Juno News - How 'Politically Correct Totalitarians' are Undermining Canadian Universities

00:00:00.000 Hi everyone, this is Lindsay Shepard, Investigative Journalism Fellow with TrueNorth,

00:00:05.460 and today I am interviewing Dr. Frances Widowson.

00:00:09.320 Dr. Frances Widowson is Associate Professor in the Department of Economics, Justice, and Policy Studies

00:00:15.300 at Mount Royal University in Calgary, Alberta.

00:00:18.860 Her first book, co-authored with Albert Howard and published in 2008,

00:00:23.500 is called Disrobing the Aboriginal Industry, the Deception Behind Indigenous Cultural Preservation.

00:00:29.580 Her second book, also co-edited with Albert Howard, was published in 2013

00:00:34.040 and is called Aboriginal Education in Canada, Searching for Solutions.

00:00:39.120 Her third book is called Separate But Unequal, How Parallelist Ideology Conceals Indigenous Dependency,

00:00:46.520 and it is coming out on November 5th, 2019, with the University of Ottawa Press.

00:00:51.880 We will be going into what parallelism means and what the book is about in this podcast today.

00:00:56.800 But first, for a bit of context, Frances and I have been connected for, I suppose, about a year and a half now.

00:01:03.840 Frances runs the Rational Space Network at Mount Royal University,

00:01:07.780 and she told me the name, Rational Space Network, it's a play on safe space, you know.

00:01:12.900 So instead of a safe space, we have a rational space to discuss ideas and current events.

00:01:18.420 I was a panelist with the Rational Space Network almost about a year ago now, in November 2018.

00:01:24.120 That was on the topic of, should universities vet who speaks on campus?

00:01:29.600 Where I argued, no.

00:01:31.060 University administration should not vet who speaks on campus.

00:01:35.180 So I can definitely tell you from first-hand experience,

00:01:38.480 Frances has a great group of students, staff, and faculty over at Mount Royal University

00:01:42.660 who are dedicated to creating a rational space on campus.

00:01:45.820 And back when I was a graduate student at Wilfrid Laurier University in Waterloo, Ontario in 2017-2018,

00:01:53.780 I ran a club called the Laurier Society for Open Inquiry,

00:01:57.560 and Frances was one of our speakers in May 2018.

00:02:00.920 She spoke on the question of,

00:02:03.300 does university indigenization threaten open inquiry?

00:02:06.400 And Wilfrid Laurier actually charged us about $5,300 in security fees to host Frances.

00:02:13.220 There was, indeed, a protest outside the building.

00:02:15.760 And I think my favorite memory, actually, from running that student club for the year

00:02:20.060 was seeing the Marxist protesters yelling at Frances about how the working class needs to rise up.

00:02:27.000 And Frances was trying to engage in a dialogue with these protesters,

00:02:30.520 but, you know, of course they're trying to drown her out.

00:02:32.640 But Frances, what she was yelling across to them was,

00:02:35.880 I agree with you!

00:02:37.360 Because I believe Frances herself supports socialist policies.

00:02:41.540 We might be going into that later in this podcast.

00:02:44.480 So, let's get into why Frances, a university professor who supports free speech,

00:02:49.720 open inquiry, rational discussion, and rigorous research,

00:02:53.240 is controversial enough to be inspiring masked protesters

00:02:56.360 and a $5,300 security fee to speak at a university.

00:03:00.800 Frances, when did this all start?

00:03:02.640 Why do you get protested?

00:03:04.480 And why do you get accused of spreading hate speech and the like?

00:03:09.700 It's an interesting question.

00:03:11.860 The first time I actually had this occur was in 2008.

00:03:17.580 And this was before Disrobing the Aboriginal Industry came out

00:03:20.620 when I was giving a presentation at the Canadian Political Science Association in Vancouver.

00:03:26.040 And what occurred at that presentation was that a political scientist yelled at me during the presentation

00:03:34.180 and screamed at me,

00:03:35.820 why do you hate Indigenous people?

00:03:38.300 And I asked the chair to restore order.

00:03:41.680 It was quite a confrontational session.

00:03:44.320 And I thought this professor was completely out of line in what she was doing.

00:03:50.920 And I just went back to my work and I found out after the fact that a group of political scientists

00:03:57.540 who belong to the Women's Caucus of the Canadian Political Science Association

00:04:02.240 were actually contemplating on some kind of listserv

00:04:06.960 as to whether or not to have me charged under hate speech

00:04:11.020 with respect to what I was presenting at the session,

00:04:14.680 which was essentially about whether Indigenous theories and methodologies

00:04:20.260 were rigorous enough to contribute to the discipline of political science.

00:04:25.880 So it was quite an academic argument that I was making,

00:04:29.960 but it was seen as being hateful by many of the political scientists there.

00:04:35.020 So that gives you a bit of a sense of the kind of environment

00:04:40.100 which many are operating in right now.

00:04:44.540 And so that was the beginning of that sort of activity.

00:04:48.260 It's kind of continued on, on and off, up until today.

00:04:54.120 It started to become very, very serious, I guess, in around 2016

00:05:00.980 because of the indigenization initiative

00:05:04.720 and the demand that Indigenous perspectives, worldviews, ways of knowing

00:05:11.240 should be valued at Canadian universities.

00:05:16.340 So that's now become institutionalized.

00:05:19.220 It was emerging in 2008.

00:05:21.200 And now with indigenization, it's become institutionalized.

00:05:26.100 So it's very, very difficult for anyone to be able to criticize

00:05:29.180 the perspectives that are being put forward by Indigenous people

00:05:33.220 because that's seen as being demeaning to Indigenous people,

00:05:38.280 an attempt to oppress Indigenous people.

00:05:41.060 So that kind of environment is what creates the climate

00:05:44.360 whereby it becomes very, very difficult for anyone

00:05:47.060 to challenge what's being put forward at universities today.

00:05:52.520 Yeah, I believe you're one of the very few voices out there

00:05:55.600 that is pushing back against mandated Indigenous land acknowledgements,

00:05:59.680 for example, pushing back against indigenization initiatives

00:06:02.700 at universities.

00:06:03.400 So you've mentioned kind of how they can stifle discussion.

00:06:06.540 Do you have any other concerns when it comes to the rise

00:06:09.040 of land acknowledgements and university indigenization programs?

00:06:12.040 Yeah, so the land acknowledgements, I've been discussing them

00:06:17.780 at Mount Royal for a number of years now.

00:06:22.820 The main issue with them, well, there's a number of issues,

00:06:25.740 but the first thing is that I completely understand

00:06:29.880 why someone might have that political perspective.

00:06:32.860 So they think that it's important to recognize Indigenous peoples

00:06:37.860 in inhabiting these traditional territories.

00:06:42.940 They have perspectives on decolonization.

00:06:45.280 So, you know, that is a fundamental part of academic freedom,

00:06:49.580 freedom of expression, to put forward your support for that

00:06:54.080 in whatever context that you want to.

00:06:57.020 The difficulty comes when the university has a mandated

00:07:01.080 territorial land acknowledgement and makes it appear

00:07:05.360 as if this territorial land acknowledgement is something

00:07:08.660 that all people agree with.

00:07:12.180 And this happened at Mount Royal University.

00:07:15.160 The president at the time, David Dougherty, said to us,

00:07:19.560 and I remember it very clearly,

00:07:21.520 we're not going to have any discussion about this

00:07:24.400 because it's just the right thing to do.

00:07:27.380 And I was absolutely amazed by him saying that

00:07:33.280 because universities is where we try to decide

00:07:37.880 what the right thing to do is.

00:07:39.680 The right thing to do is an area of contestation.

00:07:43.420 And by him saying that, he was making an official position

00:07:47.680 as to what was quote unquote right.

00:07:51.420 And in my view, this is politically correct totalitarianism,

00:07:55.720 which is people decide what is right.

00:07:59.200 You are told that this is right.

00:08:01.340 If you disagree with this, then you suffer all sorts of

00:08:05.200 punishments of various kinds.

00:08:07.920 They might be official or they might just be,

00:08:10.360 you're looked upon as a immoral person

00:08:13.240 who's trying to oppress others and so on.

00:08:15.700 So that's the big issue in terms of the official nature of it.

00:08:19.920 And personally, I oppose the territorial land acknowledgements

00:08:23.500 because politically, I don't agree with the framework

00:08:27.660 out of which they arise,

00:08:29.860 which is the idea that indigenous people

00:08:33.340 are the original landowners.

00:08:36.200 Everyone else is a settler.

00:08:39.060 And this sets up a situation whereby people feel

00:08:45.340 that they almost have a status,

00:08:49.680 another status, a subordinate status

00:08:52.260 to the indigenous landowners.

00:08:54.940 And I think that it gives the wrong impression

00:08:58.280 to indigenous people because many of my colleagues

00:09:02.140 are doing this because they just think

00:09:04.200 that it's a great way symbolically

00:09:06.700 to recognize indigenous people.

00:09:08.820 When, if you look at some of the things

00:09:11.220 that indigenous people say,

00:09:12.500 it's really the idea that they are the landowners

00:09:15.700 and that non-indigenous people are the guests.

00:09:19.720 And so there's bound to be misunderstandings

00:09:22.740 that are going to arise from this.

00:09:24.040 And then indigenous people are going to be very angry

00:09:25.920 when they find out that many people

00:09:28.000 have been doing this just to symbolically recognize

00:09:32.060 indigenous people and might even see it

00:09:33.880 as a manipulative strategy.

00:09:36.080 And the real big issue with indigenous,

00:09:41.180 non-indigenous relations is the serious social problems

00:09:45.360 and deprivation that exists

00:09:47.700 in these isolated indigenous communities.

00:09:49.820 That's really what we should be concerned about.

00:09:52.140 And that is really what territorial land acknowledgements

00:09:55.080 are somehow pretending to address.

00:09:56.720 And it makes no difference to isolated indigenous communities

00:10:00.760 as to whether or not people symbolically recognize

00:10:05.560 that they inhabited the land first.

00:10:07.820 So I think it's a distraction

00:10:09.420 from trying to actually address

00:10:11.480 the serious social conditions

00:10:13.700 that exist in indigenous communities.

00:10:16.960 Yeah, I think that's a great point.

00:10:19.320 And then if I can jump in,

00:10:20.660 just, I mean, these indigenous land acknowledgements,

00:10:23.200 there are many examples of them being mandated.

00:10:25.620 I mean, at Wilfrid Laurier University,

00:10:27.600 the English department said that every single syllabus

00:10:30.780 for every course in the English department

00:10:32.580 had to have the land acknowledgement

00:10:34.460 on the top of the syllabus.

00:10:36.780 And then this isn't only happening in universities,

00:10:39.200 it's happening in public schools too.

00:10:41.280 So the Toronto District School Board,

00:10:42.740 they do a land acknowledgement

00:10:44.540 over the announcement at school.

