Juno News - October 22, 2021


Justin Trudeau wants a ＂just transition＂ away from Canada's energy sector


Episode Stats

Length

40 minutes

Words per Minute

197.62035

Word Count

7,989

Sentence Count

370

Misogynist Sentences

5

Hate Speech Sentences

5


Summary


Transcript

00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.
00:00:06.660 This is The Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.
00:00:12.800 Coming up, a look at Justin Trudeau's so-called just transition away from the oil and gas sector and the industry's response.
00:00:22.160 The Andrew Lawton Show starts right now.
00:00:25.700 Welcome to The Andrew Lawton Show here on True North.
00:00:31.860 It is great to have you tuned in.
00:00:33.620 We've talked a lot about some of the big picture challenges facing the oil and gas sector,
00:00:39.120 facing the energy industry more broadly,
00:00:41.360 and how many of these are not being led by markets, but are actually being led by governments.
00:00:47.000 Government directives in Canada, some global initiatives like the Great Reset
00:00:51.200 that are really trying to push a phase-out of the energy sector, of the hydrocarbon sector,
00:00:56.540 which has a huge effect specifically on Alberta, but nationally and internationally as well.
00:01:02.540 One of these initiatives has not gotten nearly the coverage it deserves.
00:01:07.060 It's quite significant.
00:01:08.100 It's called the Just Transition.
00:01:10.380 Well, justice sounds good.
00:01:11.800 There's nothing wrong with that, right?
00:01:13.580 Well, the Just Transition is extracted from the Paris Climate Agreements,
00:01:17.400 and it is ultimately a method for the government to try to push a transition away from the energy sector.
00:01:24.580 And they talk about this in terms that make it sound like a hunky-dory thing,
00:01:28.240 but the reality is they aren't talking about the things that would actually help them do this.
00:01:33.960 A lot of the initiatives and solutions that are being driven by the energy sector.
00:01:38.380 So we do things differently here on The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:01:41.220 I wanted to delve in this with a level of detail,
00:01:44.060 and I've got a great panel together.
00:01:45.900 Joining me is Danielle Smith, who's the president of the Alberta Enterprise Group,
00:01:50.920 Michael Binion, who's the founder of the Modern Miracle Network,
00:01:54.800 Apoor Sinha, who's the CEO of Carbon Upcycling,
00:01:58.360 and Kevin Crossard, who's the CEO and co-founder of Avatar Innovations.
00:02:02.960 We've got a lot of brainpower on the panel today, myself not included in that,
00:02:06.760 but thank you to all of you for joining.
00:02:08.700 It's great to have you here.
00:02:09.760 Thanks, Andrew.
00:02:11.480 Now, I want to start with you, Danielle,
00:02:13.040 because you are one of the few people in media in Canada
00:02:15.820 who's actually given some attention to the just transition.
00:02:18.660 A lot of people that I know listen to this show
00:02:20.900 who would consider themselves astute followers of the news
00:02:23.460 probably have not come across this.
00:02:25.680 Even in the course of preparing for this show,
00:02:28.240 I was not finding much out there.
00:02:30.960 Tell me what this is,
00:02:32.300 and more importantly, why has no one been talking about it?
00:02:35.120 Because it seems pretty significant.
00:02:36.780 I think it was probably by design.
00:02:39.560 It was launched in the middle of summer on July the 20th.
00:02:42.540 Then we launched right into a federal election campaign,
00:02:44.740 and they were supposed to end the consultation September 30th,
00:02:47.680 which, of course, was only a few days after the election.
00:02:50.560 They wanted to have consultation by invite only
00:02:54.260 and invited everybody else to put in their submissions.
00:02:57.020 And Michael will tell you a little bit more
00:02:58.300 about how the various industry groups
00:03:01.020 and the public responded by putting submissions in.
00:03:03.280 And I think that's the reason why it's been delayed.
00:03:05.600 But the just transition,
00:03:06.860 we have to be careful of the wording that is used here.
00:03:09.180 That's the wording that the extreme left uses
00:03:11.500 as a way of talking about phasing out fossil fuels completely.
00:03:15.880 And it's built on this faulty premise
00:03:17.840 that I've been listening to for probably a decade,
00:03:20.360 that the entire world energy system
00:03:22.800 should convert to wind and solar.
00:03:25.320 We shouldn't have natural gas heating.
00:03:27.400 We shouldn't have combustion engine vehicles.
00:03:29.680 We should simply use this intermittent power
00:03:31.660 and have battery backup
00:03:32.700 and somehow that's supposed to fuel
00:03:34.760 a modern industrial economy.
00:03:36.620 I think we've seen through movies like Planet of the Humans,
00:03:39.660 if even Michael Moore realizes
00:03:41.220 that that vision is absolutely unachievable
00:03:44.420 and that even if you look at solar panels,
00:03:47.440 which are crystalline silicon made in China
00:03:50.600 using not only Uyghur slave labor,
00:03:52.800 but also using coal-fired electricity,
00:03:55.860 solar panels are not going to be net zero
00:03:57.520 until the fossil fuel industry is net zero.
00:04:00.420 Wind farms that have cement and steel and fiberglass,
00:04:04.340 they are not going to be net zero
00:04:05.740 until all of those industries are net zero as well.
00:04:08.320 And so I think the fossil fuel industry has taken on the challenge
00:04:10.720 and they intend to be net zero before anyone else.
00:04:13.380 And I think that's the message that's not getting out
00:04:15.360 that does need to get out.
00:04:16.400 Yeah, I think you raise an important point there
00:04:19.360 because the federal government's goals
00:04:21.280 and the Paris Climate Agreement's goals
00:04:23.140 are to reduce emissions.
00:04:24.660 The idea of sending really a death warrant
00:04:28.580 to an industry to reduce emissions
00:04:30.700 misses what's supposed to be the stated purpose,
00:04:32.800 which is the actual emissions.
00:04:34.080 The government of Canada is committing to net zero.
00:04:36.500 The global community is calling for that same thing.
00:04:39.180 And there seems to be missing from this
00:04:41.140 and missing from the government's messaging on this,
00:04:43.360 the reality of looking at carbon capture
00:04:46.160 as one notable example,
00:04:47.540 something that's very industry-led
00:04:49.280 that's working towards that same outcome.
00:04:52.220 I know you've written about this, Michael,
00:04:53.740 and I know you've discussed this
00:04:54.900 with your colleagues in the hydrocarbon sector,
00:04:57.280 but what is it that the energy sector
00:04:59.820 is bringing to the table here?
00:05:01.420 And why is the government
00:05:02.560 not looking for these solutions?
00:05:05.260 I think one of the big fundamental mistakes
00:05:08.620 that's been made in the public discourse
00:05:10.400 is this idea that oil and gas has static technology,
00:05:14.940 that it's not changing.
00:05:16.100 And it's led to this comparison
00:05:17.760 of wind and solar alternatives
00:05:19.700 using 2050 technology
00:05:21.240 to oil and gas using 1999 technology.
00:05:23.760 And of course, that becomes a simple decision.
00:05:26.620 But the fact of the matter is
00:05:27.720 that while costs of wind, solar, and wind
00:05:29.520 has been falling rapidly,
00:05:31.040 so has the cost of reaching net zero for oil and gas.
00:05:34.700 And I published an article that I think you saw,
00:05:37.600 that I actually think that once the industry
00:05:40.620 puts its mind to it, and it has,
00:05:42.820 that the industry can win the race to net zero.
00:05:46.380 And so that means we don't have to be this choice
00:05:48.700 between two extreme choices of business as usual,
00:05:51.400 don't worry, the climate's not as bad as you think,
00:05:53.680 or just transition,
00:05:55.860 we have to leave it in the ground,
00:05:57.340 but everybody needs to lose their jobs
00:05:59.760 to save the climate.
00:06:01.020 Those are the two extreme choices.
00:06:02.540 There's a third option.
00:06:03.460 And that third option, I think,
00:06:05.500 is with new carbon technology,
00:06:06.940 which is advancing rapidly.
00:06:08.260 Some of the people after me here
00:06:10.580 are going to talk to that.
00:06:12.540 And what I like to call the three R's,
