:30:32.600 And I've spoken

00:30:33.740 to a few people,

00:30:34.620 I have a group

00:30:35.100 of investors

00:30:35.960 that are interested

00:30:37.400 in this movement

00:30:39.140 and also presenting,

00:30:40.860 as I said,

00:30:41.260 the other side,

00:30:42.100 which isn't being heard.

00:30:43.800 I don't think people

00:30:44.540 realize what's happening.

00:30:45.840 So the protesters

00:30:48.220 are out there

00:30:49.620 and we need

00:30:50.260 to be out there

00:30:50.980 as well

00:30:51.380 to say,

00:30:52.380 think about this

00:30:53.860 and consider

00:30:55.720 the other options.

00:30:57.860 And one thing

00:30:58.600 you pointed out earlier

00:30:59.600 that I wanted

00:31:00.280 to circle back to

00:31:01.340 was that a lot

00:31:02.240 of this is being

00:31:02.920 driven by a U.S. 0.60

00:31:04.020 organization,

00:31:04.620 you said,

00:31:04.960 correct?

00:31:06.060 Yes.

00:31:06.600 And that means

00:31:07.180 U.S. funding

00:31:08.100 of this.

00:31:08.880 And we know

00:31:09.280 whenever the energy

00:31:10.220 sector is involved,

00:31:11.340 the amount of money

00:31:12.480 that goes into

00:31:13.920 the anti-energy

00:31:15.740 sector side

00:31:16.680 of this thing

00:31:17.240 is always vastly

00:31:18.280 more than

00:31:18.920 the pro-energy

00:31:19.520 side is able

00:31:20.720 to put in

00:31:21.360 or are historically

00:31:21.940 willing to put in.

00:31:23.520 That's right.

00:31:24.220 They're very well funded.

00:31:25.540 As I said,

00:31:26.480 they set up groups

00:31:27.560 on campuses

00:31:28.460 everywhere.

00:31:29.960 You type in

00:31:30.960 go fossil free

00:31:31.980 blank university

00:31:34.120 and they're there

00:31:35.920 and the groups

00:31:36.680 are set up.

00:31:37.340 So we're behind

00:31:38.920 in that sense

00:31:39.740 that we have to,

00:31:40.500 we also have to

00:31:42.220 start setting up

00:31:44.520 our groups

00:31:46.320 that say,

00:31:46.880 well,

00:31:47.240 don't divest,

00:31:48.360 invest.

00:31:50.000 So I know

00:31:50.960 this is a new

00:31:51.700 organization

00:31:52.380 and obviously

00:31:52.980 everything this year

00:31:54.020 is a little bit

00:31:55.000 upside down

00:31:56.300 as far as

00:31:57.140 just how business

00:31:57.920 is working

00:31:58.420 and how communications

00:31:59.340 are working.

00:32:00.100 But have you found

00:32:01.120 that there has been

00:32:02.240 a receptiveness

00:32:03.340 from some of the people

00:32:04.440 that are being targeted

00:32:05.360 by the anti-oil activists

00:32:07.040 to at least hear you out?

00:32:09.620 Yes, I have.

00:32:10.280 And also we could use

00:32:11.520 this to our advantage

00:32:12.420 given the fact

00:32:13.100 that students

00:32:14.100 aren't on campus

00:32:14.980 right now

00:32:15.520 so there aren't

00:32:16.460 protests happening

00:32:18.140 to the same effects

00:32:19.760 that they were before.

00:32:21.920 And I think

00:32:22.580 by writing to,

00:32:24.100 by reaching out

00:32:24.800 to boards of governors,

00:32:26.880 university presidents,

00:32:28.340 institutional funds,

00:32:29.500 we can get our message

00:32:31.020 across a little bit

00:32:31.920 on the same footing

00:32:33.740 as the other groups.

00:32:36.200 People always ask me

00:32:37.460 when I bring up

00:32:38.000 these issues

00:32:38.480 what they can do

00:32:39.220 about it.

00:32:39.700 So I will ask,

00:32:40.500 do you think

00:32:40.760 there is a value

00:32:41.560 in alumni

00:32:42.560 reaching out

00:32:43.240 to their boards

00:32:43.720 of governors

00:32:44.160 with a similar message?

00:32:46.160 Yes, I do.

00:32:46.860 And I also think

00:32:47.820 that they should consider

00:32:48.800 the money going

00:32:49.900 into the endowment fund.

00:32:52.720 They're willing

00:32:53.700 to accept

00:32:54.220 any money

00:32:54.800 coming into

00:32:55.380 the endowment fund.

00:32:56.280 Well, a lot of that time

00:32:57.320 it's money coming

00:32:58.500 from the oil

00:32:59.020 and gas sector

00:32:59.780 or related

00:33:00.920 to the oil

00:33:01.540 and gas sector

00:33:02.080 like a plastics company

00:33:03.400 did the biggest

00:33:05.280 donation ever

00:33:06.040 to Guelph.

