Juno News - HEATED： Convoy lawyer cross-examines deputy finance minister

00:00:00.000 I have a few questions for the three of you, and hopefully we can get through this in the 20 minutes that I have.

00:00:07.940 So, first, I want to talk to you about money laundering and terrorist financing.

00:00:13.400 You've kind of mentioned that previously, and of course, that's dealt with via the Fintrack legislation, correct?

00:00:20.460 That's correct.

00:00:21.460 And you can agree with me that the protesters in Ottawa were not terrorists, correct?

00:00:25.420 I have no information to that effect.

00:00:30.000 You have no information to the effect that they were terrorists, right?

00:00:33.420 That is correct. That's not information that I'd be privy to.

00:00:37.740 And you have no information that the protesters in Ottawa were laundering money.

00:00:45.680 Isn't that right?

00:00:47.840 The Department of Finance did not receive any information to that effect.

00:00:53.340 It's not information that we would receive.

00:00:56.600 But, Deputy Minister, you can agree that during the IRG meetings, you were present?

00:01:05.460 Yes.

00:01:06.580 Right. And at no time during those meetings were you ever informed that any of the protesters in Ottawa were terrorists or were money laundering?

00:01:18.980 Is that correct?

00:01:19.480 Sorry, just to interject for a moment.

00:01:21.320 And as far as the questions asking what ministers may have discussed amongst themselves in those meetings, that would be captured by Cabinet.

00:01:28.260 I'll rephrase.

00:01:29.940 Between the dates of February 10 and February 14, 2022, at no time were you informed that there was terrorists within the protesters in Ottawa, correct?

00:01:43.220 All I can say in reaction to your question is that the responsible agencies were watchful on that point.

00:01:58.000 And it was not an area where we had any expertise.

00:02:01.600 Sir, I understand that. But I'm not asking that. I just want a yes or no.

00:02:04.640 Now, you were never informed that these individuals in Ottawa, between the dates of February 10 and February 14, were terrorists, correct?

00:02:17.860 We had no information one way or the other on that issue.

00:02:21.480 Right. So the answer is no.

00:02:23.920 I said we had no information one way or the other on that.

00:02:27.020 So you have no information one way or the other. Let's make it clear.

00:02:29.620 Sir, you were not informed, you were given no information, that these individuals in Ottawa protesting were terrorists, yes or no.

00:02:40.720 Well, I'm not going to give you a yes or no answer, because my answer is that we didn't have information on that one way or the other.

00:02:50.720 It's just not an issue that we were involved in, cognizant of, etc.

00:02:57.480 But was it not that I understand from the records that FinTrack and the Ministry of Finance, based on a report in the media on January 25th, with respect to the crowdfunding, all right, that is what brought this to their attention.

00:03:17.880 And FinTrack and FinTrack and the Department of Finance started to look at these individuals in Ottawa, with respect to financing.

00:03:26.740 Can you agree with that?

00:03:30.940 Well, no, I can't, because I don't have enough information to enable me to.

00:03:34.760 I mean, at the time, we are not, and it's quite appropriate, we are not privy to information that FinTrack has.

00:03:51.220 That information, FinTrack, as you know, is an agency that is all about intelligence gathering, detection, etc.

00:04:00.820 It's not about enforcing.

00:04:01.820 Okay.

00:04:02.440 And so that information, just hang on one sec, that information goes directly, in the case of suspicious transactions or concerns about money laundering or whatever,

00:04:11.760 that information goes directly from the leadership of FinTrack to law enforcement authorities.

00:04:18.220 It never comes our way.

00:04:19.460 Right.

00:04:19.720 And I take it that between February 10th and February 14th, no law enforcement official informed you that there was money laundering going on with respect to the protests in Ottawa, did they?

00:04:31.440 I was not informed of anything with respect to money laundering one way or the other.

00:04:36.840 So, and I think, you know, it's fair to say then that the FinTrack legislation and the legislation dealing with terrorist financing and money laundering simply had no application to the protesters, did it?

00:04:52.400 No, it did.

00:04:56.180 Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question, but it did in that through that process, it confirmed that we needed to adjust the regulatory perimeter of FinTrack to include crowdfunding platforms and payment processors.

00:05:20.440 So, we did do that on a temporary basis under the authority of the Emergencies Act, and we applied it only to, in that act, only to crowdfunding and payment processors who had information with these illicit activities, and then we made it longer term.

00:05:44.240 Before that protest, and before the invocation of the Emergencies Act, there was no authority to do that, right?

00:05:55.100 That's why you needed the, you're saying that's why you needed this.

00:05:58.580 Is that fair?

