Juno News - Inside Canada's free speech crisis

00:00:00.000 In the wake of the assassination of Charlie Kirk on a college campus in Utah,

00:00:04.800 now this is a man that many saw as a free speech hero, while others saw as a provocateur.

00:00:11.340 I feel compelled to examine the direction of travel of speech and expression here in Canada.

00:00:16.920 But expression is a mechanism by which we think that we grow and we build a society that values

00:00:22.840 the principles of liberty, principles that increasingly seem like they're of a past era.

00:00:28.180 What does it mean when a sizable number of university students engage in self-censorship

00:00:33.140 if they feel that their opinions aren't welcome?

00:00:36.180 And that's often based on their perceived position in the intersectional identity hierarchy.

00:00:42.000 Do faculty play a role in the chill of expression?

00:00:45.080 We know that university faculties and administrators are overwhelmingly left-leaning

00:00:48.900 and that universities often have diversity, equity, and inclusion policies that marginalize the majority.

00:00:54.900 Today, I want to talk about the continuing cultural shift that punishes often non-progressive views

00:01:01.280 and reward conformity.

00:01:03.380 I'm joined by David Hunt, Research Director at the Aristotle Foundation,

00:01:08.000 and Martin Mrazik, Professor of Educational Psychology at the University of Alberta.

00:01:13.840 The new study with the Aristotle Foundation paints a sobering picture of Canadian campuses,

00:01:18.460 where, increasingly, even middle-of-the-road, milquetoast opinions are seen as too controversial to voice.

00:01:26.080 I'm Melanie Bennett. This is Disrupted.

00:01:37.420 So, first of all, thank you very much for joining me.

00:01:41.080 Thanks for having us.

00:01:42.180 But before we get into the details, I want to start by talking about what might be a bit of an elephant in the room,

00:01:50.980 and that's the assassination of Charlie Kirk.

00:01:54.100 This happened, obviously, very recently.

00:01:57.260 It's important because he was shot on a college campus in America

00:02:01.840 whilst he was engaging in debating often controversial topics on campus

00:02:08.740 and helping students and people in general disagree better or discuss difficult topics.

00:02:15.000 And there's been a bit of a backlash, depending on your point of view,

00:02:19.320 what that backlash might look like.

00:02:20.720 Now, after his death, many people took to social media to mourn his death,

00:02:27.700 calling him perhaps a hero for free speech.

00:02:30.220 But many other people took to social media to say,

00:02:34.900 maybe he shouldn't have died, but actually he had abhorrent views,

00:02:39.540 and there are consequences for speech.

00:02:41.760 Possibly one of the more famous ones at the minute is Dr. Ruth Marshall

00:02:46.000 from the University of Toronto, who said that shooting is honestly too good for many fascists.

00:02:51.080 Expletive.

00:02:52.520 And these people who, some might say, celebrated his death,

00:02:56.700 thousands might say criticized Charlie Kirk.

00:03:00.080 Many people have been placed on leave,

00:03:01.960 engaging in some cancellations, you might say, over this particular instance.

00:03:06.400 So I think this is really relevant,

00:03:07.740 and I'd really like to know how you feel this might affect speech on Canadian campuses.

00:03:13.720 And I don't know who would like to start, perhaps, Marty?

00:03:17.720 Sure, yeah.

00:03:18.680 Obviously, our hearts go out to the family of Charlie Kirk.

00:03:22.540 The impact this is having, I think it really is opening people's eyes to what is going on on campuses

00:03:32.820 and why there would be such a strong reaction to somebody who really came to campuses

00:03:39.960 to create discussion, to create debate.

00:03:41.940 I know sometimes people found what he said in his opinions to be offensive,

00:03:46.620 and yet he was quite respectful.

00:03:48.900 If you look at his many online interactions, he was engaging with students.

00:03:54.640 And so when we think of why was this strong reaction,

00:03:59.140 I think the question, the concern is,

00:04:01.040 why are students so adverse to critical thinking, to debate, to discussions like that?