00:10:47.100 I think it might be,

00:10:48.820 I don't know if it's every morning,

00:10:50.200 maybe once a week in the morning.

00:10:52.440 But so, Frances, you've said kind of

00:10:55.560 some of your positions on these issues.

00:10:58.460 What is, how are you treated in general

00:11:02.140 by your academic colleagues for saying these things?

00:11:04.560 So one person yelled at you in 2008 that,

00:11:07.100 you know, why do you hate indigenous people?

00:11:08.860 And I mean, it sounds like you have,

00:11:10.920 actually, you are concerned about

00:11:12.840 the living conditions and things.

00:11:14.280 You just don't bother with,

00:11:15.940 let's say, superficial matters.

00:11:18.880 So what other kinds of feedback,

00:11:21.620 what other kinds of reactions are you encountering?

00:11:23.780 Yeah, so I've been interacting with people

00:11:28.080 quite a lot, actually, over the last few years.

00:11:31.320 Much of this, of course, is not said to my face,

00:11:34.460 which is, of course, is a problem,

00:11:36.160 because then we cannot really openly discuss

00:11:38.700 many of these differences of opinion which exist.

00:11:42.320 Generally, I think most people who are critical of me,

00:11:49.060 either they try to smear my reputation

00:11:52.280 with accusations of racism,

00:11:55.900 so, and that's a tactic, as far as I can tell,

00:11:58.740 to really stop discussion,

00:12:00.540 because people are afraid of being called a racist.

00:12:03.600 So if that becomes one of the consequences

00:12:07.040 of speaking critically about what's occurring,

00:12:09.740 people are going to be very reluctant

00:12:11.180 to be able to enter into the conversation.

00:12:14.980 So that's sort of one tact that's taken.

00:12:18.940 The other is the idea that what you're saying is hurtful,

00:12:24.080 and I'm encountering that more and more now.

00:12:26.880 So it's recognized that indigenous people

00:12:30.520 have suffered terrible treatment historically,

00:12:33.180 and many people see the way to respond to this

00:12:37.460 is to generally get out of the way

00:12:41.360 and leave it up to indigenous people

00:12:45.120 to say what it is that is wrong with society.

00:12:49.720 And if you sort of start to question

00:12:52.840 what an indigenous person is saying,

00:12:55.360 this shows that you're being disrespectful

00:12:57.980 to indigenous people,

00:12:59.840 because you're not really giving them

00:13:03.900 control over the conversation.

00:13:07.020 And I am very opposed to that approach.

00:13:10.840 I think that it really is harmful

00:13:14.960 to indigenous people, in fact,

00:13:17.520 because how one learns,

00:13:20.340 how one grows as a person,

00:13:23.340 and in terms of your ideas,

00:13:25.040 is by being challenged.

00:13:27.660 That's really, you cannot hone your ideas.

00:13:30.640 You cannot become more knowledgeable,

00:13:33.160 gain better understanding without being challenged.

00:13:36.440 And so this is going to have a very,

00:13:37.760 very destructive impact on indigenous people

00:13:40.520 if they are just patronized all the time,

00:13:44.460 which is what I see happening.

00:13:46.000 And this really is one of the main problems

00:13:49.560 with the indigenization initiative,

00:13:53.700 is that I can really get a sense that

00:13:56.640 as soon as you start to question anything

00:13:59.060 that is being argued,

00:14:00.680 you come up against this idea

00:14:02.700 that you are somehow disrespecting indigenous people.

00:14:08.180 Right.

00:14:08.880 And then when you were talking about

00:14:10.740 the accusations of racism,

00:14:12.480 I remembered it was either when it was your event

00:14:15.540 or my event where we had each other invited

00:14:18.440 where a professor from Mount Royal,

00:14:20.620 I think he called you a pathetic racist.

00:14:23.420 You know, this is one of your colleagues.

00:14:25.060 And he called me, what was it,

00:14:26.620 some sort of white nationalist sympathizer or something.

00:14:30.420 So that's what's happening.

00:14:32.660 Yes.

00:14:33.020 So that's the extreme end of it.

00:14:35.000 You know, most professors don't resort to that level.

00:14:38.480 But there definitely is a feeling

00:14:43.680 that it's inappropriate to question things

00:14:47.560 that something that an indigenous person says.

00:14:51.580 And this is one of the big problems with indigenization.

00:14:54.340 So I've been at a number of events now

00:14:57.280 where I've gone and listened to someone giving a presentation,

00:15:01.800 an indigenous person giving a presentation

00:15:03.760 on something to do with indigenizing part of the curriculum.

00:15:09.280 And there's actually been three which stand out in my mind.

00:15:13.780 One was an elder who was invited

00:15:17.180 to give a talk on indigenous medicine.

00:15:20.620 Another situation just happened recently,

00:15:25.180 which was about star knowledge,

00:15:28.920 something to do with changing astronomy

00:15:30.400 or contributing to astronomy classes.

00:15:32.860 And then there was another case for Mount Royal

00:15:41.720 when we were talking about indigenizing a science course

00:15:44.380 and an elder was speaking there.

00:15:48.360 And in terms of the first kind about the indigenous medicine,

00:15:51.980 someone asked a question from the audience and asked,

00:15:55.320 what do you do about gut problems in children?

00:15:58.340 So stomach problems in children.

00:15:59.900 And the elder responded,

00:16:02.700 you rub corn pollen on the child's feet

00:16:06.160 and you do a sunrise ceremony.

00:16:08.340 That's how you address those problems

00:16:10.040 in terms of indigenous medicine.

00:16:12.840 In terms of Kahete's talk,

00:16:15.500 there were all sorts of spiritual beliefs

00:16:17.820 about the stars that were presented,

00:16:20.340 that happened.

00:16:21.320 And then in terms of the other case

00:16:25.220 of indigenizing the biology course,

00:16:28.120 the elder gave as one of the examples

00:16:29.980 of indigenous knowledge

00:16:31.520 was that when the trees come out of dormancy

00:16:35.340 in the spring,

00:16:37.260 the reason why they do that

00:16:39.060 is because the birds are singing to the trees.

00:16:42.600 And this was going to be taught

00:16:44.400 in a camp environment

00:16:46.420 where this elder was going to be teaching

00:16:48.020 biology students.

00:16:49.940 And in all of these cases,

00:16:51.760 you know,

00:16:52.060 I was there asking questions

00:16:53.700 and I saw a whole bunch of colleagues

00:16:56.320 there from the science,

00:16:57.840 the faculty of science,

00:16:59.460 who know very well

00:17:01.180 that this is not knowledge.

00:17:03.960 This is at best folklore

00:17:06.000 and, you know,

00:17:07.500 sorts of very, very, you know,

00:17:09.460 minor observations

00:17:11.180 that aren't going to contribute

00:17:13.540 to the science discipline,

00:17:16.340 disciplines in science,

00:17:17.440 or their spiritual beliefs,

00:17:20.040 which are actually contrary

00:17:22.440 to what is known.

00:17:24.320 But no one says anything about this.

00:17:27.140 Right.

00:17:27.400 I think along with it.

00:17:28.980 Yeah.

00:17:29.220 I think a point you've made before

00:17:30.680 is universities otherwise

00:17:32.880 are quite secular,

00:17:33.900 but then we have this one exception

00:17:36.260 of indigenous spirituality

00:17:37.920 and folklore,

00:17:38.480 as you were saying,

00:17:39.200 kind of being allowed

00:17:40.440 to be taught

00:17:41.380 as the status quo.

00:17:42.580 Yes.

00:17:43.160 And what we're seeing

00:17:44.600 is actually universities

00:17:45.540 are becoming less secular.

00:17:47.820 The indigenization aspect

00:17:49.280 is one part of that,

00:17:50.340 but also we are coming up against

00:17:52.640 very seriously,

00:17:53.560 and this is something

00:17:54.100 we can talk about

00:17:54.900 with respect to

00:17:55.460 the Rational Space Network,

00:17:57.300 is Islamic ideology

00:17:59.140 is becoming more and more

00:18:01.620 integrated with respect

00:18:04.740 to the university

00:18:05.520 to the point

00:18:06.660 it's becoming very,

00:18:07.520 very difficult

00:18:08.060 to make any criticisms

00:18:09.520 of Islam.

00:18:10.520 So I'm not sure

00:18:11.780 where this began,

00:18:13.560 but certainly indigenization

00:18:15.180 has been one of the avenues

00:18:18.060 whereby secularism

00:18:20.420 is under threat.

00:18:22.200 And it used to be,

00:18:23.300 it would have been unheard of

00:18:24.660 for a prayer to be held

00:18:26.600 at a beginning of an event.

00:18:28.660 That would never have happened.

00:18:30.680 And now it's happening

00:18:31.860 all the time.

00:18:32.700 And, you know,

00:18:34.260 I've been discussing this

00:18:35.320 with my colleagues

00:18:36.220 on the closed Facebook group

00:18:38.080 and, you know,

00:18:39.760 sort of mentioning these things

00:18:41.520 and saying this shouldn't

00:18:42.420 be happening

00:18:43.060 and people who would not

00:18:45.340 support that

00:18:46.040 for any other

00:18:46.980 type of religious

00:18:48.500 activity

00:18:51.160 in a public setting.

00:18:53.500 Like, this is not to say

00:18:54.140 that people can't

00:18:55.500 engage in prayers

00:18:56.520 or whatever they want to do

00:18:57.840 at the university

00:18:58.740 if they organize it

00:18:59.820 for that purpose.

00:19:01.200 And people can go

00:19:02.380 if they want to.

00:19:03.700 But that's not

00:19:04.380 what's happening.

00:19:05.600 You're going to,

00:19:07.060 for example,

00:19:07.640 the president

00:19:08.280 of the university

00:19:09.240 when he was being invited,

00:19:11.640 he had just become

00:19:12.880 the new president.

00:19:13.820 We all went there

00:19:14.560 to listen to his,

00:19:15.720 you know,

00:19:16.040 the welcoming of him.

00:19:17.340 And what do we have

00:19:17.940 at the beginning?

00:19:18.820 We have an indigenous prayer.

00:19:21.020 And it's like,

00:19:21.720 why is there

00:19:22.400 an indigenous prayer

00:19:23.760 as part of

00:19:25.560 the welcoming

00:19:26.480 of the president?

00:19:28.360 That makes no sense.

00:19:29.460 It has nothing to do

00:19:30.500 with

00:19:30.880 the functioning

00:19:32.080 of the university

00:19:32.900 in terms of

00:19:34.020 including everyone

00:19:35.020 and the academic mandate

00:19:37.120 of the university.

00:19:38.380 This is completely

00:19:40.180 at odds

00:19:41.820 with what it is

00:19:42.520 that we're trying

00:19:42.940 to do at the university.

00:19:44.680 Right.

