Juno News - How independent media outlets are beating the naysayers

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:06.540 This is The Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:00:12.920 Coming up, we bring together folks from four independent media companies in Canada

00:00:17.440 to talk about what they're doing and the state of the media business.

00:00:21.260 You don't want to miss this.

00:00:24.900 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.

00:00:30.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show, The Andrew Lawton Show, here on True North.

00:00:36.380 Oftentimes, we talk about the great value of independent media in the context of wanting to get you to support True North,

00:00:43.080 which we absolutely do want you to do and continue to do.

00:00:46.980 But one thing that I think sets independent journalists in Canada apart from mainstream media journalists

00:00:52.500 is that we tend to be a lot more collegial with each other than I think the mainstream media folks are.

00:00:57.900 And a lot of the times, I've had people from what would be ostensibly competing outlets on

00:01:04.120 because I always view us more as colleagues.

00:01:06.900 We're still a minority, so we have to stick together.

00:01:09.720 I think colleagues is a better descriptor than competitors.

00:01:13.020 So I thought, let's just have a whole bunch of these folks on at once.

00:01:16.500 We do things a bit differently on the Friday show and tackle a big issue, a big question,

00:01:21.040 and drill down into it with a panel of experts.

00:01:23.460 Today, I figure we'll go big with a look at independent media in Canada.

00:01:28.040 And we've assembled a couple of the big players here.

00:01:30.340 We've got Sheila Gunn-Reed from Rebel News, Derek Fildebrandt from the Western Standard,

00:01:35.440 and Roberto Wakerl-Cruz from the Post Millennial.

00:01:38.940 Sheila, Roberto, Derek, great to have you on the show.

00:01:41.280 Thanks for coming on today.

00:01:43.240 Yeah, thanks for the opportunity. I'm really excited.

00:01:46.220 I'm offended I wasn't asked earlier.

00:01:47.800 Well, you're here now. It's not how you start, but how you finish.

00:01:52.520 I want to start with you, Sheila, because I think you and I have like the mother of all independent media stories

00:01:57.320 that I know we've told a number of times, but I think we need to talk about it again very briefly.

00:02:02.160 We met up separately together.

00:02:04.400 We were each going for our own respective outlets in London, England,

00:02:08.080 to cover a couple of years back the Global Conference for Media Freedom,

00:02:12.160 which was co-hosted by Canada.

00:02:14.400 And at that conference, Chrystia Freeland, who's making this big stink about being the champion 1.00

00:02:19.660 of global press freedom, literally tried to exclude you and I from her press conference. 0.88

00:02:26.220 All of the other mainstream media journalists, to their credit, from CBC and The Globe and Al Jazeera English

00:02:32.140 and CTV and Global said, we're not covering your press conference unless you let Sheila and Andrew in.

00:02:37.360 So it was a really heartwarming moment.

00:02:39.620 We got to cover the story.

00:02:41.060 The sky didn't fall.

00:02:42.180 The world didn't end, but it ended up being rather fleeting.

00:02:46.380 The Liberal government went back to banning independent media.

00:02:50.080 You and I have not been able to cover their campaigns.

00:02:52.720 And a lot of the mainstream media folks who stood up for us in that moment,

00:02:56.500 their outlets have not really been advocates for anyone else accessing media and accessing government.

00:03:03.180 So where do you think at the top level we are in this country?

00:03:06.520 And how do you and Rebel fit into this landscape of independent media?

00:03:10.720 Well, going back to your anecdote there, I think that those people stood up for us because we were in Europe.

00:03:17.360 And I think they were the European correspondents.

00:03:19.960 I'm not so sure if that same thing had happened in Canada, those people would have stood up for us.

00:03:24.840 And we know that that's the case because they have never said that we should be allowed to report on the leaders' debates.

00:03:36.460 We've had to sue twice and win twice to get into those.

00:03:40.020 But with regard where are we in the media landscape, the state of journalistic freedom, I think it's never been worse.

00:03:49.520 And the fact that it is so terrible seems completely normal to the journalists within all of this.

00:03:58.920 They don't think that there's anything wrong with the federal government being their paymaster.

00:04:04.340 They don't think that there's anything wrong with a prospective sort of Internet censorship, a ministry of truth by another name, bureaucracy coming to regulate what independent news networks say on the Internet.

00:04:19.520 They don't think there's anything wrong with that.

00:04:22.060 And they look at us sort of with disdain because they don't know why we won't just shut up and get with the program.

00:04:31.020 Yeah, I think there's a lot of truth to that.

00:04:33.600 And I think one of the great things to see about even just the four outlets we have represented here today is how none of that's really stymied the success and growth we've seen.

00:04:43.440 And I'll go to you on this, Roberto, because the post-millennial has not just expanded vastly within Canada and doing podcasts and news reporting, but also a lot in the U.S. as well.

00:04:53.300 In fact, I think a lot of staff and end readers are in the U.S.

00:04:56.580 So how do you view, I mean, at the top level, the state of independent media in Canada, but also what post-millennial is doing in that space?

00:05:04.180 In Canada, the post-millennial, I mean, our game plan from the beginning was just to try to reach as many people as we could with a simple message and provide a voice that isn't provided by the other major players with CTV Global and CBC and basically all the rest.

00:05:21.140 They're all basically the same kind of beast that you can't really differentiate one from the other.

00:05:25.460 I mean, there is no real difference in what they stand for in any of that.

00:05:30.140 Obviously, in the U.S., the media landscape is a little bit different.

00:05:33.020 There is much more of a right wing representation in media, but we do have a bit of an outsider perspective.

00:05:38.080 We have Canadians that cover American news, which is a little bit odd. 0.54

00:05:41.600 I know for sure that Canadians aren't so gung-ho about, say, Americans covering their news, and that's something we definitely try to avoid.

00:05:51.300 But when it goes the other way around, it does provide a perspective.

00:05:54.080 I mean, there's been so many, I can list off plenty that come to mind of Canadian commentators that do American news.

00:06:01.640 And I don't know if it's just because the more right wing Canadians are forced to go to a space where their voices are more welcome.

00:06:09.740 That could be part of it.

