Juno News - Is self-government the answer to the Canada-Indigenous relationship？

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:06.660 This is The Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:00:12.740 Coming up, we do a deep dive into Canada's relationship with its Indigenous peoples and its Indigenous communities.

00:00:19.720 What are the problems, and more importantly, what are the solutions?

00:00:25.240 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.

00:00:30.000 Hello, and welcome to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:00:34.400 This is Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show here on True North.

00:00:37.980 It's the Friday show, which means we do things a little bit differently.

00:00:41.220 Rather than delving into the news of the day, which this past week has been rather depressing,

00:00:46.880 we take a big issue and do a deep dive into it, not necessarily trying to solve all the problems of the world,

00:00:52.160 but certainly trying to give it the attention and insight it very much needs.

00:00:56.380 And the issue I want to talk about today is the relationship that Canada has with its Indigenous citizens and its Indigenous communities.

00:01:04.940 Every election this comes up, between elections this comes up.

00:01:08.520 We have stories about energy projects being met with Indigenous or purportedly Indigenous protesters.

00:01:14.480 We have the announcements of unmarked graves at the sites of former residential schools.

00:01:19.280 We had Justin Trudeau lowering the Canadian flag.

00:01:22.040 We have all of these things, but are we anywhere close to finding a solution to these challenges?

00:01:28.640 Is such a solution even possible?

00:01:30.900 We have two fantastic guests here to discuss this.

00:01:34.180 Melissa Embarkey is an Indigenous woman herself, a policy analyst and outreach coordinator at the Macdonald-Laurier Institute,

00:01:40.960 and also a woman with over 14 years of experience in Canada's oil and gas sector.

00:01:46.240 Also, we have Dr. Heather Exner-Perot, a fellow with the Macdonald-Laurier Institute,

00:01:51.520 and a researcher who's done a number of work in political science,

00:01:54.940 but also specifically looking at Indigenous issues, Northern issues, and Indigenous economic development.

00:02:01.420 Heather, Melissa, thank you both so much. It's good to have you here.

00:02:04.660 Thanks for having us.

00:02:06.360 I want to start with you on this one, Melissa.

00:02:08.720 When we talk about these issues between Indigenous communities and Canada,

00:02:12.880 or the Canadian government specifically, is it clear what we're even talking about here?

00:02:17.600 I know that there tends to be this view of Indigenous people as one homogenous group,

00:02:22.520 which we know is not the case.

00:02:24.160 There are issues in the north, issues in the west, issues in my part of the country, in southern Ontario,

00:02:29.880 clean drinking water, energy projects, resistance to energy projects.

00:02:33.920 So what are we really talking about here as being the problem or problems?

00:02:38.400 That's true. I mean, the concerns that you would have in Saskatchewan where I grew up

00:02:42.280 aren't going to be the same concerns that you have in British Columbia, for example.

00:02:46.800 So we have to really parse out what the issue is.

00:02:50.160 We need to know the area that's in question.

00:02:52.580 We need to kind of know, you know, what's in conflict, you know, what are these communities

00:02:57.860 not agreeing on?

00:02:59.640 And I think we really have to start at the grassroots level.

00:03:02.100 Like, is this an issue within the community that doesn't necessarily deal with, you know,

00:03:09.280 operators or natural resource development?

00:03:11.820 And a lot of the times what you're going to see is that it's actually issues within the communities themselves.

00:03:16.880 And, you know, and it kind of pours out into the public as an opposition to something which isn't true.

00:03:22.740 So let me just drill down into that a little bit further if I can here, because when we are talking

00:03:30.020 about experiences or frustrations that Indigenous Canadians hold that require political solutions

00:03:36.780 in some way, we'll narrow it down a little bit there.

00:03:39.400 How many of these issues are really just general concerns that impact all Canadians in the same

00:03:44.860 way that, you know, affordability, taxes and regulations do versus concerns that are very

00:03:50.160 specific to Indigenous people?

00:03:52.180 Well, what we can see and what I've been seeing in the last little while is, you know, when

00:03:58.160 you have an, take for example, under Bill C-15, this directly impacted Indigenous communities

00:04:04.140 and it impacted, you know, people like myself.

00:04:06.980 Whereas if I'm looking, you know, broader and more general, when you look at urban areas,

00:04:13.040 that's not going to be an issue, you know, so we have to look at the bills and who they

00:04:18.000 impact and how they impact them, because it could impact us differently than it would a

00:04:23.480 Canadian, you know, a taxpayer in an urban area.

00:04:27.620 So even with water, we have to look at, you know, different facets of it, you know, we have to look

00:04:33.600 at it from a municipality level, from a reserve perspective, and even right down to, you know,

00:04:39.580 you know, can we access water from other sources?

00:04:42.780 So we're intertwined in a lot of ways, but bills and legislation that goes through is often very

00:04:49.660 specific for reserves.

00:04:51.560 And we need to kind of look at that from, like, from an internal reserve, you know, perspective.

00:04:58.260 Whereas, you know, from your perspective, it might not be an issue, but for us, it would be pretty big.

00:05:03.580 How did you, Heather, get so tied in with Indigenous issues in the first place?

00:05:09.880 A good question.

00:05:10.980 I'm not an Indigenous person.

00:05:12.340 I'm from Saskatchewan.

00:05:13.740 And I think growing up in Saskatchewan in the 90s, we didn't talk about treaties.

00:05:17.400 We didn't talk about residential schools.

00:05:19.020 There was none of that.

00:05:19.780 I went through university in a social sciences degree and had almost no Indigenous content at

00:05:25.520 the University of Saskatchewan in the 90s.

