Juno News - ＂I was there for my kids＂： Freedom Convoy organizer speaks out in new book

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:05.460 This is The Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:00:12.540 Hello and welcome to The Andrew Lawton Show here on True North.

00:00:16.640 This is Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:19.680 And I have often said on this program that anytime someone comes out with a book about the Freedom Convoy,

00:00:26.320 I'm going to welcome them onto this show.

00:00:27.860 I had the great privilege of telling part of this story myself in my own book,

00:00:33.060 which came out a little over a year ago now, The Freedom Convoy,

00:00:36.640 the inside story of three weeks that shook the world.

00:00:39.480 But I always, always, always, always admitted that this was never going to be the entirety of a story.

00:00:46.200 I could only tell the story from one particular vantage point.

00:00:49.700 I was not an insider. I was an observer.

00:00:52.120 And I did my best to do justice to the stories of the people that were a part of this fantastic.

00:00:57.260 And I would say also historical movement.

00:01:00.180 But I was really eager to hear the stories of those who were in the midst of it,

00:01:05.200 those who were on the front line.

00:01:06.600 We spoke with Tamara Leach when she wrote her own book about this,

00:01:10.600 which fortunately she was able to do,

00:01:12.760 despite some very stringent and strict bail conditions.

00:01:16.240 And I've known for a while there's another book coming out,

00:01:19.540 which is Tom Morazzo's.

00:01:21.280 It's called The People's Emergency Act.

00:01:23.300 Now, I've spoken to Tom on this show and also off this program a great many times.

00:01:27.620 He's always been a tremendously humble but a very pivotal participant,

00:01:32.280 not just in the convoy and its day-to-day logistics,

00:01:35.760 but also in the discussions that took place between the convoy and the City of Ottawa.

00:01:41.580 Discussions which could have brought about a peaceful resolution

00:01:44.640 and mitigation of the so-called harms that some of the people in the media were saying

00:01:49.840 the Freedom Convoy brought.

00:01:52.120 But those efforts were for naught when the Emergency Act came into play.

00:01:57.160 Tom testified, as you likely heard, before the Public Order Emergency Commission.

00:02:01.360 And let's just show this little great clip of Tom

00:02:05.920 when the media wanted to ask him some questions

00:02:08.220 on the way out of the Public Order Emergency Commission.

00:02:11.460 Mr. Morazzo, can we ask you a couple of questions?

00:02:14.420 You guys have been lying for three years.

00:02:16.400 I don't want to talk to you.

00:02:19.720 Well, fortunately, he never gives us that treatment,

00:02:22.760 and we're so grateful for it.

00:02:23.900 The book is The People's Emergency Act, Freedom Convoy 2022 by Tom Morazzo.

00:02:29.180 Tom, congratulations on the book.

00:02:30.660 It's good to talk to you again.

00:02:32.140 Thanks for having me, Andrew.

00:02:33.740 And yeah, that clip, I remember when that clip came out and you did a story on it,

00:02:40.760 and I was just about to rewind it again

00:02:43.680 because I was watching your coverage of what I had said to the media.

00:02:48.060 And I was just about to rewind it

00:02:51.420 because I even thought it was funny from looking at it from the camera.

00:02:54.200 And you're like, wait, but that's funny.

00:02:55.920 Let's watch it again.

00:02:56.920 And I'm like, I don't have to rewind it.

00:02:58.260 So, yeah, I mean, like, I had no desire to talk to the legacy media,

00:03:05.560 and I still feel that way today that, you know,

00:03:10.140 we look at all the people that are on trial or incarcerated around this country,

00:03:14.320 and I just, it's incomprehensible to me that the media are not the ones that are on trial.

00:03:21.360 And, you know, like that day when I refused to talk to them,

00:03:24.340 I feel even more strongly about their,

00:03:27.520 the harms that the media in this country have caused to ordinary Canadians,

00:03:31.860 and just everybody, not ordinary Canadians, all Canadians.

00:03:34.560 Well, I think that is a perfect segue into your book

00:03:39.940 because the whole point of the Freedom Convoy at the beginning was,

00:03:43.860 I mean, if we really go back to the genesis of it,

00:03:46.300 it was really spawned as a result of this vaccine mandate for cross-border truckers,

00:03:51.840 which is a relatively small, important,

00:03:54.500 but a relatively small percentage of the overall population.

00:03:57.360 But you compound that with general exasperation with COVID mandates

00:04:01.620 and vaccine passports and all of this,

00:04:03.580 and it becomes a movement against mandates.

00:04:06.080 And you and I have spoken about this in the past.

00:04:08.980 By the end of it, when the Emergencies Act came in,

00:04:12.240 I wouldn't even say the Freedom Convoy was about COVID anymore.

