Juno News - How will the Emergencies Act hearings unfold？ (Ft. Eva Chipiuk)

00:00:00.000 hey everybody welcome back I hope you all had a great Thanksgiving and got to spend time with

00:00:23.400 friends and family I had a great Thanksgiving weekend I feel well rested and ready to do more

00:00:29.120 podcasting so without any further delay let's jump into this week's show starting October 13th a

00:00:36.600 public inquiry into the Trudeau government's unprecedented use of the emergencies act

00:00:41.680 during the freedom convoy protests last winter will begin public hearings dozens of witnesses

00:00:48.060 are expected to take the stand including Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and prominent convoy

00:00:53.240 organizers like Tamara Leach and Chris Barber recall that the Trudeau government invoked the

00:00:59.400 emergencies act on February 14th to evict trucks and protesters who were in downtown Ottawa they were

00:01:07.400 protesting the federal government's vaccine mandates for travel and for the civil service

00:01:13.760 provincial lockdowns and other restrictions the emergency measures granted police extraordinary

00:01:20.320 temporary powers to clear people out of downtown Ottawa and allowed banks to freeze the accounts of

00:01:27.360 some of those who had donated to the protests this commission is the only opportunity Canadians will

00:01:34.800 have for what we hope to be an impartial inquiry into the circumstances that led the Trudeau government

00:01:41.140 to invoke the emergencies act only the fourth time in Canada's history and only

00:01:48.180 the second in peacetime that a government of Canada has invoked these incredibly draconian powers that

00:01:53.940 curtailed our civil liberties as we know as I mentioned earlier it led to the freezing of bank accounts of

00:02:00.020 people who had given just a few bucks to the convoy and the convoy itself was removed forcibly as snipers and

00:02:06.260 helicopters patrolled I was there witnessing all of this and I hadn't seen anything like this in real

00:02:12.580 life except in the movies now the law under which the emergency was invoked requires the government to

00:02:18.980 set up this commission which will look at whether the government's rationale for invoking the emergency

00:02:24.340 made sense this commission should not be confused with the parliamentary committee which is also tasked with

00:02:30.500 looking at the emergency now that committee splits on partisan lines dominated by the liberal ndp alliance

00:02:38.020 so we know already they're not going to find anything wrong happened our best hope really is this

00:02:44.580 independent commission today's guest has a great deal to say about the work of this commission and

00:02:50.980 is possibly even speaking before the commission as it gathers testimony please welcome eva chipiok to the show

00:02:58.900 she is an edmonton based lawyer with the justice center for constitutional freedoms uh and worked with

00:03:05.220 keith wilson another lawyer who represented uh the freedom convoy protests and they both more recently

00:03:11.940 represented brian peckford's challenge to the federal vaccine mandate for travel so please welcome eva to the show

00:03:20.340 hey eva welcome to my show uh so i wanted to chat with you about the upcoming public order

00:03:28.260 emergency commission um and i saw you tweeting the other day and you said that this the public order

00:03:36.900 emergency commission is a great opportunity for canadians to watch our democracy in action and

00:03:42.900 to learn as the testimony proceeds uh that the freedom convoy protesters were not as uh prime minister

00:03:50.260 justin trudeau alleged were a bunch of racist and misogynist but in fact were a diverse group of um

00:03:55.940 um canadians uh from many different backgrounds and uh with different backgrounds and beliefs

00:04:04.180 um and uh all of them and i spoke to many of the protesters there uh who were there believed in our

00:04:12.980 civil liberties and individual rights um as someone like you who was both involved with the freedom convoy

00:04:20.500 protests uh and originally i believe you were going to be a council for the convoy of the commission

00:04:26.260 and now i think you're appearing in your own personal capacity could you tell our viewers and

00:04:31.860 listeners what the significance of this commission is and why you think it's important of course and

00:04:38.580 rupa it's so nice to hear what you have to say and i understand you live in ottawa and we're quite

00:04:44.740 close to where the protests were taking place and so it's exactly the kind of evidence that we are

00:04:52.580 really hoping that the commission and the rest of canada will hear is exactly what you were talking

00:04:58.260 about is that it was really a diverse um variety of canadians that really came together for a common

