Juno News - Government asks church to ＂voluntarily＂ close to curb COVID-19

00:00:00.000 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:00:09.640 We've talked on the show in the past about how Elmer, Ontario,

00:00:13.180 the small town in southwestern Ontario,

00:00:15.700 has become this hotbed in the fight for freedom,

00:00:19.600 where overzealous bureaucrats, public health officials,

00:00:23.360 municipal officers are butting up against an increasingly large group of protesters

00:00:27.720 that are criticizing masks, criticizing lockdown,

00:00:31.360 and the government has had a very precarious relationship

00:00:35.400 with respecting free speech in this regard.

00:00:38.100 And a lot of it has come down to one very notable example

00:00:42.440 early in the lockdown, back in April,

00:00:44.340 when a drive-in church service became the target of the Elmer police,

00:00:49.720 who eventually backed off, and it actually led to the whole episode,

00:00:53.360 the government specifically saying drive-in services are fine.

00:00:56.240 But the church in question was the Church of God in Elmer,

00:00:59.540 led by Pastor Henry Hildebrand,

00:01:01.800 who's become very vocal on religious freedom and also resisting lockdown.

00:01:07.360 And most notably this past week,

00:01:10.240 Pastor Hildebrand received a letter from Southwestern Public Health,

00:01:14.000 which is the local public health unit,

00:01:16.320 requesting that he shut down the church for 28 days on a voluntary basis.

00:01:22.380 Now, as you might be able to expect, his answer has been no,

00:01:25.360 but I still want to talk about this letter.

00:01:27.260 Pastor Hildebrand joins me on the line now.

00:01:29.800 Pastor, good to talk to you again.

00:01:31.000 Thanks for coming on today.

00:01:32.320 Andrew, good to have me again.

00:01:33.940 You've been talking for months now about these issues,

00:01:37.500 and I know a lot of people are very grateful.

00:01:39.360 I know you've had quite an international following buildup

00:01:42.420 around your commentary on this.

00:01:44.800 Tell me what your feeling was when you got this letter

00:01:48.720 from the Southwestern Public Health.

00:01:50.960 I was quite surprised.

00:01:54.260 It arrived in my email inbox on the 17th,

00:01:58.480 and then I looked at the letter,

00:02:00.520 and it said this is effective as of the 17th,

00:02:03.440 which seemed rather strange that you get the letter

00:02:07.340 and it's effective right away.

00:02:09.640 I assumed at that point,

00:02:11.460 I assumed that every pastor in our area received it.

00:02:16.280 Of course, it was addressed to me,

00:02:18.120 but I figured that everyone else would have gotten a similar letter,

00:02:22.060 only to find out later on to this point,

00:02:25.000 all I can find out is I'm the only one that received it.

00:02:27.840 So I was surprised.

00:02:29.840 It seemed rather strange.

00:02:33.280 I just want to read a section of this letter to those tuning in.

00:02:37.140 Southwestern Public Health is recommending that your church,

00:02:40.220 along with others where we are seeing an increased risk

00:02:42.820 in exposure to COVID-19 voluntarily cease in-person church services

00:02:47.900 and all in-person gatherings for 28 days,

00:02:51.240 beginning, as you note, November 17th.

00:02:53.920 It says later on,

00:02:54.980 the purpose of this closure is to prevent the gathering

00:02:57.520 of your church members with people outside their own household

00:03:00.420 to protect them from being exposed to COVID-19.

00:03:03.980 This will help to prevent the further spread of COVID-19

00:03:06.680 within the broader community

00:03:08.280 and help protect those who are the most vulnerable to severe illness.

00:03:11.940 Has there ever been, to your knowledge,

00:03:14.700 a case of COVID-19 within your church?

00:03:17.280 Because when they say communities where there's a high risk,

00:03:20.120 they're saying that your church is a high risk for COVID-19.

00:03:23.620 There has been none, none at all, Andrew.

00:03:27.480 So what is the justification that you think they're using?

00:03:34.320 It's a really tough one.

00:03:35.880 I just do not know because we have,

00:03:38.980 so there's been five deaths altogether in Elgin, Oxford, all year.

00:03:44.600 Five deaths.

00:03:45.200 And of course, every death is tragic.

00:03:47.000 But there's been five deaths.

00:03:49.360 Like we were just saying,

00:03:50.700 there's no cases in Elmer or Melahide connected to our church.

00:03:56.180 I just do not know what the justification is.