00:04:15.860 I think in general, it was about the state's efforts

00:04:18.960 to control our individual civil liberties.

00:04:22.360 And I wonder if you look back on it as someone who was in the midst of it,

00:04:26.460 when did you see that change happen?

00:04:28.120 When did the mission of the Freedom Convoy, if you will,

00:04:31.320 really morph from that more targeted resistance to COVID measures

00:04:37.560 to something much bigger?

00:04:39.500 I think during the convoy, it was the buildup,

00:04:44.280 the rumours that were starting to happen

00:04:45.940 about the invocation of the Emergencies Act.

00:04:49.340 And you could see that there was this constant plea on our side

00:04:55.860 to get something going with any government official

00:04:58.480 because, you know, I wasn't really in the beginning

00:05:01.240 in favour of talking with the city.

00:05:02.960 I just thought it was kind of a waste of our time.

00:05:05.560 We weren't there for the city.

00:05:06.960 The mayor of Ottawa had no power to overturn any of the mandates.

00:05:11.100 The federal government had the power

00:05:13.200 that we were seeking to discuss with them.

00:05:17.040 But it became clear that when they stopped wanting to talk to us,

00:05:23.140 or, sorry, not wanting to talk to us,

00:05:25.260 when they just refused to talk to us,

00:05:27.140 and we finally got something going with the city,

00:05:30.040 we were getting progress, but then something shifted.

00:05:33.660 And then you saw the city disengage,

00:05:37.380 and then we went to this, the Emergency Act.

00:05:42.360 And the rumours about it were very strong just before he invoked it.

00:05:45.580 And then he actually invoked the Emergency Act,

00:05:48.940 and we said, okay, this situation has fundamentally changed now for us.

00:05:53.380 And we need to choose our steps very carefully.

00:05:56.440 And again, that's when the Board of Directors for Freedom Corps

00:05:59.620 and Keith Wilson and several others

00:06:01.860 created the Roadmap to Freedom document.

00:06:05.560 And then we put forward that in the public.

00:06:08.080 And that really was transformative in terms of the overall intent

00:06:12.280 of what the convoy was trying to achieve with where we were on the third week.

00:06:19.400 One of the things, and I don't mean this as an insult at all,

00:06:22.900 because I think, if anything, it's a compliment.

00:06:24.520 But when you first spoke up,

00:06:26.800 and you were first sort of presented in the way the media does

00:06:30.240 as being a spokesperson of the convoy,

00:06:32.300 which is, as people who have followed this closely know,

00:06:34.560 is kind of a made-up term in general,

00:06:36.480 because whoever just was quoted at a particular moment was a spokesperson.

00:06:40.080 But my first response was, who is this guy?

00:06:42.360 Because I had never heard of you,

00:06:44.580 and I had never heard of a lot of the people that had spoken up.

00:06:48.500 And I think that was the magic of it, really,

00:06:50.160 is that you had these people that were not part of the usual suspects

00:06:52.680 of political organisers and political activists.

00:06:56.160 But I know there was a bit of friction about this internally.

00:06:59.180 And I certainly, you know, Benjamin Dichter,

00:07:01.540 who, as we've discussed in the past,

00:07:03.660 wanted to really control and funnel all communications through him

00:07:07.600 and didn't really have a tremendous amount of success

00:07:10.380 the longer it went on.

00:07:11.820 But when you did sort of speak up,

00:07:14.040 it was a departure from what you had already anticipated,

00:07:16.600 because you had wanted to be a behind-the-scenes guy,

00:07:19.060 just go and, you know, the joke that you had

00:07:21.120 was just feed the soldiers, basically.

00:07:22.840 So what changed in you that made you more comfortable

00:07:26.340 or willing to have a public face here?

00:07:29.880 Well, the reality was is that I had no intention

00:07:32.420 of doing any of the media.

00:07:34.340 I didn't want to be doing any spokesman stuff.

00:07:37.140 And I remember the day I was in the back of the room

00:07:39.640 when Tamara gave the first press conference 1.00

00:07:41.580 with Joanie and Danny Bulford,

00:07:44.320 and it was kicked off by Keith Wilson.

00:07:46.220 I was at the back of the room.

00:07:47.620 My stomach was in knots.

00:07:49.660 I was literally terrified.

00:07:51.120 Just on behalf of their nerves.

00:07:53.380 You were feeling sympathy nervous.

00:07:55.260 Yeah, and I was looking at Tamara.

00:07:56.540 I'm like, oh, my God, like, we're in the house of Tamara here.

00:07:59.600 She owns that podium. 1.00

00:08:01.500 And I remember saying to a friend of mine, Jack McClellan,

00:08:04.920 saying, I'm glad that's not me.

00:08:07.080 I'd be terrified.