00:06:10.840 But it also might just be the outsider thing.

00:06:13.240 And that's something that I think plays to our advantage.

00:06:15.420 And it wasn't something that I think we initially had in mind was to go into the U.S.

00:06:19.280 But the more that we started to do it, the more we realized that there was space for us there.

00:06:24.080 And that's part of the game plan now.

00:06:26.200 I mean, it's going well for us.

00:06:28.340 Well, I appreciate you sharing that.

00:06:29.940 Let's go to you, Derek.

00:06:30.840 Same question.

00:06:31.700 What's the state of the landscape here, if you will?

00:06:34.880 And how are you and the work that you're doing at Western Standard filling that?

00:06:39.960 I have probably got a bit of a different, I guess I come at this from a different angle than maybe Sheila or Roberto.

00:06:48.180 Because I'm a publisher.

00:06:49.720 I am not a reporter.

00:06:51.620 No one in their right mind would believe that I am a fair, objective, and balanced reporter.

00:06:55.740 I'm a publisher.

00:06:57.960 And so for me, I wear a few hats.

00:07:01.540 I have the operational side, the business side running under us.

00:07:05.680 And then we've got the editorial side.

00:07:07.280 We've got separate opinion and news divisions there.

00:07:11.280 From a press freedom perspective, I think this is probably the darkest point since at least the Second World War for press freedom in Canada.

00:07:20.300 I think you and Sheila and Roberto have spoken to that well, and I don't need to repeat it.

00:07:26.500 But at the same time, I look at this from a business perspective.

00:07:30.260 And the mainstream media, they're the candle.

00:07:35.540 And the light bulb has been invented for 30 years now.

00:07:40.280 The federal government is subsidizing the candle 30 years after the light bulb has been invented.

00:07:45.820 But there is no saving what they have in the long term.

00:07:49.280 Inevitably, they will die.

00:07:50.960 The market has selected them for termination.

00:07:54.000 And all they're doing is they're a patient that's feeding through a hose right now.

00:08:00.480 That hose is government subsidies.

00:08:03.220 These subsidies might, in the best case scenario for the mainstream players, it might keep them alive long enough to eventually make a transition to the new reality of the marketplace.

00:08:14.640 But it's the, you know, monopolies and olgopolies destroy themselves in the end.

00:08:20.900 And, you know, from where me and Sheila are sitting in Alberta, all four major daily papers are owned by a single company.

00:08:26.860 You know, so I'm writing a chapter on a book, in a book right now, kind of dealing with Canadian politics broadly, and I'm writing on the media and trying to, so I put a lot of thought into breaking this down.

00:08:38.160 The Edmonton Journal, for example, has, they read 100% of the Edmonton Journal's readers get their news from someone who has nothing to do with Edmonton.

00:08:51.400 They're getting it from a wire service like Canadian Press, or they're getting it from a pooled post-media correspondent on Parliament Hill.

00:09:00.020 But people who are extremely unlikely to have anything to do with Edmonton.

00:09:04.460 And all four major dailies in Alberta are the exact same thing, word for word.

00:09:10.560 They're just, you know, Rick Bell might be in the Sun and Don Braid might be in the Herald, and that's the end of the difference.

00:09:15.760 And then you have a similar media landscape in other provinces.

00:09:21.080 Alberta might be particularly hyper-concentrated, but it's going to be similar in other provinces.

00:09:25.960 And the light bulbs on the show here today, I think, representing probably a very large segment of the alternative or independent media, however we want to define that, were market disruptors.

00:09:40.500 You can't stop Uber once it's been invented.

00:09:43.460 There's no putting the genie back in the bottle.

00:09:44.780 So while press freedom might be at an all-time low in Canada, I'm actually quite optimistic for the future of independent and alternative media, because it's a simple market force of nature that government cannot stop.

00:09:59.860 Well, and sorry to just jump in.

00:10:02.300 I'm sure, Andrew, you're trying to keep us on track.

00:10:04.400 But this had me thinking about just the collegial nature of this conversation, that we are competitors.

00:10:09.680 Derek and I compete against each other in Alberta to some extent, and we compete with Postmillennial through some of our quick hit stories, and we compete with True North through some of our investigative journalism.

00:10:21.340 But there's a space for all of us in this, because we also do something a little bit different than everybody else.

00:10:30.040 And that is that we, as Derek says, we are disruptors.

00:10:34.720 We are a crowdfunded model.

00:10:36.840 Derek, you do traditional journalism, which is great, which, you know, from the places where the journalism happens.

00:10:43.640 Likewise with Roberto, and I think we serve to fill a void.

00:10:48.260 We exist in the vacuum left by the failures of the mainstream media.

00:10:52.580 So not only do we do news at Rebel News, news and commentary, we do journalism from on the ground.

00:11:00.040 Where, you know, like the CBC said, oh, it's too dangerous to do journalism during the time of COVID.

00:11:05.180 So we're not doing local journalism anymore.

00:11:07.100 And we're like, okay, great, we'll do it.

00:11:08.520 Thank you very much.

00:11:10.500 And we do something a little bit different here at Rebel News that I don't think any of us, any of the rest of you do.

00:11:17.140 And that is when we see a problem, we try to fix a problem.

00:11:20.820 And so, again, that makes us disruptors in the space, as Derek points out, that it's not for us.

00:11:29.880 It's just not enough to talk about the issue, although sometimes when you talk about the issue, like with all things, you measure it, you change it.

00:11:37.420 But I think that's why the dinosaur media look at us like we have three heads.

00:11:42.540 They just, you know, they're, as Derek points out, they're protected from those market forces.

00:11:48.720 They don't have to correct the problem because Justin Trudeau is like, here's some money.

00:11:55.120 Don't worry about it.

00:11:55.800 It's fine.

00:11:56.200 Yeah, and I want to talk about the independence aspect of this and the business model.

00:12:01.140 And I will get back to it.

00:12:02.260 But I first want to jump or dovetail on your point about Rebel being a fixer in some ways.

00:12:08.760 And I want to go to you on this, Roberto, because genuinely speaking, independent media tend to have approached journalism or comment.

