Juno News - June 17, 2022


Lawyer challenging mandates says government must be held accountable


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Length

20 minutes

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173.1358

Word count

3,619

Sentence count

216

Harmful content

Toxicity

3

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Hate speech

5

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Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

The government has suspended the requirement to be vaccinated in order to board an airplane or train in Canada. But what does that mean for those who don't want to travel by air or train? And what does it mean for the rest of us who are not vaccinated? We talk to Keith Wilson, the lead lawyer for the Peckford Lawsuit and author of The Freedom Convoy, about all that and more.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 In a moment, we'll talk to lawyer extraordinaire Keith Wilson, but I just want to set the stage
00:00:14.760 here because the way the Liberals were talking about it yesterday, it's great news. They have
00:00:19.440 great news to bring us, some freedom for the peasants. Let's take a look at Omar Al-Ghabra's 0.95
00:00:24.340 comments yesterday. This is thanks to the millions of Canadians who rolled up their sleeves and got
00:00:30.720 vaccinated. That's why today's announcement is possible. And I'm pleased to announce that on
00:00:38.120 June 20th, our government will suspend the requirement to be vaccinated in order to board
00:00:44.140 a plane or train in Canada.
00:00:46.440 Okay. He was saying it was great news and we've earned it thanks to the vaccination rates. That
00:00:56.760 sounds good. That sounds nice. What they've done is made it so that as of June 20th, you don't have
00:01:03.220 to be vaccinated to board an airplane or a train in Canada. They've also suspended the vaccine mandate
00:01:09.280 for workers in those sectors and for federal employees. So you could, if you're unvaccinated
00:01:13.960 and you were laid off, theoretically go back to work. Now, here's the thing. It still is in place.
00:01:19.540 This arrive can app. You still have to be vaccinated. If you want to get out of things like quarantine
00:01:24.200 and testing. If you want a friend to come visit you, who's not vaccinated, they, they can't come
00:01:29.060 into the country. It's that simple. The air travel mandate hasn't even been thrown completely into the
00:01:35.040 scrap in where it belongs. It's been suspended. It's been suspended. If you look at the government's
00:01:40.640 messaging, they're saying that they have to be wary of potential new variants. So this could just be a
00:01:46.360 temporary reprieve, a little temporary taste of liberty before the winter comes around and we get
00:01:51.280 thrust right back into it. And obviously the airport situation right now, especially in Toronto, is
00:01:57.060 driving this more than science because you can't defend the indefensible. And one gentleman who knows
00:02:02.380 this all too well is the lead lawyer for a very significant piece of litigation against the
00:02:08.940 government on this that we have started with former Newfoundland Premier Brian Peckford, who is denied
00:02:14.860 the right to travel the country by commercial air because he's not vaccinated. And in doing so,
00:02:20.560 it's a large country. He, he, he got to Ottawa during the convoy. So you can get around it, but generally
00:02:25.720 speaking, this is not conducive to living in a country that supposedly has mobility rights within it.
00:02:31.400 Keith Wilson joins me on the line now. And I should just say, right before we get into it, Keith,
00:02:36.420 in the background there, I have my upcoming book, The Freedom Convoy. I spoke to you for that and you
00:02:41.600 gave tremendous insights as you always do, but it's good to have you on the show again.
00:02:46.160 I just ordered three copies. I was hoping you might sign them, but I don't think Amazon facilitates that.
00:02:51.240 So, hey, well, we'll have to, we'll have to meet up in person. I would, it would be my honor. And thank
00:02:54.820 you very much for that, Keith. Let's start right out of the gate here. The mandate is, let's just say it's gone.
00:03:00.740 Let's be charitable and say that the suspension will be permanent. Your lawsuit is continuing,
00:03:06.080 correct? Yeah. And, and, you know, we're going to talk about the fact that it's not gone.
00:03:10.980 I appreciated your intro and that you've picked up on the sleight of hand here by the federal
00:03:15.740 government. But so I can update you hot off the press here, so to speak. This morning,
00:03:22.700 we were in emergency application before the federal court brought by the federal government
00:03:27.360 lawyers. They are requesting that the Peckford lawsuit, and it's not just a former premier Brian
00:03:36.700 Peckford. It's also a number of other five other applicants, Canadians that we represent