00:08:08.640 And it was funny because Danny went up to the podium next,

00:08:11.200 and you could see Danny was quite nervous.

00:08:13.140 But something that's Danny Bulford, the former RCMP officer.

00:08:17.600 And so, you know, the night that the police raided Coventry,

00:08:21.680 what happened was a lot of the leadership, the board members,

00:08:28.240 they said, look, we need to do a live stream because I came back.

00:08:31.160 I went down to Coventry, and I reported that this had no impact

00:08:34.780 whatsoever on our ability to continue doing what we're doing.

00:08:38.100 It wasn't going to interrupt our sustainment whatsoever.

00:08:43.340 And so people said to me, you're going to do a live stream

00:08:45.900 and give that statement.

00:08:47.640 And so my thought was, I don't know that I really want to be out there

00:08:51.360 doing any of this statement stuff.

00:08:54.000 But then more and more people kind of jumped onto the idea,

00:08:57.040 and they were like, okay, no, we're, okay, I'm going to do the live stream.

00:09:01.260 I'm going to do it.

00:09:01.820 And I was like, okay, this is going to get out of control.

00:09:04.000 So my thought was just do a quick update, and then that'll be sort of the end of it.

00:09:11.380 I didn't realize that that was kind of like my audition.

00:09:15.080 That wasn't my intent.

00:09:16.520 It wasn't my intent at all.

00:09:18.000 But the next day, the board and several other members said,

00:09:21.240 that went well last night.

00:09:23.320 We'd like you to do a live stream.

00:09:27.140 Now, I didn't know it was a live stream at the time.

00:09:29.460 The very first thing, because I think Lincoln J was the one who was covering it

00:09:34.440 from Rebel News, and I didn't realize this was going to be live.

00:09:38.420 I actually looked over to the corner, out of the corner of my eye,

00:09:41.540 I saw a phone that was on, and it was live streaming,

00:09:44.140 and I could feel the bile coming up from my stomach.

00:09:47.780 I almost threw up on the desk when I realized it was live.

00:09:50.820 It wasn't my intention to be a spokesman of any kind for the convoy,

00:09:55.440 but I was asked to do it, and you could see the first time I spoke,

00:10:01.280 the entire board was standing behind me.

00:10:04.180 So it's not like I chose to do that all on my own.

00:10:07.800 It was I was requested to do it, and I was supported by the board.

00:10:12.760 And in fact, it's either the second time or the first time.

00:10:16.600 But you saw, you know, I was either with Chris Barber or Bridget Belton.

00:10:21.520 And in the next one, I believe I was surrounded by the entire board

00:10:25.340 and several of the other trucking captains and some of the doctors.

00:10:28.820 So it was nothing that I ever sought to do.

00:10:32.320 In fact, I really didn't have any interest in it.

00:10:35.100 I was requested to do it because of the role that I was in.

00:10:38.060 Just to turn to your book specifically here, Tom,

00:10:43.720 you had originally, I know, wanted to have this book out on the one-year anniversary,

00:10:47.740 I think it was, of the Emergencies Act coming in, so in mid-February.

00:10:52.200 And I know that you've delayed this, I believe, a couple of times.

00:10:56.900 And part of it, as I understood, was that you didn't feel you'd have the whole picture by then.

00:11:01.540 You know, you wanted to actually see through the process of the Public Order Emergency Commission

00:11:06.120 and then the final report and then, of course, get your own reflections down on paper.

00:11:10.580 And I'm curious if your perspective has actually changed in that time.

00:11:14.940 You know, if you were to have this book written and out in February of this year versus doing it now.

00:11:20.560 Yeah, I think the decision to delay was the right decision.

00:11:23.420 And when I originally started this project, it took me six months to even decide if I wanted to

00:11:30.120 because I was concerned that it wasn't my, I didn't own the story.

00:11:34.680 I felt that Canadians owned the story.

00:11:37.580 And so I wanted to be very clear about what was my intention to write this book.

00:11:42.020 And so I began really wanting to make sure that I covered only what I participated in,

00:11:53.160 that I wasn't drawing conclusions or I wasn't quoting other people.

00:11:59.040 I didn't want it to be a historical report from that perspective.

00:12:02.720 I jokingly said, I'm going to treat it like though, as if though I have a GoPro on my head.

00:12:07.600 And if the GoPro camera didn't see it, it didn't happen in my book.

00:12:10.420 So that's kind of how I approached it.

00:12:12.860 And the second thing is I didn't want to, you know, there were some things that happened in the background

00:12:18.500 that aren't very flattering to a lot of people that were involved.

00:12:22.340 I didn't want to write a book criticizing the people that I interacted with because they were doing the best

00:12:28.480 that they could given the circumstance.

00:12:30.260 So I didn't want it to be about that either.