00:05:07.940 cause uh to the nation's capital here in ottawa and it was i was here for three weeks it was really

00:05:17.060 amazing to see and um as you alluded to that is what we are hoping to see the commission do to hear

00:05:25.140 exactly what happened you know what brought people here there was a reason that people felt compelled

00:05:32.500 to come all the way to ottawa in the dead of winter uh there was a reason that um there was incredible

00:05:40.100 support um for people coming across we saw the videos as um truckers and regular canadians just

00:05:48.420 it got involved and started driving from their home counts um there was financial support as we all

00:05:55.140 know so what compelled these people to come these canadians to come to ottawa stick it out in the

00:06:02.900 dead of winter and uh support one another in a way i honestly have never ever seen in my lifetime before

00:06:10.020 and we really hope that the commission will hear that and canada will have an opportunity to to hear

00:06:15.860 as well so uh if just to clarify what was your uh involvement with the freedom convoy protests

00:06:22.980 um back in february what was the nature of your involvement so we uh we were i i'm a legal counsel

00:06:33.540 with the justice center okay and the justice center was contacted by certain indian protesters that were

00:06:40.580 in ottawa they reached out to the justice center and that's how i got involved um we got to ottawa on the

00:06:49.300 request of um we still represent tamara leach chris barbara and some of the other uh volunteers that

00:06:57.060 came together the protesters that were here early on the ground and uh we were retained as legal counsel

00:07:04.180 to help navigate the any legal issues that were to arise um give advice um you know as we all know

00:07:14.180 protesting peacefully peaceful assembly and right of expression is guaranteed under the charter and so

00:07:20.740 we were just ensuring that um those guarantees remain and that if there's any hurdles or um

00:07:29.380 challenges legally that we're here to support the protesters uh what was your experience like in the

00:07:35.700 initial um uh days of the uh protest at the very very early on from a legal point of view well what

00:07:43.700 what is it that you experienced what what what is it that you saw as a lawyer uh unfolding as the days

00:07:52.740 as as the protesters became increasingly more entrenched in the downtown core well honestly um i think we

00:08:01.140 we've used the word unprecedented for the the protest and what occurred in ottawa um many times

00:08:07.940 we've heard that word used numerously and i would have to say that it's the same with any

00:08:12.900 legal challenges and legal issues that we came across uh nothing about the protest and these clients

00:08:21.300 and the legal issues we faced is anything i've ever seen before yeah um we we flew in thinking you

00:08:27.700 know we're gonna be faced with an injunction from the city of ottawa that seemed to make sense to us

00:08:34.740 and that would be we uh suspected that would be something we would have to defend in court early on

00:08:39.940 yeah um that didn't occur we we were served with an injunction by a private citizen for honking

00:08:50.180 so we had that challenge um throughout the time we got there were different legal actions some by the

00:08:57.140 city one by the city one by the province both of which were not served on us and those were ex parte

00:09:04.900 orders so the party at the city and the province went to court and asked for an order from the judge

00:09:12.260 without notifying us who identified we identified early on to the public that we were on the ground

00:09:21.060 and retained to support and provide legal advice and represent protesters did you at all imagine like

00:09:28.340 i have said this many times i didn't think that the protest would uh protesters would be here beyond the

00:09:34.180 weekend uh but did you at all think that they would uh stay here as long as they did not at all um and

00:09:42.740 yeah we got in here after the weekend so oh you know okay there there's that answer and when we came we

00:09:49.780 came not knowing when how long we were coming for and when we were heading back yeah so i i we were in

00:09:55.460 the same boat um and and even more so because we only got tidbits from what we saw on social media or

00:10:02.020 the news and we weren't really here to see what it was once you get here once we got here you could

00:10:07.300 really see what was going on and get a real feel for um reality of what was on the ground and and all the

00:10:13.460 work and all again the support that was going on here and people working together again like i've never

00:10:19.380 seen before yeah i mean it's it may sound like a dumb question but typically with protest movements

00:10:26.420 uh do they typically um normally retain lawyers or a legal team uh when they're about to protest or

00:10:35.300 engage in civil disobedience i'm gonna use the word unprecedented again um to be honest i don't know if

