Juno News - How should Canada respond to pro-Hamas rallies？

00:00:00.000 so how can we fight back against the radical left their newfound confidence

00:00:16.260 to openly call for violence or at least veiled calls for violence using terms

00:00:20.640 like direct action resistance and decolonization which we know are just

00:00:24.660 euphemisms that mean violence and in some cases even mass murder I wanted to

00:00:28.760 bring in my friend and colleague Rupa Subramania to have a discussion on this

00:00:32.840 topic but I don't know if we always agree especially on this issue but I

00:00:36.440 always really respect your position and the research and I thought that goes into

00:00:40.100 it so a couple of weeks ago on Twitter there was a sort of brouhaha over a

00:00:45.860 column by Warren Kinsella he basically pointed to some of the very vicious pro

00:00:50.840 Hamas rallies and some of the sort of more vocal people that were more or less

00:00:55.880 calling for genocide and in his in his original tweet he wrote this again if

00:01:01.940 they're here in a visa or do not have citizenship deport them they have

00:01:06.500 citizenship charge them I think that they deleted that tweet and changed the

00:01:10.120 headline a little bit watered it down a little bit I believe that the latest

00:01:13.380 version of the headline said charge them prosecute them convict them and then jail

00:01:18.120 them either way Ben Mulroney who is the son of former Prime Minister Brian Mulroney and

00:01:22.760 he's a sort of well-known TV host in Canada he quote tweeted Warren Kinsella

00:01:27.640 quote posted and wrote oh I co-sign this and you sort of took issue to it and said

00:01:32.760 you know I don't like the fact that people's civil liberties could potentially

00:01:37.080 be violated we're talking about deporting people just because we don't like

00:01:40.200 their views so I'm wondering if you could sort of expand on your thinking and

00:01:44.400 talk about why you do not think we should deport people who promote and

00:01:48.700 celebrate mass murder well first of all I mean let's unpack what you said I mean

00:01:53.880 you know you're asserting they're celebrating mass murder all of these

00:01:58.760 things are up for interpretation they're highly highly contested your view may be

00:02:03.940 that they're calling for mass murder I've been to three of these rallies here in

00:02:09.900 Ottawa there are people who there are all kinds of people who are part of this

00:02:14.300 movement including people who are calling for mass murder I'm not denying that but

00:02:19.500 let's stipulate for the sake of argument that saying river to the sea or free

00:02:24.580 Palestine is inciting violence now that falls under criminal law and should be

00:02:33.380 prosecuted as such that's my opinion there is no league but there is no legal or

00:02:39.300 ethical basis for deportation on such grounds that I'm aware of it would be

00:02:43.800 first of all it would be unconstitutional unconstitutional and this is the kind of

00:02:50.320 stuff that happens in totalitarian countries countries in the Middle East

00:02:55.220 countries in countries like China where you question the state or you question

00:03:00.080 Islam for example I've lived in some of these places you you do get deported for

00:03:06.540 for crossing that red line and the red line in these countries happens to be

00:03:10.060 these things I personally don't want to go there I'm a free speech absolutist but

00:03:16.080 but let you know I want to make it clear that you know incitement to violence is

00:03:21.180 where I you know there's a clear red line for me there so for example if you tell

00:03:25.880 someone to go you know buy a gun and tell them to go and kill a bunch of people that

00:03:30.840 is not protected speech anywhere that I'm aware of neither in the US nor in

00:03:35.440 Canada but we get into more difficult terrain in my opinion when it comes to

00:03:41.100 expressions such as from the river to the sea and free Palestine now on one

00:03:45.320 reading of it it would seem like this is a call for the destruction of Israel and

00:03:50.260 and this would not be considered protected speech however another reading is

00:03:54.620 that this is just a this is just a trope or a refrain used on behalf of the

00:04:00.500 Palestinian cause that goes back several decades it is even used by entities such

00:04:06.560 as the Palestinian Authority which does not call for the destruction of Israel it

00:04:10.000 does not wish to and highlight and high and highlight Israel off the map so it

