Juno News - How to cope with the coming recession in Canada (Ft. Michael Campbell)

00:00:00.000 Life in Canada is more expensive than ever.

00:00:03.240 Inflation has increased the cost of goods and services.

00:00:06.160 Housing prices continue to soar.

00:00:08.460 And yet, our government refuses to reduce spending

00:00:11.460 or take any kind of responsibility for this looming economic storm.

00:00:16.600 What can Canadians do to protect themselves?

00:00:18.960 I'm Candice Malcolm, and this is The Candice Malcolm Show.

00:00:30.000 Hi, everyone. Thank you so much for tuning into the podcast.

00:00:37.480 So, you know that I was critical of the Conservative Party of Canada debate last week.

00:00:42.020 I thought it was a terrible format, really boring.

00:00:44.420 They didn't really get into the issues that I personally care about.

00:00:46.760 But there was one interesting and explosive moment in the debate

00:00:50.540 when the candidates began slamming and piling on frontrunner Pierre Polyev

00:00:54.920 for his position against the Bank of Canada and for supporting cryptocurrency.

00:01:00.000 It seems like there was sort of a generational divide on the stage

00:01:04.420 where everyone was opposed to Pierre talking about cryptocurrency,

00:01:07.920 but they were also really taking his position out of context

00:01:10.600 and pretending as though he had advised Canadians to put all of their savings in crypto,

00:01:15.960 which I don't think Mr. Polyev ever did.

00:01:19.080 But it does raise an interesting question about the role of inflation,

00:01:23.400 the flooding of the money supply, printing obscene amounts of money from the Bank of Canada,

00:01:27.540 the government, the Trudeau government spending up a storm,

00:01:30.700 burying the country into $1.2 trillion worth of debt.

00:01:34.800 And it is worth having a bigger conversation to unpack some of these issues.

00:01:39.840 So we spent yesterday's podcast speaking to Matt Spoke.

00:01:43.260 Matt is a tech entrepreneur and writer in Toronto,

00:01:45.580 and he's very enthusiastic and optimistic about the crypto space.

00:01:49.700 And he, much like Pierre Polyev, is excited about the potential

00:01:54.360 and the idea of freeing money from the clause of government.

00:01:58.000 So if you haven't listened to that podcast already, I encourage you to go and check it out.

00:02:02.000 But I also think it's fair to criticize Pierre for perhaps being too enthusiastic about Bitcoin,

00:02:08.780 especially given what's happened in the last week or so,

00:02:11.280 which is that Bitcoin has lost a substantial amount of its price.

00:02:14.800 It's collapsed, which shows the vulnerability and lack of stability when it comes to decentralized currencies.

00:02:21.200 The reality is that the market is taking a hit across the board.

00:02:24.740 And so, you know, you've seen tech stops plummet.

00:02:27.540 You've seen the NASDAQ down.

00:02:28.800 S&P, I think, is down 10% so far this year.

00:02:31.440 We're definitely into correction territories in the markets.

00:02:34.560 And many analysts predict that we are entering a recession.

00:02:38.580 And so to Pierre's credit, at least he's talking about the important issues

00:02:41.420 of the day that are facing Canadians, pocketbook issues, the cost of living, cost of housing,

00:02:46.520 the impact of inflation, talking about the cost of gasoline and these issues.

00:02:51.180 It's really important.

00:02:52.600 And I wanted to, again, talk more in depth about the economy

00:02:56.180 and what Canadians can do to protect themselves.

00:02:59.080 And so I'm very, very pleased today to be joined by Michael Campbell.

00:03:02.880 Michael is a top business analyst, a successful entrepreneur, business owner,

00:03:06.560 and investor in the manufacturing, tech, entertainment, and real estate space.

00:03:11.460 He is the host of a very popular, long-running radio show out in Vancouver called Money Talks.

00:03:16.620 Money Talks is now a podcast about finance, money, and investment in the economy.

00:03:21.200 He's also a senior business analyst for BCTV News over on Global.

00:03:25.560 He's based in Vancouver and he prides himself on bringing Canadians the finest independent financial

00:03:30.540 thinking.

00:03:31.160 I was incredibly pleased to be a guest on Michael's podcast over the weekend.

00:03:35.540 And so he is returning the favor by joining my podcast today.

00:03:39.180 So, Michael, it's great to have you on the program.

00:03:40.780 Thank you so much for joining us.

00:03:42.500 Well, it is my pleasure.

00:03:43.860 I mean, there's so much going on that are impacting us directly,

00:03:46.760 whether it's somebody all of a sudden discovers economics, finance, international affairs are

00:03:51.400 impacting them when they just simply go fill up at the pump.

00:03:53.980 But it's across the board.

00:03:55.440 And I think you outlined it very well there saying this is a phenomenal challenge for individuals

00:04:01.000 and their own just sort of cost of living.

00:04:03.880 It's the number one issue you read and you get poll results, that kind of thing.

00:04:08.540 Number one in the States.

00:04:09.700 It's having a huge impact, I think, going forward to their midterm elections.

00:04:13.140 No, it's a big deal.

00:04:14.480 No one should underestimate.

00:04:15.720 It's a big deal.

00:04:17.300 Well, and what we sort of saw that, you know, the criticism I would have against the candidates

00:04:21.080 that were critiquing Pierre Pauly, look, it's totally fair to say, look, Pierre, you

00:04:24.480 shouldn't criticize Bank of Canada or, you know, you shouldn't sell people on crypto

00:04:28.880 as if it's a magic way to hedge against inflation.

00:04:31.340 But at least Pierre is talking about these issues.

00:04:33.900 I know he never told everyone to, you know, sell off their house and put all the proceeds

00:04:37.760 into crypto.

00:04:38.700 He's just talking about it as another alternative and a place where you might want to part of

00:04:43.140 your investments.

00:04:43.940 But I'm wondering if just off the start, before we talk about, you know, the precarious

00:04:48.860 situation in the economy, if you could just comment on what you thought about Pierre

00:04:53.000 Pauly and his criticisms against the Bank of Canada.

00:04:56.740 Well, first of all, the attraction of something like a cryptocurrency is because people don't

00:05:02.500 trust government.

00:05:03.340 That's the number one issue facing, you know, it's global.

00:05:05.780 It's an overriding theme that I use to then drill down and to say what's really happening.

00:05:11.440 Because if you don't have confidence in the system, there's a real problem.

00:05:14.680 And I think that's underestimated, actually.

00:05:16.580 And I'll give you a quick example.