00:05:27.800 So it was actually when I did my master's, I did it.

00:05:29.980 I liked, you know, international development was a big thing.

00:05:33.400 And I did it in Southern Chile with the Weiche and the Mapuche people. 1.00

00:05:38.720 And then when I came back to Canada, it was like, oh, we have a lot of these same Indigenous 0.73

00:05:42.220 issues here, too.

00:05:44.340 So I just started working on that, started working on some Arctic things, which is, you

00:05:48.000 know, a lot of Indigenous things there.

00:05:50.240 And then did start doing more Northern and Indigenous development.

00:05:53.480 And that's how I got involved with Saskatchewan Indigenous Economic Development Network.

00:05:56.260 And I guess my PhD is in political science, but, you know, and Melissa knows this, too.

00:06:01.240 When you start to think about all the problems, water, poverty, education, housing, things

00:06:06.320 like that, health, mental health, addictions, trauma, the solution is often found in economic

00:06:13.640 development, having jobs, having resources, having opportunities so that the community can

00:06:19.540 solve these issues themselves and not have to rely on the federal government.

00:06:22.100 So I think you touched on a very important part of the discussion here when you bring

00:06:27.040 up economic development, because I've read a lot of frustrations in particular from Indigenous 1.00

00:06:32.020 folks in Canada about what seem like very symbolic responses.

00:06:36.720 And that could be the flag being lowered, the Canadian flag being lowered for several months,

00:06:41.340 statues coming down, commemorations around residential schools.

00:06:45.120 And it's not to say that there's anything bad or disqualifying about doing any of these

00:06:50.160 issues. But if you're not accompanying it with anything that's solving these underlying

00:06:54.420 issues, you're not really doing all that much.

00:06:56.720 So why is economic development, in your view, the road to solving a lot of those concerns

00:07:02.560 that you just laid out there that are very distinct?

00:07:05.840 From my perspective, self-determination is maybe the most important human and community right.

00:07:11.300 Nations deserve to have self-determination.

00:07:13.240 I think most people can agree with that.

00:07:14.880 That's the fundamental Western, liberal, Indigenous kind of value.

00:07:19.020 And in the last 30, 40 years, First Nations peoples, Métis peoples, Inuit people have

00:07:23.440 made great strides in political self-determination, getting kind of de jure, legal, more control,

00:07:30.400 more power over their affairs.

00:07:32.000 But that has not been paired with economic self-determination.

00:07:35.040 So when you still rely on the federal government for 80 or 90% of your revenues, it's very hard

00:07:40.140 to be self-determining.

00:07:41.120 It's very hard to make your own decisions and you still have to go and get permission

00:07:44.580 for the minister and the Indian Act to do any of those things or get funding if you want

00:07:48.780 to do more in housing or education or health.

00:07:51.280 So for me, having that, the independence that comes from having your own sources of revenues

00:07:57.560 and not relying on another level of government, which is often antagonistic, is the best way

00:08:04.040 for First Nations to have self-determination and therefore make their own decisions, which we

00:08:09.300 know in governance and political science theory are going to be better decisions than other

00:08:12.800 people making those for them.

00:08:14.600 We know, Melissa, there are some very wealthy communities, especially out west, that can

00:08:20.260 rely very heavily on natural resource development.

00:08:24.400 There are also communities that don't have that to lean on.

00:08:27.240 Some communities in the far north that don't have necessarily oil resources and southern

00:08:32.220 Ontario, Quebec that don't as well.

00:08:34.220 So is that idea of being able to develop economically something that can be more evenly attained or

00:08:40.940 is it very limited to just that kind of one part of the country, the west?

00:08:45.400 Well, I definitely think, you know, sovereignty is the key in this because each community knows

00:08:50.120 how they can move forward and better their community.

00:08:55.620 Mine, for example, like we don't have access to natural resources, but where we've invested

00:09:00.760 is in bringing our child and family services back to my community.

00:09:04.800 So we've worked with provincial and federal government to do this.

00:09:07.860 And in addition to this, you know, we're opening a treatment center, we're opening a family

00:09:11.640 healing center.

00:09:12.960 So we're doing things, you know, that will bring jobs to our community.

00:09:17.100 Not a whole lot of jobs that a natural resource sector would bring, but they are jobs, long-term

00:09:21.700 jobs nonetheless.

00:09:23.140 So we have to listen to First Nations communities and what they want.

00:09:27.040 You know, we can't be telling them you need to do this, this, and this, because each area

00:09:30.960 is different.

00:09:31.980 Some are more north, some are south, some are in areas, you know, but next to urban areas

00:09:36.660 like Enoch First Nation is next to Edmonton.

00:09:39.240 So they have a better chance of being economically independent, whereas some reserves don't.

00:09:45.140 So this is where each voice matters.

00:09:47.340 And this is where listening to the communities matter, because what they want and what they

00:09:52.940 need, you know, they've thought this through.

00:09:54.800 And like-minded.

00:09:56.600 So that's why it is important to listen to the elected chief and councils and what they

00:10:01.060 are asking for.

00:10:02.840 I'd like to talk in a bit of detail with you both about what it is that Indigenous communities

00:10:07.780 want.

00:10:08.280 And I realized that this could change from community to community.

00:10:11.980 And I mean, growing up, and this could be coming from a place of ignorance, the primary

00:10:15.660 concern that I was exposed to involved land claims.

00:10:19.000 And, you know, I'm from Southern Ontario.

00:10:20.520 We had a couple of very high-profile cases about land claims and about land development

00:10:25.440 and these sorts of community projects that were encroaching on territory that was in dispute.

