00:30:22.840well it's actually the same note sorry mr clark
00:30:31.640keep scrolling down until you see february 6th
00:30:34.680yeah there we go so fed says p.m february 6 6 to 8 p.m so i i assume this is a meeting that was
00:30:47.880with the prime minister attended by as it says here the clerk the nsia and then john janice jody
00:30:54.920sam that would be john broadhead mr broadhead janice is the clerk jody jomas the nsia
00:31:02.520sam who's who's sam sam cleel is the director of issues management okay and there were probably
00:31:08.440a few other people on that call not many more i'm confident katie was on that call
00:31:14.040okay so if we just scroll down then uh until we see ops trying to reduce violence or taking some
00:31:21.400steps um and then below that coots persists but traffic is moving a b this is alberta asked for
00:31:29.960rfa we don't see caf uh canadian armed forces being able to help with that do you remember who
00:31:36.920was making that statement there is this the the nsia's update there mr claire so one to situate
00:31:43.400this conversation this was sunday february 6th in the evening so the end of the second weekend
00:31:47.960prime minister was updated just as he was updated the previous sunday because a second weekend had
00:31:53.560passed and ottawa had worsened and other situations were were becoming more difficult as well and i
00:32:01.320note the nsa reported that 11 bc community communities have protests 35 across the country
00:32:08.760so i i can't tell from the notes if that comment was jody thomas's comment of the one you asked
00:32:15.960about but it looks like it was part of a list of updates from jody thomas were these briefings
00:32:21.960happening daily there were multiple conversations happening daily at this point
00:32:29.320and there were interactions with the prime minister every day at this point in some way or another
00:32:34.040but this specific construct of a meeting with the clerk national security intelligence advisor and
00:32:39.640staff didn't happen every day but it happened with increasing frequency okay um so the next point
00:32:45.320that we want to look at here is is right at the bottom of the page here on that's a reference to
00:32:51.880ontario pushed back and then uh the notation is pm established list of mandates i can't read the
00:33:00.520next word something vaccines jim's vaccines all provincial okay and then under that it says dm
00:33:08.520for solgen so that would be deputy minister deputy solicitor general pushed back um and that takes
00:33:14.760us to an issue that we canvassed a bit here in the commission so far and i'd like to get your
00:33:20.440perspective on this afternoon which is what was going on in those early days of the protest the
00:33:26.360first week and first week and a half in terms of interaction between various levels of government
00:33:32.600and the federal and provincial aspects and especially uh ontario's response or or perhaps
00:33:38.600lack of response if we can characterize it that way mr broadhead i believe this is probably best
00:33:43.720put to you within your purview sure i can start and then um folks can add in um so i would i would
00:33:51.880say there was uh lots of conversations happening at this point with various governments at the
00:33:59.160officials level at the political level across the country as as we tried to make sure we were
00:34:06.280hearing from them on what was happening on the ground uh and making sure we had those that that
00:34:12.200intelligence um i think with respect to ontario specifically i think there there was at the uh
00:34:19.720outset um a different approach to uh to this uh um to the strategy uh and i i think as we get to
00:34:31.160we were quite keen on this idea of a tripartite table that minister blair had um had been working
00:34:37.400on and uh we thought that was a good way of getting everybody at the table making sure
00:34:42.200resources were aligned making sure everyone uh looked each other in the eyes and uh and work
00:34:48.120together and at that time ontario um was not as keen on that approach i don't really want to
00:34:55.320you know speculate for what the solicitor general or deputy minister solicitor general uh
00:35:00.280at this point wasn't um but from my conversations with them they did want to have ottawa the city
00:35:05.960of ottawa and and the ottawa police service kind of play the lead role and and we're not as um
00:35:11.880interested at that time in the the collaborative tripartite approach that that we were interested
00:35:18.040in okay um uh mr clerk can you take those notes down for a second and pull up ssm.nsc.can403015
00:35:27.400please. So Mr. Broadhead, I think this is a text that goes to the point you were just elucidating.
00:35:50.360So we don't have a confirmed date for this one, but it must be February 8th. Thank you.
00:35:57.000um and this is a text between you and ms astrovis a text exchange and uh she says to you like she's
00:36:03.880in the blue here marco that's a reference to minister mendicino hasn't heard back from sylvia
00:36:09.240jones that's a reference to uh the solicitor general of ontario on the meeting with the
00:36:13.960three orders of government reference to the tripartite and you say yeah because they don't
00:36:18.440want to be a part of it and she says oh i know and you say so anything i should do
00:36:24.600we should just go ahead without them and then it goes on so can you contextual contextualize that
00:36:30.120for us a little bit yeah as they were getting kind of pushed back and or just not support uh
00:36:38.280from their counterparts the solicitor general particular they had asked me to connect with
00:36:43.080my contact in the premier's office and to just check and see if if was this something that
00:36:49.880the entire government or this minister just to kind of ascertain some of those
00:36:53.560kind of contextual details so i did uh i chatted with with uh jamie wallace and it was clear that
00:37:00.760that they were kind of they had a different approach and strategy um and the tripartite
00:37:06.040table was not a priority for them at that time sorry who is jamie wallace sorry jamie wallace
00:37:10.760is the chief of staff to premier ford okay so you had a conversation with mr wallace chief
00:37:15.240of staff to premier ford and the message coming back to you was uh was this was not a strategy
00:37:21.480they wanted to pursue at this time was there any reason given for that um it was i um you know i
00:37:29.240think you know my recollection of that conversation was it was really they they wanted ottawa to be
00:37:37.080the main uh driver of this and and did not want a kind of multi-governmental approach to this at
00:37:43.560that time that that was the impression i got from that phone call okay
00:37:50.200were you having interactions during this time with counterparts in other provinces as well
00:37:55.640yeah so so previously previous to being a director of policy which i started in january um i was
00:38:02.360senior advisor with a focus on intergovernmental affairs and so through that i got to work closely
00:38:09.480with with a number of the provinces um the three i was having most contact with one was
00:38:15.720yeah was british columbia because they were chair of the council of federation at the time so that
00:38:19.640was an ongoing active discussion generally and i want to be clear not just about this for example
00:38:27.080mr wallace and i were working on child care very actively at this time as well and other other
00:38:31.960issues uh were very uh would come up so um and then other provinces as well but the other part
00:38:39.960of our our pmo which is important in this is the regional desks uh who don't report to me they're
00:38:45.640part of the operations team they have g they have geographical areas of responsibility so they're
00:38:52.600often in touch with provinces and cities and we have kind of information sharing between us
00:38:57.880So I'm in touch with them a lot there. They let me know when things are happening. I do, I do as well. So I know that from in those times, there was a lot of informal contact, as well as obviously from ministers and officials.
00:39:11.880Okay, and we may come back to some of those interactions. But we'll stick to Ontario for now. Mr. Clerk, can you pull up SSM.nsc.can402935?
00:39:27.880So, Ms. Talford, this is a text exchange between you and Minister Dominique Leblanc, who we
00:39:50.760know is the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.
00:39:53.940And he writes to you and says, just got this from Vandergriff. So that's a reference to his deputy minister, Michael Vandergriff. Minister, want to let you know that the Ontario Solicitor General has again declined the invitation to attend the tripartite meeting today on the Ottawa occupation. And you say, I think we need to shine a light on that. He says, we'll say it.
00:40:15.320Can you explain to us what was going on in this text message and what you meant by, I think we need to shine a light on that?
00:40:23.940so i think this was a continuation of what john was just talking about this was um obviously a
00:40:29.940further attempt at a meeting with the three levels of government and ontario was continuing to decline
00:40:35.780um i don't recall when he says we'll say it um where that meant uh but it it putting myself back
00:40:45.700in that time i think when i'm saying we should shine a light on it it's bringing some attention
00:40:50.420to the fact that uh ontario wasn't at the table and we really did believe it would be a more
00:40:55.940efficient and effective way to work would it be fair to say that there was some frustration
00:41:01.060um with ontario's response at this point there was definitely some frustration because we believed
00:41:07.300it could be easier than it was all things being very relative at that time but um but there was
00:41:12.980ongoing communication with ontario bilaterally throughout it just meant that the conversations
00:41:17.620were happening between ottawa and the federal government the federal government in ontario
00:41:22.020ontario and so there were just numerous bilateral conversations that we just thought could have been
00:41:27.620um better handled and more efficient if we could have all just come together because as i know has
00:41:33.380come up uh throughout the inquiry there was a fair bit of confusion around numbers and requests and
00:41:39.780the rfas the way they work the request for um assistance they do need to go through the
00:41:44.740provincial level of government and so not having them as part of the conversation made things
00:41:49.700that bit more complicated that's fair um mr clerk can you please pull up ont50159
00:42:02.980so i'm going to ask you here about a meeting that was held on on february 6th uh that was
00:42:08.340a sort of tripartite but not quite uh between the city of ottawa federal government and provincial
00:42:14.020government and the exchange i'm going to take you to we've seen this document several times in the
00:42:18.420commission so i'm not going to go through the whole thing but at the end of the the document
00:42:22.580there's an exchange between the national security advisor and the deputy solicitor general of ontario
00:42:27.700that i'd like to get your take on so it's february 6 and 11 o'clock meeting attended by officials from
00:42:35.220three levels of government so mr clerk if you can scroll down to the very bottom of the document
00:42:44.020You'll see it says there, Jody Thomas, National Security Advisor, noted that it was a positive
00:42:51.680meeting and regrets to end on this following point.