00:12:33.380 But as I was participating in the audience at the Public Order Emergency Commission,

00:12:38.660 it became painfully clear to me that I couldn't tell this whole story accurately.

00:12:44.580 If I wasn't able to sort of, to use the term from elementary school, compare and contrast

00:12:49.720 what we were thinking versus what the government and law enforcement were thinking.

00:12:55.100 And so I thought that that was an important thing.

00:12:57.180 There are several chapters where I refer to the testimony.

00:13:00.480 And I reviewed the footage again.

00:13:02.120 I read all of the, I downloaded and read all the stuff.

00:13:05.780 So they are direct quotes from the people involved.

00:13:08.980 And it was important to me to try to match up, you know, what we were aiming to do

00:13:14.980 and what the government was aiming to do and then to illustrate what the result was.

00:13:19.460 And so I agree still with my decision to delay the book and to try to capture that.

00:13:25.100 Because some people suggested do two books.

00:13:27.340 I'm like, doing one is going to kill me.

00:13:30.340 So I thought, I'll just do the one and try to encapsulate everything into one.

00:13:35.400 One thing that I found fascinating about the convoy in general, and I think it was Keith

00:13:41.780 Wilson who first, when I was interviewing him for my book, had brought this up, is how

00:13:45.780 you had all of these people who had these skills that they had developed over careers in law

00:13:50.420 enforcement or medicine or military that were laid off.

00:13:54.940 And they had time on their hands and they had a skill set.

00:13:57.100 And it was those skills that really drove the Freedom Convoy because you had this military

00:14:01.340 like operation in some ways.

00:14:03.240 And I know you brought this with your own experience in the Canadian Armed Forces.

00:14:07.460 But the other side of that is that there were a lot of people that really looked at law enforcement

00:14:14.420 that were being called in to respond to and to reign in the Freedom Convoy with a level of

00:14:21.120 mixed emotion.

00:14:22.180 And, you know, I talked to a lot of people on the right politically that are very pro-police

00:14:27.140 and pro-law enforcement.

00:14:28.280 But they sort of expected that, you know, there were some very heartwarming encounters

00:14:34.060 where people had nice interactions with police during the convoy.

00:14:36.840 But at the end of the day, the police took their marching orders and they went in and

00:14:40.700 they did what they needed to do to contain a situation.

00:14:43.440 And I'm curious how you view that with your background in military, where you understand

00:14:50.280 chain of command, you understand authority, and you understand the natural order of things

00:14:55.120 versus this movement that you were a part of, which was about what those efforts by law

00:15:00.920 enforcement are supposed to be in pursuit of, which is the rule of law and freedom.

00:15:04.860 And how do you reconcile those two parts of your life?

00:15:08.620 It's a great question because in my military career, I have had the opportunity several times

00:15:14.280 to work with law enforcement.

00:15:15.640 In fact, in one of my postings as an army officer, I was posted to a reserve unit.

00:15:22.360 The commanding officer to the reserve unit I was with was a police officer in his full-time

00:15:26.780 job.

00:15:27.160 And so was the regimental sergeant major and a lot of the leadership of that unit.

00:15:31.760 So I've worked with police through the military and, you know, I participated low level nighttime

00:15:39.800 duty officer in the GHE 20 summit in 2010, you know, that happened in Toronto.

00:15:45.560 So I've got a lot of experience, a lot of my friends in Niagara police.

00:15:49.700 So I understood that perspective.

00:15:53.000 But when you look at what the goals of the convoy were, my, let's say my professional opinion

00:16:01.400 was that we needed to, to abide by the law to the greatest extent possible.

00:16:07.880 And I thought we had a responsibility to be responsible and to be safe, not only for the

00:16:17.380 public, for the convoy participants, the supporters, the residents of Ottawa, we had a responsibility

00:16:25.020 to be safe and responsible.

00:16:26.600 And the best way for us to have achieved that, and I do believe that until they invoked the

00:16:32.060 emergency act, the best way to achieve that was to try to align our goals with what the

00:16:37.680 responsibility of the police were to the public.

00:16:41.600 And so we worked closely with the Ottawa police every single day.

00:16:45.980 We had interactions, not just myself, but several people to always achieve a safe and responsible

00:16:52.040 environment so that everybody could get what they wanted.

00:16:55.880 And, you know, we saw during the commission, the police never asked for the emergency act.

00:17:00.520 They never needed it.

00:17:01.740 They never requested it.

00:17:02.960 They didn't want it because they knew that they had the tools at their disposal.

00:17:06.860 We were in constant communication with the police.

00:17:10.800 And so the government, the political apparatus in this country made the decision to invoke the

00:17:18.680 emergency act, not at the request of the police, but it was a political decision, pure and

00:17:23.600 simple, in fact, to the point where they ignored police recommendations to continue doing engagement.

