Juno News - Journalists are calling the cops on Maxime Bernier for tweeting

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:06.660 This is The Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:00:12.620 Coming up, journalists sick the police on Maxime Bernier.

00:00:16.540 Jason Kenney supports Aaron O'Toole hanging around as Conservative leader.

00:00:20.420 And a look at rising public sector pay.

00:00:24.180 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.

00:00:30.000 Hello and welcome to another edition of Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.

00:00:34.960 Thursday, September 30th.

00:00:36.680 I know September just flew by in the year 2021.

00:00:40.900 Elections will do that.

00:00:41.880 They'll make time pass and then before you know it, you're in another election.

00:00:45.760 And then you're just in an endless cycle of time passing.

00:00:48.580 I once heard from someone that adulthood is just a string of saying,

00:00:52.980 well, things will slow down next week over and over until you die.

00:00:57.080 And on that cheery note, hello, welcome.

00:00:58.960 Thanks for tuning in.

00:01:01.280 I will give a bit of a shameless plug.

00:01:04.320 Right now, I am pre-recording this, of course, because I am going to be this weekend in Calgary, Alberta,

00:01:10.840 for the Virtual Canada Strong and Free Network Conference.

00:01:15.180 And I know it's weird to be in Calgary for a virtual conference.

00:01:18.100 This was, of course, going to be a big in-person conference in Red Deer.

00:01:21.340 And then, as you know, because I railed against it on this show a little while ago,

00:01:25.920 the Alberta government put in a range of restrictions that made having this in-person conference in the province

00:01:31.380 that was hashtag open for summer impossible.

00:01:34.640 So we're doing it.

00:01:35.860 But it's going to be in a studio.

00:01:37.500 So it's going to be great quality.

00:01:39.200 And there will be lots to talk about.

00:01:41.120 I'm going to be on a panel with Danielle Smith and Bruce Party and Jonathan Kaye

00:01:45.840 about the 1984 totalitarian and Orwellian moves that governments are making across the country.

00:01:52.960 And, in fact, across the world, we'll also be talking about free speech and Bill C-36 and C-10.

00:01:58.400 That's going to be on Saturday.

00:02:00.100 And if you want to register to watch that live, you can go to canadastrongandfree.network.

00:02:05.420 I hope you do.

00:02:06.300 It's going to be an absolute blast.

00:02:07.920 And lots of other great speakers as well, notably Dennis Prager.

00:02:11.020 So not often I get to be on the same lineup as Dennis Prager.

00:02:14.520 Now, as you can see in that picture, the picture of me is a little bit smaller than his.

00:02:19.080 But still, I'm there.

00:02:20.120 I'm in the ballpark.

00:02:21.180 I'm in the wheelhouse.

00:02:21.840 So hopefully I will be able to hear lots of feedback from you on how that goes.

00:02:26.300 Only good feedback, though.

00:02:27.400 I get enough of the nasty stuff.

00:02:28.820 I want to talk about Alberta a little bit later on in the show.

00:02:32.380 But I do want to start off by talking about the Canadian Association of Journalists going to war against Maxime Bernier.

00:02:39.900 Now, there's that old saying in news that when a dog bites a man, it's not news.

00:02:46.320 But when a man bites a dog, that's news.

00:02:48.420 And journalists attacking PPC is, I think, the epitome of dog bites man.

00:02:53.440 You'd say, well, what else is new?

00:02:55.140 But this is a particularly interesting attack because the CAJ is calling on the RCMP, the National Police Agency in Canada, to investigate Maxime Bernier.

00:03:06.420 So this independent, nonpartisan Association of Journalists wants police to investigate the leader of a political party that they completely ignored and, in a lot of cases, misrepresented in their coverage for the last six, seven weeks.

00:03:22.680 The backstory of this goes back about a week.

00:03:26.180 Maxime Bernier had fielded a number of media requests from reporters that were all, he thought, done in kind of a very bad faith way.

00:03:34.280 They were predicated on this idea that the PPC is rooted in racism or appeals to racists and white supremacists.

00:03:42.000 I'm going to read them because the honesty here is very important.

00:03:45.480 One of the requests from a CTV reporter says, I'm writing a story on the PPC in light of its rising popularity, yada, yada, yada, attracts and is endorsed by far-right groups, including neo-Nazis and white nationalists.

00:04:00.940 And while it may attract a broad spectrum of people that don't necessarily hold these extremist views, the fact is there are people affiliated with the PPC with known ties to either neo-Nazi or white nationalist groups.

00:04:13.020 How do you respond to this?

00:04:14.320 Another request that came from Global News says, I'm working on a story about black indigenous people of color voters.

00:04:21.260 That's what BIPOC means and their feelings.

00:04:23.580 I've spoken with a number of people and they're concerned about what your party stands for.

00:04:27.720 And they've expressed discomfort upon seeing your signs.

00:04:32.440 They fear that the PPC is pushing far-right extremism and allowing people who are xenophobic in the party and to run as candidates.