00:12:16.920 And I'm using the broadest sense of that, including in that podcast and reporting and opinion journalism and column writing, all of that.

00:12:23.440 But independent media tend to be taking a very different approach to journalism than traditional media outlets are.

00:12:30.380 And you get a lot of people in traditional media that just reject that outright, that are saying, no, you're not a journalist.

00:12:36.200 We are.

00:12:37.300 But this is a change that I think people in audiences are OK with.

00:12:42.080 It's just the traditional media folks trying to hold on to their monopoly that seem to not like it.

00:12:46.980 Yeah, the audiences obviously love it.

00:12:49.780 I mean, audiences love what we do.

00:12:51.520 And we see that every day.

00:12:52.460 We get tons of engagement, tons of interactions.

00:12:54.540 And people read our articles.

00:12:56.080 The establishment types look at our type of content and call it conservative pamphleteering, as was written in the CBC in an attack piece that obviously cited one of their experts.

00:13:08.040 It was Alan Conter who decided to call us conservative pamphleteers.

00:13:13.820 Obviously, if you just look up Alan Conter, you find out that he was an executive producer at CBC for years in the 90s.

00:13:19.580 So not the most objective voice.

00:13:21.440 But yeah, so the media people don't like it, but our audiences do.

00:13:25.560 And that's really what's important.

00:13:26.840 I mean, we have a space.

00:13:28.020 We're growing still.

00:13:29.820 We've been around for since August of 2017, I believe.

00:13:33.220 And we're doing just fine.

00:13:34.720 And I wanted to just talk about something that I think Sheila touched on, that we are all competitors.

00:13:40.200 But I think it would be such a crying shame if anything happened to any of the outlets here.

00:13:44.760 Not just us.

00:13:45.400 There's more.

00:13:46.220 But while we all compete with one another, I want nothing but success for our independent voices because we provide something I think that's really valuable, that has space to grow, and people really like it.

00:13:58.360 I mean, that's the market.

00:14:00.760 And it's good.

00:14:01.800 It's a good thing.

00:14:02.440 Yeah, I mean, I love nothing more than when we get to run a story at True North as first reported by Western Standard or as first reported by Rebel or Postmillennial. 1.00

00:14:12.240 I mean, sometimes I say, oh, those jerks. 0.98

00:14:13.900 I was trying to work on that, and I couldn't close. 1.00

00:14:16.220 They got it.

00:14:16.980 But we also get joy out of seeing the same in the inverse, seeing our stories be picked up by each other.

00:14:22.420 And I remember, to go back to something that Ezra Levant, the publisher of Rebel, did some years ago, he was covering the Tommy Robinson trial in the United Kingdom.

00:14:31.980 And rather than just sending the entire Rebel crew over there, he actually brought people from different outlets.

00:14:37.980 And I was fortunate enough to be one of them.

00:14:39.740 And his rationale, I thought, was quite sound, was, you know, let's actually have more voices that are talking about these issues rather than just one outlet with one voice.

00:14:49.340 Because every now and then people will say, oh, you should merge with so-and-so or merge with so-and-so.

00:14:53.240 I say, no, I'd rather have, you know, five different news stories that are published by five different outlets covering something from the perspective of liberty than just one.

00:15:02.620 And then up against the mainstream media narrative.

00:15:05.380 Because, Derek, to your point, I mean, there is a dying aspect of traditional media, but there still is a very large footprint.

00:15:16.760 Yeah.

00:15:18.420 So for your statement and also what Sheila said, we're all referring to Sheila.

00:15:23.320 I don't know how Sheila made herself co-host here. 1.00

00:15:25.200 So, you know, we are competitors, but we're much less competitors than, say, Torstar is with Post Media, because they're doing the same thing.

00:15:37.620 Yeah.

00:15:38.380 One is slightly more center-right than the other one's center-left or maybe harder-left, but they're essentially the same thing.

00:15:46.540 You know, all of the media outlets on here would broadly be classified as at least consumed more by people on the right side of things.

00:15:57.460 But we're all offering fairly different products.

00:16:02.400 You know, the rebel does their own thing.

00:16:05.260 They do crowdsourcing and they do fix-it journalism.

00:16:10.360 Now, that's different from what we do.

00:16:12.660 Sure.

00:16:12.860 That doesn't mean I don't think it's a good idea or I think it's bad.

00:16:15.520 I think it's great.

00:16:16.680 I want them doing that.

00:16:18.500 But they're offering a different product from the Western Standard.

00:16:20.780 We've tried to find a space for ourselves, which is sort of between the mainstream media and between the independent alternative.

00:16:27.840 We have a somewhat mainstream presentation, but we cover issues and we cover angles that are ignored by the mainstream.

00:16:34.660 I primarily hire ex-mainstream media journalists.

00:16:38.940 On the other side of the wall behind my computer screen here is a room filled with the exiles of the Calgary Sun.

00:16:44.860 The Calgary – de facto, I own the old Calgary Sun.

00:16:49.600 I've hired the best people from the Calgary Sun.

00:16:51.500 They're not there anymore, with the exception of maybe Rick Bell.

00:16:53.920 He's the only Calgary Sun journalist anyone can name left.

00:16:56.740 So I hire, for the most part, I got people from Global, Chorus, Post Media, The Former Sun.

00:17:05.600 I say Former Sun.

00:17:06.660 Sorry, it does – sorry, there is still The Sun.

00:17:08.640 I just say Former Sun because I think I am.

00:17:10.240 Is there – the old guard of The Sun.

00:17:12.800 Well, there is something called The Sun, which is really, you know, just another – it's just a different tabloid form of Post Media.

00:17:20.340 But we offer something.

00:17:21.960 The Post Millennial offers, you know, a very edgy, digital, social media savvy.

00:17:28.640 Like, I think the Post Millennial is probably the best in translating their issues through social media.

00:17:35.340 They beat us at that.

00:17:36.780 The Rebel kind of beats us at video.

00:17:38.740 I think our strength is in the written word like a newspaper just online.

00:17:41.960 We're trying to get better at both of these to catch up to you guys on the other fronts.

00:17:46.220 But we're offering different products.

