Juno News - September 20, 2023Has Trudeau politicized Canada’s relationship with India？ (Ft. Abhijit Iyer-Mitra)
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Summary
In the wake of the killing of Hardeep Singh Nijar, India has accused Canada of colluding with the Sikh extremist group Khalistani to carry out the attack. India has expelled a senior Canadian diplomat, and Canada has warned its citizens not to travel to India. To make sense of all of this, my friend Abhijit Ayur Mitra, a security and foreign policy expert based in New Delhi, and a senior fellow at the Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies, joins me to talk about the ongoing diplomatic saga between India and Canada.
Transcript
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Hi there, everyone, and welcome to the Rupa Subramanya show.
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Today, I'm here to bring you the latest developments in a rapidly unfolding diplomatic saga that
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has sent shockwaves through the international community.
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It all began with the killing of Khalistani Sikh activist Hardeep Singh Nijar, a case
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that has ignited tensions between the world's largest democracy, India, and Canada.
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Nijar was a prominent Sikh Khalistani activist.
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He was gunned down by massed assailants on a bike in Surrey, British Columbia, back in
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Now, Khalistan, for those of you who don't know what Khalistan means, it refers to a
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homeland for the Sikhs in the state of Punjab in India.
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They would like this homeland to separate from India.
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There was an active terrorist insurgency in the 1970s and 80s in India, which culminated
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in the assassination of then Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi by two of her Sikh bodyguards
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The following year, an Air India jet was blown up in midair by a bomb planted by Khalistani
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It remains the worst act of terrorism in Canadian history.
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Now, on Monday, just a few days ago, on the opening day of Parliament, Prime Minister Justin
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Trudeau makes an explosive speech in which he alleges that agents working for the Indian
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government were responsible for the killing of Nijar.
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Shortly afterwards, Foreign Minister Melanie Jolie expelled a senior Indian diplomat.
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Now, the Justin Trudeau government is yet to provide any proof or evidence to back up these
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India's reaction has been very swift and uncompromising.
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In retaliation, the Indian government expelled a senior Canadian diplomat and dismissed the
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On Tuesday, Canada's Department of Global Affairs issued a travel advisory to Canadians not
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On Wednesday, India retaliated with its own travel advisory, warning Indian students and
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visitors that their safety may be at risk in Canada.
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The Canada-India bilateral relationship, which I've been tracking for many years, was already
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on the brink, especially under the Trudeau government.
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It is now spiraling downward, ever downward, in a way never seen before.
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Now, at the time of recording this, my sources in India suggest that India's Ministry of External
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Affairs is getting ready to cancel the visas and overseas citizenship cards of Indo-Canadians
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whom they believe are linked to the Khalistan movement.
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If that happens, we can probably expect some retaliation from Canada, making it harder for
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To make sense of all of this is my friend, Abhijit Ayur Mitra.
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He is a security and foreign policy expert based in New Delhi and a senior fellow at the Institute
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of Peace and Conflict Studies, also based in New Delhi.
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He has commented quite extensively on this ongoing diplomatic saga between India and Canada,
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and it's my great pleasure to welcome to the Rupa Subramanir show.
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It's always great to catch up with you and finally get to see your face after years.
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So what did you make of Justin Trudeau's explosive speech in Parliament in the House of Commons
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on the opening day of the fall session, accusing agents of India as being responsible for the
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targeted killing of Khalistani activist Hardeep Singh Nijjar?
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Look, it just smacked off politics from day one, because this is not how friends behave
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We need to remember when I say Khalistani, I'm just talking about the sort of elite subsection
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of the community, which have this almost vice-like feudal grip through terror of the community.
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I myself have suffered from this in Melbourne when I lived there.
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You know, being a Tamilian, I had to hide my Tamil identity in the last phases of the
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Sri Lankan civil war because, you know, there was a whole sort of elite capture of the Tamil
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diaspora out there, which used to extort money from the community.
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So what's happened is I think Justin's given into that, and I'll tell you why.