00:05:59.640 That crowdfunding platforms and payment processors were not subject to review by FinTrack.

00:06:05.980 Yes, that's accurate.

00:06:07.360 And, but even if they were not the crowdfunding, et cetera, if there was terrorist financing and there was money laundering, then you could apply FinTrack and the criminal code to crowdfunding, right?

00:06:22.580 Without the Emergencies Act.

00:06:26.540 I can't answer that question because I'm not expert enough in FinTrack's legislation.

00:06:31.480 Okay.

00:06:32.080 So, I want to talk to you a bit about some crowdfunding.

00:06:34.240 With respect to crowdfunding, you can agree it's done by way of people donating to a fund online, right?

00:06:43.560 Yes.

00:06:44.840 And people donate to that fund typically to support a cause?

00:06:50.780 I, yes, that's one, yes.

00:06:53.940 And can you, you agree with me that some causes set up in crowdfunding are set up for a political cause?

00:07:00.860 I'm sure that's probably true.

00:07:05.240 And can you agree that a protest of a government policy or legislation is a political cause?

00:07:14.680 Well, I, I'm not going to answer your question in my capacity as the Deputy Minister of Finance.

00:07:19.120 I guess I'm going to answer my, answer your question in my capacity as a citizen.

00:07:23.780 Um, and I guess my answer is a citizen is, yeah, that sounds like it makes sense to me.

00:07:28.620 Right.

00:07:29.320 And can you admit that the GoFundMe and the Give, Send, Go for crowdfunding set up by Miss Litch 0.66

00:07:36.420 and the protesters in Ottawa were a crowdfund set up to support a political cause?

00:07:43.280 Um, well, I guess, you know, as you know, well, GoFundMe ended up, um, in effect, refusing

00:07:56.660 to continue to provide its platform for these funding activities.

00:08:02.020 And we'll get into that.

00:08:02.800 Crowd, so GoFundMe obviously came to some conclusions about what was underway here that caused them

00:08:09.880 to be uncomfortable enough that they wanted to, uh, restrict this from their platform.

00:08:15.560 Right.

00:08:16.080 I understand that.

00:08:16.680 But can you agree that when the GoFundMe was set up in January 14th, prior to the protest,

00:08:22.080 prior to them arriving here, that this GoFundMe and this crowdfund was set up to support a political cause?

00:08:29.460 Well, it was set up to support the, the fundraising activities of the people who were protesting both

00:08:42.900 in Ottawa and, I guess, across the country.

00:08:44.860 Right.

00:08:45.180 And you agree that the protests are a political cause?

00:08:48.880 Well, they're about a, they're about a political issue.

00:08:51.520 Yeah.

00:08:51.960 Right.

00:08:52.460 And so let me just put this to you.

00:08:53.800 This is in, uh, one of the, uh, reports already that's, uh, overview reports that has been

00:09:00.520 put in evidence.

00:09:01.560 And I'm just going to, uh, read it to you and then ask you a question about it.

00:09:06.200 The, the original GoFundMe on January 14th as amended later and put into the overview report

00:09:12.440 states this as the reason to donate.

00:09:14.900 To our fellow Canadians, the time for political overreach is over.

00:09:18.380 Our current government is in...

00:09:20.380 Yes, sir.

00:09:21.600 Our current government is implementing rules and mandates that are destroying the foundation

00:09:26.300 of our businesses, industries, and livelihoods.

00:09:29.260 Canadians have been integral to the fabric of humanity in many ways that have shaped the

00:09:34.300 planet.

00:09:35.260 We are a peaceful country that has helped protect nations across the globe from tyrannical governments

00:09:41.040 who oppress their people while now it has happened to us.

00:09:44.600 We are taking our fight to the doorstep of the federal government and demanding that they

00:09:48.700 cease all mandates against its people.

00:09:50.520 Small businesses are being destroyed, homes are being destroyed, and people are being

00:09:55.220 mistreated and denied fundamental necessities to survive.

00:09:58.440 It's our duty as Canadians to put an end to this mandate.

00:10:01.880 It is imperative that this happens because if we don't, our country will no longer be the

00:10:06.440 country we have come to love.

00:10:08.300 We are doing this for our future generations and to regain our lives back.

00:10:13.040 We are asking for donations to help with the cost of fuel, food, and lodging to help ease the

00:10:19.360 pressure of this artist's task.

00:10:22.180 But it's a small price to pay for our freedoms.

00:10:24.860 We thank you all for donations and know that you are helping reshape this once beautiful country

00:10:30.380 back the way it was.