00:17:48.440 Whereas Toristar, Post Media, Black Press, they're offering – you know, Globe and Mail, they're offering essentially the same product.

00:17:58.740 So they're competing for a small, finite pie of advertising dollars and subscribers.

00:18:05.620 Whereas our people will – we have members of the Western Center that are Rebel subscribers, Post Millennial subscribers.

00:18:13.960 And they're not thinking, oh, I can only do one or do the other because they're getting completely different products, even if they're sometimes speaking to a similar audience.

00:18:22.740 Yeah, I just have to say that you completely sidestepped True North and me when you were dishing out your compliments.

00:18:27.820 So you'll never be back.

00:18:28.920 But thank you anyway.

00:18:30.280 So rude, Derek.

00:18:31.540 Yeah, I know.

00:18:32.100 So rude.

00:18:32.500 So rude.

00:18:32.740 I was waiting.

00:18:33.260 I was like, oh, what's he got for me?

00:18:34.340 And then he just, like, moves on.

00:18:35.900 Go ahead, Roberto.

00:18:37.620 Actually, I'll put in, like, on – like, for – actually, like, we just launched the Corey Morgan show last week.

00:18:43.480 That's me trying to do as good a job as Andrew Lawton's show.

00:18:47.300 Andrew Lawton's got, like, the best talk show in Canada right now.

00:18:51.260 Okay, you're back on.

00:18:52.440 I'm back on.

00:18:53.320 Thank God.

00:18:53.840 We're good.

00:18:54.320 That's all I wanted.

00:18:55.280 You're going to kick me off now because I'm trying to make sure Corey Morgan's got the best show.

00:18:59.260 Like, your national – Corey Morgan is in the West, in Alberta, since Daniel Smith got off the air.

00:19:05.600 Alberta has zero conservative talk radio.

00:19:08.460 It does not exist.

00:19:09.980 And so I see a vacuum there the way I saw a vacuum for print or digital print media with the Western Standard.

00:19:16.440 And we're trying to now fill it there.

00:19:17.640 So we're trying to emulate what you're doing, Andrew, because you've established a great, irreverent, really fun, free-flowing talk show. 0.99

00:19:26.460 Not to blow too much up your ass here. 0.97

00:19:28.160 But, you know, each has got its niche here. 0.99

00:19:31.260 And that's why, while we are competitors, it's a very collegial competition because we're offering very different products.

00:19:39.720 Yeah.

00:19:39.840 Could I just say something, too, is that while it seems like they're getting worse, it seems like we're getting actually better at what we do.

00:19:48.140 Obviously, post-millennial is new.

00:19:49.780 We're still learning our way around the block a little bit.

00:19:51.740 But when you go on CBC and just read what they're saying and what they're putting out, these articles that are so out of touch from what regular people like.

00:20:00.480 I mean, they put an article out that went down underneath everyone's radar because nobody reads them, just saying that Joe Rogan uses horse dewormer, saying that Black women should be working from home because they're protected from microaggressions.

00:20:16.820 And that, you know, that Black women have battle fatigue from getting questions about their hair. 1.00

00:20:23.080 I mean, these people are so out of touch and they're doubling down on their insanity. 0.92

00:20:27.620 Well, it just seems like our message is becoming more and more effective. 0.97

00:20:30.800 And honestly, the crazier they get, the better it is sometimes for us because we can point at them and say, look at how crazy those guys are.

00:20:37.640 That's that's who we were competing against.

00:20:40.800 Why?

00:20:41.520 Why are we doing that? 1.00

00:20:42.740 These people are nuts. 0.99

00:20:44.440 You know, I tell our team all the time we exist because the mainstream media is so terrible. 0.98

00:20:49.800 And so, you know, you go to these places and they're they're often a little bit prickly, the mainstream media, when we actually get allowed into places.

00:20:57.120 And they sort of look down their nose a little bit at you.

00:20:59.740 But I wouldn't be there if they were better.

00:21:02.700 So if they want me to go away, please get better.

00:21:05.600 That's all.

00:21:06.320 Just try to be better.

00:21:07.580 And maybe there wouldn't be a space for me.

00:21:09.640 But they're not ones to adjust their behavior based on viewer feedback now, are they?

00:21:14.780 Yeah, I want to jump in on this, actually, because one challenge in Canada and in the U.S.

00:21:20.440 It's very different because media criticism is a big thing in the U.S.

00:21:24.300 You've got cable news shows that have entire staff positions dedicated to watching other news outlets and then reporting on their reporting.

00:21:32.340 It's that idea of who minds the minders.

00:21:34.640 And a lot of that is, I think, very incestuous and overly introspective.

00:21:40.060 But I do think there is a place for it, for actually serving as a bit of a check on media coverage, especially since they're so quick to jump in with their Facebook fact checks and all of these other things and denounce things that in many cases are true.

00:21:54.420 But even just pointing out the tone that media is taking, like just this is just one example from the last couple of days, a CBC story, gender fluid dressing could lead to renaissance in fashion, says Advocate.

00:22:08.340 Now, setting aside that media outlets can cover whatever they want, this is CBC, the state broadcaster, one point however much billion dollars in funding to learn about the gender fluid fashion trend.

00:22:19.120 Probably not money well spent, I would say.

00:22:21.680 But for the most part, even if people didn't like that, no one would ever challenge CBC.

00:22:28.380 No one would ever report on CBC funding, about the decline in the CBC audience, about all of these things that are part of it.

00:22:35.060 And correct me if I'm wrong, but Derek, the only people that really pay attention to a lot of these things and the problems in the media status quo are independent outlets.

00:22:44.640 Yeah, the one exception was briefly Sun News Network in its time.

00:22:50.060 Yes, yeah, that's fair.

00:22:51.020 I mean, they went after the CBC so often that even I almost got sick of it.

00:22:55.820 It was it was glorious.

00:22:56.780 But you know what that experiment proved is that if you're going to operate in a media form, if you're going to use a medium of media that requires government licensing, it's highly unlikely that disruptors, especially non-establishment disruptors are going to be successful.

00:23:18.540 For Sun News Network to have been successful, they needed to get mandatory carriage license.

00:23:23.900 It's just to have an even playing field with the CBC, CTV, Global, Omni, million things in Quebec.