00:03:41.260 with my legal team through the Justice Center for Constitutional Freedoms, as well as a couple of other
00:03:46.580 lawsuits brought by from some very capable counsel, the Carl Harrison case. And we're all consolidated
00:03:54.800 into one case before the court. So this morning, well, last night, we had a fight with the lawyers
00:04:02.460 from Justice Canada saying, well, you guys should be happy and fold your tent. And we said, no,
00:04:07.900 we're not folding our tent. Nowhere near. Even then, it was less clear than it is this morning as to what
00:04:14.800 exactly the government's proposing. But the position we took yesterday was, even if all of the mandates are
00:04:22.800 gone, to give your scenario, life, Andrew, we're still bringing this to court, because Canadians need
00:04:29.580 to know whether their charter rights mean anything. This government has completely stomped on millions
00:04:36.800 of Canadians' fundamental rights, not just with respect to mobility, the obvious ones, but having freedom to
00:04:45.840 decide what the government can force you to put into your body, religious freedoms and other freedoms.
00:04:52.620 So we made it clear and I made it forcefully clear to the lead counsel for the Attorney General, that no matter
00:05:01.160 what, this case must proceed. Canadians need to know one way or another whether the charter means anything, and
00:05:07.620 whether governments can do this, because as we all know, the number of times yesterday, the minister said,
00:05:14.400 it's suspended. We won't hesitate to bring them back in September. As Dr. Tam said, the next wave is coming
00:05:22.400 in September. It's like, yeah, you mean seasonality of flus? Yeah, I thought we knew about that. So that gives you
00:05:28.400 some context. We're going to move ahead regardless. We're going to have a fight about it, because they're going to bring an application to have our lawsuit struck out.
00:05:34.620 This morning, they were trying to stop the cross-examinations that are ongoing that I'd like to talk about later in our interview.
00:05:46.300 They wanted to stop those because they're occurring as we speak, and we were successful in getting the court to agree with us
00:05:52.740 that in the meantime, we carry on and the government can bring its application at a later date to try and knock us out.
00:05:58.780 Yeah, I want to talk about that cross-examination in a moment. But the first thing I would share with people,
00:06:04.040 when the Justice Center for Constitutional Freedoms was representing True North in our fight against the Leaders Debates Commission,
00:06:11.920 after we were excluded from covering the debate in 2019, the government had that action thrown out on the grounds of mootness.
00:06:21.020 We got the injunction. We were allowed to cover the debate. We wanted to carry forward as well to get this on the record.
00:06:26.440 And the government said, no, no, no, it's moot. The debate's done.
00:06:29.100 And then what happened in 2021, the Debates Commission again banned, not us, but Rebel News from covering,
00:06:35.880 and they were right back to square one. So, I mean, that's just one example.
00:06:39.740 And there are many more of why you can't just say or you shouldn't just say, oh, well, the policy's done.
00:06:45.320 You have no grievance because that's a very convenient way for government to not have a judgment against them in court
00:06:51.000 if they just keep putting these things forward, taking them back, putting them forward, taking them back.
00:06:56.040 Well, and to add some color to that, first of all, when is it that we are scheduled on this expedited process?
00:07:02.520 And we are working flat out, like we're in six weeks of back-to-back daily cross-examinations,
00:07:11.380 most of which are highly technical experts or government officials with technical expertise.
00:07:18.280 So we're working every day, six days a week, day and night to move this thing forward and get it to the court as quickly as possible.
00:07:25.520 Even with that accelerated timeline, when are we supposed to be in court?
00:07:29.660 You know, the week of September 19th, I believe it is off the top of my head.
00:07:33.800 So when is the government talking about bringing back the mandates? September.
00:07:39.640 So that's one sleight of hand. But the other is, you're right, they've already said mootness, mootness, mootness,
00:07:47.260 meaning for those who aren't legal geeks, mootness means there's no point in the court deciding 0.53
00:07:53.760 because the issue's resolved, right? The mandate's gone.
00:07:57.560 However, it is not uncommon in constitutional or charter matters to do a retrospective analysis.
00:08:04.860 It happens all the time in a criminal setting.
00:08:07.560 Something happened six months ago, someone got pulled over, the police did X, they didn't warn.
00:08:13.360 Was it a violation of someone's charter rights against unreasonable search and seizure?
00:08:18.140 So it's not unusual for the court to not, what's unusual is to have an ongoing reoccurring breach of charter rights
00:08:27.040 affecting six million Canadians, reoccurring every single day.
00:08:31.140 That's what's unusual.
00:08:33.240 So anyway, as you can tell, we're going to make an aggressive argument that this case has to be heard.
00:08:38.700 You know, I never like to get too conspiratorial and it may be impossible to deduce motives from government,
00:08:44.180 but do you think in some level they don't want the information that you're getting from this cross-examination process,
00:08:52.480 which I'm assuming is supporting the idea that there is no scientific basis for this mandate.
00:08:57.540 Do you think it's that they don't want that and that's why the timing is happening right now?
00:09:01.980 That's why they're ending the mandates now and then trying to get, or suspending the mandates and then trying to get this case dismissed?
00:09:07.160 Well, the legal team and I have talked about that and all we can do is speculate.
00:09:15.760 We don't think the cross-examinations have been going particularly well for the government witnesses.
00:09:22.040 And we think it's a factor.
00:09:25.640 What level of factor it is, because as we know, even his caucus has started to turn on him.
00:09:30.920 The fact that, you know, one of the things that I've walked the government witnesses through,
00:09:40.460 if I just might, because it's serious, but it's a little bit funny and I do it with a completely straight face.
00:09:47.820 And I say to like the epidemiologist or the person from Health Canada who approved the vaccines,
00:09:54.200 both of whom I've cross-examined, and I put to them, I say, all right,
00:10:01.880 are you aware of any studies or medical evidence that suggests cell biology and physiology
00:10:10.240 of humans who live in the United Kingdom, Europe, is different than the cell biology
00:10:17.200 and physiology of Canadians in this geopolitical boundary called Canada?
00:10:23.120 And they kind of look like, wow, this lawyer is not very sharp.
00:10:26.100 And they go, no, you know, human biology is human biology.
00:10:30.320 And I go, oh, okay, thank you.
00:10:32.000 And are you aware of the SARS-CoV-2 virus behaving differently in the geopolitical boundaries of the United Kingdom
00:10:45.320 and Europe, for example, relative to the geopolitical boundaries of Canada? 0.97
00:10:50.820 And then they look at me like I'm really stupid and say, no. 0.96
00:10:54.020 And then I go, okay, are you aware from your life experience and your review of the literature 0.96
00:11:01.420 with respect to disease transmission risk in air travel, whether there is something fundamentally different
00:11:08.040 and unique about the aircraft that are used to transport people in Canada relative to the aircraft
00:11:15.600 that are used to transport people in the UK and Europe?
00:11:19.100 You see what I've just established?
00:11:20.880 Yes.
00:11:21.080 There's no reason for a different policy.
00:11:23.140 Are you aware of any scientific information that you believe your colleagues
00:11:28.540 in the international health communities in other countries are aware of?
00:11:33.440 No.
00:11:34.740 Okay.
00:11:35.600 Well, I think we've just established this is political.
00:11:38.880 So, and I don't get to say that last part.
00:11:41.020 That's for the judge.
00:11:42.580 Now, I think that's brilliant.
00:11:44.560 And I think it points to an issue that a lot of people have raised.
00:11:47.660 Why is the science that we're supposed to be following so much different in Canada than anywhere else?
00:11:52.640 Why are our doctors so much more enlightened than everywhere else?
00:11:55.840 Or are our doctors, quite frankly, not?
00:11:57.960 And are politicians not?
00:11:59.360 And people can draw their own conclusions from that.
00:12:01.500 But I will say, when you bring up that question, that line of questioning,
00:12:06.080 and we look at some of the other court rulings that have taken place, not at the Supreme Court,
00:12:11.020 but on other things related to lockdowns and other restrictions, courts, it seems like,
00:12:15.520 have been very deferential to government.
00:12:18.280 And even when they've said, yes, a breach has occurred, they've saved that under Section
00:12:22.000 One by saying it's a reasonable limit.
00:12:23.980 And I guess the, I mean, I would assume on this case, and you can correct me if I'm wrong,
00:12:27.740 that it's ultimately going to come down to that Section One analysis, to whether it's
00:12:30.880 a reasonable limit.
00:12:32.420 But do you think that on this issue, that latitude and deference that we've seen is still going
00:12:38.720 to be a factor?
00:12:39.360 I don't know.
00:12:43.000 We're assuming it is.
00:12:44.960 And that's why we've adopted a strategy that I'm going to be careful not to say out loud.
00:12:50.860 And that's partly why I've not been doing media interviews lately.
00:12:53.980 So I'm worried I'm going to reveal the strategy.
00:12:56.340 We're very alive to that dynamic.
00:12:58.280 And I believe we have a very powerful strategy to neutralize it lawfully.
00:13:05.520 So it's a dynamic for sure.
00:13:07.400 And remember, there are some key differences, of course.
00:13:12.480 The early cases went when we were in the early phases of our whole COVID nightmare.
00:13:18.980 And by the nightmare, I more mean the government response than the disease itself.
00:13:25.160 So little was known.
00:13:27.520 The data was all muddled up.
00:13:29.700 You know, some guy's riding a motorcycle, pulls out to pass, it becomes a grill ornament
00:13:34.880 of a cement truck.
00:13:37.400 They bring him in, what's left of him.
00:13:39.160 They test him, always positive for COVID.
00:13:40.880 Oh, there's another COVID desk.
00:13:42.380 Are you kidding me?
00:13:43.300 He was on a motorcycle at a head-on collision with a cement truck.
00:13:46.480 Anyhow, so I could go on.
00:13:49.580 We believe that this vaccine was going to be like a vaccine.
00:13:55.200 In other words, stop you.
00:13:57.000 You get the polio vaccine, you don't get polio.
00:13:59.640 You get the pneumonia vaccine, you don't get pneumonia.
00:14:02.200 You get the shingles vaccine, you don't get shingles.
00:14:04.320 Yeah, our triple vaxed prime minister just got COVID for the second time in four months.
00:14:08.140 Yeah, well, and what's alarming too, not to digress, but just as a footnote, one of the
00:14:12.920 things that's really coming out is the people who are filling up the hospitals now, to the
00:14:17.460 extent there is any filling occurring, because even that's an overstatement.
00:14:22.080 But the ones that the group that is the largest group in hospital is the triple vaxed. 0.91
00:14:26.760 Those are the ones that seem to have the weakest immune systems, given the actual data
00:14:31.920 and the opinion of the experts that we've presented.
00:14:35.940 So when we look at this mandate, and I think politically, we could all see it for what it
00:14:41.100 is.
00:14:41.360 It's punitive, it's wedge politics.
00:14:43.760 I think it ultimately was prolonged after the convoy when Justin Trudeau wanted to get
00:14:48.000 back at these truckers that embarrassed him.
00:14:50.840 Your view is that this is not just one of the many policy options available to government.
00:14:56.820 This is strictly unconstitutional.
00:14:59.300 No government should have the right to do this, correct?
00:15:01.920 I don't think, yeah, I think it's a clear violation of fundamental charter rights.
00:15:08.220 I think it's a clear example of government overreach on steroids.
00:15:13.260 Yeah, that's our position.
00:15:15.160 And we're, you know, because there, as you point out to your listeners, that we're going
00:15:23.300 to establish a charter breach.
00:15:24.500 It's just a question of how many.
00:15:25.780 I mean, mobility for sure.
00:15:26.940 So then we're going to be into this section one fight.
00:15:31.280 Well, what does that mean?
00:15:32.160 Well, that means you're into the Oaks test.
00:15:33.740 And that is, is the infringement of charter rights demonstrably justified in a free and
00:15:38.300 democratic society?
00:15:39.420 Uh, uh, uh, uh, was there a lesser measure available to the government?
00:15:43.320 Is there a rational connection between the restrictions and the harm they're seeking
00:15:48.600 to avoid?
00:15:49.500 Well, the air travel one fails on that in spades.
00:15:54.560 Um, uh, and then is there proportionality?
00:15:58.960 Is there proportionality between the impact of the violation of rights and the good that
00:16:05.280 comes from it?
00:16:05.960 And we're, we're smoking them on that too.
00:16:08.460 And the interesting thing is it's really legally important.
00:16:12.240 People may not pick up on this legal nuance, but as soon as, so we have the onus to prove
00:16:17.340 the charter breach.
00:16:18.180 Um, we have to bring concrete evidence to show it once we establish it in real time, this
00:16:27.000 is very rare in law.
00:16:28.140 There's a onus shift.
00:16:29.640 It flips immediately over to the government where they have to present the evidence to
00:16:34.400 prove they meet the Oaks test.
00:16:35.980 So, um, uh, we're confident that we have sufficient evidence so far and we're only, we still have
00:16:44.220 cross-examination scheduled for every day, um, uh, from now they started in mid-May and
00:16:50.480 they're, they go up to, uh, June 30th.
00:16:52.580 And then we start our, our court brief and our factum writing process.
00:16:56.140 And as to whether there was a lesser means available, now I wouldn't support this because
00:16:59.860 I think it's, again, incredibly intrusive, but, but even if the government, because when
00:17:03.620 the government first introduced the vaccine mandate, they had a testing alternative that
00:17:07.820 you could use for the first month to theoretically give people time to get vaccinated.
00:17:11.700 And that was something that, again, it would have been a useless bottleneck, was quite
00:17:16.360 meaningless.
00:17:16.960 There are lots of people that test positive and would have no idea they're sick because
00:17:20.740 it's a false positive or because they're asymptomatic, but, but that would at least
00:17:24.620 not close off air and rail travel to 6 million Canadians like this.
00:17:29.140 So, I mean, that right there to me is a less intrusive means that the government didn't
00:17:33.560 even seem like considered beyond that first month.
00:17:36.540 Uh, you're, you're officially on the legal team as of right now.
00:17:39.240 Uh, no, we, we, we, yeah, we spotted that one too.
00:17:43.360 Yeah.
00:17:43.460 That's, we've, we've pursued that extensively.
00:17:45.520 Uh, you know, okay.
00:17:46.740 You put it to the witness.
00:17:47.600 All right.
00:17:48.240 Uh, a scenario, a doctor, uh, you're, you're vaccinated and you're sitting on an airplane
00:17:53.140 and you have a vaccinated person sitting beside you.
00:17:56.980 Neither of you have been tested.
00:17:58.700 It's possible you would agree with me, doctor, that that person sitting beside you could be
00:18:02.960 positive with COVID.
00:18:03.920 Correct.
00:18:04.260 And they could transmit it to you even though they're vaccinated.
00:18:06.980 Correct.
00:18:07.360 Yes, yes, yes.
00:18:08.400 All right.
00:18:09.360 Wouldn't you be safer if you're sitting on that airplane and an unvaccinated person was 1.00
00:18:13.920 sitting beside you that was tested before getting on the airplane?
00:18:16.820 You'd agree with me, doctor, that that person's safer to you and has a greater likelihood of
00:18:21.740 reducing the transmission of COVID.
00:18:23.720 Right.
00:18:24.040 You know, so, and have they answered that?
00:18:27.380 I'm in this cross-examination mode.
00:18:29.380 My apologies.
00:18:30.900 No, I'm, I'm curious though, if you're, if you're getting the clear answers on that.
00:18:33.920 I put it to you that the salt shaker is at the end of the table.
00:18:37.700 I say my poor wife.
00:18:40.540 Anyway.
00:18:40.740 So as, as we look at this then going forward, Keith, and I don't know how many people you,
00:18:45.540 you get to subject to this cross-examination.
00:18:47.920 And let me tell you, I do not envy them at all, but does it get to the, I mean, have you
00:18:51.800 unearthed or have you approached that area of finding out who actually made this call?
00:18:57.560 Because it often has seemed that it's not really the doctors that are making these calls.
00:19:02.380 It's the politicians.
00:19:03.220 And in some cases the politicians say that they're just completely hands off on this, but
00:19:08.040 is that within the scope of, of what you're able to uncover?
00:19:11.520 Oh yeah.
00:19:12.080 We pursue that every day.
00:19:14.140 And it's, I, I kind of, my wife and I have four kids and I kind of feel every day, like
00:19:19.860 coming home and finding the cookie jar empty and saying to the kids, all right, who took
00:19:26.060 all the cookies?
00:19:26.760 And they all go, wasn't me.
00:19:28.700 Right?
00:19:29.740 So, uh, what's become clear is they say either it wasn't them or if it was them, if they've,
00:19:44.240 so there's 16 government witnesses that the government has put forward, very senior government
00:19:49.300 officials, uh, properly credentialed in the right places, they say that, um, they only
00:19:56.500 make recommendation.
00:19:57.460 The decision as to whether or not the mandate remains or is in place or is revoked is a political
00:20:02.440 decision.
00:20:02.980 It's made by cabinet.
00:20:04.360 It's not made by them. 0.51
00:20:05.800 And then the cabinet ministers were parading themselves before the microphones for the
00:20:09.860 last several weeks saying, Hey, it's not us.
00:20:12.300 It's the experts while the experts have testified under oath.
00:20:14.980 It's not them.
00:20:15.860 So it's obvious that this is just a political process and they're using, uh, they're engaged
00:20:21.360 in a political decision-making process.
00:20:23.540 And it's just, it's just become obvious to so many Canadians.
00:20:27.220 What's really going on here.
00:20:28.820 We have, uh, we very much look forward to the trial and the other things you're able to
00:20:32.680 unearth there.
00:20:33.200 And I know you won't let them off the hook easily, nor should you.
00:20:35.700 And, uh, thanks again for, uh, for chatting as we were working on this freedom convoy book.
00:20:39.800 I think people will find you had a lot to offer and we very much appreciate it.
00:20:43.560 Thank you, Keith.
00:20:44.700 Looking forward to it.
00:20:45.580 Thank you very much.
00:20:46.400 Thanks for listening to the Andrew Lawton show.
00:20:48.760 Support the program by donating to true north at www.tnc.news.