00:04:06.000 What is going on in a classroom setting that students just react this strongly?

00:04:11.640 And sometimes there's been a lot of violence, not just with Charlie Kirk, Ben Shapiro,

00:04:16.660 and other individuals who have been on campuses.

00:04:19.160 And we've seen very strong social reactions to that.

00:04:23.780 And so this highlights, well, what is going on on campuses that people are reacting in this way?

00:04:29.020 I mean, post-secondary institutions are supposed to be about critical thinking

00:04:33.180 and debate and discussing and coming to higher ideals.

00:04:36.820 That is what our goal is.

00:04:38.760 And yet we're seeing, rather, instead of more of that,

00:04:42.320 we're seeing, well, we have to shut people down.

00:04:45.120 And I think that's the question and that's the concern is what is going on on campuses

00:04:48.740 that these type of trends are happening.

00:04:52.460 David?

00:04:53.720 Yeah.

00:04:54.960 Who I would point people to is Bernie Sanders.

00:04:58.220 The statement he released was, I think, the best summary of kind of where we're at,

00:05:04.200 how important freedom is, democracy is.

00:05:07.520 And Bernie Sanders, of course, wasn't aligned with Charlie Kirk on pretty much anything.

00:05:11.380 But the one thing they held in common is we have to have open dialogue.

00:05:15.640 We have to be able to debate.

00:05:18.100 And most especially, and of course, Bernie Sanders didn't go here,

00:05:20.380 but where we'll go with this is at and on a university campus and in the classroom.

00:05:26.760 If we're going to learn, we have to be able to think out loud,

00:05:30.600 which means to be able to challenge each other in obviously a respectful way.

00:05:34.620 But I have to be able to ask hard questions if I'm going to be able to understand

00:05:38.600 a subject or a position.

00:05:40.940 If I'm really to understand your views on something,

00:05:43.980 I need to be able to articulate that.

00:05:45.580 And so how are we to learn?

00:05:48.560 So just from the university context,

00:05:50.320 how are we to learn unless we can process out loud and debate and dialogue with each other?

00:05:55.180 So the assassination of Charlie Kirk, it's more than alarming.

00:06:01.240 It's, and again, as our study shows, just the state of universities,

00:06:07.320 it's remarkably unhealthy and showing how remarkably unhealthy our society is.

00:06:11.480 So how important this is that we do respond in an appropriate fashion.

00:06:14.820 And hopefully this assassination will lead to a resolve to prioritize freedom,

00:06:21.340 to prioritize dialogue, to prioritize healthy, open debate.

00:06:25.600 And I do, I'm optimistic that there will be bipartisan leaning in that direction

00:06:32.580 and that people will start to wake up and say, enough is enough.

00:06:35.300 We need to get back to basics.

00:06:37.020 Well, right now on campuses in Canada, we don't really have,

00:06:41.240 so Charlie Kirk founded Turning Point.

00:06:43.380 Turning Point, the whole purpose is to go around campuses and discuss topics.

00:06:47.480 We don't have that in Canada, really.

00:06:49.480 I think some people attempting to do that right now,

00:06:51.680 but we don't really have that here.

00:06:52.820 We don't have anything else like that.

00:06:56.320 And there's been certainly a lot of incidents on many campuses

00:06:59.640 of canceling certain controversial speakers.

00:07:02.060 So what we're seeing, according to the data that you've put out,

00:07:08.980 is that a sizable number of Canadian university students

00:07:11.380 are hiding the way that they truly feel about certain opinions,

00:07:15.500 particularly controversial opinions,

00:07:16.940 because they fear like they might be sanctioned,

00:07:19.700 they might be mistreated or discriminated against based on those opinions.

00:07:23.480 So maybe now is the time to go into that data.

00:07:26.720 On overview, let's start with Martin.

00:07:29.360 What's the biggest takeaway message from the study?