00:19:45.040 Yeah.

00:19:45.760 But you are,

00:19:46.900 you know,

00:19:47.720 again,

00:19:48.180 pushing back a bit.

00:19:49.080 So you're the founder

00:19:49.740 of the Rational Space Network

00:19:51.180 at the Mount Royal

00:19:51.920 University campus.

00:19:53.680 Can you talk a bit

00:19:54.400 about the work you do,

00:19:55.540 your mandate,

00:19:56.340 what events have you hosted,

00:19:57.660 what events are coming up?

00:19:59.360 Yes.

00:19:59.660 So this is becoming

00:20:01.160 more established now.

00:20:02.940 I believe I first

00:20:05.020 thought about it,

00:20:05.800 as you mentioned,

00:20:07.260 after hearing,

00:20:08.780 and it actually started off

00:20:09.780 with positive space.

00:20:11.060 That was the beginning.

00:20:11.900 And now it's morphed

00:20:13.300 into safe space.

00:20:14.300 And I was sort of

00:20:17.420 a little bit nervous

00:20:18.260 about how this

00:20:19.320 was all unfolding

00:20:21.060 because it seemed to me

00:20:22.700 that at a university,

00:20:24.940 critical thinking,

00:20:26.820 the academic mandate

00:20:28.920 is key

00:20:29.860 and all these kinds

00:20:31.460 of feel good,

00:20:33.080 we've got to celebrate

00:20:34.000 this and celebrate

00:20:34.920 that in terms

00:20:36.000 of various identities,

00:20:37.740 was in the end

00:20:39.260 going to challenge

00:20:41.140 what we were able

00:20:42.720 to discuss

00:20:43.340 at a university.

00:20:44.000 So I was a bit nervous

00:20:45.020 about these initiatives.

00:20:46.880 And so I sent out

00:20:48.440 an email in 2016

00:20:49.860 just seeing if I could

00:20:51.160 get some people together

00:20:52.320 to sort of form

00:20:53.260 a loosely organized group.

00:20:55.280 It didn't really go anywhere

00:20:56.660 for quite a while.

00:20:58.640 And then I guess

00:20:59.560 it was last year

00:21:00.400 I decided to,

00:21:01.500 you know,

00:21:02.120 become more,

00:21:03.340 you know,

00:21:04.880 involved in trying

00:21:05.780 to do something

00:21:06.560 because of all the issues

00:21:08.420 that were starting

00:21:09.000 to emerge.

00:21:09.600 And so there was

00:21:12.040 a number of people

00:21:12.700 who signed

00:21:13.360 what was called

00:21:14.140 the Rational Space Declaration,

00:21:16.540 which is on our Facebook page

00:21:18.380 and also on our Twitter account.

00:21:20.220 And they sort of

00:21:21.080 basically had to look

00:21:21.880 at those principles

00:21:22.740 and see if they agreed

00:21:24.700 with them.

00:21:25.260 And they're generally

00:21:25.940 talking about secularism,

00:21:27.760 the importance of having

00:21:28.860 a secular environment,

00:21:30.540 the importance of being able

00:21:31.900 to discuss contentious issues,

00:21:35.280 the importance of the university

00:21:36.740 not taking a political position

00:21:38.380 on things,

00:21:39.720 open inquiry being very important,

00:21:42.140 critical thinking

00:21:43.140 and evidence-based decision making.

00:21:47.100 And these are all specified

00:21:48.080 in the declaration.

00:21:49.340 See if I could get

00:21:50.480 some people to sign it.

00:21:52.040 I think I got around 15 people

00:21:54.080 or so to sign it.

00:21:55.640 And then, you know,

00:21:56.940 we started to think,

00:21:58.060 okay, what should we do?

00:21:59.300 And we organized

00:22:00.960 what we called

00:22:01.860 the Critical Thinking Series,

00:22:03.600 which held a number

00:22:05.940 of events

00:22:06.700 in the last academic year.

00:22:10.360 Israel-Palestine,

00:22:12.580 your event,

00:22:13.560 which was about

00:22:14.040 vetting speakers.

00:22:16.260 There was also one

00:22:17.600 on capitalism,

00:22:18.600 whether capitalism

00:22:19.240 was sustainable.

00:22:20.500 And then we had

00:22:21.160 a very contentious event

00:22:22.520 with Megan Murphy

00:22:23.900 and Julie Ray Goldstein

00:22:26.300 on does trans activism

00:22:29.640 negatively impact

00:22:31.100 women's rights?

00:22:31.980 And it was that last event

00:22:34.220 which really brought out

00:22:35.880 the different views

00:22:38.220 on freedom of expression

00:22:40.180 on campus

00:22:40.940 because that was

00:22:41.780 very, very strongly opposed

00:22:43.580 by intersectional

00:22:45.900 feminist elements

00:22:47.360 on campus

00:22:48.260 who were saying

00:22:50.020 that it was hatred,

00:22:51.980 that it amounted

00:22:54.140 to denying

00:22:54.920 the humanity

00:22:55.800 of trans students.

00:22:57.160 It was denying the...

00:22:58.740 And we're still suffering

00:23:00.060 the fallout

00:23:00.740 from that event

00:23:03.380 because there still

00:23:05.080 is a large...

00:23:05.800 Well, I'm not sure

00:23:06.280 how many,

00:23:06.780 but probably around

00:23:08.160 20 professors

00:23:09.540 who still think

00:23:11.520 that that event

00:23:12.260 should never be held

00:23:13.340 and are,

00:23:14.180 to some extent,

00:23:14.780 mobilizing

00:23:15.620 the trans activist

00:23:17.680 element

00:23:18.360 within the student body

00:23:19.740 to see the professors

00:23:21.920 who were involved

00:23:22.580 with that event

00:23:23.320 as harming students.

00:23:25.240 And this is a really

00:23:26.180 serious problem

00:23:27.260 because if I'm harming students,

00:23:30.980 then I probably

00:23:32.560 should be subject

00:23:33.400 to some kind

00:23:34.260 of disciplinary process.

00:23:36.140 And that's kind of

00:23:36.720 always hanging over

00:23:37.920 the head of the people

00:23:39.880 who are associated

00:23:40.440 with rational space,

00:23:41.640 whether there'll be

00:23:42.640 some kind of mobilization

00:23:43.960 that will spark

00:23:45.220 a disciplinary process.

00:23:47.660 So that was last year.

00:23:48.400 It was very, very good.

00:23:49.160 The events were excellent.

00:23:50.900 They were all videotaped.

00:23:52.160 They all can be watched

00:23:52.920 on YouTube.

00:23:53.440 This year,

00:23:55.100 we're discussing

00:23:56.240 the Chicago Principles

00:23:57.760 on November 1st.

00:23:58.980 So that's going to be

00:24:00.080 an event that's going

00:24:00.840 to have both the supporters

00:24:02.380 and the opponents

00:24:03.220 of the Chicago Principles

00:24:04.460 have a discussion.

00:24:06.740 And then we have

00:24:09.140 Anthony Magna Bosco

00:24:11.640 who does what's called

00:24:12.800 street epistemology,

00:24:14.360 which is a very interesting

00:24:15.380 method of asking questions

00:24:17.160 to try to figure out

00:24:18.720 why people hold

00:24:20.080 the beliefs that they do.

00:24:22.180 And we're going to examine

00:24:23.420 belief in God.

00:24:24.540 Why is it that people

00:24:25.620 believe in God?

00:24:26.760 And then we're hoping

00:24:27.740 to have an event

00:24:29.100 on indigenization

00:24:30.240 that it's going to include

00:24:31.580 both science and arts

00:24:34.080 faculty members

00:24:35.560 probably in March.

00:24:38.680 And that's the other event

00:24:39.980 to examine whether,

00:24:41.320 you know,

00:24:41.820 indigenous ways of knowing

00:24:43.260 enhance the curriculum,

00:24:45.720 those kinds of conversations.

00:24:46.860 So those are the events

00:24:48.140 that are planned this year.

00:24:50.080 And they're all

00:24:51.260 on our Facebook.

00:24:52.220 Well, we have the

00:24:53.060 Chicago Principles one

00:24:54.480 is on the Facebook page.

00:24:57.280 But as soon as we get

00:24:58.180 things solidified

00:24:59.240 for those other events,

00:25:01.440 we will be posting

00:25:03.180 information on them.

00:25:04.360 So they're always open

00:25:05.140 to the public,

00:25:05.840 free and open

00:25:06.320 to the public.

00:25:07.760 I think they're great events

00:25:09.100 because what we try to do

00:25:10.400 is we try to have

00:25:11.720 the different sides

00:25:12.700 of the position

00:25:13.560 being expressed.

00:25:15.440 So many people

00:25:17.280 in the Rational Space Network

00:25:18.320 aren't really sure

00:25:19.320 what to think

00:25:19.880 about these issues.

00:25:20.880 So the idea is

00:25:22.100 just to create a space

00:25:23.320 whereby the discussion

00:25:24.500 can unfold,

00:25:26.060 which I think

00:25:26.780 has not been

00:25:27.960 very possible

00:25:29.820 in the past.

00:25:30.540 And we're hoping

00:25:31.400 that we'll be able

00:25:32.560 to now show

00:25:33.320 that, you know,

00:25:34.220 contentious events,

00:25:35.360 issues can be discussed

00:25:36.820 and you can set it up

00:25:39.320 in a way

00:25:39.760 whereby it's not just

00:25:41.440 like you're promoting

00:25:42.620 one of these

00:25:43.960 contentious ideas.

00:25:44.980 You're wanting it

00:25:45.980 to be challenged

00:25:46.620 and to see

00:25:47.360 if there's any truth

00:25:48.720 to what's being claimed.

00:25:50.480 Right, absolutely.

00:25:51.340 And yeah,

00:25:51.760 those are all great topics.

00:25:52.960 And then I think

00:25:53.540 I also saw you

00:25:54.480 are having a little

00:25:55.520 book release event.

00:25:57.240 That's true.

00:25:57.920 Yeah, so your next book,

00:26:00.340 it's called

00:26:00.640 Separate But Unequal,

00:26:01.960 How Parallelist Ideology

00:26:03.520 Conceals Indigenous Dependency.

00:26:05.440 Can you give us

00:26:05.940 a bit of a preview?

00:26:07.000 Maybe you could include

00:26:07.940 a definition

00:26:08.600 of parallelism in there.

00:26:10.580 Yeah, sure.

00:26:11.100 So on November 6th

00:26:12.740 at Mount Royal University,

00:26:13.960 from 5 to 7 p.m.

00:26:16.060 That's when the book

00:26:16.840 is going to be launched.

00:26:18.760 And so I'm really

00:26:19.920 looking forward to that.

00:26:21.700 This book has been

00:26:23.260 researched,

00:26:25.240 rewritten

00:26:25.720 over the last 10 years.