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See, in a normal first world country, as I understand it, a country with the rule of law,
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the way things proceed is you have an investigation, you get to where the leads no longer are traceable
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With proof, you approach through intelligence sharing your friends and the country where you
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Usually, the country where the crime trail leads to then collaborates with you, failing which
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you ask your friends to pressurize that country.
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In this case, it was the five eyes, you know, New Zealand, Australia, the UK, and the US.
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Now, it turns out that he has gone and spoken to the other five eyes, they have agreed to
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intervene, which is, you know, basically, act as a courier, nothing more, and say, you know,
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Now, as I understand from my sources in New Delhi, they're like, intervene on what?
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You've given us no leads except to say, oh, you might be involved in it.
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Tell us who came, who are you accusing, which flight did he come with, and we'll trace him
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Apparently, his entire tirade with Modi at the sidelines of the G20 summit was all generics,
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Now, assume India and Canada do not have the level of strategic trust for intel sharing.
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We both have extremely robust intel sharing with the Americans, which is meant to be utilized
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precisely at a time like this when there is no mutual trust, but there is mutual trust
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with America to do that intel sharing for that intel to have been given.
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Every single thing I've heard in Delhi was it was generic requests to help, which India
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was not predisposed to do because India has anyway given very specific inputs about terrorism
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Now, I mentioned this very carefully because you have to interrogate me about this later when
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It is a whole load of criminal activity which the Indian government describes as terrorism
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because remember, there is no Khalistan movement at the moment.
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There is a whole lot of organized crime happening in Punjab in the name of Khalistan, but there
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is no Khalistani terrorism or secession happening at the moment.
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The, you know, the Khalistan bit, the secession, the creation of a state is all kind of post facto
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hitched onto it to make crime seem respectable, right?
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And that's my reading of the situation that Justin Trudeau and his intelligence operatives
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They specifically did not want to share or even possibly have specifics to share with India.
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They did not want the reciprocal agreement of exporting crime gangs, which is what you
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see has happened with the so-called Khalistan movement in Canada, essentially a criminal
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enterprise, back to India in spite of very specific requests.
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And he thought that America, UK, Australia will all go along with it, which they did not.
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They just conveyed the message and that was it.
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So, I mean, you make an interesting distinction between terrorism and criminal related activities.
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I was under the impression that Hardeeb Singh Nijjar was actually wanted on terror related
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So Nijjar, we need to separate the Khalistan movement from Nijjar, because remember, what
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happens is, you tell me one terror movement, I think True North and you study this a lot
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in Canada, you could tell me maybe if it's different in Canada, but there isn't a single
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terror movement we know that does not have intrinsic and deep links with organized crime, because
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you know, the fundraising for these movements has to be through extortion, drugs, basically
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systemic corruption or corrosion of the system, where, you know, systemic inefficiencies are
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Now, mostly that's what it is, because remember, if you're generating funds out there, where exactly
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Because you haven't seen a big bomb blast in Punjab, or a major killing in Punjab in the
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So you even look at the bomb blast that Nijjar is wanted for.
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That's a pure terror activity, but he's also wanted for a lot of criminal, associated criminal
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The terror activity is something he went in 2013 and 14, I think, to Pakistan to meet this
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And the same Tara guy then he is wanted for, because he's openly admitted to being behind
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the bomb blast that killed the Punjab chief minister, Bayant Singh, the last Congress chief
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minister, the last to last Congress chief minister of Punjab in 1996.
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This Tara fellow has traveled to Thailand, which has an extradition treaty with India.
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And the Thais obviously caught him and extradited him to India.
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And from that point on, it seems this Nijjar guy has taken over.
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Now, you have, I think, if you've been on Twitter today, you've seen this video of this
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Now, anybody who fires an AK-47 knows that this is not a precision rifle.
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This isn't for hunting caribou in the great Canadian wild.
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This is an extremely inaccurate weapon that fires lots of high velocity bullets.
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That's meant to lay down cover fire while Russian snipers then take out specific targets.
