00:01:46.260You introduced yourself to a lot of people who didn't know you.
00:01:49.100And it was fascinating when they fired you.
00:01:52.680And, you know, it was I'd say there's a bit of a purge going on in radio at the time.
00:01:57.360Danielle Smith, I know, in Alberta was having some issues around the same time frame, not connected to you or your case.
00:02:02.680But there were there were these changes and we've started to see a little bit more about this in court documents because you are suing Bell Media for your termination.
00:02:13.320And the one notable one that I really want to talk about here is this accusation that Bell has made to you that you, who, as I understand it, were the only black man on the station, were insufficiently diverse for them.
00:02:25.700That's exactly right. It's very confusing exactly what diversity means to a company like Bell, because they say they want people from different backgrounds, but they don't seem to want anyone to actually bring their perspective to their job.
00:02:40.520So they want to celebrate, oh, this person's from this community.
00:02:45.020But then when you want to talk about what's happening in the world, all of a sudden they'd like for everyone to sound the same, which doesn't sound like diversity and inclusion to me.
00:02:54.100And I think one of the key examples of this was around, you know, all the covid stuff.
00:02:59.000You know, I hosted my show last year when, of course, covid was the main thing on the news every single day.
00:03:07.960I come from a community where because of history and because of other reasons, a lot of people were hesitant to get the vaccine.
00:03:15.140And Bell, like, wanted me to talk about that if I was willing to deliver the message that they wanted.
00:03:20.740They wanted me to come on the radio and shame people and hate people and say, you know, mean things about people who wouldn't be vaccinated.
00:03:28.600And my point of view was like, look, I mean, part of diversity is recognizing people have different life experiences.
00:03:34.540And I'm not going to attack people who make a different decision, even if it's not the same decision I made.
00:03:39.320And that was where so much of our conflict came from.
00:03:42.680And you can see even in the court documents, which I encourage people to check out on my Twitter page.
00:03:47.300I posted a link to where you can read them yourself.
00:03:49.980They basically say, like, I didn't shill the Liberal Party's lines on covid-19.
00:03:56.020And that's one of the reasons they fired me, which is kind of a mind blowing thing to say out loud.
00:04:00.940They say on the record, like I was very surprised to read it, to be honest.
00:04:04.520Yeah, in a way, it was weird because I read your initial filing and you're making all these claims, which, of course, I should say, haven't been tested in court about why they fired you.
00:04:14.000And then in their defense, they basically reaffirm everything you accused them of doing and try to put their own spin on it, of course.
00:04:20.900And one of them, they say point blank in their defense filing here that you were not committed to their diversity and equity and inclusion policies and all of that.
00:04:32.220And some of the other things they included as your alleged transgressions, I found ridiculous.
00:04:37.440Like one of them was you had an interview with an MP, Kathy Wagenthal, who didn't tow the government's line on vaccination.
00:04:43.840And you say you were supposed to be more aggressive or assertive in shouting down whatever she was saying.
00:04:49.760And it's like Kathy Wagenthal, I've interviewed her before.
00:04:53.500She was offering the unorthodox position.
00:04:57.440She was challenging the position you could get anywhere else.
00:05:00.040So the idea that you then need to, you know, silence her or rebut her, I find ridiculous.
00:05:06.040And again, really a rejection of what talk radio used to be.
00:05:10.180Yeah, I mean, you know, MP Wagenthal is a duly elected member of our parliament.
00:05:16.380For her to be given an opportunity to share her perspective on an important issue seems like exactly what the media is supposed to do.
00:05:23.920We're supposed to bring forward perspectives that are influencing public policy, influencing the way politics and government work.
00:05:31.900And yet Bell seemed to want just one perspective to be allowed on their airwaves, which is just, I mean, as I said, I'm surprised they admitted it.
00:05:52.040And to your point also, Andrew, about, you know, me not sort of complying with diversity.
00:05:57.940Like, let's be specific about what they wanted.
00:06:00.400These guys put out last November, about a year ago today, they put out a plan that was about segregation, that was about putting together diversity groups that would have meetings based on all the black people get together, all the indigenous people get together, all the white people get together.
00:06:19.520That's literally the opposite of diversity.
00:06:21.900You're telling people in order to have important conversations about our workplace as employees of Bell, we cannot do that with people who look differently than us.
00:06:30.840We have to be separated from one another.