00:23:31.380 It didn't work out and they were offering an alternative, even though they were, I mean, it's hard to, you know, Sun News Network and Fox News are hard to classify, because they're kind of mainstream because they're big and corporate, but they shy away from being considered mainstream.

00:23:46.760 So they're kind of hard to pigeonhole in a sense, but the real lesson from Sun News Network was that if there's going to be disruptors, they're going to have to be aggressive upstarts.

00:23:59.520 They're going to have to, you know, they might, they might, you know, we've, we've managed to achieve a bit of investment in us, but it's not a ton.

00:24:07.640 We started with nothing.

00:24:10.140 And I think it's a similar story for everybody else on this panel, the organizations they're representing.

00:24:15.900 Oh, the rebel itself was born out of the ashes of Sun News Network. 0.96

00:24:18.800 I remember Ezra sending out a tweet, more or less saying, screw you guys, I'm starting my own media with blackjack and hookers. 1.00

00:24:26.400 And, you know, and I was like, well, there's Ezra being Ezra. 0.98

00:24:31.420 And then, then look, it happened.

00:24:32.620 I couldn't believe what happened.

00:24:34.060 Like the rebel became huge.

00:24:36.220 So these things have to be a combination of genuinely independent.

00:24:41.180 They have to be, they have to be underdogs, I think, to succeed.

00:24:44.360 You're not going to succeed by, like the National Post was a valiant attempt under Conrad Black to take on the mainstream media.

00:24:53.160 But then that got caught up in all sorts of corporate controversy.

00:24:55.860 And now Post Media is probably the least bad of the big guys. 0.94

00:25:01.480 It's actually, it's got a few bright spots that, that right in there on their opinion side, but their, their news side is just mainstream pablum, repeating the same crap, not doing much.

00:25:12.140 So, and, but I would, I would take from that, even if they were exactly where you wanted them to be on content, the problems that you outlined earlier on, on business model are, and ownership are still going to be there.

00:25:25.420 And I think the demise of Sun and the start of Rebel is a good way to talk about the business model.

00:25:31.920 And I'll, I'll go to you on, on this first, Sheila, because I know that one of the things Rebel did very uniquely, because we're talking about 2015 when, when Rebel was built in, in Ezra's living room and has since grown considerably from there.

00:25:44.360 It was entirely not dependent on the traditional infrastructure of mandatory carriage of the CRTC.

00:25:51.820 It was based on donations, on subscriptions, and on some advertising.

00:25:56.860 But I don't think advertising is, is that big a part of revenue, if I'm not mistaken.

00:26:01.640 So, you've got people that believe in it and want to put some money there, and people that want to get access to some premium content.

00:26:08.120 And since then, we've seen aspects of that in other work.

00:26:11.780 I know that Postmillennial has its subscription models.

00:26:14.340 I know that Western Standard does.

00:26:16.560 And all of this, and True North is a bit different because we're structured as a charity.

00:26:20.560 But even then, a very unique business model that's not dependent on, on the old way of doing things.

00:26:25.740 Because the problem with the bailouts, and Derek mentioned this before, apart from just the morally wrong aspect of it, is that there's no off-ramp.

00:26:34.560 These are basically now part of the indefinite existence of these outlets.

00:26:39.760 So, independent media is doing something that traditional media could do.

00:26:42.940 And elsewhere they are.

00:26:43.800 The Guardian, for example, is asking readers to support its work by donating.

00:26:48.500 But in Canada, no one's doing that.

00:26:50.160 They're still sticking to this thing that's not working and then going to the government cap in hand.

00:26:54.380 Well, and I also appreciate when the mainstream media journalists sort of look down their smug noses about us.

00:27:00.500 When we ask our viewers and our subscribers to support us, they say, ugh.

00:27:04.840 And then they look at Justin Trudeau with their little tin cup and shake it at him.

00:27:08.580 No, okay, sorry to interrupt, but you're right about that.

00:27:10.740 The judgment to crowdfunding, I don't understand it at all.

00:27:15.740 They're saying like, oh, you're asking people for money.

00:27:18.260 I'm like, what is every person, every news outlet with a newspaper sales department doing?

00:27:24.380 Yeah, well, and it's, it's, I think Rebel was sort of born out of whatever that Sun News did that failed.

00:27:34.640 So being tied to sort of those old terrestrial ways of doing television, but also the things that we are fundamentally opposed to morally and ethically, like taking government handouts.

00:27:46.520 Those were the two things that sort of created how Rebel was born.

00:27:51.920 So we're not going to take money from the government, but also we're not going to be beholden to big corporate interests or any one super investor, because then that can sort of sway your reporting.

00:28:04.020 So the more independent, the smaller the donations are, the more honest we are, and the more independent we are, but also going directly to YouTube at the time before YouTube became a censorship platform.

00:28:16.200 You know, it went around all those reasons why the Sun News Network failed, but, and also addressing the issue of the things you see in the mainstream media, Andrew, that you brought up and you're like, nobody cares about this stuff.

00:28:31.600 And Roberto, you too, when you had talked about, you know, I, we actually talked about that same story on the live stream this morning, the, how you have to work from home because your colleagues, your white colleagues are super racist about your hair or something.

00:28:46.480 You know, I saw an article the other day about how climate change is going to give you kidney stones.

00:28:54.060 And then a similar article in a similar vein, a couple of months ago, how it was giving koalas STDs.

00:29:02.120 There's really nothing climate change can't do.

00:29:04.460 But the reason for this awful journalism is because not only is it being, you know, it's being bailed out.

00:29:13.400 So there's no market correction, but it's actively being incentivized.

00:29:17.440 So part of some of the media subsidies are grants to local newspapers and local news outlets for climate change journalism.

00:29:27.000 So when you're like reading in your local Sherwood Park news, like me, and I'm like, no, nobody cares about this stuff.

00:29:33.280 This is nonsense.

00:29:34.540 Koalas, we don't even have koalas, let alone koalas with STDs.

00:29:38.480 The reason that's in your newspapers is because the liberals paid a journalist, gave Post Media a grant to have a journalist write it.

