Juno News - November 12, 2022


Jamil Jivani sues allegedly “racist” Bell Media (ft. Jamil Jivani)

Topics
ratings racism in media coverage
Mentioned
Andrew Lawton Show Kathy Wagenthal Jamil Giovanni Justin Trudeau Danielle Graham Danielle Smith Hillary White Lisa Laflamme Mike Bundrant Demi Lovato Vance Bell
Ottawa spends while Canadians pay (ft. Franco Terrazzano) Are our rights and freedoms under threat？

Episode Stats


Length

17 minutes

Words per minute

191.51

Word count

3,416

Sentence count

208

Harmful content

Misogyny

2

sentences flagged

Toxicity

4

sentences flagged

Hate speech

2

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Talk radio used to be a bastion of irreverent, controversial opinions. Now, it s become increasingly woke. And it has gotten increasingly woke in Canada. And Jameel Javani, who hosted a fantastic show on Bell Media's News Talk 1010 in Toronto, is suing for his termination.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.000 I want to talk about one of my favorite topics, which is talk radio.
00:00:12.100 I've been a longtime talk radio fan.
00:00:14.340 I really cut my teeth in the media industry doing a daily talk radio show.
00:00:18.960 And I know a lot of you who listen to this show used to listen to me on the radio,
00:00:22.440 whether it was in London and Toronto and in Calgary.
00:00:25.020 And I thank you very much for that.
00:00:26.640 But the talk radio of today is very different than the talk radio of yesterday and two days ago and several years ago.
00:00:36.580 And I say that with a fair bit of sadness because talk radio used to be like the bastion of unequivocally irreverent speech,
00:00:46.120 of being able to challenge conventional orthodoxy, being able to have debates, air controversial opinions,
00:00:51.800 not for the sake of controversy, but because they are discussions that need to be had.
00:00:55.960 And it has gotten increasingly woke in Canada.
00:00:59.320 And I would say there are few better able to attest to that than Jameel Javani,
00:01:04.300 who hosted a fantastic show on Bell Media's News Talk 1010 in Toronto,
00:01:09.580 although his management seemed to want it to be a lot less fantastic.
00:01:14.740 And I want to bring in Jameel to talk about this.
00:01:17.660 Now the president of the Canada Strong and Free Network.
00:01:20.740 Jameel, good to talk to you, sir.
00:01:21.900 Thanks for coming on today.
00:01:23.660 Yeah, thanks for having me, Andrew.
00:01:24.860 I certainly share your passion for what talk radio used to be.
00:01:29.340 And I mean, it's great we have platforms like yours where we can still have some of these important conversations.
00:01:34.500 Well, we'll blow the minds of our former employers, both of whom fired each of us.
00:01:39.600 But let's talk about this because you hosted a great show on News Talk 1010.
00:01:44.780 You talked about a lot of things.
00:01:46.260 You introduced yourself to a lot of people who didn't know you.
00:01:49.100 And it was fascinating when they fired you.
00:01:52.680 And, you know, it was I'd say there's a bit of a purge going on in radio at the time.
00:01:57.360 Danielle Smith, I know, in Alberta was having some issues around the same time frame, not connected to you or your case.
00:02:02.680 But there were there were these changes and we've started to see a little bit more about this in court documents because you are suing Bell Media for your termination.
00:02:13.320 And the one notable one that I really want to talk about here is this accusation that Bell has made to you that you, who, as I understand it, were the only black man on the station, were insufficiently diverse for them.
00:02:25.700 That's exactly right. It's very confusing exactly what diversity means to a company like Bell, because they say they want people from different backgrounds, but they don't seem to want anyone to actually bring their perspective to their job.
00:02:40.520 So they want to celebrate, oh, this person's from this community.
00:02:43.340 This person has this identity.
00:02:45.020 But then when you want to talk about what's happening in the world, all of a sudden they'd like for everyone to sound the same, which doesn't sound like diversity and inclusion to me.
00:02:54.100 And I think one of the key examples of this was around, you know, all the covid stuff.
00:02:59.000 You know, I hosted my show last year when, of course, covid was the main thing on the news every single day.
00:03:05.600 And, you know, I'm a black man.
00:03:07.960 I come from a community where because of history and because of other reasons, a lot of people were hesitant to get the vaccine.
00:03:15.140 And Bell, like, wanted me to talk about that if I was willing to deliver the message that they wanted.
00:03:20.740 They wanted me to come on the radio and shame people and hate people and say, you know, mean things about people who wouldn't be vaccinated.
00:03:28.600 And my point of view was like, look, I mean, part of diversity is recognizing people have different life experiences.
00:03:34.540 And I'm not going to attack people who make a different decision, even if it's not the same decision I made.
00:03:39.320 And that was where so much of our conflict came from.
00:03:42.680 And you can see even in the court documents, which I encourage people to check out on my Twitter page.
00:03:47.300 I posted a link to where you can read them yourself.
00:03:49.980 They basically say, like, I didn't shill the Liberal Party's lines on covid-19.
00:03:56.020 And that's one of the reasons they fired me, which is kind of a mind blowing thing to say out loud.
00:04:00.940 They say on the record, like I was very surprised to read it, to be honest.
00:04:04.520 Yeah, in a way, it was weird because I read your initial filing and you're making all these claims, which, of course, I should say, haven't been tested in court about why they fired you.
00:04:14.000 And then in their defense, they basically reaffirm everything you accused them of doing and try to put their own spin on it, of course.
00:04:20.900 And one of them, they say point blank in their defense filing here that you were not committed to their diversity and equity and inclusion policies and all of that.
00:04:32.220 And some of the other things they included as your alleged transgressions, I found ridiculous.
00:04:37.440 Like one of them was you had an interview with an MP, Kathy Wagenthal, who didn't tow the government's line on vaccination.
00:04:43.840 And you say you were supposed to be more aggressive or assertive in shouting down whatever she was saying.
00:04:49.760 And it's like Kathy Wagenthal, I've interviewed her before.
00:04:53.500 She was offering the unorthodox position.
00:04:57.440 She was challenging the position you could get anywhere else. 1.00
00:05:00.040 So the idea that you then need to, you know, silence her or rebut her, I find ridiculous.
00:05:06.040 And again, really a rejection of what talk radio used to be.
00:05:10.180 Yeah, I mean, you know, MP Wagenthal is a duly elected member of our parliament.
00:05:16.380 For her to be given an opportunity to share her perspective on an important issue seems like exactly what the media is supposed to do.
00:05:23.920 We're supposed to bring forward perspectives that are influencing public policy, influencing the way politics and government work.
00:05:31.900 And yet Bell seemed to want just one perspective to be allowed on their airwaves, which is just, I mean, as I said, I'm surprised they admitted it.
00:05:39.700 I mean, they behaved that way.
00:05:40.920 They tried to punish me.
00:05:42.000 They certainly conducted themselves like a group of people with a bias toward the Liberal Party.
00:05:47.460 But for them to actually come out and admit it is a whole other story.
00:05:50.520 I mean, I was very surprised.
00:05:52.040 And to your point also, Andrew, about, you know, me not sort of complying with diversity.
00:05:57.940 Like, let's be specific about what they wanted.
00:06:00.400 These guys put out last November, about a year ago today, they put out a plan that was about segregation, that was about putting together diversity groups that would have meetings based on all the black people get together, all the indigenous people get together, all the white people get together.
00:06:17.500 That's not diversity.
00:06:18.880 That's segregation. 0.95
00:06:19.520 That's literally the opposite of diversity.
00:06:21.900 You're telling people in order to have important conversations about our workplace as employees of Bell, we cannot do that with people who look differently than us. 1.00
00:06:30.840 We have to be separated from one another.
00:06:33.480 And I'm against diversity by saying I don't want to be part of that.
00:06:37.040 Like, this is nuts.
00:06:38.540 You know, these businesses want to get into the world of micromanaging people's identities.
00:06:44.660 And then when someone, whether you're black, indigenous, a woman, part of the LGBT community, whatever it is, even if you're a white guy, they want to tell you how you're supposed to think about yourself and the political views you're supposed to have.
00:06:57.940 That's not business.
00:06:59.220 That's creepy, weird approach to diversity.
00:07:02.340 And the idea that I was a problematic employee because I thought as an individual, I should be treated with respect.
00:07:09.080 That's nuts.
00:07:09.820 And that's really at the crux of the lawsuit, which is, like, our business is allowed to treat people this way.
00:07:15.100 I believe it's against the law, and I believe it's illegal.
00:07:17.920 And, you know, that's exactly why I'm taking them to court.
00:07:21.380 When you were hired, was there ever a sense that you had in your discussions with them, either formally or informally, of what they wanted you to be and what they wanted you to say, whether it was a particular position or a particular issue?
00:07:34.120 Or did they just look at you and, you know, based on a couple of interviews you'd done and perhaps your book and things you'd written, just assume that they had you figured out and they knew where you were going to go once you were on air?
00:07:45.680 Yeah, I mean, I think there were a lot of people there who I would say have a very simplistic sense of how to work with people who come from a different background or perspective than them.
00:07:55.340 And so some of those people, like there's one particular manager named in the lawsuit, and Bell names her in their statement of defense, Hillary White, ironically named, who had a very big problem with me and was constantly trying to, in my view, intimidate me and try to, like, force certain perspectives on me.
00:08:15.420 And when I tried to speak up for myself, and you can see the dysfunctional workplace at Bell in other examples, like with Lisa Laflamme, for example, Danielle Graham is another person who's got a lawsuit against Bell over some of these issues.