00:07:35.080 I think some of the biggest takeaway messages

00:07:37.760 is that a majority of students feel very uncomfortable

00:07:42.700 expressing their viewpoints on controversial subjects in a classroom setting.

00:07:48.600 And we certainly understand that on any individual level,

00:07:52.040 some people just are shy or they don't want to express themselves.

00:07:55.380 But when we see the significant numbers that we saw consistently across different universities

00:08:01.500 and the other significant finding was even individuals who aligned with moderate political views,

00:08:09.640 moderate to more conservative views,

00:08:11.860 they felt less and less able to express their viewpoints.

00:08:16.260 And so it really suggests that there's a strong leaning in a classroom setting

00:08:21.840 that if you align with certain values that you feel comfortable to express yourself.

00:08:27.020 But if you don't, you're really worried about being cancelled.

00:08:30.980 You're really worried that your viewpoints are going to be looked at in a very strong negative way.

00:08:37.180 And so students are silent.

00:08:39.220 Students aren't saying things.

00:08:40.340 And if you can imagine your son or daughter going to university,

00:08:43.780 paying university tuition and feeling that they can't say anything,

00:08:48.200 feeling like they are shut down.

00:08:50.500 And any time we see people shut down,

00:08:52.840 it really interferes with the whole collaborative process.

00:08:56.400 It really interferes with critical thinking.

00:08:59.260 It's really important in a university setting that you exchange ideas.

00:09:03.480 And sometimes it's an uncomfortable process.

00:09:06.940 But I'll refer back to the great quote from Jordan Peterson,

00:09:10.100 when he said, in order to think, you have to be willing to offend.

00:09:13.840 And we need to see that in a classroom setting.

00:09:16.340 And our results say that a substantive number of students

00:09:18.900 are not in a position where they feel they can do that.

00:09:23.180 So let's talk about identity.

00:09:25.420 That seems to be a theme that comes up in your data.

00:09:28.340 So depending on a person's particular identity,

00:09:31.620 whether that's sex, race, gender, so on,

00:09:33.900 they might have different views on whether they can express controversial opinions.

00:09:38.080 So, David, maybe you can tell us a little bit about that.

00:09:41.460 Yes.

00:09:41.840 So something that we did in the analysis of the report

00:09:45.680 is looking at the whole sample, all of the data,

00:09:50.360 it was interesting that that 80% of the responses

00:09:53.400 could be broken down into six personas,

00:09:56.820 where, for example,

00:10:00.440 Asian students or students who are white and Hispanic

00:10:03.780 who vote liberal and are non-religious,

00:10:06.500 or a category that may be controversial in the present moment,

00:10:12.180 but white, white, straight males who are religious.

00:10:14.780 And of course, this is self-reporting.

00:10:16.200 And that last category, we called them patent.

00:10:17.920 And it was fascinating that on almost any topic,

00:10:22.900 they're hesitant to express their views

00:10:24.240 because their views aren't welcome.

00:10:26.840 And the strongest category in terms of the unlikeliness

00:10:32.480 to feel free to express themselves are the Jewish students.

00:10:35.940 And so we looked at just the Jewish students 0.96

00:10:38.040 on every single category.

00:10:40.500 They are less likely than the average student

00:10:43.900 to feel free to express what they believe.

00:10:45.860 And for the Jewish students in particular,

00:10:49.020 the likelihood that they feel or are mistreated

00:10:53.380 every single day is substantially more

00:10:58.080 than the average student.

00:10:59.460 I'd have to go back and look at the data,

00:11:00.960 but something like five times more likely

00:11:03.220 than the average student to be mistreated

00:11:05.580 for what they believe.

00:11:07.340 So in terms of a campus environment,

00:11:09.680 again, you think of the learning experience.

00:11:11.740 For some students, campus is a hostile environment.

00:11:17.680 It may sound hyperbolic.

00:11:19.040 That may sound a little far,

00:11:20.080 but I think the data does suggest that,

00:11:22.120 that for some of these students,

00:11:23.560 campus environment is actually a hostile environment.