00:33:07.160 Well, you can't

00:33:08.940 have plastics

00:33:09.560 without petrochemicals.

00:33:11.240 So I also want

00:33:12.460 to get across

00:33:14.020 the interconnections

00:33:15.760 between companies

00:33:16.700 and the oil

00:33:17.380 and gas sector.

00:33:18.760 And I do think

00:33:19.640 we are going

00:33:20.480 to reach out

00:33:20.960 to alumni

00:33:21.480 and the corporate sector

00:33:22.760 because they are

00:33:23.640 the ones investing

00:33:26.400 in the endowment funds

00:33:27.820 to say,

00:33:28.540 do you realize

00:33:29.500 that this is also happening?

00:33:31.420 They're taking the money

00:33:32.500 on one hand

00:33:33.160 and divesting

00:33:33.920 from your sector

00:33:35.060 on the other.

00:33:36.320 I know we have

00:33:36.920 a lot of people

00:33:38.200 in the West

00:33:38.780 that work in this sector

00:33:39.960 and even people

00:33:40.700 just around the country

00:33:41.520 that work in it

00:33:42.640 or just care a lot

00:33:43.600 about it.

00:33:44.020 So I'm glad

00:33:44.580 you're doing this.

00:33:45.360 I know that

00:33:45.840 a lot of people

00:33:46.660 tend to try

00:33:47.720 to downplay

00:33:48.340 what's happening

00:33:48.920 on campuses

00:33:49.580 because it's,

00:33:50.320 oh, it's just,

00:33:50.740 you know,

00:33:50.900 what the universities

00:33:51.620 are doing.

00:33:52.280 But as we've seen

00:33:53.240 time and time again,

00:33:54.220 this can have

00:33:54.860 a ripple effect

00:33:55.600 and this already

00:33:56.360 is going

00:33:57.280 in that direction.

00:33:58.160 The organization

00:33:58.940 Invest Now,

00:33:59.860 you can learn more

00:34:00.400 about it

00:34:00.700 at investnow.org,

00:34:02.380 the executive director.

00:34:03.740 Gina Papano joins me.

00:34:05.240 Gina, thank you so much

00:34:06.240 and congratulations

00:34:06.960 on this.

00:34:08.680 Thank you.

00:34:09.280 Thanks very much, Andrew.

00:34:10.440 Have a good day.

00:34:11.640 I'm so glad.

00:34:12.180 Now, I actually just

00:34:13.100 learned about

00:34:14.200 what Gina was doing.

00:34:15.520 I learned about Invest Now

00:34:16.460 earlier in the week

00:34:18.060 and I instantly said,

00:34:18.960 okay, this is something

00:34:19.520 I have to talk about

00:34:20.560 on the show.

00:34:21.360 And the reason is

00:34:22.380 because I alluded

00:34:23.600 to it with Gina.

00:34:24.660 So many times

00:34:25.380 people will message me

00:34:27.280 and say,

00:34:27.620 well, yeah,

00:34:27.980 you know,

00:34:28.180 this is terrible.

00:34:28.820 The world's going 0.82

00:34:29.380 to hell in a handbasket. 0.89

00:34:30.700 But what can I do about it? 0.92

00:34:32.060 So anytime we have

00:34:33.320 an opportunity

00:34:33.940 where there is

00:34:34.880 an action item of sorts

00:34:36.340 or a group

00:34:37.000 that's taking action,

00:34:38.340 I think it's good

00:34:39.060 to spotlight that.

00:34:40.400 So in this case,

00:34:41.200 yeah,

00:34:41.440 if you're a university alumnus

00:34:43.400 and you are seeing

00:34:45.140 this university

00:34:46.440 that you have paid money to,

00:34:48.480 that you have taken

00:34:49.120 a degree from,

00:34:50.200 start to go after

00:34:51.280 this method

00:34:52.660 of divestment

00:34:53.920 or at least

00:34:54.420 entertaining it,

00:34:55.860 you can push back

00:34:56.740 against it

00:34:57.160 and you should

00:34:57.540 push back against it.

00:34:58.940 And the oil companies

00:35:00.400 should not be giving money

00:35:01.780 to these institutions

00:35:02.880 if they don't want

00:35:03.580 anything to do

00:35:04.260 with the Canadian

00:35:05.500 energy sector.

00:35:06.600 We've got to wrap

00:35:07.720 things up for today.

00:35:08.540 We'll be back next week

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00:35:13.220 Lawton Show

00:35:13.700 on True North.

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00:35:24.760 And we very much

00:35:25.500 appreciate your support.

00:35:26.540 We'll talk to you soon,

00:35:27.220 Canada.

00:35:27.680 Thank you,

00:35:28.160 God bless,

00:35:28.700 and good day.

00:35:29.460 Thanks for listening

00:35:30.120 to the Andrew Lawton Show.

00:35:31.560 Support the program

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Juno News - January 14, 2021

Getting Out of the House

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