00:10:32.400 So, can you agree that premise that I've just read to you for seeking donations, I know speaking

00:10:39.540 as a citizen, you can agree that that's asking for donations to support a political cause,

00:10:45.700 right?

00:10:46.660 I think it's asking for donations to support somebody's particular view about a public issue.

00:10:53.160 Right, and that's a political cause.

00:10:56.980 Well, I'm not going to judge whether it is or not.

00:10:58.780 It's a public policy issue that people have a right, perfect right, to agree with or disagree

00:11:05.160 with.

00:11:06.140 And I guess this group of people were out using a crowdfunding platform as a source of

00:11:14.080 raising money for it.

00:11:16.560 Obviously, it ended up being pretty problematic because GoFundMe walked away.

00:11:22.240 And we're going to get into that.

00:11:23.720 So, you agree that many people donated to both the GoFundMe and the Give, Send, Go, right?

00:11:33.440 I don't know what the numbers are, how many people donated.

00:11:38.060 And you know that those donations, based on what I've just said to you, were made on the

00:11:44.480 premise of that statement.

00:11:45.580 The money donated was to be used to support the protest, right?

00:11:52.240 I can't speculate as to why people made those donations or not.

00:11:56.920 I don't have any access to that information.

00:11:59.620 As the Deputy Minister of Finance, I'm sure you know that before the protesters even got

00:12:04.320 to Ottawa, that as of January 25th, the GoFundMe had already raised more than $4.5 million.

00:12:13.240 You know that, right?

00:12:14.900 I do not.

00:12:15.540 I did not know that at the time, no.

00:12:17.320 All right.

00:12:18.260 And I take it you are aware and had some discussion that donations to political causes are a form

00:12:28.560 of freedom of expression as protected under Section 2B of the Canadian Charter of Rights

00:12:34.060 and Freedoms.

00:12:34.660 Did you, were you aware of that?

00:12:35.860 I'm aware that the Charter protects the right to free expression.

00:12:42.320 Right.

00:12:42.640 And were you aware that donations to a political cause have been interpreted and continue to

00:12:50.100 be interpreted by the highest court as being part of freedom of expression?

00:12:56.680 Were you aware of that?

00:12:57.420 Yeah, I'm, look, the issue here, at least in my opinion, is not about donations because

00:13:09.880 nobody acted.

00:13:12.680 Even in the context of the Emergencies Act, no one, I mean, the RCMP was, I think, quite clear

00:13:22.120 and publicly clear that their intention here was not to take action on people who had made

00:13:29.980 relative, in most cases, I think, relatively modest donations.

00:13:33.960 So there really wasn't action here, as best I can detect, action here with respect to the

00:13:44.960 activity of making donations.

00:13:46.420 I understand that.

00:13:47.660 But the making of the donation, right?

00:13:49.560 You make a donation under the asbestos that it's going to be used for the cause, right?

00:13:56.860 That's when, that's how the donation, why the donation is made.

00:13:59.420 You can agree with that.

00:14:01.500 Well, I guess that would be the donor's expectation, whether or not it happened or not.

00:14:05.700 Right.

00:14:05.860 It's something that I can't comment on because I don't know.

00:14:08.300 And so when the government interferes with what is to be done with those funds, do they

00:14:15.640 not, can you not agree that it interferes with those donors' freedom of expression?

00:14:22.620 Can you agree with that?

00:14:25.100 Look, the government took a decision that these activities were illegal.

00:14:34.340 Right.

00:14:34.840 And we've been having some trouble in establishing what that is.

00:14:37.960 And we're going to get into that.

00:14:39.040 But I'm going to move on to another part.

00:14:42.800 This commission's heard evidence that the money from GoFundMe, all right, you talked

00:14:47.640 about it being frozen.

00:14:49.120 It was frozen following a request in a meeting between the city of Ottawa, the municipality,

00:14:56.720 the mayor, and the Ottawa Police Service.

00:14:59.100 Are you aware of that?

00:14:59.840 I have absolutely no awareness of that, nor is it relevant to our work in the Department

00:15:04.440 of Finance.

00:15:05.340 Right.

00:15:05.780 But you said it was relevant to, you said it was relevant, just in your own testimony.

00:15:10.620 No, I did not say it was relevant to our work in the Department of Finance.

00:15:14.020 I did not say that.

00:15:15.000 Sir, let me just finish my question.

00:15:17.480 You had said it was relevant that GoFundMe, on their own accord, froze these accounts, right?

00:15:24.620 You just said to that.

00:15:25.560 They obviously saw an issue.

00:15:26.800 And you said that just in your evidence while I was examining you.

00:15:30.100 So I'm going to ask you a little bit about it, okay?

00:15:32.920 And you can agree with me that the city of Ottawa, the Ottawa Police Service, they're government

00:15:39.480 entities.

00:15:40.100 That's not debatable, right?

00:15:42.740 They're not federal government entities.

00:15:44.600 Right, I know.

00:15:45.220 And they don't have anything to do with our job in the Department of Finance.

00:15:48.060 I understand.

00:15:48.800 But you can agree that they are government entities.

00:15:51.240 They are provincial and municipal government entities, right?

00:15:54.900 I guess so.

00:15:57.140 If I go back to civics class, yeah, I guess.

00:15:59.100 Yeah, well, I'm glad that you're thinking about civics, because that's part about what

00:16:06.200 this case is about.

00:16:07.140 Can you agree that when a municipal government, or a mayor of a city, or a municipal police

00:16:14.620 service, like the Ottawa Police Service, requests of a bank, or GoFundMe in this instance, to

00:16:23.060 freeze funds, that that is government action?

00:16:26.800 Can you agree with me on that?

00:16:31.000 Just so that I understand what you just said, that...

00:16:36.280 Where a government entity requests a fund, or requests a bank, or an institution to freeze

00:16:44.320 private funds of donations, of private bank accounts, or anything like that, where they

00:16:51.380 make that request, and it's from the government, is that a government action?

00:16:55.360 Well, yes, I think so.

00:16:59.140 I think it's...

00:16:59.820 Right.

00:17:00.520 And I take it to your knowledge that there's no legislative authority that you know of,

00:17:07.240 federally or provincially, that would authorize a municipality, or a police force, to make

00:17:15.560 such a request.

00:17:16.480 Look, all I can do is comment on this from the perspective of, A, the Department of Finance,

00:17:22.020 and B, the federal government, and the federal government, in the Emergencies Act, declared

00:17:26.500 that these activities were illegal.

00:17:28.440 As to your point about GoFundMe, GoFundMe took an independent decision that had absolutely

00:17:33.660 nothing to do with government action.

00:17:35.640 Sir, the mandate of this commission is to look at the circumstances surrounding the invocation.

00:17:40.400 I understand what the government did.

00:17:42.600 We're trying to find out why.

00:17:44.360 Okay?

00:17:45.080 So let me ask you again.

00:17:46.340 To your knowledge, I take it that you know that there's no legislation in Ontario or federally,

00:17:53.480 all right, that would authorize a municipality or a police force to request an institution,

00:18:00.120 a bank, GoFundMe, to freeze accounts.

00:18:03.100 Can you agree with that?

00:18:03.940 Look, you're asking me questions that we in the Department of Finance have absolutely nothing

00:18:09.640 to do with.

00:18:10.940 You're saying that you have nothing to...

00:18:11.540 If you want to ask me questions about our role in finance, that's fair enough.

00:18:14.800 But these questions are, they're not what we do.

00:18:19.000 But you understand financial legislation, do you not?

00:18:23.540 You understand that legislation governs your ministry, right?

00:18:30.620 Of course.

00:18:31.360 Right.

00:18:31.960 And then you also look at the legislation in provinces, and you try to make them interact

00:18:38.420 and work together.

00:18:39.280 Is that not fair?

00:18:39.980 Cooperative federalism, I'm sure you've heard that principle.

00:18:44.240 Well, with respect to the broadly understood, the operation of the economy and other things,

00:18:50.520 yeah.

00:18:51.120 Right.

00:18:51.560 But we're not a public safety institution.

00:18:54.380 We're not an institution that is responsible for law enforcement in any way.

00:19:03.000 There are lots of other agencies of the Government of Canada that are responsible for those things

00:19:07.600 and are responsible for the interactions that you're drawing attention to, but it's not the

00:19:14.280 Department of Finance.

00:19:15.160 So if that's the case, then why do they even ask you to come to the IRG?

00:19:19.180 Why?

00:19:19.580 Well, I think the answer to that's pretty straightforward.

00:19:23.040 There was a very substantial preoccupation on the part of the government with respect to

00:19:31.140 the economic consequences of the disruptions that were occurring in the country.

00:19:35.940 And our role at the time, we were people doing quite a bit of work on that issue, and that

00:19:43.680 was extremely relevant to the decision-making that was underway across the Government of

00:19:49.680 Canada at the time.

00:19:50.520 I understand that.

00:19:51.100 I'm not trying to cut you off, but I'm just trying to stay under my time limit.

00:19:53.480 So, here's the thing.

00:19:57.020 On February 10th, the IRG minutes that we do have, that are unredacted, the Prime Minister

00:20:02.120 advises we have two tracks.