00:10:32.260 How central are the land claim issues still in 2021 to a lot of the concerns?

00:10:38.000 Oh, there's a lot of concerns with land claims, because if anything, they take decades to resolve.

00:10:45.800 Like, this isn't a process that's going to happen tomorrow.

00:10:48.600 So I think what the government needs to do is they need to eliminate some of that red tape

00:10:52.300 in between, you know, and they need to start working with First Nations on where their land

00:10:57.460 is and result these claims.

00:11:00.940 You know, otherwise we're going to continue seeing protests.

00:11:02.960 We're going to continue seeing, you know, delays in everything.

00:11:07.520 So I think what we need to do is definitely start working on those TLE land claims in Saskatchewan,

00:11:14.380 get them finalized, you know, work on Ontario, get those finalized.

00:11:17.940 Let's get those out of the way first so that First Nations can thrive and succeed.

00:11:22.900 And you touched on something there that I imagine is just a massive, massive undertaking.

00:11:28.180 And I don't know, politically in Canada, and I'll go to you on this, Heather, is that even

00:11:33.200 possible within, you know, one, two, or three terms of a government to resolve this?

00:11:39.580 I think people need to know, like, a land claim in the north is not the same as land claim

00:11:44.200 in Saskatchewan is not the same as a land claim in BC, because the history and the governance

00:11:49.320 and the agreements were all made at different times and on different things.

00:11:52.740 And so in BC, where, you know, there was no treaty is a very different situation from

00:11:57.840 Saskatchewan, where it was just not enough was given, you know, in what was promised

00:12:02.480 originally.

00:12:03.240 And in the north, again, it's kind of a whole different cattle of fish.

00:12:08.020 So, so, so these are, there's moving targets.

00:12:11.200 The other thing is that there's two parties to this.

00:12:13.940 And so maybe a federal government would like to settle something in BC, but the community

00:12:17.740 is not ready to come to an agreement or hasn't had the time to do their due diligence

00:12:21.940 or doesn't have the capacity to do their due diligence in the settlement either.

00:12:25.800 And sometimes maybe it's the federal government that's dragging their heels.

00:12:28.440 So it's not, you know, there are different circumstances with different communities

00:12:32.120 and how that happens.

00:12:34.160 Why do we want these settled?

00:12:35.740 I think if you're interested in economic development and resource development, knowing who gets

00:12:40.280 to make the final decision, who's the decision maker, who can enter agreements under what

00:12:44.500 conditions would be very helpful.

00:12:46.900 Obviously, we're seeing that now with wet swim territory where there's, you know, confusion

00:12:51.340 over who is able to enter these agreements.

00:12:53.820 And you don't have quite the same problem in the north.

00:12:56.660 There are some competing claims, but to a lesser extent, or in the treaty areas, you know,

00:13:01.240 where, again, it is more settled.

00:13:03.240 So just having that certainty of knowing who gets to make the decisions and how their impacts,

00:13:08.060 I think that people don't appreciate, I'm sure Melissa would agree, most indigenous people 1.00

00:13:11.980 are not against resource development.

00:13:13.920 They're against being left out.

00:13:15.640 So if you're going to have development in their territory, not consult, not avoid sacred sites,

00:13:21.020 not involve people and the economic benefits that comes from it, yes, that's going to be

00:13:24.600 a problem.

00:13:25.520 But if you have settled land claims, the community is involved, the nation's involved, they've

00:13:29.380 agreed to a set of terms, they've agreed to the benefits, they have time prepared to benefit,

00:13:35.160 then they will probably be in favor.

00:13:36.980 Almost, you know, there are hundreds and hundreds of mining agreements, forestry agreements,

00:13:40.820 oil and gas agreements.

00:13:42.440 More often than not, they want that.

00:13:43.840 So just having the certainty for the developer, for the nation, for all levels of government

00:13:48.240 over whose land it is, who has title is so important.

00:13:52.560 Well, I know that was a big issue.

00:13:53.780 I think it was early last year with Tech Frontier withdrawing from its project or Tech

00:13:59.700 withdrawing from the Frontier project.

00:14:01.600 And one of the big concerns was a lot of the uncertainty surrounding indigenous communities

00:14:06.620 and pushback they were nervous about from protests.

00:14:10.140 And when you hear stories like that, Melissa, what's your take on it?

00:14:13.380 Because you've obviously been connected to indigenous people that really want these projects,

00:14:17.820 yet at the same time, for a lot of companies, they just see, they see a lot of indigenous

00:14:22.800 protests as being barriers to development.

00:14:25.880 I think, you know, we kind of see something similar in my own community where we agreed on

00:14:31.560 something, you know, the Chief and Council got 80% buy-in from the people.

00:14:35.900 And we had four or five people who weren't in agreeance to it.

00:14:41.840 So, you know, they were causing some chaos and they were, you know, trying to block highways

00:14:45.860 and trying to block railroads because they didn't agree with this, with what was proposed.

00:14:51.700 So what ended up happening is, you know, we tried to incorporate them more into the discussions.

00:14:58.320 You know, we tried to get, you know, specific answers of why they opposed it.

00:15:02.920 You know, we got their side of the story of, you know, kind of where their thinking was going.

00:15:07.780 And I think that's what most First Nations need to do.

00:15:09.920 You need to include the people, even the ones that are opposing it.

00:15:13.620 And we need to understand why.

00:15:15.600 And we need to look at the specific reasons why.

00:15:17.900 And I think if First Nations communities don't do this, they're going to see more opposition.

00:15:21.740 Like, it's just going to grow and grow and grow.