00:05:17.900 If I said to you, Candace, hey, look, do you want a five-year government bond?

00:05:20.980 By the way, it pays 83%.

00:05:22.600 You know, hey, 83% every year in a five-year?

00:05:25.900 Oh, little problem.

00:05:27.380 It's Argentina.

00:05:28.900 Well, you don't trust the Argentinian government.

00:05:30.820 You know, I could go Turkey and say 24% five-year bond.

00:05:33.780 They get to those levels because people don't trust government.

00:05:37.700 That's been the attraction in the whole cryptocurrency space, you know, led by Bitcoin, that it's not

00:05:44.060 centralized finance.

00:05:45.440 It's not, you know, under the rule.

00:05:47.100 And we got an example in the Trucker's Convoy.

00:05:48.940 We've had an example with the sanctions on Russia, where all of a sudden, you know, some

00:05:53.240 people in Canada had their bank accounts frozen.

00:05:55.820 We couldn't do that if they held it in Bitcoin, for example, because there's no central place

00:06:00.820 you go.

00:06:01.240 You don't go to the Bank of Montreal.

00:06:03.160 You don't go to the Toronto Dominion Bank and say, freeze these accounts.

00:06:06.180 There's no equivalent there.

00:06:08.000 And the same when they came in and they made the sanctions against Russia's central bank.

00:06:12.260 And presto, all of a sudden, they don't have access to the gold that they've got held

00:06:16.060 outside of Russia.

00:06:17.500 This is the politicization, the weaponization of bank accounts has serious long-term implications

00:06:23.320 because someone's sitting there going, wait a second, I'm not sure if I trust, if I run

00:06:27.320 afoul of the government.

00:06:28.480 It doesn't matter if you're sympathetic or not sympathetic.

00:06:30.640 The message was, if you run afoul of government internationally or domestically, you may have a

00:06:36.020 problem.

00:06:36.440 That money may actually not be yours, but you can't do that with decentralized.

00:06:41.380 So that's where the attraction came.

00:06:42.740 And then the second side is kind of interesting because for a lot of people, it's not either

00:06:47.080 or.

00:06:47.640 It's not cryptocurrencies or housing.

00:06:51.460 No, some of them are the product of the same thing, which is we're worried about the devaluation

00:06:55.840 of the purchasing power of our currency.

00:06:57.920 So we're looking for other things.

00:06:59.600 So, you know, when they flush the system with money, all of a sudden you've got people

00:07:03.280 going, I'll buy stocks.

00:07:04.840 I'll buy baseball collectibles.

00:07:06.220 We just had a record art piece, you know, that famous Andy Warhol, Marilyn Monroe piece.

00:07:11.960 And it went for 192.5 million US sold in four minutes.

00:07:17.420 Well, that's someone who's got another store of wealth.

00:07:19.840 They're saying, I don't want the paper.

00:07:21.700 I got to do something other than this paper called dollars.

00:07:24.880 And so I'm choosing other things.

00:07:26.300 So that's another huge dynamic in the investment markets over the last couple of years.

00:07:30.940 It was definitely interesting.

00:07:32.400 My husband's really into this space as well, and he got interested in NFTs and Ethereum

00:07:37.440 and just, again, the same concept, trying to, you know, find new and unique ways to invest

00:07:43.900 money because, you know, you look at the economic situation out there and it is looking pretty

00:07:50.440 bleak.

00:07:50.880 I did want to just ask you one question about the Bank of Canada, because I know that there's

00:07:56.240 been a lot of sort of ink spilt in the, you know, pages of our establishment legacy newspapers,

00:08:04.400 criticizing Pierre, saying how dare he criticize the Bank of Canada for their role.

00:08:09.960 You know, they're independent from the Trudeau government and they shouldn't be brought into

00:08:13.040 the fray of politics.

00:08:14.760 So I wonder if you'd help us understand whether the Bank of Canada bears some blame for the

00:08:21.180 inflation that is happening, the rising cost of living, and if you could give us your thoughts

00:08:27.120 on whether you think Pierre's criticisms are valid or whether you agree that you think they're

00:08:31.180 offside.

00:08:32.520 And there's a lot there in what you're asking, and I'm smiling because, you know, careful

00:08:36.100 asking me a question.

00:08:37.020 I might answer it and might take a week and a half.

00:08:39.620 But let's go back.

00:08:41.540 And this is like frightening words coming out of my mouth.

00:08:44.400 Let's go back to September 16th, 2019, the overnight credit marks.

00:08:48.880 But this is key to understand at the time I called it the event of the year that wasn't

00:08:53.380 getting reported.

00:08:54.620 So what happened is, remember, if you're going to borrow money, you've got to have somebody

00:08:57.520 lend it to you.

00:08:58.700 And, you know, the government can't control who lends it to you.

00:09:01.020 They can't say, you know, Candace, you must lend Air Canada X amount of dollars at this

00:09:06.040 rate.

00:09:06.660 So it's a free market.

00:09:08.500 There's an overnight market very quickly, you know, short term lending.

00:09:12.460 You know, one corporation knows that they're going to have a cash crunch.

00:09:15.220 Maybe it's a payroll coming.

00:09:16.240 So they borrow maybe for one day or two days or a week or something.

00:09:20.020 Well, what happened is nobody wanted to lend.

00:09:22.420 September 16th that night, nobody wanted to lend.

00:09:25.280 They have other concerns.

00:09:26.720 I think at the time they were worried about what was inside of Deutsche Bank, you know,

00:09:30.160 in Europe.

00:09:30.580 But they didn't want to lend.

00:09:32.460 So you're the borrower.

00:09:33.580 You got to have money.

00:09:34.840 So you go, well, what if I pay you 4%?

00:09:37.760 Nope.

00:09:38.480 What if I pay the equivalent of 6% annually?

00:09:40.860 And you say, nope.

00:09:41.920 How about 8%?

00:09:42.880 I'm not lending it to you.

00:09:44.300 Then you said 10% done.

00:09:46.760 That's what the overnight interest rate did.

00:09:49.120 It went from 2% to borrow to 10% to borrow in a matter of hours because nobody wants to

00:09:56.440 lend.

00:09:57.060 So what happened?

00:09:58.100 The Federal Reserve said, well, we can't have this.

00:10:00.080 Obviously, you've broken the system, the credit system.

00:10:02.000 And so they stepped in and they said, oh, I know, we'll be the lender.

00:10:06.800 We'll be the ones.