00:17:30.400 And the OPP produced an engagement plan, and it was presented to cabinet, the IRG in Justin Trudeau's

00:17:41.820 cabinet.

00:17:42.420 It was presented to him on the 13th of February to have an engagement plan with us.

00:17:48.260 And there was people identified who the government could have us sit down and conversation with.

00:17:53.340 The government ignored it, and the next day they invoked the emergencies act.

00:17:59.180 So it was important to us to always keep safety lanes open.

00:18:04.900 And no matter what the legacy media lies about, and, you know, detractors and people that are

00:18:10.760 just nasty and want to vilify us, we always had safety lanes open. 0.70

00:18:14.660 And even the fire department testified to that, and so did the police.

00:18:18.980 You know, and the first thing I did when I got there on day one was identify vulnerable

00:18:25.940 infrastructure like old age homes or retirement homes, hospitals, the police station, fire departments.

00:18:32.260 We marked it on a map to make sure that we were not uncovering their ability to get the

00:18:37.320 citizens in need.

00:18:38.520 But that's never going to be the story in the legacy media or for the government.

00:18:43.420 But we worked really hard to make sure that we were always safe and responsible.

00:18:47.540 And we worked with the Ottawa police.

00:18:49.980 And make no mistake, the two days when the police invaded or sorry, not invaded, that's a

00:18:55.000 terrible word, but attacked the public, those were not Ottawa police.

00:18:59.140 Those were police departments from different jurisdictions.

00:19:02.260 Because the convoy participants built a rapport with the Ottawa police.

00:19:07.600 They were pulled away from the front lines.

00:19:10.620 It was other police departments like the Serté du Québec, the OPP outsiders came in and did

00:19:17.160 what they did to the public, not the Ottawa police.

00:19:21.320 But let's go down to that individual level.

00:19:24.040 Because there's a line in your book where you say, I can't comprehend how a police officer

00:19:29.180 in Canada could obey an order to attack peaceful protesters with such violence and ease.

00:19:34.940 Now, this is specifically in response to the gentleman who actually testified before the

00:19:41.380 Public Order Emergency Commission, Chris Durian.

00:19:44.320 But in general, when you look at the individual officers that were involved in this operation,

00:19:51.320 what's the view you have on them?

00:19:53.120 Do you believe that they were basically just casualties in a similar way of decisions that

00:19:59.320 were being made by the political overseers?

00:20:01.240 Or do you feel that they are complicit in what you view as being your grievance with the government?

00:20:06.180 You know, it's a very fascinating question because, you know, they brought in something

00:20:12.960 called a public order unit or, you know, traditionally called riot squads and stuff like that.

00:20:19.780 They brought people...

00:20:20.580 Well, like you would have seen at the G20 and G8, right?

00:20:22.860 Exactly.

00:20:23.400 And, you know, we're still 13 years later after the G8-G20 summit in 2010.

00:20:29.740 The lawsuits are still ongoing from that.

00:20:31.900 And, you know, the police were supposed to have learned a lot of things about how they

00:20:37.700 conduct themselves in that kind of situation.

00:20:42.020 But I think the individual police officers were trained in public order tactics.

00:20:49.980 And some of them just went a little too far.

00:20:54.880 You know, I think there's a...

00:20:59.880 Police officers have an enormous amount of individual discretion with what they're doing.

00:21:05.140 And police officers are also trained in the concept of mob mentality.

00:21:10.280 Because it doesn't just happen to the mob.

00:21:12.540 It happens to the police as well.

00:21:14.440 So there are psychological factors that do happen when you're in a riot or a protest or

00:21:20.900 when you're putting a lot of people and there's potential for violence.

00:21:23.660 Police are trained in these psychological effects that they may experience while they're on the

00:21:29.620 front line of a protest or a riot.

00:21:32.200 And I think some of them succumbed to this.

00:21:35.100 I think some of them acted absolutely unprofessionally.

00:21:41.100 The things that they did to Canadians, the things they did, for example, you mentioned Chris

00:21:45.220 Deering, who notified the police before he was beaten by them that he was an injured combat

00:21:52.240 veteran from Afghanistan.

00:21:54.560 And other veterans said, hey, this guy, this guy, and this guy, they're injured.

00:21:59.060 So...

00:21:59.300 And Chris surrendered to the police.

00:22:01.860 And for his surrender, not only did they kick him where he was injured, but they were

00:22:06.240 punching him in the head while he was on the ground.

00:22:08.300 Completely unnecessary for somebody who surrendered. 0.98

00:22:11.500 Right?

00:22:11.680 So I think the individual police officers have to go home and look in the mirror and say, did

00:22:17.080 I do my job today?

00:22:18.500 Did I serve and protect?

