Juno News - November 18, 2022HEATED： Convoy lawyer cross-examines deputy finance minister
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Summary
In this episode, the Minister of Finance, Finance Minister Bill Morin, Deputy Minister, and Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, Bill Blair, discuss the protests in Ottawa, Canada on February 14th, 2022. They discuss the role of FinTrack and the Department of Finance in dealing with money laundering and terrorist financing.
Transcript
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I have a few questions for the three of you, and hopefully we can get through this in the 20 minutes that I have.
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So, first, I want to talk to you about money laundering and terrorist financing.
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You've kind of mentioned that previously, and of course, that's dealt with via the Fintrack legislation, correct?
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And you can agree with me that the protesters in Ottawa were not terrorists, correct?
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You have no information to the effect that they were terrorists, right?
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That is correct. That's not information that I'd be privy to.
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And you have no information that the protesters in Ottawa were laundering money.
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The Department of Finance did not receive any information to that effect.
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But, Deputy Minister, you can agree that during the IRG meetings, you were present?
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Right. And at no time during those meetings were you ever informed that any of the protesters in Ottawa were terrorists or were money laundering?
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And as far as the questions asking what ministers may have discussed amongst themselves in those meetings, that would be captured by Cabinet.
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Between the dates of February 10 and February 14, 2022, at no time were you informed that there was terrorists within the protesters in Ottawa, correct?
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All I can say in reaction to your question is that the responsible agencies were watchful on that point.
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And it was not an area where we had any expertise.
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Sir, I understand that. But I'm not asking that. I just want a yes or no.
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Now, you were never informed that these individuals in Ottawa, between the dates of February 10 and February 14, were terrorists, correct?
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We had no information one way or the other on that issue.
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I said we had no information one way or the other on that.
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So you have no information one way or the other. Let's make it clear.
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Sir, you were not informed, you were given no information, that these individuals in Ottawa protesting were terrorists, yes or no.
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Well, I'm not going to give you a yes or no answer, because my answer is that we didn't have information on that one way or the other.
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It's just not an issue that we were involved in, cognizant of, etc.
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But was it not that I understand from the records that FinTrack and the Ministry of Finance, based on a report in the media on January 25th, with respect to the crowdfunding, all right, that is what brought this to their attention.
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And FinTrack and FinTrack and the Department of Finance started to look at these individuals in Ottawa, with respect to financing.
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Well, no, I can't, because I don't have enough information to enable me to.
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I mean, at the time, we are not, and it's quite appropriate, we are not privy to information that FinTrack has.
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That information, FinTrack, as you know, is an agency that is all about intelligence gathering, detection, etc.
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And so that information, just hang on one sec, that information goes directly, in the case of suspicious transactions or concerns about money laundering or whatever,
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that information goes directly from the leadership of FinTrack to law enforcement authorities.
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And I take it that between February 10th and February 14th, no law enforcement official informed you that there was money laundering going on with respect to the protests in Ottawa, did they?
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I was not informed of anything with respect to money laundering one way or the other.
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So, and I think, you know, it's fair to say then that the FinTrack legislation and the legislation dealing with terrorist financing and money laundering simply had no application to the protesters, did it?
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question, but it did in that through that process, it confirmed that we needed to adjust the regulatory perimeter of FinTrack to include crowdfunding platforms and payment processors.
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So, we did do that on a temporary basis under the authority of the Emergencies Act, and we applied it only to, in that act, only to crowdfunding and payment processors who had information with these illicit activities, and then we made it longer term.
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Before that protest, and before the invocation of the Emergencies Act, there was no authority to do that, right?
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That's why you needed the, you're saying that's why you needed this.
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That crowdfunding platforms and payment processors were not subject to review by FinTrack.
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And, but even if they were not the crowdfunding, et cetera, if there was terrorist financing and there was money laundering, then you could apply FinTrack and the criminal code to crowdfunding, right?
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I can't answer that question because I'm not expert enough in FinTrack's legislation.
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So, I want to talk to you a bit about some crowdfunding.
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With respect to crowdfunding, you can agree it's done by way of people donating to a fund online, right?
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And people donate to that fund typically to support a cause?
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And can you, you agree with me that some causes set up in crowdfunding are set up for a political cause?
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And can you agree that a protest of a government policy or legislation is a political cause?
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Well, I, I'm not going to answer your question in my capacity as the Deputy Minister of Finance.
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I guess I'm going to answer my, answer your question in my capacity as a citizen.
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Um, and I guess my answer is a citizen is, yeah, that sounds like it makes sense to me.
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And can you admit that the GoFundMe and the Give, Send, Go for crowdfunding set up by Miss Litch
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and the protesters in Ottawa were a crowdfund set up to support a political cause?