00:42:55.660Would the province be looking to the federal government if this protest was happening outside
00:43:00.200the city of Ottawa, e.g. happening in other places like Kingston?
00:43:04.500And the response from Mr. Di Tommaso was, this is a protest, an encampment moving against
00:43:09.480federal mandate on trucks they came across they came to ottawa from across the country for that
00:43:15.560purpose now mr g tomaso testified at the commission approximately two weeks ago and uh he expressed
00:43:23.160that in his view ms thomas's he he interpreted ms thomas's comment as i'll quote the words here
00:43:30.200the federal government wanting to wash its hands of the entire matter um and so i'd just like to
00:43:36.200get your reaction in in terms of whether you think that was a fair assessment of what was going on
00:43:41.720uh whether you think that that was what what was being expressed there and um what ms thomas was
00:43:48.360trying to express when she said would this be would the province be looking to the federal
00:43:52.440government if this was somewhere other than ottawa i might um start like i don't i'm not putting too
00:44:02.760much weight into this like as i read it and i wasn't there but this strikes me as frustration
00:44:09.160and a bit of a back and forth and that frustration happening and and and both sides kind of
00:44:14.440articulating some of that frustration i think um we were trying to look for ways to work together
00:44:21.320there were three levels of government and it was um it was a challenge to get these these these
00:44:29.080machines um working in the right direction i think this is a this back and forth is a
00:44:35.880would be my guess would be this is an outcrop of just a frustration around those those levels
00:44:41.080of government and the and the two different approaches that i've outlined before fair enough
00:44:45.960and you can appreciate that one of the issues that the commission is is looking into is is
00:44:50.120the interaction between governments and and which is not always an easy thing but um how it all
00:44:55.400played out here okay um so eventually um around this time around the time of february 7th 8th 9th
00:45:04.600ontario became more engaged when the ambassador bridge blockade became entrenched and
00:45:10.200And so we know that that has happened and I'll take you with that point too.
00:49:54.440So this is the notation I said we'd come back to. This is the meeting that you're having with the Prime Minister on February 6th. And the notation. There it is. Thank you. Coutts persists, but traffic is moving. Alberta asked for RFA. We don't see CAF being able to help with that.
00:50:19.220So at that point, it's apparently been concluded or decided in some form that the Canadian Armed Forces is unable to assist. Is that correct, Mr. Klaff?
00:50:28.180So the RFA came in the day before that, and it immediately spurred a number of conversations with different offices.
00:50:34.980Ministers were consulted, and the Prime Minister was consulted on a few different occasions about this.
00:50:40.200And yes, there was a general sense that CAF should be a last resort.
00:50:45.360But also in this specific case, I think you've heard from other witnesses as well, but at the time, the discussion was that this was not an appropriate or even useful response to what the problem was.
00:51:02.600And what I mean by that was, were these trucks actually going to be able to do the job?
00:51:06.480That was all part of the discussion that ensued after the request came in on the 5th.
00:51:11.340What I'm really wondering about all of these exchanges, and there was a further meeting apparently on the 9th where, again, this time it was Ms. Telford, Ms. Charette, the Prime Minister, and Ministers Leblanc, Mancino, and Blair all discussing the RFA during one of the meetings that was held.
00:51:31.740Why was this RFA treated quite differently than most are?
00:51:35.980This was elevated to the level of the PMO and the prime minister,
00:51:40.080which most requests for assistance are not.
00:55:51.560But there was also a discussion in many of these conversations, including between the Prime Minister and the President, that both countries were facing similar forces in certain ways.
00:56:02.780For example, the United States also saw some convoy activity.
00:56:07.040I think it was dealt with quite quickly by the Americans, but they saw a trucker protest heading to the Super Bowl.
00:56:14.300There was one that was trying to be assembled to head to Washington, D.C.
00:56:17.840So these were a part of the conversations as well.
00:57:44.320Mr. Broadhead, Ms. Telford, were either of you having conversations with international counterparts? No?
00:57:52.100Not during the occupation or when the blockades were on.
00:57:56.440For months afterwards, I can say, including up until recent summits, though, this is a topic that continues to come up with counterparts from various countries.
00:58:07.020And the prime minister also had calls during the occupation with other world leaders where this was a topic that was coming up because they were they were watching what was happening in Canada and concerned that they were starting to see the same thing in some of their countries and they were concerned about copycat situations.
00:58:23.820So this has been an ongoing conversation with international leaders.
00:58:27.020I would just add as well, another feature of all of the conversations between the Americans and us, including the call between the Prime Minister and the President, was the fact that a lot of the support for the unlawful activity here in Canada was coming from the United States in terms of money, in terms of people, and in terms of political support from some of the most prominent U.S. political figures.
00:58:49.220millions of dollars came in from the united states according to published reports chief slowly
00:58:55.780announced that there were american citizens who had traveled to join the occupation in ottawa
00:59:01.620so that was also a feature of the discussions here the flooding of 911 phone lines here in ottawa
00:59:06.840came largely from americans as as announced by chief slowly and the ottawa police so
00:59:12.580this was very much a shared problem and we were talking about it in that sense we've heard about
00:59:18.660some of that already at the commission um you speak of the foreign funding and we explored that
00:59:23.140a bit this morning with the deputy prime minister and it was it was found in the end that there were
00:59:28.820millions of dollars coming from um from the united states from private donors so there was no foreign
00:59:35.220state funding coming in would you agree with that yes okay um and we've also established that there
00:59:42.740there was little information available to the government at the time of the convoy
00:59:48.220of how much money was coming in from the United States.
00:59:51.440That wasn't really information that was available to the government at the time.
00:59:56.240It definitely became more apparent as time passed, and I totally agree with you.
01:00:00.920It is cloudy and unclear, and it's concerning that it happened.
01:00:07.400But one example I would give, I mean, we felt quite strongly at the time that it was happening.
01:00:13.800And proof of that, I would say, is when GoFundMe paused the account, you saw some of the most prominent American political figures attack GoFundMe.
01:00:24.260And they didn't do that for no reason.
01:00:27.000They did it because it was clear to them and it was clear to us that a lot of the funding was coming from Americans.
01:00:34.200Okay. So you've taken me to what I actually wanted to ask you about, which is one thing we haven't heard much about so far is political commentary coming from the United States. So you mentioned prominent political figures who are weighing in on all of this. Can you tell us about some of that, some of what you were hearing or observing on that front?
01:00:53.420the issue there there were there were a number of examples from senators from governors from
01:01:00.500the former president and the issue there is not that individuals and politicians aren't allowed
01:01:06.660to comment on politics and policies in other other countries it happens all the time but the
01:01:12.060concern for us was it was direct encouragement for unlawful activity that was hugely damaging
01:01:18.000to the country including the border blockades so that's that's why i raise it here and that's why
01:01:22.980the president the prime minister spoke about it it was the support for unlawful activity okay um
01:01:30.900mr clerk can can you please pull up mr clow's notes again so that's ssm.nsc.can402941
01:29:17.940So the key messages are, as I said yesterday, the situation across the country remains concerning, volatile, and unpredictable.
01:29:25.960We are continuing to see a range of protest events and solidarity actions across the country with Port Sventry and legislatures the key targets.
01:29:34.100I want to underscore two key bottom lines off the top.
01:29:37.480First, as it relates to Ottawa and Ontario, there is an operational need to maintain access to these powers to ensure that we can finish what we started and prevent any retrenchment, even for the next two to three weeks.
01:29:52.440And then after that, it is important that we retain the ability to maintain the perimeter, restrict travel, and ensure we can continue to choke off financial support and other assistance to the protesters in Ottawa.
01:30:06.460And then it goes on. Do you recall this having been expressed at the IRG that the emergencies act should stay in place by the RCMP, by Commissioner Lucky for another two or three weeks?
01:30:17.880my colleagues may have stuff to add but I don't know if it was conveyed on the
01:30:23.38020th but that was definitely a message right up to the revocation that the
01:30:27.540RCMP believed that the powers were critical and they argued that they
01:30:32.560should stay in place for a period longer in order to prevent additional
01:30:40.000blockades from starting or from people from returning to the ones that existed
01:30:43.620Okay. Ms. Telford, Mr. Broadhead, do you have anything to add to that?
