Juno News - February 01, 2024


Liberals still want assisted suicide for the mental ill – just not now


Episode Stats


Length

51 minutes

Words per minute

167.2042

Word count

8,606

Sentence count

460

Harmful content

Toxicity

5

sentences flagged

Hate speech

3

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode, Andrew Lawton talks about the Alberta government's new policy allowing people with only a mental illness to access medical assistance in dying (MAID) if they have an irremediable condition. He also shares his own personal story about a near-death experience that almost led him to take his own life.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 Welcome to Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.
00:00:05.040 This is the Andrew Lawton Show, brought to you by True North.
00:00:12.840 Hello and welcome to you all, Canada's Most Irreverent Talk Show.
00:00:17.220 Here, the Andrew Lawton Show on True North on this Thursday, February 1st, 2024,
00:00:23.020 as we close out the week here.
00:00:25.680 And I will say on just a couple of notes,
00:00:28.740 I know one of the big stories of the week has been the Alberta government's release of this policy
00:00:34.840 that has been long in the making.
00:00:36.900 People have been awaiting for quite a while.
00:00:38.580 It's a, I mean, nominally a parental rights policy in some ways,
00:00:41.820 but it's really a comprehensive policy on how to deal with transgender issues in Alberta,
00:00:47.660 not just in the education system, but also in the healthcare system and in athletics.
00:00:53.160 And I know True North has covered that.
00:00:54.880 We're going to have more coverage of it.
00:00:56.460 I'm going to be talking about that in a bit more depth next week on Monday.
00:01:01.280 And you'll know why shortly.
00:01:03.180 I don't want to give it away just yet,
00:01:04.840 but I want you to just know that I'm aware of the issue.
00:01:07.220 I'm following the issue.
00:01:08.340 I'm going to be talking about it in a greater bit of depth on Monday.
00:01:12.100 And by then, I'll have the opportunity to have heard from Daniel Smith,
00:01:15.280 who I believe is having a press conference if it hasn't already happened today.
00:01:18.800 But that out of the way, I wanted to talk about another hot button issue here.
00:01:23.020 And we'll be joined by Michael Cooper very shortly about this,
00:01:26.640 the Conservative Member of Parliament.
00:01:28.220 But I thought it was important to discuss on a personal note as well.
00:01:32.080 Now, what I'm about to share is not new information.
00:01:35.920 If you followed my career extensively, I've talked about these issues in the past,
00:01:39.540 but if you haven't come across them or you have not,
00:01:42.320 or maybe you forgot about them because it's that unmemorable, I don't know,
00:01:45.360 or perhaps you just have been a recent newcomer to the show,
00:01:48.700 I just want to warn you, this is a heavier subject because it pertains to suicide,
00:01:53.420 which is an issue, sadly, I am intimately familiar with.
00:01:57.660 I've not lost anyone in my life to suicide,
00:02:00.120 but those in my life very nearly lost me to suicide back in 2010.
00:02:05.800 Now, I have dealt with mental illness.
00:02:08.660 I'm very grateful that I have been in an incredibly good place
00:02:11.840 for over a decade by this point, but it wasn't always that way.
00:02:16.180 I dealt with very severe depression and at several points in my life
00:02:20.680 wanted to end it all together.
00:02:23.840 Now, the reason I share this with you is probably familiar to you
00:02:28.260 if you've been following politics.
00:02:29.620 The Liberal government has committed to expanding assisted suicide,
00:02:34.000 assisted dying, or MAID, as they euphemistically call it,
00:02:37.160 medical assistance in dying, to people whose only ailment
00:02:40.700 is not ALS or MS or terminal cancer,
00:02:45.180 whose only ailment is a mental illness.
00:02:49.260 Now, the government claims this is a response to a Supreme Court ruling.
00:02:54.060 Indeed, the Supreme Court did, in fact, rule that the assisted suicide regime
00:02:57.220 right now is too restrictive.
00:02:58.980 But the government has accepted this at face value
00:03:02.580 and has committed to allowing people with only mental illnesses
00:03:07.300 to end their lives with state assistance.
00:03:11.420 Now, this to me is egregious and offensive and personal.
00:03:17.300 I don't often make politics personal.
00:03:19.020 This one is because I'm very convinced, as I've written about in the past,
00:03:22.640 that if this were the law, what they're proposing now were the law,
00:03:25.300 when I was going through my struggles, I would be dead right now.
00:03:31.040 Just let that sink in for a moment.
00:03:33.760 The reason I can say that is because I have always been able to get what I want.
00:03:38.420 I haven't actually.
00:03:39.340 That's a weird thing to say.
00:03:40.460 But what I mean by that is that I knew how to say the right thing.
00:03:44.440 Whenever I was put in front of a psychiatrist or a doctor or a nurse,
00:03:48.080 I knew how to say the right thing.
00:03:49.280 If I had wanted to show that I was of sound mind and it was a very clear decision
00:03:54.720 and I was aware of the consequences of it and I wanted to end my life,
00:03:58.080 I'm convinced that I would have been able to navigate through that process,
00:04:02.200 to navigate through all of the different supposed guardrails,
00:04:05.120 checks and balances that exist in the assisted suicide regime
00:04:08.400 and ultimately get the state's assistance in ending my life.
00:04:11.820 And I'm aware of that because I know that people who defend this say,
00:04:17.920 oh, but no, we're going to have all of these measures in place to ensure that
00:04:21.960 the only people who get it are the ones that are really eligible.
00:04:25.400 But what are those eligibility criteria?
00:04:27.560 The way the laws are worded, you need to have an irremediable condition.
00:04:32.560 It needs to be grievous and irremediable.
00:04:34.520 Well, severe depression that is so bad, so severe,
00:04:38.700 you want to end your life is grievous.
00:04:41.820 The issue is, of course, irremediable.
00:04:45.420 My struggles with suicidality and depression were at a time in my life
00:04:49.380 when I was convinced that it was irremediable.
00:04:52.320 I was convinced that there was no future, there was no hope.
00:04:54.860 Life was not going to turn around.
00:04:56.780 I was 100% absolutely assured of this, convinced you couldn't have convinced me otherwise.
00:05:02.000 If you had given me a picture of my life now and showed it to the Andrew Lawton in 2010, 0.78
00:05:08.660 I would have said, you're crazy, that's nonsense, it's never going to happen.
00:05:11.220 Well, it has. 0.99
00:05:13.460 So that's where mental illness is different than MS or ALS or cancer.
00:05:19.860 A lot of these degenerative diseases that are often associated with MAID.
00:05:23.840 It's why it's so different.
00:05:25.420 Because with those things, there is a trajectory and a path that we can predict with near certainty.
00:05:31.700 Now, things can take longer, things can take slower.
00:05:34.280 I believe in miracles.
00:05:35.460 I'm a Christian.
00:05:36.060 I believe that people who have believed that they are not going to be able to be healed
00:05:41.220 have managed to have breakthroughs.
00:05:43.080 That is not the case, as I understand it, with MS or ALS in cases that I have seen.
00:05:47.580 So the point of that, though, is that there is a predictability that does not exist for mental illness.
00:05:54.660 And it's also the old slippery slope argument.
00:05:57.680 The idea that just because we allow this one thing, we have to allow all of these other things.
00:06:04.880 This is why we've had numerous cases, not just one or two, numerous cases in Canada of people that have sought MAID,
00:06:11.020 even, by the way, before this policy change kicks in, when they are suffering from something that's not even an illness.
00:06:18.820 They're suffering from housing insecurity or instability.
00:06:22.200 Veterans that have called in, well, this was one case, veteran who called in to Veterans Affairs for a,
00:06:28.700 I think it was a wheelchair lift was offered MAID instead because, well, maybe we don't have a wheelchair lift available,
00:06:34.620 but can I interest you in assisted suicide?
00:06:37.980 I think it was Saskatchewan.
00:06:39.340 It might have been Manitoba, but I'm pretty sure it was Saskatchewan where one of their health hotlines,
00:06:43.300 you'd call in and it was, oh, press one for this, press two for that.
00:06:45.880 And on their menu was to press whatever number it was for assisted suicide because it was a request that was,
00:06:52.480 I guess, common enough or they wanted to be common enough that they put it front and center as an option for people.
00:06:59.680 There is in this country a culture of death which is being facilitated by the liberal government as it commits to expanding MAID.
00:07:08.140 Now, the glimmer of hope this week and why I'm talking about it now is that this change was supposed to go into effect in March.
00:07:13.980 It's been delayed and delayed.
00:07:15.180 It was supposed to go into effect in March.
00:07:17.140 The Liberals have said, no, no, no, no, no, we're going to kick it down the road a little bit more.
00:07:21.300 This is what Health Minister Mark Holland had to say when he was scrumming with reporters this week.
00:07:26.040 Is there a definite delay on the table?
00:07:28.520 Look, I appreciate that you want to get to the legislation.
00:07:31.580 It's coming soon.
00:07:32.320 I'm not in a position to be able to talk about what's happening.
00:07:35.860 There's going to be an election in this country by 2025 and by this rate,
00:07:39.880 it looks like Canadians might not have access to this, which your government is still committed to doing.
00:07:44.380 So is there, what's the time frame?
00:07:46.240 Well, no, I think what, let's be very clear.
00:07:47.620 There's going to be in the coming days legislation.
00:07:49.580 That legislation is going to exactly talk about what our plan is to deal with the fact that the system isn't ready at this point in time.
00:07:56.040 What we've said all along is that it's essential that this be done right and that for somebody who's trapped in decades of suffering,
00:08:06.340 that, yes, they'd be given of their own volition and choice after decades of trying everything.
00:08:10.900 If they believe there's nothing left for them and they're in an absolute state of mental torture and hell,
00:08:15.820 then they want to be able to make that decision.
00:08:18.340 But we have to make sure that it's limited to those circumstances and that we have proper controls and that the system is ready.
00:08:24.460 So, you know, we're being deliberative.
00:08:26.160 We're working with provinces and territories and with experts to make sure the system is ready.
00:08:32.180 There will be legislation in the coming days to talk about how much time we feel based on the conversations that we've been having is required.
00:08:39.020 We're just not in a position to be able to say that at this time.
00:08:41.120 I just had an opportunity to table legislation with respect to medical assistance in dying where mental illness is sole underlying cause with a three-year extension.
00:08:54.080 It will allow in two years for there to be a parliamentary review to assess the state of readiness of the system at this time.
00:09:02.540 I can say that I have communicated with all of my provincial counterparts.
00:09:09.100 I haven't had an opportunity with my territorial counterparts on this, but their response was very favorable, as I think you'll hear.
00:09:16.640 They really do feel that they need more time to be able to look at this.
00:09:20.360 I will state again that the question at issue here is a question of readiness.
00:09:26.280 We accept equivalency in the suffering of mental suffering and physical suffering.
00:09:33.080 And, of course, here we're talking about mental illness.
00:09:35.100 It shouldn't be completed with mental health concerns.
00:09:39.100 But I will lastly say that the time that we have to adopt this is limited.
00:09:46.660 We certainly are having conversations, Minister Barani and I, with our opposition counterparts,
00:09:53.960 because we have a looming date in March by which we have to get this done and limited sitting days.
00:10:00.160 But I once again want to thank the Joint Committee for its work.
00:10:05.840 So the committee process, really, on the Senate and House side has been completed through that work.
00:10:11.260 And the consultations they had and the recommendations were key to the decision that was made today in the legislation that we take.
00:10:17.880 This was entirely predictable, because when that initial deadline was put in, there was a two-year phase-in period for the mental illness exemption.
00:10:26.360 That was supposed to originally expire last year, and then it was kicked back to this year.
00:10:31.100 I forget the exact months and days, but it was going to be in March that this was going to ultimately go into effect.
00:10:37.320 And basically, it said you needed to have a physical ailment, not just a mental ailment.
00:10:43.300 You could have both.
00:10:44.660 But then they were going to say, well, it could just be any ailment that meets those criteria.
00:10:49.420 Now, if I parse what Mark Holland is saying there, he gave the scenario of someone who's been suffering for decades
00:10:57.400 and someone who's they've tried everything, they've exhausted all the options, they've suffered for decades.
00:11:02.100 That's nowhere in the legislation or the regulations that we have seen just yet.
00:11:07.280 The Liberals have never made that as a caveat that you need to have been suffering for decades to be eligible.
00:11:12.880 So if they put something like that in, I would be very surprised, because that's not how anything they've discussed to date is working.
00:11:19.740 So I think what Minister Holland is doing there is gaslighting Canadians to make it look like this is going to be rarer than it actually is,
00:11:27.300 to make it look like it will only be for extreme circumstances, when that is unlikely to be the way this manifests.
00:11:35.360 Now, I was just pulling up here.
00:11:37.780 There was a line from Dying with Dignity Canada, which is a group that basically wants,
00:11:43.680 if you take things to their logical conclusion, for anyone to be able to just, on a whim,
00:11:49.380 to say that they should be able to end their life and have access to this process.
00:11:53.100 Now, I'm being very glib there deliberately.
00:11:55.720 That's not, you know, the letter of what they're pushing for.
00:11:58.620 But if you follow their arguments, they effectively push for unrestricted access to MAID,
00:12:04.340 in the sense that any restriction and any guardrail that's there is always seen to them as being too restrictive.
00:12:13.080 So they were responding to this report from the Special Joint Committee on Medical Assistance in Dying,
00:12:19.920 which has recommended yet another delay, which is what the government's now doing.
00:12:22.960 And this is what they say.
00:12:24.580 We are disappointed and concerned for the individuals who live with longstanding, treatment-resistant mental disorders
00:12:31.260 who have been patiently waiting for the sunset clause to end.
00:12:35.420 Another delay is simply a denial of the constitutional rights of people across Canada
00:12:40.380 and a continuation of stigma, discrimination, and intolerable suffering.
00:12:44.880 At this stage, there is a lack of clarity on what this recommendation will mean,
00:12:48.680 and we urge the government to share their plan swiftly.
00:12:53.260 So what they're saying there is that there is a constitutional right to die.
00:12:58.780 And they're saying that right extends to people with what they call longstanding treatment-resistant mental disorders.
00:13:05.520 But I stress that this is not something that has been clearly defined or even poorly defined.
00:13:11.220 It's not something that's been defined in law.
00:13:13.620 We're just supposed to accept that this government that has been going down this road of unlimited, unfettered access to assisted suicide
00:13:22.040 as a matter of constitutional rights, we can just trust them and they'll figure it out.
00:13:27.120 How long until this is extended to minors?
00:13:31.900 Do you remember a couple of years ago there was that Quebec physician that was testifying
00:13:34.620 and he basically talked about involuntary euthanasia for infants as being something that he thought was suitable.
00:13:41.500 If you had a severely deformed or disabled infant, the doctors should be able to just go to them and kill them without consent. 1.00
00:13:48.840 This is literally what was being articulated by a physician.
00:13:52.640 I think he was the head of the Quebec College of Physicians before a parliamentary committee.
00:13:58.260 So when I used the terms earlier in the show that there is a culture of death,
00:14:01.380 I am not at all exaggerating.
00:14:04.800 And we have people in this system, by the way, that are all too eager and happy to push this on people.
00:14:10.700 I mean, the example of the chairlift is almost this strange novelty now.
00:14:14.580 It's almost a punchline.
00:14:15.820 Someone, you know, calls up and says, oh, I'd like some medical care.
00:14:18.400 And they say, well, can I interest you in MAID?
00:14:20.600 And, you know, it's not funny.
00:14:22.740 It's absurd.
00:14:24.000 And it's extreme.
00:14:25.020 But it is not funny.
00:14:26.420 One, people are dying because the government is telling them it's okay to.
00:14:32.820 People are dying because they have no hope because other systems have failed.
00:14:37.980 And people are going to end their lives now with the state sanction.
00:14:43.440 And to go back to my personal example of this, my own struggles with mental illness and suicide,
00:14:48.580 one of the things that I learned going through that process is that there are legal mechanisms in place
00:14:53.120 that prevent you from having your own liberty, in a way, if you are at a risk of harming yourself.
00:14:59.980 If you confess to someone that you want to end your life, someone has a reason to suspect that,
00:15:04.520 there are mechanisms in place that allow police to detain you, that allow doctors to detain you.
00:15:09.300 And this is done for your own protection.
00:15:11.540 Now, look, I'm a libertarian.
00:15:12.580 I don't like the idea of people's liberty being taken away.
00:15:15.120 But we are talking about extreme and extenuating circumstances here.
00:15:18.240 So why I share that is that imagine a situation in which today I go into a doctor's office and I say,
00:15:25.160 fortunately, I don't believe this, but I say, doctor, I want to end my life.
00:15:30.040 Under the current law, his job would be to do what is necessary to ensure that I'm safe.
00:15:37.060 Under the new system, does he give me a pamphlet?
00:15:41.320 Does he refer me to the specialist down the hall that does that, to have a nice, hefty, robust consult?
00:15:49.100 It's absurd.
00:15:50.180 Because right now, we have a system that is in place, that is designed because we realize that life matters.
00:15:55.880 That we have to value people's life.
00:15:57.740 And if someone wants to end their life, that is not something that we prescribe a treatment for
00:16:02.220 that is giving them an end of life.
00:16:04.720 The treatment is what we do to stop them from ending their life.
00:16:09.680 And it is disgraceful and heartbreaking to think of people in 2024, 2025, 2026,
00:16:18.440 that are going to go through what I went through in 2010.
00:16:23.300 And instead of being given life-saving intervention and care and treatment to save their lives,
00:16:31.260 some will, many will not.
00:16:33.740 People will be given what they think they want, which is an end to their existence.
00:16:41.280 And we in Canada are calling this health care.
00:16:45.760 We in Canada are calling this treatment, if you can believe that.
00:16:50.720 We are saying that is what you do.
00:16:52.860 If someone wants to end their life, if someone wants to kill themselves,
00:16:55.100 the medical intervention they require is not psychiatric care. 1.00
00:16:59.800 It is to give them what they want and kill them. 1.00
00:17:03.680 And this is personal. 1.00
00:17:07.480 And anyone who has ever gone through mental illness or has experienced a family member
00:17:12.560 or friend or otherwise a loved one who has gone through this knows how difficult it is.
00:17:17.620 And another aspect of this, by the way, is that you do not have the requirement,
00:17:22.840 if you're a physician that does MAID, to notify any family members.
00:17:26.940 And in fact, you are barred from doing so if the person, if the patient doesn't want this shared,
00:17:32.240 doesn't want this disclosed.
00:17:34.720 So you could theoretically have someone that is secretly going through this process.
00:17:40.360 They're privately suffering.
00:17:42.180 Or maybe they're suffering in a way that's known to other people.
00:17:44.680 But they're going through the MAID process.
00:17:46.640 And then one day, they go to the doctor's office and never come home.
00:17:51.900 And a loved one's wondering, where did Timmy go?
00:17:56.940 Maybe I'm being conspiratorial.
00:17:59.080 But you know what?
00:17:59.480 I don't think I am.
00:18:00.520 Because I'm reading the laws.
00:18:02.580 I'm reading the regulations.
00:18:04.160 And I'm also reading between the lines on what the advocates and activists who believe
00:18:09.700 that any restriction at all is an affront are always pushing for.
00:18:16.920 And I know that whatever legislation the liberals come out with, whatever legislation they eventually
00:18:21.580 bring, which is according to Minister Haaland coming out just in the coming days, whatever
00:18:25.780 they do, is going to be met with yet another constitutional challenge, yet another series
00:18:32.380 of concerns and complaints from activists that it goes too far against this idea of just
00:18:39.020 unfettered access to medical assistance and dying.
00:18:42.460 And we're going to go right back to where we are now.
00:18:45.040 And to be frank, I do not trust the Supreme Court, when it eventually goes up there, to
00:18:51.160 stand up for life.
00:18:52.400 Because it's the Supreme Court of Canada, the very similar composition to the current
00:18:56.400 Supreme Court of Canada, that got us into this place in the first place.
00:19:00.380 Now, I want to bring this out of the personal realm and into the political realm here for
00:19:04.740 a moment.
00:19:05.200 Michael Cooper is a Conservative Member of Parliament and joins me now.
00:19:09.280 Michael, good to talk to you.
00:19:10.220 Thanks for coming on today.
00:19:11.300 With you, Andrew.
00:19:13.620 Now, you're obviously on this committee, the Special Joint Committee on Medical Assistance
00:19:18.200 and Dying.
00:19:18.940 And I stressed this with my audience a moment ago, but I think it bears repeating here.
00:19:23.440 The government has not shown any desire to walk this back.
00:19:28.020 They're talking about this as a matter of when and not if, correct?
00:19:33.320 That was the message of both the Health Minister and the Justice Minister, Mark Holland, and
00:19:37.800 Arit Verrani, when they had a press conference the other day.
00:19:42.120 And that anything short of an indefinite pause, in our view, would be unacceptable.
00:19:49.400 Because there are fundamental problems with expanding made in cases where mental illness
00:19:55.380 is the sole underlying disorder or condition.
00:19:58.160 Yeah, and I've shared my own struggles and story with my listeners in the past.
00:20:03.200 As a survivor of suicide, I have grave concerns about the implications of this for people that
00:20:08.260 are going through now and in the future what I went through in the past.
00:20:12.040 But one of the things I find so shocking about this is that even before this change has come
00:20:16.620 into effect, we have heard so many stories of people that are not eligible under the current
00:20:22.560 laws that are still finding their way through the system.
00:20:25.240 So I think already there's a problem here that the government has not shown an eagerness or even
00:20:29.940 interest in dealing with.
00:20:31.900 Absolutely.
00:20:33.060 And we've seen many instances of abuse in persons who are vulnerable, who have been pressured
00:20:39.820 or coerced into getting made.
00:20:43.400 And with respect to made and mental illness, this fundamentally changes the concept of made.
00:20:50.760 When the original made legislation was passed in 2016, Bill C-14, it was sold as something
00:21:01.160 that was tied to someone dying, medical assistance in dying for persons who had the capacity
00:21:09.200 and who were suffering to make the choice to end their life just a little bit sooner.
00:21:14.940 This radically changes that into something that would be tantamount to state-sanctioned,
00:21:21.760 state-facilitated suicide impacting some of the most vulnerable persons in Canadian society.
00:21:28.200 Now, you're obviously, in addition to being an MP, a lawyer by training.
00:21:32.260 So I think you can probably weigh in on this better than some of your colleagues can.
00:21:35.720 But the government has effectively set its hands are tied on this, that the Supreme
00:21:39.180 Court made a ruling that said the previous regime, which is, I guess, the current regime
00:21:43.440 was too restrictive, and they've kind of been forced into that.
00:21:46.320 So what's your perspective on that aspect of this?
00:21:49.140 It's simply nonsense.
00:21:51.080 The Carter decision did not pronounce on made and mental illness.
00:21:57.240 This is beyond the parameters of the Carter decision.
00:22:01.040 There has been a law since 2016, and there has not been a single court decision that has struck
00:22:10.160 down the law from the standpoint of restricting made and mental illness.
00:22:14.420 This was a purely political decision made by the liberals in, frankly, a shambolic and reckless fashion.
00:22:24.740 It is what happens when a government, and this is a government, that has put blind ideology ahead of evidence-based decision-making.
00:22:35.240 This expansion of made occurred as a result of a Senate amendment that David Lamedi, as Justice
00:22:44.000 Minister, accepted at the last minute.
00:22:46.780 The liberals proceeded to shut down debate, ram this expansion through with an arbitrary timeline
00:22:53.760 of two years, and then said, let's study the issue after the fact.
00:22:59.160 And what experts have said, loud and clear to the liberals, is that this is not safe, this is not appropriate,
00:23:07.540 and it will result in persons who could get better to have their lives prematurely ended.
00:23:13.740 Well, you know, you're right to point out there, Michael, the problem with the process here,
00:23:17.280 because originally, people may recall, this was meant to have come in automatically after a two-year phase-in period,
00:23:24.340 and the government just said, oh yeah, we'll figure out the details in that two years, and they didn't.
00:23:28.940 I mean, there was no agreement reached, there was no resolution to this.
00:23:32.740 Now, thankfully, they at least delayed it to prevent that initial implementation, and here we are again
00:23:38.000 with yet another delay or pause, as they put it, but they were, in a lot of ways, going to just let this sneak in.
00:23:47.120 That's right, and what happened is, just before the phase-in, which was scheduled for March of 2023,
00:23:56.000 March of last year, 17 chairs of psychiatry, representing the chairs of psychiatry at all medical schools in Canada,
00:24:04.920 penned a letter calling on the liberals to put a pause on this expansion,
00:24:09.980 and they identified fundamental problems with this, and it was only then that the liberals introduced legislation at the last minute,
00:24:21.060 last year, to put a one-year pause on this expansion of May.
00:24:27.120 One year later, we find ourselves in exactly the same position.
00:24:33.660 At literally the same time this year is last, with a deadline of March,
00:24:39.640 the liberals are bringing in rushed legislation to put a further pause,
00:24:45.240 because the very issues that were identified as problematic with this expansion remain the same today.
00:24:51.960 And it's why this government, I would submit, just again, if they do for responsible things,
00:24:58.800 you just recognize they got it wrong, they made a mistake to go down this road in the first place,
00:25:03.420 and put a permanent pause on this, trying to kick the can one or two or three years down the road,
00:25:10.340 isn't going to change the fundamental problems that exist with this.
00:25:13.580 I mean no disrespect when I say this, Michael, to your chosen profession in politics here,
00:25:18.400 but a lot of what is done in the House of Commons and through legislation,
00:25:23.020 it has meaning and it has significance, but it's not life or death.
00:25:27.620 This is literally, I mean by design, by definition, life or death legislation.
00:25:32.100 And I can just use my own example, because it's one I know intimately,
00:25:35.840 but other people have come to me when I've talked about this in the past with their own stories,
00:25:39.060 who've literally said, I was at a time in my life, you know, five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago,
00:25:44.800 where if this were available to me, I would have taken it, and I would be dead.
00:25:49.460 And then you fast forward and life has turned around.
00:25:52.460 So the government has not, that I have seen, and correct me if I'm wrong,
00:25:55.800 because you were on the committee, proposed a legitimate and useful guardrail
00:26:00.900 or protective measure to ensure that people who are in situations like I was in,
00:26:07.560 and like other people have been in, will not access this.
00:26:09.900 I mean even yesterday, Minister Holland I felt was gaslighting,
00:26:12.980 when he talked about, oh, people who have suffered for decades and tried everything.
00:26:16.620 Even if that were the test, I've not seen that spelled out anywhere in writing,
00:26:21.180 that you have to have been going through something for decades,
00:26:23.720 and you have to have exhausted all avenues.
00:26:26.120 So that's not even a guardrail they've proposed, is it?
00:26:29.240 Not a guardrail.
00:26:30.220 The advocates have claimed that that's what would happen,
00:26:33.700 but then they oppose legislating it.
00:26:36.100 In fact, the government provided no safeguards, no new safeguards.
00:26:42.760 And quite frankly, there aren't any safeguards that would make this expansion safe,
00:26:48.520 because there are two fundamental clinical and legal issues.
00:26:54.360 The first is a clinical and legal one,
00:26:57.700 and that is that it is difficult, if not impossible, to predict irremediability.
00:27:02.160 In other words, it's difficult, if not impossible, to predict whether someone could get better,
00:27:09.020 resulting in persons prematurely having their lives ended, which is completely unacceptable.
00:27:15.660 We heard evidence from psychiatrists that a mistake or error rate could be as high as 50% of the time
00:27:22.760 on the question of irremediability.
00:27:25.240 And it's a legal issue.
00:27:26.460 50%?
00:27:27.240 50%.
00:27:28.000 We're talking about a coin toss here, basically.
00:27:30.380 A coin toss, another psychiatrist said they could be right 5% of the time or 95% of the time.
00:27:38.720 There's just so much uncertainty surrounding it, which just underscores the recklessness of this,
00:27:44.680 because if the liberals had studied this, had they consulted before deciding to do this,
00:27:49.300 they would have heard that feedback from leading psychiatrists.
00:27:52.720 And I would hope that no responsible government would, on that basis, move ahead with this.
00:27:58.700 But this doesn't appear to be a responsible government.
00:28:01.000 And, you know, the second issue that is a clinical one, fundamental,
00:28:06.220 is that it is difficult to accurately assess when persons are suffering from mental illness,
00:28:13.180 whether their request for MAID is one that is rational,
00:28:17.780 in other words, if they're competent to make that request,
00:28:21.220 or whether it is one motivated by suicidal ideation.
00:28:25.980 That's underscored by the fact that in about 90% of cases of suicide deaths,
00:28:32.440 most persons have a diagnosable mental illness.
00:28:36.000 Yeah, and there, I mean, just to put a fine point on that,
00:28:39.740 the request itself could be a symptom, which, you know, under current healthcare protocols,
00:28:45.000 a doctor would have to respond with a mechanism to make sure you're safe,
00:28:49.200 instead of, you know, facilitating this,
00:28:51.020 instead of giving you a pamphlet or a referral to someone that can make that happen,
00:28:54.800 which is why this is just so incredibly, incredibly disgusting.
00:28:58.880 And, you know, there were questions that Minister Holland was facing from reporters,
00:29:02.540 who I thought were quite good on this generally, saying, you know,
00:29:05.380 you're going to make this a political issue by delaying it closer to an election.
00:29:09.420 I don't think, and maybe I'm just overly positive or optimistic here,
00:29:14.480 I don't think this being an election issue helps the Liberals.
00:29:17.540 I have to think that Canadians are as repulsed by this as you and I are,
00:29:21.980 and I'm wondering if you've got any insight on that in terms of letters you've received
00:29:25.940 or people that have testified before the committee.
00:29:28.280 Well, the overwhelming evidence before the committee from experts,
00:29:33.740 in fact, just about every leading expert said, don't go ahead with this.
00:29:37.720 There were nearly 900 briefs submitted in the span of about a week,
00:29:43.400 which is very high for a committee.
00:29:45.400 In fact, it might be the most briefs I've had on a committee or a study that I've been involved in,
00:29:51.860 which shows public interest and concern.
00:29:56.200 And most of those briefs submitted by Canadians, including a number of experts,
00:30:00.980 was don't go ahead with this.
00:30:03.200 And although they like to talk about this in an abstract sense,
00:30:09.820 let's talk about what this would really mean.
00:30:12.680 Who would qualify?
00:30:13.800 What does it mean to expand MADE in cases of mental illness?
00:30:18.360 When Mona Gupta, who was the chair of the liberal-appointed expert panel on this matter,
00:30:25.620 was asked what would constitute a mental illness or a mental disorder,
00:30:30.080 she said anything listed in the DSM-5.
00:30:35.040 What that would mean is that it could include persons who are suffering from depression,
00:30:41.120 who have schizophrenia, who are autistic, who have issues arising from drug addictions.
00:30:50.100 This is what we're talking about when we're talking about MADE and mental illness.
00:30:54.680 Instead of offering persons hope and help who are struggling,
00:30:59.980 what this liberal government is doing with this expansion is offering them death.
00:31:03.860 And I think that's so fundamentally wrong.
00:31:05.820 And I think most Canadians would be repulsed by it.
00:31:09.180 And the more Canadians learn about it, they are.
00:31:11.760 Yeah, and also as psychiatrists have testified and said,
00:31:14.940 diagnostic criteria are not always simple on these things.
00:31:17.800 There's a lot of overlap.
00:31:18.940 It's not like you can do a blood test for depression.
00:31:21.700 It's not like you can just in a 100% certain way even diagnose someone with this.
00:31:26.580 How do you know this is just a mental illness
00:31:28.880 and not just a phase in life that's brought on by circumstances.
00:31:32.660 So absolutely, absolutely ghastly.
00:31:35.420 I'm glad there is some pushback on this.
00:31:37.320 Michael Cooper, Conservative Democratic Reform Critic.
00:31:40.240 Thank you so much, Michael.
00:31:41.200 Really appreciate it.
00:31:42.480 Thanks, Andrew.
00:31:44.060 Thank you, sir.
00:31:45.300 Well, I wanted to move on to another dimension of a topic entirely.
00:31:51.040 We can't just be totally about the depressing stuff all day long here.
00:31:54.720 As you know, I am in Washington, D.C. this week covering the defamation trial of Mark Stein and Rand Simberg.
00:32:03.760 It was a, I mean, it's a climate change issue.
00:32:05.680 It's a free speech issue.
00:32:06.720 And even though it's an American court case,
00:32:09.160 it is also one that I think has wide-reaching implications for free speech and discourse around the world.
00:32:14.200 Hence why I'm down here also because Mark has been a longtime friend and sometimes colleague of mine.
00:32:19.400 But one of the things that was quite fascinating,
00:32:21.580 and this was actually yesterday I didn't really have much to talk about on the case,
00:32:24.720 today I do, because in the courtroom yesterday afternoon,
00:32:29.920 there was a moment where it almost looked like the whole case was going to be thrown out,
00:32:33.640 which was just quite extremely, just unlikely on my part,
00:32:39.200 because there had been, it seemed there had been some doubt as to whether the plaintiff,
00:32:44.960 so that's Michael Mann, the University of Pennsylvania climate scientist,
00:32:48.060 whether his legal team had actually submitted as evidence the things that they said were defamatory.
00:32:54.620 They didn't appear in the evidence logs.
00:32:56.480 They didn't appear in the transcript.
00:32:58.080 It was just this thing that they assumed had been put forward but hadn't actually.
00:33:01.640 And the very, it felt like it in the courtroom anyway,
00:33:06.280 when the defense raised this after the point at which the plaintiff had arrested their case,
00:33:10.500 that they were pointing out, hey, we have no case to answer to.
00:33:13.780 You guys didn't table the one critical piece of evidence you need in a defamation case,
00:33:18.000 which is the statement you say is defamatory.
00:33:20.660 So there was a lengthy, prolonged debate and discussion over this.
00:33:24.840 Then there was a bit of a recess.
00:33:26.040 The judge came back and had listened to the audio,
00:33:28.860 because again, the transcript didn't show it,
00:33:30.440 and he found sufficient ambiguity in what had happened that he said,
00:33:34.460 okay, I think this case is proceeding because the evidence has been admitted.
00:33:38.560 But there has still been a motion to not even let the jury decide this case.
00:33:44.560 The defenses have put a motion forward, the defendants,
00:33:47.200 that has effectively said, listen, the jury has no legal basis or factual basis
00:33:54.280 to determine the defamation has taken place here.
00:33:57.500 So the judge is going to rule on that probably on the weekend.
00:34:01.220 So the case proceeds in the interim.
00:34:03.680 But it was quite fascinating.
00:34:04.760 They had an expert witness at the end of the day yesterday,
00:34:07.300 who's a statistician.
00:34:09.420 He's a professor who's been, I think he went to Yale and then Stanford,
00:34:13.000 and now he's at the University of Pennsylvania, Abraham Weiner.
00:34:16.600 And Professor Weiner's testimony was quite fascinating,
00:34:19.460 because he said, listen, I'm a statistician.
00:34:22.260 I am interested in this issue.
00:34:24.220 He's not one of these people that is a climate denier,
00:34:28.020 this evil, scary climate denier.
00:34:29.480 No, he's just saying, I look at the numbers.
00:34:32.360 And he thought that Michael Mann's infamous hockey stick graph
00:34:36.400 was featuring manipulated data and was misleading.
00:34:42.800 So how can you be sued for defamation when you claim that a graph is fraudulent
00:34:47.420 and misleading if you've got a statistical expert here from an eminent university,
00:34:51.480 an eminent expert, eminently eminent, and all his eminence and all of that,
00:34:54.880 saying, yeah, I look at the numbers and the numbers say this is misleading.
00:34:58.480 So I think that was quite a fascinating development in the case.
00:35:02.580 We'll see if, well, basically we'll see how the judge takes it.
00:35:05.920 And then after that, we'll see how the jury takes it.
00:35:08.020 But the thing is, the jury has just like, because if I were ever called for jury duty,
00:35:11.680 I would want it to be like some, you know, gory, glamorous murder trial,
00:35:16.700 a double homicide, something really, really sexy and exciting.
00:35:20.360 And this jury has gotten like three weeks of climate scientist
00:35:23.920 versus conservative writer and blogger.
00:35:26.420 So unless you're into that fight, which I am, and I think many of you are,
00:35:29.480 it's probably the short end of the jury stick.
00:35:31.760 And they've been going at it now for the better part of three weeks.
00:35:35.860 Anyway, in keeping with the climate theme, we started a series this week called Unjust Transition.
00:35:43.460 And it is, as the name suggests, a direct response and rebuttal to the federal government's
00:35:48.880 so-called just transition, where Justin Trudeau and his fellow cabinet colleagues say that
00:35:53.840 we can just transition away from oil and gas, everything's going to be fine.
00:35:56.800 And all of these people that are employed in the oil and gas sector, well, we'll find,
00:36:01.160 I just like threw my microphone cable in my face.
00:36:03.920 All these people who are employed in that sector will find something for them.
00:36:07.300 Maybe they can make electric car batteries or something like that.
00:36:09.680 So we've decided to work with the Modern Miracle Network
00:36:12.580 and tell the positives of the energy sector in Canada.
00:36:15.840 We talked earlier this week with Michael Binion.
00:36:18.020 Yesterday, we had the gentleman from Northback, the great Canadian-Australian mining company.
00:36:24.720 Today, I wanted to go in a different direction with it.
00:36:27.800 I sat down with Richard Wyman, who's an honest-to-goodness oil and gas CEO.
00:36:31.260 He's the president of Chance Oil and Gas out of Calgary, formerly Northern Cross, Yukon.
00:36:38.660 So not just out of Calgary.
00:36:39.780 We talk about the north in this interview.
00:36:41.440 So I thought it would be a good little primer into just how vast and diverse the oil and gas
00:36:46.700 world in Canada is.
00:36:48.160 This is my chat with Richard Wyman.
00:37:01.260 Joining me now is Richard Wyman, president of Chance Oil and Gas.
00:37:06.820 And you're the one for whom North of 60 is not just an old Canadian television show.
00:37:11.040 This is part of your...
00:37:11.780 It is.
00:37:14.180 We might be the only company still trying to be active north of the 60th parallel.
00:37:20.340 So the end of the Mackenzie Valley pipeline has caused most of the industry to leave, pursuing
00:37:28.640 shale opportunities either in Canada or elsewhere in the world.
00:37:32.480 Why are you still up there then?
00:37:33.940 Why have you not had that same, you know, reduction in optimism, I guess, that so many
00:37:38.220 of your counterparts have?
00:37:39.120 Well, the primary reason is it's our only asset.
00:37:41.600 We started this business in the fall of 1994, purchasing the three significant discovery licenses
00:37:49.800 representing the only discoveries in the northern Yukon from a period of early exploration that
00:37:55.620 began in 1955 and probably terminated around 1973.
00:38:01.360 And so we had it in our plan as being a small company wanting to have a large position with
00:38:08.080 some resources in a region that would be viewed for the long distant future as being energy
00:38:15.820 dependent.
00:38:17.740 And so as a little company back in the mid-90s, it was a pretty competitive industry down here.
00:38:23.800 And so we wanted to go somewhere that didn't have a lot of traffic in the sandbox.
00:38:29.280 And I did a thesis in my MBA on stranded resources for local markets.
00:38:35.660 And so that kind of got me into it.
00:38:38.080 But it's taken a long time.
00:38:40.600 And in the period that since we began, there's been devolution from being a federal jurisdiction
00:38:45.480 to a territorial jurisdiction.
00:38:47.820 And then modern land claims have led to some implementation of legislation and practices
00:38:53.760 that didn't exist when we first got involved.
00:38:57.700 So we're living in a landscape that has had its own economic ups and downs.
00:39:04.260 And because we were trying to be married to a local economy, it did have a big bearing on
00:39:10.960 our pace of activity.
00:39:14.260 And we have also had some challenges getting sufficient capitalization to proceed.
00:39:19.620 So we've had periods where we've had a lot of money to explore and spent that money.
00:39:26.920 And that exploration was aimed at beginning the process of evaluating unconventional natural
00:39:33.440 gas and crude oil resources in shale.
00:39:35.300 Yukon government imposed a moratorium on hydraulic fracture stimulation, which is a technique that
00:39:41.920 is required if you want to economically extract hydrocarbons in that kind of a geological setting.
00:39:48.860 So that ended up with losing a pretty significant shareholder.
00:39:55.660 And we've been doing our best to activate an exploration project in the same area.
00:40:02.720 But it's a slow process.
00:40:05.180 The governments in Yukon have changed and they mirror both the party composition, the minority
00:40:12.020 situation and the policies of the federal government.
00:40:15.940 So it's been difficult for the last few years.
00:40:19.340 Just on that point for a moment, because, you know, if there is a declining number of
00:40:24.540 companies that are wanting to invest and have roots there, why is the territorial government
00:40:29.500 not welcoming one of the last players or the last player left doing this?
00:40:34.120 Well, you know, when we started on this, the Yukon government and the federal government
00:40:37.900 were welcoming.
00:40:41.240 This is back in the 90s.
00:40:42.620 In the 90s and even through the first decade of this century.
00:40:48.240 But environmental NGOs have done a remarkable job of scaring people about fossil fuels and
00:40:55.180 elevating the climate change agenda.
00:40:57.700 But the reality is, in the Yukon, it is heavily dependent on energy.
00:41:06.880 Most of it has to come from the outside.
00:41:09.520 There is a little bit of hydropower generation locally.
00:41:13.740 But, you know, it's a mining jurisdiction.
00:41:17.740 It's got big geography, generally a pretty hostile climate.
00:41:21.640 So its appetite for energy is high.
00:41:25.900 And so, I mean, that was the kind of framework that we were trying to tuck ourselves into.
00:41:31.280 And the main non-government aspect of the local economy is wrapped around tourism to some extent,
00:41:38.760 but mostly mining.
00:41:39.820 And that's an energy-intensive industry at the best of times, especially when you're in an area where it's cold most of the time.
00:41:48.080 So, I mean, we try to position ourselves as being a local supplier, adding value to the territory,
00:41:55.380 trying to shorten up supply lines, and trying to contribute to security supply, reliability supply,
00:42:03.160 and affordability of supply, but also create economic benefits in a region that was, and still is, economically depressed.
00:42:14.960 So, I mean, all of those reasons still continue.
00:42:18.640 It's just that we haven't got quite the framework of uptake.
00:42:23.980 And I think the other impediment is that Yukon and a lot of jurisdictions in this country is a significant beneficiary of transfer payment.
00:42:38.500 And it's a big number.
00:42:40.360 The territorial government has roughly 10% of its budget, 90% of its money for its budget comes from Ottawa.
00:42:48.460 So your contribution or your industry's contribution is never going to dwarf what the government gives.
00:42:54.980 No, that's right.
00:42:55.700 And so there's no incentive for these governments to have genuine economic development policies because the bills are looked after.
00:43:04.320 I think if they were in a different situation, we might be in a different situation ourselves.
00:43:09.840 We'd be moving forward and building out resources that could serve the regional market.
00:43:15.860 And at the same time, in this geopolitical environment we live in today, having a presence economically is a very strong basis for preserving your strategic interests in the area, too.
00:43:30.120 So, I mean, there's a lot of things about what we're trying to do that make a great deal of sense, but we have some barriers that have to be overcome to proceed.
00:43:39.760 There's a narrative advanced by, I mean, some of those environmental NGOs you mentioned, that oil and gas development is antithetical to, you know, indigenous priorities.
00:43:49.860 But you and I were chatting just before the interview.
00:43:51.940 You said half your firm is, in fact, indigenous.
00:43:54.300 So what's that relationship been like for you?
00:43:56.460 Great.
00:43:58.620 There's four salaried employees with the company.
00:44:02.400 We used to have more when we were active, but that's still, to replace those bodies would have to come when we are cleared to do some more drilling.
00:44:13.060 But the staff we have are two Gwich'in. 1.00
00:44:16.340 So they're born and raised in Old Crow, the most murderly community in the Yukon. 1.00
00:44:22.840 It's in the area of their traditional territory.
00:44:27.080 And they're both smart people.
00:44:31.940 One of them is university educated.
00:44:33.960 The other one has been involved in the implementation of their land claim that was settled in 1993.
00:44:42.460 So his experience with the strategic objectives of the First Nation at the time that they were negotiating and settling their land claim have brought a lot of value to us and positioning ourselves in the same area.
00:44:59.320 And they're both great guys to work with.
00:45:02.260 You know, without them, I think we would be struggling even more.
00:45:05.880 Why, to bring it back to what you said about the territorial governments not really having an incentive to have development, I mean, is there a solution to that?
00:45:16.940 I mean, if you were to write a federal policy, would there be something that could be done about that?
00:45:21.900 Or is that just so baked in that it's not really, because your company, as you just said there, is in limbo because of this.
00:45:28.040 And you really can't grow without waiting for approval that you really can't control.
00:45:32.280 Yeah, I don't know if there, probably the one policy would be the transfer payment is getting cut and forcing the local territory to develop economic policy that would establish its own tax base.
00:45:48.280 I mean, there are mines there.
00:45:51.580 A lot of it is the placer mines that are still a legacy of the Klondike gold rush over 120 years ago.
00:45:57.580 But there have been mines that have been operating, aren't operating anymore, depleted or otherwise.
00:46:06.860 Some are on the books to go to development, but they're caught in the prolonged and unpredictable assessment practices leading up to getting permits.
00:46:19.660 But this is another area where, you know, if those mines were allowed to proceed, their energy requirements are huge.
00:46:29.380 And the Yukon is, from its own power generation, isolated from the rest of the continent.
00:46:36.660 So you need to have an energy producer there to meet that.
00:46:39.000 That's right.
00:46:39.480 So right now, there's about, I think the total power grid is something like 150 megawatts or something like that.
00:46:49.580 And around 100, maybe a little more, is electric hydro from run of river or dams.
00:46:56.620 And the balance is fossil fuel, diesel, and the liquefied natural gas.
00:47:02.960 But the marginal electron is generated by burning diesel or liquefied natural gas.
00:47:10.100 And in order to expand the grid to meet anticipated demand from mines that are going through some kind of a process leading up to development,
00:47:20.280 that source of energy is yet to be determined.
00:47:23.640 And I don't think any of it is large enough to justify these modular nuclear.
00:47:28.720 So it's going to have to be something like me showing up with some natural gas or a crude oil,
00:47:33.900 or it's going to have to be trucked from Edmonton or barged up from a refinery on the Pacific Northwest through Skagway.
00:47:41.120 All of which free about more emissions than having production.
00:47:44.960 I mean, it's all domestic, but having, you know, on site or in territory.
00:47:48.180 That's right.
00:47:48.640 I mean, there is a benefit to having local energy supply from reducing collective emissions.
00:47:56.300 It may not do much for the inside the ring fence of the Yukon Territory.
00:48:01.060 But from the point of view of the 8,000 or 9,000 kilometers of supply line from wellhead through refining and distribution back to the burr tip in the Yukon,
00:48:13.100 that's a long, long supply line.
00:48:16.260 And in this world that we live in, especially with the carbon taxes, that magnifies its cost in everything in the Yukon.
00:48:26.100 Fuel delivery, food delivery, you know, there's too many touch points from source to delivery.
00:48:32.880 That's why you end up with a $10 cauliflower or something.
00:48:35.500 That's right, yeah.
00:48:36.340 If you were buying milk in a Nubik, you're paying like $17 or $18 for a 4-liter jug.
00:48:42.820 And there's a good chance that its shelf life in your fridge isn't going to last very long because it's been on the road for 10 days.
00:48:50.700 Yeah, so that kind of stuff is a common theme.
00:48:53.940 So, you know, I'd like to think that, you know, we bring a good idea.
00:48:58.100 I mean, it's expiration still, so that the resource mass is yet to be defined that would allow you to flick the light switch on.
00:49:05.380 But you've got to start somewhere.
00:49:07.600 And it's the bleeding edge of the industry is the expiration side of it.
00:49:12.940 But if it does work, it could have a profoundly positive impact on the Yukon itself, both from a government revenue point of view, but also on the local First Nation communities that are sharing traditional territory or bordering on each other in the northern Yukon.
00:49:31.860 There's nothing much going on otherwise.
00:49:34.460 Wow, wonderful.
00:49:35.180 I hope you'll be able to have some certainty.
00:49:37.100 I mean, how long is this process for you of getting that approval?
00:49:40.060 Well, COVID kind of threw a bit of a monkey wrench in the timing.
00:49:48.620 But so we started this process of engagement with the First Nations on a multi-year exploration project in 2017.
00:50:00.720 And we've been working on it ever since.
00:50:03.000 And there was a hiatus with COVID, as you might imagine, in the north where medical facilities are a bit limited.
00:50:11.560 Keeping the virus out was a preferred objective.
00:50:16.720 And the First Nations themselves have a long memory of epidemics wiping out their populations from a history of Europeans traversing their territory over the last few centuries.
00:50:28.280 So the nervousness was high.
00:50:31.120 And so we had to take a bit of a breather through that.
00:50:34.680 But in the last year or so, I think pace has picked up.
00:50:39.040 And so we're moving forward.
00:50:40.940 But still, it's going to take probably two to three more years before we clear the impact assessments and regular short approval process.
00:50:49.840 Richard Wyman, Chance Oil & Gas.
00:50:51.300 Thank you very much.
00:50:52.160 Thank you, Andrew.
00:50:53.660 We will have more from our Unjust Transition series next week on The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:50:58.880 And as always, all of these are uploaded as standalones as well.
00:51:01.560 So if you're interested in this and maybe you don't care as much about the assisted suicide stuff, you can parcel them out.
00:51:06.180 Or maybe you care about the assisted suicide stuff and not this.
00:51:08.780 You can also do that too.
00:51:10.460 In any event, that does it for us for today and for this week.
00:51:13.860 We'll be back on Monday with more of Canada's most irreverent talk show.
00:51:17.780 Thank you.
00:51:18.240 God bless.
00:51:18.680 And good day to you all.
00:51:20.440 Thanks for listening to The Andrew Lawton Show.
00:51:22.720 Support the program by donating to True North at www.tnc.news.