00:08:29.200 You know, they try to, you know, they try to, you know, punish you into submission into compliance. And I don't think that's actually what a healthy workplace is supposed to be like. So it was very difficult. There was a manager there who did, I think, try to have a genuine, honest understanding of diversity.
00:08:45.920 His name was Mike Bendixon. And he was fired a couple months before I was, I don't know exactly why. But I can tell you that when they let him go, you know, it just the one manager who seemed to have a healthy view on these issues was gone. And all of a sudden, the place just started to fall apart. And that's, you know, and then they blame the employees for that. And it's like, well, maybe management should take some responsibility for some of this dysfunction.
00:09:11.260 Now, it's funny, because in Bell's response, they talk about the diversity issues and the fact that you misgendered Demi Lovato or something. And they go on with some of these other things we've discussed. And then they say, oh, yeah, and his ratings were bad. Was that ever something that was brought to you?
00:09:27.640 No, in fact, you know, as I mentioned, I only had one ratings period that I was able to do the show for before I was fired and suspended and all these other things went on. So that one ratings period, they gave me a bonus for because of the performance of the show.
00:09:47.560 And I actually have an email from my boss saying congratulations. So the ratings thing is very weird. I mean, the reality is, as I'm sure you would imagine, you know, ratings for all radio went down during COVID because people weren't commuting to work in their cars as much.
00:10:02.860 So I think what Bell's trying to do is act like that was sort of my fault as a way to justify the firing. But here's what I would say to you, Andrew, if there was a business reason to let me go, why are they bringing up all these other things?
00:10:14.880 Like if it was just about business, why couldn't they just say his ratings are bad? We had to let him go. Most people would accept that. And if that were the honest reason that I was fired, I, you know, why were we having these arguments?
00:10:26.120 Like they mentioned all these other things about diversity and Justin Trudeau and Kathy Wagenthal because it wasn't about ratings and that they felt the need to address all these other issues because their case based on ratings is so weak.
00:10:39.520 And you'll even notice, and again, I encourage anyone, you can read Bell's statement of defense in their own words, go on my Twitter page and you'll, and I post it there and you'll read it and see, they actually present no evidence to back up their claim about ratings at all.
00:10:52.880 It's literally, they just say it.
00:10:54.880 Yeah, it's just like a line, basically, that they just sort of just throw out there and see if it's there.
00:10:58.760 Yeah, there's no quotation. There are no numbers. There's no actual information given. Where do they have information?
00:11:03.760 Well, they've got quotes when it comes to me not defending Justin Trudeau. They've got quotes when it comes to me not taking their position on Demi Lovato and her journey in self-identification.
00:11:16.080 They've got examples for that, but no examples to ratings, right?
00:11:19.160 So it's just, it's a very bizarre approach they've taken. And it seems to me, in my personal view, they've underestimated how much Canadians expect media to have some sort of credibility, some objectivity, some effort to be middle of the road.
00:11:34.860 I think a lot of Canadians expect that. I don't think that Bell is offering them that in their media coverage.
00:11:40.000 Radio is a cartoonishly precarious industry. I think, like, the line when I started out is that you hadn't made it in radio until you had been fired.
00:11:48.400 Like, some of those old-time radio guys would, you know, get fired on Monday morning and they'd be somewhere else Tuesday afternoon.
00:11:54.980 And I think stations have the right to put whatever they want on air. And I know you're a free market guy, so you'd agree with that as well.
00:12:01.180 Let me just ask then, what is the core of your issue? Is it, you know, the fact that they, you know, canceled you for these reasons, or is it something more fundamental?
00:12:12.880 Yeah, I mean, the core of the issue is they created certain expectations of me as an employee based on my race, based on my, the community I come from, based on, you know, the color of my skin or, you know, my name.
00:12:27.920 All these things, they created unique expectations on me and then punished me when I didn't meet those expectations.
00:12:35.040 That is, I think, by most definitions, racism. It is racist to say, because of what you look like, you have to do your job a certain way.
00:12:45.320 And when you don't stay within the boundaries we give you, we punish you for being the wrong type of black person. 1.00
00:12:50.980 That is what the crux of the issue is for me. 0.76
00:12:53.320 As I said before, I do believe that in businesses, I do believe in capitalism, a lot of the good things about our country are the results of us embracing free market economics.
00:13:05.420 At the same time, I'm also a believer in people being treated as individuals.
