Juno News - Google vows to ban news in Canada (ft. Kris Sims)

00:00:00.000 I do want to turn to a related, although distinct aspect of this, which is that we were in the

00:00:13.900 midst of an international crisis. People were trying to figure out if their family members

00:00:17.940 were okay. They were trying to get on top of it. And if you were in Canada, you had a heck of a

00:00:22.300 time getting access to this news on social media, specifically on Facebook. Now, if you were a

00:00:28.680 Twitter user, there was actually a high volume of content coming out of the Middle East over the

00:00:33.480 weekend. But on Facebook, there was nothing. News links were banned because yet again, Bill C18 has

00:00:40.400 forced social media and tech companies into the untenable position of having to cut off the flow

00:00:45.760 of information to avoid being strong armed by the government and by the legacy media outlets.

00:00:51.400 Chris Sims is normally with us on Mondays, but we had a bit of a day off for Thanksgiving. So she's

00:00:56.500 with us now. Chris, obviously a horrific context for this, but whenever a crisis happens, it brings

00:01:03.020 around, I think, exactly why C18 has been such a dangerous piece of legislation.

00:01:09.400 Exactly, Andrew. You and I have spent enough time in newsrooms, both legacy media and our current,

00:01:16.060 whatever our new media is that we're talking on right now, to understand that the government

00:01:21.240 shouldn't be screwing this up. And they're at risk of screwing it up even more. And C18, as you point

00:01:29.560 out, we already see its effects with Facebook. So people can't, you know, share news links. They can't

00:01:37.480 comment on the non-existent news links and therefore share more information with each other. They then

00:01:42.540 can't basically gather and grow and, you know, commune with each other and share, share this

00:01:47.880 information. And in more Canadian Taxpayers Federation contexts than normal times, that would

00:01:53.600 usually mean something like about the carbon tax or being able to recall a politician who was, you

00:01:59.120 know, not keeping up their end of the bargain. But in this current context, it really puts into

00:02:04.080 perspective how important it is to be able to have access to information and news media that you

00:02:09.560 need. Now, Google is saying, yeah, you know what, we're probably going to side with Facebook here and

00:02:17.120 we're going to do the same thing. So we have a deadline. I think it's December 19th. Okay. It's

00:02:22.760 coming up very quickly with them saying, we're not going to have links, news links to news stories

00:02:30.800 posted on Google anymore. I'm curious, Google owns YouTube. Like, does that mean that there won't be

00:02:39.680 any more news links on YouTube? Like, that is how a lot of people, especially for my daughter's

00:02:46.360 generation and a little bit older, that's their understanding of screen time. Like, they don't have

00:02:52.440 cable. They didn't grow up with bunny ears the way I did. They don't get any other form of information

00:02:59.240 superhighway. That's their superhighway. What happens then? And so this is why we're saying

00:03:04.400 the government needs to back right off of this C-18 because now it is directly affecting Canadians'

00:03:11.920 access to information. And I would just say on the Google thing, I mean, one of the points that I

00:03:17.120 stress to people of all political persuasions is to never trust one particular source. I mean, I am

00:03:23.560 very proud of the work that I do and I stand by it and I love that people trust me and come to True

00:03:27.780 North for their news. But I say you should verify anything and everything, even the best meaning

00:03:31.880 people get it wrong. Just to give one very pertinent example of this, at the beginning of the show,

00:03:36.440 when I wanted to get the latest death toll, I went to Google and I said, Israel-Gaza death toll,

00:03:42.300 and I got four or five articles and I checked every single one of them to find the number. And there

00:03:47.060 were distinctions between there based on the age of the story. So if Google were to take away those

00:03:53.280 links, I would have to go to an individual site. I could go to the New York Times or BBC or Al Jazeera,

00:03:59.320 True North, CNN. I could do that, sure. But I lose that ability to get that cross-section,

00:04:05.740 which is exactly what the internet has been great for. And you move this to a Twitter context. Now,

00:04:12.100 for the most part, X, as it's now called, has kind of managed to fly under the radar

00:04:17.160 of the C-18 discussions, but it's not exactly clear that they'll get a pass on this.