00:29:45.440 Yeah, no, I think you're very right to point that out.

00:29:50.820 I was trying to think of some like koala STD pun, and I couldn't come up with one in time.

00:29:54.500 So it'll come in the after show, I guess.

00:29:57.360 Roberto, Post Millennial has dealt with the revenue thing very acutely.

00:30:02.420 I know it's been a victim of its own success in some ways, targeted by a lot of these very left-wing activist groups trying to demonetize it, get advertisers to cancel.

00:30:12.500 And some of these groups have had some success with Post Millennial getting advertisers to say no.

00:30:18.360 I know Breitbart was targeted back in the day.

00:30:20.940 How has that actually been realistically?

00:30:24.220 Because I know they claim victory and, you know, make it seem like they've shut you down if they get someone to say, yeah, I'm going to spend $5 elsewhere.

00:30:30.880 But does that actually make a dent?

00:30:33.140 It's annoying.

00:30:35.860 It's incredibly annoying.

00:30:37.720 You know, this all started a little while back by, I can't remember the exact activist name, Chad something that he started to go after Surfshark,

00:30:47.680 accusing one of our journalists, our editor at large, Andy Ngo, of providing kill lists for white supremacists or some other insane claim, obviously untrue.

00:30:58.200 And Surfshark just, you know, did not have our backs and just decided to, you know, part ways with us.

00:31:04.140 That opened this whole can of worms.

00:31:06.060 We've got a target on our back.

00:31:07.260 This lady that's now just going after us, messaging all of our sponsors and advertisers saying that we are neo-Nazis, 1.00

00:31:15.340 which is, again, just ridiculous, has absolutely no merit. 0.95

00:31:18.920 And it's annoying.

00:31:19.980 But obviously, when a challenge appears, you assess the situation and you try to adjust.

00:31:26.560 And we have, I mean, we've done a really good job.

00:31:28.420 We've been asking for support through donations and subscriptions.

00:31:31.440 And for the most part, it's actually worked quite a bit.

00:31:34.560 I mean, we don't have the infinite tap of government money that places like the CBC have.

00:31:40.400 I mean, just before this interview, I was just having fun going through the CBC kids, which is one of the worst things I've ever seen.

00:31:49.700 And this is what you can do with unlimited government money.

00:31:52.220 I mean, I was just looking at one because I couldn't remember if I remembered it right.

00:31:55.620 It's a little unrelated, but it was a story about, I think, Megan Thee Stallion, this rapper, accused Tory Lanez, a rapper, of, like, beating her or something.

00:32:04.340 And they ran that story on the same day that Falcon 9 went to space.

00:32:08.900 So we have unlimited government money.

00:32:10.800 You can do all that.

00:32:11.420 That's a little unrelated.

00:32:12.380 But we can't.

00:32:13.400 We have to rely on our audience, our base.

00:32:16.140 And, I mean, we have an audience and a base that likes us and support us.

00:32:19.980 And when they see psychos going after us, they go, hey, they didn't do anything wrong.

00:32:23.420 They're nice.

00:32:23.840 I like those guys.

00:32:24.540 They report us news that you guys don't do. 1.00

00:32:27.440 And you guys are psychos and crazies. 0.94

00:32:29.560 So people are usually kind of willing to throw in two, three, five bucks. 0.96

00:32:33.700 And it helps.

00:32:34.280 It goes a long way.

00:32:35.200 And it's a sustainable model.

00:32:37.060 And, I mean, if we have to continue to adjust, then we will.

00:32:40.080 I mean, you can throw anything at us, it feels like.

00:32:42.640 And we will find a way to survive.

00:32:44.340 I mean, we're adamant here.

00:32:45.940 And I think all your guys' place, too.

00:32:48.100 True North, Rebel, for sure. 0.90

00:32:49.860 And Western.

00:32:51.740 Yeah.

00:32:52.540 Yeah.

00:32:52.760 One interesting thing, and I should say, by the way, I mean, this is obviously a more

00:32:57.060 right-leaning panel.

00:32:58.240 The independent media is not limited to small-c conservatism or libertarianism or anything

00:33:03.300 like that.

00:33:03.860 Blacklock's reporter is very equal opportunity in its reporting.

00:33:07.720 There are also outlets on the left, like Passage and Rabble and, you know, all of these places

00:33:12.140 where, again, I may not like their bias, but I would still very much support their press

00:33:16.740 freedom.

00:33:17.180 I think they're adding a much-needed diversity into the landscape.

00:33:20.880 Oftentimes, they haven't wanted to cooperate on that.

00:33:23.220 They haven't understood that their press freedom is our press freedom, but that is on them.

00:33:28.440 One area where I have to toot our collective horns on this, and I want to talk to you about

00:33:33.140 this first, Derek, is that as much as we tend to be accused of being conservative mouthpieces,

00:33:38.540 oftentimes Big C, that has never been further from the truth.

00:33:42.000 And I think small-c conservative politicians, big-c conservative politicians as well, hate

00:33:48.020 in some ways that there are conservative media outlets because it opens up a whole new flank

00:33:52.960 that they need to defend against.

00:33:55.460 Because when we criticize, whether it's Aaron O'Toole or Jason Kenney or Doug Ford, we're

00:34:00.680 doing it in a way that I think is a lot more in alignment with where their issues are.

00:34:06.040 And one big example of this is the 2020 conservative leadership race.

00:34:09.920 The post-debate scrum was questions about—one of the debates, 50% of the questions were about

00:34:17.760 abortion, and in the other debate, 50% of the questions asked in the scrum were about

00:34:22.420 systemic racism.

00:34:23.400 These are not the issues that conservative voters tend to care about.

00:34:27.060 And I know that when Jason Kenney has to be defending a story in the Western Standard

00:34:31.860 or True North or Rebel or Post-Millennial, same as Aaron O'Toole, that's a lot of the time

00:34:37.300 a lot harder for them.

00:34:39.380 Yeah.

00:34:40.780 Do you know how many times Jason Kenney has taken questions from Western Standard

00:34:44.320 Reporters?

00:34:45.940 Never.

00:34:46.800 Zero.

00:34:47.080 Really?