00:03:59.160 I read the letter again and again.

00:04:01.100 I do not know.

00:04:02.500 And of course, there's no facts attached to the letter.

00:04:06.320 The word pandemic is not in there in the letter.

00:04:08.840 I don't know what the,

00:04:10.760 what was the urge or what was,

00:04:13.040 what's behind the letter.

00:04:15.240 I reached out to the public health agency

00:04:18.180 and they said that several churches,

00:04:20.460 they didn't give a list,

00:04:21.320 but they said several churches received this.

00:04:23.400 And they said that attending church

00:04:24.760 where there may be singing,

00:04:25.920 talking and long periods of sitting or standing

00:04:28.320 in close proximity are higher risk situations

00:04:31.320 for the spread of COVID-19.

00:04:33.000 The issue that I have with this

00:04:34.680 is that we have now had eight months

00:04:36.900 to adapt practices to make things a bit safer,

00:04:40.680 not just in church,

00:04:41.660 but in grocery stores and in all institutions.

00:04:44.720 And it seems like we've had a fair bit of success in that.

00:04:48.140 So I don't understand

00:04:49.000 when the provincial government's advice

00:04:50.980 is that churches can open safely,

00:04:53.140 why a local health agency

00:04:54.800 is trying to get you to shut down for a month.

00:04:57.060 That's the thing, Andrew,

00:04:58.580 is there's been no,

00:05:00.500 nothing coming from the premier.

00:05:03.480 There's no law in place right now

00:05:05.420 to shut down churches at all.

00:05:08.400 We as our church here,

00:05:10.100 we are very, very careful

00:05:11.900 when it comes to things,

00:05:13.020 not just now with the COVID-19,

00:05:16.120 but whether it was whooping cough

00:05:18.060 or whatever could have come up in the past,

00:05:20.820 we have always been

00:05:21.940 and are now very, very careful

00:05:24.500 so as not to prevent

00:05:27.280 or not to spread anything.

00:05:30.640 So I don't understand.

00:05:33.640 And like I said,

00:05:34.080 I have not heard of other churches.

00:05:36.280 We did check.

00:05:37.380 We have not yet found who else got it.

00:05:39.760 And once we find them,

00:05:40.800 we will know.

00:05:41.360 But at this point,

00:05:42.500 all I know is that I have the letter.

00:05:45.200 When I see a request like this,

00:05:47.220 I see it as a violation of religious freedom.

00:05:49.900 Telling a church even voluntarily to shut down

00:05:53.120 is something that you would never see done

00:05:55.040 to my, in my view anyway,

00:05:57.020 to other religious groups.

00:05:58.360 You'd never see a business told,

00:06:00.560 hey, I think you don't have to,

00:06:02.140 but it would be nice if you closed down for a month.

00:06:04.400 I've had people that have responded to me

00:06:06.640 since I first wrote about this yesterday

00:06:08.260 saying, well, it's just a request.

00:06:10.260 It's just a question.

00:06:11.760 There's no obligation.

00:06:13.360 What's your response to that?

00:06:15.560 Andrew, the longer I think about this,

00:06:18.660 this letter, this stranger,

00:06:20.440 it seems to me what happened here

00:06:22.900 because the wording,

00:06:24.820 the wording is,

00:06:26.580 okay, so first of all,

00:06:27.800 I'll say,

00:06:28.300 I would say the letter was respectfully written.

00:06:30.900 Okay.

00:06:31.500 But look at the,

00:06:32.780 Andrew, look at the content.

00:06:34.380 It's saying disclosure is to prevent church members.

00:06:38.720 So a pastor is asked

00:06:40.780 if he would voluntarily do something

00:06:43.440 to prevent the church members from gathering.

00:06:46.340 It's, it's at its best,

00:06:49.300 very, very strange and very wrong.

00:06:53.120 It's just, the whole approach is,

00:06:55.480 is, is not appropriate.

00:06:57.260 I find it very offensive.

00:07:00.460 And again, I've made this point to people.

00:07:03.040 If the government is telling you to do something,

00:07:05.380 even if it's quote unquote,

00:07:06.900 just a request,

00:07:07.780 there is an inherent coercive effect to that.

00:07:10.540 The state is telling you not to worship.

00:07:12.480 The state is telling you,

00:07:13.460 your church should close its doors.

00:07:15.920 Right, exactly.

00:07:16.920 And which is not the case here,

00:07:19.320 not the case here.