00:04:41.060 And then there was a request from the Hill Times that says,

00:04:43.980 I'm working on a story about violence and incidents of hate on the campaign trail and says this guy from the Canadian Anti-Hate Network says there are PPC supporters

00:04:52.860 that are all in the same group and that's the exposure to racist and far-right propaganda that led to violence.

00:04:59.660 And again, he's just writing a story about what this one guy who's an activist says and putting it to Maxime Bernier to respond to.

00:05:07.980 So Bernier tweeted out all three of these and says, these are from far-left activists masquerading as journalists.

00:05:16.540 And then he went one step further and in another tweet shared their email addresses and said,

00:05:23.980 you know what, if they're going to play dirty, we're going to play dirty too.

00:05:27.060 Why don't you email them and let them know what you think?

00:05:30.040 And predictably, we saw from a lot of these reporters, they were getting a bunch of nasty messages from people

00:05:34.900 because Maxime Bernier sicked his supporters on these reporters.

00:05:37.920 Now, this is something that there's a lot to delve into here and I want to be very clear, I do not support what he's done.

00:05:46.480 Yes, it's public, their public email addresses, sure.

00:05:50.160 I don't support taking a mob approach to social media.

00:05:54.440 There's something about rising above, you can call them out, but the idea of getting people to email them serves no purpose whatsoever.

00:06:01.360 So, with that being said, it's his right to talk about what they're doing.

00:06:06.380 It's his right to talk about, and I'd say it's encouraged to talk about what these reporters are doing

00:06:11.000 and show people the media requests because I'm a journalist.

00:06:14.360 I have sent media requests.

00:06:15.960 I know when I read those exactly what's happening.

00:06:19.040 They've already written the stories.

00:06:22.060 They've already written the stories and they're just checking the box to say,

00:06:25.820 I've asked for comment or they're going to weave whatever Maxime Bernier tells them into an existing narrative.

00:06:32.340 So, that Hilltime story is about, oh, the party's racist.

00:06:35.720 So, what does Maxime Bernier say to that?

00:06:37.980 The global story was about, okay, the party makes indigenous people and black people and other people of color nervous.

00:06:44.020 What does Bernier say to that? 0.94

00:06:45.500 And the first one was that this party is a magnet for white supremacists.

00:06:48.540 What does Bernier say about that?

00:06:50.420 The stories were already written.

00:06:52.580 So, it doesn't matter what Bernier or some PPC spokesperson say.

00:06:57.900 They're just fitting into an existing narrative.

00:07:00.140 So, I get the frustration and I get the PPC saying, we're not going to play ball with that.

00:07:04.520 And I even get them saying, this is what we're up against.

00:07:07.760 I just draw the line before sharing the email addresses because then all of a sudden, you have to own what your supporters email these reporters.

00:07:16.860 And yes, their public email addresses, someone who's motivated enough could look up all of those reporters and send them an email.

00:07:22.900 Now, that is something they could do.

00:07:25.580 But by directing people to tell them what you think and play dirty, you're stooping to their level.

00:07:32.180 And he says that's what he's doing.

00:07:33.420 He said, they're going to play dirty.

00:07:34.400 We're going to play dirty.

00:07:35.400 I'm more of a rise above kind of guy.

00:07:37.120 However, that does not mean that this is a criminal harassment, which is what the Canadian Association of Journalists now says it is.

00:07:47.360 They're arguing in this press release they sent out yesterday that law enforcement has to address targeted harassment of reporters.

00:07:55.000 They say that this tweet from Bernier, which resulted in Twitter suspending his account for 12 hours, presumably under the doxing policy or anti-doxing policy,

00:08:06.220 that this is something that desperately needs to be investigated.

00:08:10.620 And they say efforts to intimidate journalists from asking tough, serious questions is a tactic ripped directly from the pages of an authoritarian playbook.

00:08:19.840 The messages being directed towards reporters and editors are absolutely vile, deplorable, and completely acceptable.

00:08:25.520 We strongly stand by our members during these distressing times.

00:08:29.320 And they go on to say that there are sections of the criminal code that prohibit the willful promotion of hatred.

00:08:35.720 And they're saying that now being a journalist is a protected ground against hate speech in the criminal code, which, by the way, it's not.

00:08:43.920 But I digress.

00:08:45.180 That's the argument they're making here.

00:08:48.180 Now, at one point, and I'm going to delve into this in a future show, they go on to link this to C36 and talk about the importance of regulating online harms,

00:08:58.600 which is what restoring Section 13 of the Canadian Human Rights Act would do.

00:09:02.060 Again, journalism, not a protected human rights group.

00:09:05.760 As much as they may want to think they're special, they're not that special.

00:09:09.180 Now, I've had favorable interactions with the Canadian Association of Journalists.

00:09:14.120 In 2019, when the Leaders Debates Commission banned True North, the CAJ actually issued a statement defending us.

00:09:21.040 And they didn't like how their guidelines on journalism had been appropriated by the government and used to exclude.

00:09:28.060 So the CAJ has been solid on the issue of press freedom in the past.

00:09:32.980 However, the Canadian Association of Journalists would also not admit True North as a member because they draw a line internally for what journalism is that excludes us.