00:06:14.400 which we're all familiar with.
00:06:15.260 We can reduce emissions.
00:06:16.640 We can reuse and recycle those emissions
00:06:19.080 into products as a feedstock,
00:06:20.480 and we can return it under the ground.
00:06:22.440 And using those three R's that everybody understands,
00:06:24.720 we have this third option
00:06:25.760 of an energy transformation.
00:06:26.880 And then just to answer,
00:06:30.020 and that energy transformation,
00:06:31.560 I think then allows us to have that mid,
00:06:33.880 all of the above solution
00:06:36.260 between those two extremes.
00:06:37.820 And I just want to quickly address
00:06:38.820 what Danielle was talking about,
00:06:40.440 you know, in terms of the consultation
00:06:42.240 and the,
00:06:43.760 there was 20,000 submissions
00:06:45.740 saying we've got concerns
00:06:47.880 about the fact that you haven't looked
00:06:49.160 at this third option.
00:06:50.640 And, you know,
00:06:51.140 I know there's some people talking about,
00:06:52.240 oh, well,
00:06:52.400 that was just industry stuffing.
00:06:53.700 Less than 20% of it came from CAPS Energy Citizens.
00:06:57.260 More than 80% of those 20,000 submissions
00:06:59.940 came from groups at large.
00:07:02.200 So I think that the government is missing
00:07:04.620 that people would rather see this third option.
00:07:08.420 And then finally just say,
00:07:09.600 you know,
00:07:09.780 $10 billion announcement by Dow Chemical
00:07:11.480 in Alberta for zero emissions ethylene.
00:07:14.480 I mean,
00:07:14.680 there's some proof points
00:07:15.700 of what Forbes and BBC in the UK talked about.
00:07:19.480 This is a potentially trillion dollar
00:07:21.060 emerging market.
00:07:21.740 Yeah, let's talk to some of the players
00:07:24.380 who are in that market.
00:07:25.880 Apoor, I know that carbon gets a bad rap.
00:07:28.560 A lot of people are told it's the bad guy
00:07:31.240 and we're not supposed to be doing anything
00:07:32.740 that unleashes it into the atmosphere.
00:07:34.780 What's carbon upcycling?
00:07:38.100 Really, Andrew,
00:07:39.040 I think, you know,
00:07:40.180 when we use the word upcycling in our name,
00:07:42.520 there wasn't a huge amount of recognition
00:07:44.140 as to how that was different from recycling.
00:07:46.460 But really the idea here
00:07:47.480 is to give carbon a second life
00:07:49.320 that is actually more meaningful
00:07:51.060 and useful for society
00:07:52.280 than in the first go-around.
00:07:53.880 So upcycling a plastic bottle
00:07:55.320 would be to use that plastic
00:07:57.200 in sustainable packaging
00:07:58.540 or some other kind of form
00:08:00.260 where it adds more value
00:08:02.300 than it did in its first go-around.
00:08:04.120 I think with carbon,
00:08:05.300 I, you know,
00:08:06.040 agree with a lot of what's been said.
00:08:07.920 I think the challenge
00:08:09.600 and the opportunity right now
00:08:11.260 when it comes to carbon emissions
00:08:12.420 is finding some ways of upcycling it, right?
00:08:15.860 Like, so there are ways
00:08:16.660 where CO2 can actually be
00:08:18.020 more than a pollutant.
00:08:19.140 Like Buckminster Fuller
00:08:20.040 talked about how pollution is
00:08:21.280 basically a waste
00:08:22.320 that hasn't found a purpose yet.
00:08:23.880 And we think in some ways,
00:08:25.580 in an aspirational way,
00:08:26.700 we think that there is a segment
00:08:27.900 of carbon emissions today
00:08:29.240 that can be used
00:08:30.440 to make better materials,
00:08:32.020 whether it be in plastics
00:08:32.900 or construction materials
00:08:34.180 or even energy storage applications.
00:08:36.740 But I think the bigger point here is,
00:08:38.760 and I think some of the kind of nuances here
00:08:41.840 that they get lost
00:08:42.720 in the public dialogue
00:08:43.880 is that ultimately,
00:08:45.320 if you think about CO2,
00:08:46.940 it really is a sink
00:08:48.380 for every single human activity.
00:08:50.700 And not just our activity,
00:08:52.020 it's for agricultural activity,
00:08:53.500 like, you know,
00:08:54.040 all the way down to emissions
00:08:54.940 from cows and things like that.
00:08:56.180 So, you know,
00:08:57.620 there is no potential market
00:08:59.940 which is going to take
00:09:01.300 all of this CO2 and upcycle it.
00:09:02.880 And I think there needs
00:09:03.540 to be a recognition
00:09:04.180 that some of these,
00:09:05.640 you know,
00:09:06.100 if we're going to close
00:09:07.100 this loop entirely,
00:09:07.860 some of these methods
00:09:08.800 are only going to be
00:09:09.440 a piece of the solution
00:09:10.680 and that recycling
00:09:12.140 some of these emissions
00:09:13.000 is actually going to be
00:09:13.800 a major chunk
00:09:14.440 of how we solve this.
00:09:15.780 And I think within that scope,
00:09:17.400 there is a realization
00:09:18.680 that carbon recycling
00:09:20.320 is as much,
00:09:21.540 you know,
00:09:21.780 an important part
00:09:22.560 of the solution
00:09:23.040 as upcycling.
00:09:24.000 I think the energy sector
00:09:25.060 has a massive amount
00:09:26.080 of expertise and knowledge
00:09:27.160 that we can leverage
00:09:27.800 towards that.
00:09:28.740 I mean,
00:09:28.940 no one knows
00:09:29.480 how to build bigger
00:09:30.300 and scale faster
00:09:32.040 than the energy sector
00:09:32.920 has done since the 60s.
00:09:34.100 And I think,
00:09:34.960 you know,
00:09:35.200 to that end,
00:09:35.820 I think,
00:09:36.260 you know,
00:09:36.500 some of the efforts
00:09:37.140 like Kevin and his team
00:09:38.280 at Avatar,
00:09:39.240 I think are really important
00:09:40.420 because,
00:09:40.960 you know,
00:09:41.360 instead of getting
00:09:41.880 into this polarized debate,
00:09:43.120 I think the real question here
00:09:45.160 is can we get
00:09:45.900 to the same table
00:09:46.620 and say these are all
00:09:47.980 the different parts
00:09:48.580 of the solution
00:09:49.120 where,
00:09:49.620 you know,
00:09:50.260 companies like us
00:09:51.080 and initiatives
00:09:51.720 from oil science companies
00:09:53.200 and others
00:09:53.580 can all contribute
00:09:54.500 in a positive way.
00:09:55.380 Yeah,
00:09:56.660 I'm glad you gave
00:09:57.500 Kevin a plug here
00:09:58.500 because I was going
00:09:59.120 to go to Kevin
00:09:59.680 across sort of Avatar
00:10:00.800 next on this.
00:10:02.220 Kevin,
00:10:02.540 your firm
00:10:03.180 has not only found
00:10:04.660 ways to connect
00:10:05.700 different players
00:10:06.360 and innovate new ideas,
00:10:07.840 but you've also found
00:10:08.780 there's a significant
00:10:09.600 amount of capital
00:10:10.580 behind driving
00:10:11.820 some of these ideas.
00:10:12.700 Again,
00:10:13.100 not coming from carbon taxes,
00:10:14.440 not coming from government,
00:10:15.660 but coming from
00:10:16.660 the industry itself.
00:10:18.980 Yeah,
00:10:19.200 well,
00:10:19.400 thanks,
00:10:20.080 Porv,
00:10:20.340 and I would have given him
00:10:21.260 an equally good shout out
00:10:22.560 as well.
00:10:23.060 It's a pleasure
00:10:23.800 working with them
00:10:24.580 and being on a panel
00:10:25.380 with these great thinkers.
00:10:27.640 But yeah,
00:10:27.960 so Avatar was really
00:10:28.860 born around the idea
00:10:30.140 that we can't
00:10:33.020 electrify everything
00:10:34.040 and there are many sectors
00:10:35.560 that are nearly impossible
00:10:37.040 to decarbonize
00:10:38.060 and the most rational
00:10:39.580 solutions that exist
00:10:40.660 to decarbonize
00:10:41.500 the sectors
00:10:41.980 that are most difficult
00:10:43.120 to decarbonize,
00:10:44.100 whether it's concrete
00:10:45.260 like before I was talking
00:10:46.080 about or fertilizer
00:10:47.620 or heavy industry
00:10:48.820 or steel,
00:10:50.220 these solutions
00:10:50.860 already exist
00:10:51.660 and they exist
00:10:53.100 inside oil and gas,
00:10:54.660 whether that is
00:10:55.340 carbon capture
00:10:56.080 or hydrogen
00:10:57.220 or geothermal
00:10:58.660 or long duration storage.
00:11:01.020 These are things
00:11:01.700 the oil and gas sector
00:11:02.520 has been already doing.
00:11:04.520 So the world's decided
00:11:05.980 it wants to decarbonize.
00:11:07.580 Capital markets have decided
00:11:08.880 they want to decarbonize.
00:11:10.340 That's where the smart money
00:11:11.320 is going.
00:11:12.000 And so how do we unlock
00:11:13.400 those solutions
00:11:14.060 inside oil and gas
00:11:15.060 for commercialization,
00:11:16.300 scale and export?
