Juno News - Is decriminalizing hard drugs the solution to the drug crisis？

00:00:00.000 I don't know that you and I necessarily see eye to eye when it comes to the issue of

00:00:03.480 decriminalizing drugs, Andrew, but I can't understand why a prime minister would sort

00:00:09.140 of unilaterally announce that one province out of 10, they're now legalizing drugs or decriminalizing

00:00:16.240 hard drugs. We're talking about hard drugs. We're talking about opioids, cocaine, ecstasy, MDMA.

00:00:21.320 Like, so, you know, as of January 31st, 2023, Canadians over the age of 18 will be legally

00:00:29.280 able to possess 2.5 grams of these hard drugs. And we're told that the purpose of this is to combat

00:00:35.680 the rise in drug overdoses and this sort of epidemic of opioid addiction and drug overdoses.

00:00:43.680 Do you think decriminalization is the best way to help people who are addicted to drugs?

00:00:49.700 Well, I think that you're asking a question there that I would say no to, but that doesn't mean I'm

00:00:55.600 not for decriminalization. And I'd say there are two things. Number one, I'm a libertarian. And when

00:01:01.140 you're talking about people that are doing things to themselves, however unhealthy or risky they are,

00:01:05.420 I think that they need to be able to make these decisions for themselves. But I say that recognizing

00:01:10.200 addiction is a disease. And despite the challenges that you see from drug addicts in a lot of

00:01:16.080 communities, especially in BC, I think this needs to be dealt with. I think when people who are using 0.51

00:01:21.260 drugs are breaking other laws, those other laws need to be enforced. And I think that's what a lot

00:01:26.620 of the activists don't really want to talk about, because I do know that families are very much

00:01:32.500 affected by this. Businesses are affected by it. I see it in my city of London as well, which is

00:01:37.440 rapidly, I don't know if it's reaching BC level numbers, but it's certainly rapidly rising in drug use.

00:01:44.220 But I think there's another side of this though, which is you look at the status quo,

00:01:48.040 has this helped? Has this worked? And some people may say no, and there's de facto

00:01:53.400 decriminalization. A lot of the times in BC and elsewhere, police are only going after those who

00:01:59.100 have volumes where they'd be trafficking anyway. So there's been effectively a decriminalization

00:02:04.180 policy. But even if that's the case, I'd look and I'd say that criminal prohibition has not stopped

00:02:09.560 all of these problems that we see in communities across the country, across North America. So if there is

00:02:16.620 some way that we could just take that criminal aspect out of the equation and make treatment

00:02:22.780 available and more widespread, I think that would be desirable. And I realize there are a lot of ifs

00:02:28.040 there, but I don't think that anyone can say that the situation we have today is a resounding success

00:02:33.200 for the prohibition model.

00:02:34.760 Well, I would take just the opposite position, because I grew up in Vancouver. And even in the

00:02:40.240 90s, in the 2000s, drug use is rampant, right? Like people are using cocaine, people are using

00:02:46.500 ecstasy, people are using heroin, it's everywhere. And that was under a regime that, you know,

00:02:53.340 like you said, they look the other way. And so this whole idea that, like, to me, this signals from the

00:02:59.340 Trudeau government, like, we're just kind of throwing our hands up, and we're not going to

00:03:04.000 have a policing element at all. And I think the reality is that living in a city like that living

00:03:08.920 in Vancouver, where drugs are everywhere, everybody uses drugs. And when I say drugs, I mean, mostly

00:03:15.260 marijuana, people smoke pot, or they take other kinds of, like lighter drugs, I guess. But then a lot

00:03:21.460 of people do move into the heavier stuff, Andrew. And it's not like it's a personal, internalized

00:03:27.880 use, right? When you're when you're using drugs, there's externalities, go, go, go take a look at

00:03:32.920 the Lower East Side of Vancouver, and see sort of the what I think is, is, I mean, it looks like a

00:03:39.640 war zone. There's just people with no, no dignity whatsoever. No one's taking care of them. There's 0.99

00:03:45.880 no there's no care, there's no hope, you know, people are just indulging in the most sort of

00:03:51.640 self destructive behavior possible. And now we have, we already have a situation where there's safe

00:03:56.560 injection sites, and where there's government enabling this kind of thing, where you can get

00:03:59.920 your drugs tested to make sure that they're not poisoned or what have you. And now you have the

00:04:05.360 true government signaling like, hey, we're going to take more steps to enable this this sort of

00:04:11.620 incredibly destructive behavior. It's not just Vancouver, that it happens to cities all over

00:04:17.460 Canada, as you mentioned, even in, in Little London, Ontario, but but certainly Calgary, Vancouver,

00:04:22.600 Toronto, any big city, Edmonton, even, I've seen heavy, heavy drug use. And I just I just can't

00:04:28.600 understand how taking a step towards allowing more people to use this to enter into this type of

00:04:35.960 lifestyle. Like how that's going to help minimize drug addictions and minimize the harm that comes from

00:04:43.720 drugs. Well, I think you have to look at the motivation. And the question is, are we trying to and

00:04:49.320 is this trying to normalize and endorse drug use? Or is it trying to reframe the way that we try to

00:04:56.920 get people off of drugs? And I'll be the first to admit, I know there are activists out there that are

00:05:01.640 completely okay with the normalization of after people that say yes, it's a legitimate life choice,

00:05:07.240 not just it's your choice to make, but it's a legitimate thing that we shouldn't get in the way of.