00:10:07.760 And we'll do it back at 2%.

00:10:09.280 Well, let's keep going.

00:10:11.220 So that was September 219.

00:10:12.720 Then you get into, you know, the lockdowns, the problems in March of 2020.

00:10:18.760 The pandemic was growing there.

00:10:21.020 Same problem.

00:10:22.380 The level of uncertainty was such that people didn't want to lend money.

00:10:26.200 I mean, would you want to lend money to a cruise ship line when there's a lockdown or

00:10:29.540 an airline when there's a lockdown or even to government?

00:10:32.800 What's going to happen to government?

00:10:34.740 You know, my gosh, the economy's being locked down.

00:10:37.140 They're not going to get the tax revenues.

00:10:38.780 So people wanted to hold their money.

00:10:40.880 Or if I am going to lend it to you, I want more.

00:10:43.840 I don't, I'm not going to lend it to you 2%. 1.00

00:10:45.620 I need 6, 8, 10%.

00:10:48.360 Well, again, the central bank said no.

00:10:51.300 So they stepped in.

00:10:52.540 They guaranteed, basically guaranteed mortgages.

00:10:55.740 That's why all of a sudden mortgage rates dropped because the risk went out of them.

00:10:59.540 And they started to lend the government money.

00:11:01.760 I mean, I'm not going to get into the mechanism, but basically they're saying, we will give

00:11:05.560 you the money.

00:11:06.160 We will create the money and we will give it to you, government of Canada, at 1% for 10

00:11:12.580 years, whatever it was.

00:11:14.080 Record lows.

00:11:15.260 So that's the role they played.

00:11:16.600 And they continued doing it in Bank of Canada, continued doing that right through into November

00:11:21.840 of 21.

00:11:23.080 Then they said, we're not going to increase that amount.

00:11:26.000 They bought $400 billion or so of government bonds.

00:11:31.420 Otherwise, our government wouldn't have had the money.

00:11:34.420 You know, I mean, it was sort of ironic when the prime minister said during the 2021 campaign,

00:11:40.500 I don't think about monetary policy.

00:11:42.760 And I'm going, well, goodness gracious, that's interest rates.

00:11:46.120 Who do you think provided you the money to do CERB, to do whatever it was, the subsidies

00:11:52.500 for small businesses?

00:11:53.420 You name the program, the hundreds of billions of dollars.

00:11:56.280 Who provided the money?

00:11:57.400 It was the Central Bank of Canada, again, through a mechanism.

00:12:02.400 But bottom line is they created the money, ended up with government, you know, floated

00:12:06.780 four or 500, actually 576 billion in bonds over two years.

00:12:11.600 That was the Bank of Canada.

00:12:13.840 That's who provided the money.

00:12:15.140 That's the role they played.

00:12:16.420 And it started with their worry that we had an absolute problem in the credit market, like

00:12:21.780 it was dysfunctional.

00:12:23.000 And you can't have a dysfunctional credit market when you've got a world full of credit, that

00:12:26.900 you've got five, you know, the record amount of loans out there, record amount of borrowing

00:12:32.720 and debt out there.

00:12:33.580 You can't do it that way.

00:12:35.140 So that's sort of the dynamic.

00:12:37.540 And now you already regret asking me that.

00:12:39.400 I can see that.

00:12:40.280 But that's the role that Canada played.

00:12:42.760 Without them, they were worried the system comes to a halt.

00:12:45.520 No lending takes place, but we have a system built on lending and borrowing.

00:12:49.480 So it would come to a halt.

00:12:50.960 They stepped in.

00:12:52.080 Government of Canada couldn't be borrowing at six or eight percent or whatever would have

00:12:55.240 ended up if they went to an individual or a mutual fund or a pension fund.

00:12:59.060 They're the ones that kept interest rates to the record low.

00:13:01.840 Government got the money and the government started to spend.

00:13:05.760 Well, I appreciate you breaking that all down for us because I sort of vaguely remember

00:13:10.200 the news that you were talking about in late 2019.

00:13:14.000 It couldn't have been, you know, a more precarious time given what we experienced in the following

00:13:19.180 four months.

00:13:19.560 But I do remember I had Pierre Polyev as a guest on my podcast.

00:13:23.160 We did a very long interview where he was also, you know, very concerned back then about

00:13:28.860 the inflationary impact of those kinds of decisions.

00:13:32.800 And you're also right to bring up Trudeau's comment about not thinking about monetary policy

00:13:37.500 because here we are, what, a year later and we're in this incredibly, you know, loomy system,

00:13:46.840 loomy situation where it seems like we are heading towards a recession.

00:13:51.540 We have a prime minister that doesn't care or think about it.

00:13:54.040 And, you know, media that don't hold him accountable for it.

00:13:58.020 So I'm just wondering, you know, at this point, do you think that we are heading into a recession?

00:14:04.000 What role did Justin Trudeau and his spending have in that?

00:14:08.900 And what's the best thing that the government can do at this point to help protect Canadians

00:14:12.980 against what could be really, really dark times ahead financially?

00:14:16.720 Well, let's talk about how you get inflation.

00:14:20.740 And as Milton Friedman, you know, maybe the most famous economist the last hundred years,

00:14:25.580 but said, inflation is everywhere and always a monetary phenomenon.

00:14:30.520 So when we're flushing the system with money, the key was, yes, the Bank of Canada created

00:14:34.740 the money, lent it to the federal government.

00:14:38.640 Then the federal government started to spend.

00:14:40.960 And it wasn't pandemic relief only.

00:14:42.940 In fact, the majority of that money went to people who were not impacted financially.

00:14:47.760 Everyone's impacted socially, et cetera.

00:14:49.820 It may be health-wise too, tragically, but they were not impacted financially.

00:14:54.620 And well, that's why we have record savings rates all of a sudden.

00:14:58.280 I mean, we had these stories of, not stories, the facts of 40,000 grade nine students got CERB

00:15:03.980 payments.

00:15:04.960 Like, are you kidding me?

00:15:06.400 40,000, yeah, they are not the breadwinner.

00:15:08.800 And if you recall, back in May of 2020, we had the Canada Revenue Agency come and said,

00:15:14.780 we're suspecting a lot of fraud here.

00:15:16.300 And the government said, no, don't worry about that.

00:15:19.500 That's not our goal.

00:15:20.640 They were pushing money into the system.

00:15:23.440 And I mean, depending on which political party you support, have various attitudes about how

00:15:28.620 much debt we should be taking on.

