Juno News - Libertarian leader wants a freedom lens for government policy

00:00:00.000 You're tuned in to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:00:06.360 Welcome back to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:00:08.700 Well, obviously, the 2021 election is done,

00:00:11.420 but for most parties and political movers,

00:00:13.960 the fight for the next election,

00:00:15.640 whether that comes in 2023 or 2025,

00:00:18.620 whenever it is, is still underway.

00:00:21.220 And we always try to do things a little bit differently

00:00:23.360 at True North and spotlight some of the parties

00:00:25.480 and leaders who don't necessarily get attention

00:00:27.660 from the mainstream media,

00:00:29.260 but whose perspectives are nonetheless very significant

00:00:32.240 and certainly part of the Canadian political fabric.

00:00:35.560 And I wanted to do exactly that this segment,

00:00:37.460 talk to the leader of the Libertarian Party of Canada,

00:00:40.340 Jacques Boudreau.

00:00:41.480 Now, Jacques is a relatively new leader to the party,

00:00:44.820 as we'll talk about in just a moment.

00:00:46.540 Tim Moen, I had on the show previously,

00:00:48.760 was the former leader.

00:00:50.420 But I should say right out of the gate,

00:00:52.440 Jacques and I have a bit of a history,

00:00:53.860 not a bad history,

00:00:54.780 but when I ran as a candidate in London West

00:00:57.080 for the Progressive Conservative Party of Méditero in 2018,

00:01:01.220 he was the Libertarian candidate in that riding.

00:01:05.160 And we both lost.

00:01:06.640 He's now moved on to leading a party,

00:01:08.320 and I've just run as far from politics as I can.

00:01:11.140 But it's great to talk to you again.

00:01:12.640 Jacques Boudreau, thanks very much for coming on today.

00:01:15.060 Thank you, Andrew.

00:01:16.060 It's great to see you again.

00:01:17.140 So how did you end up the leader?

00:01:20.180 Let's start there.

00:01:20.880 Why did you want that job,

00:01:22.220 and how did you get there?

00:01:24.280 So we had a convention in Edmonton

00:01:26.880 the weekend of August 14th and 15th.

00:01:29.840 In leading up to that,

00:01:31.460 the position of deputy leader was vacant,

00:01:34.740 and I had made up my mind that

00:01:36.960 I would be a good candidate for it,

00:01:40.920 if only because I'm bilingual.

00:01:43.160 I thought Tim did a great job,

00:01:46.200 but in order to get traction in French-speaking Canada,

00:01:49.340 I thought, well, that would be pretty good.

00:01:52.180 But then a few weeks before,

00:01:54.660 Tim announced that he had done his bit

00:01:58.220 and needed to move on.

00:02:01.340 And I thought, well, deputy leader, leader,

00:02:05.140 why not go for it?

00:02:07.520 I mean, I...

00:02:08.240 And of course, jumping right into the busy season,

00:02:11.460 heading into an election, of course, too.

00:02:13.440 Well, I don't know if it's a bad or a good omen,

00:02:16.040 but I was elected on the 15th,

00:02:18.460 which is when the election was called, so...

00:02:21.140 There we go.

00:02:22.460 Let me go back to the basics here in a lot of ways,

00:02:24.960 because I know for people that are involved in,

00:02:27.000 you know, politics and have had

00:02:28.480 even some background in political theory, perhaps,

00:02:30.860 the word libertarian takes on a meaning

00:02:33.180 that it might not have for the average Canadian.

00:02:35.800 How do you define what a libertarian is,

00:02:38.620 either in general or just in a Canadian political context,

00:02:41.860 such as the Libertarian Party of Canada?

00:02:45.540 Well, as you know, there are different

00:02:48.380 hues or colours of libertarianism,

00:02:52.420 but to my mind, a libertarian is anybody

00:02:55.260 who abides on a consistent basis

00:02:57.840 to the non-aggression principle.

00:02:59.540 And for those who don't know it,

00:03:01.860 it's very, very simple.

00:03:03.460 It's that the initiation

00:03:05.400 or the threat of initiation of force

00:03:07.220 against the innocent is wrong.