00:11:17.600 And we've been,
00:11:18.400 you know,
00:11:18.640 really delighted
00:11:19.380 to have the work
00:11:21.020 that we have.
00:11:22.220 And yeah,
00:11:23.260 so, you know,
00:11:24.020 it's no secret
00:11:25.340 that capital markets
00:11:26.380 are, you know,
00:11:27.260 putting a lot of levers
00:11:28.460 on, you know,
00:11:29.880 the investment community
00:11:31.100 to be investing
00:11:31.880 in decarbonization initiatives.
00:11:33.640 As a result,
00:11:34.520 the cost of capital
00:11:35.340 inside oil and gas
00:11:36.340 has risen pretty dramatically.
00:11:39.240 Whereas in the clean tech sector,
00:11:41.220 the cost of capital,
00:11:42.680 the, you know,
00:11:43.100 cost it's going to take
00:11:43.920 to invest in a project
00:11:44.820 to get it done
00:11:45.360 is dramatically lower.
00:11:47.200 But if we have
00:11:47.880 all of these solutions
00:11:48.700 inside oil and gas
00:11:49.620 that can meaningfully
00:11:50.740 make impacts
00:11:51.380 on emissions change,
00:11:52.820 how do we create
00:11:53.740 what rational investment
00:11:55.000 policies are going
00:11:55.740 to be doing
00:11:56.240 and widen the funnel
00:11:57.920 and create a lot
00:11:58.760 of new ideas?
00:11:59.700 So, you know,
00:12:01.220 I would,
00:12:01.760 I would agree with this,
00:12:02.940 you know,
00:12:03.180 and the other piece
00:12:04.740 of the puzzle
00:12:05.240 is that this,
00:12:05.940 you know,
00:12:06.160 a complex issue
00:12:07.600 in the sense that,
00:12:08.560 you know,
00:12:08.960 I use the word
00:12:10.040 energy transition,
00:12:11.400 not because I mean
00:12:12.100 we're transitioning
00:12:12.660 off of oil and gas,
00:12:13.920 but because we have
00:12:15.440 a skeptical public
00:12:16.260 who doesn't trust us.
00:12:17.720 And if they can see industry
00:12:19.680 as a meaningful
00:12:20.520 and powerful partner
00:12:21.680 in the planet's
00:12:22.740 climate ambitions,
00:12:24.040 you're going to have
00:12:24.720 a much different conversation
00:12:25.840 than we're trying to,
00:12:27.340 we're trying to,
00:12:28.080 we're trying to fool you again
00:12:29.520 is how I think
00:12:31.420 energy transformation
00:12:32.220 sometimes comes off.
00:12:33.320 But I know there's,
00:12:34.300 there's,
00:12:34.620 there's good debates
00:12:35.380 on both sides.
00:12:36.780 But I was on a call
00:12:37.540 yesterday with Europe
00:12:38.340 and in Egypt,
00:12:40.380 they just built a gigawatt
00:12:42.200 solar power factory
00:12:43.760 and, you know,
00:12:44.600 huge success.
00:12:45.480 They thought they had,
00:12:46.240 you know,
00:12:46.540 built and unlocked
00:12:47.360 all of these financial
00:12:48.620 instruments.
00:12:49.580 This just transition,
00:12:50.720 according to the Paris Accord,
00:12:51.740 isn't just the sort of
00:12:53.240 worker retraining piece,
00:12:54.480 it's also the bringing power
00:12:55.700 to the developing world
00:12:56.680 that doesn't have access
00:12:57.460 to basic electricity.
00:12:59.160 So they thought
00:12:59.900 this solar panel factory
00:13:01.360 was going to be a huge success.
00:13:02.820 They can't replicate
00:13:03.900 the financing for it now
00:13:05.220 because 50% of the polysilicate
00:13:08.020 in the world
00:13:08.840 that builds solar panels
00:13:10.440 comes from the Xinjiang
00:13:11.900 province in China
00:13:13.320 where the Uyghurs
00:13:14.120 have forced labor.
00:13:15.660 So these levers
00:13:16.500 of investments
00:13:18.160 that should be driving,
00:13:20.040 who's against a solar factory
00:13:21.520 in Egypt?
00:13:22.140 Probably nobody.
00:13:24.160 That these are complex issues
00:13:25.900 that we have to be looking at
00:13:27.460 as a rational investment basis
00:13:29.560 to be able to drive
00:13:30.460 real investment
00:13:31.180 and real jobs
00:13:31.960 around the world.
00:13:32.820 And that's, you know,
00:13:34.200 I think the exciting opportunity
00:13:35.580 that energy transition
00:13:37.640 or transformation,
00:13:38.720 whatever you want
00:13:39.280 to call it, has.
00:13:41.020 I want to go back to you
00:13:42.220 on this for a moment, Michael,
00:13:43.480 because what we've just heard
00:13:44.660 from Kevin,
00:13:45.720 what we've heard
00:13:46.180 from Apoor,
00:13:46.700 these are great
00:13:47.780 industry success stories,
00:13:49.280 they're great
00:13:49.620 Canadian success stories,
00:13:51.100 but when you look
00:13:51.940 at the government's
00:13:53.060 guidance document,
00:13:54.340 just to go back
00:13:54.920 to the just transition
00:13:55.820 for a moment,
00:13:56.660 this guidance document
00:13:57.740 doesn't reference at all
00:13:59.340 carbon capture,
00:14:00.440 carbon utilization,
00:14:01.560 carbon storage.
00:14:02.240 So we're back to
00:14:03.780 why are these
00:14:05.060 very real solutions
00:14:06.420 not being given
00:14:07.480 any weight
00:14:08.560 in what is supposed
00:14:09.620 to be a national
00:14:10.740 and I would hope
00:14:11.500 an industry-inclusive
00:14:12.620 discussion?
00:14:14.520 Yeah, well,
00:14:14.920 it's interesting
00:14:15.480 that places,
00:14:17.120 the International Energy
00:14:18.280 Agency
00:14:18.720 is maybe no surprise
00:14:19.900 that they're talking
00:14:20.540 about carbon capture,
00:14:21.560 but so is the World Economic Forum,
00:14:23.700 which we know
00:14:24.100 has been a big proponent
00:14:25.060 of the Great Reset.
00:14:26.060 and even people
00:14:27.500 like the United Nations
00:14:28.480 and these organizations
00:14:30.080 are talking about
00:14:30.640 that we're not going
00:14:31.840 to meet our targets.
00:14:33.160 We have to include
00:14:34.500 a carbon capture
00:14:35.780 and the Dunsky report
00:14:36.740 just came out in Quebec,
00:14:37.760 which is close to my heart
00:14:39.680 and they've talked about
00:14:41.660 we need these carbon capture solutions.
00:14:44.380 So you're absolutely right.
00:14:45.660 It's interesting
00:14:46.480 that the just transition
00:14:48.240 from our federal government
00:14:49.420 just presumes
00:14:51.320 we're going to have
00:14:52.560 to pick between
00:14:53.180 business as usual
00:14:54.100 and a full
00:14:54.860 leave-it-in-the-ground approach.
00:14:57.280 And so why aren't they
00:14:59.800 like some of these
00:15:00.600 other international agencies
00:15:01.960 saying,
00:15:02.740 well, maybe we need
00:15:03.280 a third option.
00:15:05.660 And I would say
00:15:06.540 that Alberta
00:15:08.040 and Western Canada
00:15:09.420 and our industry
00:15:10.400 is more and more
00:15:11.660 all in on this idea
00:15:12.820 of let's look
00:15:13.460 at this third option.
00:15:14.180 And you're right,
00:15:14.760 wasn't considered
00:15:15.340 in the election,
00:15:16.360 isn't being considered
00:15:17.200 in this just transition
00:15:18.120 to the consultation.
00:15:20.020 You pointed out
00:15:21.100 just to lay some
00:15:22.000 of the political groundwork
00:15:23.080 here, Danielle,
00:15:23.860 and in a column
00:15:24.480 you wrote about this,
00:15:25.460 a letter signed
00:15:26.600 by a bunch of
00:15:27.220 the usual suspects
00:15:28.160 who are very much
00:15:29.400 against the fossil fuel sector
00:15:30.980 and don't want
00:15:31.860 the industry involved.
00:15:33.280 And they don't think
00:15:34.320 that carbon capture
00:15:35.880 and carbon storage
00:15:36.960 have a role in this at all.
00:15:38.560 And I want to quote
00:15:39.220 from this letter
00:15:39.880 they sent to Canadian MPs
00:15:41.580 because carbon capture
00:15:42.940 is, quote,
00:15:43.560 at odds with a just
00:15:44.940 energy transition
00:15:45.860 and the principles
00:15:47.240 of environmental justice.
00:15:49.420 Explain this.
00:15:50.820 What does that mean?
00:15:52.060 Well, if I could,
00:15:52.920 I would.
00:15:53.480 I think what is interesting
00:15:54.520 is that letter came out
00:15:55.800 the day before
00:15:57.260 they launched
00:15:58.100 the just transition
00:15:59.220 consultation.
00:16:00.760 And that doesn't happen
00:16:01.860 by accident.
00:16:02.960 There was a full court press,
00:16:04.640 I think,
00:16:05.220 to try to get
00:16:06.060 the environmental community
00:16:07.560 that has a fairly extreme view
00:16:09.060 of the only energy sources
00:16:10.380 we should be allowed
00:16:11.140 to use to participate
00:16:12.260 in this consultation
00:16:13.620 to get the foregone conclusion.
00:16:15.600 That's what I think
00:16:16.160 was going on.
00:16:17.300 But I think it's been derailed