00:34:47.300 He has never, ever once, unless I'm mistaken, ever taken a single question from one of our

00:34:53.160 reporters.

00:34:53.680 Because I get questions in and I'm not even in Alberta.

00:34:56.580 Well, you're nicer than me.

00:34:57.760 Yeah.

00:34:59.360 But yeah, no, he, you know, it's not just Jason Kenney, but a lot of big C conservative

00:35:05.160 politicians are extremely sensitive about that.

00:35:08.360 Because just imagine this is a press conference, and I'm politician XYZ, and the CBC asked me

00:35:15.320 a question, you know, or, Jason, why did you cut this important social program?

00:35:22.020 Why do you hate children?

00:35:23.660 And then, you know, the traditional conservative response is, well, we didn't cut it.

00:35:27.280 We've just reallocated a few resources within the department to make it more efficient.

00:35:31.840 We've increased spending, actually.

00:35:33.180 We love, we love children.

00:35:35.060 Then if the next question is, Premier, why did, why aren't you cutting this wasteful boondoggle

00:35:40.300 of a program?

00:35:42.060 He can't then turn around and say, you know what?

00:35:44.160 We did cut it.

00:35:45.020 We eliminated it.

00:35:45.940 That was a wasteful thing.

00:35:47.400 And there's nothing left.

00:35:49.240 We burned it to the ground.

00:35:51.020 Well, that's the problem with funding a war on two fronts.

00:35:54.480 Most in both military or in politics, you would rather have two enemies on one side than

00:36:01.600 one enemy on one side and another enemy on another.

00:36:04.740 Now, and the problem is a lot of these big C conservative politicians view independent media

00:36:12.000 that is, you know, speaking to more of a center-right audience as an enemy, and they shouldn't be.

00:36:17.940 They should view it as just another voice in the media.

00:36:21.220 If they're smart, they can see it as creating space.

00:36:23.660 But most, at least outside of leadership races, tend to view it as an enemy.

00:36:29.820 You've probably noticed when there's a leadership race on, conservative politicians are really

00:36:35.320 nice to you because you're speaking to the people they need to vote to make them leaders.

00:36:39.680 And they'll say all sorts of things, and they'll say all sorts of policies like carbon tax

00:36:44.760 during a leadership race.

00:36:46.720 And then once that's over, well, they don't want to deal with that anymore.

00:36:49.880 They want to fight on a single front.

00:36:52.300 Yeah, well, Aaron O'Toole and CBC defunding, which has never been spoken of again since

00:36:56.800 the leadership race.

00:36:57.800 That's free speech.

00:37:00.620 So I think that's a common dynamic to this.

00:37:03.700 But also then there's, you know, with, you know, Sheila and Roberto were talking about

00:37:08.520 this, you know, the condescending view of some of the mainstream media towards independent

00:37:13.860 media.

00:37:14.860 I think a lot of that is around crowdfunding.

00:37:18.640 And I can sort of see where they're coming from things, but I think they're looking at

00:37:23.440 it the wrong way.

00:37:24.120 Like Western Standard, we don't do crowdfunding except in very limited circumstances, like our

00:37:29.300 student journalism program, or if someone sues us or something, but it's not a regular

00:37:33.700 thing.

00:37:34.100 It's not a part of our business model.

00:37:35.480 We don't budget a dollar for it in our budget every year, any year.

00:37:40.260 But we don't have it.

00:37:42.400 We don't judge media that do do crowdfunding because they're being open about what they're

00:37:47.380 doing with it.

00:37:48.040 They're being open about their motives.

00:37:49.860 We rely, you know, somewhat on advertising, but we sell our advertisements directly.

00:37:57.300 I was speaking to someone, I won't name the media outlet, but one of the big mainstream

00:38:00.500 ones just yesterday, and they were, their mind was blown that we actually sell advertising

00:38:05.580 directly.

00:38:06.640 And it was blowing my mind that, what do you mean, you guys just stop selling your own

00:38:10.020 ads now?

00:38:10.620 Maybe that's a big part of it.

00:38:12.820 But we sell our ads directly.

00:38:14.320 We generally find corporate partners that at least somewhat align in our values.

00:38:20.260 So it's, it's, it's got at least some, it might not be canceled proof, but it's, it's

00:38:23.720 canceled protected or, or insulated.

00:38:27.240 But a lot of the snobbery is also if you don't have a physical print magazine.

00:38:31.160 So behind me here, Western Standard was a print magazine at one point until 2007.

00:38:36.560 Before that, there was the Alberta report, our predecessor.

00:38:40.840 It just doesn't make sense to do.

00:38:42.920 I've had a lot of people say, especially old people in rural Alberta say, Eric, you got

00:38:46.440 to bring back that print magazine, like Ted Byfield had, who, who just passed a moment

00:38:51.580 of, let's just take a moment of respect for the godfather of independent journalism in

00:38:56.440 Canada.

00:38:57.660 The Ted Byfield and all of the Byfields after him, they really were the foundation of independent

00:39:04.920 media in Canada long before that was even a term.

00:39:08.980 But it's about, you have to, we just need to be open about what our business models are.

00:39:14.680 We were, we have, we're somewhat of a hybrid between the mainstream and the alternatives.

00:39:19.680 But a lot of the snobbery that comes is if you don't have a physical paper and the physical

00:39:23.880 papers are losing the mainstream guy's money.

00:39:26.880 The problem is in their worldview, you're not a real publisher unless you've got paper or

00:39:33.240 you're on the CRTC approved low number dial channel on television.

00:39:38.940 If you don't have one of those two things, you're not real media.

00:39:43.080 And, and so that old, very archaic view of what is real media is not just the snobbery

00:39:50.400 that comes through on their journalistic level.

00:39:51.940 It translates to very bad business decisions on their operational level.

00:39:57.340 And, and it's, it's for, for both that, that bleeding of that snobbery or, or status that

00:40:04.280 comes with having that, that CRTC channel or having that physical newspaper.

00:40:10.640 It, it, it damages their editorial content.

00:40:13.700 And it, and it, I think even more seriously damages their business because they're not

00:40:17.740 willing to cut ties with those dying business models.