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His whole range of ammunition that he's seen firing and training people on are much more
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suited to terror activities than they are even remotely linked to hunting in any form
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So, you have videos showing him training up people at guns.
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You have him with a clear, and by the way, this Tara Singh fellow is serving a life sentence
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at the moment for the killing of the Punjab chief minister.
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How do you not, under what part of Canadian criminal law is this fellow not a criminal or at least
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a person of interest to be interrogated, given his own record of consistently lying, subverting
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the Canadian system, breaking law after law after law in Canada, and then being given citizenship
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Well, this is a question that I've asked myself on X or Twitter, whatever we're calling it
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I mean, I'm, you know, an immigrant here myself, and I've had to work very hard to be
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I mean, it certainly raises a lot of questions.
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He came to Canada under false pretext under, you know, and then applied for a legal residency,
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but he was denied because they didn't believe his story.
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He alleged that he claimed that he was in a prison in India, and he was tortured by Indian
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And the immigration panel was like, no, I think this whole story sounds fabricated, and
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And then he marries a woman in British Columbia, and then they reject his application yet again,
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And then I don't know what happened between then to the time that he got his citizenship
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But, you know, going back to this, this is, even if India, you know, was behind this,
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or, you know, let's just assume that India was behind this.
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There's a way of dealing with this sort of thing with an ally, you know, through lots
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of talks, back channel talks, intelligence sharing, whatever.
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The dramatic way in which Justin Trudeau went about doing this by, by making these allegations
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He's also, you know, in a sense, absolved of responsibility, if things turn out to be
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Because you can't sue as far as I, I think it's the same system in Canada as it is in India,
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where you can't be sued for anything you see on the floor of the House.
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So, you know, there's no perjury, contempt, or whatever that applies on the floor of the
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See, the problem here is, when Israel carries out targeted killings, which they do quite
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I think we all are old enough to remember what happened in the Dubai killings about seven,
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eight years back, where, you know, the Israelis botched a killing, or rather they left a trail.
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The Dubai guys came after the Israelis, but they'd all fled.
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And these agents had fled to Poland and Germany because they were in Polish and German passports.
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They were arrested on smaller charges, and they were extradited to back to Israel, knowing
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full well that they would not get extradited ever to Dubai.
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Today, Dubai would probably even collaborate with Israel in these kinds of things.
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Now, let's be clear, this, assuming the Indian government did this, this would not be an
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It would be a quasi-judicial execution, which is something Canada agrees to and has legally
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If you go to my timeline, I've tweeted out Justin Trudeau's tweet, when the US carried
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out a targeted killing of Ayman al-Zawahiri, the Al-Qaeda number two, I think by that time
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Now, if you go to the jurisprudence of targeted killing, which was, you know, the accepted
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jurisprudence is by Dr. Daniel Reisner, who was the, you know, he was the legal head of
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He's also a professor at the ICT, the ICT college in Herzliya.
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I think he was there at one of the conferences that we did, you and I, in Israel.
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He laid down five, six criteria for what made it legal.
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The first was repeated use, which Canada has endorsed with America and its alliance participation
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The second is public endorsement, which Justin Trudeau himself has over the killing of Ayman
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The third has been, if you are in a territory where there is no reasonable way of being able
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to extradite you, which Canada has proven over and over again, that in spite of credible
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intelligence with proof provided to Canadian authorities, they refuse to extradite these
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And by the way, Justin Trudeau's father also did the same thing.
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That guy who was responsible for the bombing of Air India 182, Pierre Trudeau refused to
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extradite him, citing, do you know what was the excuse used, Rupa?
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It was, you don't accept the queen as head of government, as head of state.
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So you may be in the Commonwealth and we may have an extradition pact with you, but we will
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not because the queen is not your head of government.
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She's merely the head of the Commonwealth for you.
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And a year later, that fellow went on to bomb AI 182.
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So what Canada does historically has been, they will cite, they accept the fact that everybody
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that India wants is actually required for crime or terror or something like that.
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Even yesterday, there was a political assassination.