00:16:18.980 for a lot of the reasons
00:16:20.040 that Michael has just suggested.
00:16:21.880 There's some pragmatism
00:16:24.100 that is setting in here.
00:16:25.180 I've talked to many members now,
00:16:27.020 surprisingly,
00:16:28.320 from the environmental community
00:16:30.600 who in the past
00:16:31.620 you might have thought
00:16:32.380 would be hostile
00:16:33.100 to the energy sector,
00:16:34.920 the traditional hydrocarbon sector,
00:16:36.460 who realized
00:16:37.240 that the only way
00:16:38.420 to meet the international targets
00:16:40.300 is to use carbon capture
00:16:42.120 utilization and storage,
00:16:43.600 is to look at hydrogen.
00:16:45.560 The most efficient way
00:16:46.500 of creating hydrogen
00:16:47.760 is through natural gas,
00:16:49.780 looking at LNG exports
00:16:51.720 to reduce the reliance
00:16:52.960 on coal-fired electricity.
00:16:54.780 So there is, I think,
00:16:56.580 a growing pragmatism
00:16:57.820 and a split
00:16:58.460 in the environmental movement
00:16:59.620 from those who really want
00:17:01.660 to solve this problem
00:17:03.080 versus those who just want
00:17:04.780 to kill the fossil fuel industry.
00:17:06.960 And I don't know
00:17:07.300 if I know all the reasons why.
00:17:09.000 Maybe it's because
00:17:09.720 the energy sector
00:17:10.500 has traditionally been
00:17:12.360 extremely well-funded.
00:17:15.020 Maybe it has been a bit,
00:17:16.620 as Kevin put it,
00:17:17.740 they kind of dragged their feet
00:17:19.180 and not embrace the challenge
00:17:21.740 in a fulsome way.
00:17:23.360 But something happened
00:17:24.240 that was quite,
00:17:24.980 I think, quite dramatic
00:17:26.300 is that when Justin Trudeau
00:17:28.100 set a target of $170
00:17:30.380 for a price on carbon,
00:17:32.540 I think that was a wake-up moment
00:17:34.400 for the industry.
00:17:35.280 And they sat back and thought,
00:17:36.620 hmm, why would I just sit here passively
00:17:38.660 and spend $170 a tonne in tax?
00:17:42.060 Why don't I find a creative way
00:17:43.400 to turn this into a feedstock?
00:17:45.480 And once you've made
00:17:46.200 that mental transformation
00:17:47.600 that CO2 is not a pollutant,
00:17:51.660 but it's a feedstock
00:17:52.540 for useful products,
00:17:53.580 or it's something
00:17:54.340 you can monetize
00:17:55.400 if you find a way
00:17:56.100 to bury it underground,
00:17:57.380 I think that that has unlocked
00:17:58.860 a whole amount
00:18:00.040 of entrepreneurial investment
00:18:01.460 and creative thinking
00:18:02.500 that the federal government
00:18:04.020 and the environmental movement
00:18:05.120 quite frankly
00:18:05.900 hasn't caught up with yet.
00:18:07.660 Well, let me ask you then,
00:18:08.920 Apoorv,
00:18:09.140 what has been,
00:18:10.040 in your experience,
00:18:10.820 the driving force
00:18:11.800 behind a lot of the capital
00:18:13.640 and a lot of the corporate interest
00:18:15.340 in this?
00:18:15.680 Is it coming from
00:18:16.500 a genuine desire
00:18:17.820 to sort of reduce the impact,
00:18:20.340 or is it coming from,
00:18:21.720 as Danielle's comment
00:18:23.340 kind of suggests,
00:18:24.380 oh my goodness,
00:18:24.940 we don't want to be
00:18:25.620 on the hook for this
00:18:26.280 with how carbon taxes
00:18:27.220 are going up?
00:18:28.880 Yeah, I mean,
00:18:29.660 there was a few different things
00:18:30.940 said there
00:18:31.340 that I had some visceral
00:18:33.620 responses to, I guess,
00:18:34.600 and I think what Danielle
00:18:36.320 said there
00:18:36.960 is exactly right.
00:18:38.660 I couldn't agree more
00:18:39.480 about the power of the signal
00:18:41.360 with that announcement
00:18:42.780 about the tax
00:18:43.800 and, you know, again,
00:18:44.980 I tend to be realistic
00:18:46.700 about these things
00:18:47.380 and I don't know
00:18:48.300 how feasible it is
00:18:49.180 that Canada will have
00:18:49.920 a $170 a ton carbon tax
00:18:52.180 and, you know,
00:18:52.960 while Singapore and the UK
00:18:54.400 and others
00:18:55.020 are going to get away
00:18:55.600 with $5 to $10 a ton.
00:18:57.920 And maybe the UK
00:18:58.860 wasn't a great example
00:18:59.640 because they're actually
00:19:00.180 trying to be progressive,
00:19:01.160 but there are definitely
00:19:02.400 segments in Europe
00:19:03.220 which are, you know,
00:19:04.420 further behind
00:19:04.960 some of the more progressive
00:19:05.920 kind of narrative
00:19:07.020 that we see on the news.
00:19:08.000 And I think what's important here
00:19:09.480 is to realize that,
00:19:10.980 you know,
00:19:11.880 everyone's kind of looking
00:19:12.660 for different pieces here
00:19:14.200 in terms of validating
00:19:15.460 what they're doing, right?
00:19:16.240 Like the energy sector,
00:19:17.140 I think, again,
00:19:18.340 I agree with Danielle.
00:19:19.160 I think they've been slow
00:19:20.060 on the uptake
00:19:20.580 maybe at the start
00:19:21.260 and maybe they're still paying
00:19:22.340 kind of a disproportionate price
00:19:23.920 for that,
00:19:24.640 but I think they're absolutely
00:19:25.640 a part of the short-term
00:19:26.940 solution here.
00:19:27.920 And I think the government,
00:19:29.960 frankly,
00:19:30.740 needs to realize
00:19:31.580 that major announcements
00:19:33.160 and major kind of funding
00:19:35.320 announcements in particular
00:19:36.300 doesn't necessarily
00:19:37.380 solve the problem.
00:19:38.220 I mean,
00:19:38.360 there's a lot of really hard work
00:19:40.320 that has to be done
00:19:41.020 by very competent people
00:19:42.280 and by very competent groups
00:19:43.640 of people
00:19:44.440 that have to come together
00:19:45.340 from very different backgrounds.
00:19:47.340 And I think there is
00:19:48.080 a notion right now on the,
00:19:49.920 you know,
00:19:50.140 and I don't want to get
00:19:50.780 political at all
00:19:51.420 because that's not my domain,
00:19:52.640 but there is a progressive arm
00:19:54.700 that thinks that
00:19:55.300 all that we need is money.
00:19:57.140 And I think that is absolutely
00:19:58.220 the wrong way to look at this
00:19:59.360 because there are many,
00:20:01.220 many ways
00:20:01.840 to spend money badly.
00:20:03.300 And I think what is happening
00:20:04.260 right now
00:20:04.780 is there are ways
00:20:06.360 where people
00:20:07.320 are chasing announcements.
00:20:08.580 I think even
00:20:09.100 with private capital,
00:20:10.480 like I can speak about this
00:20:11.720 from a carbon tech perspective.
00:20:13.300 I think there are many companies
00:20:14.520 that have talked about
00:20:16.360 not generating revenue
00:20:17.420 for four, five, six years,
00:20:18.800 and they're getting
00:20:20.660 very significant valuations
00:20:22.360 that have actually got
00:20:23.740 some people in the industry
00:20:24.720 talking about how this might be
00:20:26.200 the second clean tech bust
00:20:27.620 in a couple of years.
00:20:28.800 And frankly,
00:20:29.720 regardless of whether you agree
00:20:31.000 with how important,
00:20:32.100 you know,
00:20:32.320 that priority is or not,
00:20:34.040 I think everyone will agree
00:20:35.520 that no one is going to be better off
00:20:37.660 if this crashes in two years
00:20:38.860 because there was a whole
00:20:39.800 bunch of false dawns.
00:20:41.380 And so, you know,
00:20:42.440 I think the last thing
00:20:43.440 I'll say on this
00:20:44.180 from my perspective
00:20:45.620 as an entrepreneur
00:20:46.180 is, you know,
00:20:47.160 look at what the hard facts are
00:20:48.540 and I think the government
00:20:49.780 needs to stop sitting on the fence
00:20:51.760 and actually pick winners.
00:20:52.800 I know there's this big Canadian
00:20:54.560 kind of, I guess,
00:20:56.940 reticence to pick winners, right?
00:20:58.740 Like, and I think that needs to stop
00:21:00.100 because there are only
00:21:00.980 a handful of companies, frankly,
00:21:02.940 that are going to make
00:21:03.640 a meaningful impact in this.
00:21:04.960 Like, imagine if instead of Ford,
00:21:06.800 you had 10 other companies
00:21:07.840 that the U.S. government
00:21:08.600 and all the U.S. industry
00:21:10.460 was trying to support at that time.
00:21:12.100 I mean, you know,
00:21:12.980 would all 10 have succeeded
00:21:14.120 the way Ford did?
00:21:14.940 I don't think it's possible, right?
00:21:16.800 And so I'll just finish
00:21:18.060 by saying that
00:21:18.740 there are certain metrics
00:21:20.800 about, you know,
00:21:21.540 commercial uptake,