00:05:11.320 And I have significant issues with so called safe supply programs that try to say that, you know,

00:05:16.600 we should be able to offer people a quote unquote, safe version of the street drug they're using,

00:05:22.520 because this isn't working either. And I think that does go down the road of normalizing. But

00:05:27.720 if we are trying to get people off of drugs, and we're trying to get people into the pipeline,

00:05:31.560 and we have treatment available to them, the rationale that I do think has to merit is that

00:05:36.360 people shouldn't be afraid of getting arrested if they want to seek that. Now, I would be completely

00:05:42.040 okay with some stopgap, a measure that said you have to go through treatment, or you have to face

00:05:50.440 charges for whatever the offense is, I think that would be a legitimate in between. What I don't like

00:05:56.040 is and you and I probably agree on this is this idea that criminal law is now like locality dependent,

00:06:02.360 this thing that's supposed to be national, now changes depending on where in the country you are,

00:06:06.680 which is not supposed to be how criminal law is. Well, I don't mind the idea that if you if you're

00:06:12.120 found with heroin or drugs, heroin or cocaine or something, you have a choice of going into treatment

00:06:17.160 or face charges. But but it seems like this, this obsession with what they call small amounts,

00:06:22.200 that there's no there's no penalty whatsoever. If you if you're caught with the heroin, and you say,

00:06:26.280 oh, it's just for me, then it's like, okay, go ahead. Have a great day, sir.

00:06:30.040 But if you're not breaking any other law, what's the problem with that? If you're not doing anything

00:06:34.520 else illegal? Well, it's it's like the question is, Andrew, like, what kind of society do you want?

00:06:39.400 What kind of like world you want to live in where we as a society and our laws and our political

00:06:43.880 leaders say, you know, yeah, there's no meaning to life, there's no you have no dignity to your

00:06:48.840 body, you can go ahead and completely desecrate yourself. And you can you can take heroin until you

00:06:54.600 die. And this is just that's just another lifestyle choice, right? There's there's no moral

00:07:00.120 good or bad. And I think that when you get down that path where you're saying to people,

00:07:04.440 go ahead, you know, you do your heroin and just keep to yourself. It's like,

00:07:08.120 again, go spend some time in in the Lower East Side of Vancouver, I lived in San Francisco for

00:07:12.600 two years. It is a disgusting hellhole of a place to watch people, the lack of dignity,

00:07:20.280 watching people defecate on the streets, watching people sleeping, watching people chewing off their 0.99

00:07:25.480 fingernails, watching people struggling through the addiction, the horrible addictions that come

00:07:30.680 along with drugs. And then of course, you know, when they when they run out of drugs, and they want

00:07:34.680 their next kick, what do they do? They go out and rob people, they go out and rob stores, they break,

00:07:39.800 they smash windows, they, they destroyed the city. And again, go to go to Lucy that event,

00:07:45.160 Lower East Side of Vancouver, go to the Tenderloin District of San Francisco, and you will see hell on

00:07:51.000 earth. Right. And so it's like, again, what's the problem? It's other people, it's it's it's

00:07:55.960 their life, they can destroy it all they want. It's like, at some point, you have to ask what kind

00:07:59.160 of community do you want to live in? What kind of country do you want to live? What kind of place

00:08:02.280 do you want your kids growing up in? And to me, I've seen that. And it's not something that I

00:08:06.760 would advocate for anybody. I mean, I feel sorry for I feel sympathy for people who are down that lifestyle.

00:08:11.400 But I think that the reason that they go down that path is because they have no other option,

00:08:15.320 there's no one there to help them. A lot of times they have mental health issues. And I think that

00:08:19.160 there's a lot better ways to actually help those people and stop them from using drugs

00:08:23.960 than to say, Okay, well, it's just for your personal use. So go have it have a good day,

00:08:27.400 sir. That that would be my that that's where I stand. Yeah. And again, I don't think this is a

00:08:33.000 legitimate life choice. The question is, do I trust government to be the arbiter of what your life

00:08:38.440 should look like? And the answer is a resounding no, because I don't think and I know it's a bit of a

00:08:43.000 straw man. But I don't think we want a world where the government is the one that decides the

00:08:47.080 appropriate level of risk for for other activities people partake in, whatever they are,

00:08:52.040 I realized drugs destroy families, I realized drugs destroy communities. And interestingly

00:08:56.440 enough, you mentioned San Francisco, I had heard about all of that with like the human excrement 0.96

00:09:00.760 on the streets. I just didn't know how true it was like literally my first time and my only time in

00:09:06.600 San Francisco. Like I walk out the door of my hotel, which is very nice hotel, and there it is

00:09:11.160 on the side of the sidewalk. So very much a real thing. I just don't think that criminalization is

00:09:17.960 the path to do it. I think you have private charity groups, you have a lot of advocacy groups that are

00:09:22.920 working on this, that I think should and could be doing a lot more on this to get people off of drugs.

00:09:29.240 I just don't think the prohibition model has worked. And I think that what we have now is a reflection of

00:09:33.400 that. I mean, I think that that could be the case when you look at something like marijuana,

00:09:39.080 and you could say, okay, if someone's using marijuana, that the only person that they're

00:09:42.680 really impacting is themselves. But when you're talking about these other drugs, I mean, it's so

00:09:46.680 clear that there's externalities, because you're not living, you know, if these people could take

00:09:50.840 drugs and just be in like a complete, you know, sorry, they could be in a room with like, like padded walls

00:09:57.800 or something like that, then it's like, okay, I guess go nuts. But the reality is that they do them

00:10:01.960 out on the street. And and there's all kinds of runoffs. And to me, again, this is like peak woke

00:10:09.160 Trudeau pushing the most sort of whatever the trendiest leftist cause of the day is

Juno News - June 03, 2022

Is decriminalizing hard drugs the solution to the drug crisis？

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