00:26:29.640 Massive amounts

00:26:30.660 of research

00:26:31.720 have gone into it

00:26:32.820 to try to

00:26:33.960 address the

00:26:35.440 criticisms

00:26:36.300 of the position

00:26:37.840 that's put forward

00:26:38.820 in the book,

00:26:39.340 which is very controversial.

00:26:40.380 and to some extent

00:26:42.300 follows from my dissertation.

00:26:43.540 So the book

00:26:44.660 is based upon

00:26:45.260 my dissertation,

00:26:46.060 which was completed

00:26:47.060 in 2006.

00:26:49.020 And I've essentially

00:26:50.040 been rewriting it

00:26:51.200 to address

00:26:53.380 criticisms

00:26:54.640 ever since

00:26:55.320 and also to

00:26:56.020 really tighten it up.

00:26:57.300 So the book

00:26:57.960 has really

00:26:58.840 benefited

00:27:00.420 from

00:27:01.000 all the criticisms

00:27:02.320 that have been made

00:27:03.460 from various people

00:27:04.940 over the years.

00:27:05.640 and basically

00:27:07.260 the book

00:27:07.980 is talking about

00:27:09.400 why it is

00:27:11.640 that indigenous

00:27:12.240 people

00:27:13.040 became dependent.

00:27:15.480 So that means

00:27:16.760 that dependent

00:27:17.400 on transfers

00:27:18.140 of various kinds

00:27:19.320 and

00:27:20.600 it connects

00:27:22.320 this

00:27:23.660 consequence

00:27:25.960 to

00:27:26.940 capitalism,

00:27:28.560 developments

00:27:29.060 that have happened

00:27:29.680 in capitalism.

00:27:30.740 So the argument

00:27:31.380 is that

00:27:32.140 capitalism

00:27:33.540 in its early stages,

00:27:34.720 which was

00:27:35.580 the fur trade

00:27:36.160 was a mercantilist

00:27:37.360 type of capitalist

00:27:38.320 process,

00:27:39.220 which

00:27:40.280 really was

00:27:42.120 extensive development.

00:27:43.840 So it just

00:27:44.420 expanded across

00:27:45.360 the country

00:27:46.000 and didn't really

00:27:47.680 dramatically change

00:27:49.140 the nature

00:27:49.720 of indigenous

00:27:50.780 societies

00:27:51.480 because it was

00:27:52.400 expansive

00:27:52.980 in its character.

00:27:54.160 With the transition

00:27:55.560 to industrial

00:27:56.460 capitalism,

00:27:57.800 which really

00:27:58.560 required intensive

00:27:59.580 forms of development,

00:28:00.760 so changing

00:28:01.320 the labor process

00:28:02.260 to make the labor

00:28:03.080 more productive

00:28:04.120 and this

00:28:05.580 became much

00:28:06.460 more difficult

00:28:07.180 for cultures

00:28:09.400 which are associated

00:28:10.360 with hunting

00:28:10.980 and gathering,

00:28:11.680 the hunting

00:28:11.960 and gathering

00:28:12.560 horticultural

00:28:13.260 mode of production.

00:28:14.720 And it was

00:28:15.220 this difficulty

00:28:16.120 in making

00:28:16.700 the transition

00:28:17.560 and the

00:28:18.480 characteristics

00:28:19.020 of indigenous

00:28:19.840 culture,

00:28:20.680 the indigenous

00:28:21.260 cultural features

00:28:22.160 which are associated

00:28:22.980 with hunting

00:28:24.020 and gathering

00:28:24.600 and horticulturalism,

00:28:26.380 which made

00:28:27.220 it difficult

00:28:28.200 for indigenous

00:28:28.720 people to enter

00:28:29.720 into the labor

00:28:30.240 force and these

00:28:31.760 are difficulties

00:28:32.520 that still exist

00:28:33.560 today with respect

00:28:34.980 to the isolated

00:28:36.060 indigenous communities

00:28:37.840 and that's very,

00:28:38.480 very important

00:28:38.900 to point out

00:28:39.720 because usually

00:28:40.740 the indigenous

00:28:41.260 people that you

00:28:42.120 hear from

00:28:43.120 in the media

00:28:43.820 are indigenous

00:28:45.100 people who are

00:28:45.840 completely integrated

00:28:47.180 in modern society.

00:28:49.100 They're not the

00:28:49.660 isolated indigenous

00:28:50.760 people who are

00:28:51.680 suffering terribly

00:28:52.580 in the communities

00:28:53.480 who really need

00:28:55.900 to have some

00:28:56.400 kind of developmental

00:28:57.080 strategy to be

00:28:58.320 able to enable

00:28:59.140 them to be able

00:29:00.600 to participate

00:29:01.300 in modern society.

00:29:03.300 And so in terms

00:29:03.880 of parallelism,

00:29:04.920 this is the ideology

00:29:05.900 that has come about

00:29:07.040 since the Royal

00:29:08.760 Commission on

00:29:09.400 Aboriginal Peoples

00:29:10.480 was, the report

00:29:12.040 for the Royal

00:29:12.520 Commission on

00:29:13.300 Aboriginal Peoples

00:29:13.940 was released

00:29:14.780 in 1996

00:29:15.640 and my dissertation

00:29:17.540 was actually

00:29:18.360 on the Royal

00:29:19.440 Commission,

00:29:19.960 the arguments

00:29:20.500 of the Royal

00:29:20.900 Commission on

00:29:21.360 Aboriginal Peoples

00:29:22.100 and this is

00:29:23.500 where we saw

00:29:24.320 the ideology

00:29:25.320 of parallelism

00:29:26.520 become,

00:29:27.640 become firmly

00:29:28.560 established

00:29:29.340 in universities,

00:29:32.140 in the media

00:29:34.980 and so on

00:29:35.820 and what

00:29:36.260 parallelism is,

00:29:37.520 is this

00:29:39.060 nation-to-nation

00:29:40.240 type of way

00:29:41.680 of viewing

00:29:42.140 indigenous,

00:29:42.880 non-indigenous

00:29:43.380 relations

00:29:44.080 which is

00:29:44.900 you have

00:29:45.860 indigenous nations

00:29:46.980 which are going

00:29:47.460 to be following

00:29:47.920 a particular path,

00:29:49.720 the Canadian

00:29:50.560 nation following

00:29:51.760 its own path,

00:29:52.800 they're going

00:29:53.100 to all have

00:29:53.660 their different

00:29:54.580 ways of doing

00:29:55.280 things and

00:29:55.960 and they're

00:29:56.340 really not

00:29:56.840 going to

00:29:57.260 interact at

00:29:58.760 any kind

00:29:59.180 of fundamental

00:29:59.760 level and

00:30:01.180 really what

00:30:02.420 parallelism says

00:30:03.640 is that the

00:30:04.140 reason why

00:30:04.580 indigenous people

00:30:05.320 became dependent

00:30:06.160 was because

00:30:07.340 their culture

00:30:08.040 was not

00:30:08.520 respected by

00:30:10.300 the dominant

00:30:11.080 society.

00:30:11.740 so if we

00:30:13.160 could just

00:30:13.720 learn to

00:30:14.300 respect

00:30:14.820 indigenous

00:30:15.240 culture,

00:30:16.200 then these

00:30:17.600 cultures would

00:30:18.100 become revitalized,

00:30:19.780 these nations

00:30:20.540 would be able to

00:30:21.560 rebuild themselves

00:30:22.520 and this would

00:30:23.540 then be able

00:30:25.180 to address

00:30:25.980 all the various

00:30:27.000 problems that

00:30:27.700 are plaguing

00:30:28.160 these isolated

00:30:29.440 communities.

00:30:30.160 and so the

00:30:31.200 book is really

00:30:32.120 criticizing that

00:30:33.280 ideological

00:30:34.000 perspective and

00:30:35.300 showing how

00:30:36.080 this ideology

00:30:38.260 is really

00:30:39.760 preventing us

00:30:40.720 from understanding

00:30:41.680 really the

00:30:42.580 main reason

00:30:43.500 why indigenous

00:30:44.160 people continue

00:30:45.060 to be dependent

00:30:45.760 which is that

00:30:46.920 the cultural

00:30:47.560 features that

00:30:48.380 are associated

00:30:48.960 with hunting

00:30:49.540 and gathering

00:30:50.240 in horticultural

00:30:50.900 societies are

00:30:52.200 less developed

00:30:53.140 than those of

00:30:54.420 modern nation

00:30:55.400 states and

00:30:56.400 because those

00:30:57.180 cultural

00:30:58.200 characteristics are

00:30:58.940 being retained,

00:31:00.160 it makes it

00:31:00.860 very very

00:31:01.180 difficult for

00:31:01.840 indigenous

00:31:02.180 people to

00:31:02.840 enter into

00:31:03.340 the labor

00:31:03.900 force,

00:31:04.580 for them to

00:31:05.400 participate in

00:31:06.400 modern political

00:31:07.240 processes and

00:31:08.820 probably most

00:31:09.560 significantly and

00:31:10.920 this kind of

00:31:11.600 comes up head

00:31:12.300 up against

00:31:13.080 indigenization is

00:31:15.060 that there is a

00:31:15.680 lack of

00:31:16.180 scientific education

00:31:18.000 in indigenous

00:31:19.740 cultures.

00:31:20.960 so in order for

00:31:21.540 indigenous people to

00:31:22.720 be able to

00:31:23.420 understand what's

00:31:25.320 happening in the

00:31:25.960 world,

00:31:26.880 scientific education

00:31:28.200 is required but

00:31:29.860 parallelist

00:31:30.700 ideology argues

00:31:32.220 that science is

00:31:34.220 a kind of a

00:31:35.100 colonialist kind

00:31:37.060 of method and

00:31:38.160 indigenous ways of

00:31:39.820 knowing is really

00:31:40.820 what's required in

00:31:42.420 indigenous societies

00:31:43.460 and that is a

00:31:45.100 very very destructive

00:31:46.040 type of thought

00:31:47.940 process that's going

00:31:48.900 on which is really

00:31:49.800 preventing any kind

00:31:51.960 of attempt to

00:31:52.800 address, to

00:31:54.300 fundamentally address

00:31:55.160 indigenous

00:31:55.560 dependency.

00:31:56.120 Okay, and I

00:31:58.800 recall, so

00:31:59.920 earlier in this

00:32:00.740 interview you

00:32:01.280 talked a bit

00:32:02.160 about this term

00:32:03.400 politically correct

00:32:04.540 totalitarians, which

00:32:06.180 I think you

00:32:07.100 prefer to use over

00:32:08.080 social justice

00:32:08.900 warriors, is that

00:32:09.700 right?