00:15:23.320 So part of it is up to us, you know, to make sure that education and knowledge is given at the right times.

00:15:30.180 And, you know, and even including them in decisions along the way.

00:15:34.540 Because if that's not happening, you're going to always have that divide.

00:15:37.800 So I think as First Nations, that's kind of what we have to deal with now is we have to get communities on board

00:15:43.220 and get everyone on board with the decision making.

00:15:46.320 And I'll add to that, Andrew, because I think the Frontier case is an interesting one

00:15:50.820 because the affected communities in the territory, and there's a little bit of discretion about who decides who's in the territory.

00:15:57.000 But they were all in support.

00:15:58.240 They had, you know, their agreements in place with TEC.

00:16:02.280 And the uncertainty came from whether the federal government would approve it anyways.

00:16:06.600 So the uncertainty was 100% on the federal side.

00:16:09.640 In that case, TEC did a good job actually consulting with First Nations and Métis settlements around there.

00:16:15.420 And so, and that's the problem you're seeing today.

00:16:18.700 And I think people are blaming, and Melissa knows this, people will blame First Nations.

00:16:22.900 But the problem is often not with the First Nations side.

00:16:25.340 It's with, you know, the political side of governments who, you know, maybe urban, you know,

00:16:31.060 their urban voters aren't in paper project, even though it doesn't impact them directly.

00:16:35.000 And then having to try to navigate that.

00:16:37.440 And it's certainly, like, we've lost, like, over $100 billion, $150 billion in energy projects

00:16:43.680 in the last four years in Canada.

00:16:45.980 We will lose mining projects.

00:16:47.480 We are not a competitive space for resource development because it is not easy to get a

00:16:51.520 permit.

00:16:51.920 It is not easy to get regulatory approval.

00:16:54.060 And you can spend hundreds of millions of dollars.

00:16:56.400 Northern Gateway spent $700 million, some people say more, to get to the point of getting told

00:17:01.440 no.

00:17:02.160 And we're seeing Keystone XL do that too, suing the Biden administration $15 billion that they

00:17:07.360 sunk into this after getting all the approvals.

00:17:09.460 So there's a lot of blame being laid at the feet of First Nations, but I don't think that's

00:17:14.660 usually where the problem is.

00:17:16.680 Well, that actually touches on, I think, a very important point, which is that we see

00:17:20.800 a lot of people in Canada who are ideologically against oil and gas sector development.

00:17:27.560 They're against pipelines that tend to latch on to Indigenous causes or purported Indigenous

00:17:33.960 causes.

00:17:34.580 And I know when you see some of these photos from some of these events, you're looking and

00:17:39.260 you're like, these are just environmental activists that I'm not sure are even from

00:17:42.720 this community.

00:17:43.900 How big an issue is that, Melissa?

00:17:46.260 That's a really big issue.

00:17:47.680 And a good example is the Wet'suwet'en community. 1.00

00:17:50.620 You know, like they took advantage of that divide.

00:17:53.520 And they took advantage of the people who opposed the pipelines.

00:17:56.320 And they sided with them and media, you know, the media ran with it and, you know, told the

00:18:02.140 story that wasn't necessarily the true story of what was going on.

00:18:07.200 And, you know, I think what we need to do is we need to hear all sides of the story.

00:18:11.120 And this is why I think Chief and Counsel is really important in getting that messaging

00:18:15.260 out.

00:18:15.820 Because at the end of the day, they're the ones that make the decisions.

00:18:18.340 And they're the ones that go through this consultation process.

00:18:22.060 Like, they're the ones that are on the ground trying to get these deals completed, finished,

00:18:27.200 signed.

00:18:27.860 And yet, they're the ones that are kind of, you know, they're kind of vilified in a sense

00:18:32.140 when they do say, yes, I'm in agreeance to this because of outsiders who may not agree

00:18:38.120 with the project.

00:18:39.220 So it's a very thin line, you know, that we're walking.

00:18:42.260 And we need to, and I come from the space where we need to tell all sides of the story.

00:18:46.300 We can't just tell one.

00:18:48.340 I want to talk for a moment, if we can, about that idea of the lack of homogeneity within

00:18:56.140 the Indigenous communities in Canada.

00:18:58.300 Because there isn't just one leader or one spokesperson that can represent all Indigenous

00:19:04.180 people.

00:19:04.780 And I know this is a challenge.

00:19:06.300 If you did have a leader, a Prime Minister that really wanted to get down and deal with

00:19:10.880 this and address the concerns, who are they negotiating with?

00:19:14.260 Who are they engaging in dialogue with?

00:19:16.120 And I was wondering if you could speak to that, Heather.

00:19:17.680 I mean, how complex would that process be to really completely start from scratch on

00:19:23.160 the Crown-Indigenous relationship in Canada?

00:19:25.360 Well, there's, I mean, there's so much going on there, as you know, Andrew.

00:19:30.840 So a lot of the problems stems from the fact that, you know, the Indian Act kind of disrupted

00:19:35.480 traditional governance systems and created this, you know, a democratically elected chief

00:19:40.240 and counsel who weren't necessarily representative, you know, for the first hundred years, you know,

00:19:43.960 it was maybe more the, you know, acting kind of as an Indian agent.

00:19:47.360 But now that has evolved.

00:19:48.420 And so now almost every First Nation, I think every First Nation uses elections, even if

00:19:54.040 they have had their own land claim and could choose a different system, but people still

00:19:58.380 prefer normally a democratically elected system and a chief and counsel.

00:20:02.840 But it's different in different places.

00:20:04.580 In some parts in the prairies, there isn't a hereditary system anymore.