00:06:33.480And I'm against diversity by saying I don't want to be part of that.
00:06:38.540You know, these businesses want to get into the world of micromanaging people's identities.
00:06:44.660And then when someone, whether you're black, indigenous, a woman, part of the LGBT community, whatever it is, even if you're a white guy, they want to tell you how you're supposed to think about yourself and the political views you're supposed to have.
00:07:09.820And that's really at the crux of the lawsuit, which is, like, our business is allowed to treat people this way.
00:07:15.100I believe it's against the law, and I believe it's illegal.
00:07:17.920And, you know, that's exactly why I'm taking them to court.
00:07:21.380When you were hired, was there ever a sense that you had in your discussions with them, either formally or informally, of what they wanted you to be and what they wanted you to say, whether it was a particular position or a particular issue?
00:07:34.120Or did they just look at you and, you know, based on a couple of interviews you'd done and perhaps your book and things you'd written, just assume that they had you figured out and they knew where you were going to go once you were on air?
00:07:45.680Yeah, I mean, I think there were a lot of people there who I would say have a very simplistic sense of how to work with people who come from a different background or perspective than them.
00:07:55.340And so some of those people, like there's one particular manager named in the lawsuit, and Bell names her in their statement of defense, Hillary White, ironically named, who had a very big problem with me and was constantly trying to, in my view, intimidate me and try to, like, force certain perspectives on me.
00:08:15.420And when I tried to speak up for myself, and you can see the dysfunctional workplace at Bell in other examples, like with Lisa Laflamme, for example, Danielle Graham is another person who's got a lawsuit against Bell over some of these issues.
00:08:29.200You know, they try to, you know, they try to, you know, punish you into submission into compliance. And I don't think that's actually what a healthy workplace is supposed to be like. So it was very difficult. There was a manager there who did, I think, try to have a genuine, honest understanding of diversity.
00:08:45.920His name was Mike Bendixon. And he was fired a couple months before I was, I don't know exactly why. But I can tell you that when they let him go, you know, it just the one manager who seemed to have a healthy view on these issues was gone. And all of a sudden, the place just started to fall apart. And that's, you know, and then they blame the employees for that. And it's like, well, maybe management should take some responsibility for some of this dysfunction.
00:09:11.260Now, it's funny, because in Bell's response, they talk about the diversity issues and the fact that you misgendered Demi Lovato or something. And they go on with some of these other things we've discussed. And then they say, oh, yeah, and his ratings were bad. Was that ever something that was brought to you?
00:09:27.640No, in fact, you know, as I mentioned, I only had one ratings period that I was able to do the show for before I was fired and suspended and all these other things went on. So that one ratings period, they gave me a bonus for because of the performance of the show.
00:09:47.560And I actually have an email from my boss saying congratulations. So the ratings thing is very weird. I mean, the reality is, as I'm sure you would imagine, you know, ratings for all radio went down during COVID because people weren't commuting to work in their cars as much.
00:10:02.860So I think what Bell's trying to do is act like that was sort of my fault as a way to justify the firing. But here's what I would say to you, Andrew, if there was a business reason to let me go, why are they bringing up all these other things?
00:10:14.880Like if it was just about business, why couldn't they just say his ratings are bad? We had to let him go. Most people would accept that. And if that were the honest reason that I was fired, I, you know, why were we having these arguments?
00:10:26.120Like they mentioned all these other things about diversity and Justin Trudeau and Kathy Wagenthal because it wasn't about ratings and that they felt the need to address all these other issues because their case based on ratings is so weak.
00:10:39.520And you'll even notice, and again, I encourage anyone, you can read Bell's statement of defense in their own words, go on my Twitter page and you'll, and I post it there and you'll read it and see, they actually present no evidence to back up their claim about ratings at all.
00:10:54.880Yeah, it's just like a line, basically, that they just sort of just throw out there and see if it's there.
00:10:58.760Yeah, there's no quotation. There are no numbers. There's no actual information given. Where do they have information?
00:11:03.760Well, they've got quotes when it comes to me not defending Justin Trudeau. They've got quotes when it comes to me not taking their position on Demi Lovato and her journey in self-identification.
00:11:16.080They've got examples for that, but no examples to ratings, right?
00:11:19.160So it's just, it's a very bizarre approach they've taken. And it seems to me, in my personal view, they've underestimated how much Canadians expect media to have some sort of credibility, some objectivity, some effort to be middle of the road.