00:07:20.080 It's a local health unit

00:07:22.340 saying that based on what they feel

00:07:25.600 or what they think is,

00:07:28.100 and they're not referring to deaths,

00:07:29.740 they're not referring to an emergency

00:07:31.340 because there is none.

00:07:33.600 What, what is,

00:07:35.140 I called them yesterday,

00:07:36.680 left them a message.

00:07:37.460 They haven't returned my call yet.

00:07:38.720 But I, my, my only question I have is,

00:07:42.300 what was behind this?

00:07:44.420 Just, just tell me what,

00:07:46.020 what's your burden?

00:07:46.900 What, what, what are you referring to?

00:07:49.740 Yeah, and the one,

00:07:50.620 and you, you pointed this out

00:07:51.640 when you spoke at your church on,

00:07:53.400 I believe it was Thursday evening.

00:07:55.060 They say that you can continue

00:07:56.640 to have drive-in religious gatherings

00:07:58.480 and they quote,

00:07:59.840 discourage the idling of engines, unquote.

00:08:02.940 Now, when I was attending my church

00:08:05.320 in, in drive-in form earlier this summer,

00:08:07.840 it was not too, too bad.

00:08:09.720 You could roll down the windows.

00:08:11.180 You've got people that in Elmer

00:08:13.340 have horse and buggy

00:08:14.620 that have no heaters.

00:08:15.840 You've got people in cars in December

00:08:19.320 as the weather is getting

00:08:20.300 a little bit cooler.

00:08:21.260 The idea of sitting in your car

00:08:23.140 in December in Southern Ontario

00:08:24.920 without idling an engine

00:08:26.200 is not exactly a viable alternative

00:08:29.800 to worshiping.

00:08:31.240 Andrew, that's why I told them straight out,

00:08:33.140 as you heard me say on Wednesday night,

00:08:34.780 absolutely have your engines idling

00:08:38.160 because I don't want no little ones 0.94

00:08:41.040 to be cold in there

00:08:42.280 and the mothers and everyone else. 0.62

00:08:45.060 So I just found it rather humorous

00:08:48.320 that in the letter,

00:08:49.720 at the end of the letter,

00:08:51.460 they're suggesting to me

00:08:52.920 that we could have,

00:08:54.600 continue having drive-in services.

00:08:56.260 I have heard of drive-in services before.

00:08:58.600 You know, Andrew,

00:08:59.620 they did come up earlier this year.

00:09:01.560 So I am familiar with drive-in services.

00:09:03.520 As you know,

00:09:05.440 so I thought that's rather humorous

00:09:07.500 that at the end of the letter,

00:09:08.740 they have to introduce me

00:09:10.680 to drive-in services

00:09:11.880 and tell me how to have them.

00:09:15.280 We are quite familiar

00:09:17.280 with drive-in services.

00:09:18.660 We have done them

00:09:19.120 for the past eight months.

00:09:20.460 And I do not need a local health unit

00:09:22.540 to tell me that that is allowed.

00:09:24.520 I fought for it.

00:09:25.540 We won the case.

00:09:26.800 The premier changed the law

00:09:28.020 in Ontario in our favor.

00:09:29.720 So I am familiar

00:09:31.180 with drive-in services.

00:09:33.000 I know you said

00:09:33.960 you haven't actually spoken

00:09:35.180 to the health unit

00:09:36.340 since getting this letter,

00:09:37.580 but I have to ask you, Pastor,

00:09:39.220 where do you go from here?

00:09:40.400 Because I know that

00:09:41.600 with what you're saying

00:09:42.580 about not being able

00:09:43.500 to identify any other churches

00:09:45.440 that have received this letter

00:09:46.640 and with in general,

00:09:47.780 I'd say how you and your church

00:09:49.660 have been treated

00:09:50.200 by various levels of government

00:09:52.680 going back to April now.

00:09:55.000 Where do you go

00:09:56.020 when you get something like this?

00:09:57.480 What's your path forward?

00:09:59.040 So first of all,

00:09:59.740 I would like to know,

00:10:00.820 is this intimidation?

00:10:02.580 Is this an attempt

00:10:03.320 to intimidate us?

00:10:04.920 If it was, it failed.

00:10:07.180 It doesn't intimidate us at all.

00:10:09.700 We are going forward

00:10:11.040 as we have until now.

00:10:13.500 There has been no,

00:10:14.520 nothing issued

00:10:16.080 for this area

00:10:17.200 that churches need to close.

00:10:19.360 So nothing changes.