00:22:20.480 And I hope some of them reflect on it and say, I didn't have a good day today.

00:22:25.760 And others say, tomorrow I'm going to do better.

00:22:28.600 But I think individually, the police all know that police are always responsible for their

00:22:35.340 individual actions, no matter what order they're given by their supervisors.

00:22:39.840 Police that's drilled into police, that they're responsible for everything they do regarding

00:22:44.860 interactions with the public, because they're susceptible to being personally sued.

00:22:50.220 But you put them in a riot unit, and what happens?

00:22:54.380 That's how they conducted themselves, despite their training.

00:22:57.920 Well, yeah.

00:22:58.980 And again, I mean, even in military, one of the developments over international law and

00:23:04.060 military conduct has been that you can't just hide behind obeying an order.

00:23:07.760 It's obeying a lawful order, and that's a very important caveat, albeit again, it raises

00:23:13.140 important questions on if you're an individual officer, how do you decide, how do you assess,

00:23:17.480 how do you adjudicate the lawfulness of an order?

00:23:20.840 Let's talk a little bit about your goals here, because I know that at this point we have,

00:23:26.200 you know, 17, 18 months almost of canon, if you will, of people that have told versions

00:23:32.080 of the Freedom Convoy through their own eyes, through a journalistic lens, through a legal

00:23:37.380 lens, the Public Order Emergency Commission.

00:23:40.200 By offering your book now, is your goal to offer just new information that's never really

00:23:46.620 been entertained before, or is it to offer a new perspective on things that are already

00:23:51.940 out there?

00:23:52.380 I think both are valuable.

00:23:53.500 I'm just wondering what your motivation was more predominantly.

00:23:56.620 Well, I was somewhat influenced by a lot of the repetitive questions that always come up

00:24:07.880 about the convoy.

00:24:09.320 You know, for example, this idea of putting all the vehicles up on Wellington, you know,

00:24:16.380 has become a very, very contentious issue.

00:24:18.600 But you have to understand, Canadians went there for a peaceful protest.

00:24:25.520 They didn't go there to conduct tactical operations, right?

00:24:31.080 They weren't there for violence.

00:24:33.220 So when we get a lot of people that say, oh, you put everybody all in a turkey shoot,

00:24:39.100 you line them up, and tactically they were weaker, and like, no, then you're missing the

00:24:44.680 point.

00:24:44.960 We weren't going to Ottawa to conduct violent tactical operations.

00:24:52.320 Putting everybody on Wellington, which I was very instrumental in that goal.

00:24:57.720 This is what I was advocating for the first day I arrived, was because that was a strategic

00:25:04.740 decision to put the pressure on the Prime Minister, to put the pressure on the government,

00:25:09.380 take the pressure off of the city police, thereby the politicians, the residents, that would

00:25:16.080 have, they would have aligned with us to put the government on Justin Trudeau to say, hey,

00:25:20.560 you've got a problem, settle this problem in our city, would you?

00:25:24.060 But in, you know, by doing this, yes, I strongly advocated for a strategic decision to put the pressure

00:25:30.640 where it was due on Justin Trudeau.

00:25:32.440 And so, you know, I did talk about that because that is a contentious issue amongst a lot of the

00:25:41.780 supporters, people that didn't really understand what we were trying to accomplish.

00:25:47.040 And I wasn't the only one who advocated for it, but I would say that I was largely responsible

00:25:51.760 for that decision-making in the very beginning, or I was advocating for it and recommending it.

00:25:56.540 I wanted more vehicles up onto Wellington.

00:25:59.580 I thought that was where they needed to be.

00:26:02.680 And there was resistance to that idea.

00:26:05.560 But, you know, overall, I'm not trying to rewrite history in any way.

00:26:12.000 What I'm trying to do is give people an understanding of why me personally, what I thought needed to

00:26:19.040 happen, and the decisions that I thought needed to be recommended to the board.

00:26:23.880 Nobody controlled the truckers.

00:26:26.080 The board didn't control the truckers.

00:26:28.460 The individual truckers made their own decisions.

00:26:31.040 We just wanted to put them in a position that was going to best accomplish the overall goal,

00:26:37.140 which was to end the vaccine mandates in Canada at the federal level.

00:26:42.180 And so these are the decisions, and these are the conversations and the stories.

00:26:48.480 And, you know, for example, there's a lot of this rhetoric about these secret meetings

00:26:52.960 that were held.

00:26:54.220 I outline all of those in the book because I think they're important because there's a lot

00:26:58.360 of lies being told about those particular discussions, complete untruths, you know,

00:27:03.260 people spreading rumors and lies of things that never took place and never happened.

00:27:07.400 And in the book, I go through great lengths to explain every step of, you know,

00:27:12.440 those meetings that involve Dean French or Steve Kanellakis from the city manager's office.