00:11:25.660 And there are some students

00:11:26.620 who can express almost anything they want to,

00:11:29.460 regardless of consequence,

00:11:30.720 and don't even think twice about what they say

00:11:32.220 and perhaps are reckless with their speech.

00:11:34.320 But they're ones who, for lack of a better word,

00:11:38.260 are part of the zeitgeist,

00:11:39.800 the reigning dogma on campus,

00:11:42.420 in particular, your liberal students.

00:11:46.340 Yeah, we hear the term,

00:11:48.060 the tyranny of the minority, 0.97

00:11:49.380 and I feel like we're seeing a little bit of that

00:11:50.920 in that data.

00:11:51.400 And you mentioned Jewish students,

00:11:53.080 that Jewish individuals in Canada

00:11:54.820 are not the majority.

00:11:56.140 They're a minority religious group.

00:11:57.900 And you do see it in your data

00:12:01.040 that they are very,

00:12:02.780 what we could say,

00:12:03.520 disproportionately feel

00:12:04.840 that they can't express themselves.

00:12:06.800 And then another group is,

00:12:10.280 I think it said that non-binary students felt that,

00:12:14.560 87% of non-binary students felt very confident

00:12:17.440 in expressing their views

00:12:18.480 on controversial gender issues,

00:12:20.420 even though they're a small minority,

00:12:23.320 whereas 31% of males and 48% of females

00:12:26.540 said that they didn't feel comfortable

00:12:28.620 expressing their views.

00:12:29.480 I guess you could say cis individuals, right?

00:12:31.680 So using that jargon,

00:12:32.640 we could say that there's some disparity in the data

00:12:34.700 where the minority group feel much more confident

00:12:39.180 expressing themselves for controversial views.

00:12:42.900 Martin, are there other areas

00:12:44.880 that you want to talk about

00:12:46.580 in terms of where an identity

00:12:48.820 really speaks out in the data?

00:12:54.300 Yeah, to me,

00:12:55.660 the one that really speaks out

00:12:57.600 is just we looked at how students identified

00:13:01.340 with political viewpoints on select topics.

00:13:06.480 And that's, again,

00:13:07.600 where we saw significant differences.

00:13:09.860 And to me,

00:13:10.300 that's important in a classroom setting

00:13:11.880 because there are some students

00:13:13.220 that will speak up

00:13:14.080 that will express their viewpoints,

00:13:15.860 some cases probably very strong viewpoints,

00:13:18.040 and they will go unchallenged

00:13:19.600 because another group of students

00:13:21.240 feels very, very restricted

00:13:24.080 in their ability to express their viewpoints.

00:13:26.900 And so when you have a setting like that,

00:13:29.480 again, we are not seeing the critical thinking,

00:13:32.020 the challenging,

00:13:32.720 the coming together

00:13:33.660 that should come out of a healthy debate

00:13:36.800 should leave you thinking.

00:13:38.700 It should leave you with some purpose of,

00:13:41.300 well, I have to refine my thoughts and so on.

00:13:43.360 And to me,

00:13:44.140 that's really important.

00:13:45.300 And when we look at the social sciences,

00:13:47.200 even in the last 15 years,

00:13:49.100 the number of faculty

00:13:50.560 that are more aligned with left-wing thinking

00:13:53.240 versus the number of faculty

00:13:55.100 that are aligned with more right-wing conservative values,

00:13:58.080 that ratio is continuing

00:14:00.380 to just completely be misaligned

00:14:03.400 with what is representative,

00:14:06.000 for example, in Alberta.

00:14:07.740 and so, again,

00:14:09.480 when we think of we just want to make sure

00:14:12.200 that there's a reasonable representative

00:14:14.280 of different individuals

00:14:15.900 in a classroom setting,

00:14:17.620 well, we're not seeing that.

00:14:19.220 We're seeing a skewing of things.