00:10:22.220 And until they return my call

00:10:24.020 and explain to me

00:10:24.980 what the issue is here,

00:10:27.920 nothing changes.

00:10:29.180 We're going on as we have.

00:10:31.880 And that was actually

00:10:33.020 an interesting point

00:10:33.940 that you just reminded me of.

00:10:35.520 The letter says

00:10:36.180 that someone will follow up with you

00:10:37.800 and you indicated

00:10:38.500 that sure enough,

00:10:39.240 you had received,

00:10:40.060 I think it was a voicemail

00:10:41.100 from someone

00:10:41.720 from the health unit.

00:10:42.980 That's right.

00:10:43.460 They had left a message

00:10:44.440 at our church phone.

00:10:45.840 So then I returned that call

00:10:47.480 yesterday morning

00:10:48.300 from my home phone

00:10:49.240 and left them my number

00:10:50.540 so that they could reach me,

00:10:51.580 but I have not heard

00:10:52.440 from them yet.

00:10:53.120 So until I hear from them,

00:10:56.600 like I said,

00:10:57.160 my main thing is

00:10:57.960 I have no questions.

00:10:59.100 There's nothing

00:10:59.660 that needs to be explained

00:11:00.700 because there is nothing

00:11:02.160 that is going on right now.

00:11:03.660 But what I want to know

00:11:04.600 from them is

00:11:05.320 please tell me

00:11:06.880 what is the motive

00:11:08.100 of this letter

00:11:08.860 just so there is no,

00:11:10.920 so we understand what it is.

00:11:13.840 And I guess I would ask you then,

00:11:15.480 what would it mean

00:11:16.120 if they were to kind of

00:11:17.580 provide you a list

00:11:18.560 of all the other churches

00:11:19.560 that received it?

00:11:20.380 If they said,

00:11:21.200 well, it wasn't just you,

00:11:22.200 it was all of these places,

00:11:23.400 would that change

00:11:24.420 your concerns

00:11:26.140 with the letter?

00:11:27.160 So if they tell me

00:11:28.280 that the others got it as well,

00:11:30.160 that definitely changes,

00:11:31.760 then it doesn't seem

00:11:32.800 like a personal attack

00:11:34.540 or a personal attempt

00:11:36.280 to intimidate.

00:11:37.320 That would definitely

00:11:38.240 change that part of it.

00:11:41.120 Because I will say,

00:11:42.380 and again,

00:11:42.600 I don't have a list.

00:11:43.580 The health agency says

00:11:45.360 that several churches got it.

00:11:47.180 Now, from my perspective,

00:11:48.680 that doesn't really change

00:11:50.640 all that much

00:11:51.420 because I feel that

00:11:52.320 we have to go

00:11:52.960 with the evidence on this.

00:11:54.220 And this is a point

00:11:55.160 that you raised earlier.

00:11:55.980 If there's a church

00:11:56.920 that's causing problems,

00:11:58.120 a church that's causing 0.51

00:11:59.160 some sort of an outbreak,

00:12:00.540 then deal with that.

00:12:01.320 But my issue here

00:12:02.800 is that we already

00:12:03.460 have guidelines.

00:12:04.540 There are already restrictions

00:12:05.420 on how churches

00:12:06.480 can operate

00:12:07.300 that are meant

00:12:08.220 to make sure

00:12:08.840 they aren't places

00:12:09.740 where COVID-19

00:12:10.640 is being transmitted.

00:12:11.980 So I don't know

00:12:12.760 why a shutdown

00:12:13.480 is necessary.

00:12:14.420 Yes, and from that perspective,

00:12:17.080 nothing would change.

00:12:18.160 Even if they said

00:12:18.840 other churches

00:12:19.420 had gotten the latter,

00:12:20.840 nothing would change that way

00:12:22.280 because there is no outbreak.

00:12:25.060 There's nothing happening.

00:12:26.420 And I don't appreciate

00:12:27.880 that Elmer is put

00:12:29.780 into that light

00:12:31.540 that it comes across

00:12:33.660 as what all is going on here

00:12:36.260 when we're not aware

00:12:37.360 of anything that's going on.

00:12:39.540 That's actually

00:12:40.420 very important, Pastor,

00:12:41.660 because there are

00:12:42.140 a lot of people

00:12:43.020 across the country

00:12:44.320 that had never heard

00:12:45.180 of Elmer before now.