00:21:23.020 you know,
00:21:23.340 the amount of validation
00:21:25.100 you've been able to achieve,
00:21:26.120 the kind of traction
00:21:26.820 you're getting with real customers.
00:21:28.860 And these are things
00:21:29.760 that frankly right now,
00:21:31.060 whether it be private capital
00:21:32.120 or government capital,
00:21:33.420 I don't think that,
00:21:34.220 you know,
00:21:34.380 there's a kind of a skewed lens
00:21:35.920 in which this is being looked at.
00:21:37.120 Like they're saying,
00:21:37.920 oh, this is a no-brainer.
00:21:38.780 This is going to work in three years.
00:21:40.360 But the fact is that,
00:21:41.340 you know,
00:21:41.680 out of this basket of 20 or 30 things
00:21:43.600 that you might be looking at,
00:21:44.660 there's only two or three
00:21:45.460 that are really going to work.
00:21:46.460 And there are sometimes
00:21:48.380 very obvious signs
00:21:49.240 as to what those are.
00:21:50.240 And I think I would just urge
00:21:51.720 not just government
00:21:52.460 and policymakers,
00:21:53.300 but even the private capital folks
00:21:54.600 to pay more attention to that.
00:21:56.080 Because at this point,
00:21:57.620 you know,
00:21:57.840 just a sense of urgency
00:21:58.920 is making them kind of spray,
00:22:01.260 you know,
00:22:01.700 spaghetti on the wall.
00:22:02.520 And that's not necessarily
00:22:03.860 the best approach.
00:22:05.360 Now, I think that's a wise warning.
00:22:07.640 And if I shift this for a moment
00:22:09.520 to government funding,
00:22:11.220 which I think is a useful proxy
00:22:12.980 for government priorities
00:22:14.080 in some cases,
00:22:15.140 I would ask you, Kevin,
00:22:16.340 I mean,
00:22:16.560 where is the government's interest in this?
00:22:19.780 Because I know for years now,
00:22:21.460 especially I'm in Ontario,
00:22:22.460 we've heard about the importance
00:22:24.040 of spending billions
00:22:24.960 and billions of dollars
00:22:25.960 on renewable energy
00:22:27.060 and, you know,
00:22:27.940 solar power,
00:22:28.880 wind power,
00:22:29.480 all of these things.
00:22:30.220 And there's been so much
00:22:31.160 of an emphasis on that
00:22:32.300 but that doesn't really solve
00:22:34.620 the underlying existence
00:22:36.660 of the fossil fuel sector,
00:22:38.100 which they do want to,
00:22:39.400 as we know,
00:22:39.840 phase out from.
00:22:40.960 Why have they not been trying
00:22:42.660 to assist the industry
00:22:44.080 in making this sector better?
00:22:45.840 I know the Canadian Association
00:22:47.500 of Petroleum Producers,
00:22:48.640 for example,
00:22:49.220 came out and asked for the government
00:22:51.200 to come up with basically
00:22:52.540 a tax credit system
00:22:53.740 similar to what the steel industry
00:22:55.120 has been given.
00:22:56.040 But at this point,
00:22:56.760 there's not really been
00:22:57.480 any uptake on that.
00:22:59.620 Yeah, there's a lot there.
00:23:02.300 I guess to unpack.
00:23:03.500 But, you know,
00:23:03.940 what I will say first
00:23:05.020 and foremost is that
00:23:05.960 I agree with Apoor 100%.
00:23:07.540 There is a lot of bad ways
00:23:09.160 for the government
00:23:09.640 to spend money.
00:23:10.960 And if government
00:23:13.000 is going to be putting
00:23:13.920 public money
00:23:14.680 into energy transition,
00:23:17.140 transformation,
00:23:17.920 whatever have you,
00:23:18.860 it singularly has to be
00:23:20.420 serving something
00:23:21.440 the market isn't
00:23:22.180 currently delivering.
00:23:23.880 And that's not a way
00:23:25.160 a lot of the funding
00:23:26.140 is being doled out.
00:23:29.080 And I think to Apoor's point,
00:23:31.000 I don't know if
00:23:31.620 the government
00:23:32.740 should be picking winners.
00:23:34.120 I think that the government
00:23:35.580 needs to drop its mentality
00:23:36.940 of anybody that's actually
00:23:38.540 going to make money
00:23:39.180 will dole money out too.
00:23:42.440 So Avatar has put 270
00:23:44.380 oil and gas professionals
00:23:46.160 from 67 oil and gas companies
00:23:49.440 in eight provinces
00:23:50.760 generating 45 industry-driven
00:23:53.180 energy transition solutions,
00:23:55.160 generated seven companies.
00:23:56.380 we've never received
00:23:57.660 a cent of money
00:23:58.680 from public funding.
00:24:00.060 And we're proud of that.
00:24:00.840 We're very proud of that
00:24:01.680 because you know
00:24:02.640 what the industry is saying.
00:24:03.560 They're saying,
00:24:03.980 we think this is important,
00:24:05.540 so let's go.
00:24:06.400 So we're going to put our money
00:24:07.160 where our mouth is.
00:24:08.480 However, there is a whole
00:24:09.600 bunch of money
00:24:10.080 that's going into
00:24:10.900 a lot of not-for-profits
00:24:12.140 that are speaking
00:24:13.920 on these just transition issues.
00:24:16.440 And what results
00:24:18.140 are they delivering?
00:24:19.460 And have they created
00:24:20.160 these albatrosses
00:24:21.280 that nobody knows
00:24:22.560 what to do with?
00:24:23.140 And I think that there
00:24:23.900 is a lot of that.
00:24:26.080 The money is coming
00:24:27.120 to the table
00:24:27.860 in ridiculous ways.
00:24:30.660 Even the announcement
00:24:31.320 today by TransCanada
00:24:32.420 and Nicola Hydrogen.
00:24:34.560 You know,
00:24:34.760 there is huge capital
00:24:37.320 that's kind of coming
00:24:37.940 to the table here.
00:24:39.140 So the role government
00:24:40.040 needs to be thinking about
00:24:41.240 is how can it focus
00:24:43.140 on the areas of the market
00:24:44.660 that are currently
00:24:45.240 being underserved?
00:24:46.380 And I have some ideas on that.
00:24:48.100 I think it's seed stage
00:24:49.240 risk capital.
00:24:50.580 There's all of these
00:24:51.520 government grants
00:24:52.360 at the $50,000,
00:24:53.600 $100,000 levels
00:24:54.600 for new technologies.
00:24:56.100 And then there's
00:24:56.500 all this private equity
00:24:57.440 at $10 million investments.
00:24:59.400 There's not a lot
00:25:00.080 in the middle
00:25:00.460 and that's the gap
00:25:01.000 avatar is filling right now.
00:25:02.780 But we, you know,
00:25:04.120 what is the role
00:25:04.900 the government
00:25:05.260 could be playing
00:25:06.220 that you singularly
00:25:07.640 drive investments
00:25:08.440 and returns?
00:25:09.780 You know,
00:25:10.380 nobody knows,
00:25:12.000 most people agree
00:25:13.200 that we're getting to,
00:25:14.040 we have to get rid
00:25:14.600 of carbon emissions.
00:25:16.060 Now the question
00:25:16.860 needs to be
00:25:17.560 what's the cheapest
00:25:18.440 and most effective way
00:25:20.160 to get there?
00:25:21.020 And that's the role
00:25:21.800 the conservatives
00:25:22.400 need to be playing
00:25:23.140 in this
00:25:23.440 and where I think
00:25:24.020 good conservative policy is.
00:25:26.040 And that's going to be
00:25:26.560 a market-driven approach.
00:25:28.080 So that's, I think,
00:25:29.340 that's, I think,
00:25:29.920 where the big opportunity
00:25:30.780 is and the big excitement
00:25:31.800 is in this area.
00:25:33.420 Is this isn't about
00:25:34.440 retraining $150,000
00:25:36.460 a year petroleum engineers
00:25:37.980 to become baristas
00:25:39.320 at Starbucks.
00:25:40.420 This is about realizing
00:25:42.400 that it's really easy
00:25:43.480 to probably take
00:25:44.140 a petroleum reservoir engineer
00:25:45.420 and turn them
00:25:45.960 into a carbon sequestration
00:25:47.280 reservoir engineer
00:25:48.220 because there's
00:25:49.320 an opportunity there
00:25:50.100 and there's money there.
00:25:51.000 That's the conversation
00:25:51.780 we should be having.
00:25:53.260 Not, how do we win at this?
00:25:55.660 Not, how do we make it
00:25:57.020 as least painful
00:25:57.760 as possible?
00:25:59.000 Which is the conversation
00:25:59.920 they're trying to have right now.
00:26:01.360 So let's take a step back here
00:26:03.020 and accept for a moment
00:26:04.480 the government's goal
00:26:06.140 of reducing carbon emissions
00:26:07.720 by 40 to 45%.
00:26:09.600 So let's take the politics
00:26:10.820 out of this
00:26:11.380 and where I think
00:26:12.240 a lot of us
00:26:12.680 could probably have
00:26:13.280 a very vigorous debate
00:26:14.900 about whether that's a reasonable
00:26:16.040 or realistic goal.
00:26:17.040 That's the government's goal.
00:26:18.520 The best way to get there,
00:26:20.660 can it be done
00:26:21.780 through all of these mechanisms
00:26:23.240 that we've just been talking about?