00:14:22.060 And to me, in my opinion,

00:14:23.380 that's where universities

00:14:24.540 need to take a good look at themselves

00:14:26.480 and say, what are we doing

00:14:28.260 and how can we improve

00:14:30.080 the experience of students,

00:14:32.140 all students on a campus setting?

00:14:34.700 Yeah, and to jump in on that,

00:14:36.240 Melanie, sorry if I may,

00:14:38.800 in terms of an often-overlooked category

00:14:41.200 is religion.

00:14:42.580 And what's extraordinary

00:14:43.600 is two-thirds of students

00:14:46.820 self-identify as religious

00:14:48.760 in some way, shape, or form.

00:14:50.940 So for every one non-religious, 0.98

00:14:53.120 secular, agnostic, atheist student,

00:14:55.160 there's one who's religious.

00:14:56.700 But what's extraordinary,

00:14:57.760 to your earlier point, Melanie,

00:14:59.460 the ones who feel free

00:15:00.660 to express their views on religion

00:15:02.320 are the atheists and agnostics 1.00

00:15:04.280 and secularists,

00:15:05.440 those who are religious

00:15:06.440 don't feel at liberty

00:15:07.340 to be honest about what they believe.

00:15:09.760 And in terms of, again, mistreatment,

00:15:12.580 not a single atheist

00:15:13.860 or agnostic participant in our study

00:15:16.820 reported daily mistreatment

00:15:18.700 for what they believe

00:15:19.480 when it comes to religion.

00:15:20.300 Whereas, again,

00:15:21.460 we go back to the Jewish students, 0.54

00:15:22.980 15% of the Jewish students

00:15:24.880 every single day

00:15:25.980 experience some form of mistreatment

00:15:28.220 because they're Jewish.

00:15:29.500 And although that's

00:15:30.220 the most extreme outlier,

00:15:31.900 it's not too different

00:15:33.320 for other religious students as well.

00:15:35.520 Yeah, Martin,

00:15:36.040 you touched on the faculty,

00:15:37.900 and I'm glad you brought that up

00:15:38.920 because I wanted to also

00:15:39.760 talk about that.

00:15:40.540 Macdonald Laurier came up with

00:15:41.660 a study looking at the faculty

00:15:43.660 and their views on speech.

00:15:47.600 And we're seeing that

00:15:49.640 the faculty is overwhelmingly

00:15:50.860 left-leaning,

00:15:52.180 and then you have a small portion

00:15:53.760 of faculty on the right

00:15:55.480 who feel that they can't

00:15:56.380 express their views.

00:15:57.080 But the faculty themselves

00:15:58.040 are largely left-leaning

00:15:58.960 across the country.

00:16:00.180 But in your data,

00:16:01.180 we're seeing that

00:16:01.840 students are quite conservative, right?

00:16:05.000 They have a lot of students

00:16:07.140 with conservative views.

00:16:07.960 And so there's a skew

00:16:08.640 between the faculty

00:16:10.000 and the students.

00:16:10.980 And I'd be curious

00:16:11.660 if you have any thoughts

00:16:13.620 on whether this restriction

00:16:15.700 of speech is coming

00:16:17.100 from the faculty,

00:16:18.040 whether it's students themselves

00:16:19.200 that feel like

00:16:19.900 that is a thing

00:16:20.600 that should be done.

00:16:21.600 They believe that you should

00:16:22.600 censure your speech

00:16:23.340 on controversial topics.

00:16:24.380 Yeah, I'm sure there's

00:16:27.380 many variables

00:16:28.320 that are associated with that.

00:16:31.400 You know,

00:16:31.860 the overwhelming number

00:16:34.200 and ratio of faculty

00:16:36.440 on campuses

00:16:37.200 could sure play into that.

00:16:39.560 Again, our city didn't look at,

00:16:41.300 you know,

00:16:41.860 what is actually going on.

00:16:43.340 So we didn't look at,

00:16:44.260 you know, disciplinary actions

00:16:45.680 and so on in a classroom setting.

