Juno News - How vodka can reduce carbon emissions without a carbon tax

00:00:00.980 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:00:05.260 Welcome back to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:00:07.740 You may remember a couple of weeks ago we did a panel on this very show

00:00:12.020 talking about the federal government's so-called just transition

00:00:15.560 and we decided to tell the other side of the story

00:00:18.000 and shine a light on the work that the oil and gas sector is doing

00:00:22.360 to achieve what the government says are its stated objectives

00:00:25.820 at reducing the almighty emission tally

00:00:28.120 that is one of the things that Canada has committed us to doing as a country

00:00:32.480 with the Paris Agreement and now with the Glasgow Agreement

00:00:35.440 and I've had some great feedback from listeners and viewers of that panel

00:00:38.760 amazed that all of these evil scary oil and gas companies

00:00:42.980 were doing all these things that you just never hear about in the mainstream media.

00:00:47.300 Well it isn't just the oil and gas sector.

00:00:49.480 Industry itself is taking one thing that we're told is that the bad guy of industry

00:00:54.800 carbon dioxide and turning it into lots of really cool things.

00:00:58.620 One in particular that I think we all can enjoy perhaps at the end of the week

00:01:02.280 but I want to talk about this with Colin Craig from secondstreet.org

00:01:05.360 which has published this great report

00:01:07.280 25 Innovative Carbon Tech Examples.

00:01:10.760 Colin it's good to talk to you.

00:01:11.800 Thanks for coming on today.

00:01:13.300 Well thanks for having me Andrew.

00:01:15.220 So let's start with the first question here.

00:01:17.120 Why did you decide to do the dive into this

00:01:19.180 and start pulling out all these examples?

00:01:20.980 Some of which I will say and we'll get into this very shortly

00:01:24.140 are on the more obscure side one might say.

00:01:26.980 Well you know I kept hearing anecdotally about these really cool things

00:01:30.640 that entrepreneurs were creating with carbon dioxide

00:01:33.700 instead of letting it release up into the atmosphere

00:01:36.520 and then I thought you know let's see if we can do a report on this

00:01:39.680 see how much is out there

00:01:40.840 and as you alluded to our reports called 25 Examples

00:01:44.680 we found lots of really cool things that entrepreneurs are doing

00:01:48.140 and we did this also because so much of the discussion about climate change in Canada

00:01:52.100 it's doom and gloom, it's pessimistic.

00:01:55.180 I don't think that's how leaders should be approaching a problem.

00:01:57.620 I think they need to approach things with optimism

00:02:00.080 and spread the good news stories that are out there

00:02:02.940 so that we can inspire more people to be looking at this kind of research and work.

00:02:07.860 Yeah and just to set the stage here with the political agenda

00:02:10.780 we originally had commitments that Canada made under the Paris Agreement

00:02:14.080 to reduce our CO2 emissions by about 30 percent

00:02:17.860 Justin Trudeau kind of on the back of a napkin

00:02:20.460 changed that about a year ago to say 40 to 45 percent

00:02:23.800 reducing emissions is something that can be achieved in a couple of different ways

00:02:28.260 you can actually stop producing

00:02:30.160 or conceivably you could take what you are producing

00:02:33.500 and take it out of the atmosphere and apply it to other things

00:02:36.840 and these 25 items on your list

00:02:39.040 they fall into that latter category, do they not?

00:02:41.340 Yeah certainly most of them do

00:02:43.980 it's taking CO2 like you say

00:02:46.120 instead of letting it go into the atmosphere

00:02:48.760 you make something with it

00:02:50.140 so one of the examples that I love

00:02:52.520 is from a company in New York

00:02:54.180 it's called Air Company

00:02:55.040 I'll just put it right here for a moment so you can see it

00:02:57.120 it's vodka

00:02:58.540 and what they've done is they've found a way to make vodka

00:03:02.720 using two ingredients

00:03:04.120 carbon dioxide and water

00:03:06.820 and that's it

00:03:07.920 it's really amazing how they've done this

00:03:10.160 and if you think about the formula for ethanol

00:03:12.100 which is the main ingredient in vodka

00:03:14.120 it's made up of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen atoms