01:30:49.720Okay. And as we know that that's not what happened in the end, the act was revoked three days later.
01:30:55.800So is it fair to say that that input was received but not followed by, in the end, the government?
01:31:02.980Important to point out is that both for the invocation and the revocation, the RCMP was one of many inputs.
01:31:09.420So, for sure, this view would have been considered and was considered, but ultimately, the Prime Minister and the IRG decided to revoke when they decided to revoke, based on many different inputs.
01:31:22.320Okay. One thing I wanted to ask you while about the revocation decision is there have been some suggestions that the motion to confirm the declaration of emergency had been passed through the House of Commons but was up for a vote in the Senate.
01:31:37.000And that part of the timing of revocation may have been due to some perhaps lack of confidence around whether the Senate would confirm the declaration. Can you speak to that?
01:31:50.880so quite the opposite actually and and yes i am aware of that suggestion that perhaps there's an
01:31:57.920attempt to revoke before the senate got to its vote we actually wanted the senate to move as
01:32:04.000quickly as possible and i think it did too but it was as it was reported to us the senate was delayed
01:32:10.080in convening partly because of the ottawa very significant continuing ottawa demonstrations
01:32:15.520that were happening right on the senate's doorstep they did begin their debate at a certain point
01:32:21.840but that was not considered when it came to revocation the decisions around revocation
01:32:27.440was what's the situation is this act still needed are these powers still needed um we would have
01:32:34.000liked the senate to have its vote but i will also say i know of no reason to believe that the senate
01:32:38.720would not have endorsed it and i i do believe that um i'm not sure about this but i do believe that
01:32:45.760this commission has seen evidence that the chief of staff to senator gold the govern the the
01:32:52.080government leader in the senate was doing vote counting and they were quite comfortable that
01:32:57.520they were in a good place anything to add on that point just offered mr brada no i i completely agree
01:33:04.960with what brian was just saying and i would just add that it was extraordinarily important to the
01:33:10.000prime minister that it be that he'd be true to what he said out in the beginning when he invoked
01:33:15.920the act and that it wasn't going to last one minute longer than absolutely necessary and so
01:33:20.800that was the entire motivation behind when the revocation happened and the same way you know
01:33:26.080safety and security was at the core of every meeting he was having throughout the politics
01:33:30.960and parliamentary issues we're on a completely separate track from that decision making okay
01:33:37.040um those are actually all the questions i have for you since given that the prime minister will
01:33:42.640be here tomorrow and your boss will be speaking for himself um those are the questions that i
01:33:46.560have for you this afternoon but before i sit down is there anything that we haven't covered here
01:33:50.400today that you would like to say now that you have the opportunity i think we're good nope pretty
01:33:59.360okay thank you commissioner those are my questions okay thank you very much um i think probably this
01:34:08.080is a good time to take a 15 minute break and let everyone get up and stretch and so we'll come back
01:34:17.920in 15 minutes thank you the Commission is in recess for 15 minutes
02:00:34.900Okay. And she indicates with respect to Coutts, they were almost gone, but a pastor incited them to stay, was 250 vehicles, now down to 40, and weapons are in the protest, need to go slow here.
02:00:51.440Was the Prime Minister part of this conversation?
02:10:53.840I think we've gotten a lot of disclosure.
02:10:57.040There are issues, and we're dealing with those issues that are raised as they are raised.
02:11:01.940We dealt with the ones you raised, I believe, at the end of last week,
02:11:06.440made some orders, confirmed some of the redactions,
02:11:10.920and we'll deal with your most current application.
02:11:14.800But could you just not order that the redactions for parliamentary privilege, because I can tell you, I've studied that area in and out.
02:11:27.700And the reason no one could provide you an authority for the purpose of a redaction on the basis of parliamentary privilege is it doesn't exist.
02:11:35.980And parliamentary privilege is, of course, an ancient doctrine.
02:11:38.580And if you would just order the production of the records without those redactions, it would remove a whole bunch.
02:11:46.960Then if you would order the production of all relevant records with respect where relevant is claimed, those records are then subject to the implied undertaking rule.
02:11:58.180And there's no national security issue with those.
02:12:00.820If they were, Section 38 would be claimed.
02:12:03.180There's no Cabinet confidence because Section 39 is not claimed.
02:12:06.180and that's it that has been the law it's time immemorial how can you contest if something's
02:12:12.500relevant if you don't know what it says and my problem is is that this witness is now on the
02:12:21.820stand one of the documents is key in my submission it is the notes of miss jackson which is the office
02:12:29.860assistant to this witness there are redactions therein on the basis of irrelevance and there
02:12:36.160There are redactions therein, also I believe on one of the other grounds that I've sent
02:12:42.220a written motion, if you will, email to your council.
02:12:46.980We've been asking for these things and asking for proper production throughout this proceeding.
02:12:51.840All council are in agreement that we don't have proper production, sir.
02:12:55.020Okay, well, I'm not sure you can speak for all council and I'm sure they can speak for
02:12:58.980themselves as to whether or not you've been asking for this a long time.
02:13:03.740i'm not aware that you asked about those redactions so uh but but maybe i don't have the
02:13:10.300records but anyways we're gonna have to stop this and and despite your belief that the law is always
02:13:17.260very clear my experience of 20 years is there's that's why judges have are around and so if you
02:13:23.900could proceed otherwise you know we're not going to get anywhere so so if i could bring up uh the
02:19:11.500I mean, there were questions from the media where ministers were speaking about the Emergencies Act long before it was invoked.
02:19:19.960Yeah. And Minister Blair, I discussed this with him, on February 13th, for the first time he went on a show and he talked about that it was under consideration from the outset.
02:19:34.860But then when he testified here, he said it wasn't.
02:19:39.280So was the invocation of the Emergencies Act under consideration from the beginning of the protest in Ottawa?
02:19:46.560the emergencies act was something that was discussed at the beginning of the pandemic
02:19:52.880and it was a public conversation at that time as well as a private conversation there were
02:19:57.880calls for the prime minister if we can put the document back up please
02:20:00.920perhaps it's brian gover for the government of canada perhaps the witness could complete
02:20:06.640her answer to the question without interruption oh no i've just the document went down i'm not done
02:20:11.000i apologize so thank you so and i understand that there was a consideration of a public welfare
02:20:21.480emergency right that's very different than a public order emergency you know that there
02:20:26.040doesn't have to be a section two security threat right and are you talking about i'm not sure when
02:20:33.160you're talking about we're talking about from covid because you said it was under consideration then
02:20:37.080They did look at the Emergencies Act at that time, and there was a public call for that at the time, and it was determined because the Prime Minister was very reluctant, as he was during the occupation this past February, to invoke it.
02:20:51.480And so there's been conversations on various occasions about the Emergencies Act over time.
02:20:56.040So when that note's taken on February 4th, 2022, are you saying that you're talking about it in relation to COVID?
02:21:04.320i genuinely don't know what this note is as i've already said to you a few times
02:21:10.640okay so if i can scroll up or down or up please or down but we'll go down down's fine
02:21:18.920okay so that says flag 2kt february 10th and it's written in there that this is irrelevant
02:21:29.480what does that mean why is it irrelevant do you know because i don't know specifically
02:21:36.760i don't know either i could surmise that flag to katie means it's probably a bit of a to-do
02:21:42.620list of things she wanted to flag to me that were obviously deemed irrelevant to what we
02:21:47.460are talking about today okay and could we scroll down again and this one where it says staff
02:21:53.220blockade right and then it has section 39 invoked do you know what that means i don't know why they
02:22:02.180invoked it there right and so i take it when you were having this phone call there was no one else
02:22:09.380present on the phone other than you and miss jackson was there i don't believe that this is
02:22:13.380a phone call any longer well if we scroll back up this is the second page it's the way it's
02:22:17.540said flag to Katie at the top. Flag to Katie okay and so on February 10th do you remember if Ms.
02:22:25.540Jackson was in a meeting with cabinet? She is not normally in meetings with cabinet. So how could
02:22:32.100section 39's cabinet confidence so how can so it this is the problem those are my questions.
02:22:41.140Thank you. If we could now call on the Ottawa Police Service, please.
02:23:01.780Good evening. My name is David Michikowska. I'm a lawyer for Ottawa Police Service.
02:23:05.540um miss telford my questions at least initially will be directed to you
02:23:13.140i understand that the pmo relies on the rcmp
02:23:18.980generally but what do you mean uh well you really i i guess pmo relies on the rcmp to protect the
02:23:25.300prime minister and others yes and you trust the rcmp you do um the rcmp has kept the prime minister
02:23:33.860and his family safe? They have. And the RCMP takes security very seriously? They do. And one of the
02:23:45.540documents, I won't take you to it, but I believe the Commission took you to it, one of the documents
02:23:53.060that you were taken to reference the intersect group. You're familiar with the intersect group?