00:26:24.500 I don't know who wants
00:26:25.000 to jump in on this,
00:26:25.880 but can these industry-led solutions
00:26:28.000 meet that?
00:26:28.800 And if not,
00:26:29.580 how much of that
00:26:30.600 could they meet?
00:26:31.640 And let me jump in.
00:26:32.640 I know because I have
00:26:33.860 one example
00:26:34.960 that I can give you
00:26:35.760 just to show you
00:26:36.540 the power
00:26:37.100 and the incredible capacity
00:26:38.760 we have for poor space.
00:26:40.940 So I know of a single company
00:26:42.400 at a single site
00:26:43.700 that used to have
00:26:44.440 deep gas wells.
00:26:45.460 They've done,
00:26:46.080 and they have a compressor
00:26:46.780 at the site.
00:26:47.560 So they've done their analysis.
00:26:49.220 They believe that they can bury
00:26:50.460 80 megatons of CO2.
00:26:55.080 Now, what is that?
00:26:56.360 Well, we produce
00:26:57.200 270 megatons a year
00:26:59.400 of CO2 in Alberta
00:27:00.320 and 740 megatons
00:27:01.880 in the entire country
00:27:03.140 in a year.
00:27:03.680 If that is one single site
00:27:05.940 from one single company.
00:27:07.900 And one third
00:27:08.400 of Alberta's output.
00:27:09.760 It's extraordinary.
00:27:12.040 So to me,
00:27:12.860 the issue of carbon capture
00:27:14.640 utilization and storage,
00:27:15.640 storage is immensely powerful.
00:27:17.780 To the point,
00:27:18.940 I think,
00:27:19.240 that Approve was making
00:27:20.860 is that there will only be a,
00:27:22.900 I don't know how
00:27:23.880 they try to rationalize
00:27:25.880 which projects
00:27:27.000 are most likely
00:27:27.780 to be successful
00:27:28.700 from the utilization
00:27:29.560 point of view.
00:27:30.600 But I can say
00:27:31.240 from the storage point of view,
00:27:32.520 all government needs to do
00:27:33.380 is get out of the way.
00:27:34.260 We don't even have a policy yet
00:27:35.620 for how you get permission
00:27:37.380 to bury CO2 underground.
00:27:38.920 We don't have a royalty structure.
00:27:41.200 There should be a price
00:27:42.160 that goes on the CO2
00:27:43.420 once it goes back
00:27:44.360 into the ground as well.
00:27:45.380 They haven't developed that.
00:27:46.460 So I think what I'm observing
00:27:47.800 is government is actually
00:27:49.620 lagging behind industry on this.
00:27:52.240 And we need to create
00:27:53.120 some framework
00:27:53.800 so that those companies
00:27:55.120 that are able to go ahead
00:27:56.360 without government support
00:27:57.560 have a clear path to do it.
00:27:59.340 Maybe you then have
00:28:00.040 a broader conversation
00:28:01.000 with the big five
00:28:01.900 that wants some significant
00:28:03.780 tax breaks
00:28:04.680 for their carbon trunk line
00:28:06.940 and sequestration project
00:28:08.320 they're going to do
00:28:09.020 in Cold Lake.
00:28:10.020 And then maybe there's
00:28:10.700 also additional conversations
00:28:11.920 that you have
00:28:12.440 about what the most
00:28:13.200 optimistic options are
00:28:15.680 for transforming
00:28:16.600 those into products.
00:28:17.520 But I would say
00:28:18.240 you let the market work first.
00:28:20.040 Let those innovators
00:28:20.960 keep on going,
00:28:22.160 stay out of their way
00:28:22.940 and try not to stop them
00:28:24.280 with government policy.
00:28:26.180 I'd like to just add
00:28:27.140 to Danielle's point
00:28:27.960 with a shameless plug
00:28:28.820 for my own company,
00:28:29.740 if I could, Andrew,
00:28:30.480 which is that
00:28:31.000 we've got a gas discovery
00:28:32.520 in Quebec,
00:28:33.300 which we...
00:28:33.700 This is Questair,
00:28:34.900 not Modern Miracle.
00:28:36.260 Exactly, but it's where
00:28:37.700 I get paid to work.
00:28:39.260 And we've got a project there
00:28:41.760 where we've...
00:28:43.500 And this is really
00:28:44.480 where I came to realize
00:28:45.600 that people were looking
00:28:46.380 at our technology
00:28:47.100 as being older than it is.
00:28:48.620 But we can produce
00:28:49.580 the actual gas there
00:28:50.540 in the conventional way
00:28:51.660 and it can be used
00:28:52.700 in an industrial park
00:28:53.480 or whatever
00:28:53.900 and then be emitted
00:28:55.380 into the air.
00:28:55.960 But we realized,
00:28:56.560 well, we could put
00:28:56.980 two pipelines in the ground
00:28:58.060 for not much more money
00:28:58.940 than one
00:28:59.380 because you already
00:28:59.940 got the ditch there.
00:29:01.000 Bring a CO2 line back.
00:29:02.260 We've got carbon
00:29:02.940 storage reservoirs
00:29:03.920 right underneath
00:29:04.680 where the gas is.
00:29:06.240 So we could make
00:29:06.700 a literal circle
00:29:07.480 where we say,
00:29:08.040 well, we'll send you the gas
00:29:08.960 and then just like
00:29:10.000 so many other products,
00:29:11.280 I'll take, you know,
00:29:11.900 like I'll sell you
00:29:12.780 a can of Coke,
00:29:13.340 I'll take the can back
00:29:14.160 when you're done, right?
00:29:15.000 But we'll sell you
00:29:16.100 the natural gas,
00:29:16.920 we'll take the CO2 back.
00:29:18.440 And in addition to that,
00:29:19.700 which is already
00:29:20.380 zero emissions production
00:29:21.660 and zero emissions consumption,
00:29:23.820 100% zero emissions
00:29:25.220 for natural gas.
00:29:26.460 I don't know
00:29:27.100 that wind and solar
00:29:27.740 can match that,
00:29:28.440 to be honest.
00:29:29.260 On top of that,
00:29:30.140 what we really would like to do
00:29:31.260 and we talk, you know,
00:29:32.020 how we met people
00:29:33.040 like APRA visit,
00:29:34.580 we'd really like
00:29:35.420 to also look at
00:29:36.160 the opportunities
00:29:36.700 to take some
00:29:37.140 of that captured carbon
00:29:38.100 and turn it
00:29:38.600 into useful things
00:29:39.660 because,
00:29:41.580 as Daniel pointed out,
00:29:43.400 what opened my eyes
00:29:44.500 was when somebody
00:29:45.240 in Quebec told me,
00:29:46.080 I'll pay you $140
00:29:47.560 a tonne
00:29:48.400 for a carbon credit.
00:29:49.640 I went,
00:29:49.900 yo, what?
00:29:51.520 That's as much money
00:29:52.460 as I get
00:29:52.820 for the natural gas.
00:29:53.760 So then that opened my eyes
00:29:56.460 to, well,
00:29:56.760 then why don't we
00:29:57.560 take that $140
00:29:58.480 and turn it
00:29:59.540 into a cement additive
00:30:00.540 with the group
00:30:01.580 like with carbon upcycling?
00:30:02.980 Why wouldn't we do that?
00:30:04.040 We can make money
00:30:05.020 doing that, right?
00:30:06.040 So that's what
00:30:06.740 really opened my eyes.
00:30:07.780 So I was saying
00:30:08.600 to my daughter,
00:30:09.240 you know,
00:30:09.360 this organic chemistry
00:30:10.260 has been understood
00:30:10.900 for a long time.
00:30:11.900 We probably could have done
00:30:12.720 this 20 years ago.
00:30:13.600 She says,
00:30:13.840 well, then why haven't we been?
00:30:15.320 I said,
00:30:15.660 well, there was never,
00:30:17.040 it's just like the can of Coke.
00:30:18.400 We never used to recycle
00:30:19.300 those when I was a kid
00:30:20.060 either until they put
00:30:20.680 a deposit on it, right?
00:30:21.540 She says,
00:30:21.980 oh, so I guess that means
00:30:22.920 carbon taxes are good,
00:30:23.900 right, Dad?
00:30:24.260 I said,
00:30:24.480 well, let's end
00:30:24.960 the conversation here then.
00:30:27.900 And she's not coming
00:30:28.720 to Thanksgiving anymore, right?
00:30:30.180 No, I'm still going
00:30:31.240 to invite her to Thanksgiving.
00:30:32.340 She didn't need
00:30:33.380 to be so right on that point.
00:30:35.280 I know you don't want
00:30:36.420 to get into politics before,
00:30:38.200 so I hope you'll indulge
00:30:39.260 the question nonetheless.
00:30:40.700 If it is this simple
00:30:42.400 and it is something
00:30:43.540 that the industry
00:30:44.220 could be doing without ease,
00:30:45.860 why has there not been
00:30:48.080 a push to the government
00:30:48.920 or perhaps there have been
00:30:49.960 of just, you know,
00:30:50.580 just back off for a year
00:30:51.640 and see what we can do?
00:30:52.900 I mean, the numbers
00:30:53.520 that Danielle gave,
00:30:54.440 I'm assuming,
00:30:55.320 are not unfamiliar to you
00:30:57.060 about how much
00:30:57.940 the industry could do
00:30:58.780 if it were just
00:30:59.580 to take this over, basically.
00:31:02.220 Well, I think it boils down
00:31:03.880 to just simple
00:31:05.200 kind of incentives, right?
00:31:06.660 And I think, you know,
00:31:07.660 Michael hit the nail on the head.