00:20:08.840 Or, you know, it's been absorbed into kind of a democratic system, where in B.C., in some

00:20:14.620 communities and some nations, there are still the two kinds.

00:20:17.040 So it's not as though there's hereditary chiefs or that there's the same governance system all

00:20:21.400 across Canada and it's just, you know, out of control in B.C. or something like that.

00:20:26.880 And in lots of cases like the Haida, you know, they built it into the Constitution. 1.00

00:20:31.160 It works well.

00:20:32.340 They have figured out a way for elected and hereditary chiefs to work, you know, for the best

00:20:36.900 well-being of the community.

00:20:38.700 So it's not as though it's an inherently dysfunctional system to have a traditional and an elective

00:20:43.860 council.

00:20:44.860 But just, you know, in this particular community, there's a big polarization and going back to

00:20:49.320 your earlier question, people are definitely using the Wet'suwet'en Nation to further their

00:20:54.560 own agenda, probably on both sides, but I think a little bit more on the other side to blatantly,

00:21:00.000 you know, disregard the fact that the elected councils are in favor to disregard the fact the

00:21:05.940 majority of people in favor have voted for this in referendums, have reelected chiefs and

00:21:10.880 councillors who are in favor of it to just disregard all those people because they prefer

00:21:15.100 the hereditary chiefs message in this case.

00:21:17.560 And yet, you know, on C-48 in the Haida Nation, we're happy to strip hereditary chiefs of their 0.98

00:21:22.720 titles because they supported oil and gas.

00:21:24.720 Or we're happy to strip hereditary chiefs of the Wet'suwet'en of their titles because 0.99

00:21:28.800 they supported LNG.

00:21:29.720 So there is definitely some selective support for Indigenous rights.

00:21:33.880 And it does, you know, it does look like to the observer that you support Indigenous rights

00:21:39.240 when Indigenous rights support your agenda.

00:21:41.660 And if the hereditary chiefs took a different stance on this, I don't think they would get

00:21:46.260 the same kind of support.

00:21:47.260 I think we all know that.

00:21:48.660 I appreciate the background on the elected versus the hereditary chiefs, because I know

00:21:53.400 that's been a source of confusion, especially through some of these protests in the last

00:21:57.900 year and a bit.

00:21:58.780 I mean, my question was more about nationally.

00:22:01.500 There's no one national leader of all Indigenous communities who could go to the federal government

00:22:07.020 and negotiate on behalf of those.

00:22:09.660 So I'm just interested in what a renegotiation of the Indian Act and a renegotiation of the

00:22:17.080 government's relationships with Indigenous people would look like.

00:22:19.740 How big would that be?

00:22:21.400 And does that mean it would be too big to really be possible in our political system?

00:22:26.040 I'll speak to that quickly, Mala.

00:22:27.280 So the strategy that the federal government has chosen is to use opt-in legislation.

00:22:31.800 So there are quite a few federal government legislations that remove parts of the Indian

00:22:37.380 Act.

00:22:37.700 So the First Nations Land Management Act, First Nations Oil and Gas Management Act, First 0.66

00:22:41.840 Nations Election Act, which communities can opt into.

00:22:45.380 So when they negotiate it, it doesn't mean the 674, however you count it, First Nations

00:22:50.440 all have to say yes or all have to say no.

00:22:52.760 But they can take their turn and decide for themselves when they opt-in.

00:22:56.760 So the Land Management Act, Melissa probably knows this very well, takes away about a third

00:23:00.600 of the Indian Act.

00:23:01.940 All the sections, provisions of the Indian Act that provide for the lands.

00:23:06.780 And that can turn over to the community.

00:23:08.120 And the community develops its own land code.

00:23:09.660 So that's, and for me, that's the only logical strategy.

00:23:12.880 You can't force 670 plus First Nations to agree on something.

00:23:17.360 They are independent nations.

00:23:19.320 And so this opt-in, you know, strategy, I think is not perfect, but probably the least imperfect.

00:23:25.200 Do you want to add on to that, Melissa?

00:23:28.760 Yeah, I think what needs to happen is you need to start giving some of these communities,

00:23:32.640 the ones who are ready, you need to start giving them sovereignty.

00:23:35.500 And you need to start giving them autonomy on certain, you know, when it comes to land,

00:23:40.680 for example, from the Indian Act, they need to be able to manage their land the way they

00:23:44.780 see fit.

00:23:46.040 And we're not seeing, you know, the government let go of this control.

00:23:49.620 If anything, you know, they try to implement more control on First Nations communities. 0.50

00:23:54.660 So what we need to see is we need to give them the resources to manage their communities,

00:23:59.820 you know, and this would, you know, help them come up with solutions to some of their issues

00:24:04.600 like poverty or child and family.

00:24:07.400 So the more autonomy that you give them, you know, the better that they're going to be

00:24:10.660 managing their systems.

00:24:12.240 It's going to bring jobs to those communities. 0.97

00:24:13.860 It's going to bring, they're going to thrive at the end of the day.

00:24:17.420 And that's what we want to see.

00:24:18.700 But with the Indian Act, it's really constrained.

00:24:22.240 And you can't, like Heather said, you can't apply to all the First Nations reserves in

00:24:26.560 Canada because each is different.

00:24:28.500 So I think we have to get out of this mindset that we're a monolith.

00:24:31.600 We all operate the same way because we don't.

00:24:34.220 And, you know, this is where sovereignty comes into play.

00:24:36.660 If you give these communities a chance to make their own decisions, they're going to be

00:24:41.140 decisions that are the best for them and for the rest of Canada.