00:32:10.460 That's true and

00:32:11.300 the reason for

00:32:12.180 that, and this is a

00:32:13.400 major problem that

00:32:14.580 we are encountering

00:32:15.480 now in the

00:32:16.320 battles for free

00:32:17.560 speech across the

00:32:18.920 country, is that

00:32:21.200 people think that

00:32:22.560 the opponents of

00:32:24.160 free speech are

00:32:25.400 quote-unquote

00:32:26.220 left-wing, and

00:32:28.320 this has led the

00:32:30.040 free speech

00:32:30.880 movement to be

00:32:33.120 seen as right-wing,

00:32:34.520 and this is a

00:32:35.800 huge mistake.

00:32:38.060 You know, there's

00:32:38.540 nothing wrong with

00:32:39.360 social, you know,

00:32:40.260 pursuing social

00:32:40.960 justice, like I

00:32:41.960 would argue that

00:32:42.520 I'm trying to

00:32:43.780 pursue social

00:32:44.400 justice.

00:32:45.280 I'm trying to

00:32:45.960 ensure that

00:32:46.520 indigenous people

00:32:47.440 have access to

00:32:49.300 the same

00:32:49.880 resources and

00:32:51.500 services that

00:32:52.940 all people in

00:32:54.760 the world, in

00:32:55.360 fact, should

00:32:56.160 have access to.

00:32:57.360 So there's

00:32:57.600 nothing wrong

00:32:58.000 with pursuing

00:32:58.460 social justice.

00:32:59.940 The problem is

00:33:00.780 when people who

00:33:02.220 are doing this

00:33:03.160 say that their

00:33:04.580 way of doing

00:33:05.120 it is the

00:33:05.540 right way, and

00:33:07.020 everyone else

00:33:07.700 is evil, and

00:33:09.220 therefore those

00:33:10.500 people shouldn't

00:33:11.040 be allowed to

00:33:11.500 speak.

00:33:12.880 And in fact,

00:33:13.600 this kind of

00:33:14.100 idea came about

00:33:15.080 in the 1960s

00:33:16.280 with a theorist

00:33:17.640 by the name of

00:33:18.240 Herbert Marcuse,

00:33:19.900 who wrote

00:33:21.400 an article

00:33:22.040 called

00:33:23.120 Repressive

00:33:23.660 Tolerance, and

00:33:25.080 I think that's

00:33:25.580 the root of

00:33:26.160 this.

00:33:26.660 I'm not sure

00:33:28.080 if it is, but

00:33:28.820 I always hear

00:33:29.780 Marcuse brought

00:33:30.660 up in discussions

00:33:32.360 about this, and

00:33:33.300 it was a very,

00:33:34.560 very destructive

00:33:35.360 argument which

00:33:36.420 was being put

00:33:36.960 forward by him,

00:33:38.260 which was that

00:33:39.260 you had to

00:33:41.000 stop right-wing

00:33:42.500 ideas from being

00:33:43.640 expressed because

00:33:45.380 these right-wing

00:33:46.220 ideas would have

00:33:46.980 a destructive

00:33:47.620 effect on

00:33:49.080 society, and

00:33:50.800 therefore, and

00:33:52.260 of course, you

00:33:53.140 know, who's

00:33:53.640 going to decide

00:33:54.380 was not a

00:33:55.400 problem for

00:33:55.960 him because he

00:33:57.300 had this notion

00:33:58.200 that this was

00:33:58.760 just self-evident

00:33:59.620 as to what the

00:34:00.440 right ideas were

00:34:01.380 and what the

00:34:01.840 destructive ideas

00:34:02.920 were, so that

00:34:04.100 kind of notion.

00:34:04.920 And Marcuse, of

00:34:05.520 course, was part

00:34:05.960 of the Frankfurt

00:34:06.480 School, which

00:34:07.260 was the new

00:34:08.660 part of the

00:34:09.400 quote-unquote

00:34:09.800 new left, which

00:34:11.200 in my view is

00:34:12.840 not left-wing

00:34:13.640 at all, because

00:34:15.240 left-wing thought

00:34:16.880 historically was

00:34:18.120 in favor of

00:34:19.000 free speech,

00:34:19.820 because the

00:34:20.380 idea was that

00:34:21.480 that's the way

00:34:22.260 that you were

00:34:22.680 going to convince

00:34:23.320 people that

00:34:24.740 capitalism was

00:34:25.580 oppressive.

00:34:26.260 You would need

00:34:26.920 to have freedom

00:34:27.580 of expression to

00:34:28.480 be able to do

00:34:29.160 that, and it

00:34:29.780 was often, you

00:34:31.160 know, the

00:34:31.400 interests that

00:34:31.880 were associated

00:34:32.580 with capitalist

00:34:33.400 interests that

00:34:34.540 were trying to

00:34:35.140 shut down

00:34:35.720 speech.

00:34:37.100 But what

00:34:37.760 happened, I

00:34:38.260 guess, in the

00:34:38.660 1960s with

00:34:39.440 Marcuse and the

00:34:40.260 Frankfurt School

00:34:40.980 and so on is

00:34:42.320 that we saw

00:34:43.660 the emergence of

00:34:44.540 post-modern

00:34:45.160 relativism come on

00:34:46.460 the scene, because

00:34:48.320 the left was

00:34:49.460 sort of doubting

00:34:51.000 itself, and,

00:34:53.120 you know, the

00:34:53.480 now left-wing

00:34:54.520 thought really has

00:34:55.560 been taken over

00:34:56.440 by the university

00:34:57.200 system, which is

00:34:58.780 more concerned

00:34:59.540 about, you

00:35:00.840 know, who's

00:35:01.340 getting the

00:35:01.760 university jobs,

00:35:03.200 that's basically

00:35:04.240 what much of

00:35:04.860 this has to do

00:35:05.520 with, as

00:35:06.760 opposed to

00:35:07.480 trying to,

00:35:09.000 you know,

00:35:10.080 organize members

00:35:12.100 of the working

00:35:12.520 class so that

00:35:14.120 we can have a

00:35:15.360 society that

00:35:16.320 is able to

00:35:17.780 distribute

00:35:19.060 resources

00:35:19.760 equitably to

00:35:21.120 all people

00:35:21.900 around the

00:35:22.620 world.

00:35:22.920 So class, which

00:35:24.120 was the

00:35:24.380 foundations of

00:35:25.200 left-wing

00:35:25.580 thought, has

00:35:26.920 now been

00:35:27.440 completely

00:35:28.000 undermined by

00:35:30.300 what's called

00:35:30.960 intersectionality,

00:35:33.020 and I'd never

00:35:34.240 even heard of

00:35:34.780 intersectionality

00:35:35.680 until a couple

00:35:36.260 of years ago,

00:35:37.120 and now I'm

00:35:38.440 just starting to

00:35:39.200 hear about it

00:35:40.460 all over the

00:35:40.980 place, which

00:35:41.960 really reduces

00:35:42.960 class to just

00:35:44.180 one variable

00:35:45.100 amongst what

00:35:45.900 appears to

00:35:46.280 be hundreds,

00:35:48.060 you know,

00:35:48.540 religion and

00:35:49.440 age and

00:35:50.320 disability and

00:35:51.960 trans matters

00:35:54.100 and all these

00:35:56.080 different kinds of

00:35:56.800 factors, which

00:35:57.820 just completely

00:35:58.500 waters down any

00:35:59.760 sort of

00:36:00.080 understanding of

00:36:00.960 what the real

00:36:01.440 source of

00:36:01.880 conflict in

00:36:02.500 society is.

00:36:03.340 So, you know,

00:36:04.180 I really think

00:36:04.920 what's happened is

00:36:05.560 the left has

00:36:06.160 been taken over

00:36:06.920 by this post-modern

00:36:08.140 identity politics,

00:36:10.020 you know, kind of

00:36:11.840 ideology, and

00:36:13.640 then what happens

00:36:14.520 is people say,

00:36:15.580 well, these

00:36:16.140 left-wing people,

00:36:17.500 these are people

00:36:18.520 claiming to be

00:36:19.260 left-wing, are

00:36:20.440 complete totalitarians.

00:36:22.560 Well, I don't

00:36:23.540 want to be a part

00:36:24.260 of anything to do

00:36:25.020 with left-wing

00:36:25.960 kind of politics

00:36:27.220 because they're the

00:36:28.160 people who want to

00:36:28.820 stop people from

00:36:29.560 speaking all the

00:36:30.320 time, and they're

00:36:31.180 just, they just

00:36:31.860 seem to be these

00:36:32.600 really irrational

00:36:34.320 and authoritarian

00:36:36.620 types, when what

00:36:39.860 these people are

00:36:40.440 arguing for has

00:36:41.820 nothing to do with

00:36:42.760 left-wing thought

00:36:43.820 at all.

00:36:44.480 So, there's all

00:36:45.520 this confusion which

00:36:46.620 is existing.

00:36:47.400 So, you know, I

00:36:48.260 think what we

00:36:48.760 really need to do

00:36:49.680 is establish once

00:36:51.920 again that freedom

00:36:53.720 of expression is a

00:36:55.400 fundamental right

00:36:57.620 that people have.

00:36:59.500 If we stop people

00:37:00.720 from speaking and

00:37:02.000 being unable to

00:37:03.060 say what they

00:37:03.500 think is true,

00:37:04.500 we're never going

00:37:05.560 to be able to

00:37:06.280 figure out what

00:37:07.640 is the right way

00:37:08.920 to proceed with

00:37:09.980 respect to society.

00:37:11.080 So, I think

00:37:11.620 that's the major

00:37:12.220 battleground now

00:37:13.260 is to sort of

00:37:14.180 say, look, free

00:37:16.040 speech is not a

00:37:16.820 right-wing cause.

00:37:18.580 Free speech is a

00:37:20.320 human, is a

00:37:22.500 necessity for

00:37:23.480 human beings, and

00:37:24.760 in fact, it is

00:37:26.460 especially necessary

00:37:27.880 for people on the

00:37:28.900 left because it

00:37:30.440 is them who

00:37:31.660 really needs to

00:37:32.600 be able to

00:37:33.000 communicate with

00:37:34.220 large numbers of

00:37:34.920 people, and it's

00:37:35.800 only a matter of

00:37:36.260 time before the

00:37:38.040 crackdown comes

00:37:38.960 down upon people

00:37:39.900 who are trying to

00:37:40.820 advocate for a

00:37:42.380 more just and

00:37:43.340 equitable society.

00:37:45.520 Yeah, and I

00:37:46.360 think it's

00:37:46.700 interesting what you

00:37:47.320 said about Herbert

00:37:48.040 Marcuse.