02:23:58.100can you remind me sure um it was described in that document as a group that gets uh stood up
02:24:08.020and is um composed of the ops the rcmp pps opp you're familiar with that yes and all of them
02:24:18.360are involved in decisions and discussions about these types of protest events and security concerns
02:24:25.620correct that sounds right and in fact in that chain of the emails that you were
02:24:33.840taken to there's reference and it was on January 25th miss powers indicates that
02:24:40.880the key will be tomorrow's intersect meeting and how law enforcement will
02:24:45.920pre-mobilize so you're obviously aware that the RCMP whom you have a lot of
02:24:52.260confidence in is monitoring the protest as it's approaching ottawa correct yes and on um january
02:25:03.62027th um and i i won't pull it up but i'll give the reference for the record it's pb dot can four zeros
02:25:13.780one eight four four um there's a series of um text messages uh i believe between minister
02:25:22.580mendocino and yourself and you indicate that the rcmp or he indicates to you that the rcmp on
02:25:30.100january 27th says that the current estimate is about 2700 trucks but the numbers could fluctuate
02:25:37.940do you recall that that sounds right and uh there's another um document um from the pmo i
02:25:47.060believe it's from ms power um she's the issues advisor she's one of several issues advisor but
02:25:54.100she holds the file for public safety and so there's an email from her on january 28th
02:26:01.300um again uh the reference number is ssm.can.nsc402795 and she gives some more uh data as to what the
02:26:14.100status is one of the things that she references in that uh report on the latest numbers is um
02:26:22.660Project Hendon and we've heard a lot about Project Hendon uh was that something that you were familiar
02:26:28.820with as well? Not at the time. I'm sorry? Not at the time. Okay. Subsequently, you did hear about
02:26:35.540Project Hendon. Is that right? During the inquiry, I've heard a fair bit. Right. And so she's
02:26:40.840referring to, so obviously, the RCMP, I'm assuming, has access to the same Hendon data as the other
02:26:48.780security services. Fair assumption? I couldn't speak to what information they had access to.
02:26:55.600okay um and so what we see when we look at all of these um documents that i'm referring to is
02:27:02.880the numbers of vehicles of trucks in the convoy in the last couple days before it arrives is a
02:27:11.040constantly fluctuating number nobody seems to be able to get a full grasp on is that fair it certainly
02:27:18.720felt that way and certainly nobody uh even the rcmp up until that day the friday were saying that
02:27:27.120this protest was going to become an occupation correct i will say in those in those updates
02:27:34.720that were coming from mary liz power and they were more than once daily by the end of the week
02:27:41.040there were some references and i do believe this commission has seen in those emails and i think it
02:27:45.200was attributed to op intersect that this could be a prolonged demonstration but you are right there
02:27:53.920was a lot of uncertainty about what was coming and so you understood that even the law enforcement
02:28:01.200community couldn't predict exactly what occurred and what did in fact occur fair
02:28:09.760i agree this was a challenging situation for everyone and you wouldn't fault the rcmp for that
02:28:14.560would you? No. You've talked about what you saw on social media in the days leading up to it,
02:28:25.760and CSIS has told us that analyzing social media is rather complex and requires more than simply
02:28:34.080scrolling through social media. You wouldn't have any reason to disagree with that, would you?
02:28:38.720I think it's a fair statement, but there are some things said on social media that represent clearly the views of the person expressing it.
02:28:53.720And in this case, in this demonstration, there were statements made on social media about threats of violence, threats to individuals, and aims and motives that they had.
02:29:03.820I'm sorry, I don't mean to cut you off, but I have a very limited amount of time.
02:29:07.680My question was more related to the numbers of people that are coming on social media, because what Mr. Vigneault said is it is difficult to tell.
02:29:18.620It's a challenge, I think he said, to know when someone moves from the online space to physical space and the social media is full of misinformation.
02:29:29.840Ms. Telford, you wouldn't disagree with that, would you?
02:29:31.920I think it was challenging for everyone. And that's why it was important to bring everyone together at various points. But I do think there was, I think, you know, I think the number of people, including Mr. Vigneault, have spoken about how figuring out the social media space is something that needs to be done coming out of this.
02:29:51.480right um and you recognize um just moving on to another area you recognize that police and we've
02:29:58.920heard from a number of ministers that police need to have operational independence from governments
02:30:05.720absolutely and that police have to make operational decisions in real time for reasons that may not
02:30:15.240be evident to the government and or to the public fair of course and that's something we took very
02:30:21.080very seriously and uh again you respected that operational independence you wouldn't want the
02:30:27.000police whether it's the ottawa or opp or the rcmp to take action without considering what impact
02:30:35.000that action would have on officer safety or crowd safety or children in the crowd of course
02:30:43.320and in fact one of the lessons of ipriwash that we've heard is that governments should not be
02:30:48.920allowed to influence specific law enforcement operational decisions you'd agree with that
02:30:55.000fair it was actually something i asked after and we got a verbal brief on very early on i think it
02:31:02.200was actually even before uh it all got uh before it became even an occupation um because it was
02:31:08.920something we were very preoccupied about respecting and that did and it's because decisions those type
02:31:15.560of operational decisions belong to the police based on their expertise and their discretion
02:31:21.720correct yes and there's nothing to suggest that the ottawa police service did not exercise their
02:31:29.320discretion legitimately and in good faith in this case is that fair fair um the situation we've heard
02:31:39.880in ottawa was i'm going to use a word that we've all heard a lot in this was a volatile one um you
02:31:47.080wouldn't disagree with that it was extremely volatile and ultimately that situation was
02:31:53.560diffused uh but you'd agree with me that diffusing a situation like this one uh is something that
02:32:01.880takes time in fact the prime minister in a conversation with the governor general on
02:32:07.800February 5th specifically made that point when he said it's going to take time to defuse this.
02:32:15.560You wouldn't disagree with that, would you? I believe that conversation was a ways into
02:32:19.880the occupation already. So I don't think I can agree or disagree with whether or not
02:32:27.240these things always take time. And ultimately in addition to time,
02:32:31.880it took a massive amount of additional resources as well, correct?
03:09:07.940and just so i'm clear that objection means i can't ask whether that opinion had been provided during
03:09:14.180that meeting sorry I can't see anyone yeah I'm just waiting for an answer
03:09:23.240Brian go over you may not consistent with maintaining the objection inquire
03:09:30.320into the content of any advice given by the Minister of Justice and Attorney
03:09:35.360General and the question is does that include the fact of or of the opinion or
03:09:43.220not my friend may inquire as to whether an opinion was expressed the fact of the opinion not the
03:09:54.340content so to be clear i was never asking about the content of the opinion was the fact of this
03:10:01.940you know was this legal opinion the fact that this legal opinion existed and whatever its content may
03:10:07.620have been, shared at that February 13th evening meeting with the full cabinet?
03:10:15.660I'm not sure. From a document perspective, there were certainly discussions around it.
03:10:22.240Okay. And the final question I have is, there was this Ottawa Police Service POU plan.
03:10:30.840Was that plan shared to the cabinet members at that February 13th evening meeting with the entire cabinet?
03:10:44.060We had heard at various points in the lead up to the invocation that there were plans or action was about to be taken in various situations, including Ottawa.
03:10:55.540absolutely that was part of the discussion and consideration the fact that action had not been
03:11:04.340taken up until that point and the assessment was that was because law enforcement did not
03:11:09.380have the tools they needed okay but was that plan the document the plan you know there's a there's
03:11:16.000a document that's called the op spou was that document shared with the february 13th cabinet
03:11:24.080members it's hard to comment because we don't have the document we don't i don't know i'm not sure
03:11:27.440what document that is sure um i'm not sure how much time i have left commissioner below i can
03:11:32.800just bring up the document just to ask them if this was something that was shared during that
03:11:36.240meeting you're over time so if you want to put up the document that'll be yeah that's fine i'm just
03:11:42.800i'm not sure they understand what it is a pou plan is a public order unit which is are the police
03:11:50.880officers who go in on a police uh uh public order uh process or
03:12:01.520so i can't speak to that specific but cabinet was definitely aware that on february 13th when they
03:12:06.880were discussing the situation in ottawa was worse than it had been at any point and the threats of
03:12:12.400violence the actual violence was terrifying that's what was discussed at cabinet okay but you can't
03:12:19.200say whether that document had been shared during that meeting and i just want to be fair to the
03:12:24.000witness sorry oh sorry it's pbnsc can uh four zeros seven seven three four that's the document
03:12:37.840and i'll just ask them if this is something they've recognized and whether they know if it was shared
03:12:49.200just on that page so i take it from shaking your head now we need an audible answer that's not
03:13:02.960familiar to me i've never seen this one okay thank you very much those are all my questions
03:13:07.120Okay, next is the City of Ottawa, please.