00:12:47.180 And I literally,

00:12:48.320 I get emails from people

00:12:49.320 in British Columbia

00:12:50.080 and Alberta

00:12:50.620 that are asking me

00:12:51.420 about Elmer

00:12:51.840 because they know

00:12:52.500 it's not far from me

00:12:53.700 in London.

00:12:54.220 And this is how

00:12:54.880 they're learning

00:12:55.320 about the community,

00:12:56.140 going back to when

00:12:56.920 police were filming

00:12:58.220 your drive-in services

00:12:59.380 in, I think it was April,

00:13:01.260 to when we had

00:13:02.260 the government going

00:13:02.980 after the anti-lockdown protests.

00:13:05.400 And this is how

00:13:06.440 your community

00:13:07.080 is now being showcased

00:13:08.340 to a lot of people.

00:13:09.520 And Andrew,

00:13:09.880 that's the thing.

00:13:10.620 If we'd go back

00:13:11.520 eight months,

00:13:12.260 back to the spring,

00:13:13.380 people accuse me

00:13:15.820 and they say,

00:13:16.500 well, why are you

00:13:17.520 putting Elmer

00:13:18.080 in the spotlight?

00:13:19.360 Let me remind everyone

00:13:20.660 that it's not me

00:13:21.780 doing it

00:13:22.240 because we were

00:13:23.320 doing our things

00:13:24.320 in the driving service

00:13:26.740 earlier this year

00:13:27.560 and the police came by

00:13:28.580 and they said,

00:13:29.240 thumbs up,

00:13:29.880 all looks good.

00:13:31.240 Then they rocked the boat

00:13:32.920 and now we're

00:13:34.500 same situation again.

00:13:35.980 So we're doing

00:13:36.780 what we're supposed

00:13:37.320 to be doing

00:13:37.940 and I get this letter

00:13:40.200 based on what?

00:13:42.680 So

00:13:42.900 then I have

00:13:46.240 a response letter

00:13:47.640 and let everybody know

00:13:49.280 because we have a lot,

00:13:50.740 a lot of followers,

00:13:51.880 not just here in Elmer.

00:13:52.980 There's thousands of people

00:13:53.960 following us worldwide.

00:13:55.380 So they want to know

00:13:56.480 what is going on.

00:13:57.520 So I have to post a letter.

00:13:58.980 I don't know why

00:13:59.760 the letter was written.

00:14:01.360 I guess they felt

00:14:02.900 it was good enough

00:14:03.880 just to write a letter

00:14:04.660 instead of making a phone call

00:14:05.800 and saying,

00:14:06.340 Pastor,

00:14:07.240 we are singling you out

00:14:08.760 or we're not.

00:14:09.840 Just tell me what you're doing

00:14:11.340 so that we can go on from here.

00:14:13.880 But there seems to be

00:14:14.980 very, very little effort

00:14:16.880 put into communicating

00:14:18.140 from any level

00:14:19.580 of people out there

00:14:21.160 just taking it for granted

00:14:23.220 that we will get an email

00:14:24.520 and that I as the pastor

00:14:26.540 would then proceed

00:14:27.380 to shut the church down

00:14:29.380 and prevent the people

00:14:30.960 from gathering.

00:14:32.100 That's not the case.

00:14:34.420 So lest there be

00:14:35.460 any doubt at all,

00:14:36.480 the answer to the question

00:14:37.480 of will you shut down

00:14:38.280 is a resounding no.

00:14:39.720 It's a resounding no.

00:14:42.300 There's no way

00:14:43.180 that a pastor

00:14:43.940 would volunteer

00:14:44.740 to say,

00:14:46.000 I will go ahead.

00:14:47.020 I was invited to do this.

00:14:48.520 I will go ahead

00:14:49.240 and shut the church doors

00:14:50.560 so that the members

00:14:51.580 cannot meet.

00:14:52.300 That would be very wrong.

00:14:55.520 All right.

00:14:56.140 Well, thank you very much

00:14:57.020 and God bless you,

00:14:58.000 Pastor Henry Hildebrandt

00:14:59.040 of The Church of God.

00:14:59.980 Thank you.

00:15:00.600 Thank you, Andrew,

00:15:01.280 for having me again.

00:15:02.540 Thanks for listening

00:15:03.180 to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:15:04.620 Support the program

00:15:05.420 by donating to True North

00:15:06.660 at www.tnc.news.

Juno News - November 21, 2020

Government asks church to ＂voluntarily＂ close to curb COVID-19

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