00:09:43.580 That being said, that's besides the point.

00:09:45.740 I'm just trying to give some context about where it is they're coming from here.

00:09:49.740 They believe that they are the official club, and in a lot of ways they are, for journalists in Canada.

00:09:58.500 So they're absolutely right to want to support their members.

00:10:01.440 They're absolutely in the right to want to tell members,

00:10:04.040 hey, if you've been, you know, having some troubles with people emailing you things and you need some support,

00:10:08.520 we're going to reach out and provide it to you.

00:10:10.440 That's all fine.

00:10:11.240 But to say that the police should be investigating a political leader for mean tweets about journalists is absolutely,

00:10:22.000 I mean, it's just, it's egregious.

00:10:23.380 For starters, it just doesn't help them.

00:10:26.060 It doesn't help them because it turns back on them because all of a sudden most people are going to say just toughen up.

00:10:32.180 And that's terrible because I've seen some of the email, I mean, I see emails that are sent to me,

00:10:37.620 but I've seen some of the emails that a lot of reporters will tweet out that they get,

00:10:41.540 vile things, sexist, racist, just horrible things that no one should say at all to another human being.

00:10:48.460 And when I see that, I'm like, oh, I don't like that people are subjected to that nastiness.

00:10:53.500 It's just, it's just not good.

00:10:55.840 And while that is inexcusable,

00:10:58.480 I am a firm believer in this idea that there are certain jobs and roles you take on that invite it.

00:11:05.480 And that doesn't make it right.

00:11:07.600 That I'm not at all doing this.

00:11:09.260 I'm not, don't accuse me of victim blaming.

00:11:10.960 I'm not saying it's right.

00:11:11.980 I'm saying that in the society that we have now, it's going to happen.

00:11:16.420 So you do need to have a tough skin and by and large, a lot of journalists do.

00:11:21.740 But more importantly, journalists above most other groups should be taking a very firm stand

00:11:28.460 in support of free speech, unequivocally, unquestioningly in support of free speech.

00:11:35.120 That should be the role of journalists because journalists use their free speech to challenge

00:11:39.260 authority.

00:11:39.760 They use their right to freedom of the press to challenge authority.

00:11:43.080 And you can only do that if you take a principled stand in support of free speech.

00:11:47.720 So what the Canadian Association of Journalists is doing here is calling on Canada's police

00:11:55.720 to start clamping down on speech that they do not approve of.

00:12:00.660 Now, I want you to understand why this is such a bizarre position to take.

00:12:05.640 Because the CAJ has for years taken aim at the RCMP for being too heavy handed.

00:12:12.580 There's one statement in 2017, RCMP named Canada's most secretive law agency, as they

00:12:20.240 talk about giving the RCMP the Code of Silence Award for achievement in government secrecy,

00:12:25.780 which, by the way, the RCMP probably deserves.

00:12:28.100 Another article here where the CAJ says that the RCMP needs to follow the court order to

00:12:33.100 respect media rights after a journalist was arrested at Ferry Creek out in Vancouver Island

00:12:39.220 or on Vancouver Island.

00:12:40.620 So the idea here is that they've accused the RCMP in the past of being too opaque, of being

00:12:48.360 too heavy handed, of not respecting rights.

00:12:50.600 And now they're turning around and saying, we don't like what Maxime Bernier tweeted.

00:12:55.080 So you should launch an investigation and charge him with hate speech.

00:13:00.680 Now, here's the thing.

00:13:02.360 Twitter has its own policies.

00:13:04.060 Twitter suspended Bernier's account and pulled the tweet.

00:13:06.960 Twitter made its decision there based on its terms of service.

00:13:10.620 In a free market sense, that's what should have happened.

00:13:12.940 But they want to go one step further.

00:13:16.020 What do they do?

00:13:16.520 Do they want him in handcuffs?

00:13:18.080 Do they want him?

00:13:18.660 What do they want to happen?

00:13:20.180 Do they want to make it illegal to tweet out a reporter's email address and say, tell them

00:13:25.220 what you think?

00:13:27.120 Again, I wouldn't do it because I think it surrenders the moral high ground.

00:13:32.000 But I certainly would not support the criminalization of something like that.

00:13:39.320 And I remember years ago when Section 13 was first under the microscope around the time

00:13:44.900 it was repealed by a private member's bill from Conservative MP Brian Storseth.

00:13:49.260 Most people in the media were very much in favor of free speech.

00:13:53.200 They were against Section 13.

00:13:54.960 They were in favor of it being repealed.

00:13:57.100 And it's scary how a decade later, less than a decade later in fact, the media cabal really

00:14:04.660 doesn't care all that much about free speech.

00:14:07.120 They want to protect their rights.

00:14:08.960 They want to protect their insular freedoms.

00:14:11.460 And this is the problem with the parliamentary press gallery monopoly is that they oftentimes

00:14:15.740 as an organization, I'm not talking about individual reporters, as an organization, they tend to

00:14:20.600 only look inward and focus on their own rights, their own freedoms, without looking at the

00:14:27.860 broader picture.

00:14:29.300 And I've got to give credit where it's due.