00:15:30.260 But we know that we took on this monstrous amount.

00:15:32.600 We had the Parliamentary Budget Officer just two weeks ago tell us it was about $576 billion,

00:15:37.980 of which $204 billion were not pandemic-related spending.

00:15:41.940 I mean, it was just flushing money out.

00:15:44.620 And it's that amount of money that created this record savings.

00:15:48.520 All of a sudden, the economy opens up.

00:15:51.000 People have pent-up demand, whether it's for travel or whether it's they were going to do

00:15:54.880 a reno or whatever they were going to do.

00:15:57.780 Presto.

00:15:58.140 Prices go up because it's taking place right at the same time as we've got some supply shortages,

00:16:03.920 which also play a part.

00:16:05.720 But at all, the foundation of that was if everyone was broke, it wouldn't matter that

00:16:09.860 we didn't have supply because we wouldn't be buying anything anyways.

00:16:12.800 You know, the lowest people on the income scale are not causing inflation.

00:16:16.520 They don't have the money to spend.

00:16:18.540 You know, so we flushed the money across the board.

00:16:21.900 I mean, one of the stats coming out of the government programs was that only $0.14 went to

00:16:26.640 the low of every dollar went to the lowest income group, the lowest 20% of income earners.

00:16:32.260 And we had out in British Columbia and British Columbia, there was a great example where you

00:16:36.440 had the premier, John Horgan, stand up and say, if you make $125,000 in your family or

00:16:44.940 less, we're going to send you a grand.

00:16:47.660 $125,000 to break.

00:16:49.220 It wasn't if you got impacted by the pandemic, if you lost financially by the pandemic, if

00:16:55.320 you're at the lower income rate.

00:16:57.760 No, it was anybody at $125,000 in a family, it's a family income, got $1,000.

00:17:05.660 And I'm going, you know, and that didn't include, by the way, it's something we always make a

00:17:10.320 mistake in the broad media of not including remuneration being benefits.

00:17:14.580 So let's say I've got make $125,000, I've got an extra enhanced medical plan, I've got

00:17:19.620 an enhanced pension plan.

00:17:21.400 So I could have been making $125,000 and 20 more in benefits and still got $1,000 sent

00:17:26.940 to me.

00:17:27.880 That's how you get inflation.

00:17:29.740 That's the essence.

00:17:30.780 It's not Bank of Canada.

00:17:32.420 It's, I mean, they have a part to play for sure.

00:17:34.560 I'm not saying that.

00:17:35.100 But the real cause is the indiscriminate sending out of money.

00:17:38.880 Well, it was going to go somewhere.

00:17:40.720 And as I say, one of the measures was record savings account.

00:17:43.100 So yeah, we've got inflation.

00:17:45.780 Then you compound it two ways.

00:17:47.680 But first with, yeah, supply shortages on some things, but that's still not the essence

00:17:51.680 because the essence for me is not the CPI number.

00:17:54.540 It's what am I paying for food?

00:17:56.020 What am I paying for energy?

00:17:57.280 What am I paying for my housing?

00:17:58.800 You know, rents or whatever.

00:17:59.960 I can't avoid those.

00:18:01.220 I don't have to buy furniture next week or clothing next week.

00:18:04.480 So that doesn't compute in my personal cost of living.

00:18:08.420 It doesn't have to.

00:18:09.260 Uh, so presto, all of a sudden, uh, so yes, we had supply shortages, but that wasn't why

00:18:16.140 we got higher energy prices, you know, that, and that was a killer.

00:18:19.640 That's not why, uh, on money talks, we were talking about, uh, the supply shortage or there

00:18:25.540 rather the commodity boom in February of two 20.

00:18:28.360 That's how obvious it was.

00:18:29.700 We hadn't invested anything in oil, anything in copper or nickel, you know, in seven years.

00:18:36.060 Well, as soon as demand picks up, you got a problem.

00:18:38.260 Then you exacerbate it with other, I mean, it's the most direct line you can draw through

00:18:42.180 government policies around the world and what we're doing with energy.

00:18:44.920 It's like horrendous.

00:18:46.300 That's the killer.

00:18:47.480 So that's what Canadians are dealing with is they just can't avoid that energy price increase

00:18:51.740 or that food price increase or that rents have gone up dramatically across our country,

00:18:57.000 well above the CPI rate, you know, in Canada.

00:18:59.640 So yeah, that's what we're dealing with and it's not easy.

00:19:02.880 Right.

00:19:03.120 And well, there's so many, and everywhere you look, there's, you know, something else to

00:19:06.120 be concerned about.

00:19:07.220 One of the things that I'm constantly concerned about, Michael, is there's this, uh, there's

00:19:10.940 con there, there's a server that comes out every few months that talks about, um, Canadians.

00:19:14.740 This one's done by Ipsos, um, but how many Canadians, uh, are within $200 of not being

00:19:20.300 able to make their ends meet?

00:19:21.660 So, so people who don't have any kind of emergency savings, people who just basically live paycheck

00:19:26.200 to paycheck, according to the latest Ipsos service survey, it's, it's now 49% of the

00:19:31.300 country.

00:19:31.600 So, so we're talking about, you know, we're not just talking about working class Canadians

00:19:35.940 or people, again, who make minimum wage.

00:19:38.200 We're talking about a big, big swath of the middle class who, who just don't have any

00:19:43.540 money saved.

00:19:44.240 If they, they don't have the ability to, to absorb a big price shock or, or, you know,

00:19:48.960 and so, so you look at this, this, this number, 49% don't have, uh, say savings of more than

00:19:55.320 $200, uh, each month.

00:19:57.260 And then, and then, you know, you just suppose that with the incredibly quickly rising, um,

00:20:02.760 inflationary numbers, I think they were at seven or 8%, um, you know, that the cost of

00:20:06.900 gasoline, I know you're out in British Columbia.

00:20:08.420 I think you've seen gas numbers of over, over $2, uh, a liter, which, uh, you know,

00:20:14.220 when I got my driver's license, I think gas was, uh, 49 cents a liter.

00:20:17.800 Um, and, uh, you know, that was, that was a long time ago now, 20 years, but, uh, still,

00:20:23.400 uh, you know, the, the, the, the cost of living is, is going up dramatically.

00:20:27.640 Uh, how, how is this going to impact Canadians?

00:20:30.820 And what advice, I know part of what you do on your show is you give financial advice

00:20:34.620 to Canadians.