00:10:44.900 they reach out and at some point probably they do uh i don't know if they generally have them under

00:10:51.220 on the ground okay i would suspect not so i this is uh you know uh kudos to the clients to recognize

00:11:00.580 especially because of the magnitude and uh the chaos that was going on around them i think they

00:11:07.780 recognized early on that um i think we need a little bit of legal advice here to make sure

00:11:13.540 and help guide us throughout this time yeah i was struck by the fact that you know that's when i first

00:11:18.660 met keith wilson and uh um that you know they had uh the the the uh convoy organizers had uh a legal team

00:11:29.380 in place uh and uh and and that legal team uh was uh you know was would was there at all of these

00:11:37.540 pressers that i attended uh during the three weeks of the protesters were here and i'd never

00:11:42.580 i've attended my fair share of protests around the world but i'd never seen um you know a legal team

00:11:49.220 uh at any of these uh protests so that that was quite striking at that time but uh but as you say

00:11:55.140 you know they were forward looking and they anticipated problems and uh and so um you know it was uh

00:12:01.300 uh good good on them for uh having a legal team in place in case anything were to come up and just to

00:12:08.260 yeah put note on that is that wasn't organized really either at all um you know we were contacted

00:12:16.020 i think it was tuesday yeah yes tuesday 4 p.m we uh then were got the go ahead to go to ottawa

00:12:26.660 10 p.m we were on a plane 5 a.m the next day it you know nothing was pre-planned pre-organized

00:12:34.500 grassroots you know it was what i loved and i noticed about what was going on in on in in ottawa is it

00:12:42.100 seemed that when there was a need for something those that area of expertise or that requirement

00:12:49.140 just appeared people volunteered they wanted to be there they wanted to support i you know i felt

00:12:54.660 compelled to help just as much as um somebody else coming to serve soup or uh provide some warm clothes

00:13:02.740 i knew that this was an area i could help in uh we were called didn't hesitate i know keith wilson was

00:13:08.980 the same neither of us hesitated to within less than 24 hours from first contact we were in ottawa

00:13:16.660 yeah so what do you personally hope to accomplish by being involved uh in the commission either

00:13:22.820 attending as part of the public or uh uh or if you're called as a witness yourself definitely it's

00:13:30.420 all about the truth so um one thing people have been asking questions about or um with the commission

00:13:36.900 is what is it going to accomplish uh one thing i did mention in the tweet is it isn't meant to be an

00:13:43.780 adversarial process the inquiry it's meant to be an inquisitorial process a fact-finding evidence

00:13:51.540 process for six weeks after that there's one week of policy so the intent and the goal of the commission

00:13:58.740 is to get all of the information the evidence out so that's six weeks and then after that and all parties

00:14:05.460 can do this as well is make pitches to the commission basically about what they suggest change with the

00:14:11.860 emergencies act and provide recommendations and policy uh review of after that portion so it's about

00:14:21.700 getting to the truth really that's the goal that's what i really hope will happen in uh for the next six

00:14:29.460 seven weeks as we get down to the nitty-gritty truth of what went on for in in ottawa in february

00:14:36.740 yeah and i'm sure you've heard of the parliamentary committee which uh and unlike the parliamentary

00:14:42.660 committee which is also looking into the emergencies act um the parliamentary committee is stacked with

00:14:49.380 this liberal ndp alliance um so we we all hope that this independent commission uh headed by a

00:14:55.940 non-partisan judge will be impartial will be fair and examine all points of view and not just those

00:15:02.260 coming from the government side from your experience both as a lawyer and um and based on previous public

00:15:09.060 inquiries um we've had in canada on a range of different issues what's the likelihood that the

00:15:15.540 commission will actually find the government at fault here uh and i've talked about this many many times

00:15:21.620 on my show before that courts in canada generally tend to be very deferential to the government um

00:15:27.940 of the day and i wonder um if if a similar deference uh also would extend to independent commissions

00:15:36.900 like this so i'm going to touch on one thing and that you might have to remind me of the question

00:15:41.940 again but i did want to mention one thing is um i've heard a lot of people also you know um compare

00:15:48.900 to the house of commons uh parliamentary sessions from what i know i don't believe the witnesses are