00:04:15.380 would be a stretch to say that this is an incitement to violence for someone to

00:04:20.560 take up arms against the state of Israel now I want to point to I mean I don't know

00:04:29.100 how much you want to go into this but you know Candace you and I spoke earlier about

00:04:34.840 how this is a battle for civilization in a sense I don't know if you want to go into

00:04:42.200 that but I'm happy to talk about it but those are roughly yeah well we can get into that in a

00:04:48.720 minute Rupa because I just want to pick up on what you said look I don't think

00:04:51.080 that Canada is immune from going down a totalitarian path I think that we saw

00:04:55.200 glimpses of that during COVID and with the trucker convoy and Trudeau just sort

00:04:59.000 of quashing a protest simply because he doesn't like it so I am with you on this

00:05:03.120 I think that we need to preserve the right to peaceful assembly the right to

00:05:06.820 protest and the right to free speech those are absolute cornerstones of our

00:05:10.420 society but when we're talking about the difference between a country like

00:05:14.680 Canada which is an open diverse tolerant pluralistic society we come across a

00:05:20.200 sort of fundamental problem I think it's an existential problem when we also pair

00:05:25.440 that with mass unchecked immigration so people are allowed to come from anywhere

00:05:30.340 in the world we don't screen for ideology we don't screen for values so for all we

00:05:34.740 know of the people coming to Canada they could all be fervent you know crazed

00:05:40.780 Jew haters they could hate gay people and want to you know implement some kind of a

00:05:46.160 law where we where they kill these people right and so it's like sooner or later in

00:05:50.280 a liberal democracy like Canada we're gonna have to deal with the problem that

00:05:53.980 many people around the world hold views that are simply incompatible with the

00:05:58.740 West and I do believe it's a civilizational struggle I think that Canada's made a lot

00:06:02.540 of problems when it comes to just allowing anybody to come in and then on top of that

00:06:06.520 you have this festering ideologies on college campuses as I mentioned previously

00:06:10.180 in the show terms like decolonization which people will will openly say it

00:06:14.980 means mass violence it means massacres like October 7th so so again you're not not

00:06:21.580 to just simply repeat the question but I'm wondering if you could get into like

00:06:25.240 how did how does a country like Canada preserve pluralism I will also maintain

00:06:29.440 the freedoms because I think that these people will happily use our freedoms

00:06:32.520 against us they don't actually believe in free speech rupa because as soon as it

00:06:36.020 comes to people who criticize Islam criticize the Prophet criticize even

00:06:41.660 Hamas leaders we saw a Washington Post cartoon taken down a couple weeks ago

00:06:45.500 because it was offensive to Hamas leaders you know they're happy to use

00:06:49.760 that sword against us but then at the same time when it suits them they're gonna

00:06:53.540 drape themselves in the veil of we deserve free speech we deserve peaceful

00:06:57.080 protests or the right to free assembly they don't actually hold those values so

00:07:01.400 how do we deal with that well we have to deal with it because it goes back to the

00:07:05.180 fundamental tenets of Western civilization before I get into that I want to

00:07:11.060 address the values thing when it comes to citizenship I'm inclined to agree with

00:07:15.560 you I don't think we should be allowing people who want to come to Canada and

00:07:19.820 want to implement Sharia law for example that's not gonna that's not the

00:07:23.940 direction in which we want to go so if for example I think the US as far as I am

00:07:29.340 aware expects you to sign saying that you are you you don't belong to a Communist

00:07:37.380 Party or a Nazi Party or something to that effect so yes I think we we could we

00:07:42.260 could develop something along those lines for sure so we're in agreement there but

00:07:46.220 how do we how do we preserve this now a lot of people have talked talked about this in

00:07:53.460 terms of a civilizational battle what is happening in the Middle East but it's

00:07:57.540 also that term has also been used in the context of free speech you know clash of

00:08:04.800 civilization as Samuel Huntington put it and so therefore we must suppress views

00:08:11.580 that we don't like I think that by going down that route we're actually