00:16:47.960 But again,

00:16:49.060 when we think of a student

00:16:50.400 who probably comes

00:16:51.460 into the classroom

00:16:52.360 with more conservative values

00:16:53.880 to start with,

00:16:55.300 right,

00:16:55.680 and then the faculty

00:16:57.080 are expressing

00:16:58.620 their viewpoints,

00:16:59.960 that's going to just

00:17:00.720 really limit

00:17:02.340 an individual's willingness

00:17:03.920 to participate.

00:17:05.480 It's rare that you have

00:17:06.700 somebody that feels

00:17:07.680 at liberty

00:17:08.620 to express their viewpoints

00:17:10.100 in a first-year class

00:17:11.460 unless they're feeling welcomed,

00:17:13.320 unless they're feeling invited

00:17:14.660 into these discussions.

00:17:16.520 And to me,

00:17:17.560 that would be,

00:17:18.680 you know,

00:17:18.920 one of the responsibility

00:17:19.880 takeaways from this

00:17:21.640 is that faculties

00:17:22.540 should have an understanding

00:17:24.340 of how do we create

00:17:25.480 a classroom setting

00:17:26.700 that is inviting

00:17:28.280 of all representative students.

00:17:31.660 Again,

00:17:32.180 we,

00:17:32.480 like you said,

00:17:33.000 we saw a sizable sample

00:17:36.420 of conservative students

00:17:37.740 in our population,

00:17:39.560 and this represents

00:17:40.360 probably many students,

00:17:41.960 and yet they are expressing viewpoints.

00:17:44.040 So to your point,

00:17:45.020 yes,

00:17:45.460 there's many variables,

00:17:46.520 but the fact that faculty

00:17:48.320 who are left-leaning

00:17:51.080 are not seemingly,

00:17:53.300 you know,

00:17:53.860 creating an environment

00:17:54.960 that's welcoming

00:17:55.640 to all viewpoints

00:17:56.800 to me is concerning.

00:17:58.700 And what I found

00:17:59.480 so interesting,

00:18:00.520 just looking at

00:18:01.660 the self-reporting

00:18:02.540 of students,

00:18:03.100 depending on the question asked,

00:18:04.580 is between 11% to 19%

00:18:06.400 self-identified

00:18:07.480 as politically moderate

00:18:08.880 or middle-of-the-road,

00:18:10.520 something along those lines,

00:18:12.220 but 11% to 19%

00:18:14.540 of them were extremely concerned.

00:18:16.160 about what would happen to them

00:18:17.740 if their political views

00:18:19.420 were known.

00:18:20.600 So of the moderates,

00:18:21.860 these are who,

00:18:22.440 the middle-of-the-road students

00:18:24.040 politically,

00:18:25.220 over two-thirds of them

00:18:26.140 fear a lower grade

00:18:27.040 if their professor knew

00:18:27.920 what they actually believed

00:18:28.660 politically.

00:18:29.660 Almost 70% fear

00:18:31.160 a formal complaint,

00:18:33.040 and it was over 76%,

00:18:34.520 like 77% fear

00:18:35.880 repercussions on social media

00:18:37.560 if their fellow students

00:18:39.080 knew what they believed.

00:18:40.020 These are the middle-of-the-road

00:18:41.220 moderate students,

00:18:42.140 so how much more so

00:18:42.880 for those who have,

00:18:44.800 are on one side

00:18:45.920 side of the poll.

00:18:48.040 Yeah, that's so true

00:18:48.820 because we keep hearing

00:18:49.860 that it's important

00:18:50.560 to include diversity,

00:18:52.640 and it's important

00:18:53.240 to include all students

00:18:54.040 and make them feel safe,

00:18:55.200 and what I'm hearing from you

00:18:56.380 is that actually

00:18:57.220 there's a sizable proportion

00:18:58.440 of students

00:18:58.760 that don't feel safe,

00:18:59.740 and it's not necessarily

00:19:01.060 going to be

00:19:01.740 the non-binary student.