00:04:22.580 No, it's not clear they're going to get a pass on that. And remember what feels now like a million

00:04:27.860 years ago, like last Tuesday, when C-11 was really stomping all over us when it comes to things

00:04:35.320 like podcasts and online shows. We need to stress that this isn't just podcasts. This is online

00:04:42.420 shows. And does Twitter slash X now qualify under that? Well, why wouldn't it? So their spaces are

00:04:50.580 live. It's interactive. People are constantly getting interviewed on them. In some cases, it's

00:04:55.740 hundreds of thousands of people listening. They have web videos on there all the time. They have

00:05:02.080 audio on there all the time. That's content. That is content, according to what everything I've

00:05:08.240 ever read under CRTC definitions. So then what happens? And to rewind, if people are missing what

00:05:14.320 I'm saying here, remember back when C-11 was passed, folks like you and me and Andrew and like lots of

00:05:21.400 folks, you know, not lots, some folks on the left in other podcast spaces were also warning about it

00:05:26.460 as well, that C-11 would alter Canadians' ability to choose what they want to see, hear and share

00:05:33.600 online. Now it was floated as part of Canadian culture, Canadian heritage. The CRTC is just going

00:05:40.860 to make sure that you see enough of CBC gem promoted and enough moose meat recipes and ice hockey scores

00:05:48.380 and all that great Canadian stuff. But the insidious and troubling part of this is that once you give

00:05:54.780 the government the chance to regulate and downgrade what's visible to you, you've given them the ability

00:06:01.720 to make things invisible to you. And so that means that Canadians, no matter where they're coming from 1.00

00:06:07.560 on the political spectrum, will have a limited amount of news. Now there's two regulations that have

00:06:14.280 been released last week. The CRTC said, you know what, any online body, to paraphrase, that hosts

00:06:21.820 podcasts or programming or content now must register with the Trudeau government, the CRTC. Why? Because

00:06:30.060 they're going to regulate them. The risk here, Andrew, is that why would big tech do this? In the same way

00:06:38.240 that Meta said, no thanks to C18 and now we can't see news on Facebook. Why? What's in it for these

00:06:44.480 big companies with the fractional Canadian audience by comparison? What's in it for them to put up with

00:06:50.420 this headache with the Canadian government? It's very likely that they could just say, you know what,

00:06:54.260 we're switching that part off and then we'll be in the dark. Yes. And I would also point out, I mean,

00:06:59.320 when you discuss, Chris, and I think it's a very valid point that I hadn't really gotten around to

00:07:04.160 thinking of in this particular context of promoting Canadian content. Well, we're talking about an

00:07:09.300 international crisis that's happening right now here. I would say the highest value content in

00:07:14.540 terms of understanding what's happening on the ground is going to be content that's produced

00:07:17.740 closest to the source. When you log into YouTube, it's going to give you the CBC version, the CTV

00:07:22.720 version, the global version. And that's not to say those outlets don't have stringers that they're

00:07:26.600 using and reports from there, but it's a bias against everywhere else in the world that is being

00:07:32.320 baked into the system, which is not the way the news is supposed to be. No. And that's not the way

00:07:38.400 that the internet has been for since it started. It's always been, um, in addition to and other than,

00:07:46.840 so it's always been the ability to go straight to the source and watch something live literally from

00:07:52.580 somebody's phone. Now that you can just watch it happen. And so that has always been kind of the

00:07:58.200 great equalizer. And again, to your point, by all means, watch legacy media, read legacy newspapers,

00:08:04.800 watch alternative stuff, make up your own mind. The point here is now you're going to have the

00:08:10.360 less and less and less ability to be able to check the internet and see what the news is and read what

00:08:17.780 these alternative news sites are saying and watch these videos, maybe right from the place that it's

00:08:23.100 happening and make up your own mind and choose. And so this is where, you know, to try to put a

00:08:28.760 smile on people's faces. That's what former president Reagan meant when he said, I'm from the government

00:08:34.720 and I'm here to help, you know, no scarier words, you know, this balance of alternative or independent

00:08:41.340 online news media and legacy media and legacy media's ability to share links on the internet

00:08:49.120 and get its broadcast message out there. That was working fine. That was working fine. It didn't

00:08:56.400 need the Trudeau government to come in there and fix and help and do stuff, but it has. It's neck deep

00:09:03.360 in it now. It's making a terrible mess of it. And they have got to realize this. They have got to stop

00:09:09.920 and realize, whoa, we're doing way more harm than good here. We are limiting people's ability to get

00:09:15.400 information. Sorry, we're backing off. That's what they need to do. Yes. And I want to just speak on

00:09:22.420 behalf of an independent outlet here, which is True North in my context. And I think we've had in the

00:09:27.000 last few years, a level of growth we're very grateful for, but we're still a small outlet that's

00:09:31.740 unknown to a lot of people in Canada. What we rely on as an organization is for one of our stories or

00:09:37.620 one of our shows to go viral and people start sharing it. So it attracts new eyes, people that

00:09:43.020 wouldn't necessarily go to www.tncnews in the morning to check out what's happening in the

00:09:48.220 world that learn of us that way. And that's what this has killed. It's killed that organic growth.

00:09:53.960 No, they haven't taken us offline. They haven't banned us from being accessed just yet.

00:09:58.580 But what they have done is they've limited the organic growth and they've limited the organic

00:10:03.200 growth of videos that you might do at the CTF. And they've limited the organic growth of outlets

00:10:08.200 out there that are independent in nature that I've never heard of. Because CBC, CTV, the Globe and

00:10:12.860 Mail, the Toronto Star, they have enough, I mean, street cred to, for lack of a better term,

00:10:19.080 they have enough name recognition that there are people that if you just tell them to go to a news

00:10:23.180 website, they're probably going to remember one of those and go to it. We don't necessarily have

00:10:28.480 that to the masses.

00:10:29.380 They're established. That's why they're the establishment. And that's why this is alternative

00:10:36.620 and it's growing and it's new. So exactly to your point, Andrew, like that impulse you have,

00:10:43.500 say you're talking to a normie friend of yours who's part of your family.

00:10:48.600 I don't have many normies or friends, but carry on.

00:10:51.400 Many of them have bailed on me as well too. So, but say one had one and say one we're talking

00:10:58.300 about it over Thanksgiving dinner. That's where you can, that's that sort of impulse of that share,

00:11:04.620 share, share that sense of sharing on Facebook, sharing on X, sharing on the internet, being able

00:11:12.900 to share that information and that article with your friends and family and old former colleagues

00:11:18.480 and maybe high school people that you've been in touch with. Like that's the whole point. That is

00:11:23.200 the whole point of sharing information. And now our access to information is getting tighter and

00:11:27.960 tighter and tighter and there's no good reason for it. Like I need to stress because sometimes people

00:11:33.100 just coming into the middle of conversation might wonder like, what kind of stuff are you guys

00:11:36.640 wanting to be watching on the internet? Like, what are you afraid of? No, we're not talking about

00:11:42.040 heinous criminal things, like terrible things that people want to be sharing on the internet that

00:11:47.960 are against the criminal code. Okay. Those things are already illegal. Andrew, if you and I started

00:11:53.220 promoting that garbage right now between the two of us, we could be criminally charged in Canada. 0.99

00:11:57.960 For doing such things. That is part of the criminal code. That is not what C-11 is about. 0.98

00:12:04.100 C-11 is about Canadian heritage. It is about content. It is about culture. Okay. And that is the risk

00:12:13.040 here because they're trying to squeeze and stifle that. Okay. And that is what is squeezing your access

00:12:20.180 to information here. And then we have something like C-18. So it's like this two-headed monster.

00:12:26.440 We have C-18, which is now literally blocking our ability to see and share news on one of the biggest

00:12:35.100 social media platforms in Canada. I think the last stat I saw, something like 20 million Canadians

00:12:40.680 have a Facebook account. That's enormous. And now they can't see news on it. And now Google just announced,

00:12:47.420 you know what, we're not playing this game either. We're going to take our ball and go home.

00:12:52.040 Folks, you need to contact your MP. I know there's a lot going on right now, but you need to tell your MP,

00:12:57.260 hey, my access to news and information is a voting issue for me. You guys got to get this all repealed.

00:13:03.800 Chris Sims from the Canadian Taxpayers Federation. Always a pleasure. Thanks so much for coming on today.

00:13:08.860 Thanks, Andrew.

00:13:09.700 Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show. Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.

Juno News - October 14, 2023

Google vows to ban news in Canada (ft. Kris Sims)

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