00:20:35.200 Uh, what, what advice do you have to people who are, you know, getting ready to absorb

00:20:39.320 the, uh, big price gains that have, have come and are continuing to come?

00:20:45.100 Just a couple of things on that.

00:20:46.580 And, uh, let's come back to so much of this is direct relation to government policy.

00:20:51.540 And it's not just, yes, it is the flushing the system with money.

00:20:54.600 That's one thing.

00:20:55.420 But when you look at energy policy, for example, seven years of underinvestment, I mean, who

00:21:00.060 in their right mind would say, I'm going to invest $10 billion in a, in a refinery.

00:21:04.680 Cause the problem actually, I can come back to this is a refinery problem first.

00:21:08.580 You know, oil prices are up 70%.

00:21:10.340 Uh, but my goodness, look at the refining product.

00:21:13.540 We don't have the capacity, but who would build a refinery anyways?

00:21:16.880 We've got 18 in Canada, haven't built one in 30 years.

00:21:19.840 Why would we, but why would you drill for oil in a country?

00:21:24.000 And, and, and this is consistent.

00:21:25.460 It's not just Canada.

00:21:26.340 It's the U S it's, uh, throughout Europe.

00:21:29.200 When they're telling you, we want to put an end to your, your product.

00:21:32.180 We don't want your product.

00:21:33.680 When there's protests that meet any kind of decision to expand oil production, despite the

00:21:39.480 fact that the existing production continues to drop, it's just a natural sort of phenomena

00:21:44.780 or a natural part is the well doesn't produce as much.

00:21:47.460 It ages out.

00:21:49.040 We weren't even keeping up to what we needed.

00:21:51.580 This is huge.

00:21:53.040 You know, did we not think that emerging markets wouldn't all of a sudden decide they need

00:21:57.420 energy to raise the lifestyle, the life, you know, um, standard of living for their people.

00:22:02.320 I mean, it's, it was an inevitable.

00:22:05.780 This isn't one where you go, gee, that's an unintended consequence.

00:22:08.580 No, that's one with anybody who got a C minus in first year economics would have understood.

00:22:13.120 You cannot restrict supply.

00:22:15.780 You have discouraged anyone from drilling.

00:22:18.480 Uh, and now you have demand picking up emerging market demand, obviously pandemics ending,

00:22:23.860 you know, put a lot of people back in, uh, demand.

00:22:27.400 The list is a long one.

00:22:28.560 So presto, you get these high energy prices that they were inevitable and they continue

00:22:33.660 to be.

00:22:34.400 Well, it's, it's because we have ideology and ideologues, uh, you know, governing our,

00:22:39.120 our policies clear.

00:22:40.220 They don't, they don't like energy, they're only going on gas.

00:22:42.140 And so they, you know, have these punitive bills, C-69, which recently got, um, struck

00:22:46.180 down by an Alberta superior court, uh, basically said, you know, you can't build a, uh, uh, energy

00:22:51.400 project like a pipeline, unless you, you know, do this sociological study on the gender 0.56

00:22:56.480 impact in the communities.

00:22:57.660 I mean, who would sign up to, uh, to, to build a project, you know, whether it's LNG or refineries

00:23:04.800 or anything when, when you have to jump through these ideological hoops, I think you're right.

00:23:08.660 It's not unintended.

00:23:09.540 It's, it's perfectly intended.

00:23:10.800 But anyway, I, sorry, sorry to interrupt.

00:23:12.360 I'll let you continue.

00:23:12.880 No, no, that's, that's, it's a great point and we're paying for it.

00:23:15.600 So, I mean, and I don't think people should sit there and go, yes, you can get dips.

00:23:19.660 If we cause a recession, I'll come back to your question on that in a second.

00:23:22.320 But if we cause a recession, obviously demand will go down.

00:23:25.380 Industrial demand will go down for energy.

00:23:27.600 So yeah, you can get a dip in prices, but we have a structural problem.

00:23:31.680 Like for example, you know, when, uh, the, the prices started to really grab the headlines.

00:23:36.260 I mean, it started well before this, but they started the headlines, uh, politically in say

00:23:41.420 February.

00:23:41.880 And we had Joe Biden going to Venezuela, you know, his people going to Venezuela, begging 0.98

00:23:46.020 for more production.

00:23:47.040 Like, are you kidding me?

00:23:48.240 They went to OPEC, OPEC plus saying, please increase your production.

00:23:52.320 Well, here's a little fact about OPEC there last month, eight out of 10 producers in OPEC

00:23:56.460 plus couldn't even meet their existing quotas.

00:23:59.820 It's just not so simple.

00:24:01.020 You don't have a switch.

00:24:01.980 You can flick, you know, Oh, just produce more.

00:24:04.560 Well, first of all, why would they, where's the capital investment going to come?

00:24:07.720 Where's the expertise?

00:24:08.940 I mean, the industry has shrunk in terms of expertise and across the board.

00:24:13.380 And then back to the other thing I mentioned, we have a refining problem.

00:24:17.440 Like none of us buy crude oil.

00:24:19.200 That's always a shock to people.

00:24:20.360 I say, you look at the crude price, but you've never bought any, you know, you bought

00:24:23.520 gasoline, you bought diesel or impacted by diesel, maybe protein, home heating oil, jet

00:24:29.980 fuel.

00:24:30.300 When we fly, all of that is a manufactured product.

00:24:33.740 Well, you need refineries to take crude oil and manufacture those various products we

00:24:38.600 make from petroleum.

00:24:39.960 We don't have enough refineries.

00:24:42.100 We don't build refineries.

00:24:43.660 But I mean, I'm going to, I'm going to kick in as much as a five to 15 billion have a sort

00:24:48.620 of a seven, eight, nine year lifespan.

00:24:50.940 Oh, but we're cutting out oil. 0.83

00:24:52.440 So we really won't need you in, you know, Greta Thunberg told me we didn't need you next

00:24:57.100 Wednesday, but let alone 2030 or 35, the numbers they start throwing out.

00:25:03.220 It's just so fundamental.

00:25:05.180 Nobody would invest in that stuff when you've told them you're not going to be

00:25:08.580 able to sell your product in whatever time frame.

00:25:11.440 And certainly they were talking 2030, 2035.

00:25:15.320 That's not a long enough to recoup. 0.64

00:25:16.760 I can't even get the darn thing open by 2030, you know?

00:25:20.040 So we're just living this result. 0.74

00:25:22.400 It's structural.

00:25:23.160 We've got a problem.

00:25:24.000 We better get used to paying more.