00:19:02.840 It's not necessarily

00:19:03.340 going to be,

00:19:04.340 let's say,

00:19:05.160 the Asian student

00:19:06.260 or the racial minority student,

00:19:09.020 for example.

00:19:10.140 So that's an interesting thing

00:19:11.460 to see if we're able

00:19:13.140 to make some headway

00:19:14.120 in that over the future.

00:19:15.480 But speaking of the future,

00:19:18.040 do you have any suggestions

00:19:19.120 for where we could go from here?

00:19:20.420 Like, how do we address

00:19:21.320 some of these issues?

00:19:24.160 Yeah, that's, you know,

00:19:26.380 for me,

00:19:26.800 I think about that a lot.

00:19:28.300 I mean, one of the things

00:19:29.340 that I believe could be helpful

00:19:31.980 is that, you know,

00:19:33.640 as universities are ranked

00:19:35.160 according to their standing,

00:19:37.520 we have the McLean ranking

00:19:39.060 in Canada

00:19:39.860 that look at research funding,

00:19:41.820 they look at teaching ratios,

00:19:43.500 they look at resources

00:19:44.360 for students on campus.

00:19:46.080 I wonder if there couldn't be

00:19:47.520 an index that's created

00:19:49.320 for students

00:19:50.560 that the freedom

00:19:51.800 of expression index,

00:19:53.160 that's part of that rating.

00:19:54.780 How comfortable do students feel

00:19:56.840 with expressing themselves?

00:19:58.780 And how do universities

00:19:59.760 align with that?

00:20:01.160 Because to me,

00:20:01.720 that would be helpful

00:20:02.800 that they know

00:20:04.120 or that they're taking responsibility

00:20:05.880 for what we're seeing

00:20:06.940 on campus.

00:20:08.100 I mean, that's,

00:20:08.740 I know, a very big,

00:20:11.120 you know, concept to consider.

00:20:13.320 And yet, okay,

00:20:14.280 what are we going to actually do

00:20:15.400 with what we're seeing

00:20:16.240 in the data that we're seeing

00:20:17.220 on campus?

00:20:17.820 And that might be one way

00:20:19.040 to approach the subject.

00:20:21.380 Yeah.

00:20:21.800 Yeah.

00:20:22.000 And given that in Canada,

00:20:23.980 the overwhelming majority

00:20:24.900 of our universities

00:20:25.560 are public institutions.

00:20:27.180 So there definitely is a role

00:20:28.660 for government

00:20:29.740 and for the general population,

00:20:31.280 for voters,

00:20:32.080 to hold these institutions,

00:20:33.880 albeit indirectly,

00:20:35.100 but to hold them accountable

00:20:36.560 and I do,

00:20:37.680 I'm optimistic in that

00:20:39.400 when you get really

00:20:40.660 into the data

00:20:41.280 and the granularity of it,

00:20:43.420 it seems to be the case

00:20:44.820 that you have

00:20:45.240 what I would call

00:20:46.100 the bandwagon effect

00:20:47.760 where though students

00:20:49.760 who are being persecuted

00:20:51.860 for their religious beliefs

00:20:53.020 or gender

00:20:55.420 or what have you,

00:20:56.940 they are going to be

00:20:57.840 more likely to lean

00:20:59.060 a particular way politically

00:21:00.360 in that,

00:21:02.140 whatever the path

00:21:02.680 of least resistance is.

00:21:03.740 So if only liberal views

00:21:05.900 are tolerated in the class,

00:21:07.120 they will self-identify

00:21:08.200 that way

00:21:08.640 because they can only

00:21:09.520 handle so much opposition

00:21:10.700 in those other categories.