03:13:26.120Good evening, my name is Alyssa Tompkins, I am a Council for the City of Ottawa.
03:13:32.120I just want to ask you a couple questions about some comments in the witness summary.
03:13:37.520So, Mr. Clerk, if we could bring up the witness summary, it's WTS, however many zeros, 83.
03:14:02.120And if we could go down to page four, bottom of page four.
03:14:13.520So I'll start by directing my questions to Mr. Clough because these comments are attributed
03:14:18.680to him, but obviously the others can add in.
03:14:22.120So there's a comment here at Mr. Clough noted that the city was clearly struggling to manage
03:14:27.360the occupation and that this was reflected in most conversations and media reporting
03:14:32.000and reaction from residents so mr cloud did you understand that the response to the protest was
03:14:38.080a police-led operation absolutely i understand that okay so you understand that the city
03:14:46.880cannot direct law enforcement as to operational matters when i said city there
03:14:52.640i believe i would have meant the city holistically so all of it the sum of its parts clearly the
03:15:00.560situation in ottawa was out of control and that's what i was referring to okay so in terms though
03:15:06.280of it it you understand it was managed by the police though which reports into the city of
03:15:12.980ottawa i mean all of this is is the different levels are relevant here okay so the police
03:15:19.140you understand there's a police services board that is independent from the city so i've answered
03:15:25.060the question my comment was that the city of ottawa was out of control in especially in the
03:15:32.040downtown okay okay i just wanted to be sure that that you weren't suggesting the city itself could
03:15:39.320be doing more i'm not speaking to i wasn't here or am i now speaking to specifics of the arrangement
03:15:45.720within the city of ottawa okay and if we could just go to the next page please
03:15:53.560and uh again it's it's you mr clow uh referring to a meeting you had um and i think if we were to
03:16:03.640actually look at the footnote i won't take you to it but i think it's a february 3rd
03:16:07.720and it's noted that one issue identified in the notes of this meeting was the fact that the
03:16:12.120request from ottawa did not come from ontario and it was unclear whether provincial resources
03:16:17.880had first been exhausted so this is prior to the letter from the mayor so we're in the first week
03:16:24.040and i i just um commissioner lucky and minister blair have both testified that it's in fact very
03:16:30.200common for the city of for ops to reach out to the rcmp directly because of ottawa's status as
03:16:36.920the national capital and I just want to make sure you don't have any evidence to contradict them
03:16:42.280that this was actually a quite a normal process at this point. I don't have any evidence of that
03:16:49.240effect and I stand by what's what appears here. Okay thank you those are my questions. Okay thank
03:16:54.840Thank you. Next is the Ottawa Coalition, please.
03:17:12.840Good evening. My name is Christine Johnson.
03:17:14.840I'm counsel for the Ottawa Coalition of Residents and Businesses.
03:17:18.840I want to ask you a few questions this evening about your experiences
03:17:22.840in Ottawa and also some of the experiences you were hearing of staff members that you work with
03:17:30.080in Ottawa. And I understand, Mr. Broadhead, that you live in Toronto and we're not here for the
03:17:34.800Ottawa protests. So I will direct my questions. Okay, so I will direct these questions to Ms.
03:17:41.360Telford and to Mr. Clough. So you were both here living in Ottawa during the demonstrations?
03:17:47.840Yes. And in the witness statement, and to save time, I don't think we need to pull it up unless I hear otherwise from you, but your colleague, Mr. Broadhurst, noted that at least some protesters engaged immediately in illegal activity by blocking and occupying city streets, defacing public property, harassing residents.
03:18:12.680Was this also your observation, that this kind of illegal activity was occurring as early as the first weekend in Ottawa?
03:18:48.800I presume this is text between you, Ms. Tilford, and our Prime Minister.
03:18:54.440And I believe it doesn't show at the top of this document,
03:18:57.520but the way this document's labeled in our disclosure, our discovery database,
03:19:01.600it also says it involved um phil prue who i believe is the executive assistant or was the
03:19:06.640executive assistant that's right and you've testified here tonight that mr prue lives in
03:19:12.640center town yes yes um and we see here uh you can see faintly at the top these are uh texts shared
03:19:22.480on february 2nd um and it looks like miss telford you share a tweet um from city councillor katherine
03:19:30.400mckinney describing the situation in center town and then we see this blue box below and i'm not
03:19:38.480sure do you recall if this was from mr prue or was this from our prime minister that would be
03:19:42.640phil prue okay and he says yep the honking wheel spinning went on late again last night it was all
03:19:49.280day yesterday again i put earplugs in at times during the day yesterday to make it less aggressive
03:19:55.600It has already started again this morning.
03:19:59.300They have some periods of calm now, but then start nonstop for a period of time.
03:20:03.760It is enough to absolutely drive you absolutely nuts.
03:20:07.200The truck horns especially, they sound like they are right in the middle of your home.
03:20:12.280So would you agree that this statement seems to convey that for residents living in the heart of Centretown,
03:20:19.360the honking could be heard very loudly inside homes and not just on the street?
03:20:23.140that's certainly what he was conveying and did you hear about this experience from other residents
03:20:29.620as well through your conversations with um city councilor citizens groups yes uh we were hearing
03:20:36.980it from local members of parliament um and and they were hearing it from many other constituents
03:20:42.500we were hearing it from staff we were hearing it from members of parliament who were in town
03:20:46.980um it was uh and and everyone was from a staff perspective was having to work from
03:20:53.380home during this period or almost everyone was there were a few essential staff able to go in
03:20:58.820um but both because we couldn't access our offices because of the occupation
03:21:04.100um as well as omicron we we were working virtually during this whole period
03:21:10.340right and on that point i i think i saw in the witness statement that there was actually a
03:21:14.500direction at some point that staff should work from home for their safety and it was mentioned
03:21:19.220that this was uh never done before it was never communicated that staff should work from home for
03:21:23.700their safety before that was unusual and significant that's right for a demonstration
03:21:29.300staff had been advised to work from home during covet pandemic at different periods but for a
03:21:33.060demonstration as far as we can recall we've never had to send a notice like that saying stay away
03:21:38.420And in terms of safety concerns regarding staff, we saw in your witness statement, there was mention of a particular incident where a convoy participant threw coffee at a pregnant staff member. Do you recall that incident?
03:21:59.440Are you aware that there were incidents of threatening and assaultive nature going on that were not, in fact, always reported to police at this time and where they were, residents were not always receiving feedback that these complaints were being followed up on?
03:22:25.260Next is the Ontario Provincial Police.
03:22:29.440good evening it's chris diana council to the opp and commissioner i can advise that i've been
03:22:43.980gifted five additional minutes from the windsor police service for which i'm very grateful
03:22:47.480i may not need that time but i appreciate the gift and if i need it i will use it
03:22:52.040yeah and if you don't use it they don't get it back
03:22:54.520won't be my concern at that point i wanted to ask about nipper wash you mentioned nipper wash
03:23:02.480in your witness summary and as far as who answers this it doesn't really matter whoever has knowledge
03:23:06.640i was going to bring up your witness summary but i don't think that's necessary
03:23:10.080you referenced that there was a verbal briefing you said that in your evidence-in-chief
03:23:14.300and i wanted to ask you about that verbal briefing what did that come out of
03:23:19.260why was there a purple what do you mean yes um so as i think i mentioned earlier
03:23:27.440today i um it was actually something that i raised very early on in all of this um perhaps
03:23:36.140because i i worked at queen's park uh once upon a time uh but it was something i was just very
03:23:41.300conscious of and wanted to make sure we knew where all the lines exactly were and um the deputy clerk
03:23:47.700who's a former deputy minister of justice made sure to get us information on that right and the
03:23:53.620reason i wanted to ask was because i mean that's very preemptive of you but were there any concerns
03:23:59.120that you had about comments that had been made by anybody at that time no it was literally day one
03:24:03.880that i asked these questions and when you say day one like the first day the day of the arrival of
03:24:07.980the protesters approximately i might have even been just before it was it was the very first
03:24:15.700meeting i was in talking about these kinds of things and hearing about potential how the police
03:24:20.260were going to be handling things were any members of cabinet asking you kind of how far can we go
03:24:24.820as far as police because understandably there was some frustration that we've heard about
03:24:28.900police enforcement uh no if anything it was uh everyone was extraordinarily cautious on that
03:24:38.500All right, Mr. Clerk, if you can bring up pb.can.1870 and Mr. Cloud, these are some text messages I believe that you were involved with, so I'd like to ask you because I think you may have some specific knowledge.