00:31:09.280 I think ultimately
00:31:10.320 there is a cost
00:31:12.160 to changing anything.
00:31:13.800 And I think that's
00:31:14.380 one of the things
00:31:14.940 where, you know,
00:31:15.580 one of, I guess,
00:31:16.660 the realizations
00:31:17.200 that we've had
00:31:17.880 and I've had as a CEO
00:31:18.840 of a startup
00:31:19.480 is, you know,
00:31:20.460 when we go out
00:31:21.200 and pitch for a government grant,
00:31:23.160 the audience
00:31:23.720 that we're dealing with
00:31:24.400 is very different
00:31:25.080 from when we talk
00:31:26.580 to the CEO
00:31:27.160 of a large construction company.
00:31:29.160 And then when we go out
00:31:29.960 to the quality control people
00:31:31.080 and the guys
00:31:31.500 that are actually running
00:31:32.220 the trucks
00:31:32.580 and managing the day-to-day
00:31:33.600 at that company,
00:31:34.740 again, very different audience, right?
00:31:36.940 And then we talk
00:31:37.780 to the EPC companies,
00:31:38.740 then we talk to the architects
00:31:39.640 and the city procurement people.
00:31:41.000 And you'll see, you know,
00:31:42.240 like there are a couple
00:31:42.960 of cities in Alberta
00:31:43.720 that have declared
00:31:44.300 climate emergencies
00:31:45.100 and you go out
00:31:46.720 to their procurement people
00:31:47.480 and say, hey,
00:31:48.040 like this is a sustainable product.
00:31:49.800 It's pretty much
00:31:50.240 the same price
00:31:50.780 as what you're paying,
00:31:51.420 maybe 2% more
00:31:52.440 or something like that.
00:31:53.440 Are you interested?
00:31:54.200 And they say, well,
00:31:54.900 you know,
00:31:55.120 we don't really know
00:31:55.880 how to do this
00:31:56.480 and like this is new stuff
00:31:58.420 and we've got all the data,
00:31:59.460 but we've never really
00:32:00.360 tried anything.
00:32:00.940 Like in my 25 years
00:32:02.840 of work in this space,
00:32:04.220 like they have no precedence
00:32:05.920 to fall back to.
00:32:07.040 And I think what ends up happening,
00:32:08.240 I think, Andrew,
00:32:08.760 is there is such
00:32:10.020 a massive disconnect.
00:32:11.200 Like we all work
00:32:11.880 in our circles
00:32:12.520 and no one's actually
00:32:13.500 going out and meeting
00:32:14.180 these people
00:32:14.620 that aren't seeing
00:32:15.300 the other kind of rough edges
00:32:16.840 of how change happens.
00:32:18.380 So I think my answer
00:32:20.100 to why this is slower,
00:32:21.440 I think is, you know,
00:32:22.900 can we put a short-term
00:32:24.760 kind of credible incentive
00:32:26.540 that people can rely on
00:32:27.920 and let the market
00:32:29.600 do its work, right?
00:32:30.860 Because when you do
00:32:31.520 that signaling,
00:32:32.640 I think to Danielle's point
00:32:34.080 and Michael's and Kevin's,
00:32:35.040 like I think the government
00:32:35.920 will be shocked
00:32:37.860 as are most people
00:32:39.060 by the speed
00:32:39.960 at which change can happen.
00:32:41.040 But I think what is happening
00:32:42.620 right now,
00:32:43.120 and I'll say this
00:32:43.640 for major corporates
00:32:44.460 that we deal with,
00:32:45.400 a lot of them just have to say,
00:32:46.520 we'll be net zero by 2050.
00:32:48.080 I'll be gone.
00:32:49.260 You know, I'll be retired
00:32:50.080 and sitting somewhere
00:32:51.080 20 years before that happens.
00:32:52.580 But I might as well
00:32:53.340 put this in
00:32:53.820 because every one
00:32:54.360 of my competitors
00:32:54.960 has done it.
00:32:55.880 And some of the guys
00:32:56.620 that have gone further
00:32:57.700 have said we'll have a target
00:32:59.480 of 20, 30, 40% reduction
00:33:01.120 by 2030.
00:33:02.140 Now that's still eight years away.
00:33:03.500 I mean, any of us
00:33:04.300 that have held a corporate job
00:33:05.620 or any job of any kind
00:33:06.820 know that a lot changes
00:33:08.240 in your career
00:33:08.880 in eight years.
00:33:10.540 So it's a person
00:33:11.360 who's sitting there
00:33:12.040 making that decision
00:33:12.800 for their successor
00:33:13.880 and they can wash their hands off
00:33:15.420 and walk away from it.
00:33:16.460 And I think that's where
00:33:17.220 the urgency needs to be instilled
00:33:18.940 by the policymakers
00:33:20.280 and the governments
00:33:20.940 to say, look,
00:33:21.940 that's not good enough.
00:33:22.900 Let's set a target
00:33:23.520 for 2024, 2025.
00:33:25.260 And I think, you know,
00:33:26.340 the energy sector
00:33:27.040 has already showed
00:33:27.740 that, you know,
00:33:28.680 when that happens,
00:33:30.100 when there is an urgency
00:33:32.140 to change behavior,
00:33:32.960 because that is the way
00:33:34.020 to stay not just relevant,
00:33:35.460 but actually competitive.
00:33:36.560 And to Kevin's words,
00:33:37.700 win instead of just
00:33:38.480 being scared of losing.
00:33:40.120 Everyone will move.
00:33:41.160 And we're seeing this
00:33:41.780 in construction.
00:33:42.440 We're seeing this
00:33:42.920 with oil and gas.
00:33:43.980 And I think that's,
00:33:44.680 you know,
00:33:44.820 if you can move
00:33:45.500 large organizations
00:33:46.620 and industries like that,
00:33:48.440 there is no reason
00:33:49.220 why smaller industries
00:33:50.040 won't follow.
00:33:50.660 And I think that would be
00:33:51.680 the missing piece.
00:33:52.940 Instill that sense of urgency.
00:33:54.820 Force.
00:33:55.360 If you force every company
00:33:56.520 in Canada,
00:33:57.180 which is 200 employees
00:33:58.220 or more,
00:33:58.980 to have a 2025 goal
00:34:00.740 and start meaningfully
00:34:01.920 moving towards that,
00:34:03.080 I can promise you
00:34:03.920 the rate of change
00:34:04.640 and the rate of frustration
00:34:05.620 that you're maybe seeing here
00:34:06.860 would be quite different
00:34:08.140 in like a year's time.
00:34:09.600 But right now,
00:34:10.240 you can just say 2030
00:34:10.980 and you're fine.
00:34:12.980 Yeah, you're right.
00:34:14.220 We are on this side
00:34:16.240 of the discussion.
00:34:17.000 They're expected
00:34:17.560 to have a lot more
00:34:18.480 in the way of a concrete path
00:34:19.880 and a concrete roadmap
00:34:20.860 than the people
00:34:22.160 on the net zero side are
00:34:23.780 when they can just sort of
00:34:24.600 put these numbers out
00:34:25.640 and not really have to
00:34:27.360 have a solution
00:34:28.380 for how to get there.
00:34:29.660 Let me go to you, Kevin,
00:34:30.580 as we wind down here.
00:34:31.780 I know that there are,
00:34:32.800 as far as carbon removal
00:34:33.900 is concerned.
00:34:34.560 There are firms in Germany
00:34:35.800 that are doing some great work,
00:34:37.120 Singapore, the US.
00:34:38.740 How is Canada
00:34:39.820 in the competition here?
00:34:41.440 I mean, how is Canada
00:34:42.240 ranking and Canadian firms
00:34:44.420 and Canadian companies
00:34:45.640 in the global landscape
00:34:47.440 of players
00:34:48.260 that are in this space?
00:34:49.940 I'd say a close second,
00:34:51.880 but if Avatar
00:34:52.840 has anything to do with it,
00:34:54.040 we'll be number one
00:34:54.800 here pretty quick.
00:34:56.020 So, you know,
00:34:57.380 yes, this morning,
00:34:58.200 actually,
00:34:58.460 we just released
00:34:59.060 an announcement
00:34:59.960 that Avatar
00:35:00.740 has admitted
00:35:01.440 10 global companies
00:35:03.080 into an accelerator process
00:35:04.820 to compete for
00:35:05.840 Elon Musk's
00:35:06.980 $100 million
00:35:07.520 carbon removal X price.
00:35:09.780 So those are companies
00:35:10.440 from, as you mentioned,
00:35:11.380 Signaport, Germany,
00:35:12.580 and four from the United States.
00:35:14.740 The reason they want
00:35:15.720 to come to Calgary
00:35:16.720 and to Canada
00:35:17.500 is because we have
00:35:18.420 a world-leading
00:35:19.060 carbon technology
00:35:20.120 ecosystem and research.
00:35:22.420 We've partnered
00:35:22.840 with the University of Calgary.
00:35:24.760 The University of Calgary
00:35:25.880 born Carbon Engineering,
00:35:27.400 which is the largest
00:35:28.260 carbon removal company
00:35:29.400 in the world currently,
00:35:30.600 the Bill Gates
00:35:31.300 and Chevron
00:35:31.980 and Oxy Petroleum.
00:35:33.080 have invested
00:35:34.020 almost a billion dollars
00:35:35.240 in.
00:35:36.060 This is a race
00:35:36.740 we can win.
00:35:38.200 We have one of the
00:35:39.220 teams that actually
00:35:40.700 is Calgary-based
00:35:41.720 that we admitted
00:35:42.660 one of their founders
00:35:43.740 is one of the