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Again, it was a political crime, drugs-based assassination that happened of a Congress leader
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in Punjab, where a fellow sitting somewhere in Toronto has claimed responsibility for it
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because he's a big ganglord in Punjab while sitting in, well, somewhere in Ontario, not
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Because what happens is every time it comes to the extradition phase, the Canadian government
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So what happens here is you have this well-rehearsed routine where you carry out criminal drug-related
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shootings, you pass it off as political, then you make political statements against India
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and Canada, and you use the political shield to claim that this is a political extradition
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as opposed to a criminal extradition, and Canada always falls for these suckers.
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Now, understand, I don't think the Canadian system is dumb.
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I think everybody knows exactly what's going on.
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But we all know that Justin Trudeau kind of uses this kind of identity politics and especially
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extremely radical, violent identity politics practitioners on the ground to extend his control
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And this is what you see happening even today, where all Indian extradition requests are denied,
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citing political refusal or political dissidence as defense against actual physical crimes.
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The fourth criteria was it must not be used as punishment for a past crime.
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It has to be preventive, not preventive, it has to be preemptive.
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There's a very subtle legal difference in legal concepts of war out there.
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Preemptive is, you know, this guy is going to kill me, therefore I kill him today.
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You need to know the gun is in the hand and he's coming to kill you and then it becomes
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So it has to be preempting an ongoing crime, et cetera, et cetera.
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They've acquiesced in British and especially lots of American targeted killings.
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So I really don't know when he talks about sovereignty, what he's talking about exactly.
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I mean, how does he explain, how does he contrast his explanation with that tweet that he put
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Well, speaking of contradictions, so less than 24 hours after he makes these extraordinary
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He said he didn't want to escalate things with India.
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What are your sources on the ground in India saying about his climb down less than 24 hours
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Apparently, it had a lot to do, if you noticed, how your high commissioner to Delhi, Cameron
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McKay, left the foreign ministry just within four minutes of entering it in an extremely nasty
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He virtually assaulted the ANI reporter on his way out.
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So what ends up happening is it turns out that the Indians told him in no uncertain way that
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they have lots of juice on Liberal Party leaders, Liberal Party Sikh leaders, especially your former
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defense minister, Sajjan, having lots of dealings with criminal gangs in Punjab.
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Because you see, this is a very toxic environment.
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Punjab is one of the most backward states because, you know, in 1991, when we had our big
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moment of leap to industrialization and liberalization, Punjab was still in the throes of an insurgency
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It's still been an extremely feudal agrarian state where 20 percent of the population essentially
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controls all the politics, all the land, everything.
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And a lot of these people who become so-called, quote unquote, community leaders in Canada belong
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And they have deep, deep, deep fingers in organized crime back in Punjab.
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In many ways, it's like the, you know, the Pakistani army diaspora.
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Pakistanis are fundamentally good, decent people, but the army that controls the system is the
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sort of nexus of industrialists, landowners, the big landowners and the army.
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It's only the poor people's kids who die in Kashmir.
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All the rich ones are sitting somewhere in Toronto or Washington, D.C.
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or Boston or London, living the high life, using Pakistan to extort wealth.
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And apparently they have lots, lots of juice on lots of liberal leaders,
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So let's talk about the reaction of Canada's allies to these allegations.
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As you and I have noted on X, that the response has been very tepid.
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There was one report in the Washington Post which said that the Americans didn't even want
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You know, for me, the question I keep coming back to is, why on earth would you make these
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You know, what were you hoping to accomplish by this?
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Did you actually think that the very same, your allies would just pick your side over
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India, given that India is a rising economic giant and an important counterweight to China
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I honestly don't know what this man was thinking because, I mean, you tell me, Rupa.
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We all know you never go and do a public presentation till you have all your facts in hand and you
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You know, before your PhD or your thesis defense, you always do several mock defenses before your
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friends and try to make it as brutal as possible.
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This guy neither does his homework properly, as we've discussed before.
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The allies have all given him lukewarm responses.