00:37:48.840 My bachelor degree

00:37:50.440 in communication

00:37:51.220 from Simon Fraser

00:37:52.280 University in

00:37:53.040 British Columbia,

00:37:54.220 you know, the

00:37:54.900 whole theoretical

00:37:55.600 framework behind my

00:37:56.880 degree was the

00:37:58.620 Frankfurt School,

00:38:00.020 and I did hear

00:38:01.200 about this,

00:38:02.260 something similar,

00:38:03.080 it's Karl Popper's

00:38:04.920 paradox of

00:38:05.940 tolerance, so I

00:38:07.520 think it's almost

00:38:08.520 the same as

00:38:09.080 repressive

00:38:09.400 tolerance, the

00:38:10.460 idea that liberal

00:38:11.280 societies actually

00:38:12.620 have to be

00:38:13.360 inherently illiberal

00:38:14.680 because they need

00:38:15.880 to be, they need

00:38:16.980 to treat illiberal

00:38:18.060 ideas illiberally as

00:38:19.800 to not let them

00:38:20.440 rise, which was, as

00:38:21.780 you were saying,

00:38:22.280 are the kind of

00:38:22.700 right-wing ideas,

00:38:23.480 they have to be

00:38:24.180 suppressed, otherwise

00:38:25.220 we will, we're

00:38:26.980 going to turn

00:38:27.380 towards fascism,

00:38:28.220 that's the idea

00:38:29.720 behind that.

00:38:30.680 Yes, and that's,

00:38:31.580 I have heard

00:38:32.320 Popper, and it's

00:38:33.680 interesting because,

00:38:34.600 you know, I always

00:38:35.340 sort of saw Popper

00:38:36.560 as a philosopher

00:38:37.580 who was a promoter

00:38:39.920 of science and

00:38:41.120 reason and so on,

00:38:43.960 and I'm not quite

00:38:45.020 sure philosophically

00:38:46.160 what's happening

00:38:46.840 with this, but I

00:38:48.420 think it's perhaps

00:38:49.580 confusing ideas

00:38:51.500 with action,

00:38:53.180 you know, like,

00:38:54.400 we, just because

00:38:55.940 you're allowing a

00:38:56.920 fascist to express

00:38:59.280 their ideas

00:39:00.420 doesn't mean that

00:39:02.020 you inevitably

00:39:03.180 will be forced

00:39:04.320 to implement

00:39:06.460 fascism, and I,

00:39:08.620 and I think that

00:39:09.360 that, making that

00:39:10.860 argument means

00:39:12.480 that it's, it's

00:39:13.980 possible that

00:39:14.700 fascism has some

00:39:15.840 truth to it, like,

00:39:16.940 you know, as far

00:39:17.900 as I'm concerned,

00:39:18.840 there's, no one

00:39:19.480 is going to, well,

00:39:20.520 I guess I'm going

00:39:21.240 to have to hear

00:39:22.760 the arguments, but

00:39:23.700 it's going to be

00:39:24.840 very, very unlikely

00:39:25.840 that someone is

00:39:26.800 going to be able

00:39:27.280 to convince me

00:39:28.120 that, you know,

00:39:28.680 the fascist

00:39:29.420 program is

00:39:30.340 beneficial, and

00:39:31.560 that we should

00:39:31.980 do it, and so

00:39:33.900 I, you know, to

00:39:35.320 some extent, trust

00:39:36.540 the ability for

00:39:38.580 me to hear

00:39:39.380 fascist arguments,

00:39:40.660 because I know

00:39:41.880 that I'm going to

00:39:42.380 be able to respond

00:39:43.200 to them in a way

00:39:44.180 to be able to

00:39:45.180 defeat them, but

00:39:46.820 I can't stop

00:39:48.120 people from

00:39:48.780 speaking, because

00:39:50.580 if I do, that

00:39:52.220 means that I

00:39:52.800 already know the

00:39:53.720 truth before I've

00:39:54.680 heard the arguments,

00:39:55.480 arguments, and

00:39:56.620 that's really kind

00:39:57.660 of what we have

00:39:58.300 to understand, is

00:39:59.480 that, you know,

00:40:00.520 people who seem

00:40:01.980 to want to shut

00:40:02.680 down speech, I

00:40:04.360 think, are not

00:40:05.540 very confident in

00:40:06.880 their ideas, and

00:40:08.980 therefore, they, the

00:40:10.480 only recourse that

00:40:11.540 they have is to

00:40:12.520 stop people from

00:40:13.180 speaking, because

00:40:14.000 they're really not

00:40:15.080 all that aware of

00:40:16.980 what all the

00:40:17.480 arguments are, and

00:40:18.420 what the opposition

00:40:19.600 to those arguments

00:40:20.360 are, that's why

00:40:21.300 they don't want

00:40:21.860 people to speak,

00:40:22.540 because they

00:40:23.560 think that

00:40:24.020 somehow this

00:40:25.520 is going to

00:40:25.920 allow these

00:40:26.400 ideas to take

00:40:27.260 root, and

00:40:28.280 then we're going

00:40:28.800 to be facing a

00:40:29.720 fascist type of

00:40:31.380 regime, but what

00:40:32.620 really is necessary

00:40:33.800 is for these

00:40:34.580 ideas to be

00:40:35.240 brought out into

00:40:35.820 the open so

00:40:37.040 that they can be

00:40:37.600 defeated, and I

00:40:39.220 really think that

00:40:40.160 this is what's

00:40:41.000 required, and the

00:40:42.880 politically correct

00:40:43.480 totalitarian element

00:40:44.720 is really not

00:40:48.720 allowing this to

00:40:49.460 happen, which I

00:40:50.080 think is going to

00:40:50.560 be far, far more

00:40:51.580 destructive, because

00:40:53.240 you're going to

00:40:53.560 have all these

00:40:54.100 ideas going

00:40:54.740 underground, and

00:40:55.960 a whole bunch of

00:40:56.460 frustrated people

00:40:57.500 who can't express

00:41:00.360 themselves, and

00:41:01.520 even worse, you

00:41:02.660 know, you have

00:41:03.040 people who would

00:41:03.920 potentially have

00:41:06.020 left-wing ideas,

00:41:07.680 but because all

00:41:08.920 these totalitarians

00:41:10.100 are stopping them

00:41:10.840 from speaking, that

00:41:12.380 actually drives them

00:41:13.420 away from the

00:41:14.200 left, and makes

00:41:16.000 them more likely

00:41:17.260 to, you know,

00:41:18.360 become associates

00:41:19.420 of white

00:41:19.920 nationalists, and

00:41:21.360 I see this

00:41:22.200 happening, you

00:41:23.400 know, and I

00:41:23.940 guess Ricardo

00:41:24.560 Duchenne is

00:41:25.220 probably the best

00:41:25.900 example of this,

00:41:27.440 is that I think,

00:41:28.300 you know, Ricardo

00:41:28.820 Duchenne has some

00:41:31.140 ideas which I

00:41:31.940 disagree with, but

00:41:32.860 he also has ideas

00:41:33.820 which I do agree

00:41:34.660 with, and I

00:41:35.920 really would like

00:41:37.300 to have the

00:41:38.220 discussion to

00:41:39.080 kind of find out

00:41:39.780 where the truth

00:41:40.300 lies, but because

00:41:42.000 the totalitarian

00:41:43.000 element have made

00:41:44.120 it so impossible

00:41:44.980 even to say that

00:41:46.340 Duchenne should have

00:41:47.340 the right to put

00:41:48.700 forward his ideas,

00:41:49.700 it's become

00:41:51.340 impossible to

00:41:52.660 try to arrange

00:41:53.400 that kind of

00:41:53.880 discussion, or

00:41:54.940 very, very

00:41:55.460 difficult, you

00:41:56.380 can sort of see

00:41:57.240 what the kind of

00:41:58.240 difficulties would

00:41:58.880 be if you tried

00:41:59.640 to organize some

00:42:00.400 kind of forum

00:42:00.980 to investigate his

00:42:02.380 ideas, you would

00:42:03.600 be immediately

00:42:04.240 smeared as a

00:42:05.100 white nationalist,

00:42:06.540 it would be, you

00:42:07.520 know, it would be

00:42:07.960 very, very

00:42:08.340 difficult, when in

00:42:09.780 fact, you know,

00:42:10.620 what we need is to

00:42:11.620 kind of figure out,

00:42:12.600 you know, which of

00:42:13.240 Duchenne's ideas,

00:42:14.760 you know, have some

00:42:16.080 merit, which are

00:42:17.000 flawed, that sort of

00:42:18.900 thing, has to

00:42:19.400 happen, but at

00:42:20.460 this time, because

00:42:21.960 of politically

00:42:22.440 correct totalitarianism,

00:42:24.380 we haven't been able

00:42:25.040 to do that, and as

00:42:25.940 a result, the only

00:42:26.660 people Duchenne is

00:42:27.520 able to associate

00:42:28.320 with are white

00:42:29.500 nationalists, so

00:42:30.800 that's putting him

00:42:31.720 in a little bit of

00:42:32.440 an echo chamber, and

00:42:33.980 so it's much more

00:42:34.960 likely that he's

00:42:35.700 going to become,

00:42:36.580 have more strongly

00:42:37.840 held white nationalist

00:42:38.860 beliefs in that,

00:42:40.520 under those

00:42:41.160 conditions, than if

00:42:42.540 his ideas were

00:42:43.340 opened up for

00:42:44.080 scrutiny.

00:42:45.180 Well, yeah, so

00:42:45.860 Ricardo Duchenne, for

00:42:47.300 those who don't

00:42:48.060 know, he was a

00:42:49.300 professor, I think,

00:42:50.440 in sociology at the

00:42:51.540 University of New

00:42:52.180 Brunswick, and I

00:42:54.200 think his views on

00:42:56.160 Canada being a white

00:42:58.600 majority country, let's

00:42:59.580 say, to say it

00:43:00.300 briefly, they started

00:43:01.780 to become public, and

00:43:03.720 Huffington Post in the

00:43:05.480 UK, I think this is

00:43:07.020 where it all started,

00:43:08.420 the kind of final

00:43:09.800 mobbing of Ricardo

00:43:10.940 Duchenne, so the UK

00:43:12.700 Huffington Post, they

00:43:13.700 published an article

00:43:14.940 calling him Canada's

00:43:16.920 professor of white

00:43:17.900 supremacy or something

00:43:18.780 like that, and a

00:43:20.660 whole bunch of

00:43:21.340 professors signed a

00:43:22.500 petition, I guess the

00:43:25.200 goal was to ultimately

00:43:25.980 get him fired, and he

00:43:28.940 did end up resigning, I

00:43:30.940 don't know what

00:43:31.860 happened there, I

00:43:34.220 think I heard you say

00:43:35.040 in another podcast, it

00:43:36.180 sounds like maybe he

00:43:37.320 was bought off.