00:24:44.280 So what would sovereignty, we'll start with the land aspect specifically, management of

00:24:49.680 land, Melissa, what would sovereignty look like in practice?

00:24:52.800 And more importantly, what has the government really used as its primary argument against

00:24:58.200 granting that?

00:24:59.060 So land can be tricky.

00:25:02.600 You know, you can have land that's directly, you know, with the reserve or First Nation,

00:25:09.920 and then you can have land that was purchased by the First Nations.

00:25:13.140 So they have different titles that go along with them.

00:25:16.200 One could be federal and the other, they would own their title, like they would own that land

00:25:20.600 and it would be titled to them.

00:25:22.000 So allowing First Nations to, you know, utilize the reserve land, the federal land, the way

00:25:27.160 they see fit, because that's often where they want to do their, you know, it's often where

00:25:32.600 the extraction is, you know, in the land that they purchase could potentially be for more

00:25:38.200 homes or for more housing or for, you know, for, to provide a place for people to live.

00:25:44.600 So that's what we're kind of seeing in my community.

00:25:47.020 Whereas, you know, others, they might want to purchase land within a city or on the outside,

00:25:52.460 outskirts of a city and, you know, provide homes for their community members that are off 0.63

00:25:57.560 reserve.

00:25:57.860 So, you know, allowing us to do this and allowing us to, you know, work with cities, work with

00:26:03.280 urban planners, that would be a huge step, you know, regarding land and being able to

00:26:08.600 house our people.

00:26:11.120 And what's been the source of the government's resistance there?

00:26:14.260 I think the resistance is that when you're on reserve federal land, you're more controlled.

00:26:19.360 When you own your own land and it's titled and you're operating it the way you want, the

00:26:23.940 way you see fit, you know, there's, there's a balance that needs to happen.

00:26:28.420 And I think the government, from my perspective, is holding on to that control.

00:26:32.360 You know, they don't want to see autonomy.

00:26:34.260 They don't want to see us doing things that are out of their scope because, you know, it's

00:26:40.120 easier to control a group of people on a reserve than it is to control people off.

00:26:44.620 So, I mean, this is a very complicated issue because it's not, first of all, as a political

00:26:51.360 science, you know, PhD, I'm still good for the word sovereignty.

00:26:55.120 And so, for me, it's more self-governance, self-determination in kind of the international

00:26:59.860 system.

00:27:00.660 I don't think, I don't know of any First Nations or Inuit or Maitre Settlements that

00:27:04.260 want to have their own monetary, you know, their own currency or their own defense or

00:27:07.760 their own passport system.

00:27:08.860 So, not sovereign in the same way that we would think about it, you know, kind of in an

00:27:12.380 international context.

00:27:13.740 But having more control over lands is also, is not always easy for First Nations.

00:27:18.320 Some of these communities are two or three or 400 people and have limited capacity and

00:27:22.900 limited resources and are reluctant to take over more control unless maybe you agree with

00:27:28.960 me or don't.

00:27:29.820 Because as it is now, the federal government has a fiduciary duty.

00:27:33.340 If there is, you know, if there was the garbage dump leaked into the nearby stream, it would

00:27:37.800 be the federal government's liability.

00:27:39.540 They would have to pay for it.

00:27:41.320 If there was some other, you know, kind of settlement or appeal, the federal government

00:27:45.320 would have to pay for it.

00:27:46.180 It would have to pay for the legal costs.

00:27:47.280 It would have to pay for the mediation.

00:27:49.100 So, under the Land Management Act, for example, First Nation can take over more control and

00:27:53.620 then make their own laws and have their own land code.

00:27:55.600 And many have chosen to do that.

00:27:57.140 But some that are reluctant to do it are reluctant because they don't want to have to absorb the

00:28:01.140 costs and the human resources and the know-how and the management of those lands that right

00:28:06.280 now the federal government does for them.

00:28:08.080 So, sometimes it is a simple capacity issue or there's mistrust in the community that, you

00:28:12.800 know, the members won't vote for that in a referendum because they don't trust that

00:28:15.840 their chief and councillor, their administration would do a good job, a better job doing it.

00:28:20.720 So, different, and Melissa alluded to this, different communities are at different stages

00:28:25.520 of their evolution to self-determination.

00:28:28.220 And we need to respect that.

00:28:29.720 And maybe a smaller community is not ready to take on, a community of 200 or 300, to take

00:28:35.000 on all the responsibilities that a large municipality, even a province, would have.

00:28:38.840 Those are big, heavy things, you know, that only 200 people have to manage.

00:28:43.120 Education, health, you know, lands management, all these things, housing.

00:28:47.400 And then some other big ones.

00:28:49.480 I, for example, live on the Satina Nation outside of Calgary.

00:28:53.000 We have, they have a subdivision, a residential subdivision.

00:28:55.640 I pay my lease money to them every month and they're a very wealthy, very well-organized,

00:29:00.760 sophisticated nation and have been able to take over more of that authority and are comfortable

00:29:05.240 with that and are sophisticated and are doing that.

00:29:07.320 So, different communities are at different stages of this evolution.

00:29:11.000 It takes a lot of resources.

00:29:12.520 It takes a lot of capacity to manage your own lands.

00:29:15.000 And some aren't prepared to release the federal government of their fiduciary duties and assume

00:29:20.360 more sovereignty for themselves.

00:29:23.000 If that flexibility already exists to some extent, what are the structural barriers in place

00:29:28.280 that are preventing this vision that Melissa's put forward from being realized then?

00:29:32.440 But, sorry, I guess structural, are there structural barriers in the laws themselves as

00:29:37.000 they're written, I guess, is the better way of putting the question.

00:29:40.360 I mean, it definitely, and Melissa will be willing to jump on this too.

00:29:45.160 Of course, the Indian Act has restrictions.

00:29:47.160 That's what we talk about.

00:29:48.360 Not being able to run at the speed of business.

00:29:50.360 Not being able to make decisions.

00:29:51.720 Not being able to get loans.

00:29:52.840 Not being able to use it as a leverage to get capital.

00:29:57.720 Having the minister has to have the final say on so many of these things,

00:30:01.160 if it's under the Indian Act and on reserve lands.

00:30:03.720 So, there's definitely barriers there.

00:30:05.880 But even in the case where there have been land claims and large settlements,

00:30:09.400 like Nunavut and Nunavut, you know, in the north, where they aren't restricted by the Indian Act,

00:30:17.000 there are still other structural barriers, capacity barriers, cultural barriers.

00:30:21.800 Let me get your thoughts on that capacity aspect, Melissa.

00:30:26.920 Is there a way to overcome that or overcome that mistrust idea?

00:30:31.560 Which is, I don't think, specific to Indigenous communities.

00:30:34.040 I certainly understand mistrust in politicians.

00:30:36.520 But how do you overcome that aspect of it?

00:30:38.840 That's very difficult, especially in an Indigenous community, because once you mistrust someone or a leader,

00:30:46.120 that lingers for a very long time.

00:30:48.680 You know, even if they'd come back and apologize,

00:30:51.640 it's still etched in our minds that this person did this.

00:30:55.560 So, it's very hard to come back and say, you know, let's fix this.

00:30:59.480 So, oftentimes what happens, you know, if it happens with one of our leaders,

00:31:04.120 we just don't vote them back in.

00:31:05.480 Or if it happens, you know, with a provincial government or federal government,

00:31:09.720 we just say, you know, we're not dealing with that person anymore.

00:31:12.920 So, it's very hard to, once that mistrust is there, it's very hard to come back from that.

00:31:18.360 Let me ask about the Indian Act, because this is something we hear people calling for its repeal.

00:31:23.400 And I know that if you were to undertake repealing the Indian Act,

00:31:27.160 you would need to have a very solid and clear vision of what would replace it.

00:31:32.520 Is that viable or desirable in your view, Melissa, to get rid of the Indian Act and start something new? 0.98

00:31:40.040 I would definitely amend it.

00:31:42.120 You know, like, instead of trying to come up with something new,

00:31:45.640 let's amend the parts that are broken.

00:31:47.400 You know, there are a lot, there are pieces in there that need to be revised.

00:31:51.400 There's a lot of amendment changes that have gone in that haven't even been addressed.

00:31:55.880 So, let's start there.

00:31:57.160 You know, if they're not even looking at amendments as an option,

00:32:00.280 well, maybe that's where we start.

00:32:02.280 And that's, you know, politically how it looks in a province or even federally.

00:32:07.320 You appeal or you try to amend a bill that's gone in.

00:32:11.800 You know, and we need to address the Indian Act in the same manner.

00:32:15.640 We don't need to do away with it, you know, because there are parts of it that are working.

00:32:20.200 But what we need to do is bring it up to speed, because it's no longer

00:32:24.200 a paper from the 1800s that's working in today's society.

00:32:27.880 So, we do need to start looking at some of the changes that we can make in it.

00:32:33.160 If you were a politician who were trying to do the best thing possible

00:32:39.400 for the Indigenous communities of Canada that is politically viable,

00:32:43.080 that is economically viable, where would be the starting point beyond sovereignty, Heather?

00:32:48.840 Let me just, first I'm going to answer the Indian Act.

00:32:52.440 Lots of ministers have had ambitions or thought that they could come in and take away the Indian Act.

00:32:56.920 And it was the old joke, I know, in the Department of Indian Affairs,

00:32:59.400 that one minister, a conservative minister, came in wanting to change the Indian Act.

00:33:03.080 And his nickname was Chief Running With Scissors.

00:33:05.880 Because anyone that wanted to change the Indian Act was, you know, in for a wild ride.

00:33:10.520 And it never works.

00:33:11.560 And like I mentioned before, there are legislations that have,

00:33:15.000 that allow communities to opt out of parts of the Indian Act.

00:33:18.680 And a lot of these have been brought forth by communities themselves,

00:33:21.080 you know, on oil and gas management or elections or land management,

00:33:24.680 where they say, we hate these parts of the Indian Act, we need an option.

00:33:28.600 And the federal government has played ball and created, you know, legislation that they can opt out.

00:33:33.480 But going back to your other question, Andrew, where would you start?

00:33:38.680 And again, you have to respect that there's so many different communities and nations in contact.

00:33:43.720 And so I think allowing them to have as much self-determination as they want.

00:33:48.840 And I think C-92, you know, we often criticize the liberal government.

00:33:51.960 They do a lot of crazy things.

00:33:53.080 But C-92 really was good legislation.

00:33:55.160 That's on child welfare and allowing communities to take over.

00:33:59.160 They never gave up.

00:34:00.040 They never said, you can take our kids and you can do our family care.

00:34:04.360 They never said that.

00:34:05.640 And so this isn't giving it back, but getting out of the way of First Nations 1.00

00:34:09.800 to reassert their jurisdiction over this.

00:34:12.280 And again, it's on a community-community basis.

00:34:14.760 The community decides they create their own laws.

00:34:17.320 They create their own structure.

00:34:18.520 There's funding available and deciding when do they and how do they want to take back over

00:34:23.480 child welfare.

00:34:24.280 And I think almost every Canadian could agree that you wouldn't want China to be in charge 1.00

00:34:28.440 of our kids, you know, child welfare.

00:34:30.440 So why did a First Nation want Canada to be in charge of their child welfare?

00:34:33.720 And we have a terrible record on it.

00:34:35.240 So these kinds of opportunities, we're providing a framework, providing support, providing time

00:34:41.560 and letting communities decide how and when they want to take back those parts of their own governance.

00:34:47.000 When we talk about that self-determination and sovereignty, I want to be clear on what it is

00:34:51.960 that we're discussing here.

00:34:53.560 Are we talking about communities that levy their own taxes, are responsible for their own spending,

00:34:59.080 that are basically mini countries with the exception of passport and defense and foreign affairs

00:35:05.320 within Canada?

00:35:06.200 Are we talking about something that looks a little bit more like Quebec, where the federal government

00:35:10.600 is giving them money, but they have a lot of autonomy and a lot of their own determination in

00:35:15.720 how they spend that money and how they allocate it?

00:35:19.320 I think it should look a lot like Quebec.

00:35:21.320 You know, they're part of Canada.

00:35:22.840 They're part of this country.

00:35:24.440 But yet they are given the economy to make decisions, you know, particularly for their province.

00:35:30.200 And I think that's how it should work within First Nations communities.

00:35:33.160 Like, we don't want to be separate and apart from Canada.

00:35:36.680 You know, we want to work with Canada.

00:35:38.040 We want to be part of this economy.

00:35:39.640 So kind of segregating us how we are is not working.

00:35:44.760 What we need to do is we need to, with self-determination, you know,

00:35:49.160 work with Canada and be part of this country.

00:35:51.240 Yeah, I mean, I think First Nations, they can and they should charge taxes. 1.00

00:35:56.360 And maybe they don't charge it to their own people because it's, you know, a big issue.

00:35:59.400 But they often charge fees, they often charge levies.

00:36:02.600 So that potential exists.

00:36:04.520 I pay, you know, I would pay to the Satina Nation, for example. 1.00

00:36:08.520 So there is that option.

00:36:09.640 But it's the scale.

00:36:12.600 There is no economy of scale.

00:36:14.280 Even Nunavut, which is a public government,

00:36:17.240 but is the closest thing to a large Indigenous government, 40,000 people,

00:36:21.480 still is going to be always reliant on the federal government.

00:36:23.800 That's still too few people to run all the services in the way that people in Canada

00:36:28.120 expect modern services.

00:36:29.240 So for me, the more that Indigenous groups can operate in tribal councils

00:36:33.880 or regional councils or treaty areas to pool those services and have that economy of scale,

00:36:40.120 the better.

00:36:41.880 But, you know, it's their land.

00:36:45.720 We're all benefiting from it.

00:36:47.640 So I don't think there's, you know, anything wrong or unjust in, you know,

00:36:50.760 of having some transfers from the federal government and some support on the governance side,

00:36:56.040 where they want it and how they want it.

00:36:58.360 Melissa Embarkey, policy analyst and outreach coordinator for the McDonnell-Laurie Institute,

00:37:03.240 also a veteran of the oil and gas sector in Canada.

00:37:06.760 And Dr. Heather Exner-Perot, fellow at the McDonnell-Laurie Institute.

00:37:10.920 And many, many titles connected to any number of resource and northern projects,

00:37:15.640 including the Saskatchewan Indigenous Economic Development Network

00:37:18.840 and the Canadian Rural Revitalization Foundation.

00:37:21.960 Heather, Melissa, thank you both so much.

00:37:23.480 This was a very informative discussion.

00:37:25.640 I appreciate your time.

00:37:27.160 Thank you.

00:37:27.400 Thanks for having us.

00:37:29.640 You know, it's such a complex issue.

00:37:32.440 And I was really trying.

00:37:33.880 I didn't expect that we'd have solved all the problems of Canada after just 40 minutes.

00:37:38.520 But I realized that getting even just a few concrete politically viable solutions

00:37:45.160 that a politician could champion would be very difficult.

00:37:48.440 And I think the big takeaway from there is that we're not just talking about one Indigenous community

00:37:53.560 or even a community that has one particular voice.

00:37:57.080 You've got certainly national groups like the Assembly of First Nations.

00:38:00.920 But even then, they may not speak for the interests and needs of all of these different

00:38:05.240 communities that are impacted.

00:38:07.000 I think, like anything, the best advice is to let the government get out of the way.

00:38:12.120 And this is not something that I would say is unique to Indigenous Canadians entirely.

00:38:16.600 I would like to see the federal government get out of the way of provinces.

00:38:19.400 I'd like to see provinces get out of the way of the municipalities.

00:38:22.520 We're not talking about mass separation or secession or even segregation,

00:38:26.920 but a recognition that different people want different things.

00:38:31.240 Different groups of Canadians in different regional parts of the country want different things.

00:38:36.280 So no simple answers. But again, we don't do these segments for simple answers.

00:38:40.200 We do them to really delve into the scope of some of the challenges and

00:38:44.280 hopefully have a bit more of an honest discussion about them than we see in federal politics.

00:38:49.320 So with that, my thanks again to Heather and Melissa and to all of you for tuning in.

00:38:53.560 We'll be back Tuesday with more of Canada's most irreverent talk show here on True North.

00:38:58.680 This is The Andrew Lawton Show. Thank you, God bless, and good day.

00:39:01.640 Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:39:03.880 Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.

Juno News - November 27, 2021

Is self-government the answer to the Canada-Indigenous relationship？

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