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Why did he need to go make it public, knowing full well that the allies aren't going to
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You compare this with, say, what the Five Eyes did for, you know, the Kremlin's poisoning
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of Litvinenko, the FSB defector who then got poisoned by Polonium-210.
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They all stood by and they coordinated the expulsion of Russian diplomats, etc., etc.
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None of them are standing by Canada and Trudeau.
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And it looks very bad for the Five Eyes agreement for an ally to be left out in the cold like
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But then what does it tell you that Trudeau has gravely misread what the allies told him?
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I think this comes down to Melanie Jolie because she's clearly not been doing her job.
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I don't know what she has conveyed to these people and what those people or has she misinterpreted
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it and misconveyed it back to Trudeau because none of them have stood.
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Any murder anywhere is an extremely serious crime.
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They have said we have conveyed Canadian concerns to Delhi, which is what you do.
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The real intervention comes when people take sides and condemn.
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Have you seen anything remotely close to a condemnation or taking sides other than saying,
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It's all been just diplomatic speak and rather muted, actually.
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The UK was the worst because when they were asked about this, they said, oh, we're not
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They weren't even asked about the trade deal and they immediately switched to the trade
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And I just shared a tweet from the Department of Defense this morning.
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It's almost like they were trying to send a message.
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They were saying our priority is to strengthen ties with India because it's a key ally in our
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So, you know, you look at the contrast, right, between Canada.
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Now, Canada has alienated both India and China.
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There are reasons to be very suspicious of China given its role in the pandemic and that
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But India, I mean, you know, a fellow democracy, it's not a tin pot dictatorship.
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As you know, I've been a critic of the current Indian government.
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But, you know, just to do this in this manner, just, you know, it's just mind boggling.
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But I want to ask you about things that have happened in the last couple of days.
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You know, events have moved super fast in the last few days.
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There have been tit-for-tat diplomatic expulsions and travel advisories.
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Like, I saw you sharing a tweet saying that there could be a possibility that the India's
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Ministry of External Affairs, which is the Canadian version of global affairs, is now,
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India's seriously considering cancelling visas and overseas citizenship cards of Indo-Canadians.
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Is it all Indo-Canadians or Indo-Canadians with ties to the Khalistan movement?
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Or they suspect these individuals of having ties to the Khalistan movement?
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Look, my sources are telling me, and this, mind you, my sources are intelligent sources.
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Ultimately, there's a political decision that needs to be made.
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And the political masters will, I don't have sources out there right now.
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But the list right now is they've gone through all the videos of a world Sikh organization and
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other related Khalistani organization protests and things like that.
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They've also made up very specifically, they've called out a list within that of Sikh liberal
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party members who they suspect, whose social media accounts have been scanning for
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Khalistani literature or pro-terrorism as they view it, pro-terrorism, whatever.
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But most importantly, was something that went under the radar, which I have tweeted, is a
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list of about 24 Indian criminals, known murderers, extortionists and rapists who are hiding out
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in Canada at the moment, which Canada, we don't know how they got into Canada.
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We know they're in Canada and we don't know why the police in Canada isn't taking action
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The other part's been very specifically targeting liberal party members who are close to Sikh
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And the third has been anybody who appears on these WSO protest videos or any of these
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It is going to be called down, I presume, because, you know, different interest groups will come
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into play when the political decision is taken.
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But yes, you are going to apparently see quite a few cancellations of these sort of long term
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It's not exactly dual nationality, as you well know, but it's basically all the rights except
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Do you think we've hit rock bottom or is there worse to come in the worsening bilateral relationship?
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Do you think there's a serious possibility that this relationship can be repaired as long
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as Justin Trudeau is still prime minister of Canada?
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I've been speaking to a lot of people in government without exception.
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And, you know, India is a third world country where no minister or bureaucrat ever agrees.
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You know, if you've got 10 ministers in the room, you've got 24 opinions.
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This is one of the things they're very clear about, that this relationship is unsalvageable
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They are going to do everything to make life miserable for him from here.