00:35:44.960 employee number two
00:35:46.260 at Carbon Engineering.
00:35:49.220 Calgary and Canada
00:35:50.180 become Silicon Valley
00:35:51.360 of carbon.
00:35:52.400 And the next race
00:35:53.940 is going to be
00:35:54.460 around the carbon molecule.
00:35:55.800 And to finish on
00:35:56.340 Taurus's point,
00:35:57.320 the reason we're slow
00:35:58.060 to this is the hydrocarbon
00:35:59.000 is a really effective
00:36:00.320 energy storage molecule.
00:36:02.100 And CO2 is a really
00:36:03.900 tricky molecule
00:36:04.640 to manage.
00:36:05.820 But we've got all the tools
00:36:06.760 we've got to be able
00:36:07.400 to do this.
00:36:07.860 And I think this is going
00:36:08.560 to be the single biggest
00:36:09.580 investment opportunity
00:36:10.560 of our generation.
00:36:12.360 Let's go to Michael here
00:36:13.600 because I know that
00:36:14.640 the anti-hydrocarbon
00:36:16.260 narrative on this
00:36:17.780 is that carbon capture,
00:36:19.340 carbon storage,
00:36:20.220 these things
00:36:20.840 are dangerous,
00:36:22.200 they say,
00:36:22.640 because they prolong
00:36:23.440 the reliance
00:36:24.360 on fossil fuels.
00:36:25.720 The part of this
00:36:26.760 that I'm missing
00:36:27.340 is, well,
00:36:27.920 if we have fossil fuels
00:36:29.180 continuing to be used
00:36:30.280 and we also have
00:36:31.480 at the same time
00:36:32.160 these mechanisms
00:36:32.840 that eliminate
00:36:33.620 the negatives of that,
00:36:35.420 why is that a problem?
00:36:37.440 And I think the simple
00:36:38.740 answer is because
00:36:40.040 I think the problem
00:36:41.700 is not that
00:36:42.260 government should pick winners.
00:36:44.100 I think the problem
00:36:44.680 with just transition
00:36:45.440 is that they actually
00:36:46.080 are picking the winner.
00:36:47.100 They've decided
00:36:47.720 it's going to be
00:36:48.280 wind and solar.
00:36:49.220 And by the way,
00:36:49.700 I think there's 100%
00:36:50.800 a place for wind and solar
00:36:51.760 in our energy diet,
00:36:52.820 but they're picking it
00:36:53.840 as the solution.
00:36:55.520 And so, of course,
00:36:56.520 anybody who says,
00:36:57.020 well, I've now got
00:36:58.320 an opportunity
00:36:58.840 to have zero emissions
00:37:00.280 of oil and gas,
00:37:01.280 people aren't thinking
00:37:02.060 about, oh, well,
00:37:02.740 I guess that solves
00:37:03.400 the problem.
00:37:03.840 What they're saying
00:37:04.240 is, well,
00:37:04.460 that's slowing down
00:37:05.220 the transition
00:37:07.120 to our mandated solution.
00:37:10.520 So it's a government
00:37:11.440 picking winner's problem
00:37:12.380 if, as Danielle said,
00:37:13.920 the government
00:37:14.100 would just get out
00:37:14.700 of the way.
00:37:15.500 I mean, I would say
00:37:16.120 after your, you know,
00:37:16.940 2025 is way too far away.
00:37:18.960 I've been offered
00:37:19.440 140 bucks a ton.
00:37:20.640 If the Quebec government
00:37:21.460 would get out of my way,
00:37:22.320 we'd be doing it tomorrow.
00:37:24.680 Danielle,
00:37:25.260 I'll give you
00:37:25.500 the final word on this.
00:37:27.020 Man, I thought
00:37:27.720 Kevin had the mic drop moments.
00:37:29.120 I'm going to have to see
00:37:29.760 if I can do anything
00:37:30.740 better than that.
00:37:31.680 But one of the things
00:37:32.420 I would say is that
00:37:33.860 even if we all move
00:37:35.880 to zero emissions vehicle,
00:37:37.780 we still need asphalt
00:37:38.780 to drive,
00:37:39.540 to create roads
00:37:40.400 to drive on.
00:37:41.520 And so I think
00:37:42.060 that we're seeing
00:37:42.780 a transformation
00:37:43.580 in how we use bitumen
00:37:45.020 as well.
00:37:45.780 I can foresee a future
00:37:47.080 where we don't use
00:37:48.380 bitumen for combustion
00:37:49.280 at all,
00:37:49.920 that we find mechanisms.
00:37:51.440 And I know one company
00:37:52.320 that's already working on it
00:37:53.480 to inject the CO2
00:37:54.800 back into the bitumen,
00:37:56.180 split out the fines
00:37:57.280 and then use the bitumen
00:37:58.520 not only for asphalt
00:37:59.840 but also for construction materials.
00:38:01.420 If you look at carbon fiber,
00:38:02.860 carbon nanofiber,
00:38:04.220 it has properties
00:38:05.660 that might allow it
00:38:06.920 to be a better building material
00:38:08.540 than steel.
00:38:09.720 And if you can imagine that,
00:38:11.080 that we become the center
00:38:12.060 not only for hydrogen,
00:38:13.220 not only for CO2,
00:38:15.140 not only for all
00:38:16.140 the wonderful projects
00:38:17.160 that a purpose going to make,
00:38:18.440 but then also find a way
00:38:20.220 to use bitumen
00:38:21.220 to create these brand new
00:38:22.780 building construction materials,
00:38:24.000 the sky's the limit.
00:38:25.160 I just think that there
00:38:25.840 is immense opportunity
00:38:26.980 on all hydrocarbons
00:38:28.160 and that's the point.
00:38:29.280 If we're not shooting
00:38:30.580 carbon dioxide
00:38:31.500 into the atmosphere,
00:38:32.640 it shouldn't matter
00:38:33.640 that we're still continuing
00:38:34.580 to use it as a feedstock.
00:38:36.360 And I think that that's
00:38:37.020 the future we're moving
00:38:37.800 towards in Alberta.
00:38:39.420 Very well said.
00:38:40.600 Danielle Smith,
00:38:41.240 president of the Alberta
00:38:42.380 Enterprise Group,
00:38:43.320 Michael Binion,
00:38:43.960 founder of the
00:38:44.620 Modern Miracle Network,
00:38:46.120 Apoor Sinha,
00:38:46.920 CEO of Carbon Cycling,
00:38:48.840 and Kevin Crossert,
00:38:49.900 CEO and co-founder
00:38:51.020 of Avatar Innovations.
00:38:52.500 It's been a very informative
00:38:54.080 discussion for me
00:38:54.940 and I trust for the audience
00:38:56.060 as well.
00:38:56.480 So thank you to you all
00:38:57.260 for coming on.
00:38:58.160 It was a pleasure.
00:38:59.080 Thank you.
00:39:00.080 Thanks.
00:39:01.240 Thanks.
00:39:02.360 Well, that was fantastic.
00:39:03.680 And not me.
00:39:04.220 They were the fantastic ones.
00:39:05.800 I was just along for the ride.
00:39:07.460 I, you know,
00:39:07.920 I'm not a science person.
00:39:09.300 I understand a lot of the themes.
00:39:10.820 I certainly understand
00:39:11.540 the politics.
00:39:12.460 And I was nervous
00:39:13.600 going into that.
00:39:14.440 I'm like, oh,
00:39:14.720 they're just going to blow me
00:39:15.560 out of the water
00:39:16.140 with the technical stuff.
00:39:17.280 But I thought they did
00:39:18.020 a fantastic job
00:39:19.040 at really explaining this.
00:39:21.060 And the whole point is,
00:39:22.320 I almost believe the government,
00:39:24.360 I actually,
00:39:24.760 I do believe that
00:39:25.480 the government's approach
00:39:26.360 to this is to use science
00:39:28.900 as sort of a trump card.
00:39:30.480 You know,
00:39:30.960 it's we're talking
00:39:31.480 about the climate.
00:39:32.100 We're talking about science.
00:39:32.960 You can't disagree with us,
00:39:34.080 but we've just heard
00:39:35.080 from people that know
00:39:35.760 the science just as well.
00:39:36.940 In fact,
00:39:37.200 I'd say better
00:39:37.980 than most federal lawmakers
00:39:39.340 that are talking about
00:39:40.580 all the things
00:39:41.140 the industry is doing.
00:39:42.260 And they have a very simple
00:39:43.800 ask from the government.
00:39:45.060 Get out of our way.
00:39:46.380 They're not looking for money.
00:39:47.460 They're just looking
00:39:48.340 for the space
00:39:49.180 to do these things
00:39:50.400 that will align
00:39:51.280 with what the government
00:39:52.260 says are its objectives.
00:39:54.380 The question we're left with
00:39:55.540 is whether those are
00:39:56.360 the genuine objectives.
00:39:57.940 And it's looking like
00:39:58.860 they may not be.
00:39:59.840 And that's perhaps
00:40:00.740 why they aren't interested
00:40:01.800 in the oil and gas sector
00:40:03.400 solutions to it.
00:40:04.320 But we'll have more
00:40:05.180 to say on that
00:40:05.900 as the weeks and months
00:40:06.980 progress, I guarantee you.
00:40:08.440 Thanks to you all
00:40:08.980 for tuning in.
00:40:09.620 We'll be back next week
00:40:10.760 with more of Canada's
00:40:11.780 most irreverent talk show.
00:40:13.580 This is the Andrew Lawton
00:40:14.400 Show on True North.
00:40:15.320 Thank you, God bless,
00:40:16.680 and good day to you all.
00:40:18.280 Thanks for listening
00:40:18.920 to the Andrew Lawton Show.
00:40:20.440 Support the program
00:40:21.160 by donating to True North
00:40:22.400 at www.tnc.news.