00:25:26.160 People are aware of gasoline.

00:25:27.540 They're not near as aware of diesel, which is at all time highs.

00:25:30.820 Now diesel's used in farming equipment.

00:25:32.980 Oh good.

00:25:33.340 More food price increases, you know, used in freight and trucking.

00:25:36.740 The list goes on.

00:25:38.400 And yeah, I guess my message is it's going to impact all of us.

00:25:42.720 And it's a direct result of government policy globally.

00:25:45.900 You know, the green revolution was unrealistic to say we can replace the fossil fuel grid with

00:25:52.820 renewable energy in three years or five years or 10 years.

00:25:57.620 I mean, there was nothing to support that claim.

00:26:01.060 And there's so much wrong with it.

00:26:02.140 I mean, I could just go on and on that it was just fundamentally incorrect.

00:26:05.700 And that's what we're living though.

00:26:07.800 That's what we're living is that kind of price increase.

00:26:10.600 So, you know me, I can keep going.

00:26:13.220 But I do want to not go over or miss your question about recession.

00:26:16.940 This is the big deal here.

00:26:18.440 You've got the central banks going.

00:26:20.560 The only thing we can do, we can't change supply of oil or energy.

00:26:24.920 We can't change, I think, the food dynamics.

00:26:27.360 We can't change any goods shortages.

00:26:29.960 China's lockdown is just opening up now, but that creates more shortage.

00:26:34.160 What we can do is make people not buy stuff by raising interest rates.

00:26:39.580 They were on the, you know, when they had record low rates, they were part of the problem

00:26:42.800 and pushing money in the system.

00:26:44.140 That's why housing went up.

00:26:45.200 I mean, that was the number one thing, giving me a one and a half percent five-year mortgage.

00:26:49.900 I'm a buyer, you know, and I was an investor because the rates were so low.

00:26:54.220 They want to make those higher.

00:26:55.700 So it discourages us from demand.

00:26:57.760 That's the only weapon they have.

00:26:59.840 Here's the problem.

00:27:01.320 So how high would rates have to get?

00:27:03.040 Mortgage rates have gone up significantly, you know, say 16, 18 months ago, say they're

00:27:06.880 at 1.7.

00:27:08.080 Now we're over 4% for a five-year fixed.

00:27:11.100 You know, 1.7 going back a year and a half, over 4%.

00:27:15.000 First time since 2010.

00:27:16.760 Will that choke off the housing market?

00:27:19.520 Will enough people say it's no longer affordable?

00:27:22.060 I'm out of here.

00:27:23.160 That's what they're looking at on the economy as a whole.

00:27:25.700 Obviously, housing is very important to our economy, but it's on the whole.

00:27:28.860 What interest rates do we have to move them to?

00:27:31.340 Where do we have to push them to to choke off the economy and cause a recession?

00:27:36.900 They don't want to cause a recession.

00:27:39.080 Think about this.

00:27:39.740 This is the dilemma they're in.

00:27:41.600 If I cause a recession, presto, government revenues go down.

00:27:44.620 Oh, but they've got record debts to service and interest rates for government have gone

00:27:49.300 up.

00:27:50.040 I can't have a recession.

00:27:52.160 That's the dilemma and the big, you know, they always talk we're going to have a soft

00:27:55.320 landing or the probabilities of soft landing.

00:27:57.600 Well, good luck with that.

00:27:58.700 It's not a dial.

00:28:00.260 It's not some little fixed thing that they turn like the temperature in my room.

00:28:04.040 No, they've missed it all the way up.

00:28:06.860 Keep in mind, our central banks told us we had transitory inflation right through December

00:28:12.380 of this past year.

00:28:13.200 And I'm going, well, the Roman empire was transitory too.

00:28:16.140 Good luck with that.

00:28:17.380 You know, we have structural problems.

00:28:19.340 And so they've got a lot wrong.

00:28:21.340 And now they're telling us, don't worry, we're going to get inflation back down to 2% in

00:28:26.980 three in two to three years.

00:28:28.460 And I'm going, yeah, what's the pain along the way?

00:28:31.560 So this is the dilemma.

00:28:33.380 There's no magic formula here.

00:28:35.020 How much, how high do rates have to get to choke the economy down to recession?

00:28:40.360 So we'll have to see.

00:28:42.020 Well, it's so interesting, Michael, because you kind of pick on up on two different areas

00:28:45.700 where we have these sort of expert class of technocrats who act like they can simply

00:28:50.240 change behavior, like you said, by turning a dial.

00:28:52.500 Like, oh, we can solve global warming or climate change.

00:28:55.640 We can change the Earth's temperature on a dial.

00:28:57.840 All we have to do is completely redesign the energy system, you know, from scratch.

00:29:02.300 And lo and behold, that just doesn't work.

00:29:03.840 And we're all paying for that now.

00:29:04.880 And I get the same sense when I'm reading, you know, my financial updates and financial

00:29:09.500 news.

00:29:09.900 It's like, oh, this is a delicate balance between, you know, interest rates and inflation

00:29:13.760 and the unemployment rate.

00:29:14.940 And again, acting like there's these central planners that have all of the information

00:29:19.520 and all of the knowledge needed to, you know, manage a very, very complex economy.

00:29:24.920 And I can't help but wondering and thinking, you know, this is the problem in our society

00:29:30.060 is that you have these experts and these elites who treat everything like it's a blank slate

00:29:34.900 and they can just design it perfectly without really being in touch with the concerns and

00:29:40.820 demands of a variety of people.

00:29:41.680 I think this is why we see so many populist uprisings and things like the trucker convoy

00:29:45.860 because people are fed up with these experts and elites looking down their nose, telling

00:29:49.380 them what to do without really understanding their situation.

00:29:52.800 And so I wonder, because I know we've been talking about this a little bit, but you give

00:30:00.120 financial advice to families, you know, that statistic I mentioned earlier about 49% of

00:30:04.680 Canadians were within $200 of being unable to pay their monthly bills.

00:30:09.420 Like what can everyday Canadians do at this point?

00:30:13.500 What's your advice to like a young family that's looking to buy a house or a young family

00:30:17.600 looking to save up or, you know, just manage to get through whatever it is that we're about

00:30:24.100 to get through?

00:30:24.840 What advice would you give to them?

00:30:27.080 It's difficult because first of all, it's if somebody is a low income, that's who gets

00:30:31.880 impacted.

00:30:32.380 We knew that, excuse me, going in.