00:14:31.100 I've told the story countless times, and I'm going to keep telling it, when I was covering

00:14:34.760 the Global Conference for Media Freedom in London, England in 2019.

00:14:39.840 And Chrystia Freeland said, we're going to let everyone into our press conferences except

00:14:44.120 for Rebel and True North.

00:14:45.860 Sheila Gunn-Reed was there for Rebel.

00:14:47.440 I was there for True North.

00:14:48.620 All of the reporters from the Globe and Mail, CBC, CTV, Al Jazeera, Global News, they all

00:14:55.040 said, we're not covering your stinking press conference unless you accredit everyone.

00:15:00.860 I want to see more of that.

00:15:03.260 And for the most part, I do.

00:15:05.680 I've been treated very well when I was out on the campaign trail covering the conservatives.

00:15:10.060 I had great relationships with a lot of journalists.

00:15:12.440 We worked together.

00:15:13.120 But some of these institutions, these organizations, I don't know if you're familiar with it.

00:15:19.060 John O'Sullivan, who's a fantastic writer, I've interviewed him in the past.

00:15:22.320 I should have him back on.

00:15:23.540 He was a former advisor to Margaret Thatcher.

00:15:26.660 He coined O'Sullivan's first law, in which he said that any institution that is not explicitly

00:15:33.280 right-wing will over time become explicitly left-wing.

00:15:36.940 And it's impossible to come up with a piece of, I mean, even a lot of the so-called right-wing

00:15:42.620 organizations still drift left.

00:15:44.220 But he was tremendously on point with that.

00:15:47.680 And I would say a lot of these journalism organizations are the same.

00:15:50.780 They're made up of journalists who, on an individual level, may be fair and balanced and dedicated.

00:15:55.520 But once they morph into that institution, the institution takes on a mind of its own.

00:16:01.460 And as we're seeing in the CAJ, moves in a direction that fundamentally does not respect

00:16:06.700 the very right on which its members rely to earn a living and to do the work they do.

00:16:13.320 And it's absolutely shameful.

00:16:15.500 We've got to take a break.

00:16:16.440 When we come back, more of The Andrew Lawton Show here on True North.

00:16:19.580 Stay tuned.

00:16:21.800 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:16:26.300 Welcome back to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:16:28.580 Speaking of the RCMP, I have to talk about this story.

00:16:31.280 And also speaking of the media, the RCMP's union is pushing back against the vaccine mandate

00:16:38.280 that Justin Trudeau has promised.

00:16:39.580 He said just the other day, if you have flights booked in the next couple of weeks, you better

00:16:43.900 make sure you're vaccinated because the mandate is coming.

00:16:47.300 That's the message that he's putting forward.

00:16:50.340 And interestingly enough, there was a tweet from Rosemary Barton that I found kind of interesting.

00:16:56.800 Justin Trudeau was doing some photo op at a vaccine clinic and there was a guy getting

00:17:01.800 vaccinated and he told Justin Trudeau he's getting it because he realizes he can't do, I won't 1.00

00:17:08.180 say the word because I don't want to lose our clean tag on iTunes, but you can see it up on the 0.87

00:17:11.440 screen there, he can't do crap until he gets it.

00:17:14.540 So that actually is very dangerous for people who are opposing vaccine mandates because there 0.72

00:17:20.160 are a lot of people that are like that guy where they're only getting it because they feel

00:17:24.180 the government is forcing them to.

00:17:26.580 But anyway, the RCMP union is pushing back against a vaccine mandate.

00:17:31.460 They say that a police officer should have a right to refuse vaccination.

00:17:35.600 Now, this is a position that most civilized people and most civilized societies would take,

00:17:41.940 that you do not surrender your right to decide what you put in your body.

00:17:46.380 But I want to, I mean, the story itself is pretty standard, but I want to hone in on the

00:17:50.960 way CBC reported on the story.

00:17:53.400 Look at the headline and look at the use of quotation marks.

00:17:56.720 The RCMP union says it supports a Mountie's right to refuse vaccination.

00:18:02.600 And I know they're quoting, but at the same time, they're also making a point when they

00:18:08.860 say that whoever wrote the headline, and oftentimes it's, in fact, usually it's not the reporter

00:18:13.340 itself who writes the reporter themselves who writes the headline, but, but by whoever wrote

00:18:17.200 that headline is trying to say that this is just a made up thing.

00:18:20.500 You don't have a right.

00:18:21.220 They support their right to refuse vaccination.

00:18:24.080 And there's something very revealing in just a couple of small quotation marks.

00:18:28.900 Sheila Gunn-Reed, Sheila's getting a couple of plugs on the show today. 1.00

00:18:32.180 Sheila's a good friend.

00:18:33.280 I do not regret this at all.

00:18:35.180 But she asked on Twitter, why did you put right in scare quotes?

00:18:38.640 It is their right.

00:18:39.560 Yeah, they are the, they are the scare quotes.

00:18:41.460 Those are what you do when you want to terrify someone, which is basically what's happening

00:18:45.300 now.

00:18:45.580 Although in fairness, I do think that we should put some quotation marks in the Canadian

00:18:49.660 Charter of Rights and Freedoms now around rights and freedoms.

00:18:52.700 Doesn't that work?

00:18:53.360 The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

00:18:56.580 See, that's how you use scare quotes, CBC.

00:19:00.400 One interesting thing, just before we jump into talking about government pay and public

00:19:05.820 sector pay is the Aaron O'Toole leadership fight.

00:19:09.340 Now, Aaron O'Toole is still gung-ho wanting to hold on to his leadership of the Conservative

00:19:14.220 Party of Canada.

00:19:15.660 And one interesting development in this is that Premier Jason Kenney is supporting Aaron

00:19:22.320 O'Toole still sort of.

00:19:24.860 And I say sort of for a reason that will become apparent in just a moment.

00:19:28.960 Now, to give you a bit of the backstory here, Jason Kenney gave a very, very desirable endorsement

00:19:34.940 to O'Toole during the leadership race last year.

00:19:37.920 Kenney's endorsement likely moved some votes in Alberta, certainly established Aaron O'Toole

00:19:42.900 as being the anti-Peter McKay candidate, which I think is very positive outside of, you know,

00:19:48.340 perhaps Atlantic Canada and maybe a couple of downtown Toronto ridings.

00:19:52.180 And that endorsement from Kenney came with the designation that Aaron O'Toole is the only

00:19:57.920 true blue Conservative.

00:19:59.060 He's the only one that's not going to bring the party to the left.

00:20:01.940 He's solid, rah, rah, rah.

00:20:03.320 So I was interested because I was covering a press conference by Jason Kenney last week

00:20:09.100 in this idea of whether he still supports O'Toole's continued leadership.

00:20:13.960 Here was that exchange.

00:20:15.260 Last year, you endorsed Aaron O'Toole's leadership bid, which we know was ultimately successful

00:20:20.200 for the Conservative Party.

00:20:22.060 After the election results, there have been some calls from within the federal Conservative

00:20:26.140 Party for Aaron O'Toole to step down or certainly people wanting him to lose a leadership

00:20:31.980 review, perhaps.

00:20:33.200 Does he have your support to remain as federal Conservative leader still?

00:20:37.960 I think that a party like the Federal Conservatives should maintain stability.

00:20:45.280 You know, I was part of Prime Minister Harper's Conservative Party when he lost the 2004 election.

00:20:50.560 Many people were disappointed.

00:20:51.580 He went on to become Prime Minister and form a very effective government for the next decade.

00:20:56.720 So I think constantly changing leaders doesn't create a public confidence.

00:21:06.140 And I think, you know, to be a leader as Mr. O'Toole has tried to be in the context of

00:21:11.900 the pandemic is especially challenging to get your message out, to meet Canadians, to get

00:21:15.300 to be known.

00:21:16.480 So I'm sure that Aaron is going to work with his team to identify things that could have

00:21:22.160 been done better in this campaign and the lead up to it, to listen to Grassroots Party

00:21:27.540 members.

00:21:28.480 But I think the immediate instinct to remove a leader after a disappointing election outcome

00:21:35.640 just creates constant instability.

00:21:38.560 I've played this for a few different people.

00:21:41.800 And it's interesting how people take different things from it.

00:21:45.240 So when I heard that, I was thinking it was very tacit.

00:21:48.700 He didn't talk about anything objectively about O'Toole that he thinks makes him deserving

00:21:52.920 of staying on.

00:21:53.760 There was even that one line about O'Toole trying to be a leader.

00:21:57.920 And at the same time, he seems to emphasize continuity and stability more than, yeah, Aaron

00:22:03.160 O'Toole has a lot to be proud of and he should carry on.

00:22:06.120 Now, other people have heard that and say, yeah, he's supporting O'Toole.

00:22:09.340 He's saying that O'Toole should remain on.

00:22:11.560 So I'll let you figure out what he means.

00:22:13.920 I don't want to start parsing words and saying, oh, well, you know, it sounded like there

00:22:17.140 was a comma there and that changes the meaning of it.

00:22:19.560 But certainly it wasn't gung-ho.

00:22:21.480 It wasn't an enthusiastic support, which I found interesting.

00:22:25.580 However, there's another angle to this, which is that Jason Kenney is facing calls for his

00:22:31.700 own ousting from the leadership of the United Conservative Party.

00:22:35.820 So I understand him not wanting to decide to be on team, let's dethrone the leader right

00:22:41.880 about now.

00:22:42.380 He's had two MLAs in his caucus, Lila Ahir and Angela Pitt, within the last week that

00:22:47.840 have said they do not have confidence in his leadership.

00:22:50.940 They've not been kicked out just yet.

00:22:53.380 But when Todd Lowen and Drew Barnes said very similar things a few months back, they were

00:22:58.640 gone in very short order.

00:23:00.140 And the UCP has actually moved up its leadership review.

00:23:04.140 They were supposed to have one in the fall, wherein United Conservative Party members in

00:23:08.700 Alberta could vote to oust Jason Kenney as leader.

00:23:12.440 That was going to be in the fall.

00:23:13.720 Now they've moved it up to the spring by popular demand.

00:23:17.460 Now, in fairness, this is something that's constitutionally mandated.

00:23:20.660 It's not because they're wanting to get rid of Jason Kenney that they're doing this,

00:23:25.480 but there is a lot of interest and a lot of demand for doing it more quickly and doing

00:23:31.220 it sooner.

00:23:31.940 So that is reflective of a demand in the UCP.

00:23:36.300 So we will certainly be following that and I'll be out there in April in Edmonton.

00:23:41.660 Not that April in Edmonton is still winter, I think, by Edmonton standards.

00:23:45.800 So I'll dress warmly, but I will be there.

00:23:47.600 I will be covering that for you as that nears.

00:23:50.840 I want to turn to one topic that always is unchanging.

00:23:54.820 Another one of these dog bites man topics, but I still think one worth talking about, 1.00

00:23:59.020 and that is public sector pay on the rise.

00:24:01.700 And specifically in this context, public sector pay not on the decline.

00:24:05.820 A lot of Canadians dealt with pay freezes or pay cuts or job losses over the pandemic.

00:24:11.060 In the private sector, the public sector pretty immune from that, even as the tax base shrinks

00:24:17.160 and other austerity measures come into play.

00:24:20.380 I want to talk about a new report from our friends over at secondstreet.org.

00:24:23.700 COVID has led to pay cuts in business, but no government has cut pay.

00:24:28.700 Colin Craig is the president and joins me now.

00:24:31.360 Colin, good to talk to you.

00:24:32.340 Thanks for coming on as always.

00:24:34.380 Well, thanks for having me, Andrew.

00:24:36.140 So explain this.

00:24:37.500 We've seen for the last year and a half, businesses that have been forced by government

00:24:41.240 fiat to shut down.

00:24:42.760 We've had a lot of insecurity in the private sector on jobs,

00:24:46.540 yet none of that insecurity and uncertainty has made its way to the public sector.

00:24:51.520 Yeah, that's basically it.

00:24:53.660 As the pandemic emerged, we saw all these news stories about various businesses in many

00:24:57.880 industries struggling and having no choice but to cut back on compensation.

00:25:02.840 Everything from Chrysler in the automotive sector to oil and gas companies to entertainment

00:25:09.700 companies like Cineplex, CFL teams.

00:25:12.400 There were so many different stories.

00:25:13.960 We thought, well, wait a second.

00:25:14.920 You know, there's one sector here that's missing, and that's the government.

00:25:17.720 And so it got us thinking, you know, when was the last time that governments actually

00:25:22.020 cut employee pay?

00:25:23.140 And so we filed these requests right across the country to ask that question.

00:25:27.360 I know that we haven't yet seen the totality of the financial toll that COVID has taken.

00:25:33.800 And I include in that not just the pandemic itself, but also the lockdowns and restrictions

00:25:38.140 and whatnot.

00:25:39.220 But one thing that we know is that the private sector has to be responsive to the market.

00:25:43.380 If your business goes down, you don't have enough money to keep your staff and you don't

00:25:47.220 need as many staff.

00:25:48.480 In the case of government, we know from all of these business losses that the tax base

00:25:52.480 had to shrink, at least in some way.

00:25:54.640 But that same responsiveness to revenue, to inflow, isn't there with government.

00:26:00.580 No, it's not.

00:26:01.360 Because governments just look at your kids and mine. 0.55

00:26:04.160 They just rack up tons and tons of debt rather than saying, hey, wait a second.

00:26:09.000 You know, we got to curtail spending a bit.

00:26:10.840 I don't think too many Canadians would say the government shouldn't have done anything

00:26:14.980 in terms of relief in that.

00:26:16.360 I think most people would agree that that was necessary.

00:26:18.860 But just the overall largesse, there was no restraint on the government's part.

00:26:23.780 So you had lots of people in the private sector taking pay reductions.

00:26:27.900 And as our research found, really nothing in government.

00:26:32.460 You know, the federal government told us that they don't have any records of ever cutting

00:26:36.460 employee pay, never mind during the pandemic, never at all.

00:26:40.840 That's what they told us.

00:26:42.280 Or if it did happen, it went so far back that everyone's forgotten and no one has any record

00:26:46.300 of it.

00:26:47.740 Provincially, pretty much across the country, provinces had no records on any kind of pay

00:26:54.060 reductions.

00:26:54.680 The last pay reduction seemed to have happened in the 1990s, which, you know, if you think

00:26:59.260 about that, that's over 20 years ago now since there's been any real wage restraint in

00:27:04.060 government at the provincial level.

00:27:06.320 Well, the one example that we did find was Manitoba, where employees were required to

00:27:11.000 take five unpaid days off, which isn't the same as a pay cut, because with a pay cut,

00:27:16.300 you still do the same amount of work.

00:27:17.880 You just make less doing it.

00:27:19.860 So that was one example provincially.

00:27:22.000 And then at the city level, we saw that in Mississauga, they had four positions that will

00:27:27.400 receive a pay reduction, but it's not for current employees, it's for future employees.

00:27:32.380 So the bottom line is out of millions and millions of government employees covered by our

00:27:36.300 information requests, there were no pay cuts.

00:27:39.080 And when you talk about how far back this goes, yeah, it's possible that, you know, in 1927,

00:27:45.260 the fisheries department took, you know, took a pay cut in some way.

00:27:48.680 But we're talking about overwhelmingly a compensation that's only ever rising and never going back,

00:27:54.400 even when the economy itself retreats, it sounds like.

00:27:58.060 Yeah, basically.

00:27:58.860 I mean, we fundamentally have two different societies when it comes to working in this country.

00:28:04.860 You have those outside of government who, as you alluded to, have to face the ups and downs

00:28:10.040 of the market.

00:28:11.040 Companies have to respond.

00:28:12.540 They have to compete.

00:28:13.540 They have to be responsible.

00:28:14.740 They can't just rack up enormous amounts of debt to not worry about how they're going

00:28:19.980 to pay for it.

00:28:21.040 And then on the other side of the equation is government.

00:28:24.600 And government.

00:28:27.220 And I mean, there's been hundreds of thousands of employees in government who actually received

00:28:32.080 pay increases during the pandemic.

00:28:34.860 In some cases, those were contracts that had been signed before the pandemic hit.

00:28:40.360 But in other cases, you had the government out signing new contracts with pay increases

00:28:44.580 during the pandemic.

00:28:45.520 And the CTF, the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, found that over 300,000 federal employees alone

00:28:51.340 received a pay increase during the pandemic.

00:28:53.340 So it's really two different worlds.

00:28:55.160 And I think it's fair when people ask that question, how is this fair for everyday working

00:29:01.960 people who are having to face these tough economic times, and yet they're paying for

00:29:07.400 people in government who don't really have to face it?

00:29:09.720 I do get the question of fairness, but if you're a public sector worker who signed up to work

00:29:16.620 for whatever department or whatever municipality under a certain set of circumstances, I can

00:29:21.420 understand you listening to this interview right now and saying, well, hang on, why does

00:29:25.400 other people's suffering have to become my suffering?

00:29:27.960 I mean, isn't there an argument that instead of trying to be doing this race to the bottom,

00:29:31.980 we could try to remove some of these barriers that were preventing the public sector from

00:29:36.080 having prosperity or the private sector, rather?

00:29:39.220 Yeah, and I think we have to ask the question, well, when would the public sector ever have

00:29:43.420 to feel the pinch?

00:29:45.560 If not now, during a downturn when everyone else is and they're the ones who are struggling

00:29:50.040 to put food on their tables and they're also having to pay for pay increases and those in

00:29:56.320 government to not ever be affected, it doesn't seem like a fair argument to say that those

00:30:01.880 in government should never have their belts tightened.

00:30:04.860 And to be fair, it's not the case that there's never any restraint.

00:30:08.360 You will see pay freezes in government.

00:30:12.500 You will see that from time to time, but it's the actual pay cut, a 5% cut, a 10% pay cut,

00:30:18.960 whatever it is, it's just, it's really become unheard of in government.

00:30:23.020 Like I say, the last examples that we identified went back to the 1990s in Ontario.

00:30:28.260 They had Ray Days, which is similar to what I talked about with what Manitoba did, where

00:30:32.100 they had unpaid days.

00:30:33.760 They did do that up to 12 unpaid days.

00:30:36.100 Manitoba did something similar.

00:30:37.880 In Alberta, they did a 5% pay reduction.

00:30:41.160 PEI did something, I believe it was in the late 90s too.

00:30:43.600 So you did see those examples in the 90s and at the provincial level, but really it's been

00:30:48.140 a totally different world since the 90s.

00:30:50.780 And you have this sort of two society state where you have those in government who really

00:30:56.240 are not affected by what's happening in the outside world.

00:30:59.800 And then those in the outside world, people in private sector and nonprofits and that,

00:31:03.140 that quite often do have to feel the pinch.

00:31:06.400 And how did the underlying circumstances that led to that austerity in the 90s compare to

00:31:12.560 the challenges in the last year and a half?

00:31:15.520 You know, that's a very good question.

00:31:16.660 My guess would be that it would pale in comparison to what we're facing today.

00:31:20.880 I mean, you look at the federal government alone, they racked up hundreds and hundreds

00:31:24.340 of billions of dollars in debt in one year alone, simply to pay for the pandemic.

00:31:30.500 A lot of provinces are back swimming in debt again.

00:31:34.220 So there's a lot of very tough financial situations out there.

00:31:38.320 And I think really what people might want to reflect on is this.

00:31:42.180 How do we address this situation we're in?

00:31:44.040 We've got governments spending way more than what they're bringing in in revenues.

00:31:48.260 And that is not sustainable.

00:31:49.880 So how do you deal with it?

00:31:51.540 And often governments present two scenarios.

00:31:53.580 They say we either cut services or we raise taxes.

00:31:57.680 Now, I think a lot of the services that Canadians receive from governments, they probably wouldn't

00:32:02.540 want those cut. 0.93

00:32:03.580 Policing, health care, people fixing roads and bridges.

00:32:06.300 And then on the other end of the equation, you've got raising taxes.

00:32:11.100 No one wants to see taxes go up right now because that would hurt a lot of families that are

00:32:14.880 struggling and a lot of businesses that are struggling.

00:32:17.480 So you often hear these two scenarios.

00:32:19.580 There is a third.

00:32:20.220 And that is to do a better job with the revenues that governments have right now.

00:32:24.260 And one thing they can do is cut salaries back a little bit, cut pensions back a little bit,

00:32:30.400 you know, bring the compensation packages back down to size so that they're more fair with

00:32:34.800 what people in outside government are receiving for the same type of work.

00:32:38.560 And that's one way you can ensure the services continue.

00:32:41.100 It's just done a little bit more cost effectively.

00:32:43.180 I know this was a multi-government level project on your part.

00:32:49.020 You went across the country, federal, provincial, municipal.

00:32:51.600 What were the standout examples, really the worst examples, either for lack of transparency

00:32:56.480 or just for how little in the way of restraint they were exhibiting?

00:33:02.160 You know, that's a very good question.

00:33:03.860 A lot of governments didn't even know when the last time was that they reduced pay.

00:33:09.540 You know, like I said, Ottawa told us they don't have any records of ever doing that.

00:33:12.600 I believe it was New Brunswick as well that did that.

00:33:18.260 You know, in Calgary, Calgary is a city that has been struggling for a good five or six years

00:33:23.560 now because of the oil and gas downturn especially.

00:33:27.360 And they gave us data going back to the 1970s showing that there has been no pay cuts at all,

00:33:33.220 zero.

00:33:34.400 And so there's a lot of examples like that where we know that different parts of the country

00:33:39.340 have struggled economically.

00:33:41.020 And you can see that governments just kind of sailed right through, that there was no

00:33:45.420 wage restraint whatsoever.

00:33:47.440 And I think ultimately the big picture is that we see these studies from the Canadian

00:33:51.560 Federation of Independent Business, from the Fraser Institute and others that show this

00:33:56.300 compensation gap.

00:33:57.320 Government employees making more in terms of their total compensation than people outside

00:34:01.960 of government doing similar work.

00:34:03.320 And so the end result is this, you have everyday taxpayers that have to pay more for those

00:34:09.440 in government to make this higher compensation level.

00:34:13.660 So, you know, the end result is it costs everyday people more in taxes.

00:34:18.560 And I, you know, to be clear, I wouldn't look at the everyday worker in government and say,

00:34:25.540 well, this is their fault.

00:34:26.420 I mean, most people just go to work and they want to put in an honest day's work and get

00:34:30.180 a good paycheck for it.

00:34:31.660 But it's ultimately elected officials and governments that agree to these contracts and

00:34:35.480 they've let these compensation levels run away from what would be competitive.

00:34:40.660 Yeah, and I think it's also important, and I know it's outside the scope of this report,

00:34:45.780 but to look at the general imbalance between public and private sector pay for the same

00:34:51.040 jobs in general, because this is something I know other research has shown is already

00:34:55.820 an area where there's a significant gap.

00:34:58.440 So the public sector employees for the same job in the private sector are making more and

00:35:02.860 pensions.

00:35:03.660 I mean, we could go on all day with this, but I'm glad you've done the work on this.

00:35:06.780 SecondStreet.org has the new report, finding no evidence of any major governments dropping

00:35:12.060 pay despite private sector businesses having to do that or just shut down altogether.

00:35:17.140 Colin Craig, SecondStreet's president, joins us now.

00:35:19.700 Thanks so much for coming on, Colin.

00:35:21.200 Well, thanks for having me, Andrew.

00:35:22.640 And if any of your viewers or listeners would like to actually see their government responses,

00:35:27.420 they're all on our website.

00:35:28.260 They can see them for themselves.

00:35:30.240 Perfect.

00:35:30.680 And we'll put it up on the screen there right now.

00:35:32.880 Thanks very much.

00:35:33.500 We'll talk to you soon, Colin.

00:35:34.700 Thanks again.

00:35:35.180 That was Colin Craig.

00:35:37.180 Like I said, the sun rises, the sun sets, public sector pay goes up, private sector pay goes

00:35:41.600 down.

00:35:41.940 Some things are unchanging, but you still need reminders of that from time to time.

00:35:46.240 We have to end things there.

00:35:47.720 My thanks to all of you for tuning in to the show today.

00:35:50.940 And do check out the Canada Strong and Free Conference on Saturday featuring yours truly

00:35:55.820 and many better people.

00:35:58.140 I mean, if you're signing up just for me, great.

00:35:59.960 But there are other reasons.

00:36:00.980 So at least check out the website and see who's there.

00:36:03.720 We'll talk to you soon.

00:36:05.240 Thank you.

00:36:05.700 God bless and good day to you all.

00:36:07.880 Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:36:09.720 Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.

Juno News - September 30, 2021

Journalists are calling the cops on Maxime Bernier for tweeting

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