00:08:16.440 undermining a core Western value that goes back to the Enlightenment which is free

00:08:20.520 an open debate I you might find free that kind of speech deplorable and

00:08:27.300 repugnant and I find that absolutely that to be the case but free speech is not

00:08:33.180 about liking something or or upholding the rights of views that we agree with it is

00:08:39.900 actually it comes down to protecting the protecting views that we disagree with and

00:08:46.080 that's the fundamental litmus test of free speech of any civilized society I want to

00:08:51.660 talk about civilization why is this important why is this a fundamental core of

00:08:56.040 Western civilization well our Western civilization was founded on two two sets

00:09:01.740 of ideas and cultures one was Greece and Rome and the other was a Judeo-Christian

00:09:07.860 heritage so Greece and Rome all of the now knowledge and antiquity accomplishments

00:09:14.640 during classical antiquity and then the Judeo-Christian heritage and then you know

00:09:20.700 and then the Renaissance happened which we discovered the glories of Greece and Rome and

00:09:24.540 then you had the Protestant Reformation and then finally the Enlightenment of the

00:09:28.440 18th century which included thinkers across Europe like Voltaire in France

00:09:34.140 Immanuel Kant in Germany David Hume and Adam Smith in Great Britain but here's

00:09:39.180 the crux and this is why this is so important all of these thinkers of the

00:09:43.440 Enlightenment agreed on one thing which is free open and civilized and rational

00:09:49.200 debate this was one of the fundamental tenets of a free open and liberal society

00:09:54.300 they you know look at what happened to Galileo who was persecuted by the

00:09:57.820 Catholic Church for saying that the earth revolved around the Sun and he had to

00:10:02.460 recant his view just to save his life let me remind you all of this was

00:10:07.300 happening in the context of the 18th century which witnessed horrific wars and

00:10:11.100 revolutions you know notably the Revolutionary War in the US in 1776 and

00:10:17.460 and then you had the as a consequence of that you had the First Amendment in the

00:10:21.740 US which which offers the most robust protection for free speech anywhere in the

00:10:27.160 world and then you had the French Revolution of 1789 and beyond you know

00:10:32.440 which saw the which saw the high ideals of revolutionaries you know which was

00:10:38.500 liberty, egalite and fraternity subverted by a brutal dictator named Napoleon the

00:10:46.520 Enlightenment thinkers like David Hume, Adam Smith, John Stuart Mill, then you go into the

00:10:53.120 20th century like Friedrich von Hayek and Milton Friedman all of my heroes put

00:10:58.560 freedom of expression as a core fundamental value for any free and

00:11:02.720 civilized society so our Western civilization as we know it right now has

00:11:08.340 been has been refracted through evolution over the centuries in one that prizes

00:11:13.520 public reasoning be based on free open and and civilized debate as a way to

00:11:20.340 discuss and resolve problems of public policy so in the context of the current

00:11:25.080 situation where you have these pro-Palestinian rallies I don't I think it

00:11:33.100 would be absolutely detrimental to suppress these voices because all it's

00:11:40.140 going to do is it's just going to move the stuff underground we've seen this play

00:11:45.140 out over and over again just look at what is happening in Germany right now they

00:11:48.700 ban pro-Palestinian protests has that reduced the number of anti-semitic

00:11:52.660 attacks can you can someone actually say that is happening it hasn't in fact it's

00:11:58.300 gotten worse it's it's certainly a band-aid it's a remedy and I'll agree with

00:12:02.380 you on that Rupa I just I just want to jump in though because I agree with you on

00:12:06.160 the on the value of the Enlightenment and those great thinkers that you

00:12:09.800 mentioned I'll just say that they all had a foundational and fundamental

00:12:13.900 agreement whether whether they wrote about it or not whether they believe

00:12:16.660 themselves to be theists or atheists or Christians they all held a fundamental

00:12:21.660 ideal of what it meant to be a citizen what it meant to contribute what it

00:12:26.780 meant to to to to be an equal member of society and what I worry about what I see

00:12:32.320 today is that we don't share that foundational belief that that foundational

00:12:35.740 belief has been torn apart and ripped apart that we don't have the same basis

00:12:39.700 starting point and I agree that that that sometimes these bands these ad hoc bands

00:12:43.660 aren't necessarily fixing the root of the problem and I worry that that that that

00:12:47.620 that root of the problem is so far gone that I don't know how we can repair it

00:12:51.220 you know starting by saying look we have these core values that we all have to

00:12:54.640 agree on I think that might be a first step in helping but I agree that you need

00:13:01.540 to be able to think you need to be able to critique the system and that that's all

00:13:05.620 happening but I fear and another example of this was the viral tick-tock trend that we

00:13:11.360 saw last week of young Americans talking about Osama bin Laden and their reverence

00:13:15.740 for him and his letter to America and how it's changed their world and they're

00:13:18.920 having an existential crisis it's like when we don't have a core belief when we

00:13:22.280 don't have a message that unites our society that tells us why tells a story

00:13:26.720 to ourselves about why we're here why what we're doing is important why we all

00:13:30.800 share you know a collective belief which is something that they did have in the

00:13:34.640 enlightenment I worry that we don't have that now and so we're trying to save

00:13:38.060 preserve freedom of speech but it's actually freedom of speech is one of the

00:13:41.380 things is helping to sort of unravel our whole civilization we do have it I

00:13:45.740 disagree with you there we do have all of the core values at you know with us

00:13:51.620 it's just that we've we as a not you and I because I think you and I have

00:13:57.300 consistently stood up for individual liberties and freedom and that sort of

00:14:02.360 thing but Western society at least over the last ten years or so has taken a

00:14:07.280 wrong turn you know for the last few years it was the left the progressive

00:14:12.680 left that that that that presided over a culture of you know canceling people for

00:14:21.020 views that they disagreed with and and and and you know and especially so here in

00:14:26.640 Canada but all we have right now is to continue to all we can do right now is to

00:14:33.040 continue to uphold these rights values stand up for them every single time that

00:14:39.200 it is under threat and that is my battle right I see the free speech debate the

00:14:44.380 free expression debate I see all of these things in an abstract way for me it is

00:14:49.220 not specific to a certain crisis not specific to a certain issue it is in an

00:14:55.920 abstract way I look at these things and it is not an emotional issue for me I

00:15:00.480 look at it in a clinical kind of way is this actually going to get us more

00:15:05.080 freedom and and look what happened during the pandemic right that wasn't too

00:15:11.040 long ago the pandemic was sold to us as an existential crisis you don't abide by

00:15:16.380 these restrictions you don't abide by these lockdowns we're all going to die

00:15:20.300 that was basically the messaging from our public health authorities some of us

00:15:24.600 including myself momentary momentarily believe that messaging and I and I

00:15:29.880 regret that to this very day and and and so there was this mass justification for

00:15:36.060 the curtailment of our civil liberties and peacetime it was imposed on us saying

00:15:40.200 this was an emergency doctors who dissented were cancelled and fired and you

00:15:46.360 know and then you had saw the freedom convoy and people supported the convoy had

00:15:50.100 their bank accounts frozen it was an Orwellian reaction by the state and and I

00:15:55.500 I fear that we are repeating the same mistake here I find many of the things

00:16:02.280 that are being said at these protests absolutely abhorrent by the way let me

00:16:06.560 point this out none of this is new we are only waking up to this problem now I

00:16:11.560 remember walking in downtown Ottawa two years ago a year and a half ago there was

00:16:16.360 another protest reacting to something that was happening in in between Israel and

00:16:22.200 Hamas and these you know everybody was chanting from the river to the sea free

00:16:26.880 Palestine and so on and so forth intifada and all of that stuff that there was

00:16:32.320 absolutely no a debate there was no attention paid to this issue none of this is

00:16:38.380 new my point is that you know we have to allow this to we have to allow

00:16:45.760 views that we find absolutely abhorrent we have to we have to allow that because

00:16:50.800 it is not going to you're not going to destroy Hamas ideology or radical Islam or

00:16:55.480 any of the things that we find absolutely abhorrent we're not going to destroy that

00:16:59.580 by suppressing someone else's right to express that freely it's not going to go

00:17:04.140 away that way I think the the only way we can do that is through debate and and

00:17:10.160 even if the other party does not engage in debate we must we must insist on

00:17:14.280 upholding the right to free speech okay I I definitely see where you're coming from

00:17:20.020 and I and I appreciate your defense of sort of basis of freedom of speech and

00:17:25.520 and and fighting against sort of tyrannical government I'm just gonna ask

00:17:28.660 you a couple questions because I know you know you said that a lot of it is up for

00:17:32.260 interpretation so from the river to the sea it's nuance perhaps you could say that

00:17:36.240 it doesn't mean what we think it means but some of the words you know we've been

00:17:39.940 seeing more and more right so I just just sort of rapid fire here if someone

00:17:44.520 calls for jihad do you think that that's why that's a call for violence again it's

00:17:49.180 I mean this is a discussion I had with senior official in the UK when I was

00:17:54.880 working on my free speech in the UK story last week and we had this very same

00:18:00.500 conversation now he's you know said that he he wants to basically see these protests

00:18:07.580 ban but even he had to concede it's hard to you know from from from a from a legal

00:18:14.620 perspective it really is hard you know it you know everything is context specific

00:18:18.880 right jihad a Muslim will tell you it is an internal battle but we also know that it

00:18:24.260 means you know it could potentially mean I think I think I think most Muslims won't say

00:18:29.120 that Rupa I think most Muslims will say that that jihad has long been understood

00:18:32.540 to mean a physical I I I don't know I mean the Muslims that I I I have I I have

00:18:38.480 interacted I've lived in the Middle East it is it is up for interpretation just like

00:18:43.160 intifada intifada again has been it means resistance it means resistance or

00:18:49.500 opposition nobody had any problems using the word intifada in the context of the

00:18:54.940 Arab Spring you see the thing is even even having said all of that you and I

00:18:59.820 can disagree on what these things actually mean my point is that it is

00:19:04.300 still as far as I'm concerned it is still protected speech if there's active

00:19:07.900 support for a terrorist cause material support for a terrorist cause let's take

00:19:12.780 the Kalistani problem for a second there are people in Canada in in our cities who

00:19:19.360 take out floats and parades glorifying Kalistani terrorists as martyrs I find

00:19:26.120 that absolutely repugnant it makes it makes me sick when I see that but I hope I

00:19:32.260 uphold their right to free expression as long as they're doing it peacefully as

00:19:36.160 long as they're the mastermind of the air India bombing you think if someone's

00:19:39.360 holding up a banner they are doing that they are doing that they are doing that I

00:19:45.040 mean they are absolutely doing that I'm a free speech absolutist I find is

00:19:49.300 distasteful and repugnant again it goes back to the core value of Western

00:19:53.960 civilization which is what I care about you know it is for me the litmus test of

00:19:59.020 free speech really is not if you agree with someone but if you strongly disagree

00:20:03.100 with someone and you respect their right to speak freely that's the litmus test

00:20:07.640 for a civilized society and I just don't I've lived in repressive societies where you

00:20:13.960 know things are interpreted differently by someone who wants to come after you and

00:20:18.220 I've I face the consequences of that and I've seen others face the consequences of

00:20:23.260 that and we are going down a slippery slope here in Canada we've already we came

00:20:27.940 very close to being a totalitarian society under the pandemic and I

00:20:31.480 seriously I do not want us to go down the same path okay I think that's a great

00:20:37.420 place to leave it Rupra Supermania thank you so much for joining thank you for

00:20:40.600 your insights we really appreciate it and thank you so much for tuning in I'm

00:20:44.200 Candice Malcolm and this is the Candice Malcolm show

Juno News - November 26, 2023

How should Canada respond to pro-Hamas rallies？

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