00:03:17.940 and you can find those three atoms in H2O and CO2

00:03:22.580 so they found a way to take those two ingredients so to speak

00:03:27.360 and make vodka out of it

00:03:29.060 but there's certainly lots of other really interesting things

00:03:31.780 that entrepreneurs are doing

00:03:32.740 not just outside of Canada

00:03:35.400 certainly in Canada's borders

00:03:36.740 including a lot in Calgary

00:03:38.020 just to go back to the vodka for a moment here

00:03:41.480 we may not get off the vodka

00:03:42.640 but just for a moment at least

00:03:44.100 I mean we could

00:03:44.920 if we nationalize this

00:03:46.340 we could probably achieve the 45% reduction in CO2 right there

00:03:50.720 I could probably account for about 15% of that some days

00:03:53.920 we just have to replace everyone's drinks at the dinner table with vodka

00:03:57.360 and then we'll be fine

00:03:58.480 forget about Tim Hortons

00:03:59.860 our new national drink is air vodka

00:04:02.060 the CO2 capturing vodka

00:04:03.900 okay

00:04:04.280 is that the only edible one on the list?

00:04:06.720 no actually there's another really cool one that

00:04:10.300 it's a company in Ontario actually

00:04:12.100 it's called Pond Technologies

00:04:13.480 and what they've done

00:04:15.160 it's fascinating

00:04:16.040 I love it

00:04:16.580 what they're doing is

00:04:17.340 they're taking the exhaust that would come out of say like a smokestack

00:04:21.800 and they are channeling that CO2 that's coming out

00:04:25.400 they use some pipes

00:04:26.400 they put it into a tank

00:04:27.760 the tank is full of algae

00:04:29.760 and the algae eat the CO2

00:04:32.160 for lack of a better word

00:04:33.480 I'm not a chemist

00:04:34.160 they basically consume it

00:04:35.500 they're able to grow

00:04:36.340 and then eventually what that company does is it processes the algae

00:04:40.280 and then they can turn it into all kinds of different products

00:04:43.320 they're trying to turn it into biofuels

00:04:45.660 bioplastics

00:04:46.780 nutraceuticals

00:04:48.620 and then including one ingredient

00:04:50.600 phycocyanide

00:04:52.780 I believe is how you pronounce it

00:04:53.920 and it's basically blue food coloring

00:04:56.640 so that blue food coloring is used in things like M&M's

00:05:00.420 so that's another great example

00:05:02.140 I guess we'll have vodka to drink

00:05:04.100 we'll have blue M&M's for dinner

00:05:06.020 and then we're going to solve climate change

00:05:08.180 you know it's funny

00:05:10.120 because obviously these are just a couple of novel examples here

00:05:13.940 and I don't think we'll go through the whole list at 25

00:05:16.240 we'll post a link to it here

00:05:17.960 but there are some that are pretty critical items

00:05:20.300 you've got batteries that are in here

00:05:22.300 you've got bioplastics as well

00:05:25.160 I mean we always hear about how packaging

00:05:27.380 is supposed to be the great nemesis

00:05:28.880 of environmental concerns

00:05:31.160 well here's a way to kill two birds with one stone right there

00:05:33.560 start using CO2 in the production of packaging

00:05:36.580 yeah

00:05:37.380 and one I love is

00:05:39.000 it's a company in Calgary

00:05:40.220 they're starting to make carbon nanofibers with CO2

00:05:45.060 and as the name suggests

00:05:46.980 it has carbon in it

00:05:48.200 you obviously can get carbon from CO2

00:05:50.160 and we already use as a society carbon nanofibers

00:05:54.600 you'll find them in all kinds of different products

00:05:56.500 so if you pick up a lightweight badminton racket

00:05:58.640 you'll probably see sometimes that on the racket

00:06:02.120 it'll say that it's made with carbon graphite

00:06:04.680 or carbon fiber or whatever

00:06:05.980 bicycle frames

00:06:08.400 those are lightweight

00:06:09.340 so we're already using them

00:06:11.100 the difference now is that this company is able to make that material