00:30:34.100 And as we were alluding to earlier, that level of what's considered, you know, full impact

00:30:38.120 of the inflation in a difficult way, changing your lifestyle has moved way up the income scale.

00:30:42.740 Now we're about half of Canadians are impacted in a way that is changing their lives.

00:30:47.620 It's really tough for them because the structural problems that we've got are real.

00:30:53.880 Keep in mind, even a year from now, if oil, say oil's at, let's make an easy number for

00:30:59.540 us, $100 today.

00:31:01.500 And that's way up, obviously, from sort of the $60 range, just going back four or five

00:31:07.360 months and way more than a year ago.

00:31:10.000 But a year from now, let's say oil's at $115.

00:31:13.260 Well, the inflation will be reported as $5 increase on the $110.

00:31:19.780 You know, it's compared to the previous year.

00:31:23.200 So when we get all these lofty prices, inflation rate will probably go down.

00:31:28.020 We're not going to keep going up at 40% a year on something.

00:31:30.980 You know, so they're really stuck in this.

00:31:33.980 The one thing they're also measuring, and I want people to understand this, what you're

00:31:37.780 measuring is those paper things called dollars don't buy you as much.

00:31:41.400 That's what we're really measuring.

00:31:43.160 Inevitable consequence.

00:31:44.500 When you produce a lot of something, usually the price goes down.

00:31:47.940 So we produced, you know, hundreds of billions of dollars.

00:31:52.180 No wonder the value of them, the purchasing power went down.

00:31:55.880 And that's what's happened.

00:31:56.940 So their money doesn't buy as much.

00:32:00.060 And, you know, we were chatting before where I'm just saying it's really interesting revelation

00:32:04.700 for people that we say, hey, the Canadian dollar is 78 cents against the U.S. dollar.

00:32:11.040 I'm going, who cares?

00:32:12.280 I don't eat U.S. dollars.

00:32:14.240 I don't live in a U.S. dollar.

00:32:16.180 That's not the relevant measure of your currency.

00:32:19.280 It's what it can buy.

00:32:20.620 And we know it's going to buy a heck of a lot less food coming up in the next year.

00:32:25.280 You know, it's, you know, if you're wanting to buy lumber for a deck, you know, you're

00:32:28.920 building, whatever it is, it doesn't buy as much stuff.

00:32:32.220 And so if you're just at that 200, you know, like you're breaking even.

00:32:36.780 And that's a significant number.

00:32:38.300 When someone says I'm within, you know, inflation rates at 6%, keep in mind what that actually

00:32:43.140 means to people.

00:32:44.340 It means if you're the average Canadian, you probably have to spend about $4,000 more

00:32:50.340 for the same stuff you bought a year ago, if that keeps going at that, say, 6% rate.

00:32:56.660 And then, wait a second, that's after-tax dollars.

00:33:00.020 So I got to make like $5,500, pay $1,500 in income tax.

00:33:04.820 Oh, now I've got that $4,000 left over.

00:33:06.960 That's the challenge.

00:33:08.480 And there's no easy way, easy, there's no way out, actually.

00:33:11.720 People's lifestyles are going to change.

00:33:13.620 When you have extra money, you know, so you're an investor.

00:33:17.020 My advice has been, since February 2020, buy commodities, buy stuff.

00:33:22.640 Why?

00:33:23.080 Because, and you can see, it's been a great call, by the way.

00:33:26.820 It's just, that's the way it is.

00:33:28.380 Because it's the stuff that's getting, compared to our dollars, getting worth more and more

00:33:34.220 and more.

00:33:34.980 And I still believe that.

00:33:36.400 I'm still a big fan of oil as an investment, Canadian oil, because we still undervalue it.

00:33:41.320 But it's not just that.

00:33:42.700 If we're going to do the EV revolution, and I believe we are politically, well, you need

00:33:47.040 a lot more copper.

00:33:47.940 I mean, we're not in the ballpark of, and I saw the Globe and Mail just put in an article

00:33:52.360 a day or two ago, and I was laughing.

00:33:54.280 I said, I've been talking about this for two years.

00:33:56.400 Where's your lithium?

00:33:57.400 Where's your cobalt?

00:33:58.480 Where's your copper?

00:33:59.580 Where's your nickel?

00:34:01.160 You know, that's how you get electric vehicles.

00:34:03.480 You need lithium for batteries, you know, or wind turbines.

00:34:06.520 We're not, we're not even in the ballpark of discussing, how do you increase the production?

00:34:12.160 How do we obtain those minerals and metals?

00:34:14.260 And yeah, it's, so I still like the switch into those material things to protect my purchasing

00:34:21.980 power of the dollar.

00:34:23.380 And I'll give you one last example, just to, I'm not, I don't want to confuse people.

00:34:27.580 Let's say you were lucky to have $10,000 and you had it two years ago.

00:34:31.080 Would you rather have 10,000 worth of oil starting two years ago or 10,000 worth of dollars

00:34:35.080 start two years ago, be way better ahead with oil.

00:34:38.740 And yeah, absolutely.

00:34:41.340 And I mean, to your point, you know, you're, you're making a salary and, you know, you don't

00:34:45.800 get a raise necessarily every year.

00:34:47.380 And all of a sudden your salary last year is, is worth, to your point, $15,000 less or $12,000

00:34:53.080 less because of the cost of living increases and taxes.

00:34:55.940 And there is a great irony, Michael, in the fact that we have a political class and an

00:35:01.300 environmentalist class that, that, that sits in rails against energy and oil, Canadian

00:35:06.160 oil.

00:35:07.140 And yet when the oil price goes up, you know, Justin Trudeau benefits because he gets more

00:35:10.880 revenue and, you know, we have Alberta balancing its budgets because, because of that.

00:35:15.440 So, you know, that, that, that, that, that, the rising commodity prices does help the government,

00:35:21.080 helps investors as well.

00:35:22.540 And just a final point, you know, the environmentalist movement doesn't like Canadian oil sands.

00:35:26.820 What, what do they think about all the mining of all the chemicals that you just mentioned

00:35:30.160 that are necessary to support their, you know, the worshiped electric vehicles and wind turbines

00:35:36.060 is something that they never, never seem to want to talk about or address, but it's, it's

00:35:39.820 an obvious contradiction and a bit of a hypocrisy from my perspective.

00:35:43.180 And a fundamental contradiction.

00:35:44.520 I agree with you.

00:35:45.320 And I've said, why is it so difficult for people who support renewable energy, have a great

00:35:49.300 concern on climate change?

00:35:50.440 Fair enough.

00:35:51.060 Why is it so difficult for them to acknowledge that that means by fact that you need a lot of

00:35:56.800 more and these raw materials to actually produce that. 0.87

00:36:00.340 I mean, I have no idea why they cannot bring themselves.

00:36:03.140 And that's why we've had, come on, we've been talking climate change 20 years saying

00:36:07.200 renewable, 20 plus, and we still don't have any plan whatsoever to actually get it done.

00:36:12.880 That's like the guy, you know, who says, I'm building a mansion, I'm building a heck of

00:36:16.300 a house.

00:36:16.880 And you keep saying, well, where are you going to get the materials?

00:36:19.700 Oh, well, I'm building a mansion.

00:36:21.840 I'm building a house.

00:36:22.700 You know, there's never any response to that.

00:36:26.740 And, uh, and that's why the EV revolution continues to be delayed.

00:36:30.960 You know, and if that's your thing, you should be mad about that.

00:36:33.180 If that's your, if climate change is your thing, you should be angry that we have no plans to

00:36:37.720 actually institute it.

00:36:39.240 You know, the odd electric vehicle or giving a $5,000 rebate isn't the challenge.

00:36:43.180 If you're going to impact climate change, it is this massive amount of raw materials.

00:36:48.360 And where's the energy coming?

00:36:50.240 Oh, fossil fuels, diesel is going to power those machines to create the wood turbine or

00:36:55.440 to mine.

00:36:56.480 And we just haven't had a mature conversation about it.

00:36:59.840 And we're starting to live the results in higher prices.

00:37:02.920 That's just one example of the lack of mature conversation on that subject.

00:37:07.580 Uh, I couldn't agree more.

00:37:09.160 We produced a mini documentary here at True North, uh, I guess it was two years ago now

00:37:12.420 called Green Hypocrisy. 0.71

00:37:13.400 One of the episodes was dedicated entirely to trying to understand the supply chain and

00:37:18.500 the production of an electric vehicle, where it comes from, the mining activities, all

00:37:22.700 that kind of thing.

00:37:23.240 And, and, you know, you look at sort of a, a holistic, uh, carbon footprint of producing

00:37:28.420 one of these things versus the lifetime of, uh, of, of, of a regular vehicle.

00:37:32.600 And, and, and, you know, it's, it's not clear that one of them is, is better or worse from

00:37:37.040 the environment.

00:37:37.460 And, and I'm glad that you brought that up because it's certainly an important conversation,

00:37:40.960 uh, to have.

00:37:42.320 Uh, one more thing here, because it's one of my things and I appreciate people have

00:37:46.220 different priorities.

00:37:47.440 Mine is, I don't like starving people to death.

00:37:49.560 And it's something I've been talking about the simple relationship between the price of

00:37:55.480 natural gas and two of the components that are used for fertilizer, ammonia and urea.

00:38:00.820 So when natural gas prices went to the roof as a direct result of government policy, people

00:38:07.780 didn't make that connection.

00:38:08.980 That meant fertilizer prices went, fertilizer prices are, are more than double in the last

00:38:14.020 year because the components of the, of that tripe nitrogen based, there's also potash too.

00:38:18.760 Uh, but you know, huge amount of the supply of fertilizer is impacted the price of ammonia.

00:38:24.220 And they, I get the impression they didn't even know that like literally it's so superficial

00:38:29.440 that we had leaders putting in policies that guaranteed higher natural gas prices, which

00:38:34.300 we are living right now.

00:38:35.620 Well, and this is well before Ukraine, I mean, we're talking in September, some bright people

00:38:40.920 were writing about the food crisis.

00:38:42.480 I'm talking head of fertilizer plants saying energy prices were so high in September, October,

00:38:46.960 we're cutting back production.

00:38:48.620 Guess what happens?

00:38:49.860 Emerging markets don't use as much fertilizer when you've just doubled the cost.

00:38:53.680 If they can get ahold of some, we are going to have lower crop yields.

00:38:57.280 And literally starvation is in the playbook right now, 193 million people in the world

00:39:03.020 are on the edge of starvation.

00:39:05.600 You know, they're that little precipice we're pushing them over.

00:39:08.700 What killed me is that we have decision makers.

00:39:10.840 I don't think who knew that fundamental, you know, relationship between natural gas prices

00:39:17.420 and, you know, fertilizer.

00:39:19.480 Cause I can't believe they sat there and said, I got a way to get those fertilizer prices up.

00:39:23.000 We can really crush some people.

00:39:24.780 So yes, we're going to get higher food prices.

00:39:26.780 Diesel increase is also impacting that because that's how you run your equipment on a farm.

00:39:31.660 Yeah, it's a very difficult situation and it all comes back to that same stuff.

00:39:35.660 Well, it's unconscionable that that's happening.

00:39:38.000 And we do see the odd reports here and there about food shortages that it's hard to wrap

00:39:41.660 your head around that living in North America and sort of land of abundance.

00:39:45.780 But you're absolutely right to point that out.

00:39:47.900 It's incredibly bleak.

00:39:50.020 And again, our leaders need to be held much more accountable for the decisions that they make.

00:39:53.900 Well, Michael Campbell, it's really a pleasure to have you on the show.

00:39:56.280 I was so pleased to be invited to join your podcast.

00:39:58.680 I've been listening to you on the radio for a very long time.

00:40:01.160 My dad listens regularly as well.

00:40:03.560 And you've been a staple in our household.

00:40:05.400 So it's an honor for you to join the show.

00:40:07.400 And I hope I hope that you'll come back and we can continue to break down some of these big, big issues.

00:40:13.000 So I really appreciate your time, Michael Campbell.

00:40:14.840 He is the host of Money Talks.

00:40:16.760 And thank you for joining us.

00:40:18.440 Absolutely.

00:40:19.480 My pleasure.

00:40:20.040 These are important subjects.

00:40:21.480 They're impacting us directly to bring to people's attention.

00:40:23.960 Excellent.

00:40:25.560 All right.

00:40:25.880 Thank you so much for joining us.

00:40:27.080 I'm Candice Malcolm, and this is The Candice Malcolm Show.

00:40:30.280 for you.

00:40:46.200 Let's meet you in the room.

00:40:46.760 I'm Candice Malcolm, and this is Isabella Luke's area.

Juno News - May 18, 2022

How to cope with the coming recession in Canada (Ft. Michael Campbell)

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript