00:04:04.780They're one of the great places to make aluminum in the world.
00:04:07.500Massive amounts of hydroelectricity, access to the raw materials,
00:04:11.420meant that we are a strong, clean, reliable supplier of aluminum,
00:04:16.780that America, the United States, would buy massively from us.
00:04:20.480Well, the U.S. recently decided to put 50% tariffs on Canadian aluminum,
00:04:25.920and though suddenly the Americans weren't buying aluminum from Canada anymore,
00:04:30.480they were looking to try to increase their own production,
00:04:34.780which is not easy to do because electricity is so expensive in the States and not as clean.
00:04:39.880And the Europeans sort of came to us and said, hey, what you make the cleanest aluminum in the
00:04:45.300world and you're not able to sell it to the U.S., will you sign a deal with us? We said, absolutely.
00:04:51.300Well, Trudeau once said there was no business case for selling LNG to Europe. And he didn't
00:04:57.020mention that China has maintained tariffs on Canadian canola and seafood products, including
00:05:02.440lobster and crab. RFK Jr. has described Canada's euthanasia program as abhorrent and amoral.
00:05:11.740U.S. Secretary of Health, Robert Kennedy, told a Senate subcommittee this week Canada's MAID
00:05:17.260program targets the most vulnerable people, including the disabled. I think those laws are
00:05:22.560abhorrent. And we see in Canada today, I think it's the number one cause of death is assisted
00:05:29.220suicide and as you say it targets people with with disabilities and um and people who are
00:05:40.580struggling in their lives and i don't think we can be a moral society we can't be a moral
00:05:46.660authority around the globe if that becomes institutionalized throughout our societies
00:05:52.820main causes of death in canada remain cancer and heart disease
00:05:56.740MADE now accounts for about 1 in 20 deaths nationally.
00:06:01.920Well, the man who once dismissed Alberta's separation and the movement as a fringe movement now says it could become a real factor in Canadian politics.
00:06:11.380Former Premier of Alberta Jason Kenney told the Globe and Mail Ottawa may not fully grasp the seriousness of a referendum vote set for October 19th.
00:06:22.760Well, Premier Danielle Smith says a government website is being set up to give Albertans information about the upcoming referendum question, but she makes it clear she does not support independence. Let's listen.
00:06:35.660When you talk to people, whether they be politicians or voters, whether it be in Alberta or outside of Alberta, when you talk about a referendum in the fall, most people already assume that independence is going to be on the ballot.
00:07:08.960And so others are putting forward a proposal that would have a different position.
00:07:14.420And so it would not be a government-sponsored question.
00:07:18.620It would be one that would be a citizen-initiated response.
00:07:22.440And so we're waiting to see if the court will affirm that and allow the signature collection to be validated.
00:07:29.400I don't want to prejudge what the court's going to do.
00:07:31.720I believe they're going to be making their decision in May.
00:07:34.060Our guest today is Keith Wilson, a pro-independence lawyer who will also be taking part in a debate about independence with former Premier Jason Kenney.
00:07:44.420uh thanks for having me on all right paint me a picture of the day after a pro-independence
00:07:51.720referendum vote do you think that premier smith who is a staunch supporter of the federalist side
00:07:58.660should resign right afterwards i mean given her position as a believer in in federalism
00:08:09.220Would you think that that would be appropriate?
00:08:13.400Well, the Supreme Court of Canada was clear in its 1998 decision on succession and the
00:08:19.700Quebec reference, where the court laid out a legal pathway for any province to become
00:08:25.160independent, which includes the process of a referendum where a clear majority vote in
00:08:30.880favor on a clear question for independence.
00:08:34.140So, after that vote, if it's successful, the Premier is going to have a choice. She's going to either have to step down or she's going to have to lead the negotiations and the follow-up steps towards independence.
00:08:50.320The Supreme Court of Canada did not say in its decision that if a clear majority vote on a clear question, then negotiations for independence must ensue unless the Premier doesn't want them.
00:09:01.460So it'll be incumbent on her to make a personal decision.
00:09:06.640I'm hopeful that she'll be reactive to the will of the people
00:09:11.060and lead the negotiations with the federal government
00:09:14.880and the steps towards implementing independence.
00:09:18.560I mean, it would be an awfully awkward scenario, wouldn't it?
00:09:24.840And then after a vote, then potentially you're saying she could just flip
00:09:31.020and say okay i'm with the independent side now albertans have had their say and i'm going to be
00:09:37.340the person to negotiate a termination of our relationship with canada i mean do you think
00:09:43.260that that's a practical way to move forward i mean given her stance i do i mean it's only she knows
00:09:52.620the answer to those questions but um clearly the supreme court of canada which is the binding law
00:10:00.620of canada binding upon the federal government and all of the provinces is clear that where a
00:10:06.780decision is made by the people to become independent the provincial government must
00:10:11.920lead the negotiations and implement the steps towards independence so she'd either have to
00:10:18.280decide that's something she's comfortable with or not and i never really quite understood the idea
00:10:23.840of a sovereign alberta in a united canada i mean at some point you got to pick a lane you cannot
00:10:30.540be sovereign within the context of your being a province in another country you know what i'm
00:10:39.000saying maybe she could explain it to me one day in a way that makes sense i mean i understand the
00:10:44.660quebec experiment you know and the fact that they consider themselves a nation but they're not really
00:10:50.840a nation everybody knows that they don't have a seat in the un well that might that having is not
00:10:57.960having a seat in the UN might actually be a good thing these days. But more to your point,
00:11:03.200the reality is that what I haven't heard from anybody who's saying, let's fix Canada,
00:11:12.720whether it's Jason Kenney or anybody else, is how they plan to do it. Because first of all,
00:11:17.520it doesn't seem to me that other parts of Canada even think they're broken. I don't think the
00:11:23.680carny liberals think Canada is broken. They're quite happy having Albertans work really hard
00:11:29.440and send $30 to $40 billion extra to Ottawa. They're quite happy controlling our lives,
00:11:37.260providing us with MAID instead of health care and things like that. So I just don't know how
00:11:43.940anybody who thinks, who, it seems there, even those who are not separatists acknowledge that
00:11:50.940Alberta has legitimate grievances and that acknowledge that Alberta has good reason to
00:11:56.040feel that it's being treated unfairly and it doesn't have proper representation in the House
00:12:00.780of Commons and so on. But none of them have laid out a plan that I've seen to have it addressed.
00:12:06.300The only plan that makes sense to me, legal plan that actually has viability, is independence.
00:12:13.540And that's why I think an increasing number of Albertans are supporting it.
00:12:16.420Yeah. I mean, the cards, the feds are holding all the cards really. And there has to be an
00:12:24.340acknowledgement and they like the status quo to your point. They like the status quo, hold all
00:12:29.820the cards. So unless they are absolutely forced into doing something, they won't do it because
00:12:36.520they like things just the way they are. And speaking of Jason Kenney, there was this quote
00:12:41.500in the Globe and Mail. If they get enough of those frustrated federalists voting for leverage
00:12:48.420and you get, I don't know, 20, 30, 35 percent, yes, that creates a permanent divisive fact in
00:12:55.860our politics. It will turn the separatist movement from a marginal fringe to a real
00:13:01.560factor in our politics that will be disruptive for a long time to come. Well, this is the same
00:13:05.620man who dismissed your movement as fringe, just a small group of angry people who are not getting
00:13:14.140their way and making a lot of noise. But now he seems to be acknowledging, no, this could be an
00:13:19.860issue. And he's even acknowledging later on in that article in the Globe and Mail that, you know,
00:13:26.260maybe the feds are not really taking this as seriously as they should. What do you make of
00:13:30.820all of this. Well, I'm longing for the old days a few months ago where they were severely
00:13:36.320underestimating the independence movement. We enjoyed it when they'd say, oh, it doesn't stand
00:13:42.720to hope. We'd just say, I just keep telling yourself that. That's fine. But, you know,
00:13:47.800and I don't agree that he's describing something new. Separatist movements have existed throughout
00:13:54.460the history of the province. You know, the reason we have the 1930 natural resources transfer
00:13:59.660agreement in Alberta and in Saskatchewan that transferred control of all of the mines and
00:14:04.440minerals, which we now know is the third largest reserve of oil and gas in the world, from the
00:14:10.480federal government to the Alberta government was because there was a separatist push. The reason
00:14:16.480that Premier Lougheed in the 80s was able to get the amendment Section 92A to the Constitution,
00:14:23.960the last time the Constitution has been amended, to give the provinces greater control over resource
00:14:28.260development was because there was an independence push and there was actually a threat to turn down
00:14:34.900the volume of oil being supplied through the pipeline into sarnia from alberta which turns
00:14:42.240into the most of the oil and gas and the jet fuel used at pearson so we've come to these points in
00:14:47.360the past they simmer up i don't think it's anything new i think what's happened is the
00:14:54.340Liberals under Trudeau and Carney have been much more ideologically extremist.