00:13:10.540 I'm a believer in equality before the law.
00:13:14.100 And you cannot, whether you're on the left in this case or you're on the right, whatever the example would be, decide you're going to treat people differently based on what they look like.
00:13:23.200 And that is fundamentally wrong, in my opinion.
00:13:26.340 And that's why I decided to bring this case forward.
00:13:28.440 I think that we've gotten to this point where we believe liberals and people on the left, like the management at Bell Media, are allowed to get away with racism.
00:13:38.260 And then they accuse everyone else on the other side of being the racist.
00:13:41.660 And I'm saying, no, no, no. 0.50
00:13:43.100 You guys are the racists.
00:13:44.680 You're treating me differently because of what I look like, because of who my father is, because of where my father comes from.
00:13:50.220 And that's not right.
00:13:51.400 And we're going to deal with that through the court system.
00:13:53.360 You know, this may shock people in this colorblind world, but I'm not black, so I don't have the, you know, the experience of being a member of that community.
00:14:02.100 But, and again, I don't even like talking about people in terms of communities because people are individuals.
00:14:07.420 And that seems to be the issue they had with you, that you were an individual and that, you know, your community certainly colors and shapes your perspective, but it doesn't confine you to one particular perspective.
00:14:20.540 And I feel that it's just so laughable that this idea of diversity, this idea of having more voices represented from a variety of backgrounds, which is important, only extends when those voices say certain things.
00:14:35.440 Yeah, and that's exactly the problem.
00:14:36.900 I mean, I have email documentation of Bell encouraging me to talk about vaccine issues in the black community.
00:14:45.480 They brought me on CTV News to talk about the issue.
00:14:48.480 But they wanted you to do a PSA, basically.
00:14:51.040 They wanted you to promote vaccination to people in the black community.
00:14:53.800 Exactly.
00:14:54.120 But as you said, Andrew, I'm a human being.
00:14:56.760 So I know that when I take that responsibility on, I have to do that with integrity.
00:15:01.860 And part of doing that with integrity is showing respect to people in my community who have a different point of view.
00:15:07.660 And then when I go on the radio and show respect to people who make a different decision, then I'm being punished for it.
00:15:13.940 Well, you can't control a person that way.
00:15:16.780 That is fundamentally wrong to say we're going to use your race when it's convenient to us.
00:15:22.360 But then when you want to show respect to people with the same identity as you, we're going to punish you for it.
00:15:27.740 That is a kind of manipulation that is only possible when you have a business like Bell who thinks that they are so above any kind of moral expectation, any moral standard that they can get away with anything they want.
00:15:41.400 And the reality is, no matter how big and rich you are in this country, no matter how big of a business you are, no matter how much power you have as a Bell executive, you're still beholden to the law.
00:15:52.080 And that's exactly why a lawsuit is necessary here.
00:15:54.940 They can't get away with treating people this way.
00:15:57.620 You are taking on the machine and I couldn't be happier for you, Jamil Javani.
00:16:02.380 So thank you for that and best of luck.
00:16:04.340 And just on a purely unrelated topic here, I know you've written in the past about your friendship with J.D. Vance.
00:16:10.080 You went to law school with him at Yale.
00:16:12.040 Any thoughts on his big victory last night in Ohio?
00:16:15.240 You know, I'm just happy for him.
00:16:16.620 Like, I know a lot of the coverage has sort of pointed to the fact that Republicans did not have the quote-unquote red wave as many expected.
00:16:24.880 A lot of these Senate races and congressional races were more competitive than people thought.
00:16:29.000 But I knew J.D.'s wasn't going to be that competitive because he's been working his butt off.
00:16:33.360 He's been connecting with people in Ohio.
00:16:35.280 He's from there.
00:16:36.820 He's got a story that you can read about in his book, Hillbilly Elegy.
00:16:40.180 You can watch the movie on Netflix.
00:16:42.220 People know where he comes from and he's lived through the issues that a lot of people in Ohio want solutions to.
00:16:49.000 So I'm happy for him.
00:16:50.080 I think he's going to be fantastic as a senator.
00:16:52.540 You know, I think of him as my big brother.
00:16:54.040 Like, I love the guy.
00:16:55.200 And so nothing but positive vibes for me.
00:16:57.360 I mean, I can't wait to see what he does when he's, you know, actually in the Senate being able to use his voice for good.
00:17:04.240 Well, perhaps you'll be able to get Senator Vance at one of the Canada Strong and Free conferences coming up.
00:17:09.040 I hope so.
00:17:10.540 All right.
00:17:11.240 Pull any clout you can.
00:17:13.040 Jamil, always a pleasure.
00:17:14.180 Thanks very much for coming on.
00:17:15.240 Thank you, Andrew.
00:17:16.020 Take care.
00:17:16.660 Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:17:18.980 Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.
00:17:27.360 Thank you.
00:17:49.360 Thank you.