00:21:12.480 So if there was a change

00:21:13.540 in climate politically

00:21:15.280 where you didn't have

00:21:17.180 this one ideology

00:21:18.080 that was dominant

00:21:18.840 and you had genuine

00:21:19.880 viewpoint diversity

00:21:20.900 and there were ways

00:21:22.520 to help encourage that

00:21:24.080 through government,

00:21:26.100 et cetera, et cetera,

00:21:26.760 I am optimistic

00:21:28.320 that you would see,

00:21:29.620 you would start to see

00:21:30.320 some healthy change.

00:21:33.260 Yeah, that ideology

00:21:34.420 is pretty well ingrained

00:21:35.680 across bureaucracies

00:21:37.580 and institutions

00:21:38.300 and public sector

00:21:39.300 and so on and so forth.

00:21:40.260 And so I, yeah,

00:21:41.880 if we could make

00:21:42.880 some headway into that,

00:21:43.820 we broaden the Overton window

00:21:47.740 of acceptable discourse,

00:21:49.920 I think that would be

00:21:51.340 very helpful.

00:21:51.940 Also an index,

00:21:52.980 is it their FIRE Foundation

00:21:54.020 has an index

00:21:54.680 on the free speech

00:21:55.500 on campuses,

00:21:56.200 don't they?

00:21:56.760 So we don't have

00:21:57.880 anything like that

00:21:58.540 in Canada?

00:22:00.540 No, we don't.

00:22:01.060 Do you see any headway

00:22:01.760 in possibly being able

00:22:02.840 to put that together?

00:22:03.920 Is there any interest?

00:22:06.800 I think that there

00:22:07.920 is interest,

00:22:09.640 but there has to be

00:22:11.860 the support for that.

00:22:13.440 There has to be

00:22:14.240 large-scale support

00:22:15.720 and impetus for that.

00:22:17.300 Individual efforts

00:22:18.120 are great,

00:22:19.180 but you really need

00:22:20.580 collective efforts

00:22:21.440 and you really need it

00:22:22.500 from a top-down perspective

00:22:24.000 because otherwise

00:22:25.120 it'll just be seen

00:22:26.420 as one-off

00:22:29.740 individual attempts

00:22:31.280 to make changes

00:22:32.280 as opposed to

00:22:33.400 what I would consider

00:22:34.840 to be important

00:22:35.600 global changes.

00:22:36.900 Yeah, perhaps

00:22:38.520 the unfortunate

00:22:39.900 assassination of Charlie

00:22:41.340 Kirk might open

00:22:42.900 the window

00:22:43.400 to be able to talk

00:22:44.140 about the importance

00:22:44.860 of speech

00:22:45.360 and what happens

00:22:46.140 when we vilify it

00:22:47.180 so much

00:22:47.560 and call people

00:22:48.200 fascists

00:22:48.800 for having middling,

00:22:50.100 you know,

00:22:50.460 middle-of-the-ground

00:22:51.060 opinions.

00:22:52.020 So I really appreciate

00:22:53.220 you taking the time

00:22:54.080 to talk to me today

00:22:55.320 and yeah,

00:22:56.700 thank you very much.

00:22:57.680 Free expression

00:22:58.240 is so important

00:22:59.660 in a society

00:23:00.360 that values liberty

00:23:01.640 and we need

00:23:02.880 your voice

00:23:03.240 to keep that

00:23:03.700 conversation alive.

00:23:05.080 If you're a student

00:23:06.160 and maybe you feel

00:23:07.280 unable to express

00:23:08.300 yourself at school

00:23:09.780 or college

00:23:10.900 or university,

00:23:12.220 I'd love you to share

00:23:13.080 your story in the comments.

00:23:14.840 If you found this

00:23:15.520 conversation valuable,

00:23:16.640 I'd love you to like

00:23:17.680 and maybe subscribe

00:23:18.600 and share the show.

00:23:20.640 For True North,

00:23:21.600 I'm Melanie Bennett.

00:23:22.960 Thanks for watching

00:23:23.540 and I'll see you next week.

00:23:24.480 Thank you.

Juno News - September 18, 2025

Inside Canada's free speech crisis

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