00:15:01.300They're determined to hold back our oil and gas industry and other industries.
00:15:06.460And then they have these other ideological agendas that do not sit well with Albertans at all, whether it's MAID or these other, to be blunt, woke agendas.
00:16:01.840which they got in frankly a sneaky little way.
00:16:05.500The hope that they could extract this government in favor of one that's more in
00:16:11.140favor of economic growth and resource sector growth that's extinguished and i'm wondering
00:16:18.020if that's not worth another five to ten percent of support on your side what do you think
00:16:24.820well not only that how it happened this is the first unelected majority government
00:16:30.660they did it through floor crossing and effectively offering some form of reward that is not disclosed
00:16:36.980or is disclosed and is troubling to MPs who were elected and ran on another party platform,
00:16:44.180made a representation as to their views, betrayed the voters. And it was an affirmation for Albertans
00:16:51.540that we're not voting our way out of this in terms of voting in federal elections.
00:16:57.780It was an affirmation that the structural allocation of seats and how the party system
00:17:03.620works in Canada is fundamentally disinventageous to Albertans and not representative. We have
00:17:09.620taxation without representation. So yeah, it was a big boost. Carney generally though, I said this1.00
00:17:15.540right after he was elected. I said, he's going to be, my prediction was, I didn't realize he was
00:17:20.620going to perform at this level, that he was going to be the biggest proponent for Alberta
00:17:24.700independence that we'd ever seen. And he keeps affirming it. When he stood in front of the
00:17:29.380microphones a few weeks ago, or I guess a few months ago now, and said that our relationship
00:17:34.400with the United States is over, right? 90% of Alberta's trade is north-south with the United
00:17:43.180States, the largest economy in the world. We're closest to them geographically. And for him to
00:17:49.580announce that that amazing business relationship, economic relationship that we have with our
00:17:55.460largest, most powerful nation in the world is over. Really upset a lot of Albertans. And then
00:18:02.980he replaces it with a closer affiliation with China. Like, you really can't even make this
00:18:11.120stuff up. It seemed if I were to predict these things to you a few years ago, you'd think I
00:18:15.900wasn't mentally stable. So he is the biggest proponent. And then look what happened at their
00:18:21.020convention and then his video, YouTube video last weekend. He, you know, politicians and leaders
00:18:27.940usually inspire hope and he mocked it. He said, hope is not a plan and nostalgia is not a strategy.
00:18:37.800He used the same phraseology on that red tinge stage that looked like something from a super
00:18:43.540villain set when at their convention and his wife got up and then slowed down again the phrase.
00:18:50.120They could say New World Order like it's a new ginshu knife, but they go New World Order, like central casting stuff.
00:18:59.280So to your question, the bottom line is Prime Minister Carney has been the best booster of Alberta independence beyond even my wildest expectations.
00:19:11.040Well, we did have the MOU, Memorandum of Understanding, that was signed between himself
00:19:17.540and Premier Smith, who then took it to the party and touted it.
00:19:24.480The reaction, from what I recall, was not very positive.
00:19:28.300But has that not been much of a game changer in terms of Albertans' belief that things
00:19:36.920will change in terms of promoting the oil sector and exploiting this amazing resource?
00:19:44.120It's been an affirmation of how bad things are. And the reason is the fact that
00:19:53.720so much pressure has to be brought by a province to get Ottawa to pay attention to help unleash
00:20:00.360economic growth. We had RBC come out with a report last week about a trillion dollars
00:20:04.840worth of investment lost we had the canadian federation of business talk about unprecedented
00:20:10.840departure from canada of small businesses of job creators of high wealth taxpayers
00:20:18.280and the reason the mou hasn't changed the equation much is number one it's an illustration of how
00:20:25.480bad things are that you have to kind of negotiate some special deal but more importantly this
00:20:30.360right after he announced the mou um he simultaneously announced that he was giving
00:20:38.520premier eb of british columbia and the first nations a veto over the pipeline so it doesn't
00:20:45.080matter if every detail is negotiated and settled on the carbon taxes and the pathway project and
00:20:50.760all of these other features of the mou it's dead on arrival unfortunately because he said
00:20:56.520well there's not going to be a pipeline unless eb and bc agrees and the first nation agrees and
00:21:01.980they immediately stood up and have repeatedly said there'll be no pipeline so it's all theater
00:21:06.540i think it's obvious that mark carney still is in an era of climate alarmism he believes he's
00:21:13.720going to save the world there's going to be big statues of him um and he's going to make sure
00:21:19.500that there's a transition away from fossil fuels, there was a Freudian slip. And he is going to use
00:21:29.500Canada and particularly Alberta as a test case. Albertans are done. The world desperately needs
00:21:34.800our oil and gas. We should be supplying it. We're a stable supplier. You don't have to bomb things
00:21:39.460here like they're doing in Iran. You don't have to have wars like they're having in Russia and0.74
00:21:43.680Ukraine. Albertans can be a stable supplier. The only reason we're not, the only reason we're not
00:21:49.100one of the richest places on the planet Earth is because of the deliberate policies coming out of
00:21:54.580Ottawa. And like I say, an increasing number of Albertans are realizing the only viable path
00:22:00.300forward is not to amend the Constitution, is not to vote our way out of this in terms of trying to
00:22:06.300get the CPC in power in Ottawa and all that stuff. The only way out is to vote yes in an independence
00:22:12.060referendum on October 19th. Yeah, I mean, I think Carney's opposition to Alberta oil,
00:22:19.160the resource sector, has less to do with environmentalism than it does with his own
00:22:24.580investments elsewhere. And, you know, there are oil producers that are much more profitable
00:22:34.980elsewhere in terms of making him richer. And I know it's not a popular point of view, perhaps,
00:22:43.440but I believe he has financial interests that want to see oil produced elsewhere. And Canada,
00:22:49.760it would be a competitor to that. And therefore, that's the real reason, in my opinion.
00:22:56.160But I want to ask you about this because there had been some talk. And yeah, it's a little gray
00:23:01.980in terms of where it came from but this was a discussion that was had between uh jeff rath
00:23:09.260and a supporter in hamilton ontario i worked at stelco who apparently overheard a conversation
00:23:19.500uh from uh coming from the prime minister himself that suggests that the the government
00:23:27.180of ottawa in canada would use the emergencies act as an avenue in the event of a yes vote in the
00:23:36.700referendum and stop it in its tracks because they would see it as a uh as a threat to canada
00:23:46.780its sovereignty and its security and under that proviso or criterion in the act they could stop
00:23:57.180independence for Alberta for moving forward. You're a lawyer. Maybe you could address that for me.
00:24:06.700Well, as you may be aware, I've also been legal counsel to the Freedom Convoy protesters and was
00:24:13.100on the ground in Ottawa during the protest and was there dealing with the government when they
00:24:18.900invoked the Emergencies Act. And my clients had their bank accounts frozen. And I saw everything
00:24:23.560that flowed from it. And I also dealt with the litigation where the courts have ruled that it was
00:24:28.360improper, unreasonable, unconstitutional, and breached charter rights. So I'm very familiar
00:24:35.660with the Emergencies Act and seeing how it can be abused by this government. So I don't place
00:24:42.980anything in this stuff about somebody at Stelco said something or didn't. It's just unverifiable.
00:24:48.720But I have, prior to this, done an analysis of, well, what would happen if and when, hopefully, Alberta votes to become independent? And could the federal government use the Emergencies Act?
00:25:02.980And my analysis, legal analysis is no, because the process of independence is a lawful one, because the Supreme Court of Canada has made it part of the constitutional framework of the country that any province can vote in an election through referendum to secede.
00:25:20.780So there would be no pretext to invoke it.
00:25:23.880Now, of course, there was no pretext to invoke it against the protesters in Ottawa in February of 2022.
00:25:32.020So I think if they were to unlawfully invoke the Emergencies Act again and try and use force against Albertans, I think that would attract a significant international response and would have very serious repercussions for the Canadian government.
00:25:51.740And I think there would probably be a very strong response from our neighbors to the south, the United States of America. Of course, Alberta supplies 55% of their oil imports. I think they would be creating a national security crisis for the United States. I just can't see the federal government even thinking of going down that road.
00:26:16.980so you're saying a yes vote would then be followed by recognition from other countries
00:26:28.040most importantly the united states and then were things to get ugly which is to say well
00:26:36.760i know you might want to leave but you're not going anywhere you know uh you know what i mean
00:26:42.740like, like a spouse saying one spouse says, I'm out of here. And the other one says, oh,
00:26:49.720no, you're not. And, you know, we'll use whatever levers at our disposal to make sure you don't
00:26:56.040leave. And by the way, you know, we'll throw you a bone here and there, like a few extra,
00:27:01.880you know, seats and okay, you can have your pipeline. You know, I can envision something
00:27:07.880like that where once the stark reality of an independent reality of an independent alberta
00:27:17.200really hits these people you know like being hit with a salmon across the face
00:27:23.600you know that all of a sudden you know their eyes are going to open up and they're going to go oh my
00:27:29.880god this is real and we have to stop it what do you think
00:27:37.880Well, it's too late. The courts have laid out a legal pathway. The legal pathway involves a
00:27:45.360referendum. We're going to have a referendum in the fall. We've already had Tomic Lukasik here
00:27:50.600with his Forever Canada. He's triggered the threshold for a referendum. The Premier acknowledged
00:27:55.440that today at her press conference. So no matter what happens in the courts with the other Stay
00:27:59.920Free Alberta referendum petition request, there's going to be a referendum on independence.
00:28:04.640The courts have already laid out the pathway, if a clear majority vote yes. One pathway is through negotiation and a peaceful, amicable, mature divorce settlement. And the other is, as set out in paragraph 155 of the Supreme Court of Canada decision, it's unilateral declaration, relying on recognition by other nation states.
00:28:26.920in October of 2025, Prime Minister Carmi did the most remarkable thing where he announced that the
00:28:32.920government of Canada was going to recognize the state of Palestine's unilateral declaration of
00:28:38.600independence. I fell out of my chair. He refreshed that international doctrine. So if the United
00:28:44.040States were to recognize Alberta, I think the Trump administration would say, what are you
00:28:48.600talking about? You just did it for Palestine. How can you complain that we're doing it0.97
00:28:52.200for the new country of alberta other countries would come forward 92 of our trade is with the
00:28:58.600united states um and then if they're going to threaten things to alberta well there's a pipeline
00:29:06.520that leaves alberta and supplies oil to sarnia the refineries that turn it into jet fuel and
00:29:12.840gasoline and diesel that operate the ontario economy now they do get some other supplies
00:29:17.720from the US, but the major supplier is Alberta. If they're going to do something inappropriate,
00:29:22.280it would be open for Alberta to turn off the valve, just like Premier Lougheed promised and
00:29:27.880committed to do back in his negotiation for the amendment of 92A. And similarly, with British
00:29:33.800Columbia, they primarily get all of their fuel supplies from a pipeline that goes from Edmonton
00:29:40.760to the Burnaby refinery and the analysis is that within 5 to 11 days, they would be out of fuel.
00:29:49.720The airport would be shut down. Now, nobody wants any of those things to happen.
00:29:53.880Albertans just want to be treated fairly. We're the economic engine of the country
00:29:59.000and we allow free trade and movement of goods through our borders. $8 billion worth of goods
00:30:04.760from British Columbia travel freely through Alberta on rail and truck easterly. And we just
00:30:11.240want the right to be able to move our goods to market too. So an independent of Alberta would
00:30:16.280have leverage with the rest of the country, very significant leverage, reasonable leverage,
00:30:20.920and I think it would be exercised responsibly. And I think if the federal government tried to
00:30:26.120do something irrational or irresponsible, Alberta has the ability to prevent that from happening.
00:30:34.760uh and uh we also have uh i think friends in the united states that wouldn't want to see harm come
00:30:40.060to to alberta right you've got a bodyguard or uh i mean i mean alberta's gonna need its own
00:30:49.340military but i guess in the meantime you know you've got friends south of the border
00:30:56.620the canadian government couldn't you remember the spy balloon a big huge slow moving balloon
00:31:03.760yeah they couldn't even take it down they had to rely on the americans twice
00:31:11.440carney uh prime minister carney uh keith has never to my knowledge said that he would recognize
00:31:19.040an independence vote that went in the affirmative to my no i've never heard him say that have you
00:31:25.600and no that's a great question i think he should be asked that that's a brilliant question
00:31:30.480i would ask him that question and i hope somebody does eventually because i think
00:31:37.880canadians and albertans would sure like an answer what does he say no
00:31:43.780you know well and that would be an unconstitutional response because the supreme
00:31:51.640court of canada has been clear that it's the binding law it overrides the clarity act if
00:31:56.580If there's a conflict between the Clarity Act and the Supreme Court of Canada decision, that decision prevails over the Clarity Act.
00:32:02.740There are some things in the Clarity Act that aren't even aligning with the decision already.
00:32:08.280So it would be, well, you know, but he's not followed the Constitution already.
00:32:16.120His announcement after the MOU that he is giving to British Columbia a veto over the pipeline is directly inconsistent with the express provisions of Section 92 of the Constitution that give exclusive jurisdiction to the federal government to approve interprovincial pipelines.
00:32:40.840This has been affirmed not that long ago in court cases involving the TMX pipeline, the twinning. When the previous administration in British Columbia tried to stop it, the court said no. The federal government is exclusive jurisdiction. Once it's an interventional pipeline and it's approved by the federal government, the provinces have no say. First Nations have no veto.
00:32:59.760And then here he's ignoring the constitution and delegating that authority to the province, to the First Nations, knowing full well they were going to say no. So it's his way of playing Alberta and saying, oh, here, I'll give you an MOU so you can get a pipeline. And then he turns around and announces a mechanism so the pipeline can never happen.
00:33:19.620And then on top of that, we have a more core problem, which is his net zero fixation and obsession.
00:33:28.120And there can't be a pipeline, even if there's a route and even if there's no tanker ban, because a pipeline company needs commitments from oil companies to produce the oil and put the oil into their pipe and pay tolls.
00:33:40.840And the companies aren't prepared to commit to expand production because they don't know if they'll make any money because they're paying these carbon taxes.
00:33:48.000they're paying for they have net zero rules they have to deal with they have methane emission caps
00:33:52.940all of and and then the pathways project all of which significantly add to the cost of production
00:33:59.480no other country does this to their oil and gas industry as the industry leaders have said recently
00:34:05.300finally in the oil and gas industry no customers asking for this and no customer will pay a premium
00:34:11.300for it. So Carney's putting layered obstruction in because ideologically he sees himself as a
00:34:18.740superhero and he's going to save the planet by turning back the clock and moving us all the way
00:34:25.340from fossil fuels. And that's a very dangerous concept at every level. And Albertans are tired
00:34:31.520of being held back and tired of propping up the rest of the country and tired of the ideological
00:34:39.520direction and have great hope in what Alberta can become as an independent country.
00:34:45.640I know we have to wrap things up, but I mean, if polling suggests, and by the way, you better
00:34:51.360use paper ballots or however you're going to do it.0.99
00:34:55.780Just on that note, Danielle Smith passed a law about a year ago.0.99