00:43:38.600 Yeah, it's likely, I

00:43:40.040 don't know what

00:43:40.740 happened, but, you

00:43:42.420 know, the university,

00:43:43.800 that's usually what

00:43:44.440 happens, gave him an

00:43:45.640 incentive to retire, and

00:43:48.240 because he was having so

00:43:49.780 many difficulties with

00:43:50.720 his colleagues, he

00:43:52.520 decided to go that

00:43:53.500 route, which, you know,

00:43:54.900 was good for him,

00:43:55.640 because he got a payout

00:43:56.960 for it, I assume, I'm

00:43:58.340 just speculating here, I

00:43:59.640 don't know anything about

00:44:00.500 it, I don't know

00:44:01.080 Duchenne personally at

00:44:02.540 all, I've just been

00:44:03.360 following his case from

00:44:04.900 an academic standpoint,

00:44:06.840 but the danger is, is

00:44:08.840 that, you know, that

00:44:10.760 means that we can't

00:44:12.740 really have that

00:44:13.480 discussion about his

00:44:14.680 ideas at this point,

00:44:16.540 it's not been made,

00:44:19.640 the constraints are

00:44:20.600 immense to say, okay,

00:44:22.860 I think we should

00:44:23.760 invite Duchenne and

00:44:25.380 have a critical

00:44:26.000 thinking series about

00:44:27.160 his ideas, you know,

00:44:28.180 that would just have a

00:44:29.600 huge blowback from

00:44:31.320 all the professors at

00:44:32.960 Mount Royal

00:44:33.320 University, or not all

00:44:34.840 of them, sorry, but a

00:44:35.660 significant, loud, you

00:44:38.000 know, contingent, and

00:44:39.280 so, you know, you

00:44:40.180 think when you're an

00:44:41.000 organizer of the

00:44:41.660 Rational Space

00:44:42.360 Network, you know, do

00:44:43.580 we really want to duke

00:44:44.960 it out with, and be

00:44:46.500 called a bunch of white

00:44:47.300 nationalists to boot,

00:44:49.180 you know, we have to

00:44:49.960 sort of think about

00:44:50.620 that, and that's kind

00:44:51.400 of, that's really what

00:44:52.860 makes me really feel

00:44:55.100 dismay, is that, you

00:44:57.420 know, you can't really

00:44:58.100 go into any of these

00:44:59.120 things, because it's

00:45:00.280 become this sort of

00:45:01.800 forbidden zone to talk

00:45:04.180 about, when what it

00:45:05.320 needs is more

00:45:06.040 discussion, not less

00:45:07.840 discussion, and I

00:45:09.740 think that's really

00:45:10.660 the problem of the

00:45:11.740 universities these

00:45:12.600 days, is that, you

00:45:14.580 know, we used to be,

00:45:15.920 have universities, the

00:45:16.860 ideal, anyway, that

00:45:18.740 this is where we

00:45:19.600 could kind of get at

00:45:20.900 these ideas in an

00:45:22.260 academic sense, and

00:45:23.480 figure out if they

00:45:24.240 were true or not,

00:45:25.780 that that's where that

00:45:26.800 could happen, and now

00:45:28.700 it's a whole bunch of

00:45:30.840 ideologues have managed

00:45:32.600 to entrench themselves

00:45:34.280 in the university, and

00:45:35.660 they say, this is the

00:45:37.220 right way to think, and

00:45:38.800 anyone who doesn't

00:45:39.700 think this is evil, and

00:45:42.240 therefore, and they're

00:45:43.980 going to use all these

00:45:44.600 tactics to smear the

00:45:46.340 reputations of the

00:45:47.260 people who want to have

00:45:48.380 these discussions, and

00:45:50.760 so what happens is that

00:45:52.160 none of those areas can

00:45:53.460 really be discussed in

00:45:54.620 the university, without

00:45:55.540 serious organization,

00:45:58.180 and, you know,

00:46:00.440 do it.

00:46:02.080 Yeah, yeah, it becomes

00:46:03.600 dangerous to kind of even

00:46:04.940 say, like, hey, I might

00:46:07.180 have a problem with

00:46:08.120 Ricardo Duchenne having

00:46:09.520 been mobbed in this way,

00:46:10.880 but no one really wants

00:46:11.800 to say that because, oh,

00:46:13.240 are you also a white

00:46:14.700 nationalist?

00:46:15.160 Is that why you're

00:46:15.900 defending Ricardo Duchenne?

00:46:17.380 And I think when it

00:46:18.100 comes to, you know, free

00:46:19.620 speech advocate professors

00:46:21.020 like Jordan Peterson in

00:46:22.200 Canada, he, I don't

00:46:23.800 think he spoke out

00:46:25.880 against, about Ricardo

00:46:27.240 Duchenne's situation, or

00:46:28.160 maybe he did quite a bit

00:46:29.340 later, but a lot of

00:46:30.340 people were saying, like,

00:46:30.980 hey, why aren't you

00:46:31.560 sticking up for Ricardo

00:46:32.440 Duchenne?

00:46:32.700 Well, I'm sure he's very

00:46:34.740 well aware that he will

00:46:36.400 be smeared by

00:46:37.520 association if he has

00:46:39.860 any questions like that.

00:46:40.820 That's what happened to

00:46:41.440 me.

00:46:41.880 So I knew, I sensed I

00:46:45.560 was going to need to

00:46:47.000 defend Duchenne at some

00:46:48.300 point, and I did on

00:46:50.200 Twitter, and Matthew

00:46:51.680 Sears from the University

00:46:52.980 of New Brunswick

00:46:53.860 immediately smeared me as

00:46:56.620 a bigot when I did it,

00:46:58.560 and I knew it was going

00:47:00.240 to happen, so I prepared

00:47:01.860 myself for it.

00:47:03.520 And this is something

00:47:04.420 that Jonathan Haidt and

00:47:08.660 Greg Lukianoff talk about

00:47:10.700 in their book, The

00:47:11.900 Coddling of the American

00:47:12.920 Mind.

00:47:13.980 It's the nature of witch

00:47:15.040 hunts.

00:47:16.300 People, when there's a

00:47:17.140 witch hunt that's

00:47:17.820 happening, people are

00:47:19.500 very, very worried about

00:47:21.740 defending the person who's

00:47:22.960 being accused of being a

00:47:24.060 witch, because what

00:47:25.340 happens when you do that

00:47:26.360 is that you are labeled

00:47:27.440 a witch yourself, and

00:47:29.140 so this is kind of what

00:47:30.320 happens with this mob

00:47:31.520 mentality, and, you

00:47:33.940 know, it takes someone

00:47:36.020 who, well, you have to be

00:47:37.860 prepared for it, and I

00:47:39.260 am, like, I've been doing

00:47:40.420 this a long enough time

00:47:41.560 that I know what's going

00:47:42.920 to happen, and I'm

00:47:44.120 prepared psychologically

00:47:45.180 for it, and so that

00:47:47.220 makes it easier, because

00:47:48.340 you can kind of steal

00:47:49.340 yourself against it.

00:47:50.620 But if you're not

00:47:51.260 prepared for that, and

00:47:53.080 you never really

00:47:54.140 encountered that kind of

00:47:55.460 reaction, it can be

00:47:57.440 very, very psychologically

00:47:58.660 debilitating for that to

00:48:00.680 occur, and so that's

00:48:02.440 where we're at right now.

00:48:03.480 So with the Rational

00:48:04.540 Space Network, and

00:48:06.700 also the Society for

00:48:07.700 Academic Freedom and

00:48:08.580 Scholarship, I should

00:48:09.400 mention that organization

00:48:10.440 because it's the national

00:48:11.600 organization.

00:48:13.000 And you're a board

00:48:13.560 member, yeah.

00:48:14.440 And I'm a board member

00:48:15.240 there.

00:48:15.620 Mark Mercer is the

00:48:16.640 president of that

00:48:17.400 organization, and it's

00:48:19.140 very principled.

00:48:20.040 It defends, we defend

00:48:21.540 everyone who is having

00:48:23.520 their freedom of

00:48:24.200 expression curtailed,

00:48:25.420 academic freedom

00:48:26.160 curtailed, we defend

00:48:27.560 high academic standards.

00:48:30.180 And that national

00:48:31.220 organization is very,

00:48:32.640 very important because

00:48:33.560 it can take the

00:48:34.500 national approach.

00:48:36.660 So I think you need to

00:48:37.620 have both the national

00:48:38.500 approach and also the

00:48:40.180 local university-by-university

00:48:42.240 approach.

00:48:43.200 And that's what we're

00:48:43.800 hoping now with the

00:48:44.500 Rational Space Network,

00:48:45.560 as I was just meeting

00:48:46.380 with some people from the

00:48:47.340 University of

00:48:47.820 Lathbridge, and they're

00:48:49.480 hoping to start up their

00:48:50.740 own Rational Space Network

00:48:52.180 at the University of

00:48:53.420 Lathbridge.

00:48:54.580 And so that's what I'm

00:48:55.540 hoping will happen, is

00:48:56.540 just a kind of a

00:48:57.460 multi-pronged approach.

00:49:00.260 You know, people can just

00:49:01.080 start up their own and

00:49:02.320 sort of use what we're

00:49:03.340 doing as a model.

00:49:04.680 You know, we completely

00:49:05.880 open access.

00:49:07.140 Anyone can use our

00:49:07.980 materials and copy them

00:49:09.440 and just start up their

00:49:10.260 own group so that we can

00:49:11.740 kind of start to build

00:49:13.060 some kind of

00:49:14.420 organizational strength.

00:49:16.600 Because that's the key,

00:49:17.940 is that, you know, people

00:49:18.760 say, you know, why aren't

00:49:19.720 professors standing up?

00:49:20.900 Well, you know, it's

00:49:22.780 not a very good career.

00:49:24.640 Like, if you are ambitious

00:49:26.480 in any way, this is not

00:49:29.480 something that's going to

00:49:30.660 appeal to you because

00:49:32.080 you're going to have to

00:49:33.180 slog it out against sort

00:49:35.760 of the ideologues for

00:49:37.240 quite a while until the

00:49:38.280 culture, we can actually

00:49:39.380 change the culture.

00:49:40.940 So that's what we're

00:49:41.800 working on now.

00:49:43.120 But we're hoping to build

00:49:44.280 up some kind of

00:49:44.820 organization where those

00:49:45.940 people who are slightly

00:49:46.900 fearful for whatever

00:49:48.280 reason will know that

00:49:50.480 they have some kind of

00:49:51.500 backing.

00:49:52.800 And I think that was

00:49:53.520 really Mark Hesht, who

00:49:54.620 was recently under fire

00:49:56.040 at Mount Royal.

00:49:57.740 A number of us from the

00:49:58.960 Rational Space Network

00:49:59.940 defended him.

00:50:01.040 We're very, very vocal in

00:50:02.420 defending him and let the

00:50:03.500 administration know that

00:50:05.180 he had support.

00:50:07.080 Well, yeah, if I could just

00:50:08.080 like explain what happened

00:50:09.400 there for those who aren't

00:50:10.280 familiar, those who are

00:50:11.220 not familiar.

00:50:12.320 Mark Hector or Hetched,

00:50:13.980 he is a Mount Royal

00:50:15.780 University instructor, so

00:50:17.460 he's not a tenured

00:50:18.560 professor.

00:50:19.740 He submitted an op-ed to

00:50:21.200 the Vancouver Sun.

00:50:23.240 And the topic was

00:50:24.220 something along the lines

00:50:25.140 of social trust declines in

00:50:28.780 an ethnically diverse

00:50:29.940 society.

00:50:31.060 I can't recall the article

00:50:33.080 in its entirety and the

00:50:34.520 studies that were cited

00:50:35.760 because the article was

00:50:37.840 actually removed quite

00:50:39.040 quickly from online.

00:50:40.360 I think it only lasted half

00:50:41.560 a day before the Vancouver

00:50:42.600 Sun was absolutely

00:50:43.560 mobbed and told they are

00:50:45.440 white nationalists, white

00:50:46.200 supremacists, they need to

00:50:47.320 remove this, this is

00:50:48.180 hurtful.

00:50:49.060 You know, all the regular

00:50:50.160 lines we hear, right?

00:50:51.520 And so this kind of leaves

00:50:53.260 Mark Hector probably in a

00:50:55.080 worrisome position at

00:50:56.480 Mount Royal, seeing as he's

00:50:57.580 not tenured and he's now

00:50:59.580 probably under a lot of

00:51:01.560 scrutiny.

00:51:02.780 Yes.

00:51:03.260 And I'm not exactly sure

00:51:05.000 where it stands right now,

00:51:06.960 but I did see him

00:51:07.980 interviewed because he just

00:51:09.280 went to UBC with Ricardo

00:51:10.780 Duchenne and gave a

00:51:12.000 presentation, which I

00:51:12.780 haven't viewed yet.

00:51:13.560 But it's not on video.

00:51:16.240 But he did an interview

00:51:18.140 with Ricardo Duchenne and

00:51:20.380 the UBC students for

00:51:22.820 freedom of expression.

00:51:24.180 And he mentioned on that

00:51:25.660 video that he had heard

00:51:27.820 that a group of professors

00:51:30.020 had, and maybe students,

00:51:31.720 I'm not sure who, and this

00:51:33.120 is just speculative because

00:51:34.340 I haven't actually got

00:51:35.800 confirmation of this yet,

00:51:37.720 but a number of professors

00:51:39.680 signed a letter which was

00:51:42.840 sent to the provost of

00:51:43.780 Mount Royal University

00:51:44.820 demanding that he be

00:51:47.640 barred from campus.

00:51:50.200 Yeah, his own campus

00:51:51.220 that he worked on.

00:51:52.300 And so I was just

00:51:55.240 horrified to hear about that,

00:51:58.000 but this was a while ago.

00:51:59.780 This happened, I believe,

00:52:00.920 right away.

00:52:01.460 But still, a group of us

00:52:04.320 were, you know,

00:52:05.540 defending him on,

00:52:07.060 with other, you know,

00:52:07.980 publicly defending him

00:52:09.140 and so on.

00:52:10.660 And I think, you know,

00:52:12.800 we'll see what unfolds,

00:52:14.840 but we are organized and

00:52:16.680 ready to defend him

00:52:17.800 more if we have to.

00:52:19.400 We did the initial work

00:52:21.200 and the Society for Academic

00:52:23.200 Freedom and Scholarship

00:52:24.060 would become involved.

00:52:25.420 But Mount Royal did act

00:52:26.660 well in this publicly.

00:52:28.960 They defended his rights

00:52:30.780 to freedom of expression

00:52:32.340 and academic freedom.

00:52:33.900 No one did anything

00:52:35.080 from the administration

00:52:36.180 to him.

00:52:37.960 But it's very alarming

00:52:39.780 when you see professors

00:52:41.140 that are doing this activity,

00:52:44.000 especially doing it secretly.

00:52:46.320 You know, at least with

00:52:47.320 the Duchenne case,

00:52:48.500 you know, people put

00:52:49.580 their names on the letter.

00:52:51.980 So, you know,

00:52:52.960 they were actually,

00:52:53.860 you know, they were

00:52:54.320 doing it publicly.

00:52:55.460 Now you can say

00:52:57.140 you shouldn't do that.

00:52:57.980 Like, I think that

00:52:58.660 that was very, very,

00:53:00.180 I thought that was wrong

00:53:01.280 from an academic standpoint

00:53:02.440 to do that to a professor

00:53:04.040 to gang up like that.

00:53:06.160 But they were doing,

00:53:07.320 you know, they were

00:53:08.000 doing it publicly.

00:53:09.240 But this was done,

00:53:10.300 if it's true,

00:53:11.600 was done secretly.

00:53:13.360 So Hesch doesn't even know

00:53:15.000 what was said about him

00:53:16.360 in this, if this is true.

00:53:17.740 And so I'm quite appalled

00:53:20.300 by that situation.

00:53:22.320 And I'm not sure

00:53:23.240 what's going to be done

00:53:23.840 about it.

00:53:24.200 But at least at the end,

00:53:25.720 this was a while ago,

00:53:27.240 university didn't do

00:53:27.940 anything about it.

00:53:28.540 They defended him.

00:53:29.300 And that's the main thing

00:53:30.240 is that you want

00:53:31.180 administrators to act

00:53:33.800 in a principled way

00:53:35.060 and defend faculty.

00:53:37.360 What's disturbing

00:53:38.260 is that it's now faculty

00:53:40.920 who are mobbing

00:53:42.060 other faculty members.

00:53:43.800 It used to be a problem

00:53:44.720 where administrators

00:53:45.460 were mobbing

00:53:46.200 other faculty members.

00:53:47.240 Kenneth Westhughes,

00:53:48.700 who's the main theorist

00:53:50.480 on academic mobbing,

00:53:52.080 writes very interesting

00:53:52.860 material on his website.

00:53:55.140 He's noted that

00:53:56.200 this is one of the changes

00:53:57.820 that's happened

00:53:58.480 is that the mobbing

00:53:59.880 is now being orchestrated

00:54:01.560 by professors

00:54:02.580 against other professors,

00:54:03.860 which does not bode well

00:54:06.600 for the future

00:54:07.880 of, you know,

00:54:08.780 being able to say

00:54:09.600 contentious things

00:54:10.800 because it makes you fearful.

00:54:12.900 you start to worry

00:54:15.420 about what you're saying

00:54:16.900 and you're reluctant

00:54:18.860 to come forward

00:54:20.580 and to put forward

00:54:21.400 viewpoints

00:54:21.940 that you see

00:54:22.760 might be perceived

00:54:24.400 as being contentious.

00:54:25.880 And, you know,

00:54:26.420 anyone who's interested

00:54:27.560 in, you know,

00:54:29.540 intellectual development,

00:54:31.680 you know,

00:54:31.900 the pursuit of truth,

00:54:33.320 those kinds of ideas

00:54:34.460 which are very important

00:54:35.380 to a university,

00:54:36.600 you know,

00:54:37.560 should be alarmed

00:54:38.520 about this

00:54:39.220 because, you know,

00:54:40.740 we're just dealing

00:54:41.360 with the tip of the iceberg

00:54:42.480 is that, you know,

00:54:43.960 who's going to,

00:54:44.600 Mount Royal is going to feel

00:54:45.760 that they should be

00:54:46.580 criticizing diversity now.

00:54:48.500 It's going to be,

00:54:49.440 it's going to be very,

00:54:50.420 very, you know,

00:54:51.260 you've got to be

00:54:51.840 very, very strong-willed

00:54:53.740 to be able to do it

00:54:54.880 and, you know,

00:54:55.620 many people,

00:54:56.820 you know,

00:54:57.260 they're just feeling nervous

00:54:59.120 and so this is

00:55:00.540 the environment

00:55:01.140 that we're dealing with

00:55:02.440 and I really think

00:55:03.460 it's a cultural problem.

00:55:05.220 You know,

00:55:05.460 we have to change

00:55:06.280 the culture

00:55:06.740 at the university.

00:55:08.080 People have to understand

00:55:09.400 that freedom

00:55:10.080 of expression

00:55:10.980 is the highest value

00:55:12.400 that we have.

00:55:13.700 It is not to be balanced

00:55:15.460 with other,

00:55:17.020 you know,

00:55:18.580 ideas and principles.

00:55:20.080 You know,

00:55:20.240 this is,

00:55:20.600 if we don't have

00:55:21.420 freedom of expression,

00:55:23.020 we are not going to be able

00:55:24.080 to talk about anything

00:55:25.140 and if we can't talk

00:55:26.260 about anything,

00:55:26.820 we can't figure out

00:55:27.740 what to do

00:55:28.340 in various contexts

00:55:29.340 and I think it was

00:55:30.140 Sam Harris who said,

00:55:31.700 you know,

00:55:32.320 freedom of expression

00:55:33.420 is the highest value

00:55:35.140 because it's the value

00:55:37.860 that enables us

00:55:38.960 to determine

00:55:39.760 all our other values

00:55:41.120 and if we get rid

00:55:42.400 of that,

00:55:43.280 you know,

00:55:43.520 we can't,

00:55:44.500 there's no way

00:55:45.280 to figure anything

00:55:46.060 out anymore

00:55:46.720 and that is really

00:55:48.340 a very,

00:55:49.180 very destructive development

00:55:50.300 and is,

00:55:51.340 you know,

00:55:51.680 the path

00:55:52.380 to authoritarianism

00:55:54.800 and totalitarianism.

00:55:56.240 This is creeping

00:55:57.000 into everything

00:55:58.020 that's happening

00:55:58.700 and really,

00:56:00.240 we need to band together

00:56:01.620 people who are concerned

00:56:02.760 to be able to fight it

00:56:03.800 because as an individual,

00:56:04.920 you won't be able

00:56:05.400 to do it.

00:56:06.420 Thank you,

00:56:06.740 Frances,

00:56:07.120 for talking to me today.

00:56:08.660 I'm sure many are

00:56:09.520 very excited to read

00:56:10.820 your book,

00:56:11.300 Separate But Unequal,

00:56:12.780 which comes out

00:56:13.420 November 5th

00:56:14.280 and any listeners

00:56:15.420 who reside in the Calgary area

00:56:17.120 should definitely consider

00:56:18.080 attending an event

00:56:19.000 by the Rational Space Network.

00:56:20.820 They are on Twitter

00:56:21.640 at Space Rational

00:56:23.220 and True North,

00:56:24.760 we are on Twitter

00:56:25.700 as well

00:56:26.260 at True North Centre

00:56:27.640 and our website

00:56:28.660 is tnc.news.

00:56:30.760 Thank you so much

00:56:31.520 for listening

00:56:31.980 and bye for now.

00:56:35.400 Thank you so much

Juno News - October 15, 2019

How 'Politically Correct Totalitarians' are Undermining Canadian Universities

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