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And, you know, there are many ways of doing this.
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There isn't a single big Canadian Sikh businessman who does not have business interests back in
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And Trudeau, as far as they're concerned, is persona non grata.
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Everything is fair game as far as he's concerned.
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You know, India is not one of those countries that goes berserk like China and starts using
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It's very measured, which is why I found the statement this morning, the travel advisories.
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And let's face it, nobody really, I mean, how many Canadians do you know modify their
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advice while traveling abroad based on a travel advisory?
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It's it's the people who are have had their seventh booster shot and who are masked.
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Those those guys pay attention to these things more than anything.
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In India, I think the French for it is le vanker.
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But I don't know, I think I'm just guessing that's what it is.
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So what happens is nobody takes these advisories seriously.
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And yet you look at the language in the advisories.
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Advisories are used for political signaling, short of action.
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You don't want to take action, but you're signaling something.
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It says very clearly politically condoned violence and hate speech.
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Which means India is putting the blame for all the political action that's been happening against India out here.
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The displays of the putative, the desire to carry out terrorist activities or like that Gurpatran Singh Panu, whatever he is saying, asking all Hindus to clear out from Canada.
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It has been laid at the door of Justin Trudeau, Chrystia Friedland, and Melanie Jolie.
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It is unmistakably a laying of command responsibility.
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And you know and I know exactly what command responsibility means in criminal terms.
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It is laying the foundation for a future criminal prosecution of Canada's current leadership when they're out of power.
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I think that is the logical place where that particular statement leads to.
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I think it will continue to, the whole will continue, keep getting deeper as long as Justin Trudeau is in power.
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And you know, Justin's kind of brought this on himself.
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If you saw his interaction with Xi Jinping, you know, he's just pointlessly passive aggressive.
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You can be honest, you can be straightforward with somebody, and you can have a perfectly, you can convey perfectly nasty messages with being perfectly polite without acting too smart by half.
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If you see, if you just go through that thing with Trudeau, he loves jargon.
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He loves hiding behind jargon and language, and he thinks this is peak diplomacy.
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He thinks it's going to yield him a Hail Mary in the elections.
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But the Indian government's also made a mistake.
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You see, the Indian government, the big mistake we've made, is going on calling this terrorism, terrorism, terrorism.
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We've been playing to Trudeau's narrative, claiming that this is political crimes,
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as opposed to what it actually is, which is a political patina on a druggy gun culture extortion criminal underworld that operates across Punjab.
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Because, you know, Punjab has the highest drug addiction rate of any state in India.
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I would urge your viewers to go watch a lot of these Punjabi language movies on Netflix, translated into English and French,
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which show you the extent of the problem out there.
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India should be harping on the criminal aspects of this, because there is not one chap who is associated with Khalistan,
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who is not in one way or another associated with the drug running, gun running.
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Or extortion gang somewhere, or land extortion gang somewhere in Punjab.
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Yeah, I know I said that was going to be my last question, but this question has been really bugging me,
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and this will be my last question, and I know you have to run into it, run to another meeting.
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You know, so at the height of the, you know, the two Michaels, as you're aware of the two Michaels,
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two Canadians who were imprisoned in a Chinese prison and were accused of being spies or whatnot,
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they languished in this prison cell for two years or more.
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And there was no tit-for-tat expulsion of diplomats, as far as I'm aware.
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And, you know, why is it that Justin Trudeau went after India in this way, but not after China?
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I guess it's to do with personal interest, that the Sikh members of his cabinet have business interests in India,
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but he doesn't. Most of his business interests would be kind of Klaus Schwab and WTO linked
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Just the sheer levels of conflict of interest that this man has.
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You know, that the island somewhere in the Bahamas or Caribbean or what have you.
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The amount of conflict of interest you see in this man is so enormous.
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But do I think that they have some kind of financial hold on him in terms of business interests?
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Well, on that note, I'm going to have to leave it there, Abhi,
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but it was a real pleasure having you on my show.
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And thank you for sharing your insights with us.