03:24:56.500all right and it's not entirely clear from the text themselves although the description of the
03:25:05.780text in the database suggests that this may have been a text exchange with chief of staff
03:25:10.260mike jones who i believe with the chief of staff for the minister mendicino yes that's from mike
03:25:16.420jones to me okay and so i wanted to ask and that's what i thought based on the content so this is an
03:25:22.580email exchange you had sorry a text exchange with mike jones on february 6 240. do you remember this
03:25:30.260exchange i do yes all right and so mike jones writes he expressed some concern about ops
03:25:38.580enforcement and concern for the safety of the pm i assume he's referencing the prime minister there
03:25:45.060yes and he says he wants to go out and say that ops needs to get control over the situation
03:25:51.940and if they need more from opp they should make that clear but they should get working on removals
03:25:57.140within the next 24 hours now i take it that when he says he wants to go out he's referring to
03:26:02.740minister mendicino is that correct i would assume so do you know if that if mr minister mendicino
03:26:10.020or anybody else actually went to ops with that kind of direction to try to remove people within
03:26:15.300the next 24 hours so first thing i'll say is these updates came in there was a lot happening there
03:26:21.620were a lot of conversations going on so i you'll note i didn't even have a chance to reply to this
03:26:26.100or i didn't reply to it but i would have received the update my recollection is that did not happen
03:26:32.260what is proposed here um and i don't want to read too much into the specifics of what is written
03:26:39.540here but absolutely as katie said we were always incredibly careful and aware that politicians
03:26:48.820don't direct the police right and when you say we were aware you're talking about the prime
03:26:53.300minister's office or are you talking about all of cabinet both these this was discussed and mentioned
03:26:59.380on various occasions throughout the convoy and is it because people were expressing concerns
03:27:04.660about police enforcement it was because this clearly policing was a central part of this
03:27:12.580and a lot of us are aware of issues from the past everyone here is aware of it for wash
03:27:18.980for example so we were highly sensitive right out of the gate that politicians do not instruct the
03:27:26.420police yes and i would have asked to be clear i would have asked minister mendicino but we didn't
03:27:30.100get this in time for me to do that which is why i'm trying to understand from you whether or not
03:27:35.460minister mendicino or anybody else actually contacted anyone from ottawa police service
03:27:40.580or even the rcmp to say we want people gone we want them gone quickly i have no knowledge of
03:27:47.380that okay but you would agree i don't believe that happened no certainly and it sounds like
03:27:51.300the prime minister's office was very aware of upper wash which is great and i'm sure you would
03:27:55.620agree that if that had been communicated to the police service that would have been inappropriate
03:28:00.580correct if what is written here is a faithful and accurate description of of what it appears
03:28:09.060we were in here i do agree direction should not be given to the police by politicians right and you
03:28:15.700would have no reason stout that you know what his chief of staff was saying you wouldn't have a
03:28:20.900reason to believe that wasn't what he was hearing from his own minister correct i have no reason
03:28:24.420to believe that but i i can't and shouldn't speak to that um i do actually believe this text message
03:28:29.380was put to minister mendicino this week but that really would be a question for for him
03:28:34.580do you know when you talked about the briefing that was done on ipra wash
03:28:39.800were the ministers involved in that briefing i mean it sounds like there were a number of
03:28:45.000discussions but miss telford you mentioned there was one briefing in particular at the beginning
03:28:49.680was that a a cabinet briefing no that was that was something we received um on our request but
03:28:56.900um but it was something reinforced on numerous occasions throughout the process and again when
03:29:02.680say we i just want to make sure i drill down on who who who are we are they the the politicians
03:29:08.360their staff members kind of who is we uh so we within prime minister's office who are here we
03:29:14.600were briefed early on on our request but then the the um the principles were repeated on numerous
03:29:23.960occasions uh certainly through irgs and through other discussions throughout i don't think there
03:29:30.120there was anyone that I worked with who was not conscious of of the need to be
03:29:34.300cautious correct thank you and just to confirm the record it was put to
03:29:41.660Minister Mendocino okay we all make mistakes and so council for former chief
03:31:27.240And were the briefings that you received always through RCMP officials, briefings on police operations or updates, did they come from Commissioner Luckey?
03:31:41.680Yes, though also the Deputy Minister of Public Safety, the NSIA, would have different parts to the briefs as well.
03:31:48.280Understood. So just a couple of things, if I can get, and I think they're Mr. Clow's notes.
03:31:52.140So could we please just get your help with a couple of things?
03:31:55.440This is for our registrar, SSM NSCCAN 2941, please.
03:32:20.520And you've looked at some of these notes previously.
03:32:23.200that says it looks like ops won't move weeks not days um weekend reinforcements problem
03:32:34.720behind the scenes two deferential need i think you just i want to just confirm this says need bad cop
03:32:42.560you've got to you've got to use the tools you have whether to change public message is different
03:32:50.240Those are references. Do you know what those are references to? Is that reference to the idea that that at that time, at least someone was expressing the view that police were taking a standoffish position with the demonstrators?
03:33:06.860I think that's a fair assessment of that comment.
03:33:08.740And then just in the second one, it looks, the second set of comments, just as to this, RCMP, does it say through OPS under bus at caucus?
03:33:25.240How do we get right people on the path to driving somewhere?
03:33:31.200Any way to get, well, and you talked about that earlier.
03:33:34.220Is that, to the extent that you can recall this, does, is that an indication that the RCMP was, was pointing to OPS as the police of jurisdiction responsible for doing this and that they weren't taking sufficient action at that time? Or can you help us?
03:33:51.540It was, that's me recounting from a national caucus meeting that, I believe that morning, where there was a presentation given to caucus members.
03:34:05.260The large part of the discussion was actually around personal security and security of the building.
03:34:11.400There were significant concerns for members of parliament being able to get from the airport to downtown, let alone from downtown up on the hill.
03:34:17.600And actually getting off the hill was a bigger problem than even getting on it.
03:34:21.540But also as part of that, it was discussed or it was caucus were told that if it had been up to anyone other than the OPS,
03:34:32.740that they would not have allowed the trucks onto Wellington and that they had given that advice and it wasn't taken.
03:34:39.400Right, all right. Did you learn at that time from anyone in that briefing from RCMP that some RCMP officials had seen and reviewed and approved the OPS plan in advance of the protest?
03:34:54.140They did not get into that level of detail with caucus.
03:34:56.500Okay. Could I ask you just to look, please, at page seven of this record, Mr. Registrar, just for a couple of other things.
03:35:03.280Now, of course, I've got to pick it out where it was.
03:35:16.180Ah, about the middle of the page, you see there's a reference to,
03:35:22.640this is obviously a cabinet, it looks like it might be a cabinet committee briefing,
03:35:26.020but it it says too high about the middle 250 rcmp assisting some holding back for surge
03:35:33.940and there's reference to the ambassador bridge up above did you did you come to realize as this
03:35:38.580evolved that there was some misunderstanding about how many rcmp officers were made available
03:35:46.260to ops at any given time matter of shift counting and the like did you learn that
03:35:50.660there definitely appeared to be some confusion over several days about the numbers right i think
03:35:59.540the mayor of city of ottawa had said that what was represented as the number that had been deployed
03:36:05.380to ottawa was was smaller than the number that had been represented in to pub the public and so on
03:36:13.060and then just a couple of other lines if i may ops trying to reduce violence are taking some steps
03:36:20.660um and then there's a likening to ottawa's strategy to to d-day that is that a reference
03:36:29.740to the idea that there was a plan in place to try to dismantle the occupation but that it was going
03:36:35.860to require significant additional resources it could be but i don't know that um this was an
03:36:42.340update from the nsia to the prime minister that sunday evening on february 6th right and then
03:36:49.300And Mr. Commissioner, your indulgence for one more question with Mr. Clow's benefit, page 12, if you don't mind.
03:36:58.400Of course, you were following this as this page is coming up.
03:37:02.540You were following this across the country.
03:37:04.320These, as you've described, Ambassador Bridge and the like.
03:37:09.040If you look at, if you scroll down a little bit, Mr. Registrar, there we go.