00:15:56.100 under oath they may be there in at the inquiry they will be and they will there will be an opportunity

00:16:01.620 to be cross-examined which there you do see similarly so there is um a little bit different of a process

00:16:09.380 um so that's one thing i wanted to point out because there has been a lot of questions about that

00:16:14.660 um and you know while some members of parliament i've watched some of those sessions excellent um

00:16:23.060 questions are being posed but here there's going to be a bit more opportunity for experienced civil

00:16:29.380 litigators to cross-examine these witnesses under oath um at the question period that's another one

00:16:35.540 that i've seen some comparisons i believe those are all generally pre-written the questions and so

00:16:41.220 the other party has an opportunity to have a prepared answer that's not the case here so it

00:16:47.620 it will be a little bit more you have to think on your feet you have to tell the truth you're under

00:16:53.540 oath and so um we'll see how the witnesses um act in that case and we have a wide variety now that are

00:17:02.740 uh have been shown but uh so the question really was just to because you said to remind you of the

00:17:08.340 question i the courts generally tend to be deferential to the government's uh to the

00:17:14.980 government's views and we've seen how all of these challenges to the vaccine mandates or lockdowns or

00:17:21.620 restrictions over the course of the last couple of years have just not really succeeded so i'm

00:17:27.380 wondering what do can should we expect a similar kind of deference from a public commission of this sort

00:17:33.780 yeah really good question and i have to say no i've been involved in some of the um challenges in

00:17:41.300 court and public health advice yeah is is a bit different than what we're looking at here

00:17:47.940 i can understand courts being deferential to um public health advice especially in a time where

00:17:55.220 a lot isn't known courts generally do say you know i'm not the expert so i can i can understand to

00:18:02.420 an extent um where they're coming up where why they're saying that it it is that's not what

00:18:08.020 they're meant you know they're not they don't have the expertise to be making this kind of decision

00:18:13.780 about public health they are legal experts and looking at the law um so i i understand why they're

00:18:20.820 being deferential there is a team of medical doctors and advisors to the government so you know

00:18:26.260 it's kind of one judge against a big team of medical experts here we're not seeing the same

00:18:32.180 thing it's a different scenario the commission is um very supported that justice uh judge ruleau

00:18:40.500 is a commissioner in this case and he has a big support of people with expertise and he's able to

00:18:46.820 get advice from a variety of people and the second is this is was a government only decision um i think

00:18:58.100 and while there was some advice or you know that's questionable because we've heard a lot of whether

00:19:03.940 or not and how much the government got advice on enacting the emergencies act that's going to be a

00:19:09.140 central question um to um the the inquiry so i i don't think we can compare the two they are for many

00:19:19.220 reasons distinct okay so hypothetically if the commission were to find that the government made

00:19:25.540 a mistake invoking the emergency uh emergency act uh because it didn't meet the threshold of an immediate

00:19:33.460 threat to public safety um are there any consequences for the government um as i understand and correct

00:19:40.740 me if i'm wrong here but the commission cannot actually do anything except file a report with

00:19:46.260 which the government can just put on a shelf right is that correct yes in a short answer yes and this is

00:19:54.900 why we really are encouraging canadians to watch and um appraise the evidence the situation with their

00:20:02.740 own hands hear the evidence hear um what is being said and you know it is there is also as we know

00:20:11.620 the court of public opinion if everyone in canada hears you know really really what happened on the

00:20:19.780 ground the facts um they hear whether or not they believe the government was justified in doing it

00:20:26.820 the court of public opinion has a lot of weight um and it ought to the government works for us

00:20:34.100 it's an opportunity you know if you think that you what you heard at the commission is important

00:20:40.180 and you believe that it wasn't um properly invoked and maybe that's what um the commissioner decides

00:20:47.780 you could then write to your mp i think we need to start in canada

00:20:51.940 um being a bit more vocal maybe to the politicians about things we want to see and want to hear from

00:21:00.180 our elected officials yeah i mean that's a point that i've been trying to make as well over the last

00:21:05.540 few months uh and uh and hopefully more people are thinking along those lines uh but you know back to the

00:21:11.620 commission do you believe this commission uh could potentially be a game changer uh especially if they

00:21:18.020 find um anything irregular in the way the emergency was declared um you know could that uh create legal

00:21:26.420 troubles for the government uh for example even if this commission files a report and it has no teeth

00:21:32.740 um i i assume that this report that the report could be the basis for future lawsuits against the

00:21:39.380 government um how do you see this playing out yeah well it's really hard to say now about um what can

00:21:45.940 transpire after definitely like you said will it have teeth and i i think a lot again has to do with

00:21:53.060 public opinion if it doesn't um then what what how do as canadians we make it known that you know

00:22:01.220 we need teeth we need this commission to be heard um possibly it could lead to lawsuits but it's really

00:22:08.260 hard to say right now um what can transpire it really will depend tomorrow is the first day we're

00:22:15.060 going to get a little insight into how things are going um as a lawyer you know i i do believe in

00:22:21.620 the rule of law and i i have to believe that um everything is going to be proper until we know

00:22:28.500 otherwise yeah so do we do we know when uh the prime minister is expected to take the stand

00:22:34.740 no um so a list has been made public now um and it's still not known um i think that's something

00:22:43.780 we're going to start to figure out in shortly here in the next couple of days um one thing i can tell

00:22:50.500 you is lawyers are terrible at estimating so um that's going to be one challenging um part component

00:22:57.860 of all of this i believe there's about 80 lawyers that are involved for for all parties so it's it's

00:23:04.660 a bit of a logistical nightmare i believe for the commission to be um sorting this out and then having

00:23:10.740 an idea of the witnesses i suspect uh and it would make sense if um the prime minister and the federal

00:23:18.340 government's evidence comes a bit later in the game because you know that's when the the emergencies act

00:23:24.340 was invoked at the end so that would make sense to me so 80 lawyers that's uh quite extraordinary

00:23:31.620 is that uh is that uh again to use the word unprecedented and like is this the biggest

00:23:38.340 public inquiry that we've had in in recent times uh probably it possibly one of the biggest but what it

00:23:48.020 is definitely is one that's um happening at the speed of light okay so that is one of the

00:23:53.620 requirements that uh resulted from the emergencies act invoking it you need to set up an inquiry process

00:24:02.180 and have a report by february 20th which is the day it was uh revoked so that that part is definitely

00:24:10.820 something i don't think we've seen before this is the first time with the new emergencies act uh with

00:24:16.340 this requirement in it right that this process is uh being put into place so uh the amount of

00:24:24.180 information and all of that so um as for 80 lawyers that i couldn't tell you it is very big it this is

00:24:32.580 something of national importance and significance so there are i believe 20 parties some of whom have two

00:24:40.100 yeah or four lawyers okay interesting well um eva i'm um i've run out of questions is there anything you

00:24:47.940 want to tell um our viewers and listeners um you know what do you want them to do um as far as the

00:24:55.380 commission is concerned um you know any any any suggestions any advice any requests yeah like i said

00:25:03.940 definitely we want um canadians to tune in and i understand that some canadians are feeling you know

00:25:11.700 maybe um this is not going to be a fair process but it's an opportunity for not only to hear but also

00:25:20.500 to be heard the commission is taking submissions until the end of october we encourage everyone you

00:25:26.820 know to submit um you could contact us if you want some you know help or you don't know where to send

00:25:36.100 it to but it's on the commission's website okay the commission needs to hear from canadians this is

00:25:41.380 about canada like i said national and um significance that we've never seen before yeah we have to start

00:25:49.140 making our voices heard um you know i think that's why people ended up here to begin with they weren't

00:25:55.540 heard and we canadians need to be heard and it's time for um you know people to get again come together

00:26:07.780 talk to your elected officials that is what they are for if you have concerns questions address it to

00:26:15.700 them and you know maybe that'll help with and yeah resolving things at some point but i did want to

00:26:23.780 turn it a little bit over to you again because i i did want to hear um i think it's important that

00:26:29.860 canadians hear what you saw and what people in ottawa saw as well and you did start with that and

00:26:35.620 i wouldn't mind closing with a little bit more from you well yeah i um what i saw was uh quite