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Um, well, I guess, you know, as you know, well, GoFundMe ended up, um, in effect, refusing
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to continue to provide its platform for these funding activities.
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Crowd, so GoFundMe obviously came to some conclusions about what was underway here that caused them
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to be uncomfortable enough that they wanted to, uh, restrict this from their platform.
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But can you agree that when the GoFundMe was set up in January 14th, prior to the protest,
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prior to them arriving here, that this GoFundMe and this crowdfund was set up to support a political cause?
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Well, it was set up to support the, the fundraising activities of the people who were protesting both
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And you agree that the protests are a political cause?
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Well, they're about a, they're about a political issue.
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This is in, uh, one of the, uh, reports already that's, uh, overview reports that has been
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And I'm just going to, uh, read it to you and then ask you a question about it.
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The, the original GoFundMe on January 14th as amended later and put into the overview report
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To our fellow Canadians, the time for political overreach is over.
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Our current government is implementing rules and mandates that are destroying the foundation
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of our businesses, industries, and livelihoods.
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Canadians have been integral to the fabric of humanity in many ways that have shaped the
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We are a peaceful country that has helped protect nations across the globe from tyrannical governments
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who oppress their people while now it has happened to us.
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We are taking our fight to the doorstep of the federal government and demanding that they
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Small businesses are being destroyed, homes are being destroyed, and people are being
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mistreated and denied fundamental necessities to survive.
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It's our duty as Canadians to put an end to this mandate.
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It is imperative that this happens because if we don't, our country will no longer be the
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We are doing this for our future generations and to regain our lives back.
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We are asking for donations to help with the cost of fuel, food, and lodging to help ease the
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But it's a small price to pay for our freedoms.
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We thank you all for donations and know that you are helping reshape this once beautiful country
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So, can you agree that premise that I've just read to you for seeking donations, I know speaking
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as a citizen, you can agree that that's asking for donations to support a political cause,
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I think it's asking for donations to support somebody's particular view about a public issue.
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Well, I'm not going to judge whether it is or not.
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It's a public policy issue that people have a right, perfect right, to agree with or disagree
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And I guess this group of people were out using a crowdfunding platform as a source of
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Obviously, it ended up being pretty problematic because GoFundMe walked away.
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So, you agree that many people donated to both the GoFundMe and the Give, Send, Go, right?
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I don't know what the numbers are, how many people donated.
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And you know that those donations, based on what I've just said to you, were made on the
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The money donated was to be used to support the protest, right?
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I can't speculate as to why people made those donations or not.
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As the Deputy Minister of Finance, I'm sure you know that before the protesters even got
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to Ottawa, that as of January 25th, the GoFundMe had already raised more than $4.5 million.
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And I take it you are aware and had some discussion that donations to political causes are a form
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of freedom of expression as protected under Section 2B of the Canadian Charter of Rights
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I'm aware that the Charter protects the right to free expression.
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And were you aware that donations to a political cause have been interpreted and continue to
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be interpreted by the highest court as being part of freedom of expression?
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Yeah, I'm, look, the issue here, at least in my opinion, is not about donations because
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Even in the context of the Emergencies Act, no one, I mean, the RCMP was, I think, quite clear
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and publicly clear that their intention here was not to take action on people who had made
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relative, in most cases, I think, relatively modest donations.
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So there really wasn't action here, as best I can detect, action here with respect to the
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You make a donation under the asbestos that it's going to be used for the cause, right?
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That's when, that's how the donation, why the donation is made.
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Well, I guess that would be the donor's expectation, whether or not it happened or not.
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It's something that I can't comment on because I don't know.
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And so when the government interferes with what is to be done with those funds, do they
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not, can you not agree that it interferes with those donors' freedom of expression?
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Look, the government took a decision that these activities were illegal.
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And we've been having some trouble in establishing what that is.
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This commission's heard evidence that the money from GoFundMe, all right, you talked
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It was frozen following a request in a meeting between the city of Ottawa, the municipality,
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I have absolutely no awareness of that, nor is it relevant to our work in the Department
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But you said it was relevant to, you said it was relevant, just in your own testimony.
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No, I did not say it was relevant to our work in the Department of Finance.
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You had said it was relevant that GoFundMe, on their own accord, froze these accounts, right?
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And you said that just in your evidence while I was examining you.
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So I'm going to ask you a little bit about it, okay?
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And you can agree with me that the city of Ottawa, the Ottawa Police Service, they're government
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And they don't have anything to do with our job in the Department of Finance.
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But you can agree that they are government entities.
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They are provincial and municipal government entities, right?
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Yeah, well, I'm glad that you're thinking about civics, because that's part about what
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Can you agree that when a municipal government, or a mayor of a city, or a municipal police
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service, like the Ottawa Police Service, requests of a bank, or GoFundMe in this instance, to
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Just so that I understand what you just said, that...
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Where a government entity requests a fund, or requests a bank, or an institution to freeze
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private funds of donations, of private bank accounts, or anything like that, where they
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make that request, and it's from the government, is that a government action?
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And I take it to your knowledge that there's no legislative authority that you know of,
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federally or provincially, that would authorize a municipality, or a police force, to make
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Look, all I can do is comment on this from the perspective of, A, the Department of Finance,
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and B, the federal government, and the federal government, in the Emergencies Act, declared
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As to your point about GoFundMe, GoFundMe took an independent decision that had absolutely
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Sir, the mandate of this commission is to look at the circumstances surrounding the invocation.
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To your knowledge, I take it that you know that there's no legislation in Ontario or federally,
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all right, that would authorize a municipality or a police force to request an institution,
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Look, you're asking me questions that we in the Department of Finance have absolutely nothing
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If you want to ask me questions about our role in finance, that's fair enough.
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But these questions are, they're not what we do.
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But you understand financial legislation, do you not?
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You understand that legislation governs your ministry, right?
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And then you also look at the legislation in provinces, and you try to make them interact
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Cooperative federalism, I'm sure you've heard that principle.
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Well, with respect to the broadly understood, the operation of the economy and other things,
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We're not an institution that is responsible for law enforcement in any way.
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There are lots of other agencies of the Government of Canada that are responsible for those things
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and are responsible for the interactions that you're drawing attention to, but it's not the
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So if that's the case, then why do they even ask you to come to the IRG?
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Well, I think the answer to that's pretty straightforward.
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There was a very substantial preoccupation on the part of the government with respect to
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the economic consequences of the disruptions that were occurring in the country.
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And our role at the time, we were people doing quite a bit of work on that issue, and that
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was extremely relevant to the decision-making that was underway across the Government of
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I'm not trying to cut you off, but I'm just trying to stay under my time limit.
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On February 10th, the IRG minutes that we do have, that are unredacted, the Prime Minister
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The first was to use general legislative authority, and the second track was to use the Emergencies
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I can tell you with respect to the options that were being put forward outside of the
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Emergencies Act, we don't know what those were because the government's claims solicitor
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claim privilege in Section 39, Cabinet Confidence.
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But I take it that there had been inquiries with your ministry between February 10th and
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February 14th about what legislation could be used in order to deal with the crowdfunding.
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Look, I don't know whether you were in the room this morning or not, but I thought we
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had a pretty thorough discussion of that with the Commission's Council.
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I understand, and sir, I understand you're asking me questions, but if we're both asking
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But if we're both asking questions, none of us will have answers.
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So, let me just ask the questions, and we'll go on, all right?
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So, I want to talk to you now about the legislative change versus regulations and orders in Council
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You're going to have to make it quick because you're already over your time.
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You said you couldn't deal with this by way of regular legislation through Parliament.
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No, what we said, I think what both Isabel and I said earlier, was in the circumstance
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where our concern was limiting the duration of these disruptions as much as possible, that
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the legislative process was something that took a considerable amount of time and therefore
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was not really a very effective instrument for dealing with a situation where time was
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a significant impact, was a significant determinant of the extent of its impact on the national
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Okay, but you can agree that the legislative process with Parliament as a whole is far more
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democratic than a meeting in Cabinet that's essentially in camera and privileged.
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These things are then just passed by the executive, right?
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Like, it doesn't represent input from the rest of Parliament, correct?
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Look, I think the government took a decision as the duly elected government of the country
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to invoke the Emergencies Act, which is itself a piece of legislation that was through Parliament,
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and the government took a decision to use that in this circumstance and has been, I believe,
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scrupulous in how it was used, kept the duration of the Emergencies Act to an absolute minimum.
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I mean, it was, what, seven, eight days maximum for the whole thing.
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So I think the government has proceeded in a manner completely consistent with the laws of Canada.
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But you can agree that in invoking the Emergencies Act, Parliament, via that legislation, lays
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out criteria that have to be met to invoke it, right?
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Yes, but the Emergencies Act had to be, there was a parliamentary process that followed the
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government's invocation of the Emergencies Act in a manner consistent with the laws of Canada,
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Right, and the documents to date show that because they were able, the NDP, okay, I'm going to ask
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them, you know, about this last question. The NDP, before the debate even took place, had already
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agreed to support the motion, okay? That's in evidence. The question is this. So they support the
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motion. It goes to the Senate. They get indication that the Senate is not going to vote in their
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favour. So they pull it. In my submission to you, that's the parliamentary process, right?
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Right. Because if there was no grounds to invoke it and the Senate was going to revoke it, that's
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Okay. Next, I'd like to call on the CCLA, please.