00:11:34.860I think a lot of Canadians expect that. I don't think that Bell is offering them that in their media coverage.
00:11:40.000Radio is a cartoonishly precarious industry. I think, like, the line when I started out is that you hadn't made it in radio until you had been fired.
00:11:48.400Like, some of those old-time radio guys would, you know, get fired on Monday morning and they'd be somewhere else Tuesday afternoon.
00:11:54.980And I think stations have the right to put whatever they want on air. And I know you're a free market guy, so you'd agree with that as well.
00:12:01.180Let me just ask then, what is the core of your issue? Is it, you know, the fact that they, you know, canceled you for these reasons, or is it something more fundamental?
00:12:12.880Yeah, I mean, the core of the issue is they created certain expectations of me as an employee based on my race, based on my, the community I come from, based on, you know, the color of my skin or, you know, my name.
00:12:27.920All these things, they created unique expectations on me and then punished me when I didn't meet those expectations.
00:12:35.040That is, I think, by most definitions, racism. It is racist to say, because of what you look like, you have to do your job a certain way.
00:12:45.320And when you don't stay within the boundaries we give you, we punish you for being the wrong type of black person.
00:12:50.980That is what the crux of the issue is for me.
00:12:53.320As I said before, I do believe that in businesses, I do believe in capitalism, a lot of the good things about our country are the results of us embracing free market economics.
00:13:05.420At the same time, I'm also a believer in people being treated as individuals.
00:13:10.540I'm a believer in equality before the law.
00:13:14.100And you cannot, whether you're on the left in this case or you're on the right, whatever the example would be, decide you're going to treat people differently based on what they look like.
00:13:23.200And that is fundamentally wrong, in my opinion.
00:13:26.340And that's why I decided to bring this case forward.
00:13:28.440I think that we've gotten to this point where we believe liberals and people on the left, like the management at Bell Media, are allowed to get away with racism.
00:13:38.260And then they accuse everyone else on the other side of being the racist.
00:13:51.400And we're going to deal with that through the court system.
00:13:53.360You know, this may shock people in this colorblind world, but I'm not black, so I don't have the, you know, the experience of being a member of that community.
00:14:02.100But, and again, I don't even like talking about people in terms of communities because people are individuals.
00:14:07.420And that seems to be the issue they had with you, that you were an individual and that, you know, your community certainly colors and shapes your perspective, but it doesn't confine you to one particular perspective.
00:14:20.540And I feel that it's just so laughable that this idea of diversity, this idea of having more voices represented from a variety of backgrounds, which is important, only extends when those voices say certain things.
00:14:54.120But as you said, Andrew, I'm a human being.
00:14:56.760So I know that when I take that responsibility on, I have to do that with integrity.
00:15:01.860And part of doing that with integrity is showing respect to people in my community who have a different point of view.
00:15:07.660And then when I go on the radio and show respect to people who make a different decision, then I'm being punished for it.
00:15:13.940Well, you can't control a person that way.
00:15:16.780That is fundamentally wrong to say we're going to use your race when it's convenient to us.
00:15:22.360But then when you want to show respect to people with the same identity as you, we're going to punish you for it.
00:15:27.740That is a kind of manipulation that is only possible when you have a business like Bell who thinks that they are so above any kind of moral expectation, any moral standard that they can get away with anything they want.
00:15:41.400And the reality is, no matter how big and rich you are in this country, no matter how big of a business you are, no matter how much power you have as a Bell executive, you're still beholden to the law.
00:15:52.080And that's exactly why a lawsuit is necessary here.
00:15:54.940They can't get away with treating people this way.
00:15:57.620You are taking on the machine and I couldn't be happier for you, Jamil Javani.
00:16:02.380So thank you for that and best of luck.
00:16:04.340And just on a purely unrelated topic here, I know you've written in the past about your friendship with J.D. Vance.
00:16:10.080You went to law school with him at Yale.
00:16:12.040Any thoughts on his big victory last night in Ohio?
00:16:16.620Like, I know a lot of the coverage has sort of pointed to the fact that Republicans did not have the quote-unquote red wave as many expected.
00:16:24.880A lot of these Senate races and congressional races were more competitive than people thought.
00:16:29.000But I knew J.D.'s wasn't going to be that competitive because he's been working his butt off.
00:16:33.360He's been connecting with people in Ohio.