00:40:22.020 Roberto, do you think that is a hurdle that, that credibility hurdle is one that will just

00:40:26.940 naturally resolve as generations shift.

00:40:29.860 And as the people that demand the, the brick and mortar office and the print publication

00:40:34.020 eventually, you know, move on from their earthly existence or, or do you think that this

00:40:38.020 is something that independent media needs to tackle now, assert its credibility and legitimacy

00:40:42.960 to, to grow and, and to get to that next, next level?

00:40:46.420 Yeah, probably the latter.

00:40:47.860 I don't think it's just going to go away.

00:40:49.280 It definitely is going to take work, uh, an effort to prove that we belong in this space

00:40:54.740 because, uh, uh, as of right now, I mean, people, yeah, look, just look down at us from

00:41:00.520 where they're standing.

00:41:01.900 So, I mean, it's going to take work.

00:41:03.460 I think that we're getting there.

00:41:04.760 I think the more space that we take up, the more that we're hard to ignore.

00:41:08.440 Um, and that's exactly what I think we need to keep doing.

00:41:11.080 I mean, it's working.

00:41:11.980 I, I, I think we've all had, uh, I hope I'm not speaking out of turn, but I think we've

00:41:16.480 all had pretty good years.

00:41:17.440 I mean, the post-millennials had a great year and we're looking to keep going.

00:41:20.580 Uh, there's, there's nothing that, uh, credibility will come.

00:41:24.900 There there's going to be a time where people have to admit that we're doing

00:41:27.520 something that works and you can't ignore that forever.

00:41:30.360 That's really it.

00:41:31.240 There's not too much else to add.

00:41:33.060 You just got to keep working.

00:41:34.480 And, uh, eventually, you know, they laugh at first, but then it's, it's

00:41:37.880 hard to ignore.

00:41:38.460 Well, and, and I mean, the proof is just seeing how many stories I write that come

00:41:44.220 out two or three days later in CBC and the Toronto star.

00:41:47.720 And, and, and they may not be copying me.

00:41:50.060 Like they may have independently.

00:41:51.500 Cause again, I don't think I have a huge staple of CBC reporters that are following my work,

00:41:56.080 but, but, but even then they're either copying and just completely ripping it off or they're

00:42:01.180 just late to the party.

00:42:02.340 Either way, that's a sign that we're doing real work here.

00:42:04.960 And I know Sheila, this is, I don't know if you've just like make notches on the wall 0.99

00:42:08.680 in your studio or something, but I, this has happened to you countless times.

00:42:11.640 Hasn't it?

00:42:12.740 So many times on so many big stories.

00:42:15.080 Like that's the thing.

00:42:16.920 I don't think we have to worry about credibility because the mainstream media already thinks

00:42:21.760 we're credible enough to poach our stories from, you know, they think we're credible enough.

00:42:26.940 I think some of the smugness about us might be jealousy about the freedom that we have.

00:42:33.180 We have the freedom to speak our minds, honestly, on the subjects that we care about.

00:42:39.040 For example, I was having a conversation sort of off the record with somebody in mainstream

00:42:42.740 media who doesn't hate my guts.

00:42:44.460 And they were sort of taken aback by the story process at rebel news.

00:42:49.760 Not that it's, you know, sort of loosey goosey because it's not our second largest cost outside

00:42:55.560 of journalists salaries is lawyers because we have to lawyer everything.

00:43:00.420 But just the pitch process, how journalists pitch their stories to me, I guess in other

00:43:06.340 newsrooms, they go around assigning things.

00:43:08.320 And I, I don't think that that that's not how things work at rebel news, because I have

00:43:13.540 journalists with different interests who are passionate about certain issues.

00:43:17.340 And I let them sort of lead the way on the things that become their beat.

00:43:24.080 And from what I understand at other news places, I don't know, I'm not a trained journalist.

00:43:28.000 I've never worked anywhere else, but that's not how it works.

00:43:31.240 And so for us, I think that the other news agencies are jealous of how free we get to be

00:43:38.240 with our opinions and our thoughts, because I don't think they have that at all.

00:43:42.480 I do think on that note, you need to send David Menzies to the Toronto Zoo to talk about

00:43:47.960 koala STDs, though.

00:43:49.340 Oh, there's a story where he dressed as a cat one time and it never went to air.

00:43:53.600 It's a long story.

00:43:54.640 I'm not putting David Menzies with animals.

00:43:57.160 It'll just be a catastrophe.

00:43:58.580 One of my great failings is my parking spot outside the building here, they asked me for

00:44:05.580 the company name to go on it.

00:44:07.060 And they said, oh, Western Standard's too long.

00:44:10.080 And not thinking very well, I sent them a short form Western STD.

00:44:17.080 Every morning I pull up and I have to pull up to my big STD.

00:44:21.400 It's not, it's sort of, I'm embarrassed every single morning.

00:44:28.800 The lessons you only need to learn once.

00:44:31.660 Very, very pleased to have all of you joining us.

00:44:34.600 And I'm so glad you're doing the work that you're doing.

00:44:36.540 We have on the line from the post-millennial Roberto Wakerl-Cruz, from Rebel News, Sheila

00:44:42.000 Gunn-Reed, and from the Western Standard.

00:44:44.640 I'll go with the full to salvage your dignity there, Derek Fildebrandt.

00:44:48.820 I'm a big fan.

00:44:50.100 I'm a reader.

00:44:50.560 I'm a listener.

00:44:51.320 I'm a subscriber to all three.

00:44:53.140 And I know that we oftentimes benefit greatly from just having this space and building this

00:44:58.680 space that we all get to live and play in.

00:45:01.240 So to all three of you, thanks for the work that you're doing and for coming on today.

00:45:04.280 It's been a pleasure.

00:45:05.460 Thanks a lot, Andrew.

00:45:06.400 God bless you.

00:45:07.980 That does it for us.

00:45:09.020 We will be back next week with more of The Andrew Lawton Show here on True North.

00:45:12.500 Thank you.

00:45:13.020 God bless and good day.

00:45:14.200 Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:45:16.040 Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.

Juno News - January 14, 2022

How independent media outlets are beating the naysayers

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