00:06:14.040 using captured CO2

00:06:15.900 again instead of letting it go into the atmosphere

00:06:18.220 so there are so many amazing things that entrepreneurs are doing

00:06:21.780 with capturing CO2

00:06:24.040 I think we need to talk about it more

00:06:25.460 you know I hear these stories about kids in schools

00:06:27.920 that are growing

00:06:29.480 they're having anxiety problems

00:06:31.360 and other mental health issues

00:06:33.500 because of climate change

00:06:34.540 and I think my goodness

00:06:35.380 like tell them the good news stories

00:06:37.180 like you know that's not leadership

00:06:38.640 to just scare all these kids

00:06:40.580 give them some hope

00:06:41.940 why don't we try and encourage them

00:06:43.220 to be the next generation of engineers

00:06:44.940 engineers that can start to find other cool ways of using CO2

00:06:48.720 yeah and the one that jumped out at me too

00:06:51.480 again just on an amusing note

00:06:52.860 is yoga mats

00:06:54.020 and the people that are using those yoga mats

00:06:56.660 I think demographically

00:06:58.020 are the most likely to think that

00:06:59.660 CO2 is again this thing that we need to just completely purge

00:07:03.280 and eradicate

00:07:03.960 great another way to kill two birds with one stone

00:07:06.140 yeah it's pretty cool

00:07:09.000 we actually met with the company recently

00:07:10.720 that was making some of the material for those yoga mats

00:07:13.120 and in that case you know the whole yoga mat material

00:07:15.900 is not from carbon dioxide

00:07:17.360 but it's part of it

00:07:19.080 it's an ingredient that they're able to use for that

00:07:22.080 and I like to say there's often ways

00:07:23.960 that you can kill two birds with one stone

00:07:25.900 with what these entrepreneurs are doing

00:07:28.420 there's a great Calgary story here

00:07:29.960 a company called Clean O2

00:07:31.340 where they are able to take

00:07:33.740 it was I believe it was created by

00:07:36.180 someone in the sort of plumbing and heating and ventilation sector

00:07:39.640 they thought well why are we letting all this CO2

00:07:42.300 go into the atmosphere

00:07:43.100 let's capture it

00:07:44.740 they found a way to capture it

00:07:46.240 and create a product that's used for soap

00:07:48.580 so you can use soap that's made from CO2

00:07:52.480 and the thing I like about this is that

00:07:54.860 you have politicians often using the word pollution

00:07:57.940 and they're really trying to demonize the word

00:07:59.960 carbon dioxide and carbon

00:08:02.140 and it's you know entrepreneurs are kind of looking at it

00:08:04.680 a little bit more level-headed

00:08:06.380 and they're saying well wait a second

00:08:07.480 carbon is a material that's in everything

00:08:09.740 or not everything but a lot of different things

00:08:11.480 including humans

00:08:12.340 and it's just a resource that we can make stuff with

00:08:16.420 so I think entrepreneurs are the ones

00:08:18.320 who are really taking the leadership role

00:08:20.060 in the issue of climate change

00:08:21.920 and reducing emissions

00:08:22.840 rather than politicians

00:08:24.420 that so often are flying off the handle

00:08:26.320 they're using you know inflammatory language in that

00:08:30.100 so you know in our policy brief

00:08:32.240 we talk about all kinds of different things

00:08:33.700 including you know as you talked about

00:08:35.840 at the beginning of your show

00:08:36.700 just people in the oil and gas industry

00:08:38.600 being really supportive of the sector

00:08:40.460 the you know I mentioned Air Company

00:08:42.880 the New York company that made the vodka

00:08:45.100 well they were a finalist in an X Prize

00:08:49.120 that was co-sponsored by the Canadian Oil Sands Innovation Alliance

00:08:52.820 so you're seeing lots of examples like that

00:08:55.080 where industry is supporting these entrepreneurs

00:08:58.200 and they're helping these companies out

00:08:59.720 they want to do what they think is best for the environment

00:09:02.360 the Canadian Gas Association

00:09:04.420 they've been heavily supportive of efforts by industry

00:09:07.800 to try to reduce emissions

00:09:10.400 and up-and-coming startups and that

00:09:12.160 so you know it's really on this issue

00:09:15.180 I think the leadership that we need to see

00:09:17.340 is happening by the private sector

00:09:19.200 it's happening by entrepreneurs

00:09:21.620 and it's how we've addressed past environmental challenges

00:09:24.780 if you look throughout history

00:09:25.880 it's not by politicians pounding their fists

00:09:27.980 it's by entrepreneurs finding a way

00:09:30.140 to address the issue at hand

00:09:31.620 yeah and that panel that I did a couple of weeks ago

00:09:35.400 we had a couple of entrepreneurs

00:09:37.000 that have been doing a lot in this space

00:09:38.760 and one of the things that was most interesting to me about this

00:09:42.400 is that they're getting virtually no government support

00:09:45.160 now I should say as true entrepreneurs

00:09:47.180 they aren't looking for government support

00:09:48.820 but if the government is saying that this is the top priority

00:09:51.900 it would be great to look at

00:09:53.080 instead of reinventing the wheel

00:09:54.820 organizations and entrepreneurs and investors

00:09:57.480 that are already doing things

00:09:58.900 that are working towards that stated objective

00:10:01.400 and the point that I think a lot of listeners took away from that

00:10:04.620 and certainly I did as the moderator

00:10:06.640 was that the government isn't really looking for true solutions to this