00:20:04.040 He went into it with two tracks.

00:20:05.800 The first was to use general legislative authority, and the second track was to use the Emergencies

00:20:13.960 Act, all right?

00:20:15.540 And I take it, and there was tasks.

00:20:17.280 We have that evidence.

00:20:18.920 Tasks were given to your ministry.

00:20:20.760 Tasks were given to other ministries.

00:20:22.220 I can tell you with respect to the options that were being put forward outside of the

00:20:27.500 Emergencies Act, we don't know what those were because the government's claims solicitor

00:20:31.060 claim privilege in Section 39, Cabinet Confidence.

00:20:33.680 So, I have no idea.

00:20:35.360 But I take it that there had been inquiries with your ministry between February 10th and

00:20:42.600 February 14th about what legislation could be used in order to deal with the crowdfunding.

00:20:51.360 Look, I don't know whether you were in the room this morning or not, but I thought we

00:20:58.200 had a pretty thorough discussion of that with the Commission's Council.

00:21:01.620 I understand, and sir, I understand you're asking me questions, but if we're both asking

00:21:05.200 questions...

00:21:05.260 No, I didn't ask you a question.

00:21:06.380 I get it.

00:21:06.780 I understand.

00:21:07.480 But if we're both asking questions, none of us will have answers.

00:21:10.420 So, let me just ask the questions, and we'll go on, all right?

00:21:13.780 So, I want to talk to you now about the legislative change versus regulations and orders in Council

00:21:18.740 really quickly.

00:21:20.080 And can you agree...

00:21:21.200 You're going to have to make it quick because you're already over your time.

00:21:23.880 Thank you, sir.

00:21:25.360 Two points.

00:21:26.660 The legislative change versus regulations.

00:21:29.140 You said you couldn't deal with this by way of regular legislation through Parliament.

00:21:34.760 Why?

00:21:35.080 No, what we said, I think what both Isabel and I said earlier, was in the circumstance

00:21:43.780 where our concern was limiting the duration of these disruptions as much as possible, that

00:21:53.660 the legislative process was something that took a considerable amount of time and therefore

00:21:59.700 was not really a very effective instrument for dealing with a situation where time was

00:22:07.940 a significant impact, was a significant determinant of the extent of its impact on the national

00:22:13.100 economy.

00:22:13.780 Okay, but you can agree that the legislative process with Parliament as a whole is far more

00:22:19.260 democratic than a meeting in Cabinet that's essentially in camera and privileged.

00:22:26.160 There's no debate from opposing parties.

00:22:28.400 These things are then just passed by the executive, right?

00:22:32.620 Like, it doesn't represent input from the rest of Parliament, correct?

00:22:37.800 Look, I think the government took a decision as the duly elected government of the country

00:22:41.960 to invoke the Emergencies Act, which is itself a piece of legislation that was through Parliament,

00:22:50.780 and the government took a decision to use that in this circumstance and has been, I believe,

00:22:56.360 scrupulous in how it was used, kept the duration of the Emergencies Act to an absolute minimum.

00:23:05.820 I mean, it was, what, seven, eight days maximum for the whole thing.

00:23:09.620 So I think the government has proceeded in a manner completely consistent with the laws of Canada.

00:23:14.580 I understand.

00:23:15.060 But you can agree that in invoking the Emergencies Act, Parliament, via that legislation, lays

00:23:20.600 out criteria that have to be met to invoke it, right?

00:23:23.960 Yes, but the Emergencies Act had to be, there was a parliamentary process that followed the

00:23:32.340 government's invocation of the Emergencies Act in a manner consistent with the laws of Canada,

00:23:36.860 and that was done.

00:23:37.600 Right, and the documents to date show that because they were able, the NDP, okay, I'm going to ask

00:23:43.660 them, you know, about this last question. The NDP, before the debate even took place, had already

00:23:48.800 agreed to support the motion, okay? That's in evidence. The question is this. So they support the

00:23:54.880 motion. It goes to the Senate. They get indication that the Senate is not going to vote in their

00:24:00.080 favour. So they pull it. In my submission to you, that's the parliamentary process, right?

00:24:05.560 Right. Because if there was no grounds to invoke it and the Senate was going to revoke it, that's

00:24:10.260 a good process, isn't it?

00:24:11.380 I'm not going to comment on that. It's...

00:24:13.780 I didn't think you would. Thank you.

00:24:15.380 Okay. Next, I'd like to call on the CCLA, please.

Juno News - November 18, 2022

HEATED： Convoy lawyer cross-examines deputy finance minister

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