03:38:58.420please uh good evening panel my name is mike morris and i'm counsel for the government of
03:39:05.620saskatchewan uh mr broadhead just at the outset i want to make something clear at the first
03:39:12.340minister's meeting premier mo expressed the view that the emergencies act was not wanted
03:39:18.260and not needed in saskatchewan correct i i believe he also said these the six items
03:39:26.260sounded reasonable uh might maybe sounded reasonable but wouldn't be perceived that way
03:39:33.620is that fair i think that's fair yes and and certainly did not want the act to apply to
03:39:40.740saskatchewan correct i think that was clear from the premier yes okay thank you i'd like us to take
03:39:47.220a look at a document so i'm going to ask the clerk to pull up ssm can four zeros six nine two zero
03:40:00.420and while we're waiting i'll let you know that this is an email from ms charette clerk of the
03:40:05.140privy council to actually everyone on this panel at 8 24 a.m on february 14th
03:40:19.220so we can see there 8 24 a.m uh from ms charette good morning all there's something that's
03:40:25.460privileged but then she is detailing uh work that seems to be going on other products in train
03:40:32.660fmm script with q's and a's comms news release and bg which i expect means background decision
03:40:40.660note for pm uh then at the end she says others still in the machine uh mr broadhead when she
03:40:47.780says others still in the machine can we take that as they were being worked on at that time
03:40:54.820i don't it's not a very common phrase like i don't totally know what she was referring to here
03:40:59.460um well she says only one i have seen is fmm script and then she says others still in the
03:41:07.480machine so i i take it that means those are in progress would that be fair
03:41:11.220i don't really want to speculate on what the clerk of the privy council was thinking with that
03:41:17.140okay um if we could go on to a different document then uh well before we do does anyone else have
03:41:26.320view on that that they're able to express are you specifically asking others still in the machine
03:41:32.880or just yes the whole statement absolutely it could mean a number of things i i don't think
03:41:39.760we can speculate okay i'm going to ask the clerk to pull up the email that was referred to by
03:41:46.000council for alberta before it's ssm can four zeros two six six five and this is the email thread that
03:41:58.880was entitled presser tomorrow and i'd like us to go down to the bottom of the second page of the pdf
03:42:12.400right there is good uh we can see an email from a person named vanessa at the pmo
03:42:22.240to a number of other people including others at the pmo indicating presser tracking for 4pm
03:42:29.040this is not to be shared publicly until fmm over and pm updated itinerary is available or is out
03:42:37.280please and uh her her email there of course is is at 1105 i believe if we just go up
03:42:48.24011.05 a.m so my understanding is the first minister's meeting would have been going on at
03:42:53.280that point um miss telford was the purpose in delaying the announcement of the press conference
03:43:00.480so that the premiers would not be offended no the um there was a lot of work happening
03:43:08.320concurrently at the time and uh to be ready for whatever scenarios and whatever decision ultimately
03:43:14.320the prime minister came to and so vanessa um who you named there who's our excellent deputy
03:43:20.880director of communications was making sure that all those tracks were were heading in the right
03:43:26.160direction um at any point things could have been stopped and uh and things could have changed just
03:43:32.960as they were okay i'd like us to go to the middle of the first page of this pdf and it'll be an
03:43:39.360email at 1 43 p.m there it is from vanessa again uh to uh david taylor and and others stating we
03:43:48.960just finished speech prep with pm alex is editing his remarks and we'll be able to share with this
03:43:55.840group as soon as he is done so i i gather at this point in time 1 43 p.m on the 14th
03:44:04.880the prime minister has already rehearsed his speech that he's going to be giving at 4 30 p.m
03:44:10.320is that fair speech prep speech prep is our shorthand uh for going through his remarks uh
03:44:19.840which we would have definitely returned to again uh that afternoon and so that means they would
03:44:25.840have done a once through with him on what things could look like okay um he wasn't rehearsing two
03:44:33.920versions of a speech was he one where he was announcing the the invocation of the emergency
03:44:39.440act and another where he wasn't was he to be clear i wouldn't call it rehearsing um the words speech
03:44:47.280prep literally mean preparing a speech and so they would have been discussing what what would have
03:44:53.760been going into the content in it whether he was comfortable with where the drafts were at at this
03:44:57.520point okay um we heard evidence from the clerk of the privy council some time ago and her evidence
03:45:08.320was that the decision note was sent from the pco to the pmo at 3 41 pm on february 14th
03:45:21.440we can pull up a document if you need me to or i can just ask you to take my word for it
03:45:26.560and if if that's the case um are you familiar with the decision note i i gather you've likely
03:45:35.360seen it before is that fair we're familiar with the decision though okay a fairly lengthy document
03:45:42.480with a number of appendices correct yes and if it was received at 3 41 pm do we know at what time
03:45:52.800uh it would have been returned with the prime minister's initials to the pco
03:45:58.480it was at some point between receipt and when the prime minister made the announcement
03:46:07.840okay so it's obviously sometime before 4 30 in the afternoon then correct
03:46:14.080um that would not have given the prime minister much if any time to have read all of that
03:46:19.920material would you agree with me well a couple comments one he did read the note
03:46:25.040to the start time in the press conference it may be a bit absurd to dig in on the minutes but the
03:46:31.340minutes are important here i don't know that it started precisely at 4 30 i think there might have
03:46:36.400been some delay there but after it was received the prime minister did review the note signed the
03:46:41.660note made the announcement and that signing of the note um was came after the fmm came after the
03:46:48.980opposition leader consultation and that was the prime minister making the decision there before
03:46:55.400he announced it. Okay I'm going to ask each of you a very similar question. Ms. Telford what I'd
03:47:01.940like to know is when you found out that the prime minister would be announcing the invocation of
03:47:06.880the emergencies act at the 4 30 p.m press conference. He and I would have been discussing
03:47:15.020the possibility throughout the day until he signed the decision note uh there was there was nothing
03:47:23.580confirmed um okay do we know when the announcement went out to the press gallery that the conference
03:47:32.620was going to be held at 4 30 p.m i don't know what time that went out mr clow i believe went
03:47:39.980out earlier that afternoon around around or shortly after one o'clock and the decision
03:47:46.860at that point to issue the itinerary was to notify media the prime minister would have
03:47:50.940something to say and it is absolutely possible that the prime minister could have decided
03:47:57.500not to proceed down this path before he addressed the media that afternoon and it happens not
03:48:03.980infrequently on an issue that scenarios are planned a track may be on a certain track but a decision
03:48:13.900a different decision is taken at a certain point even at the last minute so no the decision was
03:48:19.420not taken until shortly before it was announced to media okay i'll explore that just briefly if
03:48:24.940i can let's call the emergencies act track one and let's call whatever the other decision could
03:48:31.100have been track two was there material prepared for a track two presentation at 4 30 pm
03:48:39.180if the decision was taken not to invoke the emergency act on that day the remarks
03:48:44.540and announcement would have been changed
03:48:48.460they would have time you're well over your time so you're gonna have to wrap up
03:48:52.620um last question but was there any draft material prepared uh in the event that the decision was to
03:49:02.140not invoke the emergencies act i'm not sure if there was you would be familiar if there was
03:49:09.180though wouldn't you but my point is even if there wasn't a draft this can be done quite quickly if
03:49:15.340in order to redraft materials um and it has happened before in different issues we got very
03:49:21.420nimble during the pandemic where we were putting out advisories for things where we weren't sure
03:49:27.020what the content was going to be a couple of hours later and that's what you need to do in
03:49:31.420times of crisis yeah i appreciate uh the entire panel answering my questions thank you very much
03:49:37.820Okay, now we go to the Government of Canada, please.
03:49:44.820Thank you, Commissioner, and my name is Brian Gover.
03:49:55.820I'm one of the lawyers for the Government of Canada.
03:49:58.820And good evening, Ms. Telford, Mr. Clough, and Mr. Broadhead.
03:50:05.820Go ahead. By my count, Commissioner, I believe I have 20 minutes with the kind donation from the City of Windsor. I hope to be substantially less than that.
03:50:15.820That'll probably be a happy event for a lot of people, but don't feel on my account.
03:56:02.580The third area relates to federal-provincial-territorial consultations and the first minister's meeting,
03:56:10.780And we have the readout at ssm.nsc.can50625, and perhaps I'll ask our registrar to display that, please.
03:56:23.000and perhaps i'll ask if we could go to the second page and
03:56:40.140you'll recall that my friend for the province of alberta said that premier kenny was clear that
03:56:50.700the Emergencies Act was not required in Alberta and referred to the situation in Coutts having
03:56:56.840been addressed. Can anyone on the panel assist me with this question? Do you know where the
03:57:03.980additional RCMP resources came from to address the situation in Coutts, which we've heard was
03:57:11.540the subject of a police operation in the early morning hours of February 14th? Mr. Broadhead.
03:57:17.480My understanding is that there was a contingent sent from British Columbia to assist at COOTS.
03:57:23.760And in fact, at the second page, we have Premier Horgan from British Columbia indicating that his only concern is that the measures would be implemented by RCMP and BC, which are already fully taxed.
03:57:37.680Not sure where you're going to find the people. We've already sent an RCMP contingent east.
03:57:43.220Is that what you're referring to in that respect?
03:57:45.280yeah and i would just add what what this illustrates is an example of something we heard
03:57:50.400from officials um in the lead up to february 14th and the invocation which was yes there was some
03:57:56.800progress in certain places and certain blockades but the progress was done with the help of
03:58:04.320additional resources in in certain cases so in bc for example it was definitely concerning that
03:58:12.080Alberta was cleared with BC not concerning it's good that Alberta progress was made with additional
03:58:17.760resources but BC was facing its own problems there were arrests at the Pacific Highway there
03:58:23.440was there was a military style vehicle there when convoy activity happened in BC so part of the
03:58:29.660concern across the country was was there enough resources across the board to handle all of the
03:58:37.620pop-ups that were happening and we were seeing in increasing numbers that weekend and Mr. Clough in
03:58:41.920course of your evidence already you've referred to this phenomenon of stretching police resources
03:58:47.120is that correct yes and this was in the context this conversation of declaring a public order
03:58:53.680emergency which itself involves a national emergency is that right yes now you were taken
03:59:01.200by the way to page three and what premier kenny said and if my friend from alberta said this i
03:59:09.600didn't hear it but she referred to uh if we look down page three would be problematic to declare
03:59:20.560emergency today uh and referred to what we see following the the next point starting with
03:59:29.040invoking what they see as martial law what we didn't hear was what's in between two sentences
03:59:38.480folks at the core of this movement are not rational they are prone to conspiracy theories
03:59:45.280have i read that correctly yes and was that to the best of your recollection a feature of what
03:59:53.360premier kenny said during the first minister's meeting yes can i can i add to that just the
04:00:00.160other one that i think uh struck me in his comments was this line at the bottom of the page that
04:00:07.920i don't quibble using the emergencies act which is particularly interesting considering his
04:00:14.000previous roles with the with the federal government in uh in that kind of national and i think
04:00:20.800there you know i i i certainly interpreted that uh as an important distinction between
04:00:27.040what he felt was needed in alberta versus what uh we knew we were looking at from a national
04:00:33.920perspective and having to take into consideration the stretch resources the diff the movement the
04:00:39.040differing um situations across the country and and mr broadhead to elaborate if you would
04:00:45.360when you refer to premier kenny's previous roles with the federal government to what are you
04:00:50.080referring i believe he was minister national defense uh in particular so that was the
04:00:56.880one i was thinking of right uh the uh and we're moving right along to the fourth area
04:01:02.320could we take that down mr registrar and could we go to and display ssm.can.407721
04:01:15.520and i come to this panel because i believe this was alluded to by my friend mr miller on behalf
04:01:24.400of the convoy organizers and i really seek your assistance in interpreting what i understand to
04:01:32.480be a note written by alex jerek first of all i've probably mispronounced his name but did you know
04:01:41.680who that is yes he's uh part of the issues management parliamentary affairs team with a
04:01:46.800focus on parliament and so a member of the pmo yes and if we look at this maybe we could scroll
04:01:58.320down just a couple of lines perfect thank you uh and we see uh something attributed to someone named
04:02:05.760rayal do you see that mr clow yes that's rayal lewis he's the chief of staff to the government
04:02:11.040house leader and uh this says uh confident will win those votes need to do more in senate to win
04:02:21.360that vote have i read that correctly that looks correct and uh how does that accord with your
04:02:27.680recollection of the discussion surrounding the pending senate vote around the time when revocation
04:02:35.440of the declaration i'm gonna object he's misrepresenting the document that document is
04:02:39.680in fact prior to the uh invocation though doesn't have a date on it and it talks about the announcement
04:02:46.240on the monday and it's quite clear that that record uh is in fact from prior to invocation
04:02:52.640and it actually says in it that there's no violence under the cesus act i'm not sure what
04:03:00.080the date is is there a date on the document no the doj never provided a date unfortunately
04:03:06.880i'm not yeah well i i'm just looking at it so it's unclear what the date is i guess is what
04:03:12.960you're saying it does say that it's uh before a monday where there's an announcement and of course
04:03:17.600that the announcement of the emergencies act was on monday the 14th on valentine's day
04:03:24.080uh if i may continue commissioner what i'm endeavoring to do is to ask for the
04:03:30.080panel's interpretation of this so that we clarify these areas okay thank you thank you very much
04:03:36.560and uh this continues and this is a part that i believe mr miller had referred to in his
04:03:44.000cross-examination uh earlier or his commentary earlier nes spoke with nsia and jody thomas and
04:03:52.800then there's an arrow s2 of cesus act colon violence not met new arrow wonder if need full
04:04:01.60030 days if Ottawa cleared, then speech Monday morning. Are you able to help us, Mr. Clough,
04:04:09.320understand the context of this? First of all, what does NES stand for?
04:04:14.500So this whole page, reviewing it, this does look like it's well after. It could be a full
04:04:19.340week after the invocation of the Act. Clearly, they're talking about the parliamentary process.
04:04:23.960So the first part, Raelle Lewis saying he's confident when the votes need to do more in
04:04:27.520senate so i addressed that in an earlier question that i know of no reason to believe the senate was
04:04:34.320not going to endorse that and as i said earlier the chief of staff to the government leader in
04:04:38.880the senate was doing vote counting and i believe that evidence was presented here and they were
04:04:43.520quite confident they would win that vote the rest of the page looks like more parliamentary process
04:04:50.800and an individual caucus member who is that individual caucus caucus member nader skin smith
04:04:56.960and whose view did you understand to be that uh section two of the CSIS Act uh had not been met
04:05:04.800it's hard to say I don't know what this refers to but there there was a public discussion going on
04:05:11.040about this very fact as there is in this commission but I don't know specifically what
04:05:16.080this refers to in this note right all right well we've done our best to interpret that and thank
04:05:21.520you for that sir sir sorry i'm giving the dates well i understand but we don't have a date for
04:05:27.840that document yeah and he gave his best evidence and there's not much we can do so please let let
04:05:34.160the let uh council proceed thank you the the second to last uh area has to do with the process
04:05:44.880that the three of you observed surrounding the decision to invoke the Emergencies Act
04:05:53.040and how would you describe the process surrounding the invocation of the Emergencies Act, the
04:06:03.920evolution of the thinking of the Government of Canada on that issue? Perhaps I'll ask you first,
04:06:10.800Ms. Telford. I think the process was it was we tried to be methodical about it. It was very
04:06:19.520step by step and it was seeking advice every step of the way from multiple parts of government.
04:06:26.640It was taking in a lot of different inputs and it was doing a lot of consultation throughout.
04:06:32.480And so actually even in processes that that are that often go on much longer than this one
04:06:38.080could afford to. I would say this is actually one of the more robust processes I've seen.
04:06:44.340Thank you. Mr. Clow, same question for you. Your description of the process.
04:06:49.180I would absolutely agree with that. I don't know that I have much to add other than as has been
04:06:52.660covered at some length here today and at this commission, especially in those days leading up
04:06:58.820to the invocation from the IRG and even before that, the steps that were taken were careful,
04:07:05.840considered and there were a number of conversations involving a number of senior officials and
04:07:11.040ministers ultimately leading to the cabinet meeting on the sunday night um so it to me it was very
04:07:18.160methodical thank you and mr broadhead the only thing i would add to what i obviously agree with
04:07:25.340uh my two colleagues i think um watching the incident response the incident response group
04:07:31.360And I say this as a policy wonk and somebody who spends a lot of time with cabinet committees and these processes, it really helped facilitate the type of discussion.
04:07:42.880Having the experts, the civil servants, the key folks at the table, all the ministers there, that type of open discussion, it just meant we could move at a speed that the other institutions, the other parts of our apparatus don't allow.
04:08:00.680and so i think that the combination of that and um and all the external advice we were getting
04:08:06.360i think it was agree that it was a very kind of methodical process and i think that i think the
04:08:11.560prime minister um was very clear about how methodical it needed to be um both in the
04:08:21.640both before and and uh and after so i'll leave there and finally our last question is to you
04:08:28.680miss telford if anyone were to suggest that the decision to invoke the emergencies act was
04:08:35.560politically motivated what would you say to that it was absolutely not uh it was um it was driven
04:08:45.160at its core in every meeting the prime minister began and ended and it was discussed throughout
04:08:52.600how do we ensure the safety and security of canadians and there wasn't time space or desire
04:08:58.760to talk about anything else thank you very much those are my questions okay thank you um any uh
04:09:08.280re-examination no re-examination commissioner okay well thank you uh very much for uh sharing uh
04:09:17.560for not sharing your thoughts responding to questions and uh coming to testify much
04:09:23.480appreciated and it's appreciated that you accommodated the late hour i'm sure it's not
04:09:28.360your first late nights but it is uh appreciated so uh i think we'll take a short break uh to move
04:09:36.120We'll move to the next witness and we'll take to reorganize and so on.
04:09:45.120So we'll take five or ten minutes for a break.