00:26:42.420 extraordinary um start to finish and i didn't expect um it to unfold the way it did i didn't expect the

00:26:51.300 protesters to be here as long as they were here for and uh it was quite extraordinary i um like i said

00:26:59.060 i've been to a lot of uh protests in my life uh overseas especially i am originally from india and

00:27:07.060 it's a land of civil disobedience um and i've seen my fair share of protests but i've never seen anything

00:27:14.500 quite like this which was very inclusive which was very peaceful it was very joyful um um you know

00:27:22.340 it was it was it was great i uh you know i'd come home and i would uh look at uh tweets from the cbc and

00:27:30.740 ctv and they had a completely different uh take on what was happening uh very contrary to what i had

00:27:38.580 experienced and uh and uh you know i i was i kept tweeting about it and i eventually wrote about it

00:27:44.980 and uh and i i think that was i feel like it was an important contribution to um at that time to uh

00:27:54.980 and a necessary corrective uh to what i felt was a very corrosive narrative that had unfolded

00:28:02.180 in trying to portray the protesters and the truckers as uh just evil people and which they were not

00:28:09.140 in fact the only bad experience i had at the protest was from a counter-protester who um uh

00:28:15.540 confronted me and uh and and was very aggressive uh but you know i could have i could have

00:28:23.140 you know behaved like i was like the world's biggest victim but i chose not to

00:28:27.540 uh you know everybody has their right to air their opinions and uh views and uh and i respected

00:28:33.060 this individual's right to do that but uh but no this was this was an important moment eva

00:28:38.420 in in in our country's history uh a very important uh time um as you say correctly um that uh these

00:28:47.540 are people who came to the streets because they weren't being heard and um and and this was the only

00:28:55.140 way to get heard uh and they would say well we're honking uh uh because we just want to be heard it's

00:29:02.020 it's it's you know this is it was a cry for help in some some ways you know please hear us you know

00:29:07.780 we just want to have a conversation and i think that was um unfortunate that uh you know i kept

00:29:14.100 hoping that prime minister justin trudeau would would would see that would see that and eventually

00:29:20.260 um uh speak to at least the organizers of the protest or at least address the protesters

00:29:26.900 um given he does that kind of thing when when protests happen in other countries but it's unfortunate it

00:29:33.460 it didn't happen uh but uh but here we are i'm hoping that the commission um takes into account

00:29:40.340 all of these different viewpoints and uh comes to a fair and impartial conclusion um and uh and as you

00:29:47.620 say it's it's uh it's hugely important that canadians tune in and make their voices heard and uh because

00:29:53.860 it's it's it's time to be heard i think and so i i really love and appreciate hearing that from you and

00:30:00.340 that is really what we want canada to hear and one point you made um is what you heard is you know

00:30:09.380 peace and love and unity where did the divisiveness and that rhetoric come from from what i heard

00:30:17.380 never once from the protesters and i could be wrong of course there might be some bad apples here or

00:30:22.340 there yeah but exactly what you said is the prime minister didn't come out and speak to the

00:30:28.020 protesters what did he do he kind of almost egged them on a little bit more calling them a fringe

00:30:34.020 minority which they embraced wholeheartedly as you know and uh should we tolerate their views racist

00:30:40.820 misogynist so where did that rhetoric come from who in who is really the one perpetuating this

00:30:47.860 divisiveness in this country and i think that we really need to um get to the bottom of that and

00:30:53.860 that's what i i believe will happen in in the next six seven weeks well i hope so too i think it's uh

00:31:00.260 it's an important time it's a time of healing and uh and and also accountability uh we shouldn't we

00:31:06.820 shouldn't forget accountability which has been completely lacking so far and uh and i hope we uh get

00:31:12.740 to the bottom of uh of what what exactly happened um february of this past year well eva thank you so much

00:31:20.660 for coming on to the show uh it's been a great pleasure i loved having uh this conversation with

00:31:26.340 you uh good luck at the commission and i hope to see you there yeah my pleasure happy to come back

00:31:32.980 any time okay thanks thank you take care

Juno News - October 14, 2022

How will the Emergencies Act hearings unfold？ (Ft. Eva Chipiuk)

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