Juno News - June 03, 2022


Is decriminalizing hard drugs the solution to the drug crisis？


Episode Stats

Length

10 minutes

Words per Minute

201.62495

Word Count

2,068

Sentence Count

84

Hate Speech Sentences

2


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 I don't know that you and I necessarily see eye to eye when it comes to the issue of
00:00:03.480 decriminalizing drugs, Andrew, but I can't understand why a prime minister would sort
00:00:09.140 of unilaterally announce that one province out of 10, they're now legalizing drugs or decriminalizing
00:00:16.240 hard drugs. We're talking about hard drugs. We're talking about opioids, cocaine, ecstasy, MDMA.
00:00:21.320 Like, so, you know, as of January 31st, 2023, Canadians over the age of 18 will be legally
00:00:29.280 able to possess 2.5 grams of these hard drugs. And we're told that the purpose of this is to combat
00:00:35.680 the rise in drug overdoses and this sort of epidemic of opioid addiction and drug overdoses.
00:00:43.680 Do you think decriminalization is the best way to help people who are addicted to drugs?
00:00:49.700 Well, I think that you're asking a question there that I would say no to, but that doesn't mean I'm
00:00:55.600 not for decriminalization. And I'd say there are two things. Number one, I'm a libertarian. And when
00:01:01.140 you're talking about people that are doing things to themselves, however unhealthy or risky they are,
00:01:05.420 I think that they need to be able to make these decisions for themselves. But I say that recognizing
00:01:10.200 addiction is a disease. And despite the challenges that you see from drug addicts in a lot of
00:01:16.080 communities, especially in BC, I think this needs to be dealt with. I think when people who are using
00:01:21.260 drugs are breaking other laws, those other laws need to be enforced. And I think that's what a lot
00:01:26.620 of the activists don't really want to talk about, because I do know that families are very much
00:01:32.500 affected by this. Businesses are affected by it. I see it in my city of London as well, which is
00:01:37.440 rapidly, I don't know if it's reaching BC level numbers, but it's certainly rapidly rising in drug use.
00:01:44.220 But I think there's another side of this though, which is you look at the status quo,
00:01:48.040 has this helped? Has this worked? And some people may say no, and there's de facto
00:01:53.400 decriminalization. A lot of the times in BC and elsewhere, police are only going after those who
00:01:59.100 have volumes where they'd be trafficking anyway. So there's been effectively a decriminalization
00:02:04.180 policy. But even if that's the case, I'd look and I'd say that criminal prohibition has not stopped
00:02:09.560 all of these problems that we see in communities across the country, across North America. So if there is
00:02:16.620 some way that we could just take that criminal aspect out of the equation and make treatment
00:02:22.780 available and more widespread, I think that would be desirable. And I realize there are a lot of ifs
00:02:28.040 there, but I don't think that anyone can say that the situation we have today is a resounding success
00:02:33.200 for the prohibition model.
00:02:34.760 Well, I would take just the opposite position, because I grew up in Vancouver. And even in the
00:02:40.240 90s, in the 2000s, drug use is rampant, right? Like people are using cocaine, people are using
00:02:46.500 ecstasy, people are using heroin, it's everywhere. And that was under a regime that, you know,
00:02:53.340 like you said, they look the other way. And so this whole idea that, like, to me, this signals from the
00:02:59.340 Trudeau government, like, we're just kind of throwing our hands up, and we're not going to
00:03:04.000 have a policing element at all. And I think the reality is that living in a city like that living
00:03:08.920 in Vancouver, where drugs are everywhere, everybody uses drugs. And when I say drugs, I mean, mostly
00:03:15.260 marijuana, people smoke pot, or they take other kinds of, like lighter drugs, I guess. But then a lot
00:03:21.460 of people do move into the heavier stuff, Andrew. And it's not like it's a personal, internalized
00:03:27.880 use, right? When you're when you're using drugs, there's externalities, go, go, go take a look at
00:03:32.920 the Lower East Side of Vancouver, and see sort of the what I think is, is, I mean, it looks like a
00:03:39.640 war zone. There's just people with no, no dignity whatsoever. No one's taking care of them. There's
00:03:45.880 no there's no care, there's no hope, you know, people are just indulging in the most sort of
00:03:51.640 self destructive behavior possible. And now we have, we already have a situation where there's safe
00:03:56.560 injection sites, and where there's government enabling this kind of thing, where you can get
00:03:59.920 your drugs tested to make sure that they're not poisoned or what have you. And now you have the
00:04:05.360 true government signaling like, hey, we're going to take more steps to enable this this sort of
00:04:11.620 incredibly destructive behavior. It's not just Vancouver, that it happens to cities all over
00:04:17.460 Canada, as you mentioned, even in, in Little London, Ontario, but but certainly Calgary, Vancouver,
00:04:22.600 Toronto, any big city, Edmonton, even, I've seen heavy, heavy drug use. And I just I just can't
00:04:28.600 understand how taking a step towards allowing more people to use this to enter into this type of
00:04:35.960 lifestyle. Like how that's going to help minimize drug addictions and minimize the harm that comes from
00:04:43.720 drugs. Well, I think you have to look at the motivation. And the question is, are we trying to and
00:04:49.320 is this trying to normalize and endorse drug use? Or is it trying to reframe the way that we try to
00:04:56.920 get people off of drugs? And I'll be the first to admit, I know there are activists out there that are
00:05:01.640 completely okay with the normalization of after people that say yes, it's a legitimate life choice,
00:05:07.240 not just it's your choice to make, but it's a legitimate thing that we shouldn't get in the way of.
00:05:11.320 And I have significant issues with so called safe supply programs that try to say that, you know,
00:05:16.600 we should be able to offer people a quote unquote, safe version of the street drug they're using,
00:05:22.520 because this isn't working either. And I think that does go down the road of normalizing. But
00:05:27.720 if we are trying to get people off of drugs, and we're trying to get people into the pipeline,
00:05:31.560 and we have treatment available to them, the rationale that I do think has to merit is that
00:05:36.360 people shouldn't be afraid of getting arrested if they want to seek that. Now, I would be completely
00:05:42.040 okay with some stopgap, a measure that said you have to go through treatment, or you have to face
00:05:50.440 charges for whatever the offense is, I think that would be a legitimate in between. What I don't like
00:05:56.040 is and you and I probably agree on this is this idea that criminal law is now like locality dependent,
00:06:02.360 this thing that's supposed to be national, now changes depending on where in the country you are,
00:06:06.680 which is not supposed to be how criminal law is. Well, I don't mind the idea that if you if you're
00:06:12.120 found with heroin or drugs, heroin or cocaine or something, you have a choice of going into treatment
00:06:17.160 or face charges. But but it seems like this, this obsession with what they call small amounts,
00:06:22.200 that there's no there's no penalty whatsoever. If you if you're caught with the heroin, and you say,
00:06:26.280 oh, it's just for me, then it's like, okay, go ahead. Have a great day, sir.
00:06:30.040 But if you're not breaking any other law, what's the problem with that? If you're not doing anything
00:06:34.520 else illegal? Well, it's it's like the question is, Andrew, like, what kind of society do you want?
00:06:39.400 What kind of like world you want to live in where we as a society and our laws and our political
00:06:43.880 leaders say, you know, yeah, there's no meaning to life, there's no you have no dignity to your
00:06:48.840 body, you can go ahead and completely desecrate yourself. And you can you can take heroin until you
00:06:54.600 die. And this is just that's just another lifestyle choice, right? There's there's no moral
00:07:00.120 good or bad. And I think that when you get down that path where you're saying to people,
00:07:04.440 go ahead, you know, you do your heroin and just keep to yourself. It's like,
00:07:08.120 again, go spend some time in in the Lower East Side of Vancouver, I lived in San Francisco for
00:07:12.600 two years. It is a disgusting hellhole of a place to watch people, the lack of dignity,
00:07:20.280 watching people defecate on the streets, watching people sleeping, watching people chewing off their
00:07:25.480 fingernails, watching people struggling through the addiction, the horrible addictions that come
00:07:30.680 along with drugs. And then of course, you know, when they when they run out of drugs, and they want
00:07:34.680 their next kick, what do they do? They go out and rob people, they go out and rob stores, they break,
00:07:39.800 they smash windows, they, they destroyed the city. And again, go to go to Lucy that event,
00:07:45.160 Lower East Side of Vancouver, go to the Tenderloin District of San Francisco, and you will see hell on
00:07:51.000 earth. Right. And so it's like, again, what's the problem? It's other people, it's it's it's
00:07:55.960 their life, they can destroy it all they want. It's like, at some point, you have to ask what kind
00:07:59.160 of community do you want to live in? What kind of country do you want to live? What kind of place
00:08:02.280 do you want your kids growing up in? And to me, I've seen that. And it's not something that I
00:08:06.760 would advocate for anybody. I mean, I feel sorry for I feel sympathy for people who are down that lifestyle.
00:08:11.400 But I think that the reason that they go down that path is because they have no other option,
00:08:15.320 there's no one there to help them. A lot of times they have mental health issues. And I think that
00:08:19.160 there's a lot better ways to actually help those people and stop them from using drugs
00:08:23.960 than to say, Okay, well, it's just for your personal use. So go have it have a good day,
00:08:27.400 sir. That that would be my that that's where I stand. Yeah. And again, I don't think this is a
00:08:33.000 legitimate life choice. The question is, do I trust government to be the arbiter of what your life
00:08:38.440 should look like? And the answer is a resounding no, because I don't think and I know it's a bit of a
00:08:43.000 straw man. But I don't think we want a world where the government is the one that decides the
00:08:47.080 appropriate level of risk for for other activities people partake in, whatever they are,
00:08:52.040 I realized drugs destroy families, I realized drugs destroy communities. And interestingly
00:08:56.440 enough, you mentioned San Francisco, I had heard about all of that with like the human excrement
00:09:00.760 on the streets. I just didn't know how true it was like literally my first time and my only time in
00:09:06.600 San Francisco. Like I walk out the door of my hotel, which is very nice hotel, and there it is
00:09:11.160 on the side of the sidewalk. So very much a real thing. I just don't think that criminalization is
00:09:17.960 the path to do it. I think you have private charity groups, you have a lot of advocacy groups that are
00:09:22.920 working on this, that I think should and could be doing a lot more on this to get people off of drugs.
00:09:29.240 I just don't think the prohibition model has worked. And I think that what we have now is a reflection of
00:09:33.400 that. I mean, I think that that could be the case when you look at something like marijuana,
00:09:39.080 and you could say, okay, if someone's using marijuana, that the only person that they're
00:09:42.680 really impacting is themselves. But when you're talking about these other drugs, I mean, it's so
00:09:46.680 clear that there's externalities, because you're not living, you know, if these people could take
00:09:50.840 drugs and just be in like a complete, you know, sorry, they could be in a room with like, like padded walls
00:09:57.800 or something like that, then it's like, okay, I guess go nuts. But the reality is that they do them
00:10:01.960 out on the street. And and there's all kinds of runoffs. And to me, again, this is like peak woke
00:10:09.160 Trudeau pushing the most sort of whatever the trendiest leftist cause of the day is