00:03:09.100 And by innocent here,

00:03:10.500 again, because you need to define these things,

00:03:13.000 is anyone who does not engage in the,

00:03:17.180 what I like to refer to as the shall nots, right? 1.00

00:03:19.860 So if you don't engage in murder,

00:03:22.480 beating up, raping, stealing, 0.74

00:03:26.220 then you are innocent.

00:03:29.160 And it's, I would say from that perspective,

00:03:31.200 we are very at odds with most of the parties

00:03:34.180 who will regularly vote, for example,

00:03:39.960 for laws that would outlaw things

00:03:42.920 that they don't like.

00:03:44.840 But not liking something is very, very different

00:03:48.200 from outlawing something that is wrong

00:03:54.000 in the sense that, you know,

00:03:55.780 if there's aggression, of course,

00:03:56.980 you want to outlaw it,

00:03:58.520 but you shouldn't outlaw things

00:04:00.780 that you simply disagree with.

00:04:02.800 And, you know, I can think of two very good examples

00:04:06.260 of this in Quebec right now,

00:04:07.540 where people have learned nothing from history.

00:04:11.280 You know, well, the very, very recent one

00:04:14.160 is all the heat that the president

00:04:18.820 of Air Canada is taking

00:04:21.220 because he doesn't speak French.

00:04:24.660 Now, maybe you're offended by this.

00:04:27.260 Maybe you think it's poor marketing,

00:04:31.160 and we could argue that maybe those are,

00:04:33.560 but he's certainly not aggressing anybody

00:04:35.920 by not speaking French.

00:04:37.760 So people who are calling for draconian measures

00:04:40.400 to compel him to do so

00:04:42.120 from a libertarian point of view

00:04:43.680 or completely wrong.

00:04:45.440 More egregious is Bill 21 in Quebec,

00:04:48.520 where, again,

00:04:50.320 if you wear a religious symbol on the job,

00:04:53.300 you are not aggressing anybody.

00:04:55.540 Now, if you don't like it,

00:04:57.380 from a libertarian point of view,

00:04:58.620 it would be, well, that's tough,

00:04:59.900 but you can't start at gunpoint

00:05:02.220 telling people what they can or cannot do

00:05:05.580 simply because you don't like what they do.

00:05:07.580 So I would say it's a very marked difference

00:05:11.520 between us and the other parties

00:05:13.360 who, again, will engage in this type of behavior

00:05:15.480 on a regular basis.

00:05:17.120 Because another thing that is confused greatly

00:05:22.040 is, and François Legault actually made that point,

00:05:26.120 he said, well, Bill 21 is okay

00:05:29.060 because the majority of Quebecers approve of it,

00:05:31.380 and moreover, it was passed democratically,

00:05:34.980 to which I say, well,

00:05:36.480 you are confusing what is legal with what is moral, right?

00:05:39.960 You've made it legal, but it's still immoral.

00:05:42.860 And, you know, there's all kinds of examples

00:05:44.520 of this throughout the history of mankind.

00:05:46.820 I mean, apartheid was legal, 1.00

00:05:49.260 segregation in the southern U.S. was legal, 0.52

00:05:53.620 you know, Hitler came into power 0.94

00:05:55.580 through democratic means.

00:05:57.480 So there's all kinds of examples

00:05:59.340 where you can't confuse morality with legality.

00:06:03.700 I think you touched on something very important, though, Jacques,

00:06:06.580 and this is, I'd say, one of my biggest frustrations

00:06:09.460 in Canadian politics right now,

00:06:11.780 and it's probably not a distinctly Canadian phenomenon,

00:06:14.360 is that so many people are unwilling

00:06:16.600 to make that distinction.

00:06:17.860 You see this especially in the context

00:06:20.200 of so-called hate speech laws,

00:06:22.000 where people say, you know,

00:06:23.020 because I dislike that speech,

00:06:24.780 I deplore that speech,

00:06:26.100 it should therefore be illegal.

00:06:28.220 How do you break through that?

00:06:29.500 Because I think that what everyone should do

00:06:31.580 is just do exactly what you said,

00:06:33.540 just live their lives

00:06:34.740 as long as they're not aggressing on others,

00:06:36.360 as long as they're not infringing on others' liberties.

00:06:38.460 But so many people want to equate those two

00:06:41.580 and link those two, the legal and the moral.

00:06:44.360 Well, so first of all, just to be crystal clear,

00:06:47.740 the Libertarian Party of Canada

00:06:49.280 is certainly not opposed to the criminal aspect

00:06:52.460 of what, you know, the criminal laws

00:06:54.340 that we have with regard to hate speech.

00:06:56.400 I mean, in terms of aggressing people,

00:06:58.700 we don't condone or favour anybody

00:07:01.740 who would, you know,

00:07:05.460 sort of bring up hate against other people

00:07:08.200 or encourage violence against certain groups.

00:07:10.540 So we're fine with that.

00:07:11.520 Well, if I may, though, Jacques,

00:07:13.260 those are very different things.

00:07:14.800 Encouraging violence,

00:07:15.660 you can argue that's a threat

00:07:17.400 that infringes on other liberties.

00:07:19.340 Where do you draw that line, though?

00:07:20.840 Because bringing up hate, that's an emotion.

00:07:22.880 And we have in Canada a very significant debate

00:07:25.940 about where that line is drawn.

00:07:27.460 So where would you draw it?

00:07:28.620 Yeah, sorry, I misspoke.

00:07:30.040 I mean, I would say anybody who incite violence

00:07:32.240 against a group out of hate.

00:07:34.160 Okay, good, good.

00:07:34.620 No, I mean, part of the battle,

00:07:38.560 to answer your question, is, of course,

00:07:39.880 is that we've had legal judgments

00:07:42.760 where stating facts that are verifiable

00:07:47.040 could constitute hate speech.

00:07:49.560 I mean, that was a terrible, terrible judgment.

00:07:51.780 I mean, I'm still trying to wrap my head

00:07:54.840 around how one could come to that.

00:07:56.880 I mean, to address your point,

00:07:59.640 I would say that I would point to people

00:08:02.240 that at some point,

00:08:03.760 they will be on the receiving end

00:08:05.760 of these types of laws.

00:08:07.960 Like, one day, they will express an opinion.

00:08:10.420 And we see this on the left all the time.

00:08:12.380 I mean, I think it was on your show last week,

00:08:14.960 possibly, where, or maybe it was Candace,

00:08:18.800 but talking about how Margaret Atwood.

00:08:23.800 Oh, yeah.

00:08:24.540 You know, suddenly, you know,

00:08:27.500 people turned on her

00:08:28.480 because she expressed an opinion

00:08:29.700 that people didn't like.

00:08:31.700 So, one way that I would try

00:08:33.780 to get through to people is,

00:08:35.100 you know, you just wait.

00:08:36.080 At some point, you will express an opinion

00:08:37.700 that people will not like.

00:08:39.000 And again, it's not because they don't like it

00:08:40.580 that it constitutes hate speech.

00:08:44.040 And, you know, could try to point to past examples,

00:08:46.820 you know, like Margaret Atwood or other people.

00:08:50.880 We often hear from conservative politicians

00:08:53.400 in particular,

00:08:54.380 the importance of small government,

00:08:56.300 limited government.

00:08:57.260 And now, obviously, the Libertarian Party

00:08:59.100 is going a lot farther

00:09:01.020 in terms of how much to shrink government.

00:09:03.560 But I will ask you,

00:09:04.700 do you feel that the Conservatives

00:09:06.840 are better than the Liberals,

00:09:08.420 even in a small way,

00:09:10.060 on the idea of liberty?

00:09:11.260 Or is your view that they're entirely

00:09:13.020 just two sides of the same coin?

00:09:14.580 I find that conservatism in Canada

00:09:18.360 is very much like the Republican Party

00:09:22.240 in the U.S.,

00:09:24.100 in that when they are not in power,

00:09:27.160 they speak a fairly good game.

00:09:29.660 I mean, certainly not as good

00:09:30.860 as I would like it to be.

00:09:32.260 But then you get into power,

00:09:34.060 and there's a very serious disconnect

00:09:36.280 between what they argued

00:09:37.720 while in the opposition

00:09:39.160 and what they do

00:09:41.320 once they're in power.

00:09:43.040 So my answer is,

00:09:45.100 the rhetoric,

00:09:46.300 yeah, is certainly better

00:09:47.800 than the Liberals.

00:09:49.320 Once they get into power,

00:09:50.360 I'm not sure.

00:09:50.900 How do you rank

00:09:53.100 the People's Party of Canada?

00:09:54.540 Because this is a party

00:09:55.420 that in the last election

00:09:57.080 in particular was,

00:09:58.100 I think,

00:09:58.500 taking what I would argue

00:09:59.940 are fairly libertarian positions

00:10:01.580 on vaccine mandates,

00:10:03.680 vaccine passports.

00:10:04.680 I know Maxime Bernier

00:10:05.620 has in the past been called,

00:10:07.480 I don't know if he's called himself it,

00:10:08.880 but he's been called by other people

00:10:10.080 more of a libertarian.

00:10:11.520 Has this party done

00:10:13.160 a lot of the work

00:10:14.120 that you would like to see done

00:10:15.280 in Canadian politics

00:10:16.120 on these issues?

00:10:18.640 Yes.

00:10:19.260 I mean,

00:10:19.500 Maxime does not want

00:10:22.220 to be referred to

00:10:23.160 as a libertarian.

00:10:24.000 I think he's made that clear.

00:10:26.480 I mean,

00:10:27.360 when he quit the Conservatives,

00:10:29.360 I mean,

00:10:29.500 quite frankly,

00:10:29.960 we had some talks with him

00:10:31.680 and it didn't go anywhere

00:10:33.380 in part because I think he,

00:10:35.140 again,

00:10:35.440 he does not want

00:10:36.360 to be a libertarian,

00:10:37.160 but they certainly have

00:10:38.020 many elements

00:10:40.780 of their platform

00:10:41.540 are identical to ours.

00:10:43.540 In fact,

00:10:44.180 we think sometimes

00:10:44.920 he's taken them,

00:10:47.260 which is fine.

00:10:47.820 I mean,

00:10:48.140 we're about ideas

00:10:49.480 not necessarily

00:10:50.220 being in power.

00:10:51.520 But I would simply say

00:10:53.160 I don't think

00:10:53.600 they go far enough,

00:10:54.840 but I certainly,

00:10:55.440 like when they talk about

00:10:57.200 doing away

00:10:58.340 with supply management,

00:10:59.700 you know,

00:10:59.840 we would certainly be

00:11:00.700 in favor of that,

00:11:02.760 you know,

00:11:03.000 smaller government.

00:11:04.140 But,

00:11:04.880 you know,

00:11:05.200 I think we'd still have

00:11:06.880 a very large

00:11:07.980 federal government

00:11:09.080 under a PPC

00:11:10.020 government.

00:11:12.900 What is it that you

00:11:14.000 would like to see

00:11:14.900 if you were the

00:11:15.620 prime minister?

00:11:16.300 And I know,

00:11:16.780 obviously,

00:11:17.220 you're not talking

00:11:18.200 about expecting that.

00:11:19.660 You have very realistic

00:11:20.540 expectations about

00:11:21.660 being a party of ideas.

00:11:23.200 But what would be

00:11:23.840 the top three things

00:11:24.960 that you think

00:11:25.360 would be feasible

00:11:26.200 within the Canadian

00:11:27.620 political climate

00:11:28.540 that would move things

00:11:29.400 to where you want

00:11:30.080 them to be?

00:11:32.880 Well,

00:11:33.440 I'm an actuary

00:11:35.280 by background.

00:11:37.080 So,

00:11:37.660 you know,

00:11:38.820 the fiscal side

00:11:39.680 of things,

00:11:40.220 particularly

00:11:40.660 what we refer to

00:11:43.180 as unfunded liabilities

00:11:44.520 is a massive,

00:11:46.340 massive problem,

00:11:47.140 which,

00:11:47.820 and I find this

00:11:48.540 bewildering,

00:11:49.500 but nobody talks

00:11:50.380 about this.

00:11:51.460 I have brought it up

00:11:52.480 on the campaign trail

00:11:53.520 and all I get

00:11:55.140 is people's eyes

00:11:56.340 glazing over.

00:11:57.280 But,

00:11:58.120 you know,

00:11:58.440 it amounts to

00:11:59.060 $2.7 trillion

00:12:00.180 in this country

00:12:01.280 and there are promises

00:12:02.600 made to people

00:12:03.380 that will be

00:12:04.340 very,

00:12:04.780 very difficult

00:12:05.240 to keep.

00:12:08.220 So,

00:12:08.680 I certainly,

00:12:09.940 and this is not even,

00:12:11.740 strictly speaking,

00:12:12.540 libertarian,

00:12:13.300 but it needs

00:12:14.720 to be addressed.

00:12:15.620 I mean,

00:12:16.000 from a libertarian

00:12:16.880 point of view,

00:12:17.360 one of the things

00:12:17.920 that absolutely

00:12:19.320 needs to be done

00:12:20.160 is to allow

00:12:20.920 young people

00:12:21.580 to opt out

00:12:22.840 of things

00:12:23.500 like the CPP

00:12:24.220 because the rate

00:12:25.900 of return,

00:12:26.360 the implied rate

00:12:26.960 of return

00:12:27.300 on their contributions

00:12:28.160 is abysmal.

00:12:29.540 And,

00:12:29.740 you know,

00:12:30.020 I can show you

00:12:31.260 the numbers

00:12:31.700 at some point,

00:12:32.680 but that needs

00:12:34.160 to be addressed.

00:12:34.740 I mean,

00:12:35.020 we cannot continue

00:12:35.960 to kick the can

00:12:36.900 down the road,

00:12:37.540 which is what we do.

00:12:38.780 And at some point,

00:12:40.920 like Medicare,

00:12:42.280 it's included

00:12:44.040 in that.

00:12:45.000 You know,

00:12:45.380 one of my colleagues

00:12:46.120 at the Canadian

00:12:46.980 Institute of Actuaries

00:12:48.180 in 2013

00:12:48.980 projected that

00:12:50.560 25 years

00:12:51.640 from that date,

00:12:54.360 close to 100%

00:12:55.400 of provincial

00:12:56.200 taxes

00:12:58.320 would need

00:12:59.120 to go

00:12:59.460 to pay

00:12:59.820 for healthcare.

00:13:00.280 So if you're

00:13:01.640 a big government

00:13:02.180 person,

00:13:02.940 that leaves

00:13:04.060 no money

00:13:04.540 to pay

00:13:04.880 for education,

00:13:05.700 leaves no money

00:13:06.240 to pay

00:13:06.520 for roads

00:13:07.060 and all the

00:13:07.760 things that

00:13:08.320 people want.

00:13:09.160 That needs

00:13:09.640 to be addressed.

00:13:10.340 And I see

00:13:11.960 no plan

00:13:12.620 whatsoever

00:13:13.160 on the part

00:13:14.020 of government

00:13:14.480 to address that.

00:13:16.680 Yeah,

00:13:16.960 very,

00:13:17.380 very well said.

00:13:18.420 Jacques Boudreau,

00:13:19.080 leader of the

00:13:19.760 Libertarian Party

00:13:20.720 of Canada,

00:13:21.140 we'll have to have

00:13:21.680 you back on the show

00:13:22.360 and perhaps do

00:13:23.160 a deeper dive

00:13:24.020 into the pension

00:13:25.500 question because

00:13:26.140 I think it's

00:13:26.640 a very important one.

00:13:27.760 Thanks very much

00:13:28.280 for coming on,

00:13:29.000 Jacques.

00:13:29.500 All right.

00:13:29.980 Thank you.

00:13:31.040 Thanks for listening

00:13:31.680 to The Andrew Lawton Show.

00:13:33.220 Support the program

00:13:33.920 by donating to

00:13:34.740 True North

00:13:35.160 at www.tnc.news.

Juno News - November 24, 2021

Libertarian leader wants a freedom lens for government policy

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