00:10:10.560 they're looking for basically justification to declare a war

00:10:13.940 on this oil and gas sector

00:10:15.580 and I'm wondering if in the conversations you've had

00:10:18.200 with entrepreneurs and startups that are on this list

00:10:20.720 if that's true their story as well

00:10:22.100 where they're kind of doing this alone

00:10:23.560 in spite of government

00:10:25.480 or certainly without government

00:10:26.920 yeah you know I think there has been some cases

00:10:29.900 where they have received support from government

00:10:32.240 a lot of entrepreneurs like you say

00:10:33.740 they're I think naturally have a mindset

00:10:36.120 where they don't need

00:10:37.080 they're not looking around for government handouts

00:10:39.480 I actually think there is a role for government

00:10:41.420 to support industry with this

00:10:45.340 and I think there's a few things that government can do

00:10:48.020 that I think a lot of people

00:10:49.260 across the political spectrum would support

00:10:51.620 myself I don't think we need as much government

00:10:53.680 in our lives as we have

00:10:54.800 but I think there's a role for government here

00:10:56.200 it could be something as simple as

00:10:57.780 you know you often see the federal government

00:10:59.860 spending millions of dollars each year

00:11:02.360 on research grants in the post-secondary sector

00:11:04.680 when you go through that list

00:11:06.220 there's a lot of really crazy stuff

00:11:07.960 it's not a priority

00:11:09.160 what they could do is say

00:11:11.060 okay if we're going to spend this money

00:11:12.380 on research grants in the post-secondary sector

00:11:14.640 well then put it towards the carbon capture issue

00:11:17.920 because you keep telling us that it's a crisis

00:11:19.960 well if it's a crisis that's where you should be

00:11:22.140 diverting your resources 0.71

00:11:23.120 and we talked about a couple of the silly examples

00:11:25.800 in our report

00:11:26.520 I think if your listeners and viewers go through

00:11:28.740 they'd agree that it's the things that Ottawa spends money on

00:11:31.720 in that sector

00:11:32.260 it's not necessarily a priority

00:11:34.700 so that's one way Ottawa could support the sector

00:11:37.240 without spending more money

00:11:38.220 just take the existing money

00:11:39.620 and redirect it towards this issue

00:11:41.680 it could even be something as simple as

00:11:44.280 drawing attention to it

00:11:45.400 I mean our politicians have huge social media followings

00:11:47.980 talk about it

00:11:49.020 talk about the companies in your city

00:11:50.840 your town

00:11:51.280 your constituency

00:11:52.140 whatever

00:11:52.560 that are doing these things

00:11:54.080 so that they get more publicity and attention

00:11:56.020 and from that they might even

00:11:57.160 these companies might even be able to get

00:11:58.780 some venture capital raise

00:12:00.060 from the private sector

00:12:01.420 so I think there are things

00:12:02.400 yeah don't just demonize the entire space

00:12:04.520 which is I think what's happening now

00:12:05.980 yeah exactly

00:12:07.160 so you know

00:12:07.980 I think there's a role for government to help out

00:12:10.140 it doesn't always have to be the one

00:12:11.320 they're cutting a big check

00:12:12.380 but you know

00:12:14.500 there's things that can be done there

00:12:16.400 and another idea in the report

00:12:18.220 that I thought as well

00:12:19.120 was something that would certainly conform

00:12:21.080 with my goals for government

00:12:23.060 keeping it small and pro-industry

00:12:24.920 and that was just offering tax credits

00:12:26.480 for companies that are doing things

00:12:28.960 in the carbon capture space

00:12:30.580 and this is logical

00:12:31.680 if we're going to be penalizing

00:12:32.900 through a carbon tax large emitters

00:12:35.160 why would we not incentivize

00:12:36.800 to companies that are doing things

00:12:38.180 to actually have a net negative impact

00:12:40.640 on emissions

00:12:41.160 not just net zero

00:12:42.760 but net negative

00:12:43.440 which is what these companies are doing

00:12:45.160 yeah and that's certainly one

00:12:47.340 one thing that can be done

00:12:48.380 Ottawa's looking at bringing in a credit

00:12:50.500 they're kind of at a consultation stage

00:12:52.280 they have said that they're going to be bringing this in

00:12:57.280 I forget the amount

00:12:58.620 it's somewhere around 30 megatons

00:13:00.720 is what they're talking about

00:13:03.020 supporting

00:13:03.660 well the amount that Canada emits each year

00:13:07.580 in carbon dioxide

00:13:08.740 it's over 700 megatons

00:13:11.240 so they're saying

00:13:12.360 well we're going to do this

00:13:13.480 this is the size of the problem

00:13:15.380 well then make that tax credit

00:13:17.200 much more available

00:13:19.160 to a larger swath

00:13:20.640 so that you can actually start

00:13:21.700 to address that issue

00:13:22.920 in a more meaningful way

00:13:24.600 rather than

00:13:25.640 just sort of this

00:13:26.640 token little thing

00:13:27.660 so we'll have to wait

00:13:28.380 and see what kind of details

00:13:29.520 Ottawa brings forward

00:13:30.860 with that plan

00:13:31.660 but I think there's enormous potential

00:13:33.640 in this sector

00:13:34.480 entrepreneurs are pretty amazing

00:13:37.140 at addressing this

00:13:37.880 as we've seen

00:13:38.500 and we've talked about

00:13:39.260 vodka and badminton rackets

00:13:40.620 another great one is diamonds

00:13:41.680 you know there's a company in New York

00:13:43.120 that's making diamonds from CO2

00:13:44.700 so there's all kinds of wild

00:13:46.460 and amazing things

00:13:48.040 that entrepreneurs are doing

00:13:49.020 and I think governments

00:13:50.540 shouldn't underestimate

00:13:51.840 what they can do

00:13:53.140 the report over at

00:13:55.260 secondstreet.org

00:13:56.120 25 innovative carbon tech examples

00:13:58.840 the co-author

00:14:00.200 president of

00:14:00.960 secondstreet.org

00:14:01.780 Colin Craig joins me

00:14:02.760 Colin always a pleasure

00:14:03.620 to talk to you

00:14:04.160 I can't

00:14:04.800 I can't toast

00:14:05.940 your work with a

00:14:07.000 glass of air vodka yet

00:14:08.160 I'll have to order mine

00:14:08.920 but I do appreciate you

00:14:10.200 putting this together

00:14:10.860 and coming on today

00:14:11.660 yeah thanks a lot

00:14:12.900 Andrew

00:14:13.080 appreciate your time

00:14:13.940 and helping to spread the word

00:14:15.180 about what's happening

00:14:16.100 thanks for listening

00:14:17.560 to the Andrew Lawton show

00:14:18.760 support the program

00:14:19.820 by donating to True North

00:14:21.040 at www.tnc.news

Juno News - November 24, 2021

How vodka can reduce carbon emissions without a carbon tax

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