00:27:19.380 All of that stuff was spelled out in great detail in the book.

00:27:25.260 Looking at your life post-convoy, I know that it's this tremendous high that a lot of people

00:27:30.880 went through, and I still hear people that were a part of this that were so proud to have

00:27:35.240 played a role, larger, smaller, even just to have seen it.

00:27:38.600 You've gone from a guy that, like you said, never wanted any notoriety to being one of

00:27:42.860 the most, I don't know if one of the most vocal is the way, but certainly one of the

00:27:46.140 most prominent and known participants of this.

00:27:49.760 And I'm wondering what you want to, if anything, channel that into after this book, because

00:27:55.540 you're obviously putting your story down here.

00:27:57.480 Is there a part of you that wants to keep this alive in some way, or do you feel this

00:28:01.740 was a chapter in history that's now closed and we open the next one?

00:28:05.180 Yeah, I think this is a chapter that we close the convoys over, and I would like to try to

00:28:13.160 get my life back on track.

00:28:16.220 It has cost me dearly in many personal ways.

00:28:22.560 It's also, I've also, my life has been enriched in many different ways as well.

00:28:27.480 And, you know, the convoy wasn't about Tom Mirazzo, not in the least.

00:28:33.780 I was there for my kids and for my family, and that was the motivation.

00:28:41.440 It was never about me.

00:28:44.560 I didn't intend to play a significant role in the convoy like I ended up evolving into.

00:28:50.900 And now that the convoy is over, I'm just telling the story, and I'm going to leave

00:28:58.080 it up to Canadians to decide what they, if it aligns with them or not.

00:29:02.420 But I think my goal going forward is just to end that chapter, see what happens.

00:29:08.640 I'm not really thinking about another run in politics.

00:29:12.180 I'm actually, I've already started the draft on a second book, but it's fiction.

00:29:18.540 It's terrifying because I've discussed it with a few people, and they're saying, hey,

00:29:23.180 is this a fiction book or is it a prediction book?

00:29:25.780 I'm like, you'll have to wait and see.

00:29:28.300 But I like to write.

00:29:30.500 I like to comment on current events that are happening in Canada.

00:29:36.120 But I think in overall, I'd like to just settle down, fade off into the distance, and get my

00:29:47.080 life back as best I can, or as much as the federal government will allow.

00:29:52.480 And if they don't allow it, then you might see a chapter two of Tom Marazzo.

00:29:56.440 But as far as I'm concerned, I've taken it as far as I think that I can take it.

00:30:05.000 And if there's a need for me, Canada will tell me.

00:30:07.700 If there's not, I'll be more than happy to ride off into the sunset.

00:30:13.140 The backdrop of our discussion this week is, of course, that Tamara Leach and Chris Barber

00:30:18.680 are on trial.

00:30:19.760 And I know you've maintained, as much as you're lawfully allowed to with bail conditions,

00:30:24.540 a good rapport with them.

00:30:27.840 I'll ask you, because I know that there is this, tend to be somewhat conspiratorial among

00:30:32.900 people that are in the Freedom Conduit movement, where anyone and everyone is a Fed in some

00:30:37.040 way.

00:30:37.340 It's like, oh, he's a Fed, she's a Fed, they're a Fed, I'm a Fed, you're a Fed, everyone's

00:30:41.020 a Fed.

00:30:41.700 But I know there was skepticism towards people that were not charged, or people that did not

00:30:47.780 have their bank accounts frozen.

00:30:49.740 Now, you did have the bank accounts frozen, but you actually never had, to my knowledge,

00:30:53.540 any arrest or charges against you.

00:30:56.020 Even when you were speaking at that closing press conference, you had said, to your knowledge,

00:31:01.140 there's no warrant for your arrest.

00:31:02.760 And you were fined, despite having been prominent, despite being important enough to the government

00:31:07.640 to freeze your bank account.

00:31:08.840 So why do you think that is?

00:31:10.920 Why do you think that you and some others, that there was just as much of a case as, which

00:31:16.220 is to say, not much to charge as there was for Tamara and Chris, but didn't go that way?

00:31:21.520 Yeah, that's such a perplexing question.

00:31:25.980 Sorry to stutter there.

00:31:27.660 I spoke to Danny Bulford yesterday at the first day of Chris and Tamara's trial, and

00:31:33.760 him and I had this same question, the exact same conversation we're having now about being

00:31:38.900 accused of being a Fed, and you didn't get charged, and all this stuff.

00:31:43.500 And the answer is, I don't know, but it doesn't mean I still can't be charged later.

00:31:48.840 And as we saw in April of this year, Harold Jonker was charged with the same charges that

00:31:55.980 Tamara Leach is now facing in her trial started.

00:31:59.580 So there's no statute on this, and I confirmed that with Keith Wilson, that there's no statute

00:32:05.780 on this.

00:32:06.220 I could be charged a year and a half from now with the same things.

00:32:09.980 And I think we will see what the outcome of Chris and Tamara's trial are.

00:32:14.980 And if they are convicted, I wouldn't be surprised if a whole group of us get round up and charged

00:32:19.880 with these things.

00:32:21.940 All I can say-

00:32:23.120 Yeah, it's the test case for the overzealous prosecutors.

00:32:25.880 Yeah, yeah.

00:32:26.320 And all I can say is that I just don't know why I was charged.

00:32:35.800 And in terms of the allegations of being a Fed, I've been accused of being CIA, FBI, RCMP,

00:32:42.500 Ottawa Police, OPP, I think Mossad, and other stuff.

00:32:47.420 I mean, the allegations are all over the place.

00:32:50.120 You can go on my old YouTube channel when I was a teacher and watch all my software videos

00:32:54.500 where I was teaching at Georgian College.

00:32:56.820 Well, you were doing the long con.

00:32:58.780 That's how they get you.

00:33:00.340 Exactly, exactly.

00:33:01.580 Because I knew-

00:33:02.260 Israel planted you at that college in 1997 or whatever.

00:33:06.840 Exactly, exactly.

00:33:07.920 So, you know, I just-

00:33:12.200 If they're going to charge me, they're going to charge me, and I'll deal with it at the time.

00:33:15.540 But at this point, even I search for, you know, what's the indictable offense that I may have committed?

00:33:23.400 And I'm not a lawyer or a police officer.

00:33:27.420 Am I surprised?

00:33:28.580 Yeah, I was very surprised.

00:33:30.460 And this is why on the last five days, I called the Ottawa-

00:33:33.820 Or sorry, the OPP every day.

00:33:36.460 And I said, are there any warrants for my arrest today?

00:33:39.540 And they said, nope, there's not.

00:33:41.360 I said, okay, well, if there are, call me and I'll surrender myself.

00:33:45.500 But that call never came.

00:33:47.620 And it doesn't make any sense why 15 months later they would charge Harold Jonker.

00:33:54.020 It's still, to this day, I don't understand why they're charging Chris and Tamara

00:33:57.760 or any of the other people that have been rounded up and charged.

00:34:03.500 Especially you're seeing all these charges being dropped all over the country.

00:34:06.400 Why Chris and Tamara's trial is proceeding is just, you know, the eighth wonder of the world, I guess.

00:34:17.460 Fair enough.

00:34:18.580 Tom Marazzo has written his story of the Freedom Convoy in a fabulous new book,

00:34:24.240 The People's Emergency Act.

00:34:25.680 Tom, always a pleasure.

00:34:26.640 Thanks so much.

00:34:27.220 And congratulations with the book.

00:34:28.780 Thanks so much, Andrew.

00:34:29.760 Thank you very much.

00:34:30.880 Really appreciate the time.

00:34:31.940 That was Tom Marazzo here on The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:34:35.580 And on entirely different notes, we have a bit of an announcement to make.

00:34:40.700 This is the last show in this particular format, in this particular time slot,

00:34:45.780 because next week, The Andrew Lawton Show is going daily, Monday to Thursday at 1 p.m. Eastern,

00:34:51.860 11 a.m. Mountain Time.

00:34:53.980 Now, if you can't tune in live, you can, of course, catch the podcast or catch the archive video

00:34:59.820 basically immediately after.

00:35:01.760 But we are going to change things up.

00:35:03.540 We're going to focus on the live show as much as possible because it is that much more fun.

00:35:07.780 And you get an extra show from me every week.

00:35:09.860 So hopefully that won't be too intolerable for you.

00:35:12.100 But that is kicking off on Monday at 1 p.m.

00:35:15.720 And we'll have over the course of next week footage from my coverage of the Conservative Party

00:35:21.300 of Canada convention in Quebec City, which is actually, I know I just talked about how

00:35:26.320 great live programming is, but why we've pre-taped this one, because I am actually going to be

00:35:31.860 in Quebec City by the time you see this, doing that coverage.

00:35:35.200 So if you see me tweeting away about that right now from there, I'm not in two places at once.

00:35:39.940 This I actually recorded the other day.

00:35:42.000 But we'll see you on Monday.

00:35:43.700 Thank you.

00:35:44.180 God bless.

00:35:44.700 And have a great weekend.

00:35:46.220 Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:35:48.580 Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.

00:35:56.320 www.tnc.news.com

00:35:59.860 www.tnc.news.com

Juno News - September 09, 2023

＂I was there for my kids＂： Freedom Convoy organizer speaks out in new book

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript