Juno News - Justin Trudeau just took control of the internet (feat. Candice Malcolm)

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show. This is The Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.

00:00:10.000 Hello and welcome to The Andrew Lawton Show, Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show here on True North.

00:00:17.000 Not in the usual digs today, I'm actually coming to you from the Arthur Meehan Lounge in the Albany Club,

00:00:24.000 the Conservative hotspot in Canada and has been for many, many years now.

00:00:29.000 Former Conservative Prime Ministers have graced this establishment and they somehow let the likes of me in here.

00:00:35.000 So we're going to do a very special edition of the show and it is special for a couple of reasons,

00:00:39.000 not just because we're at the Albany Club, but also my friend and colleague, well actually my boss, not my colleague,

00:00:45.000 Candace Malcolm is going to swing by. We were able to just pull her back from her maternity leave for a little bit 0.86

00:00:51.000 to chat about the state of True North, the state of independent media in Canada,

00:00:56.000 and what an important topic that is with the news of yesterday that Bill C-11, the Liberal government's internet regulation bill,

00:01:05.000 has finally become law. And this is something that I don't want to understate the significance of,

00:01:14.000 because the government's whole MO on this, their whole strategy in selling this bill was that it was benign.

00:01:20.000 We just wanted to celebrate Canadian stories. We wanted to celebrate Canadian content.

00:01:24.000 And the little joke that I told on the show and told on Twitter a few months ago was that I think the way we kill Bill C-11 0.95

00:01:31.000 is to have Rebel and True North and the Western Standard and all of these other unacceptable Canadian outlets form some PSA group

00:01:39.000 and run ads thanking the government for highlighting our stories.

00:01:43.000 Because after all, we're Canadian content, so we should be the ones that are forced onto your home pages when Bill C-11 passes.

00:01:49.000 Now, that's not going to happen. And let me be clear, I don't want it to happen.

00:01:53.000 I don't want government to give us or anyone a leg up in manipulating algorithms on social media.

00:01:59.000 What I want is for government to let the internet be what the internet is supposed to be,

00:02:04.000 which is a place that people can go and have access to a wealth of content from around the world

00:02:09.000 and on which they can seek out what they want to watch on their own for their own reasons.

00:02:16.000 So I don't want to just use this topic as a basically taking the position that you already know what's happening here.

00:02:24.000 So I'm going to just give you the 60 second primer on Bill C-11.

00:02:28.000 Bill C-11 does a couple of things.

00:02:30.000 The first and foremost is that it expands the CRTC's regulatory purview from TV and radio stations to the internet,

00:02:39.000 and specifically to internet content.

00:02:41.000 The second part of that is it imposes all of these regulations on content that it has on TV and radio,

00:02:48.000 notably Canadian content, which is why we've all heard Justin Bieber and Celine Dion and Nickelback more times than we'd like to.

00:02:55.000 Actually, the last time I said that, I got like a very, very pointed email from someone who didn't like that I took a swipe at Nickelback.

00:03:02.000 So I'm not taking a swipe at it.

00:03:04.000 I'm just saying that this is the reason we hear more Canadian content than we might normally in a market-based system.

00:03:10.000 I'll just put it that way.

00:03:12.000 But they're going to take all of these Canadian content rules that they put on radio and TV and put them on the internet.

00:03:18.000 Now, the great thing about the internet is that you can actually listen to or watch what you want when you want.

00:03:24.000 You don't need the government to tell you.

00:03:27.000 You don't need the government to say, oh, you must have 30% Canadian content to be a radio station.

00:03:33.000 You must have this much Canadian news to be a TV station.

00:03:36.000 You can actually say, you know what?

00:03:37.000 I want to hear what's happening in India today.

00:03:39.000 I'm going to go over and read something in the Delhi Times.

00:03:43.000 Or you'd say, you know what?

00:03:44.000 I really love K-pop.

00:03:45.000 I really love Korean music.

00:03:47.000 I'm going to go and listen to all the K-pop. 0.98

00:03:50.000 And it's actually, if you want to take the Liberals' own identity politics playbook and use it against them,

00:03:56.000 their imposition of Canadian content on people's YouTube homepages is actually a little bit racist.

00:04:02.000 Because now they're telling people that content that they might be ethnically or culturally or religiously connected to is not Canadian content.

00:04:11.000 Imagine being a Korean Canadian and you log online and you want to watch, I don't know, something from your home and native land of South Korea.

00:04:19.000 And instead you have to watch Brittle Star, the, you know, quintessentially inferior Canadian content provider.

00:04:25.000 Like that's basically what's happening here.

00:04:27.000 We are banalifying the internet to just make up a word.

00:04:31.000 But that is only if this works the way the Liberals say it's going to work.

00:04:36.000 I actually think it's going to be much worse than that.

00:04:39.000 Because at best, at best, what C11 does is forces us to have Canadian content on our homepage and starts burying and hiding other things that might be of interest to us that we don't want.

00:04:50.000 And the government said, well, we don't do the algorithm. No.

00:04:53.000 But the government is forcing YouTube and Netflix and Facebook and Twitter to have these algorithms.

00:05:00.000 They don't need to do it.

00:05:01.000 In fact, a government programmed algorithm would probably not work at all.

00:05:04.000 You would just get an error message on every page.

00:05:07.000 So that's the government's goal for C11.

00:05:10.000 The nefarious side of this, which I don't think is off base, is that they're going to start looking not just at country of origin,

00:05:19.000 for content, but the content of the content, the substance of the content.

00:05:24.000 They're going to start saying, well, hang on.

00:05:26.000 It's not just that we need to elevate Canadian content.

00:05:30.000 Maybe we need to elevate non-controversial Canadian content or maybe only Liberal content.

00:05:36.000 Maybe JJ McCullough, who's one of the most successful YouTubers in Canada, very Canadian.

00:05:41.000 Maybe he's not Canadian enough.

00:05:43.000 The guy says a boot for crying out loud.

00:05:45.000 It doesn't get more Canadian than JJ McCullough.

00:05:48.000 But maybe the Liberals don't want to put him on the homepage because they'd rather put someone else.

00:05:53.000 Maybe they'd rather put Justin Trudeau's selfie videos.

00:05:56.000 You know the ones I'm talking about.

00:05:58.000 Maybe that's what Canadian content is to the government.

00:06:01.000 So at best, C11 is just about neutralizing the internet and making it all Canadian all the time. 1.00

00:06:08.000 At worst, it's about government picking and choosing which voices can be seen and which voices can be heard.

00:06:15.000 And this is something that regulates the individual user experience.

00:06:19.000 And I want to talk about the politics of this now because this bill took years.

00:06:24.000 It was originally in the previous parliament before the 2021 election, Bill C-10.

00:06:29.000 And then there was a bunch of controversy.

00:06:31.000 You had a few people that were jumping up and down about it.

00:06:34.000 Aaron O'Toole, it was one of the few issues he took a very clear position on.

00:06:37.000 He was against it.

00:06:38.000 And then the election came and the bill died.

00:06:41.000 And then they brought it back as C11 in the current parliament.

00:06:45.000 And a lot of the controversy actually grew.

00:06:48.000 You've had even some academics that are not conservatives.

00:06:51.000 People like Michael Geist that are saying,

00:06:53.000 whoa, whoa, whoa, why do we want to do this to the internet?

00:06:56.000 And this controversy has put a bit of pressure on politicians.

00:07:00.000 It put a bit of pressure on the Senate.

00:07:02.000 But the Senate failed Canadians.

00:07:05.000 We were all told that the sober second thought is the promise of the Senate.

00:07:10.000 That they're going to be able to be reflective and really get into the meat of things

00:07:14.000 and really have hearings and committee witnesses and all of that.

00:07:17.000 And they did that.

00:07:18.000 They proposed amendments and the Liberals said, 0.99

00:07:21.000 ha ha, screw you. 0.97

00:07:22.000 And then they went back to the Senate and the Senator said, 0.99

00:07:24.000 no, but we put amendments on.

00:07:25.000 And the Liberals said, nah.

00:07:27.000 And then the Senate said, okay, fine, we'll pass it anyway.

00:07:29.000 So the Justin Trudeau version of the Senate is that it's independent,

00:07:33.000 that all of these people he appointed are not actually liberals.

00:07:36.000 They're all independent senators.

00:07:38.000 And a couple of them have found a voice

00:07:40.000 and a couple of them have found a backbone along the way.

00:07:42.000 But the Senate failed Canadians.

00:07:45.000 The Senate actually did not care enough about free speech and internet freedom

00:07:50.000 to push back against this.

00:07:51.000 All of these Trudeau appointed senators prove that they are far from independent.

00:07:56.000 Not that there's ever much question about that, but that's what they claim.

00:08:00.000 They even call themselves the independent senators group.

00:08:02.000 Well, they are certainly a group and they are certainly senators,

00:08:05.000 but independent they are not.

00:08:07.000 And then Thursday night, basically minutes after the Senate passed it,

00:08:11.000 it's off to Governor General Mary Simon signed into law.

00:08:16.000 Now, one of the things that C11 does, which I think is an important point here,

00:08:20.000 is it puts on CRTC the goal of coming up with the regulations.

00:08:25.000 So not all of the regulations are in the law itself.

00:08:28.000 The CRTC, which is appointed bureaucrats, unelected appointed bureaucrats,

00:08:33.000 they have to come up with some of the nitty gritty details of how this is going to work.

00:08:38.000 Which means there's another battle right now.

00:08:40.000 And C11 had passed the Senate and I think like 30 minutes later,

00:08:44.000 there was this statement that was put out by one of these cultural activist groups

00:08:49.000 that was calling for the CRTC to expand it.

00:08:52.000 I want to read that for you.

00:08:53.000 This is the Coalition for the Diversity of Cultural Expressions.

00:08:57.000 They supposedly represent 360,000 creators and 2,900 cultural enterprises.

00:09:03.000 We'd love to see how much that is just propped up by subsidy every year.

00:09:07.000 They're cheering the passage of Bill C11 and they say this.

00:09:11.000 It's in all bold, so you know it's important.

00:09:13.000 In the coming months, the government will issue a policy direction to the CRTC

00:09:18.000 and the latter will then have the important responsibility of developing the rules

00:09:22.000 that will apply to each of the new services that are now clearly under its jurisdiction,

00:09:28.000 i.e. audiovisual and audio streaming services and social media.

00:09:33.000 And social media.

00:09:35.000 So this group supposedly standing up for cultural expressions is actually calling on the CRTC

00:09:39.000 to expand this to cover social media.

00:09:42.000 All of that quote-unquote user-generated content that Stephen Gilbeau was claiming

00:09:48.000 wasn't actually really caught up by it.

00:09:50.000 And they're now saying we need rules on social media.

00:09:54.000 Rules governing what you can tweet, what you can post.

00:09:56.000 You could follow all the people you want,

00:09:58.000 but if you don't follow enough Canadian people on your homepage,

00:10:01.000 you may not even see those you're following.

00:10:03.000 You may not even see those that you are seeking out.

00:10:07.000 So the reason I am so passionate about this is twofold.

00:10:10.000 First and foremost, I believe in free speech.

00:10:12.000 And I believe freedom of speech, as the Supreme Court of Canada has even said,

00:10:17.000 is not just about the right to speak, but it's about the right to hear.

00:10:21.000 It is about the right to hear what other people have spoken,

00:10:25.000 to read what other people have written.

00:10:27.000 Freedom of speech is not just about the rights of the utterer of speech.

00:10:31.000 It's about the rights of the receiver.

00:10:33.000 And that point has actually not really been articulated all that much in the battle over C-11,

00:10:39.000 but I think it is quite a significant one.

00:10:41.000 You all have a vested interest in my right.

00:10:44.000 Well, maybe not.

00:10:45.000 Some of you who may like the stuff I talk about have a vested interest in my right to speak my mind,

00:10:50.000 in True North's right to be on these platforms, and in True North's ability to be seen.

00:10:56.000 Look, we have a website. We have a mailing list.

00:10:58.000 We have an audience that we directly connect with and communicate with.

00:11:02.000 And we always, always get messages from people that say,

00:11:05.000 you know, I don't like YouTube. Why aren't you on Rumble?

00:11:07.000 So we set up a Rumble page.

00:11:09.000 And then we're on Rumble.

00:11:10.000 And someone says, well, I don't like Rumble. Why aren't you on BitChute? 0.96

00:11:12.000 And then we, I don't know if we have a BitChute page. 1.00

00:11:14.000 And then someone will be like, you know, why I, you know, I don't use BitChute. 1.00

00:11:17.000 Why are you not on like, you know, pork television? 0.98

00:11:19.000 I don't know.

00:11:20.000 It's just people come up with the most obscure video streaming services,

00:11:23.000 and we don't have the capacity to upload to every single one of them for,

00:11:27.000 you know, five viewers.

00:11:28.000 But there is something to the idea of diversifying where we are,

00:11:32.000 which is why we have a website.

00:11:34.000 It's why we have YouTube.

00:11:35.000 It's why we have Facebook.

00:11:36.000 It's why we have Rumble.

00:11:37.000 Now Twitter has basically rolled out the ability to have full length videos.

00:11:42.000 And I don't know what's going to happen,

00:11:44.000 but I have a feeling we may end up posting more video content on Twitter as well.

00:11:49.000 Because the whole point is that you have to be able to be nimble and adapt

00:11:53.000 when one platform takes you offline.

00:11:55.000 Because in this day and age, YouTube could say,

00:11:57.000 oh, you said that lockdowns don't work.

00:11:59.000 Here's your, you know, misinformation strike or whatever.

00:12:02.000 I was going to give an example of something else.

00:12:04.000 And then I realized by giving the example, we'll get like the strike from YouTube.

00:12:07.000 So, but this is how it works.

00:12:09.000 People get shamed into not speaking their mind with this stuff.

00:12:13.000 So we diversify and we're on all these platforms,

00:12:16.000 but what happens if all of these outlets are forced to comply with a regulation

00:12:21.000 that by design diminishes, hides,

00:12:24.000 buries content that you want to see?

00:12:27.000 Because many of you have come up to me and over the years have said,

00:12:31.000 you know, I just learned about True North.

00:12:33.000 Where have you been?

00:12:34.000 And I was like, well, we've been doing this for five years.

00:12:36.000 But people say, I just, I just saw it now.

00:12:38.000 And the reason that happens is because someone had a friend share something

00:12:42.000 or someone liked something similar to us on YouTube and saw a recommendation.

00:12:47.000 Say, you know, if you like this, you might like this guy named Harrison Faulkner.

00:12:50.000 You might like this guy named Andrew Lawton.

00:12:52.000 You might like this woman named Candace Malcolm.

00:12:54.000 And those recommendations are directly in the crosshairs under C11,

00:13:00.000 because now that is not going to be authentic.

00:13:02.000 That is going to be government manipulated.

00:13:04.000 And the stakes have never been so high for independent media.

00:13:07.000 We're not going anywhere.

00:13:08.000 We're going to make a point of communicating to all of you directly time and time again.

00:13:12.000 And I would just put in a little pitch here.

00:13:14.000 I mean, it's never been more important for you to make sure that you are not beholden

00:13:17.000 to the government regulated algorithm.

00:13:20.000 So if you're not on our mailing list, please, please, please go over to tnc.news and join it now.

00:13:25.000 Because the one thing yet that they can't control is our ability to reach out to you individually.

00:13:30.000 But with all that out of the way, I am just so excited about this next part of the show here.

00:13:36.000 As you may know, the brainchild.

00:13:38.000 True North is the brainchild of Candace Malcolm, who has been a friend of mine for years.

00:13:42.000 I used to interview her on my old radio show, and she's been on maternity leave tending to a very important role,

00:13:48.000 but has graciously agreed to sit down with me for a bit of an update on what's happening with True North

00:13:54.000 and the grand scheme of things.

00:13:56.000 And who knows what the conversation is going to do.

00:13:58.000 But it is my great pleasure to talk to Candace Malcolm.

00:14:01.000 Candace, as I just mentioned, you've been tending to a very important role in the last little while.

00:14:06.000 But thanks so much for coming on.

00:14:07.000 Thanks so much, Andrew.

00:14:08.000 It's great to be around True North people again.

00:14:10.000 Great to be on your show.

00:14:11.000 You know, it's kind of funny because right now my baby is with my mom,

00:14:14.000 and my mom is a huge Andrew Lawton Show fan.

00:14:16.000 So she's going to be watching this later.

00:14:18.000 She's going to be excited that I talked about her.

00:14:20.000 So hi, Grandma.

00:14:21.000 Thanks for babysitting.

00:14:22.000 Maybe we need to just start doing like a kid segment on the show.

00:14:24.000 Just if while she's watching, you're, you know, she's also on baby duty,

00:14:27.000 and then we get them hooked young.

00:14:29.000 But let's just first off just talk completely not related to anything else.

00:14:33.000 But how have you been?

00:14:34.000 Because I know the audience is always asking, you know, like how you are and where you are.

00:14:37.000 So we haven't like kidnapped you.

00:14:40.000 You do exist and you have a life.

00:14:41.000 So how's everything going?

00:14:42.000 I'm still here.

00:14:43.000 Yeah.

00:14:44.000 So for people who don't know much about me, I've just had my third child in the last five years.

00:14:49.000 And so most people who run a small business, which True North still is a small business,

00:14:53.000 they don't have the luxury of something like a maternity leave, right? 0.99

00:14:56.000 Maternity leave is kind of for like government bureaucrats to go and take like 18 months or two years. 1.00

00:15:01.000 And that's kind of the norm and the standard.

00:15:02.000 God bless those people.

00:15:03.000 Good for them.

00:15:04.000 I think being a mom is the most important role, especially for little kids.

00:15:07.000 But for my first two children, I didn't have as much time to spend with the kids

00:15:12.000 because there's just so much going on with True North.

00:15:14.000 Growing the organization, the news cycle never ends, as you know.

00:15:17.000 And particularly, well, actually with both, it's just interesting the way the timing worked.

00:15:21.000 Both of my children were born and then an election happened like six months later.

00:15:26.000 And so the election pulled me back into doing the Candace Welcome show, running the organization full time,

00:15:31.000 really just quarterbacking everything that was going on.

00:15:34.000 This time with my third baby Juno, she was born last summer.

00:15:38.000 And my kind of goal was to just lay low and see what happened.

00:15:41.000 You know, if there was an election that was sprung, I was probably going to come back into work.

00:15:45.000 But at this point, I'm just so pleased that we've assembled such a strong team at True North that I can kind of sit back.

00:15:51.000 I mean, don't get me wrong. I'm still there making decisions every now and then and still talking to the team on a daily or weekly basis.

00:15:58.000 But I have had the opportunity and it feels like a luxury to me to just be at home with my kids, not just the baby, but the two other ones.

00:16:06.000 Because anyone who has kids knows that when you bring a new baby into the mix, the other two, you know, they want more attention.

00:16:12.000 They want more love.

00:16:13.000 And so I've really enjoyed spending the last it's been eight months now since my daughter was born with the kids, with the family.

00:16:21.000 I kind of become a consumer of True North.

00:16:23.000 I was joking that we just hosted a True North retreat and I was joking that the only reason I know what's going on in Canada is because of your reports and True North emails.

00:16:31.000 You know, you're my only source of news and I'm really enjoying being a consumer of that.

00:16:36.000 But I think I've been great.

00:16:38.000 I've been, you know, trying to reconnect with getting back into shape, my health, eating well.

00:16:43.000 My husband and I are running in the Vancouver Marathon next weekend.

00:16:46.000 So I've been training and heading out there after this weekend.

00:16:50.000 So all said, I've been great.

00:16:52.000 And we've just hosted a True North retreat.

00:16:54.000 I feel really energized about the future of this organization.

00:16:57.000 We've got so many bright people, so many exciting up and coming journalists.

00:17:01.000 Obviously, you know, old timers like us, Andrew.

00:17:04.000 It's great to see young ones come in and even just seeing how you've grown in your platform.

00:17:11.000 I think your Twitter following is now eclipsed mine, which, you know.

00:17:15.000 Oh, I wasn't checking that.

00:17:17.000 Because I was always like saying, oh, I'm never going to catch Candace.

00:17:20.000 Yeah, but you have.

00:17:21.000 I mean, your work going to the WEF and exposing the corruption over there, the trucker convoy.

00:17:26.000 Everything you've been doing is fantastic.

00:17:28.000 And it's exciting that we have all of these young journalists in their, you know, 20s that are kind of following in our footsteps in a way.

00:17:35.000 And that True North is becoming that.

00:17:36.000 So I'm really excited.

00:17:38.000 I will be getting back into things in the coming weeks and months here.

00:17:42.000 And I'm excited at some point to relaunch the Candace Malcolm Show and get back into podcasts.

00:17:47.000 I should just say, because I know we have a lot of True North insiders that are like, wait, I wasn't invited to this retreat.

00:17:51.000 Did I miss something?

00:17:52.000 No, it was just for staff.

00:17:53.000 Don't worry.

00:17:54.000 You didn't miss anything.

00:17:55.000 But again, we run a remote operation and we have people all over the country, which I think is one of our strengths.

00:17:59.000 But there are some people that like you and I have never met in person or maybe have met once.

00:18:04.000 So it was really good to meet all the colleagues and even people that work on this show and other stuff.

00:18:09.000 And as you mentioned, you left and True North is still here.

00:18:12.000 You didn't just like log on one day and it's just, you know, this dumpster fire that has just evaporated into the ether.

00:18:17.000 So it is a testament to the people that you've cultivated and that we've all worked with here.

00:18:22.000 And the big challenges that we've seen, and this is not at all new, is that there's this hostility to independent media from the government, from the legacy media elites.

00:18:32.000 But what's interesting is that they're so decreasing in their relevance to people.

00:18:37.000 I mean, you and I have talked to people that have come up and have said like kind of what you just said, which is, you know, I only get my news from True North.

00:18:43.000 Or people that have said, you know, I've been a subscriber to the Globe and Mail and I've just cancelled and now I'm donating whatever the subscription cost is to True North a month.

00:18:51.000 And I'm curious where you think we are in this overarching story of, you know, the declining relevance of legacy media and the increasing relevance of independent media.

00:19:01.000 Well, it's interesting, Andrew, because we're here in downtown Toronto.

00:19:04.000 We're at the beautiful Albany Club. I don't know if you mentioned that in your intro, but you've got this storied library.

00:19:08.000 I told them this was my living room.

00:19:10.000 Oh.

00:19:11.000 Yeah, I mean, I love this sort of the history of this club, but just down the street is the location of the former Sun News Network,

00:19:18.000 which was supposed to be Canada's version of Fox News.

00:19:21.000 They put millions and millions of dollars into this operation and it didn't get anywhere to your point that True North still exists.

00:19:28.000 One day at Sun News Network, you just logged on to sunnewsnetwork.com and the website didn't exist anymore.ca.

00:19:33.000 Everything was gone. The organization had shut down.

00:19:36.000 And I think that that is sort of a lesson for us in media of what can happen when you try to grow too big, when you try to, when you have the wrong strategy in terms of growing.

00:19:46.000 So True North really was born out of the Trudeau government continuing to subsidize the mainstream media.

00:19:51.000 It went from, you know, a couple hundred million dollars to CBC to build out CBC.ca and have an online presence to all of a sudden bailing out all of these newspapers and having government-funded journalists.

00:20:01.000 So to the insiders, to the people who really pay attention, close attention to Canadian politics and media, that was a big red flag.

00:20:09.000 This media establishment is beholden to the government. The government is literally paying these journalists to be in operation.

00:20:16.000 And so I think that you, we captured a certain level of Canadians on, just on that, that we'll never trust the legacy media again and they're done with that.

00:20:25.000 But there's only so many, so much of the population that really pays attention at that level, right?

00:20:30.000 There's other major problems with the Canadian media, which is that they're boring, which is that they don't tell good stories, which is that it's all the same.

00:20:37.000 There's this sameness, there's this groupthink mentality.

00:20:40.000 And so I think that the reason that True North continues to grow and gain a larger audience and reach more people is because we have a different way, a different approach, a different way of looking at the country, a different way of telling stories, telling the news, different platforms that we tell these stories on.

00:20:55.000 And so to your sort of more everyday average Canadian, they're just not really getting anything from watching, you know, CTV news or reading the Globe and Mail, whereas, you know, when they're on YouTube or they're on Facebook and, you know, they see an episode of Alberta Roundtable or the Andrew Lawton Show, it's compelling, it's interesting, it's fun.

00:21:15.000 We're authentic, we're real people, we're not just sort of, you know, stiff news readers that are sitting at a desk reading a teleprompter.

00:21:23.000 No, we're telling stories and we're living, this is our life.

00:21:26.000 And I think that that new approach is much more compelling to so many Canadians.

00:21:31.000 And so I think that's a major reason why we continue to grow.

00:21:34.000 That's sort of more of our strategy is to take advantage of these newer platforms and master them while the legacy media continues to sort of struggle with their huge operations, so much overhead, really corporate, and in many ways, very out of touch with the real issues that are facing Canadians.

00:21:52.000 Well, you touched on an important point, though, about the content, because I think when new media started to become a thing more in the last 10 years,

00:22:00.000 there was this sense in the legacy media companies that the problem was just the format.

00:22:06.000 They thought the problem was, well, people need to see it on a website and not in a print newspaper, but they didn't actually evaluate the content.

00:22:13.000 And they didn't realize that the issue wasn't just the convenience of access.

00:22:17.000 The issue was that people don't like what's there.

00:22:19.000 Like the Toronto Star, I can't remember when it was, they invested millions and millions of dollars in StarTouch, which was there going to be this revolutionary tablet-based thing.

00:22:27.000 And it just, it ended up just being like a complete floppo. It was like the Betamax, basically.

00:22:32.000 Like it just, it went nowhere because people didn't like the crap they were reading. 0.90

00:22:36.000 And they like, and that's the thing, like I'm convinced that True North could have more success than the Toronto Star as a print paper because people like the product. 0.93

00:22:45.000 Now, obviously we're not doing that. Not that I know. Maybe we are doing a print operation, but very, very hipster-esque now.

00:22:50.000 But, but that's, I think the big thing here is that they have never really reevaluated the audience market fit question.

00:22:59.000 And they still try to just preach to people.

00:23:02.000 It's so true. Well, I will say I was in a coffee shop the other day and there was a physical copy of the Globe and Mail and I couldn't help pick it up and read it.

00:23:08.000 Because I'm just like nostalgic that way. I still like having a physical paper from time to time, even though I consume 99%.

00:23:14.000 Yeah. I don't like the crossword apps. I like, you know, the pen and the crossword page.

00:23:18.000 Yeah. There's some, there's something nice about having a piece of paper or to this point having beautiful books to read as opposed to, I read most of my books on Kindle.

00:23:25.000 I get most of my news from tech, but every now and then it's nice to have that throwback. But I think you're right.

00:23:31.000 I think that the problem with the media stems so much deeper than what they've really established to be their issues.

00:23:38.000 The point with StarTouch, what an incredible waste of money. I think they spent a hundred million dollars.

00:23:42.000 That's insane.

00:23:43.000 I don't, I don't know if that's exactly.

00:23:45.000 Like not that we need that buddy, but can you imagine what we would do? Like we would, we would take over the country with a hundred million ideologically.

00:23:51.000 I think so too. And again, going back, I don't mean to pick on Sun News Network and the people that were involved in that because they were,

00:23:57.000 they were leaders at the time and they had visions and unfortunately didn't work out, but the amount of money that they were spending again on overhead.

00:24:03.000 I worked at Sun News Network. I was their director of research for a little while there.

00:24:06.000 And so I saw the operation from the inside and it was very, very heavy, right?

00:24:11.000 Like we still operate like a startup. To your point, you know, we've been around for five, six years now.

00:24:15.000 We're not really new and startup-y, but we have that mentality, that lean mentality.

00:24:20.000 We all, you know, from time to time we record videos on our phone. We have a small operation.

00:24:25.000 You don't have like dozens of researchers and people working for you.

00:24:28.000 Although, you know, sometimes it seems that way because you're so knowledgeable, but, but the idea that we just really run a lean operation,

00:24:34.000 that everyone is kind of either on their own or with one, one, one helper setting things up and stuff like that.

00:24:38.000 I think, I think that that mentality is really what's helping us go.

00:24:41.000 And at the other point, you know, all these media organizations, they're all sort of based in like the, like hoity-toity part of town,

00:24:48.000 sort of elite downtown circles.

00:24:50.000 And they have a different way of thinking about the world, of looking at Canadian politics that really differs from people who come from a different walk of life,

00:24:58.000 people who live out in the suburbs or in the rural part.

00:25:00.000 We, we just had our True North retreat again for True North staff, right?

00:25:04.000 We got everyone together and we did it out in the country.

00:25:06.000 We didn't, we didn't do it in Toronto.

00:25:07.000 We did it, you know, two hours from here and we rented a farm and we kind of connected to the people who might be more likely to consume our media.

00:25:17.000 And I think it's important to get out there and see what people, how people live, what the issues they face.

00:25:22.000 As opposed to when you, when you think about the Toronto Star, Globe and Mail, even National Post, CBC, CTV, CB24.

00:25:27.000 You know, these people all live probably within like a 20 block corridor in downtown Toronto, downtown Ottawa, downtown Montreal.

00:25:34.000 And they really don't understand.

00:25:36.000 I mean, the trucker convoy really painted this picture of like how uncomfortable these sort of elites were when working class, blue collar folks showed up in their neighborhood.

00:25:45.000 They wanted them out, they felt like they were, it was a foreign insurrection.

00:25:48.000 Get them out.

00:25:49.000 And it's like, you know, these are Canadians too.

00:25:51.000 Let's, let's hear them out.

00:25:52.000 Let's, we need to be able to speak and understand with those people.

00:25:56.000 Well, even a lot of the journalists that you see in smaller town newspapers or local TV and radio stations, they're all people that are from the cities.

00:26:03.000 And that was the job they got.

00:26:04.000 They went to Ryerson or they went to Carleton.

00:26:06.000 They're from Toronto or Ottawa.

00:26:07.000 They want to get a job in Toronto and Ottawa, but the first job they come up with is this other one.

00:26:11.000 And they're not really connected to those communities.

00:26:13.000 Now there are exceptions to that, obviously, but, but there is a grand, to go back to Sun News.

00:26:18.000 One of the things Sun News always did very well was really saying that we're going to cover every election.

00:26:23.000 We're going to cover the PEI election.

00:26:24.000 It may not matter to people out, out in the country, but it matters to the country.

00:26:28.000 And I think that was something very important and true north.

00:26:31.000 I mean, obviously we, we have a small team.

00:26:32.000 We can't cover every story.

00:26:33.000 Like people will be like, why are you not covering this city council meeting in Brandon, Manitoba?

00:26:37.000 And I'm like, well, maybe there is something that we should be covering there, but we, we don't know unless people tell us.

00:26:43.000 And I think relying on our audience is so key.

00:26:47.000 And I think that's the whole thing.

00:26:48.000 Like, obviously when I'm doing my show or you're doing your show work, it's one way in that moment, mostly.

00:26:54.000 I mean, we have comments, but, but I view it as being part of a dialogue with people.

00:26:59.000 It's like, I get my best material from people that tell me what's happening in their community before I learn about it elsewhere,

00:27:05.000 because that's so key and you have to listen.

00:27:08.000 Absolutely. I mean, it's sort of, I'll just go back a little bit to my personal example.

00:27:11.000 I started out as an opinion columnist with the Toronto Sun.

00:27:14.000 That was the first time I was writing for the newspaper.

00:27:16.000 I didn't start as a reporter and then moved over to opinion.

00:27:18.000 I started at opinion.

00:27:20.000 And so what happened was I was writing kind of in-depth fact-based pieces that had an opinion slant,

00:27:25.000 but they were mostly just, this is what's happening and you might not be aware of it.

00:27:28.000 And as soon as I started taking on that immigration beat, I just got flooded with tips.

00:27:33.000 People were sending me things that were happening, this, you know, people inside the government,

00:27:37.000 people who are new Canadians, people who, you know, MPs or people who worked in MP offices,

00:27:41.000 and, or just everyday people who had a story.

00:27:44.000 And it almost became that I was more interested in reporting the news than pushing my opinion,

00:27:49.000 because I was getting so many tips and I think that's so key for journalists.

00:27:53.000 And I, it really bothers me.

00:27:55.000 I almost cringe when I see new sort of young up and coming journalists who,

00:27:59.000 you know, turn off their comments on their tweets, turn off comments on their YouTube pages.

00:28:04.000 You see this a lot with the CBC where they'll put up a controversial, you know,

00:28:08.000 ramming some woke thing down our throat and they don't want to hear about it.

00:28:11.000 They don't want to hear what the comments are.

00:28:13.000 And, you know, comment boards can be a little bit contentious.

00:28:17.000 They can be a little bit poisonous.

00:28:18.000 There's definitely your fair share of, of sort of mean comments.

00:28:21.000 But if you can get past some of the mean comments, you, you read the comments on any, any post,

00:28:27.000 any Facebook post, YouTube, whatever, you're going to get feedback, good and bad.

00:28:32.000 And it's important to get that.

00:28:33.000 Sometimes you'll get tips.

00:28:34.000 Sometimes people will say, yes, this is a big problem in my community.

00:28:37.000 You'll, you'll get a sense of whether or not you're, you're heading in the right direction,

00:28:41.000 or maybe there's something that you're missing.

00:28:43.000 It's so important to connect with the audience.

00:28:45.000 And I really, I really don't like how so many of the sort of more mainstream fantasy journalists,

00:28:49.000 they just don't want to hear.

00:28:50.000 It's like, it's like they're on a soapbox.

00:28:52.000 It's a one way communication.

00:28:54.000 They don't care what the people, the feedback is.

00:28:56.000 And when they do get the feedback, maybe they use it as like a victim.

00:29:00.000 I'm a victim.

00:29:01.000 Look at how mean people are.

00:29:02.000 Look, everybody gets their fair share of mean comments.

00:29:04.000 You put yourself out there on the internet.

00:29:05.000 People are going to comment on it.

00:29:06.000 You have to, you have to have a bit of thick skin in this industry, just in any industry.

00:29:12.000 But I do think it's very important to make sure that you're connected with the audience,

00:29:16.000 reading the comments, and just, again, understanding what the major issues are.

00:29:21.000 Canada, not the issue that you want to talk about, but the issue that's actually affecting people in this country.

00:29:26.000 Just to talk about C11 for a moment here.

00:29:29.000 I was explaining at the beginning.

00:29:31.000 I think the Senate failed Canadians.

00:29:33.000 I think the government failed Canadians.

00:29:34.000 I think the CRTC will fail Canadians here.

00:29:37.000 And I think the overarching message is that we're not folding up and going home.

00:29:40.000 I mean, we're going to fight for this.

00:29:41.000 We're going to fight for our audience, and we're going to keep going there.

00:29:43.000 But how do you run an internet news company in a climate when the government,

00:29:50.000 the very government we're trying to hold to account, says we need to regulate internet content?

00:29:55.000 I feel like we've been here before in doing this.

00:29:57.000 I mean, you remember back in that, I think it was the 2019 election when the Liberals wouldn't let you on the bus,

00:30:02.000 because they said, Ender Lawton's not a journalist.

00:30:04.000 Ender Lawton works for an advocacy organization.

00:30:06.000 And we were like, who are you to tell us what our profession is, right?

00:30:10.000 And obviously, you're a long-time radio host.

00:30:12.000 Like, the idea that you're...

00:30:13.000 Who had interviewed Justin Trudeau before?

00:30:14.000 They didn't have an interview.

00:30:15.000 I guess he came off so poorly in that interview, they never wanted to let me near him again.

00:30:18.000 Yeah, but you saw this sort of attitude, this bullying attitude that does exist within the government,

00:30:24.000 the more that they're in power, the more power corrupts them.

00:30:28.000 And that was four or five years ago now.

00:30:31.000 I think they've gotten much worse now.

00:30:32.000 We saw a recent story that the PMO was trying to contact, I think it was Twitter and Facebook,

00:30:38.000 to get a Toronto Sun story removed because they...

00:30:41.000 Yeah, Lauren Gunter, the Edmonton Sun.

00:30:42.000 Yeah, Edmonton Sun, yeah.

00:30:43.000 Because they didn't agree with one of the things that he had said about the immigration system.

00:30:47.000 So you already have an incredibly bullying prime minister's office who believes they're so self-righteous,

00:30:56.000 that they believe that they have this power and they have this right to bully and boss around the tech companies,

00:31:02.000 to tell them what Canadians can and cannot say.

00:31:04.000 It's the same mentality that told them that we can decide who is and who isn't a journalist.

00:31:09.000 So we know that they have this attitude.

00:31:11.000 And the idea that, like, we have these tech companies in Silicon Valley that are already woke, that are already left.

00:31:16.000 I mean, Twitter's getting better with Elon Musk.

00:31:18.000 But we know the people who run the individual platforms have this left-wing perspective.

00:31:26.000 The algorithm is already sometimes stacked against us.

00:31:28.000 We don't know why one YouTube video did really well and one didn't.

00:31:31.000 The idea that you would have another layer on top of that, these self-righteous liberals who believe that they are, you know,

00:31:37.000 like appointed by God to decide what Canadians can and cannot see, it's dangerous, it's scary.

00:31:42.000 And we absolutely have to unite and fight against this.

00:31:46.000 I think that we need to start reaching more people who aren't necessarily interested in the political side of things.

00:31:51.000 But they enjoy YouTube for other things, watching fitness videos, cooking videos, kids' videos, all this stuff.

00:31:56.000 It's all going to be manipulated, turning into something like a propaganda arm.

00:32:01.000 It's really a serious issue.

00:32:03.000 I don't think that we can trust this government or any government to have that kind of control.

00:32:07.000 So it's absolutely paramount, Andrew, that we continue to fight against this bill.

00:32:12.000 Well, I remember when net neutrality was the big argument in the U.S., which I won't bore people with the details,

00:32:19.000 but they haven't followed it.

00:32:20.000 Largely, it was the left that was really trying to push back against it.

00:32:23.000 And their sort of belief was that you needed government to sort of pull the levers and prevent private companies from doing things.

00:32:28.000 And I'm sort of in a very weird place on this because I don't like a lot of big tech companies.

00:32:33.000 I don't like big government.

00:32:34.000 And it's like, well, I'm kind of siding with big tech over big government.

00:32:38.000 And the worst is when the two are really operating in lockstep, which is what Bill C-11 forces.

00:32:43.000 Right.

00:32:44.000 And no, it's definitely the worst of both worlds.

00:32:46.000 And the idea that, oh, well, the free market will sort of new tech companies maybe will come up and compete.

00:32:52.000 Maybe we're kind of seeing that with Twitter and Elon kind of having a rogue kind of maverick perspective.

00:32:58.000 But I just I don't trust anyone in the prime minister's office to be making those kind of decisions.

00:33:02.000 I don't think Canadians want the government to be involved in regulating the Internet.

00:33:07.000 The whole joy of the Internet is it is the sort of place that we don't have to sit and be subject to CRTC rules.

00:33:13.000 Can you imagine if you are creating a playlist to work out and the music?

00:33:18.000 OK, play this to go.

00:33:19.000 I don't know. Go for one.

00:33:20.000 I wasn't laughing at working out.

00:33:21.000 I'm laughing at the premise.

00:33:22.000 But thank you for that.

00:33:23.000 Well, I don't know.

00:33:24.000 I don't know what you do.

00:33:25.000 You go walk your dogs or go sit in the library and read.

00:33:27.000 You're creating a playlist, Mozart and Bach.

00:33:32.000 I don't know what you listen to.

00:33:33.000 That's what I assume you do.

00:33:34.000 But and all of a sudden it's like, oh, this playlist doesn't have enough Canadian content.

00:33:39.000 You have to like insert some Canadian music in there.

00:33:42.000 Yeah. Throw some Bieber in there with your Mozart.

00:33:44.000 Yeah.

00:33:45.000 Like I just I just think that so many Canadians would cringe at that idea that they would have to do that,

00:33:50.000 that the playlist would have to have Canadian content and a heading in that direction.

00:33:54.000 It's it's not something that anyone would get behind.

00:33:58.000 I mean, I just I can't imagine who would.

00:34:00.000 So, again, we need to do everything that we can.

00:34:03.000 And it's funny, Andrew, because in some ways maybe True North would even benefit because we are a Canadian news guy.

00:34:08.000 Well, yeah, that I mean, I sort of made that point a while ago of like, you know,

00:34:11.000 I don't think the government will pass a bill that will elevate True North and Rebel and the Western Standard and stuff like that.

00:34:18.000 But in theory, we're as Canadian as it comes.

00:34:21.000 Right. But then at the same time, do you want the government?

00:34:23.000 I don't trust these government bureaucrats to be making those decisions.

00:34:26.000 And so even even if True North in an imaginary world would really benefit, say it was a Pierre Poly of government.

00:34:31.000 And he was the one saying, OK, I'm going to choose which Canadian companies get more algorithm.

00:34:35.000 It would mean that we got three times as much exposure.

00:34:37.000 I would still be opposed to it because I don't think that a government should have that power.

00:34:40.000 I don't even really know how the tech behind it would work.

00:34:43.000 It will probably make it slower and worse and sluggish.

00:34:45.000 So just this whole idea that government has to be involved in every aspect,

00:34:48.000 that government knows best that these busybody political staffers in Justin Trudeau's office get to decide what we listen to.

00:34:56.000 I think it's something that most Canadians should just by default oppose.

00:35:02.000 I don't know if the left is on the same page.

00:35:05.000 I know that every conservative I talk to is really opposed to it.

00:35:09.000 But I want people to start fighting against it.

00:35:13.000 And I am proud of the work True North is doing.

00:35:15.000 All right. Well, thank you.

00:35:16.000 Thank you so much for giving us this platform that we all get to engage on.

00:35:20.000 And thanks for coming back on the show.

00:35:22.000 I know we'll be welcoming you back in the near future, but it's always good to see you again.

00:35:25.000 Oh, thank you so much, Andrew.

00:35:26.000 It's great to be a guest on the show.

00:35:28.000 I know my mom is going to be really excited to watch the episode.

00:35:31.000 Let's get your mom on the show. 1.00

00:35:32.000 Part of our Real People series.

00:35:34.000 There you go.

00:35:35.000 Listening to the audience.

00:35:36.000 Well, I thank you so much for that.

00:35:37.000 And thank all of you for tuning in as well.

00:35:40.000 As mentioned, it's never been more important to support the work that Independent Media is doing.

00:35:44.000 And you can do that by heading over to donate.tnc.news.

00:35:47.000 Maybe this will be the living room of the Andrew Lawton Show if you donate enough.

00:35:50.000 But I assure you that's not what your money goes towards.

00:35:52.000 So thank you, all of you.

00:35:54.000 I hope you have a wonderful weekend.

00:35:55.000 We'll be back next week.

00:35:56.000 Thank you.

00:35:57.000 Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:36:00.000 Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.

Juno News - April 29, 2023

Justin Trudeau just took control of the internet (feat. Candice Malcolm)

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript